← WorkCookie - Get Ahead with Industrial/Organizational Psychology in the Workplace
WorkCookie - Get Ahead with Industrial/Organizational Psychology in the Workplace
Ep. 315: Building Experience Before You Feel Ready
00:55:33
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- [00:01]
A
It's happening again. Welcome to Work Cookie, a CBOT podcast as we broadcast around the world. Get bite sized morsels and tidbits from our industrial organizational psychologists, other experts, and the latest research on the workplace to boost your organization's effectiveness. Sign up now@cbok.com that's s e b o c.com to engage with our community, gain a sense of belonging, access our other media and get rapid advice. Our experts@cbok.com welcome.
- [00:37]
B
I'm Dr. Jeremy Lookabal, Industrial organizational psychology consultant and workplace communication and negotiation coach. Also, we have Tom Bradshaw with us, a voice and speech coach and a damn good actor too. He is the official voice and speech coach for the industrial organizational psychology community.
- [00:54]
C
Well, hello and welcome to Work Cookie, our weekly gathering of iOSh recruiters and an actor. And as we try to make the world of work just a little bit better. Heather, thank you very much for joining us once again today. We're going to try and let your voice rest a little bit today, but before we do, we do need that. I was going to say beautiful voice, that kind of scratchy, gravelly voice just for a moment because this week we're going to have another open mic conversation. We've got a great panel and we're talking about building experience before you feel ready. Uh, we've talked before about, you know, the pretender syndrome, you know, and a lot of people, especially early career, am I ready? Can I take on this challenge? I want to, but am I really ready? So, you know, getting experience is one of the most difficult things I remember, you know, as a young actor, you know, if you want to join the union, you need experience, which means you need to get a job, but you can't get a job unless you're part of the union. So, you know, round and round it goes. So what's it like for an IO psychologist especially, you know, how do you build that experience when, you know, especially you've just come out of university or you've been working for an organization and you've decided to take the leap and become a consultant. So go.
- [02:12]
D
Absolutely. Well, thank you. Oh, yeah. So I'll go on my own experience. So before ever getting into IO, I worked in the hospital system, so definitely not IO And I looked at my resume and I know Lee's not on here, but he had an experience where he sat down with Jeremy and Jeremy was saying, well, this is IO experience and this is IO experience, and this is. This could be IO ified, like you have a lot of experience, but it's just like how you frame it and, but to get that formal experience, you know, that's a little bit more difficult. And you know, we can think of things like internships and volunteer work and consulting projects and other opportunities. But what I found was really helpful when I first got out of my master's or I was still like right at the end of it was joining a psyop committee. And I really love training and development. That's like part of my bread and butter other than coaching. And so I joined their continuous education committee and I helped on that for two years which gained, I gained so much experience doing that. And we met monthly and then we had like follow up emails and little connections throughout that time and then we were super busy during conference times. So I mean there were periods where it was a little bit more busy than others. But I saved all of that experience and it helped me when I was looking into my first actual training and development roles. And, and SIOP also offers like mentoring programs which if you are partnered with someone who could maybe help you find other things like internships. But one of the things that I hear from a lot of clients are where do you find these internships? Because that could be kind of hit or miss in this field. And if you are doing a mentorship or not mentorship, but internship, is it an unpaid one? Because that's a lot of time that you might be committing to something unpaid, especially if you need to pay your bills and just something to think about.
- [04:22]
C
Well, I know I'm not a fan of non paid internships and I know up here in Canada they're, they're actually bringing in some laws to prevent them because it's just not fair. But could you like if I'm, if I just, you know, graduated university, I've got my iOS other master's or doctorate and I'm from a small town, maybe you know, 20,000 people. I could go and talk to some of the, you know, companies in my town and say I would like to volunteer and to help your organization, but I'd want to know something about the organization or I might be bold enough to walk in and go, I'm going to help you and you will pay me just this little bit of money so I can pay my bills. So should I os, especially the newly branded ones, be out there, you know, actually going to organizations and going, you have some issues, I can help.
- [05:17]
D
I think it's a fantastic idea like marketing yourself well and especially if you need the experience. If you are in a small town and you know, a lot of times, unfortunately, in IO, it could be who you know. And so if you are networking or you're in this smaller town and you maybe know these individuals, you might have an in and know someone who knows that person who runs the business. Or maybe you do know the person who runs that business and you might have a better insight on, hey, I've noticed these problems. I'm an IO. I can help you solve this. I need to build my portfolio. You need to fix your problems. But here's my fee. It's like a win, win, win.
- [05:59]
C
Yeah, exactly. So grid start some hands up. So, Linda, let's go to you.
- [06:04]
E
So I totally understand this challenge and I've changed. I've had five different careers and a couple of times when I've changed, you know, I've just. My first from being a school teacher into wanting to be in health and wellness, corporate wellness kind of thing. I just. This was back in the days when you did this. It wasn't any Internet, but I just walked into an office, like for a pharmaceutical company and asked if I could volunteer a little bit on a daily basis or whatever. And it led for me being trained to be a trainer for certain things. And that really kicked it off, you know, so just go ahead. I think the hardest thing is to really ask. The other thing too is, is, you know, if you're in a small town and. And say you wanted to get into your consulting or coaching or things like that, I think that you do need to. For many of us, I can't. I don't want to say all of us, but that step from going from where you are to the next level, we need to. Being able to ask for money to do that when you haven't done it yet is really hard. And so if you go to like the Chamber of Commerce and volunteer or United Way and volunteer, they have a coaching for businesses, small businesses in some cities, and that helps you develop your Persona of that next level.
- [07:30]
C
Right.
- [07:31]
E
Who are you as this other person, this other identity in your career? And it takes some of the pressure off, especially if you're volunteering, to be able to see what your process is. Right. We all have to develop our own. We all have the theory or not, we have the theoretical knowledge. Right. But developing how we implement that takes a minute for us to develop. Just like a leadership style takes a minute to develop. And so to be able to do that without the pressure of, oh, they're paying me $150 an hour, and I'm not sure I can deliver on it, let you get your, give yourself some grace and get your feet wet. And it doesn't have to be 20 hours a week, it can be three or four or whatever. Right. But it's still, you can put that on your LinkedIn profile, you can put that on your resume and you do get some confidence from that process.
- [08:25]
C
Do you have any advice? Because I'm one of those people who, if I'm going to walk into that office and I'm going to ask for some money, I'm always going to undervalue myself. And I think most people are like that. If I'm worth $150,000 a, I'm going to ask for 75. So how do we, how can we actually put a value on our abilities and work, especially when we're at the earliest stage and not undersell ourselves? I mean, am I typical where I just want the job, so just pay me and I'll, I'll ask for a little bit. So you say yes. Is that just me or is that the world?
- [09:01]
E
That's the world. There are very people, few people that walk out the door with their diploma and go, yeah, pay me $300 an hour and you' getting a bargain. There's not, it doesn't happen too much. Right. So one of the ways I overcame that challenge for me is to look at what the companies I was targeting, what do they charge for their services? Right. Because that's a mental process that there's. Oh, that's how much we charge. So it makes sense that someone else would charge for something like that. Right. And so that's where I leveled the playing field a little bit. And then as time goes on or you expand scope or you gain more experience, you can and you become more aware of how much time it takes to actually deliver what you're giving them because it takes more time than you think it will then, then you can go from there. But that was the thing that I used that really helped me get over that under estimating process.
- [10:01]
C
Or we send in Jeremy because I think he's the only person who walks out of a negotiation happy. Thank you very much for that. Nick, let's go to you.
- [10:09]
F
Yeah, it's the catch 22 sort of need experience. But you won't hire me without experience and go round and round. Everybody sees the problem. Nobody's offering great solutions because hiring somebody a little green involves a lot of risk and businesses don't love risk right now. So it's one of those things that it's an arsenal in your tool. As you're looking where you really want to be, you are younger in the career in a spot where you can. It's a great spot to try and test drive things again. Pound the table. If you are in school, go to the career center in five minutes and start talking to them. Use the resources you have now because you know the cliche of when was the best time to plant a tree? A thousand years ago, When's the second best time? Today? So you can wallow in what you haven't done. But, you know, if you start getting moving, you'll have experience before you realize it. So that's, you know, let me go ahead.
- [11:02]
C
Well, let me ask, Let me ask you about experience because, you know, you. You're kind of. You're a great model for us because you're sort of transitioning and you have a ton of experience in the hospitality industry. But now how do someone like you take all of that experience and go and get a job in an I.O. maybe, you know, like Linda Ann was talking about working in the, you know, field of medicine. You know, how. How can you now take all of that wonderful experience and you're smiling and, and make yourself the guy I want to hire?
- [11:36]
F
Tom, if I had the answer to that question, we probably would have celebrated new opportunities several times over. But what I'm finding now is I'm working through it. It's on you. There's a lot of, well, meaningful you through psyops or cbok. Everybody's in your corner rooting. You've got to. You've got to be the one knocking on doors and writing resumes. That it does fall on you to figure out what you want and how you're going to go get it. You can take that crosswalk from where you've been, want to go. And I am painstakingly trying to do this. I put my resume in Gemini and said, okay, how's it going to parse? And okay, well, if you want to focus on IO, you've got to do all these things. And it threw out just all the buzzwords, all the cliches, some of it and some of it didn't. But even seeing that, I'm like, okay, well, I could address this bullet point up here, but is it authentic to the job that I had and the skills that I have, or am I just trying to use buzzwords to get somebody to see it? So again, you're writing for two audiences, objective ats, however varying uses organizations have. And then you're also writing for a recruiter and a hiring manager. You have to do a lot in a little bit of space. But I think that as you start to crosswalk that you know, you take some of the easy. For me, training of development is where I would like to. So I be running searches with restaurants that I've been a part of. How did you develop your training program? Motivational interviews. Take those easy sort of gimme crosswalk things or if you have a vision like I want to be in the space race, I want to be with Lockheed Martin or SpaceX or whatever, go to where they are. Like it's, it's simple advice but it's very, very scary to do because you have to approach somebody a little bit vulnerable, say hello. And again, like we talked with networking, it's good to do it just to do. And if you do it solely in service of searching for the job, yeah, that'll get done. But you do come off as kind of a taker and utilitarian which not a bad thing if you're a problem solver employer. Employers want to see that. Just know that some of the choices you make as you're trying to get some of this early experience may color you professionally for years to come. You have some things to overcome and blind spots and we all have to learn and develop. So I won't say that if you screw up, it's beyond repair, but it's a big world but a small community as far as IO goes. So yeah, I mean it's almost oversimplified to say be where the companies are, find the people who are where you want to be, ask questions on how they got there. And sometimes you got to take charge. Like if you're tired of just firing resumes into the void, go grab a research journal and see what's, what's happening. And then you can say, you know, yeah, I'm self taught but you know, I'm, I'm current on research and you know, I know the cliche is that you're job searching, live stream your struggles on LinkedIn, become a career coach or job search advisor, then you kind of get stuck there. But you know things like trying to offer up expertise where you have it, in spaces where you don't necessarily need backing, do so the way to demonstrate but also trying to start that conversation, be curious. And again, you don't know what you don't know until you're in it. And if you're. The panic sets in. I need a job. I need a job. I paid all this money for the degree. Don't worry about that. Like just try and take a deep breath, know that you're able to solve the problem and get to solving it. The quote from the end of the Martian, you know, you solve one problem at a time and get back home. So the problem is you don't have experience. Well, where can I get it? Is it already in my background and I just highlighted or do I need to shadow somebody like a puppy dog until I won't go away and then they'll take me until I get where I need to be?
- [14:59]
C
Thank you very much for that and you know, great advice and you know anyone who's listening, especially if you're younger. Join cbok, Join the mentorship program and you get to talk to all these wonderful people.
- [15:12]
G
Exciting news for all aspiring industrial organizational psychology professionals looking to break into the field or find that dream job. We've created the Ultimate IO Career Accelerator course designed to take you from job search to job offer. It can be tough to break into the field or find the right opportunity. That's why this course is expertly crafted by IO Psychology role selection and course development experts to guide you and every step of the way. Each module contains concise and chunked information packed with unique insights, actionable tips and proven methods to help you stand out and succeed. And it gets even better. Dive into interactive learning with infographics, experiential stories, short podcast chats, and even audio thoughts from experts to keep you engaged. Build your skills with hand on practice through career acceleration activities tailored to give you a competitive edge. Access our exclusive tool, the CBOK Custom AIGPT, your personal IO career coach available 247 to help you network effectively, refine resumes, find your niche, negotiate salary and so much more. This cutting edge course will prepare you to overcome every job hunt challenge and position yourself for success. Stay ahead of the game and stand out in the field. Visit cbot.comjob to learn more. That's scboc.comjob
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C
thank you very much for that Nick. Heather, let's go back to you and then Linda Ann will come over to you.
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D
Oh I was just going to mention that I was sensing a pattern here. 1 Tom, you had asked the question of when you are pricing your services and then when Nick was talking about going and just getting yourself out there. Some of these relate to that imposter syndrome or imposter phenomenon that we just have to unfortunately just tackle head on because it is a real thing that people are going to experience. Like no one can just outrun that. We are going to experience it at some point and, and knowing that it's going to happen. So whether or not you're wanting to price your services at 75,000 a year, when you know you're worth 150,000, just researching the market and knowing how much their services are and then working through those like limiting beliefs or negative self talk is going to help you overcome that. And then Nick, kind of piggybacking off of yours, you had mentioned using AI like Gemini to go through your resume, which can be really helpful especially if you provide it the actual job that you're applying for. Like, hey, find these keywords and basically like tell me like the grade that you would give this resume. Like, do you think that I would get hired? What should I change? But don't, like, don't be inauthentic with it. And, and then Dr. Pringle had put in the comments saying AI is also a useful tool in helping to estimate the scope and pricing of consulting work. And so as we continue to develop this technology and the use of AI, it can be super helpful. But again, making sure that we validate the AI model, whether you're using it for your resume or whether you're using it to price your stuff, make sure that it's true, it's valid, it's a reliable model. I know for me, I try to avoid ChatGPT and I personally like Claude, but I know that there's other models out there that are good. But again, I don't use Claude as an end all be all either. I still, if I have an output, I'm going to make sure that the output is correct. It's not just taking it at face value and running with it. It's not, it don't do that.
- [19:08]
C
Yeah, I, I'm now using it and it makes things quicker, but I'm not about to let it do the work actually for me because I have to put my name at the end of it.
- [19:18]
D
Thank you very much. Way to help with your thinking. Not to do the thinking.
- [19:23]
C
Exactly. Thank you very much. Linda Ann, let's go to you.
- [19:25]
E
I think that what helps there is it gives perspective, right? Especially and I think perspective in this process is, is very important, especially if you're dealing with the imposter syndrome process. And one of the things that I did was I, early on, I don't know how I came upon it, but it was a, I was watching a webinar of like McKinsey people delivering a leadership program in that and I was appalled at the quality of that was being delivered. I Couldn't believe. And so it took away that dimension that said, oh, all these people are so much better than me. No, they aren't. And so it was. That helped a lot too. Also, if you're looking to go into a new kind of role, and I think this is true too, if you're going from job to job or if you're going to into consulting, staying at least for the first time in that new role within the industry that you're familiar goes a long way. Right? Because you can sit there and talk the talk. You can say, oh, yeah, Scope creep will kill your business, you know, will put you out of business in a heartbeat. And if you're not educating your team members how to prevent it, then you know you're going to lose a lot of money. And then they know I know what I'm talking about within that industry. So it's important to be able to do that so that you can go in with some confidence. Even though you have a new role, then once you have experience in that role, transitioning to different industries becomes 100% more easier.
- [21:01]
C
Thank you very much for that. And yeah, training, especially online, boy, if it's not entertaining, nobody's listening. I had a similar experience with Deloitte. Two days, eight hours, so boring. And about an hour into the second day, I actually had to send them a text message because one speaker, that's all I could see was his eyes and above. And I'm like, if you don't know how to use the equipment, what. Anyways, I could rant. Thank you very much. Nick, let's go back to you.
- [21:27]
F
Yeah, it's. I think the cure for imposter syndrome is being there. And like, I can do that better than that guy. And, you know, remembering that you do do have the skills, you may not be perfect. You're trying to be humble, you're trying to be all these sorts of things. And when you're kind of out in the cold or outside of the fold, it's. It's really, really easy to let. Let the intrusive, negative thought. You don't have a ton of confidence. So I think the more you kind of find something that works for you. I know mental health, sort of stability, very hard in job searching because there's so much tied to identity and survival and it spiders out pretty, pretty quickly. That's why you always have to kind of just breathe and solve the one problem that's in front of you and then build momentum from there. But, yeah, I think as long as you're Trying to stay relevant and adjacent to where you want to be. You know, at some point, you're going to be in the right room at the right time. I know it's insanely frustrating, but timing and luck play a factor. Can create some luck by being in the right circumstances at the right time. So, yeah, be adjacent to, around, be in rooms like this. Again, y' all let me talk way too much and they let me talk. They will call on you if you raise your hand. And it's a great way that I have found to stay connected to and contribute to the field without, you know, having to, you know, post to journals or do anything that's outside of my scope, you know, with everything else that that's going on. So there are rooms and places to be in. And I think again, we find something we can take control of, we take control of it, we move on to the next. And also you have to, you have to check where, where your value and values are at. It's one thing we always talk, keep the survival job. Stabilize as best you can, but don't let it influence you to make a bad decision. You are an animal lover. Maybe a meat processing plant is not going best place. So you have to kind of hold true to some of those things in the midst of the chaos and put yourselves in the situations that align with your values. Because it's not, it's not finding a job. You're coming out of grad school. If you put in the time to get. You're not looking for a job, you're looking for a career. You're looking for something that can last. So again, that puts more pressure on it and I'm sorry. However, you know, those, those first few decisions are crucial. And if you are in a volunteer space or if you're interning, you know, in a place where you're just kind of dipping your toe in the water with different specialties or fields or things like that. That's the time to be like, it's not my cup of tea. Not when you're 15 years in and go, oh my gosh, I hate what I've been doing. For the last difference, you know, I
- [23:54]
C
just had a thought and, and let me see if this actually would work. So you've been doing the podcast for quite a while now and you know, you've got some great content on the work Cookie podcast. If you were to take in, you know, make those into like 30 second, 90 second clips and send those to potential employers as a way to get to know you, do you Think that would be beneficial?
- [24:16]
F
Depends on, you know, they catch the ones where you bait me into being the revolutionary or where I actually make some sense. But yeah, I mean it's, it's out there, it's content, it's, it's that idea that, you know, everybody's, everybody, most people have a smartphone, so there is sort of being, I can create content, I can put it up on a forum, I can be out there and pay for the production value are going to be that. But it's still a matter of attention, whose attention get. How can you use that? Do you have a message that's worth, that's worth selling? Probably should go back through and say, okay, what actual contributions have I made? Because oftentimes I'm the first one to make fun of me on here and everybody starts shaking their head at me. So again, that's a matter of confidence, a matter of controlling control. But yeah, I have regular contributor to the work podcast on my resume and hoping that at some point I will bump into a hiring manager who listens and goes, well, he's not completely polished, but he does know what he's talking about.
- [25:04]
G
There we go.
- [25:05]
C
Thank you very much for that. Rich, let's go to you.
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H
So my, this is, I guess this is more of, more of a question to the group than it is any kind of answers, right? Because here's the situation. You know, I've got several decades of experience and you know it. And arguably a lot of this is in industrial organizational psychology, though not under that umbrella per se, but today's market, and it's has been for the last at least three or four years now. We've heard of this, this, you know, skills based economy, right? So we're in a skills based marketplace and a lot of the, a lot of the skills that are, that are required are very specific to the industry, very specific to its specific type of software. That's, that's one, that's one qualifier, right? If you're trying to go into a company that's running saps for Hana and you don't have that experience, the AI almost automatically kicks you out to begin with, right? So, so that's, that's one thing that I'm finding that's not only troubling to me but it's troubling to a lot of my, you know, the people that I pal around with and the like, you know, where we are going back and getting training in certifications and you know, Microsoft or SAP or you know, whatever it is, right. And getting, you know, Some experience, but then they want you to be immersed in the industry. There's the other part of it, right? As you have the skills, you have everything that they're looking for, you can check all the boxes, but you may not have been in that particular sector of that industry. For instance, I've been in manufacturing, I've been in packaging, I've not been in cardboard manufacturing. Knocked me out of the, knocked me out of that like right away. That's. We're not. And I had this was in an interview and they're like, yeah, but you haven't been in this, right? So, yeah, so the, the, the imposter syndrome is there and it's kind of compounded by when you go through the actual hiring process and somebody says, yeah, but you don't have this. So not meaning to add to anybody else's anxiety about what's going on here, but this is the reality of where we're at in these, in this marketplace. And that's after 160 interviews over the last three years.
- [27:35]
F
Go.
- [27:37]
C
Thanks for the honesty, Rich. I feel better. No, I don't, but thank you very much for that, Natasha. Maybe you've got a solution. Let's go to you.
- [27:45]
I
Well, thank you so much for the vouch of confidence. I don't know if I do have a solution, um, but I do have. I was a little bit joining, a little bit late joining the conversation today, but as I thought about the topic in and of itself and I was listening to Nick earlier, it is safe to say that a lot of entrants in any industry whatsoever are not, while they are hoping for a career, are at this moment looking for jobs simply because of the landscape of the workforce, the economy and just everything that is transpiring locally and internationally. And it is safe to say that it's not going to get any better. And so for me, I like to approach these conversations realistically and also speaking not necessarily futuristically, but what it, what it should be, but what it is in order to paint a realistic picture and have. And set realistic expectations for those who are on the market. That said, one of the things that I have noticed in the workforce, and this is way before our times have gotten to what they are now in that we do have skilled entry level people who come into the workforce with various types of strengths and experiences that they acquired either by way of volunteer organizations that they have worked in. I might not have been a project manager for a Deloitte or a full time job, as you say, because I was in college still But I still ran an organization that required managing budget, that required, you know, proper, you know, auditing for tax purposes, etc. And so when these people graduate and go into workforces, come in as interns, and they are in many instances contributing and working at a full time career and professional level, there is a underlying sentiment where despite seeing these people's skills, their abilities and how much farther they could go if being poured into or trained the right way way, corporate America generally greets them with the mindset of, you have to pay your time, you have to pay your dues. Because when I was at your level, when I was your age, this is the dues, this is the time that I had to, this is a process that I had to go to in order for me to finally make it to where I am. And I was wondering if part of that does not speak to much of the, I don't want to call it imposter syndrome because it's not a syndrome that these entry level people bring into the workplace. They come in hopeful and confident in their skill sets only to have that dream or wool taken out from underneath them despite them doing the work. And I wonder what, what advice we can give to anyone who is an entry level listening to this podcast right now. And also those of the practitioners who are in the industry are either contributors to this sense or are under, are trying to understand how to combat that behavior or psychology, dare I say, in organizations. And I want to leave that question to the group to say how do we combat that? And you know, or what advice do we have for anyone who's, who plays a role in this narrative, be it the entry level, the intern that is just trying to make the most and hopefully get a career out of this, or even the gatekeeper or, or the person who might see themselves as the gatekeeper, still holding on to something that happened to them 25 years ago and has absolutely nothing to do with the strength of an entrant or an intern in this industry.
- [31:59]
C
Let me ask you this question because I've gone through a similar situation myself when it comes the training of actors where, you know, I went through the training process through university with a very similar message that, you know, you need to pay your dues, you know, and this is where you paid your dues and you had to do things in a certain way and it became mun. Manipulation, it became abusive at times. And so I was part of a generation and was lucky enough to have the experience of building a new program where we went, no, we're not Going to train people the way we were trained. We're going to do better. When I hear, you know, coming into an organization, you got to pay your dues, you know, you've got to take the same steps that I took. Well, I'm 40 years older than that person who's just coming in, and things have changed a lot. Shouldn't I, as an executive be focusing not on what I had to go through, but on what we need now for that employee, which is probably going to be totally different than my experience? I mean, like someone said earlier, I'm from before the Internet.
- [33:02]
I
Yeah, okay. That what you. I love what you added because I remember once having to tell a manager who told me about the dues that they had to pay and the hell that they were putting me, that I wouldn't say how the hazing that they were putting me through is nothing compared to what they had to go to and go through. And in that moment, I looked at that manager and said, I am sorry for what you had to experience, but you being the victim of a bad, a survivor of a bad manager does not give you the right to put me through the same process that you went through. It is a choice to continue that level of hazing because you also have the choice to have the buck. And here. And I think for those who are listening, the question might be, do I want to continue to be a contributor to that problem or to that narrative, or do I want to be a solution? Do I want to be the fresh new page where, you know, that type of mentality ends here? But it's not, it's easier said than done simply because again, of the lens of I can see you coming in and having the skill sets that I'm being paid big money for. And if your skill sets are discovered and an organization can see they can get the work done at a lower level, then it might be my job at risk. But the reality of it is an entry level person coming in still does not have the experience or maturity to manage an entire division or a team at the level at that of that senior person. And so I guess for me, part of the conversations that we don't often see happen in organizations is how do we leverage all strengths and experiences for the betterment of our team? Meaning that you come in post Internet post. I entered into this industry pre Internet. You skipped the whole Internet phase and you are in this industry AI phase. And so how do we combine my expertise and knowledge of industry, which is my strength, that that will take you years to achieve. With your strength of efficiency, of creativity, of AI and of artificial intelligence in order to amplify the work that we do. And I think that oftentimes we see interns and entry level people as just that.
- [36:04]
C
Yeah. We often see them as disposable and
- [36:07]
I
not what more, you're a seasonal employee and your experience or knowledge is not seasoned. And because your internship has an expiration date, because, I mean, we even see that in talent acquisition, where an intern might apply for a job, which has happened. I think it was with iHeartRadio, where an intern came up with an idea while interning at iheartradio and they did not. They, you know, downplayed the idea of this is nice, but no. Then after the intern left, they adopted the idea that became very widespread. I think it was like my. My top musics or my highlights of music throughout the year or whatnot. And that became a huge thing. But the bottom line, it was an intern's idea that they downplayed. And once the intern left, they recycled it as their own. And I feel as though a lot of organizations lose. Miss out on talent and so much. And it speaks negatively to their culture when we have instances like these.
- [37:15]
C
I'm so glad you're here. Thank you very much for that. Natasha. I love what you have to say. Nick, let's go to you.
- [37:21]
F
Yeah. Natasha is always a good balance for my optimism, her realism, and at some point we'll get to the point of how we steer the ship towards one side or the other, to Rich's point. You know, I've worked in the industry, but I haven't worked in that very specific niche. You got to just stand up on the desk and kind of go, oh, captain, my captain. Yes. I know the industry here. I can crosswalk to there and it's going to take work, effort. It's probably a little obnoxious. But the hope is that if you can take that crosswalk between what I've done, here's what you're demonstrating. A problem solver. You're also demonstrating you've thought about their culture and their process and that you've done the work to know what's going on. And hopefully somebody who's willing to turn the wrench or read the book or anything like that is going to be a valuable asset. If they don't see that sometimes. No. Is the greatest blessing you're going to. We're all trying to find something. Rejection hurts and it's hard part of the process because you can, you can follow all the advice A lot of it out there. Your resume optimize your experiences. I know, you know, I struggle as a parent because you see that if I don't get them in the right kindergarten, they're going to be sleeping on the street. We'll take that causal chain way too far, way too fast. But there, there is some, hey, any leg up that I can give, I would like to give things like that. But you can get all those things right. You can have the pristine resume and have the perfect experience. You could still fail. It's, there's, there's no guarantee on this and it's ugly and it stinks and it's not you want to see, but it's a reality of the situation. Something Natasha said kind of rattled me a little bit. I forgot what it was. But yeah, if we're trying to be out there and the hazing is, we're saying it's, it's a weird power dynamic because let's, let's not say that every person facing retirement wants to retire, can retire and they might want to be putting their thumb on the scale so that their value is seen more broadly or more specifically, they don't want to get traded in for a younger model by any stretch of the nation. So there are a lot of power dynamics at play as well because working years expanded. It's not 40 years. Go get your watch and all that. The social convention surrounding work and I don't know that enough businesses have caught up, could say we should be on affording because we have all the productivity we need and somebody's going to go quiet that socialist down. He's going to ruin the whole system. So the expectations of what does a business do? What is it there for some widgets, some people provide services but ultimately the organization as a whole is there to make money so they can keep making their widgets or services. And the organization is not a person, but it is made up of people. And so it's really easy to vilify and typecast people based on how they act. And if you're going to break cycles as strong as some of what we see in the market, you have to be vulnerable. You have to be willing to make the first move. I hate all the games that are out there in business, like just see me for me. But I have to bring value. I have to explain myself. I have to be the one. Hey, look at me. I'm great. You want me as part of your organization.
- [40:15]
C
Thank you very much for that, Linda. And back to you.
- [40:17]
E
So I, I'm Going to be a little bit on my soapbox again. But one of the things like you talking about specific softwares and, and the way that people, companies are looking for people to fit into their organization and especially when you look at the, the lazy way of posting a job and that's just to throw a, a job description up there, whether it's even accurate or not. Have you revisited, revisited that for this new position or whatever you're refilling? Are you going to change it anyway? So look at that. Really one of the things is just put down the four or five things that are really, really important for performing this job. Because even if you have a very specific request, say for software, right, that doesn't mean you're going to be using that software forever. How many times do companies change their software or does that mean all of your people are in any good anymore? But if you've hired good employees, people who can think, who can process, who have used many different softwares before and understand how to go through the menu system and understand the capabilities of it and then have a little bit of training, you've got a person who can use that software or any software that comes forth in the future. So just putting somebody into a peg, into that round hole is very, very limiting because you missed all the other pieces that make them or could make them a very, very valuable employee. And so I think that it's just, you know, and then putting in those that many criteria, I mean, some, and I haven't used this term in a while, but I call them Jesus jobs. I saw one recently where there's so many criteria for the job, Jesus couldn't do it. And so you have to really look at how are they being so specific for a reason that, you know, is really a reflection of the organization and how they approach things. You know, do they really value people for who they are and what they bring? Their ability to think? Come on, people hire people who can think.
- [42:19]
C
People who think are dangerous. Thank you very much for that, Natasha. Let's go back to you.
- [42:25]
I
Linda. Ann, I truly enjoyed your comment and it really, I try not to use the word trigger, but it really caused me to think back at a time where I applied for a role online and it was, it was pretty much straight to the point. A talent and culture manager role. Straight to the point, seven to ten bullet points standard. Everything was great. Spoke with recruiter. Recruiter informs me that, hey, this is a job that we're still working on, so expect some tweaks. I'll get to you with the updated resume. And the updated resume comes back the following day with four pages. Of the four pages, three fourths of the first page was a high level of the organization and you know, general culture stuff. And then the remainder was just straight up responsibilities for the person in this role. And I spoke with the recruiter and I said I'm concerned because this is not just an update. I'm concerned that this client does not necessarily, this organization doesn't necessarily know what they're looking for. And as a result they are just covering all their bases to make sure that this person is a one stop shop repository for anything and everything that they might need to include the last two bullet points in which one of them was we need someone who's happy and eager to show up to work every day and answer their phone no matter what the time is. And the last bullet point was you are not, do not expect to have a standard 9 to 5 and I'm paraphrasing here, do not expect to have a standard 9 to 5 like position and that you can be called at any given point. And I express that heavy like upfront. And I said, I don't believe that I'm the right person for this role. I can only be the right person for this role if the CEO who I would be reporting into needs someone to guide them as part of talent and culture into framing them, helping them frame what recruitment and job description should look like going forward. And someone that would be honest with them as a driver of culture. But this is not it. And of course I was, I was ghosted. You know, I was ghosted and I was fine with being ghosted. But I say this to say is that a lot of organizations don't. I feel as though there isn't really a sit down in terms of. And what exactly are the main four to five or five to seven things that this person will be doing? What they often do is say we need another specialist and we need another manager. And they just think about all the things that would necessarily that could potentially fall under this person or that they would kind of want this person to catch in the event that there is a need or what are the responsibilities that traditionally fall under this person's bucket title, but not necessarily. And what are the needs of this division that ties into the needs of the organization and how do we make and tailor that job specific to those needs or needs that are anticipatory but specific to an organizational need. And I say this from a standpoint that not all jobs are revenue generating. Within an organization. And oftentimes if a job that is not a revenue or a revenue generating role, having five to seven bullet points is not going to cut it for the CFO or the person who actually is responsible for, for finding out where within the budget does this role, this item fall, this, this cost fall. Right. And so as a result, a lot of leads of divisions have to make up hefty job descriptions in order to justify the extra headcount. And I don't think that it is communicated enough how that is harmful to the organization because employees, when they look at that job description say absolutely not and I'm not going to apply. And the people who do apply are the people who just need a job and not necessarily a career.
- [47:09]
C
You know, it's very interesting. I've, I've been noticing all the changes that have happened in the last few years. And you know, up here in Canada, our model was the United States when it came to, you know, corporate life and how businesses should be run. But now we're, you know, doing a lot more business with Europe and we're looking at their model and we're sort of moving away from the American model of how to run corporations and organizations might not be as profitable, but maybe still profitable in better places, happier places to work, the future will see. Thank you very much for that. Nick, back to you.
- [47:45]
F
Yeah, it's as much as, you know, you can find empathy. Job seeker, little guy. They're the ones who don't have any power in the situation. Somebody hiring more often than not, they're going to have tunnel vision. Hiring is an annoyance. They want to get through it, they want to get done. And so they're going to go to the path of least resistance. Okay, well, this is what it was. I don't have to sit here and examine it. I don't have to look at my whole team. We don't have time to do a restructure. I need somebody in that seat and then drag their feet for three months and the detriment is still there. And I think to Linda and pointed a little while ago, cognitive ability is the greatest indicator of success. Worry, rightly so, about are we measuring it correctly for job decisions? You know, it's, it's hard to tell where it is, but you know, you know it when you see it. And even the smartest, brightest people are going to have a blind spot. They're going to stick to no, there's no one thing that can catch an absolute there. The chat was kind of going off a little bit about, okay, so I need specific skills. So I'm going to go, I'm going to do this class, I'm going to get this certificate. And then all of a sudden you have all these letters after your name and you still can't find a job because now you're overqualified. So I mean, I think that those are great things to seek, but be deliberate in what you're going after and use those cohorts as further networking opportunities. Do it with a purpose rather than just trying to get the credential because you're chasing after something again. It's not easy to feel like you have a lot of control, almost process. But this is one way that you can stop and be deliberate and maybe not spend $5,000. Credential may or may not do any sort of good. We talk about, you know, are your people still good? I laugh. My father's about to retire, but his current role is actually him going back over programming that he did 15 years ago and the only one who could make the languages talk to each other. So those hidden skill sets, that underlying current that's there. And so to that point I would say, you know, fed up with, you know, trying to break into the. Take an art class, take a creative writing class. Figure something else to unlock a different side of your brain that might help you solve the problem in a way that's different than the street wash in business magazines or the IO research, all that. It's great, it's good. Do that and also, you know, do something completely out of left field. Move, dance, paint. There's a thousand things that you can do, you know, and it will help you kind of think through. It will give you different reps, things like that as well. To the bloat of job descriptions, It's a catch 22 because we want clear and transparent and realistic job previews. You can't describe the entire of every possible situation so succinctly. So I would hope that maybe everybody just goes for a B average. Like if we can give you about 80% of what you're going to face on a regular basis, we'll deal with 20% of oddities that come up as they come up. Catch us off guard too. But workers rights and things like balance to be had. How much can I tell you and how much script out and how much can we just kind of ballpark? The pay transparency law is great, but then you get, you know, ranges that are there because well, entry level person makes this and the 20 year employee makes this and so wide Ranges, that's a whole separate issue there as well. Complicating the problem. There's, there's no standard language. There's, you know, you're going to have to translate every culture, every job description to see what they're really saying. And yes, we look for the red flags. We're a family here. Half a dozen people shake their head like that's a warning, run away, but you know, the sentiment means well. My most recent interview was very kind of jarring. Kruiter was brutally honest about, you know, what the, what the culture looked like, what it was to the point it almost felt like they were badmouthing department in the company. I'm like, well, you're not being the spokesperson. Are you telling me not to take this job? Like blink twice if you're under duress? To some degree we're very honest. And so there was difference talking to the recruiter and then talking with the hiring manager. And so yes, was it realistic the company? We'll see. Yet to be determined. But again, you have agency in the process. You get to pick where you work. Your options may be limited by geography, by experience, by all that, but you do have a voice, you do have a choice. And again, sometimes no is just the best way to say this wasn't going to be a good fit and you were going to be back on the job search in six months because you were miserable.
- [51:42]
C
Thank you very much for that.
- [51:43]
E
Linda Ann, over to you, Nick, to the recruiter. It could be, and it could be that they've tried to put people in this position previously, but if, you know, they typically have a 60 to 90 day window where if someone doesn't stay for that length of time, they give the person their money back. And so if they're working for an agency, there may be an incentive that you don't want people to not stay for at least those 60 to 90 days. So that could be one of the ways that they make sure that the person is wide eyed when they go into that position. I wanted to just mention something about what you were saying, Tom, about working more with European companies now versus us and maybe it's not as profitable, but when you look at the way they do business and maybe they have less turnover because of the way they conduct business, that really does add to the bottom line. And you know, you look at over social media the past month or so when FIFA's been in town, right, and you see a lot of people talk, Europeans talking about, oh, America, etc. Etc. And then I saw an American respond and say, well, what do you do in Europe that you have a. Can take off a month and come here and whatever. And I was like, they get six weeks vacation, so, you know, it's a different model.
- [53:09]
C
Yeah, I started with three weeks vacation, so. And, and they make me take off days like health and wellness days. Like, I get five of those on top of my vacations. And like, they complain if you don't use them. I love working. Again, thank you very much for that. Heather, let's come back to you because our time is coming to a close. You are still with us, I believe.
- [53:34]
D
I'm right here.
- [53:35]
C
Oh, good. So tell us a little bit about next week.
- [53:40]
D
Yeah. So next week we are talking about. So the title is standing out in a competitive job market. And so kind of piggybacking off of this topic. It's going to be about ways to improve your networking, your interviewing skills and your, your personal brand in IO. Not to say you have to go out and do your own consulting firm to have a brand, but getting to know your skills and your interests and all of that in IO, which will help you narrow down the types of jobs that you should apply to.
- [54:15]
C
Well, first, feels like we took the first step today and we'll take another step next week and we'll get everybody hired. Thank you very much for that and thank you everyone for your contribution. Once again, if you'd like to join us, we are live every Thursday, 12 Eastern. Just go to the CBOK website and get your free ticket and share your voice with us. And once again, these great people are available if you got some questions you can ask. Thank you very much, Heather. Thank you, everyone. And Heather, if you want to count us out, we'll see everyone back here in one week's time.
- [54:43]
D
Absolutely. See you all next week. Five, four, three, two and one.
- [54:50]
A
Thanks for listening to this episode of Work Cookie, a CBOC podcast. Don't forget to sign up@cboc.com that's s e b o c.com to engage with our community, gain a sense of belonging, access our other media, and get rapid advice from experts. Would it be a bad idea to make your most challenging workplace problems go away@cbok.com.