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Worldview Legacy | The Think Institute
#206 Was Jesus a Fraud? (Presuppositional Apologetics Debate)
00:18:37
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- [00:00]
A
Servant of Yah, how are you? What's your worldview?
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B
So my worldview is that Jesus was a lie and a fraud. Oh. And so a lot of the New Testament is fabricated. Well, I'm a Jew, so.
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A
Okay.
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B
Yeah. And so I believe Jesus failed as a apocalyptic prophet.
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A
Oh, no. Why? Why do you believe that? What's your best argument for that?
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B
Okay, so my best argument for is in Matthew 16:27 to 28.
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A
Okay, let's pull it up.
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B
All right.
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A
27 to 28.
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B
Yes, that's right.
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A
Okay. Okay. Here's what it says. For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom. Okay. Amen. That's great.
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B
Yes, Amen. So did some there taste deaf or not?
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A
Some did, yes. And some did not. Yeah. They saw Jesus, Peter, James, and John go up with Jesus onto a very high mountain, the Mount of Transfiguration, which is probably Mount Hermon, might have been a different mountain. And they saw Jesus in his glory. And he was. He was standing there with Moses and Elijah representing the law and the prophets, and a cloud overshadows him and the voice of God, of Yahweh, which I'm surprised that you call yourself servants of Yah, by the way, that you're. That you say. Yeah, respectfully, that. That kind of surprises me, because I didn't think that Jewish people said that, but I would have thought you would have said Hashem. But anyway, the. The voice of God the Father speaks to Jesus, speaks to the apostles rather, and says, this is my beloved Son. Listen to him. And Peter, James, and John, therefore saw Jesus in his kingdom glory. Furthermore, though 40 years later, Jesus does come in a. In a type of final judgment. It's a type. It's not the antitype, but it's a type of the final judgment when he judges Jerusalem and the temple is destroyed, exactly as Jesus said that he would do in Matthew 24. So you got to look at the whole picture. Jesus does manifest himself in his kingdom glory in actually right after the passage you just brought us to. And then in Matthew 24, eight chapters later, he predicts the fall of Jerusalem, which is another coming in glory, which then happens exactly when he said it would. And so if Jesus kept both of those predictions, he will certainly come again. And you, sir, are going to have to answer to him. And I suggest that you repent and trust in him as Lord and Savior.
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B
Okay, so why are you running from the passage?
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A
Well, that's a loaded question fallacy. I'm not in any way, shape or form. I just explained the passage to you.
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B
No, because you, well, you really didn't. And let me please explain to you something. So where were the angels on the Mount Transfiguration? And where was the final judgment of the works? So, so Jesus literally says here, right here, verse 27, for the Son of man will come with his angels in the glory of his Father. Then he will reward each person according to what he has done. How come that never happened?
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A
It will happen.
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B
No, but it should have happened before they died, because it says here, assuredly I say to you, there will be some here who will not experience death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom. So yes, that's correct. To accompany angels has to accompany angels and a judgment.
- [03:51]
A
Well, or it's also possible, and this is the actual interpretation, that Jesus Christ comes several times. He comes into Jerusalem riding on a donkey, as the prophets predicted. He is manifested in his kingdom glory on the mount of transfiguration. He returns in, in a sense in judgment on Jerusalem in 70 A.D. this is all stuff that I've already told you, except for the riding on a donkey. And he will come in final judgment with the angels in, in the final judgment when he returns. So the grammar of the passage does not necessitate that every time Jesus comes, He always comes with the angels in final judgment. That's just not required by the passage and it's very clearly not what happened. So that hopefully you can see that I don't expect I've convinced you. But for the Christians who are listening and watching, you can see grammatically that when Jesus says there are some who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom, that was fulfilled at least in 70 A.D. it was also most likely fulfilled on the Mount of Transfiguration and Jesus will come back in final judgment. I also believe that probably angels were involved in the judgment of 70 AD as well. But you know, I, I couldn't necessarily prove that from the text, but my question would be, do you believe in the prophecies of the Old Testament?
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B
So indeed I do. But the question is. So sorry, I don't mean to be a little bit of a harper, but you're not addressing actually what was said in the verse. You actually seems like you're making your. No, absolutely not. Because have a Look here, it says here, reward each person. That means a final judgment.
- [05:25]
A
Yes, that's correct. But that's not what's being referred to in verse 28.
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B
Well, it is, because it says here, for the Son of man will come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. I tell you the truth. There are some standing here. Some standing here?
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A
Yes.
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B
That means that they are present at the time what experience death. But they all died.
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A
What Old Testament passage is Jesus referring to?
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B
Well, there's obviously no Old Testament passage he's referring to. Obviously, there's a judgment. We know that.
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A
There's no Old Testament passage that Jesus is referring to.
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B
Well, not what he's talking about. Because he gets it wrong.
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A
Because there's no old test. You don't think that Jesus is referring to an Old Testament passage?
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B
No, what I'm saying is there is a final judgment, but Jesus is completely wrong here.
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A
Where do we read about that?
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B
He gets the timing wrong.
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A
Where do we read about the Son of. Where do we read about the Son of Man?
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B
Well, if you read the Book of Enoch, you see the Son of Man in the Book of Enoch.
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A
No, no. And also in the Scriptures. The Book of Enoch is not scripture. Go to. Where does the Bible talk about.
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B
Well, part of Jewish scripture as well.
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A
I'm talking about canonical scripture. Where do we read about the Son of Man?
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B
Well, you read about the Son of Man in the Book of Daniel.
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A
There you go. Let's go to Daniel. Daniel, chapter what, which, which chapter?
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B
Daniel, chapter seven.
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A
That's correct. Let's go there.
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B
Okay, let's go there.
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A
In Daniel chapter seven, we see what Jesus is talking about. Start. Look at verse 13. I saw in the night visions. And behold, with the clouds of heaven, there came one like a Son of Man. And he came to the ancient of days and was presented before him. And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom that all peoples, nations and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion which shall not pass away. His kingdom, one that shall not be destroyed. So now fast forward to the passage we were just looking at. And Jesus says that the Son of Man will come in the clouds. Well, let's. Let's go back to the passage. It says that the Son of Man will come with his angels in the glory of his Father. And then, and then he will repay to each person according to what he has done. So before Jesus comes for the final judgment, he has to receive his kingdom. That's what Daniel 7 is prophesying. And that is what Jesus says is going to happen in Matthew or. Sorry, where are we? Matthew 16.
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B
Matthew 16, verse 27 to 28.
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A
Yeah. So Jesus is referring to himself as the Son of Man. Daniel was not a false prophet. Daniel described exactly what. What Jesus did. When Jesus ascended into heaven, he went into the clouds and he sat at the right hand of the Father. Stephen sees Jesus at the right hand of the Father when he's being stoned to death by the Jews who persecuted him. The. The same ones who had killed Jesus. Stephen sees Jesus at the right hand of the father. So Daniel 7 is not a false prophecy either. The Son of Man did go in the clouds to heaven and receive his kingdom from whence he will come with the angels for the final judgment. The disciples got a foretaste of at the Mount of transfiguration. And in 70 AD it all fits together perfectly. Do you see that?
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B
So in the transfiguration, there was no angels, there was no judgment. And when the temple was destroyed, there was no angels and there was no judgment.
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A
No, no, those happen afterwards.
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B
Yeah, but he says it was supposed to happen before the disciples died. Even Jesus goes even further. Can I please read one more passage?
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A
Yes, you can. But before you do, understand that I'm coming from. I'm. I'm coming at this passage believing that. That you. You are aware that the temple was destroyed in 70 AD, right? 67 to 70 AD you. You do know.
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B
Absolutely. I do.
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A
Right. So that was. That was the Son of Man. That was. Yes, that was Jesus's judgment on the city of Jerusalem, just as he said that he would do. So the prophecy of the Son of Man coming has multiple fulfillments.
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B
It.
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A
It happens in part, as prophecies often do. There's a immediate term fulfillment, and then there's a final fulfillment. And Jesus. Jesus says that the Son of Man will come, and then there will be a final judgment. They do not happen simultaneously.
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B
Well, see, Jews don't believe in double fulfillment.
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A
Sounds like a you problem. Respectfully.
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B
Well, no, it's not a you problem. I mean, it's a. It's a. It's a Christian problem. But Jews don't believe in double fulfillment. Okay, so the question is that sounds
- [10:05]
A
like an arbitrary position, but go on. What did you want to talk about?
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B
Okay, so Jesus says here, Matthew, chapter 10, verse 23. And I'm not trying to be contentious or nothing. I'm just trying to.
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A
This is gonna ask.
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B
Absolutely. I'm having a. A lot of fun. Having a debate. But look what it says here. Matthew, Matthew 10:23. Whenever they persecute you in one town, flee to another. For I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
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A
Yes.
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B
So that means the disciples. So according to Jesus, the disciples had to go for all the towns of Israel and they somewhat have to be standing there before he came back and judged.
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A
Yes. So again, 70 A.D. 70 A.D. is the son of Man's judgment on Jerusalem.
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B
Yeah, but it says that they won't go through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes. That means there's a time that means that they had to go through in their lifetime. It literally is saying in their lifetime what people say. It's expanded to a 2000 year a radius. Talking about. I'm not taking that decision. If you're not Jesus failed then. Because it says here some standing. No, no. So it says some here not tasting death. And it also says that they won't go through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
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A
Yes, that's correct.
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B
So, so that means that. That means that Jesus failed because they already went through all the towns and Jesus didn't return.
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A
They went through all the towns before 70 A.D. what's your evidence for that?
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B
But they didn't die. They. They died also. None of them lived forever. So they're all dead.
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A
So again, again, try very hard to understand your opponent's position. When Jesus came. When? When the temple. When Matt.
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B
When Matthew 10:23 and Matthew 16.
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A
When the temple was destroyed. 28 match when the temple was destroyed in 70 AD that's got nothing to
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B
do with the Temple.
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A
Carefully, listen carefully.
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B
Nothing to do with the Temple.
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A
Let's listen carefully. Matthew 24 gives a very clear depiction of what Jesus is talking about when he. When he's talking about the cataclysmic end of the Old Covenant era and the dawning of the New Covenant era. He says not one stone will be left on top of another in the temple. That is exactly what happened in 70 AD. From 67 to 70 AD it happened exactly as Jesus predicted. This is why according to later historians, I believe Eusebius, the Christians were able to get out of Jerusalem, whereas the the non Christian Jewish people actually crowded into the temple thinking that that they would be safe there. But Jesus warned them that when they saw the abomination of desolation standing where it ought not to stand, which was a callback to the intertestamental period with what's his Name Epiphanies invading Jerusalem. The Antiochus Epiphanies invading Jerusalem. Jesus says something like that is going to happen. That is exactly what happened when Titus the General invaded Jerusalem and was standing at the gates outside the city in 67 A.D. jesus warned them exactly what to do. He said go across the rooftops, get out of dodge. According to Eusebius the historian, that is exactly what the Christians did. And lo and behold, the, the days were shortened. The the general Titus actually withdrew from the city, miraculously giving the Christians an opportunity to escape. Then he attacked the non believing Jewish people, meaning those who did not believe in Jesus the Messiah were actually slaughtered within the city because they did not listen to the Messiah. They should have listened to the Messiah. It was, it was horrible. It was a horrible catastrophe on the city of Jerusalem. But it's exactly as Jesus said. That was God's judgment on the unbelieving Jewish people who did not believe in the Messiah. The Messiah had been predicted. Jesus Christ died according to the Scriptures. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15 so.
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B
Oh no, no, that's not true.
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A
Well it is true because Daniel. Daniel Chapter 7. Daniel Chapter 7 talks about the Daniel 7, 9 talks about the how the Messiah would be cut off. Isaiah 53. Have you ever read Isaiah 53? You don't read it in your synagogues. Have you ever read it?
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B
Well, I've actually read Isaiah 53 and I actually know there's no Jesus interpretation for it.
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A
There's no Jesus interpretation for Isaiah 53.
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B
Absolutely.
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A
Only respectfully. Only if you are willfully blind. We can go there right now if you'd like.
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B
Absolutely not. I mean I have to be for another time because. A little bit bigger. But my question is why do you keep. Why do you keep pivoting from the actual verse? You keep going all around and jumping around.
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A
But you don't, you don't accept my interpretation of it. I've told you I've. You're not accepting it as. Has no bearing on the but what
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B
about Jesus interpretation argument.
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A
You, you not accepting that is. Is totally irrelevant. Respectfully, but it's.
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B
I get it. But what, what about Jesus actual interpretation of his own words? He literally says here. So what is it? I want to ask you a question. What does the term there will be some standing here mean?
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A
Listen, I don't know if I can make my position any more clear to you. Those to whom Jesus was speaking, Some of them listen very, very carefully.
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B
What does something very important.
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A
Listen to your opponent.
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B
I just want to know the term what you think of it.
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A
It's very important that you listen to your opponent. Those who are standing here means some within his audience would live until Jesus came in his kingdom.
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B
But he didn't come, so it failed.
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A
Then that is your assumption. That is not what the text says. And that's. But you just said, historically speaking, you have to. You have to listen because I'm giving you the explanation. Every time you interrupt, you're cutting yourself off from the truth. It's as if a veil is over your. Your heart as the scripture is being explained to you. Just like Moses had a veil over his face when he came down from Mount Sinai so that. So that what was passing away so that the end of what was passing away would not be seen by the Jewish people. You are being like your ancestors in that you have a veil that is over your heart as the scriptures are being explained to you. So Jesus says that there are some who are standing in his presence who will be alive when he comes in his kingdom. That means that him coming in his kingdom.
- [16:18]
B
Wow. Doesn't that mean a funnel?
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A
That means that Jesus coming in his kingdom had to have happened within their lifetimes. That.
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B
That the earthly kingdom had to act.
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A
What happened?
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B
So no, the earthly kingdom didn't come.
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A
What happened?
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B
No, no, the earthly kingdom didn't come.
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A
Well, I'm part of his kingdom. I'm part of his kingdom right now. And you can be if you repent and trust in him.
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B
I'm not talking about invisible kingdoms. I'm talking about real tangible kingdom. He's talking about real tangible kingdom.
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A
So. So the Messiah doesn't do it the way you wanted.
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B
Well, it's not. The Messiah doesn't do it the way it wanted. The Messiah does it way according to the Hebrew scriptures. But my point being is the Hebrew
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A
scripture said that the Messiah. Real quick. The Hebrew scripture said that the Messiah would. Would go in the clouds before the ancient of days and would receive a kingdom and a dominion that would last forever. That has happened.
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B
That's not. No, that. That's the kingdom. No, no. So the Messiah is actually supposed to basically liberate Israel from her enemies.
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A
You need to read that.
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B
He's. Yeah, he's supposed to also set up the. The temple. And also.
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A
And he has sacrificed.
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B
Yeah, but.
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A
Yes.
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B
Yeah, but instead of him building the temple, the temple got destroyed.
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A
He has set up the temple. I'm in it. I'm part of it. I'm one of the living stones within it.
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B
I'm not talking about visible temples. I'm talking about real temples.
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A
I understand.
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B
Tangible temple.
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A
No, no, that's a false dichotomy. Physical. There are certain things. There are certain things that are real that are not physical. We're not materialists. So a real Third Temple is the Church. The church is the real Third Temple. Just because it's not physical, that's tangible? Well, yeah, You're. You're actually talking like a materialist atheist right now.
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B
No, no, no, I'm saying. What I'm saying is that Jesus said that the kingdom will be tangible and there will be a judgment and there will be people.
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A
Jesus came exactly as he said he would. He destroyed the temple.
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B
Yeah, but what does some standing here mean?
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A
Okay, now we're just going in circles. I've explained that to you three or four times.
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B
No, no, no.
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A
Good talking.
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B
No, because you kept pivoting. You kept pivoting. Why did you keep pivoting for.
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A
Yeah, thank you.
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B
Good talking with you, but you kept pivoting, sir.
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A
Why, thank you.
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B
We.
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A
We are out of time. But you gotta go.
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B
I know, but he kept. Next time.
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A
Are you gonna. Next time, I'm gonna leave about the. Yeah.
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B
We can talk standing here.
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A
Thank you.