Caroline Bicks: My Time with Stephen King

Summary

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Woo Woo with Rachel Dratch

Episode Title: Caroline Bicks: My Time with Stephen King
Release Date: April 22, 2026
Host: Rachel Dratch
Guest: Caroline Bicks (Professor, Author, Podcast Host; University of Maine)
Co-host: Irene Bremis

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Overview

This episode dives deep into the intersection of horror literature, writing craft, and the unexplained ("woo woo"), with a focus on Caroline Bicks' unique journey as a Shakespearean scholar who became the Stephen E. King Chair in Literature. The featured topic is her new book, Monsters in the Archives, which takes listeners on her behind-the-scenes exploration of Stephen King’s creative process using his personal manuscripts, and her extraordinary experiences meeting King and becoming immersed in his world. The conversation, peppered with warmth and humor, also explores childhood fears, the psychology of horror, the woo woo side of Shakespeare, spirituality, tarot, and psychic experiences.

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Key Topics & Discussion Points

1. Caroline Bicks’ Journey from Shakespeare to Stephen King (03:13–07:31)

• Caroline was a tenured Shakespeare professor at Boston College before applying for the Stephen E. King Chair at the University of Maine.

• Despite the Stephen King connection, she was told not to expect to meet him—but he eventually called her personally, leading to a professional relationship.

• Quote:
  “Four years in, I get a call at home… it’s Stephen King. I’m like, actually, he was like, ‘it’s Steve King.’ I’m like, oh, hey, Steve.” (06:32 – Bicks)

• Her access: Spent a year in King’s newly established archives reading drafts of the five King books that most frightened her as a child.

2. Early Encounters with Stephen King & The Power of Childhood Fears (07:42–11:41)

• Her introduction to King was the Night Shift short story collection, specifically The Boogeyman.

• The visceral impact of King’s stories on young readers—her own ongoing fear of open closets stemming from The Boogeyman.

• Discussion of Carrie as a dark mirror for adolescent anxieties, especially regarding puberty and bullying:

  • “It’s the anti-Goddess Blue Margaret. …The worst period story ever.” (09:14 – Bicks)

3. King’s Lasting Appeal: More Than Just Monsters (09:59–10:38)

• His stories endure because they tap into universal fears: grief, loss, isolation—not simply horror for its own sake.
• Irene lauds King’s ability to “weaponize” spaces and small-town psychology.

4. Meeting Stephen King and His Generosity (14:30–18:30)

• Caroline’s nervous but ultimately “magic” first meeting—King came to campus to speak to English majors, engaging with local students about their shared Main roots.
• Revelations about King’s and Tabitha’s philanthropy.

5. Exploring the Archives: King’s Writing Process & Manuscript Insights (19:31–23:50)

• The origin of Caroline’s research: started re-reading Pet Sematary (the same edition as her youth), noticing it mirrored her own life after moving to Maine—a “woo woo” moment.

• The primary source materials: Sticky notes, handwritten revisions, heated (yet humorous) defense of word choices (“clitter” vs. “clatter”).

  • Quote:
    “…He’s so gracious and funny in his responses to the copy editor. He’s not an asshole, but he’s like, ‘No, this word matters.’ Like the word clitter, which sounds obscene... I want to use clitter because it’s soft and it’s ghostly, you know.” (21:06 – Bicks)

• King’s attention to the full sensory experience and sound of words; synesthetic and immersive approach.

6. Horror as Embodied Experience & The Psychology of Fear (23:50–25:40)

• “Horror” comes from the Latin for “bristle,” highlighting its physical, embodied quality.
• Caroline held the Boogeyman’s first draft and probed King’s inspiration: his own anxieties as a young parent (crib death), compared to childhood fears.
• Emotional layers: Pet Sematary as the “darkest” King, a meditation on parental grief; The Shining as a novel about generational trauma and loss (26:04–27:55).

7. The Influence of Shakespeare and Literary Intersections (27:56–33:13)

• The Shining’s original draft, called The Shine, was formatted as a Shakespearean play—a “super woo woo” convergence for a Shakespeare scholar.
• The impact of the Kubrick film on cultural memory of The Shining (e.g., “All work and no play…” is not from the novel).

8. Personal and Literary Woo Woo: Childhood Ghosts and Intuitive Shutting Out (33:18–36:31)

• Caroline’s own childhood brush with unexplained phenomena: a recurring ghostly presence she eventually “shut out”—paralleling The Shining’s Danny and his “Tony” visions.
  • Quote:
    “I used to have this ghost… I was terrified of it... the ghost would always say, like, I am your— and then I would just shut it off because I got so scared. And then it just stopped coming.” (35:18 – Bicks)

9. Carrie, Bullying, and the Shakespeare Connection (36:16–40:51)

• King’s own ambivalence about Carrie, but Caroline convinced him to revisit it, drawing out parallels between its ending and Macbeth’s soliloquy (nihilism, the “candle” motif).
• Her research unearthed drastic differences in King’s early drafts: Carrie as an alien, destruction for its own sake, later changed for greater empathy and depth.

10. Teaching Horror & Ghost Stories in Academia (49:59–53:36)

• Caroline’s course, American Ghost Stories, included King, Shirley Jackson, Toni Morrison, Celeste Ng, Louise Erdrich, and Edgar Allan Poe.
• Ghost stories as a multicultural tradition and vehicles for communal and generational memory.

11. Woo Woo Practices: Tarot, Spirit Guides, & Psychic Experiences (60:22–69:58)

• Caroline’s open approach to spirituality, psychic readings—including a pivotal LA psychic who predicted major life events, including a “Steve” of great importance, years before meeting King.

• Deep affinity for tarot: “For me, it’s the cards… every day, I pull a tarot card. …I get that same beautiful feeling of, like, my body just tingling, and I’m like, this is real.” (66:53 – Bicks)

  • She pulled the Eight of Wands the day of the recording—a card of creativity and forward movement.

• Discussion of body intuition (“your little helper”), embodiment, and psychosomatic wisdom rooted in both daily life and the experience of horror in literature.

12. Synchronicity, Creative Origins, and Stephen King’s Dreams (57:29–58:04 & 43:47–45:51)

• The woo woo origins of The Shining: King’s nightmare at the Stanley Hotel gave birth to the plot.
• The intersection between King’s depiction of psychic or supernatural phenomena and Shakespeare’s exploration of “horrible imaginings.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On studying King’s drafts:
  “I can’t believe I got to hold the first draft page. I was like—ah!” (24:56 – Bicks)

• On King’s language:
  “Say it out loud, and you’ll see, right? …books are a uniquely portable magic.” (22:49–52 – Bicks)

• On the layered emotional resonance of King’s stories:
  “These stories, they aren’t about the monsters… They’re about grief and loss, the fear of loss.” (26:16 – Bicks)

• On the shared creative ground between King and Shakespeare:
  “The ending of Carrie is a rewrite of Macbeth… all of his prose at that ending, it’s so Macbeth.” (39:21–40:45 – Bicks)

• On intuition and spiritual openness:
  “Woo woo is pragmatic… the whole thing about embodiment… all of our deepest emotions are going to be registered in our bodies.” (65:19–65:31 – Bicks)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:13 – Caroline Bicks’ journey to the Stephen King Chair (and meeting King)
• 07:42 – Bicks’ first King book and childhood fears
• 09:43 – The horror of puberty in Carrie and universal themes in King
• 14:30 – First meeting with King and student experiences
• 19:31 – Access to archives and King’s writing process
• 21:06 – King defending his word choices; nuance in language
• 23:50 – Embodied horror and the etymology of “horror”
• 24:56 – Handling first draft of The Boogeyman; horror as parental anxiety
• 26:16 – Pet Sematary’s “unbearable” grief and King’s emotional depths
• 27:56 – The Shakespearean structure of King’s drafts
• 33:18 – Personal woo woo: Bicks’ childhood ghost story
• 36:16 – On King’s complicated feelings about Carrie
• 39:21 – Discovery: Carrie’s revised ending as Macbeth homage
• 43:47 – Literary connections: Carrie, girlhood, and "mental puberty"
• 49:59 – Teaching ghost stories and horror in academia
• 60:22 – Psychic experiences, tarot, and everyday woo woo rituals
• 66:53 – Bicks on tarot as main spiritual practice
• 69:45 – Tarot and academic research: Letting the cards (and manuscripts) “speak”

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Closing Highlights & Resources

• Monsters in the Archives is out April 21, with an audiobook read by Caroline Bicks herself.
• Bicks credits her rapport and trust with King to her focus on literary craft, not fandom.
• King himself praised Monsters in the Archives as “the best book about his process” he’s ever read (48:14).
• Caroline plugs a launch event (April 23, Twisted Spine, Brooklyn) and her podcast Everyday Shakespeare with Michelle Ephraim.
• Caroline’s academic path and spiritual practices reinforce the episode’s central theme: openness—to literature, to emotion, to intuition, and to the unexplained.

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Key Takeaways

• King’s stories resonate deeply because they are, at their core, about human vulnerability and existential fear, not just the supernatural.
• Language matters—every word, every syllable is chosen for visceral effect, a practice both Stephen King and Shakespeare share.
• The “woo woo” isn’t just supernatural; it’s the experience of being open—to intuition, to spirits, to inspiration, and to the unexpected connections between art, academia, and life.

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Listen to find inspiration on craft, validation for being woo woo, and insight into why King’s stories (like Shakespeare’s) endure.

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Transcript

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

Welcome to Woo Woo with Rachel Dratch, the podcast that explores the unexplained with humor and curiosity. Hello and welcome to Woo Woo with Rachel Dratch here with My dear friend. So happy to see her today. Irene Bremes. Hi, Irene.

[C]

Hi, Rachie.

[A]

Ooh, I'm Rachie.

[C]

You're Rachie because I miss you so much, sweetie.

[A]

Okay, Rachi and sweetie. And we are so happy to be joined by a very interesting guest today. Irene is especially excited today. I am Irene, and I'm generally excited. But we have professor, author, and podcast host herself, Caroline Bix, on the show. Hi, Caroline. Hi.

[B]

Thanks for having me. I'm so excited.

[A]

So Caroline is a scholar on many topics. First of all, she's a professor of Shakespeare, primarily at University of Maine. Right. But also she has a new book coming out all about Stephen King, and it's called Monsters in the Archives. And she got to take a deep dive on the archival materials of Stephen King, some of his first drafts, rough drafts. She got to meet him and take a sort of a scholar's journey with him. They're both up there in Maine. So we're talking largely about her dad.

[B]

Somewhere up there.

[A]

Somewhere up there in Maine. We'll find out the particulars.

[B]

Pass Portland. That's all you need to know. Everyone's like, I know Portland. I'm like, yeah, keep going, like two

[A]

and a half hours. And she's here to talk about her new book, Monsters in the Archives. And we're all excited to talk about that also, because Irene is naturally a huge Stephen King fan. She loves horror, but she loves Stephen King. She knows a lot more about him than I do, actually. So she might be leading the charge on a lot of those and a

[C]

lot of ADD all over the place. Yes.

[A]

But anyway, Caroline, we're so happy to have you here. And so we're gonna get into Stephen King, horror fiction, and even a little bit of. Maybe I'm gonna go into some woo woo of Shakespeare because we've got a Shakespearean scholar here. So, Caroline, where do we begin? Your book is available April 21. If you're a Stephen King fan, you are gonna wanna take a dive into Monsters in the Archives because it is the nitty gritty of his whole process. Each chapter is a deep dive into many of his books. And we're gonna get all into it. So, Caroline. Oh, and also, I'm just blurting. Blurting it all out now. But also, you had. I love that you shared some of your childhood experiences, your experiences with being scared as a kid of, you know, what's in the closet and under the bed and all that. And even a ghost sighting yourself.

[B]

And even a ghost. I mean, this whole Project. This whole journey, this whole thing is so cuckoo.

[A]

Woo woo.

[B]

Like how I ended up in rural Maine. It's like how I spent my summer vacation. But it's like how I spent my 50s. Now. It's like. So I was a tenured professor of Shakespeare at Boston College. I had spent 15 years there on the faculty. I could have just coasted my way to retirement there. But this job came up. It's the Stephen E. King Chair in Literature at the University of Maine. So I was like, well, I love Stephen King. I'm a fan girl for him and I love Shakespeare. And they were looking for a Shakespearean. So I was like, sign me up. So I tried out for the job. I mean, try it out as if it's like an audition that would be funny if you're like, and now here's my comic monologue, right? And so it was because I got this position that, you know, it wasn't till four years in. Cause they were all like, don't think you're going to meet him. You're not gonna meet Stephen King. I'm like, all right, whatever, that's cool. Like, this is a great job. I'm happy to move here and have his name attached to me, whatever. And then four years in, I get a call at home, he's like, hey, it's Stephen King. I'm like, actually, he was like, it's Steve King. I'm like, oh, hey Steve.

[A]

Hi.

[C]

Hi.

[B]

Anyway, so that is. Began a really nice working relationship. And because of that, I felt like I could ask him and Tabitha because all of his manuscripts were recently collected and attached to the back of their home in Bangor, which I don't know if you've seen it. If you haven't been there, you should see it.

[A]

Only the picture.

[B]

It's a tourist site all the time. Anyway, they had just put together a climate controlled space for all these really valuable manuscripts and they hadn't let anyone in yet. And I was like, well, if I'm not meant to be the person in there, then I don't know who is. So I was like. I asked them if I could spend my sabbatical year in there. They said yes. Unbelievable. I'm so grateful. And I got to spend a year just reading those five drafts of the five books that had scared me the most when I was a kid. And that was really all I knew was that I just wanted to go in there and see how he'd crafted it, how he'd done it, why they were still sticking in my head. You know, 40 years later.

[A]

Right. And so just for starters. Well, actually, let's take it back to when you were a kid and you talk about your first intro to a Stephen King book.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, this is like, you gotta go back to the 70s when nobody cares what you're doing. Like, you're just, like, free ranging. And so I was in the. Most of my encounters with Stephen King books were. Because my older siblings just had them lying around. I was. But the first one was the public library here in Maine, where we used to come in the summer. Castine's Public Library. And I saw the COVID of Night Shift, and it was. I don't know if you remember it, but it's the one with Irene Mike, because she's a fan. Like, with the gauze hand with the eyes on it, like, staring out at you. And I was like, oh, what's that? And I took it, and then I started reading it. And it's a collection of 20 of his short stories. It's his first collection of short stories. It came out originally in 1978. I found it in 1979 when it was in its paperback version. And the sixth story in it is the Boogeyman, which is hands down, in my opinion, like, rather scary. Maybe it's because I read it when I was 12, but I was like, what is this? And I still can't sleep next to an open closet because of that story. So that was my first encounter.

[A]

And then. Did you seek out his books after that?

[B]

Yeah, so then I just started devouring them. I clearly hadn't learned my lesson, so I was like, give me more. And then, you know, and part of it, again, was my age, you know, So I was like. Then the next one was Carrie, and that was in my school library.

[C]

So the opposite of. Are you there, God? It's me, Margaret, by the way.

[B]

100%.

[C]

100%.

[B]

It's like, yes. Hey, guess what?

[A]

You're gonna get your period in the shower. Everyone's gonna be looking, and you're not

[B]

gonna know what it is. And your mother's gonna shove you in a closet because of it and tell you you're a whore. I mean, it's like the exact. The worst period story ever.

[A]

You're right.

[B]

It's the Anti Goddess Blue Margaret. So that's. And, like, I was in the seventh grade. I was waiting for my period, you know, and I was like, so that was a whole other horror. Then it was like the Shining and Salem's Lot and then Pet Sematary. So those are the five that I ended up focusing on. Yeah.

[C]

Ironically, though, once you did menstruate. When I started menstruating, I hate to circle back to that, but then it was like apocalyptic and Armageddon.

[B]

Right.

[C]

So there was so much visceral psychology to everything he wrote. Like, I could be here for hours and days on end.

[B]

That's what.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. That's why his stories endure is because it's not about the monsters. It's about, like, he just taps in his deepest fears that we're all gonna face. Right?

[C]

We're all gonna face.

[B]

Not everyone's getting their period, but, you know, it's like, everyone's gonna worry maybe about am I gonna get to go to the prom? Or, like, do people like me? You know?

[C]

Right. It's either gonna be something like that or the way he weaponizes, like, just. And how he goes. I love his tweets for a very specific reason, you know, because you could just see everything that's in his psychology and how he uses spaces to become vilifies them and weaponizes them, you know, it's incredible.

[B]

Yeah. But he also loves them. Like, that's the thing. Because he's a main bred, like, born. I mean, so one of my favorite conversations I had with him when I was working on the book, and I was so grateful. I was so lucky. I was like, what is. I can't believe this is happening. First of all, like, what? He's just gonna talk to me, Me and Steve. I can't talk to Shakespeare, but I can talk to Stephen King. I can be like, hey, what were you thinking when you decided to do this? Or what? But anyway, one of my favorite conversations was about his hometown that he moved to when he was 11 of Durham, Maine, which is what Salem's Lot is based on. And he hadn't. You know, his father had left the family when he was 2, and so they had moved all around the country. It really wasn't till he was 11 that he really put down roots in Maine. And he was so in love with that town. He was telling me how much he fell in love with Dur. And I went and saw Derm, and I was like, that's a scary ass town. Like, so it's like he loves it, but he also hated it at first, you know, and you can feel that in Salem's Lot. Like, it's like, ooh, I get it.

[A]

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[B]

So, you know, I was obviously scared because I'm a shy person. I'm like, oh, and he's so larger than life. But he really put me at ease. So when we had that phone call and I was like, oh, okay. I was like, okay. Would you be willing to come to campus? We had just experienced Covid. We'd gotten through our Covid year of teaching. Everything sucked. And I was like, these students, because he's an alum of the University of Maine and of our English department. So I said, would you be willing to come and talk to our English majors about your writing? Because they will love would be amazing. And he was like, sure, I'll come two days in a row. I'm like, what? So, you know, I couldn't tell anyone on campus because it was supposed to be super secret. Like, he didn't want to have any media or upper admin involved. So I was like, okay. So that was a scary couple months just planning his visit. Cause I'm a control freak. Like, I like to plan for all the worst case scenarios. I was like, there were so many, I couldn't even. Yeah, so I planned it all. It all went beautifully. He shows up and then I'm like, do you want me to pick you up from your house? Cause I don't know if you still know. It'd been a long time since he'd come to campus and. And he was like, no, it's all right. You can just. I'll just drive myself and you can just hop in my car and show me where to park. So I'm like, ah, what? Okay. So he shows up and he gets out of his car and he just immediately puts me at ease. I mean, he's like huge. He's like 6 foot 3. I'm like 5 foot 2. But we, like sat down. He just started asking me what I thought about humane, was I happy? How were the students? And then it was magic. He went into the classroom and it was like he was so generous and open about talking with his, you know, answering all their questions. And their eyes were just lighting up over their masks, you know, it was just magic. And so that really put me at ease. And I realized this guy is such a mensch. Like, he's so. Just so generous. So that by the end of the day one, I felt comfortable enough that it was going to be okay.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

And then. Sorry, my dog is barking one second.

[C]

Ruffles, Ruffles, Ruffles. Ruffles is a Pisces, too.

[B]

Oh, that's also a Pisces.

[A]

Okay, wait, I did have a question. Oh. So when he walks into class.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do the students have any inkling that Stephen. Like, was it like, we have a special guest or just.

[B]

I had to plan this, like, months in advance, so I had to swear the students secrecy. I want to make sure they had read the book because I asked them to talk about Lyc's story because that was one of his that I knew was dearest to his heart, and he was developing it into the Apple series at that point. So all the students had to get copies of Lecy's story, read it.

[A]

But they didn't know he was coming.

[B]

Oh, yeah. No, they knew he was coming. So. No, it was all, oh, yeah.

[A]

No, this was like, maybe like, you're sitting.

[B]

No, no. I never could have gotten them to come otherwise and read a book. Are you kidding?

[A]

No.

[B]

Good point.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You wouldn't want to miss this.

[B]

The students are great, but I wouldn't want to be, like, just banking on them maybe deciding that they've got time to come to something.

[A]

Good point. Okay. Okay. So. Oh, that's amazing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So. And so then he talked to them. Did he look over any of their writing or anything? Or was it like that?

[B]

No, it was just straight up Q and A, you know, amazing. I mean, there were some great exchanges, though, because he is such a hometown guy, you know, And a lot of our umaine students are kids from Maine, you know, and his wife, Tabitha, he met her at umaine. She was also an English major, and she's a prolific writer in her own right. You know, she's from Old Town Maine, which is the town right next to Orono, where our campus is. And, like, one of the students was describing how much it meant to her that, you know, because they're also incredibly generous, the Kings. Like, they have a foundation, and they support everything from fire departments in Maine to libraries to schools. And anyway, so the student was just thanking them for saving, like, the roof in her old town public library. And he was just like. So he lit up, you know, I was like, right. Oh, my gosh. It just felt like this wonderful, magical, you know, like, coming home for him, you know? Cause, again, he hadn't been on campus for a long time.

[A]

And so then you get access to all of his materials and everything. Do you want to talk? I mean, I don't know how much you want to talk about or, like, save for the book, for people to Read. So that's okay.

[B]

I mean, like, as this is happening, too, it just feels like, what is this train that's, like, leaving the station that I'm on, that I feel like I'm just being brought along on this journey? Because once I met him, and then the kismet of having a year and the archives being gathered for the first time, and my asking him and them saying yes, I was like, okay, I don't know what's happening, but I'm supposed to be doing this for sure. So it was the night before I was going into the archives for the first day, and I had no idea where I was gonna start. I mean, I knew the five books I was gonna do, but I had no idea what was in there, what was in the archives, or which book I was gonna start with. But I had just found a copy of Pet Sematary, the same edition I'd read in 1983, which has, like, Irene's nodding. She knows. It's like Church the Cat's, like, demonic eyes on it.

[C]

And I was Tommyknockers. Also demonic eyes.

[B]

Oh, also Tommyknockers. Yeah, It's a fave. So I just started reading it. I was like, well, I don't know. I'll just start reading this the night before. And I'm, like, in bed. I'm, like, starting to read it. And then it occurs to me as I'm reading it now, I hadn't read it in 40 years. I was like, oh, my God, I am Louis Creed. Because Louis Creed had just moved from a city with his family of four to take a job at the University of Maine, which had completely passed over me when I was reading it in 1983. I was like, oh, my God. Then I realized he's living on the same road that I take when I drive to work, and that the Kings had been renting a house on that same road. When Stephen King wrote Pet Sematary, like, he'd been inspired to write it on that very road that I take to work. And I was like, okay, well, this is where I'm starting. And so that was my first true. Woo.

[A]

Woo.

[B]

Like, what is happening? And I just. So, day one, I went to the archives. I asked to see the Pet Sematary manuscripts. And it was like this treasure trove of his sticky notes. I can't even imagine. Cause it's the seven. He actually wrote the first draft in 1978, and it's still sticky notes. Like, there's no laptops or Wang word processors. Wow. I mean, the Final draft, he writes on a Wang word processor in 1982. But so it's got his handwritten notes to the copy editor. As the copy editor is circling words like, is this the word you meant? And he's like, yeah, that's the word I meant. He's like. And this is why. I mean, he's so gracious and funny in his responses to the copy editor. He's not an asshole, but he's like, no, this word matters. Like the word clitter, which sounds obscene.

[C]

Matters.

[B]

Matters. Like, I don't want to use clatter. I want to use clitter. Because it's soft and it's ghostly, you know. So he's thinking about word sounds.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. You know, and also, you know, I was reading, like, the word ratley, too. You know, there was a circle with ratley, and it was like, why would you. You know, because he didn't want it to sound clinical. He wanted to evoke an emotion. And I think that's what it does. He evokes that visceral, like, fear, you know, there's like. For example, as. As a storyteller, you have to tell me, as a movie maker, you have to show me so. So words open up this entire world. So I love that he, like, defended his words because it's so easy to just give up, because this is, you know, somebody can make you. Can, you know, undermine you or make you feel like, no, you need to use this word. And he really defended his words.

[B]

Right, Right. And he's so. It's very, like, synesthesic, you know, like, he combines all the senses, which became clear that first day. Like, my favorite comment he wrote. He's also so fricking well read and literate, which, you know, I knew. But, like, seeing it in the notes, like, he's quoting Ralph Waldo Emerson. As I'm like. In his response, I'm like, this is hilarious. And he's quoting, like, you know, Captain Kirk and all. You know, it's just. It's amazing. But there was a moment where the copy editor had, like, whited out. He had written S. King had written S H U hyphen. U hyphen. U h. And he's describing, Rachel and Lewis are having a fight, and Rachel is. Is upset, and she goes, you're sh. Shouting, wow. And the copy editor sort of brought it down to, like, sh. And he's like, no, no. He sort of says, say it out loud. You'll see.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And I love that because I'm like,

[C]

I love it, too.

[B]

Say it out loud and you'll see, right. It's like. Cause reading, of course that's why I wanted to look at the language, not the movies. Although I talked a little bit about the movies. It's like. Cause it's about, it's this experience in your imagination that where you're meeting the writer, right. With you know, and he writes about this. That books are a uniquely portable magic and that it's where authors and readers come together in this imaginative space. And for him it's like full bodied. All of the sensory, you know, all of the senses.

[C]

And also this also broadens your audience. That's why seven year old girl can read his book and an adult can read his book.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And it has different, you know, it, it really. Everybody has their moments where they're just tapping into something that he's saying at different points in their lives. But because he uses these very unique specific words that aren't, you know, so over a seven year old's head, you know, they're not, they're not so, you know, they're embodied. It's like they're embodied in your body.

[B]

Right. I mean that's so cool. Because the word horror itself, the etymology is horre. It's from a Latin word that means to like bristle, have your hair stand on end. And I love that because it's like. Right. Horror is an embodied experience. It's not something that you just comes at you into your eyes and then into your brain. It's like it's a full. You feel it in your nerves, right? In your scars. Absolutely. Yeah. Your stomach.

[C]

And with a child, like when you were reading it as a seven year old, as a latchkey key, reading books she shouldn't be reading, by the way, from the 70s.

[B]

Were you reading it when you're seven? I was 12. Oh please.

[C]

I was watching the Exorcist too.

[B]

Who wasn't? And I was in the movie theater watching Jaws. Probably had a cigarette. I mean like. Yeah.

[C]

And I feel like these fears really stay with you because like if you're dealing with like what you were dealing with, you said like childhood trauma with bedtime, you know, like all these crazy fears that children have or you're an adult and you're reading this book and you're dealing with a certain kind of feel, it's going to trigger you or it's going to resonate with you.

[B]

That's so right. You're absolutely right. And that was really interesting when I asked him about the Boogeyman because of course I had to ask him about the Boogeyman. And I can't believe I got to hold the first draft page. I was like, ah. And I said, what were you thinking when you wrote the Boogeyman? Which he hates that question, but I had to ask that for this one. And after a couple back and forth, he did say, look, I was. Because he and Tabitha had two very small children at that point, even though he was only 25. And he said, I was really worried about crib death. And I thought, oh, okay. So he's coming at it from the perspective, like you're saying, right. You hit it at different times in your life, you're gonna have a different fear that it's evoking. And for me, I wasn't worried about my children. I was just worried about being a little kid.

[C]

Right, exactly. And wow, that's so deep. You know, And I felt like Pet Sematary kind of had that going on. The fear of losing a child.

[B]

Oh, my God. That is grief to the max. Yeah. I mean, that one is the one. He wrote a draft in 1978, put it in a drawer, and was like, this is too horrible to see the light of day. I can't let this get published. And he only does it to get out of his double day contract, like, four years later.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

But you're right, that's like the dark, deepest grief loss, you know, that's one of the things I really came to understand reading through all of these drafts. I was like, oh, my gosh, these stories, they aren't about the monsters.

[C]

Exactly, exactly.

[B]

They're about grief and loss, the fear of loss.

[C]

It's so great that you did this, but, like, your book is amazing. Seriously.

[B]

Thank you so much.

[C]

It's such important work because it's so much bigger than just even Stephen King. It's about, you know, it's. It really is important. Honestly, I could be here for days and days talking about it, because it's not just about the monsters. It's not just about a zombie coming back from the death. It's a. It's about, like those deep seated fears that we have about, like, losing a child or losing your spouse or, you know, even, like in the Shining, you know, like the feeling of isolation, the feeling of dread, the feeling of loss, the feeling of writer's block.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[C]

Stuck.

[B]

Yeah. Losing your ideals, losing your dreams. I mean, there's so many things that are lost in that story that it's. I mean, I thought I went in there dreading the woman in room 217, which I still do. I mean, she's freaking terrifying. But by the end I was like, just. I realized that this was a book about intergenerational trauma in a way that I hadn't realized when I read it when I was a kid after talking to him. And also, that's one of the great fun discoveries that I made in that book in my research was getting to read that first draft of the Shining called the Shine where Wendy's name is Jenny. I mean, it's very different, has a different ending, but it's like it's a Shakespearean tragedy. He's written it with Roman numeral acts and scene divisions. That's where the Shakespeare piece and the Stephen King piece came together in this super woo woo way. When I was sitting in the archives, I was like, this is cuckoo.

[A]

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[C]

You know, one of the scariest things with the Shining. For me, it's one of my favorite Stephen King books. But one of the scariest things is the repetition of all work and all play over and over and over and over and over and over again. Because it's so much deeper than just repetition. It's repetition is insanity. Insanity is the literal definition of hell. When you are stuck, you are alone. You're literally separated from everything around you and you're in a loop and you can't get out of it. It's so deep.

[B]

It is so deep. And I will say, just because I have to say this. So that's not in the book. It's in the Kubrick film. They'll all work and no play. So that's an interesting example of a film can be really powerful.

[C]

See, I didn't look at that.

[B]

No. But that's because I assumed it was there too. Like it wasn't till I went back in. Because it is. So that film has such a cultural reach, right, That I think people think people don't know that Jack doesn't freeze in the maze or that Jack, you know, those are Kubrick's changes. But, but that said, I think that's actually very true to the book. That whole loop and the repetition, all work, no play. I mean, that's clearly did capture what I think King was trying to capture in the book was that idea of you get in a word loop. And in Danny's case, it's redrum. Redrum for me, actually the biggest terror of that book, which I taught for the first time this fall. Unbelievably, King let me bring my students to his house in Bangor and he talked to them for an hour about the Shining. And I was like, what? Stop now. Anyway, it was unbelievable, but it was the first time I'd taught the Shining. And what really hit me, and the students were bringing this up too, is like, Danny doesn't know how to read. Like, he's trying so desperately to read, to learn how to read. Do you remember that he's five and he's trying to teach himself how to read. I'm like, oh. King captures that like, terror of being not yet literate.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Or not able to perceive things for yourself because Literally, reading is gonna save his life.

[C]

Right.

[B]

And save his mother's life. And so for me, I like, oh my God. He captured that horror, which is the same horror of the boogeyman. It's like these two year old kids who can't quite yet tell their mommies and daddy what's in the closet. They're just like pointing at it and screaming.

[C]

Right.

[B]

It's like he gets it. He captures. He harnesses that horror of being at an age where you can't yet save yourself. Wow.

[C]

The vulnerabilities, the vulnerability.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

That's true.

[B]

Which we never lose. Right.

[C]

Vulnerable.

[B]

It just takes a different shape as we get older. Yeah.

[C]

Oh, man.

[A]

Within Stephen King and your interactions with him and everything. Yeah. What else would you want to discuss around that?

[B]

So definitely when I went back to reread the Shining, which I hadn't done since I was probably in getting ready for this, doing the research on it, I actually had the exact copy I had read at that time. I still had that same one silver paperback. It's the yellow with the Kubrick.

[A]

My parents had that on the shelf.

[B]

It's based on the Kubrick film poster.

[A]

Yes. Okay.

[B]

And there is a silver version. Yeah, okay. But it has like the photo inserts from the Kubrick film, like in the middle of it. But I hadn't seen the film when I read it the first time, but when I was reading it again, there was this moment where like, Tony, I knew Tony was a factor in the Shining. I remembered that. That Tony's like this voice that comes to Danny or sometimes he sees Tony. And Tony's always trying to warn him of things like Tony's a good supernatural woo woo thing. But there's a point where Danny decides he's gonna shut off Tony because he's decided he wants to make his daddy happy. And he knows that daddy wants to, in that loop, finish his play. He's actually writing a play in the book. And he doesn't wanna make them leave the mountain and leave the Overlook. So he's like not gonna listen to Tony. And I was it just like all of a sudden I was like, oh my gosh. I mean. Cause I used to have this ghost that would come to me when I was 5ish, 6ish. I think a lot of people, you know, if they access their memories, would remember probably. We know that kids that age are open to those kind. But I was terrified of it. And I remember it would keep coming. I couldn't see it, but I could hear it, you know? And it always had the same kind of warning, like, sound of these, gong, gong, you know, and it was always coming when I was lying in bed and, you know, and I shared a bedroom with my sister. So it's not like. I don't think this was a memory of a trauma happening to me. You know, it was like there was, because she was there, too, but she just never heard this ghost, right? And the ghost would always say, like, I am your. And then I would just shut it off because I want to hear it. I got so scared. And then it just stopped coming. And it was. When I read the Shining again, I was like, oh, my God. I know, right? You shut it out because you don't want to know. You don't want to hear it, even if it doesn't mean you any ill. I was too scared, and I kind of regret it. And I've tried over the years to try to reconnect in some way to be like, hey, can you give me a second chance?

[C]

I'm ready. I'm ready now.

[B]

I've got my crystal. But, you know, I think you kind of get a one shot. I don't know. I don't know what to make of it. I don't know if you all have had that kind of an experience, but it's.

[A]

Was that something you saw or just heard?

[B]

I just heard it, but sometimes I would, like, sort of see a little bit of, like, mist. It felt like. Like some little. Like something was gonna start. But again, I got so scared, I just shut it off. I shut it down. And then it stopped coming. So I don't know what it was trying to tell me.

[C]

They could have just been saying, you're going to write a book. Don't let anybody. Don't.

[B]

Listen, when that job comes up, don't let people tell you you're crazy for leaving Boston to go to Maine.

[C]

Exactly. Don't let anybody block your dream.

[A]

That would have been amazing.

[C]

You cracked me up. One of the things that I loved about you, Caroline, when you were with Stephen King, is the fact that he didn't really care for Carrie, which is literally one of, like, he's not so in love with Carrie anymore. Okay.

[B]

He never really was.

[C]

Yeah, he never really was. But to me, it's so. It was so ahead of its time in terms of, like, bullying, in terms of, like, what's happening with school shootings, in terms about, you know, I don't want to get too crazy, but systemic misogyny and.

[B]

No, I mean, this is. I mean, a lot of people wrote really eloquently about this when it had its 50th anniversary.

[C]

So it's crazy. But then when you. You said to him, you said, you should go back and read it. And then, I love Caroline. I love you for doing that. I love when you said, you know. And I was like, it's like telling, you know, Shakespeare to go back and read. But the reality is. And then you're like, but I'm. I'm proud of myself for, like, allowing that process to happen, because then it led to different places that, like. I love that you did that.

[B]

I love you so much.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because that was, like a really. That was the last conversation I had with him. That was an interview for the book. You know, And I was like. I had a whole set of questions. And, you know, I'd gotten to know him over that. It really, by that point, was like a year and a half, two years of my working on the book. So I felt comfortable asking him questions. At the same time, I was nervous. Like, I still was always a little nervous, because even though he's incredibly generous and never was like, you're wrong. You can't say that. Or that's. You know. Cause he was so. He's so generous to other writers that he was like, sure, go ahead, write that. As long as I wasn't slandering him or anything. He was very open to how I was interpreting what I was seeing in the manuscripts. But I'm still. I'm a really shy person. It's not easy for me to have these conversations. So I was like, okay. I really wanted to ask him about Carrie and about. Cause I knew he had. He's on the record saying he just doesn't think it's a good book. He just doesn't. He thinks it was the work of a young man who didn't know what he was doing or was trying to be something that he wasn't yet.

[C]

Yeah, that's what he said. Yeah.

[B]

Because it was. He was, like, 24. I mean, you know, Tabby's the one who was like, I can teach you about the teenage girls. Like, if you're worried that you don't know about teenage girls, I'll teach you about the teenage girls. But I was really nervous to be like. Cause I had just. You know. One of the things I really had explored, and I really felt intuitively that I was right about this, was that the ending of Carrie is a rewrite of Macbeth, is a rewrite of Macbeth's final speech, where he's like, tomorrow and tomorrow. And tomorrow. And he's just like. It's nihilistic. And it's about what happens when you die. And it's like nothing. Like, it's basically like life is an idiot, a poor player, right? Just spouting off crap, signifying nothing. And then also there's that image of a candle. Like, you know, it's just a candle lighting. It's lighting you to dusty death, right? That. This whole image of death. And then when I was looking through how he changed the ending of Carrie, which was really significant. I mean, the first draft of Carrie,

[C]

I didn't know that.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Until I read, first of all, Carrie was like an alien in the early draft.

[C]

She was totally Armageddon.

[B]

Like, you said, she's Armageddon. I mean, he used that word. I mean, like, she's like an alien bent on destroying the world. Like, you don't feel badly for her at the end. But by the end, by the time he revised her for publication, you know, the Carrie we all know, like, the final scene, I don't know if you remember when sue is, like, seeing her dying. And in the original version, Carrie's head has become like this giant alien brain sack and it, like, explodes. And so sue just goes running away and she's just terrified and she's like, I'm never gonna forget that. This is horrible. So horror is like this alien brain sack exploding. Wow. But when he revises it, the horror is that she has to experience death with Carrie. Like, she mind melds with Carrie and Carrie, like, and she has to experience what it feels like to die. And what she sees is like, this candle going down this corridor and then just going out into nothing. And all of his prose at that ending, it's so Macbeth. And that was something I was confident he wouldn't have remembered or been tuned into because he hadn't reread Carrie, you know? And that's when I was like, you should probably reread. I really think you should reread. Because the ending is Macbeth. And that again, I was like, who am I to say that?

[A]

Like, Jesus.

[B]

But you know what? We ended up having a great conversation about it.

[C]

I love it.

[B]

And then that woo woo moment that happened, I don't wanna give away. At the very end of the book, in the end of that conversation, something took over and it was like Shakespeare and Stephen King and me, like, for like, this brief moment, had just, like, gone into some kind of portal together. Like, it was. You know, I don't use woo woo lightly. Like, I actually do believe these things do happen sometimes and you go to pay attention to them. And that was one of those moments.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

My other kind of woo woo moment around this book and this whole part of my journey as an academic was that when I was getting ready for my final job interview for this position, which meant coming to Campus giving a job talk. I was working on a book at the time called Cognition and Girlhood in Shakespeare's World. Like, I had been studying how girls brains worked or how people believed girls brains worked in Shakespeare's day. I'd been doing that research for, like, eight years, and I just sort of finished the book. And I was like, you know what? Maybe I should throw in a little Stephen King for the job talk, even though that's not a requirement that you're a Stephen King specialist. I'll just, like, throw it in. And I was like, I think Carrie might be a good place to go. Like, I hadn't read Carrie in 40 years, where I was like, I'm pretty sure there's some cool stuff about teenage girls and brains in that. And I open up the book. Like, I literally take it off the shelf because I still had it open. The book on the first page it falls to is where he describes Carrie coming home after the horrible menstruation incident. And her brain is starting to flex. Like she's starting to have her telepathic powers come to life and literally says she felt mental puberty. And I was like, well, that's my whole book is mental puberty. That's my whole argument, is that when girls hit puberty, Shakespeare's day, their brains were imagined to have all these gifts, you know, not just pathological ones. And that really opened a portal for me, like, when I started doing the research for this book about, like, I'm gonna take a look at Carrie's brain, like, how it changes, you know, as he's revising her, like, in the first draft, when she gets her period, she just, like, becomes like. She's just, like, using her brain power to just do destruction. But in the revision, do you remember, there's that scene where she starts to have memories about how her mother tried to kill her when she was three? Like, it's the one with the rocks coming, the big stones falling. Yes, she had forgotten that, but that her brain had been activated, her memory had been activated so that she could access those traumatic memories, which is something I had noticed during Shakespeare's day, too. Like what they thought girls memories could do when they. You know, when their brains started sparking

[C]

and how they treated women, you know, in those periods of times, you know, a lot of the times, they would send women in one island, they would congregate together and menstruate together because they thought that they were insane. Like, the way they still treat women with menopause, how menopause isn't real. You know, like all these ongoing similarities. You know, it's crazy. And I always joke that the exorcism was about puberty.

[B]

No, it's not a joke. I mean, that's for real. Like Regan is, you know, she's on the verge.

[C]

Oh, you're right. And then look what happens to her. She gets possessed. Well, how about.

[B]

Do you remember Audrey Rose?

[C]

Audrey Rose is one of my favorites.

[B]

Oh, my gosh.

[A]

Wait, what's Audrey. What's Audrey Rose? Oh, my God.

[B]

It was written around the same time. I think it was like that era of. I mean, I think I only watched that. I didn't read it. But that's about another 12 year old girl who's about to get her period and. And she gets like. She's reincarnated.

[C]

Reincarnated. Rachel, you would love it. She dies in a car crash and gets reincarnated into another family, but starts reliving that memory of burning alive in the car.

[B]

So the girl who's the reincarnation of Audrey Rose, I think. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Is like, keeps putting her hands against the glass at night and like her hands are burning and it's like. So. Yeah. Now this is like a tale as old as time. It's like these girls. Yes, exactly. Hitting puberty and all of a sudden they're like brains just like, are able to access and do all this stuff, but it tends to get pathologized. And what I was really interested in is it's not just pathology. It's like they're really inventive, they're really creative. They're really able to access memories other people aren't willing to remember. Like Ophelia. Like Ophelia to me is a hero. I don't think she's crazy. I think she just knows that's the only way people are gonna pay attention to her. But she walks on stage and she's like, where is the beauteous majesty of Denmark? It's like, hey, everyone's forgotten I'm here. I remember. You know, so anyway, I feel. I get really passionate about this stuff,

[C]

but as you should. It's amazing. It's amazing.

[A]

So if you had your class to Stephen King's in the Fall, it sounds like you're still in touch with him or how and with this book coming out. Like, is he. I mean, he must be excited about this. Like, what's the. What's the current sitch with him?

[B]

What's the current sitch? I mean, you know, I like to give him his privacy because I Don't want to be, like, hot. You know, like, from the beginning of this project, I never wanted him to think in any way I was just exploiting him or, like, using him to get fame, whatever. It was. Like, I just really wanted to just. I think that's why he trusted me to do this, is he understood that I'm just passionate about the language, about how he crafted this. And I really feel like he hasn't gotten his due in that way, especially from academia. And I was like, you know what? You're an incredible craftsperson, and the world needs to know this. And some people do, but not enough. So I like to. I've given him. If he wants to say something great. And he did, which was amazing. He did read the whole book. He said he really loved it. And then he did put on social media last week that it. That it was. He said it was the best book about his process he'd ever read. And I'm like, I can die now. Like, this is unbelievable. I know. It felt so gratifying. I was like, oh, my God. Like, that means the world to me. Like, because. Not just cause it helps sell books, but because it's like Stephen King. I got it right, you know? Like, I hit something that felt authentic to him. And that. That was so powerful for me, you know, especially as an academic who's been writing these books for decades.

[C]

Incredible.

[B]

That have sort of a limited kind of reach. And I felt like, oh, and again, Shakespeare. It's not like Shakespeare's gonna portal down. Although maybe he will. Maybe Shakespeare will portal down and be like, you got that right. About Ophelia. Or he'll be like, what are you talking about? That's not what I meant. Ophelia was batshit crazy, you know? But to have that. That really meant the world to me.

[C]

Amazing.

[A]

Also, I think it's interesting that you're teaching him in an academic situation, because I think at our age, we still have the thing of. Here's the canon of what should be taught. Meanwhile, time goes on. New books are written, and what is worthy of being studied and what is it? And the fact that you could pick up a Stephen King book in an airport bookstore. So is your whole course on Stephen King, or was he part of a course?

[B]

This was a course called American Ghost Stories. Yeah. Which was so fun. And I'd never taught it before, and I just created it or whatever. I mean, I'm sure other people. I know other people of course, like this, but I was like, I'm gonna pick all my favorite Ghost story books, you know, and ones that I knew had been speaking to each other. So we started with the Haunting of Hill House, which is just brilliant. Shirley Jackson and Stephen King often references Shirley Jackson. And we ended with Northwoods by Daniel Mason.

[A]

Northwoods. I have that sitting here on my shelf.

[B]

The students were obsessed with that book, and I'm obsessed with that book. I mean, it's just brilliant. Kind of like eco horror meets magical realism meets, like, it's funny. It's. It's just a brilliant ghost story, and it's about.

[C]

That book's number is up, sweetie. She's dancing on the shelf she's dancing on the shelf I have a question.

[A]

So you did Haunting of Hill House, Stephen King.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And what other.

[B]

We did Beloved.

[A]

Beloved. Okay. Yes. Toni Morrison.

[B]

We did some Louise Erdrich stories.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Oh, we did Our Missing Heart. I don't know if you know that book. Our Missing Hearts by Celeste Ng. That's one of my recent favorites, too.

[A]

Oh, Celeste Ng. Okay.

[B]

Yeah. It's just gorgeous. So we're sort of looking like, what is. You know, what purpose do ghosts serve? And it's not just one thing. And it's not the same in every cultural tradition. Right. So that's why I was trying to read a lot of different cultural traditions in the class. Like, America is made up of a lot of different, diverse traditions, and ghosts are being used in different ways where they represent different things.

[A]

You're really upping our academic standing here by saying that there is a college course on ghost stories. I love this because I don't think we've addressed this from an academic standpoint, Irene.

[C]

No, not at all.

[A]

Did you. In your curriculum there, did you include any, like, really old ghost stories, or was it all.

[B]

I thought about it, I was like, you know, I went back to all the kind of old, old ones. And, like, we did start with the House of Usher, you know? We did.

[C]

I love that. Yeah.

[B]

That story. But no, I didn't want to go too far back, actually. I was like, you know what? Because I did want to make sure I was approaching it from a multicultural perspective. And if you start with sort of the old classics, it's all the same

[A]

old white dudes, or they're spoken tradition. Or they're spoken traditions. Like lore. Yeah, okay.

[B]

Exactly. Yeah. I mean, that's so cool, too. Right. Because they almost are all based in oral traditions. And that's another thing that I think when I'm thinking about Stephen King and why his stories endure is like, because he's thinking of how it's gonna sound right in the reader's ear. That was a conversation we had too. He's thinking about that. These horror stories, these ghost stories are based in oral traditions. So if the words aren't sticking in your head, like Shakespeare. Right. Shakespeare was writing in an oral. Like, he's writing for the stage. Right. He's writing for his words to be heard, not read. So I think that's why there's a lot of overlap, you know?

[C]

Yes.

[B]

So true. Yeah.

[A]

Well, I feel smarter now. Me too.

[B]

I know. Let's get. When we get to the tarot readings.

[C]

This is amazing.

[A]

I have a question.

[C]

One.

[A]

One question about the whole Shakespeare of it all. Like, oh, so your podcast, Everyday Shakespeare with Michelle Ephraim who? So you and I have all these connections that I won't go into because it's too boring for the listener. But. But it would be interesting. We could do, like, an entire episode on Shakespeare. Shakespeare, Woo Woo.

[B]

Shakespeare, Woo Woo.

[A]

But if you want to just give us, like, what would, like, a headline. I don't know. Toil and trouble. I don't know. What would be, like, the Woo Woo y Shakespeare headliner that we could talk about here for a second.

[B]

I mean, I'm gonna go with. This is the epigraph to my book is Present Fears are less than horrible imaginings, which is what Macbeth says when he gets the. You know, the witches encounter him. Like, at first, I was gonna call the book horrible imaginings, and then my agent was like. Like, you can't call it that. I'm like, oh, all right. But I love it. Okay. But anyway. But that idea of, like, I love that because it's so evocative of, like, that moment when Macbeth. And whenever I teach Macbeth, I'm always telling my students, I'm like, the witches are like the red herring. The problem is, that's not what's scary. What's scary is what Macbeth is imagining in his own head, which is killing the king, which he came up with all on his own. I mean, maybe his wife pushed him a little, but, like, he. That's his own horrible imagining is like, I can get to the crown faster if I kill the king. And that's what shakes his body. Well, like, when he describes his hair standing on end and he's shaking and his heart's thumping against his ribs, it's because of what's in his head. It's his horrible imaginings. And I thought, that's. So that's exactly why horror does what it does. It's not about the monster. It's not about the vampire. Right. It's about your confrontation with yourself and your deepest fears. Right. And your deepest. Like who am I as a human and when have I stepped beyond humanity? You know, so.

[C]

Right. And what you're capable of.

[B]

What you're capable of. Wow.

[C]

Right?

[B]

I mean that's the thing. Like you go back to the Boogeyman story, you know, who's the monster in that story is the father. It's Lester Billings. Because he's the one who's like, doesn't let his kids come into their bedroom at night. Cause he's like, don't be sissies. He doesn't give them a nightlight. And then the last kid, Andy, you know, he's such a coward because by then he thinks the Boogeyman's true. And he's right. He's like, leaves his little kid as a decoy. Like, he's like, he's the freaking monster in the house. His Lester Billings is just a shitty father.

[C]

He's a shitty father. Exactly.

[B]

And Rita the mother is just weak. She just like can't stand up to him.

[C]

Exactly. And how damaging that is. And again that it's in the DNA, that trauma just continues. Right. That's crazy. I think any good writer, which is a brilliant writer will have that kind of an element, you know, like even with Stephen King, when I was reading some of his books, every time he vilifies the town or he has a love hate relationship with the town. But like even Maine, when you think about Maine, how it's close knit, they can hold secrets. And I was telling Rachel, it kind of reminds me of like the Catholic church where it's a sacred space and how they're abusing children. And then there's a cover up about it, you know, like that whole like there's like a good and a bad. There's good because there's intimacy. But. But what happens when intimacy becomes immoral and it's unchecked?

[B]

Oh my God, that's beautiful right there. That's the headline. Yeah. I mean the town knows darkness. The town has its secrets and it knows how to keep them. Right. And that town can be like, you're saying any community that's close knit, like that one more Woo Woo story that's interesting is that, you know, Stephen King came up with the idea for the Shining when he was staying at the Stanley Hotel in Estes Park, Colorado and he had a dream he was staying in room 217 with Tabitha and he had a dream that Joe, their oldest son, was being chased through the corridors of the hotel by a fire hose.

[A]

I'm literally chilling.

[B]

I'm getting chills. And then he woke up and he was like, I think I know what my next book is.

[C]

I'm literally getting chills. I'm literally getting chills.

[B]

And then when I was looking at the drafts, there was a whole like long sequence of the fire hose chasing Danny in the first draft. And he just, just ended up cutting it. But I'm like, but it's still the origin story for how he came up with this. Right. And again, that's a real life fear. Like my child is going to be harmed. Right.

[C]

By a fire hose.

[B]

By a fire hose. Which to me is not that scary. But you know, the way he writes

[C]

it, it is smart. You're married to a fireman like me. Very smash. Right.

[B]

So it's hitting you in a totally different way.

[A]

Yeah. I love dreams as creative origins. Like that's really fascinating to me when people get ideas from that. Yeah.

[C]

Amazing.

[A]

Yep. I'm talking about sleep again. But it's so important. I mean, how are you going to access your loved ones from beyond the veil if you can't dream? How are you going to astral project to the moons of Jupiter? I mean, look, I'm just talking basic facts here, right. You need your sleep. And you know what's gonna help you with that? A blissy silk pillowcase. Silk is naturally cooling and breathable. And my dermatologist even recommended a silk pillowcase for healthier skin. I know this isn't just me talking. This is a certified doctor. That's right. With Blissey silk pillowcases, you'll see healthier skin and hair in weeks. Silk has anti aging properties, reduces fine lines and wrinkles over time. And it's naturally hydrating. Silk fibers keep skin moisturized all night. And what I love most, silk is naturally cooling. You always have the cool side of the pillowcase, but also there's more. Blissey silk pillowcases are fully machine washable. They come in over a hundred colors with new Wicked and Harry Potter designs. And for the woo woo person that you are or in your life, the Zodiac collection. That's right. Now I don't have to just be a sex tubal Pisces. I can sleep on it too. I don't know what that means, but I'll figure it out later. More of your Zodiac energy right there while you sleep. They make a practical and loved gift for birthdays, bridal showers, anniversaries and more because you're a listener. Blissey is offering 60 nights risk free, plus an additional 30% off when you [e-mail] Woopod that's B L I S S-Y.com W Woopod and use code Woopod to get an additional 30% off. Your skin and hair will thank you. Did you want to talk about other Woo Woo things like that are in your life or that's optional?

[B]

I mean, I am just like, I will say, I think because I didn't grow up with organized religion. Like my parents, my father's Jewish, my mom's Lutheran. Like, and they were like, by the time they had kids, they're like, ah, we can't figure it out. Just whatever, we'll do nothing. Which, you know, fine, you know, But I guess I've always been very open to other kinds of ways of thinking about spirituality. So I definitely, you know, I love me a good psychic. Like there aren't many of them, but there are some. In fact, have you had. I went to one in Los Angeles because my sister lives out in LA and I was like in my early 20s and I swear I still have the tape. Like it's a cassette tape. She has predicted. And I tried to find her again and I couldn't. Like, she just like disappeared. It was phenomenal. She especially talked about someone named Steve who was gonna be really important in my life, which granted is a common name. But still, everything she said has come true.

[A]

What else did she say? I mean, Steve, that's huge.

[B]

Steve. She talked about how I was gonna move, how I was gonna meet my husband and we were gonna live in two different places and go back and forth and figure it out. And I hadn't even met. But we did end up having a long distance marriage because we're both academics and we were living in two different cities. And then she talked about, you're gonna be teaching teachers how to teach. She didn't even know anything about what I did, you know, but this is exactly what I ended up. So anyway, there were so many things, I'd have to go back and look, I hope I can still play the cassette tape and it hasn't like unraveled or like gotten so dusty, but. So I'm definitely a believer in that. If you can find a good one. You know, I know there's a lot

[A]

of fakers out there.

[B]

Yeah, a lot of fakers. And I have a fantastic woman in Cambridge, Massachusetts, who's a field trip, a medium, you know, really. She said some pretty amazing things.

[A]

Wait, question Medium. Did she contact someone from the beyond?

[B]

So, no, she did. I mean, she just sort of tapped into angels and things like that. But she did say some things that were pretty powerful that spoke to me. And my favorite place to go is Sedona. If I can get to Sedona, to Boynton Canyon. I don't know if you've ever been there.

[A]

No, I haven't. Have you, Irene?

[C]

No. Oh, you.

[B]

That's your field trip.

[A]

I know. It's like so woo woo.

[B]

Yeah, it's the best.

[A]

The only field trip we did was we did sail en masse and that was really fun.

[C]

That was a lot of fun.

[A]

We talked to a witch expert there, two experts, but Sedona's definitely on the list. But tell us about what your experience was.

[B]

So Sedona, I mean, I go to this particular like over the top spiritual spa that is like unbelievable because I'm like, well, I don't want to go, like, I don't want to go to Kripalu and like, I want to be able to drink and like enjoy myself and get a massage and get some of the spiritual stuff. So that's this place that I go to in Sedona called Miyamo. And it's like you can get like a psychic massage where like the masseuse is tapping into things that are happening to you as you're getting a massage. I mean, it's really like, I'm all over that. You can do past lives regression, which I have tried, but unfortunately I don't know if it's that ghost that I stopped listening to and I got like boxed out of the past lives thing, but I never am able to see a single past life. So have you done it?

[A]

She tried. I haven't. She didn't. It didn't work for you Tried it, Irene, at that workshop.

[C]

What did? Oh, the past life regression with Brian Weiss. Yeah, but. But it was a. Yeah, at a workshop with Brian Crew. Yeah.

[A]

I've never tried it. I'm curious.

[B]

I didn't see a thing. I didn't see a thing. And I was like, crap. I'm totally open.

[A]

I feel like that would happen to me and I wouldn't see anything.

[B]

Meanwhile, my sister went and she's like, oh, yeah, I was a Native American then. I was a Victorian lady dying of tuberculosis. And then I was like, God damn. I didn't even get like a glimpse of my foot in a sandal or anything.

[A]

Like Cleopatra.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[A]

The go to. Everyone can be Cleopatra.

[C]

Everybody's always Cleopatra Listen, you found your ghost in that psychic. I think she came back and told you everything that you shut down.

[B]

I know. I really need to go find that. I haven't listened to that cassette in like eight years. I think I still have a cassette player somewhere. So. Yeah.

[A]

Okay, so, Sedona, I mean, we gotta put this on our list. We really have to go of a psychic massage.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

As like. I mean, it doesn't sound more woo woo than that. But I do think there's something. I mean, there's something to people that can release it. I mean, and even I've heard of just, you know, regular masseuse. Massize masseuse. You know, they can detect, like, you know, where you're holding your tension and, like, what that means. And this sounds like one step beyond that. Yeah.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

We have to do it. And it makes so much sense because if you have, like, say you get really upset about something and your neck cringes up and you develop a ball there, then that moment of tension for that reason when your mother yelled at you is a bug ball that you have to go in and release. It makes such sense. It's not. Woo woo is pragmatic.

[B]

Yeah, it is.

[A]

Woo woo.

[B]

The whole thing about embodiment, right? Like, everything, all of our deepest emotions are going to be registered in our bodies. From horror to trauma to everything.

[A]

The body keeps the score.

[B]

Body keeps the score.

[C]

That's right.

[B]

Well, you should. You should go to this place.

[A]

You know, the more I learn about that, the more I firmly believe and the more I notice, like, not only bad things, but I notice the older I get the good thing. Like when I feel like, oh, this is a good decision, or, oh, I feel good about this. Like, I feel it and it's like a detector or like, I don't want to do this. And my body's like, I'm like, even if it's something little, I'm not talking about giant trauma capital T. I just mean like, oh, should I take this job? Or whatever. Like, you can kind of feel like, how am I going to feel that morning? And then. And it becomes more of a, like a helper for you to be in touch with that.

[C]

That's a beautiful point, Rachel. Oh, my gosh. I love that because I love the word helper. Instead of looking at as like, existential dread of some sort. I'm feeling dread. No, you have a little tiny helper. Okay, you do. Okay. And that little helper is going to. Rachel. I love that. And it's a good memory And I actually called Rachel, and I was like. I said I wasn't going to do something because it felt bad, and I was paying attention to my body right there. I was like, you did this, My little helper. But I love helpers.

[B]

I love that. And if you take it, you know, like, I think of it as, like, my posse of guardian spirits, too. Like, they're. They'll come and they'll send me what I need to know. So, like, every day, I pull a tarot card. I do have my tarot deck.

[A]

Yeah. You're serious about the tarot?

[B]

I am serious about the tarot. It's the way that I come to realize that's how the spirits. I think everyone has a way that spirits will come to you, whether it's a dream or whether it's just a feeling. Absolutely. And for me, it's the cards. And so I always pull a card every day, and I love this. Do a little incant. I don't know if it's an incantation, but I call them in, and I just get that same beautiful feeling of, like, my body just tingling, and I'm like, this is real. Like, this is real. Okay, Sorry, doubters. It's real.

[C]

It is real.

[A]

One is. Did you pull a card today?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What was it like? What? Could you tell us your interpretation?

[B]

I got the eight of wands, which is a great. So for me, the one. And everyone reads the cards differently. Like, for me, the wands are the intuition and creativity and spirituality, and the eight is like, they're moving forward. They're like, you know, so to me, this made sense. This came up doing that.

[C]

That's a very good card. And eight is also the number of success and infinity, by the way.

[A]

So you unpack that.

[B]

I did not know 8 success. I will unpack that.

[A]

This pod is gonna sell millions of books for you. It is. It is. You hear that, listeners?

[C]

That's right, Mom.

[A]

Monsters in the archive. Go buy it. Go buy it immediately.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, so I was gonna ask you. I was gonna ask you. Oh, wait, with this tarot thing, like, how did it start for you? Have you always been.

[B]

I've also been, like, tarot curious, you know? And, like, I've had interesting tarot readings. But then during COVID I was like, you know, like, all of us looking for something. I don't like to bake, so I wasn't gonna make bread, but I was like, you know what? Maybe it's a good time to take, like, an online tarot course or something, you know? So I took this online. It was through Bitty Tarot. She was great. And it was like, seemed low stakes. I could commit enough time to it each day. It's not like I had anything else to do. And it just like the best lesson she gave. Cause I had been like studying tarot books and like trying to memorize what each book, what each card meant. And she just sort of said it wasn't to me. It was an online course, you know, just recorded and everything. But she was like, you know, let go of the books. Just let the cards speak to you and tell them what they're going to say to you. And once I did that, I was like, it just kind of came and it's been my go to like channel ever since.

[C]

And that's a really great way for a reader to be, period. Because I feel like if you let the card speak to you and you're connected and you seem like a very open person, obviously, given the book that you wrote and the relationship you have with Steve. Sweetie. So the fact that you can just, you know, connect to people, that's it. I think I feel the same way about the cards.

[B]

Yeah. And that's. I mean, that's how I felt about his manuscripts too. Like. Cause when I went in, I was like, I'm not gonna go in with an intentional. Like, this is what I'm looking for. And I always tell my students, like, don't go into a book or anything thinking, this is what I'm looking for. You're gonna miss everything, you know.

[A]

Oh, I like that.

[B]

When I went in there, I was like, I had zero plan other than just letting the manuscripts. It's gonna sound woo woo, but that's okay. Speak to me like, just let them tell me what they wanted me to see, you know? And I really feel like that from day one with like, it's gonna be Pet Sematary, my friend. Like, that's where you're starting. Like, that was the foundation for everything, you know?

[A]

I love that.

[B]

Think about the palimpsest. You have experiences that we have when we return to horror at different times.

[A]

We need that word again. Thank you.

[B]

Palimpsest.

[A]

Excuse me? I've been on this earth for a long time and I've pal.

[B]

Obsessed. It's a great word.

[A]

Can you spell that and use it in a sentence, please?

[B]

P A L I M P. Palimp

[A]

S E S T S. Palimpsest.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

And it's like a layering.

[A]

Palimpsest. It's a layering. A layering, yeah.

[B]

So you'll have, like, a palimpsest of memories. Right?

[C]

Palimpsest is so much better.

[B]

Isn't that a great word?

[C]

Layering. And we shall never forget it. And we'll be using that right? In a restaurant.

[B]

I'm sorry.

[C]

I like my sandwich.

[B]

I mean, this is why I get paid the big bucks as an English teacher. Okay.

[C]

I love your laugh, too, by the way. While we're on the subject here, okay,

[A]

I'm still on palimpsest.

[B]

Palimpsest, which is different from a polyp,

[A]

which is a whole other thing. That is a whole other thing.

[C]

Also, I want to say that, like, I always like to think about this, and I've been thinking about this recently, because I haven't seen a ghost and I haven't seen my guides. I feel like you guys have both seen ghosts. But also your intuition can be your little ghost, too. You know what I mean? So you know when somebody. When something is saying to you, it's like a voice that's internal. Your intuition is a ghost, and that is woo woo.

[A]

And I love this because the way you approach the manuscripts and just listening to, like, being open, basically, that's what woo woo is. Being open to your feelings, the little helper, if you will. And just whatever vibes, spirits, whatever you want to call it in a creative process or in a decision or whatever going about your life. Like, it's always a good reminder. We know this, but we forget it because we're on our phones and we listen to. We get very. I get out of touch with my intuition unless I'm vigilant.

[C]

We all do. This is why I love this show, because right now, I wish we were together so I could give you guys a hug and a kiss on the lips even. That's right, A kiss on the lips. I said it right on the lips. And here's the other thing. I want you to stick around. Stick around because I'm getting the marshmallows and we're breaking out the guitar.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Come on.

[B]

Can we do that? Telling a ghost that's stiff as a breather,

[C]

stiff as a bird, flat as a bird.

[A]

And that worked, too.

[B]

That worked, too.

[C]

That did work because we were in sync. Because we were in sync.

[B]

And you know what? Those are preteen brains girls all getting together.

[C]

That's right.

[B]

Oh, preteen brains.

[C]

You just hit on something.

[A]

I wish we were all gonna be in Maine. So I did this improv show in Maine, but I can't do it this summer. But two summers ago, Caroline and I met up with our mutual Friend. Sanj. Sanj and I wish we were going to Maine again this summer. And then we could go crash Steve's house too.

[C]

Okay. I love Steve.

[A]

I'll be like.

[C]

You'll be like, don't bring that bitch. What's her name?

[A]

No, no, don't bring her. Irene and I are gonna go yell at the window, Steve. We don't kiss her. We're friends with Caroline. All right, so I know we're running out of time, but to wrap it up, did you want your Pendulum reading Caroline from Irene?

[B]

Of course.

[A]

Irene. Okay.

[B]

Are you kidding?

[A]

It's a. Yeah. Are you kidding? So it's a yes or no question.

[B]

Okay, I'm scared because I kind of don't wanna know the answer, so I think I gotta find one that's not as intense.

[C]

Think on this.

[B]

Okay, I'm gonna think. Okay, I got it.

[C]

Okay, you do.

[B]

Okay, Rachel.

[A]

I'm already getting an answer, though.

[B]

I've set up.

[C]

I got one, too.

[A]

I got a yes.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I got, like, a yes before.

[C]

You got a yes right away.

[B]

Swinging wildly, too.

[A]

Swinging wildly.

[C]

Look at how we're saying at the same time. Wildly resounding. We're both getting crazy. Yeses. What is it you mean?

[B]

It was, Will I ever get to live in California again? So I'm thrilled.

[A]

It's, like, going, really? It's. It's wildly swinging.

[C]

I was like, we haven't started yet.

[A]

All right.

[B]

I love it. I was gonna ask if my book was gonna make it to the bestseller list, but I'm too scared. I want to see, you know, so I'm just gonna let the also. It's not.

[A]

I'm just gonna tell you that it went. Mine says yes. Mine says yes. And I wouldn't. I wouldn't have said anything if it didn't.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

All right.

[B]

Thank you, ladies. That is, like, the best gift you could give me. Seal it up. I'm heading to California.

[A]

That's right, Caroline. Thank you so much again. For the 80th time, the book is called Monsters in the Archive. Is there an audio version too?

[B]

Just curious. Yes. So I actually got to record the audiobook, which was amazing. It was so firsthand experience.

[A]

Okay, now, this would be cool to listen to the audio because you're the one walking in to see everything, so that would be really cool.

[B]

I said to my editor, I was like, please, I really want to be the one to read my book.

[A]

Very cool.

[B]

And. And he was like, sure, it should be you. So I'm like, yay. So that was really magical, too. Getting to, like, orally narrate the story. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All right. So Monster in the Archive Books of Stephen King. They're all spread out for you with the academic and fan eye. The fan eye and the academic eye.

[B]

And I will say, if anyone's in New York, I'm doing an event on April 23rd at the Twisted Spine bookstore with Nat Cassidy in conversation with Nat Cassidy, who's a brilliant horror writer. April 23, the Twisted Spine, Brooklyn, New York.

[A]

Amazing. Okay, good, because this will come out before then. Yes, it will. Yeah.

[C]

Amazing.

[A]

And Everyday Shakespeare, your pod Everyday Shakespeare

[B]

podcast with Michelle Ephraim.

[A]

All right, all right. Well, thank you so much.

[B]

Thank you.

[C]

I had a blast.

[B]

Thank you for having me.

[A]

And you can find me on Instagram at Raydratsch, that's R A E Dratch. And you can find Irene at Irenebremis. That's B R E M I S Bremes. And thanks for listening. Thanks for joining me on this journey into the world of woo woo. Don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Woo Woo with Rachel Dratch is a key Q Code production executive produced by David Henning and Steve Wilson. Produced by Alexa Gabriel Ramirez, edited by Will Tendi.