#218 Protestant vs. Orthodox Debate: He Says He’s Not a Bible Guy

Summary

Podcast Summary: Worldview Legacy Ep. 218

Protestant vs. Orthodox Debate: He Says He’s Not a Bible Guy

Date: July 6, 2026
Host: Joel Settecase (The Think Institute)
Guests: "Milton Friedman" (Orthodox perspective)

---

Episode Overview

This episode centers on a lively debate between Joel Settecase, presenting a Protestant (specifically Calvinist) perspective, and “Milton Friedman,” who represents the Oriental Orthodox position. The conversation revolves around foundational differences in how Protestants and the Orthodox relate to Scripture, tradition, and the doctrines classified as "Calvinism." The tone is passionate and at times confrontational, focusing on whether Protestant (Reformed) theology aligns with the Bible, the importance of tradition and church authority, and why one should or should not be "a Bible guy."

---

Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Opening Banter and Framing the Debate

[00:00–01:01]

• Some opening humor about prior disagreements and technical issues.
• Milton clarifies he didn't know Joel was a Calvinist in their last exchange and wants a civil discussion.
• Topic quickly narrows to Calvinism and sola scriptura (Scripture alone as authority).

2. Tradition vs. Scriptural Authority

[01:01–03:27]

• Milton criticizes Calvinism for lacking 2000 years of tradition:

  “Calvinism doesn’t follow the 2000 years of tradition.” (B, 00:57)

• Joel dismisses tradition as ultimate authority:

  “Oh, I don’t care about that. Show me from the Bible.” (C, 01:01)

3. Debating Free Will and Human Nature

[01:35–06:49]

• Milton tries to frame free will theologically, linking it to the imago Dei (image of God).
• Joel argues Calvinism’s concept of total depravity and denies "libertarian free will":

  “Absolute freedom is not a communicable attribute of God… Nowhere in the Bible does it teach that man has libertarian free will where he can choose against his nature.” (C, 06:06)

• Joel points to Romans 8:7:

  “For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God… it does not submit to God’s law. Indeed, it cannot.” (C, 03:00)

• Milton resists this interpretation, leading to a back-and-forth about textual authority and who gets to interpret it.

4. Orthodox Approach to Scripture

[06:49–07:18]

• Milton candidly admits:

  “I’m not like a biblical dude. Like, because as an orthodox dude, the Bible is for liturgical purposes.” (B, 06:49)

• Joel highlights this as the crux of their difference:

  “That’s the difference between you and me… I keep my Bible with me…and I refer to it always because the Bible is my standard.” (C, 07:18)

5. The Source of Biblical Canon & Authority

[07:39–09:54]

• Milton asserts the Orthodox Church canonized Scripture and has apostolic succession:

  “You’re keeping this Bible with you? The Bible that my church canonized.” (B, 07:27)

• Joel counters that soteriology (doctrine of salvation) in Calvinism is aligned with Paul and Augustine, not simply John Calvin:

  “The theology of Calvin is the same…as St. Augustine…and the apostle Paul. That’s why I took you to Romans…” (C, 08:36)

• The debate intensifies regarding historical continuity, succession, and authenticity.

6. Is Calvinism Taught by Jesus?

[09:54–10:53]

• Joel insists Calvinism is taught by Jesus, citing John 6:44 and Ephesians 1:

  “Jesus taught Calvinism. We read about it in John 6…No one can come to me unless the Father…draws him…” (C, 10:05)

• He frames the Protestant Reformation as a “retrieval of biblical soteriology and theology.”

7. Who Gave Us the Bible?

[10:53–11:03]

• Milton presses:

  “Who canonized the Scriptures?” (B, 10:58)

• Joel:

  “The church of God. The Holy Spirit of God.” (C, 11:03)

8. Apostolic Succession & Who Interprets Scripture

[11:03–11:51]

• Milton traces his church to St. Mark, claiming direct apostolic lineage:

  “I can trace my church back to St. Mark, who was called the Son himself by Peter.” (B, 11:26)

• Joel doubts this ensures proper doctrine, emphasizing Scripture over institution:

  “Give me God’s word above man’s word all day. So no, I’m not cooked. I love God’s word and I’m going to stick with it.” (C, 13:38)

9. Climax: Authority, Interpretation, and Salvation

[12:49–16:16]

• Joel mutes Milton to finish his critique:
• Key moment:

  “He is a self-proclaimed non Bible person and yet he wants to try to debate someone who is a Bible person on what the Bible actually says.” (C, 13:17)

• Joel emphasizes the distinction:

  “Scripture is true and man’s word is false when it contradicts with Scripture every time, all day long.” (C, 13:34)

• Milton’s final objection:

  “Who preserved the word? Was it man or not?” (B, 15:13)

• Joel:

  “It was the Holy Spirit.” (C, 15:21)

• Milton:

  “How do you know you have the Holy Spirit?” (B, 15:29)

• Joel’s answer:

  “Because I believe in Jesus.” (C, 15:32)

• Ends with evangelistic appeal by Joel to believe the Gospel and be saved.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I’m not like a biblical dude...the Bible is for liturgical purposes.”
  – Milton (B, 06:49)
• “That’s the difference between you and me...the Bible is my standard.”
  – Joel (C, 07:18)
• “Give me God’s word above man’s word all day.”
  – Joel (C, 13:38)
• “Jesus taught Calvinism. We read about it in John 6.”
  – Joel (C, 10:05)
• “Your church doesn’t have a genealogy back to Paul.”
  – Milton (B, 09:12)

---

Key Timestamps

• 00:39 — Are you a Calvinist? Debate over Sola Scriptura & tradition begins.
• 02:41 — Romans 8:7 quoted; disagreement on human ability to obey God’s law.
• 06:49 — Milton: “Not a biblical dude”—sets info Orthodox lens on Scripture.
• 07:18 — Joel: “Bible is my standard and I refer to it always.”
• 09:54 — “Jesus taught Calvinism.”
• 11:26 — Milton: “Trace my church back to St Mark…”
• 13:13 — “Self-proclaimed non-Bible person…”
• 14:53 — Milton’s closing challenge: “Who preserved the Word?”
• 16:01 — Joel’s evangelistic call (“in him you also, when you heard the word of truth…”)

---

Conclusion

This episode provides a vivid showcase of the sharp contrasts between Protestant (especially Calvinist) and Oriental Orthodox theology—not just in doctrine, but in foundational sources of authority. The heart of their division lies in the relationship to Scripture: Joel confidently asserts that the Bible alone is the standard for faith and practice, while Milton roots his authority in the apostolic succession and the role of the church, relegating Scripture to a liturgical role. The debate is pointed, passionate, and often circular, but ultimately highlights why the Protestant vs. Orthodox dialogue is perennial, complicated, and deeply consequential for anyone wrestling with Christian identity and doctrine.

---

For listeners seeking to understand the Protestant-Orthodox divide, this episode is a fiery and candid primer on the stakes and distinctives of each side’s worldview leadership approach.

Transcript

[A]

Milton Friedman. What's up, Millen? First of all, so we didn't realize that you were blocked. And I couldn't see it at first, and then Joel, that's why. So sorry about that.

[B]

Well, I was trying to tell you guys, but, you know, you guys didn't want to believe, you know, so.

[C]

I know we didn't want to believe. We didn't want to believe much like you don't want to believe in solo scriptura. So let's talk about that. Hey, hey, Milton Friedman. Last time. Last time you lost it. Last time you lost it. You gotta. You gotta behave yourself today, okay? You gotta promise me. You gotta behave yourself. I'm giving you fair warning, man. Behave like a man. Behave like a gentleman.

[B]

Listen, let's just have a conversation, bro. Let's just have a conversation.

[C]

That's literally what I'm saying. All right?

[B]

Okay. Can I ask you a question, though? Because. Are you a Calvinist?

[D]

Of course.

[B]

Okay. Because I didn't realize you were a Calvinist the last time we spoke.

[C]

So what's your best argument for rejecting Calvinism?

[B]

Or.

[C]

Or do you want to talk about solar scripture?

[B]

Because Calvinism doesn't follow the 2000 years of tradition.

[C]

Oh, I don't care about that. Show me from the Bible.

[B]

Care about the tradition of Christ. Are you kidding me?

[C]

Show me from the Bible.

[B]

Let me show you from the Bible. What? There's no. There's no teachings of Calvinism in the Bible.

[C]

Prove it.

[B]

This is sprained up 1500 years after the teachings of Christ.

[C]

Prove it.

[B]

What do you mean, prove it? Prove it. Okay, let me ask you this. Let me. Let me ask you this. Let me ask you this. Does. Does God have free will?

[C]

Yes. God is free.

[B]

He will. That's the question that I asked.

[C]

God is free.

[B]

I'm asking you, does God have free will? Yes or no?

[C]

Define free will.

[B]

Does God have the ability to act on his own without any external constraints?

[C]

Yes. You still there?

[B]

Oh, I'm sorry. All right, so, great. Are we created in God's image?

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Okay, great. So we're a reflection of God, right?

[C]

Correct.

[B]

Okay, great. So one of those reflections will be we have free will. Correct. Wrong. Wrong. Okay, go ahead, elaborate.

[C]

We don't have libertarian free will. Define free will. Oh, you already defined it. No, we. We are constrained by our nature. Those who are in the flesh. Let me ask you this. Can someone who's in the flesh listen, please. Can someone who is in the flesh with the mindset on the flesh obey God's law?

[B]

Can somebody obey God's? Law or not obeys God's law? You talking about free will?

[C]

No, I'm. Yes, I'm asking you about. About free will. Can a mind that is set on the flesh submit to God's law?

[B]

Absolutely.

[C]

Okay, what does Romans 8. 7 say?

[B]

You tell me.

[C]

For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law. Indeed, it cannot. Do you want to change your answer?

[B]

No, I don't want to change my answer.

[C]

Then you disagree with Paul, not me.

[B]

What are you talking about? How do you. First of all, how do you even know you have the right interpretation?

[C]

Read the words and you tell me what it says.

[B]

I can read the words. That doesn't matter. How do you know you have the right interpretations of the word?

[C]

Correct.

[B]

Correct.

[C]

My interpretation. I'm reading what it says. What's my interpretation? What's my interpretation? Here's my interpretation. Listen to my interpretation. The mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God for it does not submit to God's law. Indeed it cannot. That's my interpretation.

[B]

Okay, so why would God say, forgive them, for they know not what they do?

[C]

Hold on a second. What's. How is my. That's not in this text. Explain how my interpretation of the text

[B]

is right, saying that man does not have. What are you trying to imply here? Like.

[C]

I'm not implying, I'm reading.

[B]

Okay, so what are you interpreting from your reading? What do you. Why even read if there's no.

[C]

Here's what I'm interpreting. You ready? Here's what I'm interpreting.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

And I'm not being snarky here, but listen. The mind. The mind set on the flesh is hostile to God for it does not submit to God's law. Indeed, it cannot. You said the mindset on the flesh can submit to God's law. I read to you what Romans 8. 7 says where Paul says it cannot. That's my interpretation, is that it cannot.

[B]

Okay, but that goes back to the question I originally asked you. Are we made in God's image? Yes or no?

[C]

We are. And we're sinful, fallen human beings. And this is why I'm a Calvinist, because the Bible teaches that Calvinism agrees with it. Calvinism teaches total depravity. Total depravity means that you're not as sinful as you could be. But every part of you, every faculty, is tainted by sin. And that's why the mindset on the flesh cannot please God. It does not do what God commands it Cannot submit to God's law. Now, I read to you what Paul said. You said the opposite of what Paul said. Do you want to change your answer or do you want to continue disagreeing with Paul?

[B]

Dude, see, this is. This is why, like, the conversation the last time got exciting because you just go on these monologues, bro. Like, what I'm trying to ask you is if God. If. If we are made in God's image, when did that restraint or when that reflection. When did we lose our reflection of God?

[C]

Genesis 3.

[B]

Okay? Read Genesis 3.

[C]

Genesis 3 is where the fall is. I'm not going to read the whole chapter, but in Genesis 3, Adam falls. Now, here's the thing. I want you to hear me on this. We don't lose the imago dei. We still bear God's image. If that were not true, then there would be no capital punishment for sin.

[B]

Okay?

[C]

There would be real, real quick. There would be no redemption, okay, if we completely lost the image of God. But.

[B]

Right.

[C]

The free will, the ability. The ability. Man is not. Let me put it, Put it this way. Absolute freedom is not a communicable attribute of God. Nowhere in the Bible does it teach that man has libertarian free will where he can choose against his nature. In fact, the Bible teaches the exact opposite. That's why I took you directly to Romans 8, because the Romans 8 is a great and clear passage that teaches that it's not only that the mindset in the flesh does not submit to God's law, it's that it cannot. Do you see that? Milton? You still there?

[B]

Oh, my bad, my bad. I'm having a problem because I'm trying to go back to the notes just to let you know, I'm not like a biblical dude. Like, because as an orthodox dude, the Bible is for liturgical purposes. It's not for us to just take outside, like, on date. Like, we just take the word of God out on the date and, like, we swag it out. You know what I mean? So I'm trying to look at the. My notes, but are you still there?

[C]

I'm still here. And that's the difference between you and me. That's the difference between you and me is I keep my Bible with me and I refer to it often and I refer to it always because the Bible is my standard.

[B]

You're keeping this Bible with. With you? That. The Bible that my church canonized.

[C]

Hey, thanks a lot. You should use it.

[B]

What do you mean? What? I. I should use it to do what?

[C]

Well, for example, find out if the mindset in the flesh can please God and submit to his law.

[B]

How do you know you have the right interpretation when your church was established 1500 years after the church.

[C]

My church was established 2000 years ago

[B]

in Matthew, 18,000 years ago. Prove that.

[C]

I literally just did.

[B]

No, you didn't. Nobody was preaching Calvinist. As a matter of fact, when you look up John Calvin, it strictly says that he broke away from the Roman Catholic Church. It says that literally, like broke. Like if you look up John Calvin, it says he broke away from the Roman Catholic Church which has apostolic succession. Your church cannot go back into the apostolic secession of the church. So what are you talking about?

[C]

Milton?

[B]

What?

[C]

I can. I want to say this very respectfully because you told me you're not a Bible person. Listen to me, listen to me. The theology, the theology of Calvin is the same. The soteriology of Calvin, Calvin is the Same soteriology of St. Augustine and the soteriology of St. Augustine is the same soteriology of the apostle Paul. That's why I took you to Romans and that's why I was very careful. I did not read you the dictate of a council. I did not read you my favorite Protestant commentator. I read you Paul. So you're the one bringing Calvin. I'm reading Paul.

[B]

Your church doesn't have a genealogy back to Paul though. Sure, it has a genealogy back to John. John Calvin.

[C]

Sure it doesn't. You said. Wait, now, wait a minute. By your own standard, by your own standard, Calvin came out of the Catholic Church. That's apostolic succession.

[B]

Let me, you stop me in mid like sentence, bro.

[C]

Like, let me go ahead.

[B]

Okay, great. So your church's genealogy doesn't go back to the apostles. There's no apostle that John Calvin's church goes back to at all. They weren't teaching Calvinism back in the apostle. The apostolic times.

[C]

Jesus taught it.

[B]

Jesus taught. What are you talking about? Jesus taught that. So Jesus wasn't a universal Christ. He wasn't universal.

[C]

Jesus is the universal Christ. Jesus taught Calvinism. We read about it in John 6. Romans. Don't cut me off if you don't want me cutting you off. John 6:44. Jesus says no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up on the last day. The apostle Paul teaches Calvinism. If you want to call it that. I don't. I mean I don't, I don't care if you call it that or not. In Ephesians 1:3 14. Now listen, I'm going To tell you this, and I don't mean any disrespect by it, I'm gonna. I'm just tell you this straight up, then I'm gonna let you say your piece. The reason why you don't know that Calvinistic doctrine is taught in the Bible is because you've believed a misrepresentation of history. You think that Cal invented Calvinism? He didn't. The Protestant Reformation was a retrieval of biblical soteriology and theology.

[B]

A retrieval from where? What were they retrieving it from?

[C]

Scripture.

[B]

From Scripture. And who canonized the Scriptures?

[C]

The church of God.

[B]

The Holy Spirit of God. Right.

[C]

And then the Holy Spirit working through the churches. Yeah. Not your church. Not your church. Oriental. You're Oriental Orthodox, right?

[B]

Absolutely, baby.

[C]

Okay, so you say that your church canonized it.

[B]

Absolutely. Because I track my church back into St Mark.

[C]

Listen,

[B]

stop, just real quick. I can trace my church back to St Mark, who was called the Son himself by Peter. I could trace my church back to the apostles. You can't. You about done, Bobby Bag, bro? He's done.

[C]

Milton, are you done?

[B]

No, you're cooked, bro. Go ahead, try to raise Calvinism back to Milton.

[C]

Milton.

[B]

What?

[C]

I wanted. I wanted to give you a hearing. Me pausing. I'm not pausing because I'm speechless. I'm pausing to give you a chance to actually make your argument. Because at no point in this conversation have you even remotely attempted to disprove the verses that I shared with you, which you straight up contradicted. Milton, you contradicted the Apostle Paul. I asked you if a mindset in the flesh can. Can obey God's law. You said no. Paul said yes. I read you Paul's words and you said you didn't like my interpretation. Then you went on something about how your church canonized scripture. Guess the canon was formed by the Holy Spirit working through the universal church. Milton, I gave you an opportunity and I waited, bro.

[B]

I said you have.

[C]

No, I gave you an opportunity and now I gotta mute you. Now, you said that your church, the Eastern or the Oriental Orthodox Church in particular, canonized the church. And yes, I do have Milton muted right now. Guys, I did give Milton an opportunity to say his piece, did I not? And he used that to try to mock me and say that I was speechless and that I was cooked. But now I'm going to set Milton straight. I'm going to teach him something. He says that the. That the Oriental Orthodox Church is responsible for the canon. If that were true. And it's not. But if it were True. Then Milton indicts himself by saying he's not a Bible guy and he only uses the Bible for liturgical purposes. He is a self proclaimed non Bible person and yet he wants to try to debate someone who is a Bible person on what the Bible actually says. Milton is in no condition to do this. Not because I'm super smart, but because he doesn't know what the Scripture teaches. He doesn't know about John 6:44. He doesn't know about Ephesians chapter 1. He doesn't know about Romans chapter 8, or Romans chapter 9, or Romans chapter 10. He doesn't know about these verses because his church doesn't encourage him to read Scripture. It says, trust me, bro, I'll tell you what the Bible says. But the problem is Milton has been sold the bill of goods. He thinks that because he can supposedly trace his current bishop back via apostolic succession, he doesn't need to know what the Bible says. And he thinks that plainly reading the Scripture is taking an interpretation. But that gives the game away for the Eastern Orthodox, I mean the Oriental Orthodox Church. Because if you have to disagree with someone who is plainly reading Scripture because you don't agree with his interpretation, but he's not interpreting and he's just reading it, then you interpret scripture wrongly because Scripture is true and man's word is false when it contradicts with Scripture every time, all day long. Give me God's word above man's word all day. So no, I'm not cooked. I love God's word and I'm going to stick with it. And if I'm wrong, you're going to have to show me from the word of God, period. Melanoma. Unmute. You take 30 seconds.

[B]

Okay, great. So you just said that. You just said that. Who preserved the word, Was it man or who preserved the word? Was it man or not?

[C]

This is your 32nd closing.

[B]

Oh, I gotta close now, bro. Whatever.

[C]

I'm not your bro, Milton.

[B]

Yeah, I know you're not my bro. So who preserved the world? Was it man?

[C]

It was the Holy Spirit.

[B]

The Holy Spirit. You just grant that? How do you know?

[C]

This is your closing note and you got like 10 seconds left.

[B]

How do you know you have the Holy Spirit?

[C]

Because I believe in Jesus, okay?

[B]

And so does Muslims. They believe in Jesus too. They believe he was a prophet too. Why are you laughing? Do Muslims not believe that Jesus was a prophet? Yes or no?

[C]

This is your closing. Are you done?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, whatever bro. You so scared.

[C]

Thanks, Milton.

[A]

I would go with Milton.

[C]

Thanks, Milton. All right, let's just go to Ephesians real quick. I'm going to give my closing now.

[B]

In

[C]

Ephesians, chapter 1, verse 13, it says, in him, you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit. Muslims don't have the Holy Spirit. They don't believe in Jesus. They don't. The word of truth is not that Jesus was a mere man who was a prophet of Allah. Milton doesn't know that because Milton doesn't read the Bible. This is an indictment against every movement that tells its followers that the Bible is for liturgical purposes only. You might as well consider it an ornament. You might as well put it on your mantle and never read it. We do not take man's word for what the Bible says. We read it, we believe it, we obey it. I don't grant myself the Holy Spirit, and I don't need Milton's church to tell me what the Bible says. I can open it up and I can read what it says. And according to the Bible, when I believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, when I heard the word of truth, which is the gospel, which Milton's church doesn't teach, not if Milton is any representative. When I believe the Gospel, I received the Holy Spirit. And I want to invite anyone who's listening to this. Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins. He was buried and he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures. He was seen by eyewitnesses, including Peter, John and James, as well as the rest of the 12, as well as 500 at a single time. And Jesus Christ has ascended to the right hand of the Father. And Jesus is literally giving out salvation and eternal life to everyone who believes in him as Savior and Lord, and receives him as Savior and Lord. And I invite you, if you're watching this right now, and you've been on the fence, maybe you've been watching these streams for months, maybe even over a year now, and you've heard the Gospel message, but you've never trusted in Jesus Christ. Let today be the day, Milton. I say the same to you. Repent, turn to the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved. And then I'll be your bro. Because we'll have the same heavenly Father.

[B]

All right, I went for a little bit.

[A]

That was good.

[C]

He doesn't take the Bible out on dates.

[D]

Okay. Unreal. You're a Christian man. You want to build a legacy, answer the world's questions, and lay down a solid foundation for your family in God's word. But everywhere you live look, you see decline, disorder, chaos. Your neighbors don't know the Lord and too many churches are filled with apathy. In today's world, we need men who understand theology, know scripture and who are committed to leading their families in the biblical worldview. That is why we're building the Hammer and Anvil Society. The ultimate discipleship community. Community for Christian men. With weekly cohort calls, a full library of resources and courses, weekly challenges and live teaching. You're going to sharpen your mind and your character. Our full library of courses is going to help you deepen your knowledge in the Christian worldview family, discipleship and apologetics, the defense of your faith. But it's not just about building your knowledge base. As important as that is, it's also about brotherhood. That's why you'll also have access to an online community and live cohort calls live teaching and real accountability so you can have fellowship with like minded brothers who are on the same journey as you. Member Kevin says the Hammer and Anvil Society has been the most beneficial thing for my family's spiritual growth in years. This unique brotherhood has made me more bold in my witness and more sensitive to God's leading. AJ says Today I stand stronger and more rooted in my faith. The Hammer and Anvil Society has been instrumental in transforming me into the man of God I am striving to be. Get unlimited access as a member or try out a single course in the subject of your choice. Learn more now. Go to the free think.instute society. Get equipped. Build your legacy in community. Join today.