#222 Orthobro vs. Protestant Christian Debate Over Scripture: Who Has Final Authority?

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: Worldview Legacy | The Think Institute
Episode: #222 “Orthobro vs. Protestant Christian Debate Over Scripture: Who Has Final Authority?”
Host: Joel Settecase
Date: July 20, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Joel Settecase (Protestant/Evangelical perspective) engages in a rigorous debate with John Mondragon, who represents the Eastern Orthodox tradition. Their discussion centers on the fundamental issue of ultimate authority in Christianity: Is it the Church, as maintained by Orthodoxy, or the Scriptures themselves, as asserted by Sola Scriptura Protestants? The debate unpacks the processes by which spiritual authority is recognized, the canon of Scripture is determined, and the way each tradition justifies its starting assumptions. Both sides challenge each other on reasoning, presuppositions, and historical claims regarding how believers should discern spiritual truth.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Definitions of the Church and Entrance to It

• How Do You Enter the True Church?
  • John (Orthodox): Through catechesis, learning doctrine, and baptism as per Orthodox tradition and apostolic succession. (00:54)
  • Joel (Protestant): By repenting and trusting in Jesus Christ, as taught by Scripture. No specific ecclesiastical process is required. (02:06)

2. Basis for Ultimate Authority

• Orthodox Perspective:
  • Tradition, apostolic succession, Church councils, synods, and the guidance of the Holy Spirit through these means.
  • John: “Through the Holy Spirit, through the, the un infallible counsel of the church fathers and the apostles that we have. They were the ones that guided the Church before there was the canon.” (09:02)
• Protestant Perspective:
  • Scripture is the final test and norm for doctrine and practice; it contains clear bounds and limits.
  • Joel: “I start with scripture and scripture tells me how to be saved, how to join Christ's universal church…” (04:18)

3. The "Circularity" of Authority

• Joel's Challenge:
  • Accuses the Orthodox position of starting with the presupposition that their Church is true, leading to a self-justifying (circular) claim of authority.
  • “You've got your circle, which starts with the Church and ends with the Church and never gets beyond the Church… If you want to call that vicious, you can… I've got my circle. It starts with scripture and it encompasses all of reality.” (04:16)
• John’s Challenge:
  • Counters that Protestants also presuppose the authority of their Scriptures, which is another kind of circularity.
  • “You're starting off with the presupposition that you already have scripture and… I'm just supposed to grant it to Scripture. Where did it come from?” (03:29)

4. The Canon of Scripture: Who Decides?

• Orthodox View:
  • The canon was recognized and determined through councils, synods, and the teachings of the Church Fathers, under the Holy Spirit’s guidance.
  • John: “But it was canonized through the church... through that we know what were supposed to be canonized.” (21:40, 23:13)
• Protestant View:
  • The canon is recognized by the people of God, authenticated by clear standards: W.A.T.R for OT (Written by a prophet, Accompanied by miracles, Teaching truth, Recognized by God’s people) and C.O.L.A for NT (Catholic, Orthodox, Liturgical, Apostolic).
  • Joel: “There was no Eastern Orthodox Church that told us which 66 books belong in the Old Testament... acknowledged by the people of God, the nation of Israel, as being inspired by God.” (16:53)
  • “Old Testament books were recognized over time... Jesus affirmed it. We take it on Christ’s authority.” (16:53–18:11)

5. The Need for Bounded Authority vs. Nebulous Authority

• Joel Demands Clarity:
  • Presses for an authoritative “list” of councils, synods, traditions, and Church Fathers to which an Orthodox Christian must submit, arguing that Orthodoxy lacks clear boundaries.
  • “What are the terms of service that you want me to sign off on? Where are the bounds and the limits of your church's authority and how do you know?” (08:22)
• John:
  • Rebuts that the Holy Spirit works through all relevant councils and Church Fathers but declines to specify an exhaustive, authoritative list.

6. Presuppositional Reasoning & Application to Authority

• Explicit Recognition: Both debaters agree (15:28–15:39) that their approaches are grounded in different epistemological “systems” or presuppositions.
  • John: “We are coming at two different thought systems.”
  • Joel: “Yeah, absolutely. 100. So we agree on that. Good.”

7. The Claim of Relativism vs. Church Submission

• John:
  • “My position [is to] submit under Christ in the church. And your submission is just submit under your relativity.” (15:40)
• Joel:
  • Strongly refutes this as a straw man: “That [is] 100% false. That's a straw man. And I don't accept that. No.” (15:46)

8. The Gospel and Salvation

• Joel's Gospel Appeal:
  • Makes a passionate case that the essential message for salvation must be clear, scriptural, and not mediated or altered by church authorities.
  • “No church can offer it to you, no man-made institution can offer to you. No synod, no council... It comes from the Holy Spirit, making you born again as you trust in the Lord Jesus Christ.” (28:19)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Joel (to John):
  “You have a... authority with nebulous boundaries. You don't know where the boundaries end and begin of your ultimate authority. But you've surrendered your... reasoning to an undefined set of authorities...” (14:16)

• John:
  “We all assume things at the end of the day, okay?” (12:15)
  “It was canonized through the church.” (21:40)

• Joel (about the Gospel):
  “Paul lays it out in 1st Corinthians 15: Jesus Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures. He was buried, and on the third day he was raised...” (28:19)

• Joel (critiquing Orthodoxy):
  “You've given up your birthright for a mess of pottage, John. You've been like Esau, John. And you need to trust in the Lord Jesus Christ.” (24:34)

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Important Segments & Timestamps

• Intro and Framing the Issue (00:00–02:27)
• Defining Church Membership & Authority (02:27–04:18)
• Debate over "Circular" Authority (04:18–07:59)
• Pressing for Canonical List / Boundaries of Authority (07:59–11:29)
• Meta-Epistemological Agreement: Different Worldviews (15:28–15:39)
• The Canon Question Intensifies (16:16–23:14)
• Joel Charts the Protestant Criteria for Canon (17:47–19:17)
• Orthodox Councils and the Lack of a Singular Authoritative Council (22:56–23:14)
• Joel’s Rhetorical Climax: The ‘Esau’ Moment (24:34)
• The Gospel According to Joel (28:19)

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Summary Table: Key Points of Contrast

| Topic | Eastern Orthodox (John) | Protestant/Evangelical (Joel) | |--------------------------|----------------------------------------|------------------------------------------| | Entrance to Church | Catechesis, Baptism, Apostolic Succ. | Faith in Jesus Christ per Scripture | | Final Authority | Church, Councils, Synods, Tradition | Scripture Alone (Sola Scriptura) | | Basis for Authority | Holy Spirit speaks via Church | Holy Spirit inspired/final word in Bible | | Canon Formation | Recognized, canonized by Church | Recognized by God’s people by criteria | | Authority Boundaries | No fixed, exhaustive list given | 66 Books, Genesis to Revelation | | Handling Disagreement | Appeals to wider Tradition, not fixed | Test all things by Scripture | | The Gospel | Received via Church & tradition | Justification by grace alone, faith alone|

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Closing Thoughts

This debate spotlights the deep division between Orthodox and Protestant models of spiritual authority: one rooted in historical continuity and living tradition, the other in self-authenticating and self-contained Scripture. Through persistent questioning, Joel highlights the Protestant desire for fixed, knowable boundaries of authority and lays out a Scriptural basis for those boundaries. John stands by the Church’s role and the necessity of trust in historical continuity empowered by the Holy Spirit, even if the boundaries remain less clearly delineated.

The dialogue ultimately reveals not only apologetic differences, but two very different ways of “knowing” and being certain in the Christian life—a point both debaters recognize by the end.

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Transcript

[Joel]

All right, so. So talk to me. So you're an Eastern Orthodox. What do you want to debate tonight?

[John]

Okay, well, it was kind of the same thing that I was actually supposed to talk to JP about, but he kind of backed out about it. When. When you guys say that Eastern Orthodoxy is incorrect, on what standards do you guys say it's incorrect? Because I can just like, reverse tag. Yeah, but I can just reverse tag on you and say, how do you appeal to scripture? When. Through Eastern or through the Orthodox Church and through the church that was created by Jesus Christ and the apostles.

[Joel]

That's the one I'm a part of.

[John]

Well, then you would be a part of the Orthodox Church.

[Joel]

I am Orthodox in my belief, but I'm not part of the Eastern Orthodox Church. So the way that we test. How do you know if you're part of the. The. How do you know if you're part of the universal church, John?

[John]

You would become a cat. A catechumen. You would go to catechesis. You will learn the faith, learn the doctrines, and be baptized.

[Joel]

How do you. How do you know that that will induct you into the universal church of Christ?

[John]

We would have our traditions and we would have apostolic succession.

[Joel]

Okay, and how do you know that your. Your traditions and your apostolic succession are valid?

[John]

Because we would have the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit would want us to know the truth.

[Joel]

Okay, and how does the Holy Spirit reveal these things to you?

[John]

Through its councils.

[Joel]

Its councils?

[John]

Synods. Through his councils.

[Joel]

The council and synods of the. Of the Orthodox Church. Is that circular?

[John]

Well, it's not vicious circular.

[Joel]

So you're starting. You're starting with the presupposition that. That your church is the true church. And when you're true, when your church tells you it's the true church, you believe it. Is that. Yeah, that's cool.

[John]

But I asked you, like, how would you be able to judge that by Scripture?

[Joel]

I don't. I don't have that standard. I don't think that the way that you enter into the true church is by becoming a catechumen in the Eastern Orthodox Church.

[John]

So then how did the early church become a part of the church? I mean, how did somebody become a part of the church? Earth?

[Joel]

By repenting and trusting in the Lord Jesus Christ.

[John]

That's it? Yeah, that's it. There was. There was no church. There was no process. There was nothing.

[Joel]

Well, you. Your. Your method is you start from the idea that the Eastern Orthodox Church in particular is the true church, and then you listen to what it says about itself and then that becomes your self justifying circle. I start with scripture and then I. Which is revealed by God.

[John]

Where did you get scripture from?

[Joel]

From the Holy Spirit.

[John]

From the Holy Spirit?

[Joel]

Yeah.

[John]

No, I've been talking about like, like how, how did you proceed to have the physical copy of it?

[Joel]

Well, it wasn't through the Eastern Orthodox Church. It wasn't. But I, I, no, I started from, I start from scripture and when I read scripture I find out what the Bible says about what a true Christian is, how someone is saved. And I look and I compare those answers to Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witness theology, Arianism, Montanism. Pick your theology. And I say, yeah, but this is, I said, what is this position? Well, this is my precision, this is my presentation.

[John]

Yeah, yeah. You're starting off with the presupposition that you already have scripture and I'm just supposed to grant it to Scripture. Where did it come from?

[Joel]

Well, you agree, you agree with the same 66 books I do. At least you should. So we'll both start from there.

[John]

That's.

[Joel]

Who says the Bible says.

[John]

So the Bible says there's only supposed to be 66 books.

[Joel]

Yes. And we can go through, we can go through why the Bible authenticates the, the books that are in the Bible but in no way, shape or form.

[John]

Where do we see that?

[Joel]

Is my argument the same as yours? Because your argument

[John]

says that there's 66 books supposed to be in the Bible.

[Joel]

John.

[John]

Where does it say that?

[Joel]

John, very quickly, because we're going a little bit off of your circular argument. You start with the idea that the universal church is equivalent.

[John]

It's not a vicious circular argument.

[Joel]

I didn't use the word vicious, John, you did. I'm asking you if you understand how circular your argument is. You're beginning with different. John, if you're going to keep cutting me off, man, we're just going to have to end this. I, how about this? I don't cut you off, you don't cut me off. We both get to make our arguments. That's what we're going to do. So I start with scripture and scripture tells me how to be saved, how to join Christ's universal church, and it also tells me heresies to watch out for. You start with your church and its councils and synods, and then you say, based on those councils and synods, I will determine what the true church is. So I've got my circle. It starts with scripture and it encompasses all of reality. You've got your circle which starts with the Church and ends with the Church and never gets beyond the Church. Now, if you want to call that vicious, you can certainly do that. But what I'd like to know, since the Church is your authority, is where can I find the authoritative table of contents of the tradition, synods and councils and church fathers that your Church has deemed as authoritative and God breathed?

[John]

That's cool. You like to switch the question back to me when the question was for you to answer. And you're the one making the claim that Eastern Orthodoxy is false.

[Joel]

Yes.

[John]

So, and I'm asking you on what standards? Because you're coming in with a presupposition that you already. I'm supposed to grant you scripture.

[Joel]

You don't. You don't do.

[Moderator]

As a point of moderation, let's do. If we could. We could each answer each other's question.

[Joel]

Okay. All right. So, John, start by answering my question.

[John]

I asked you the first question, dude. Then you just went off and started asking me questions about how I know

[Moderator]

that my, my position doesn't necessarily matter who answers first, but I think it'd be fair if we both answer each other's question.

[Joel]

Sure. So. So, John, I'm. I promise I'm not being obtuse here, because we can talk about the canon, but the canon of Scripture is a different conversation than ultimate authority. So I'm talking about your ultimate authority. Your ultimate authority, you said, is the councils and the synods. I'm asking you, how do you know? What's that?

[John]

I never said that.

[Joel]

You didn't say councils and synods. Where did I get that from?

[John]

Well, I say we. The Holy Spirit guides us through them.

[Joel]

Guide you through the councils and synods. Where did the Holy. Where is the Holy Spirit inspired list of the councils and synods? Traditions and Church fathers, if you. If you believe in them, only that they are authoritative.

[John]

The Holy Spirit.

[Joel]

Where do I find that?

[John]

The Holy Spirit's list. You think the Holy Spirit has a list?

[Joel]

How do you know if the council in Sinai that you're listening to is inspired by the Holy Spirit?

[John]

Well, I already told you this. The. The Holy Spirit would want us to know what truth is, right? Because he would.

[Joel]

How does he reveal that?

[John]

Just truth. Right.

[Joel]

How does he reveal that?

[John]

He reveals that? Through revelation. Through divine revelation.

[Joel]

Okay, so go on.

[John]

And that would be grant given to us through the councils, through the synods, through the teachings of the apostles and the church fathers.

[Joel]

Which ones?

[John]

What do you mean, which ones? Which ones what?

[Joel]

Which councils, Synods. And now you added Church Listing off

[John]

all the, all, all the Orthodox councils.

[Joel]

Look, you want me to become Orthodox, right?

[John]

I would like you to. Yeah.

[Joel]

Okay. So you've got to tell me what I'm signing on to. You've got to tell me. You got to tell me. If you want me to cart blanche, accept your authority, you're going to have to tell me where the limits are of that authority. I. I can tell you mine. It's the 66 books from Genesis to Revelation.

[John]

You've got my first original question. You coming in here with a presuppositional argument that I'm supposed to grant you that you already have Scripture. When you're not answering my first question,

[Joel]

we can talk about the canon. I'm happy to talk about it. I'm asking you to sign off on the 66 books of scripture. Look, if you, if you want, I

[Moderator]

can finish your line of logic here,

[Joel]

Joel, and then, and then we'll talk about the canon. Sure. Okay. So if you want me to become Eastern Orthodox John, you're gonna have to tell me what I'm signing off on. You want me to give carte blanche. You want me to surrender my. Ultimately my reasoning, my duty of private judgment to a body of authority of men. And I want to know which men and where are their writings recorded? Because before I use my private judgment to make that decision, I need to know what I'm signing off on. I'm a guy who reads the terms of service before I sign them, before I hit a approve. What are the terms of service that you want me to sign off on? Where are the bounds and the limits of your church's authority and how do you know?

[John]

Through the Holy Spirit, through the, the un infallible counsel of the church fathers and the apostles that we have. They were the ones that guided the Church before there was the canon. Okay, yes, before there was that. They were the ones who got guided the church. Because if you say that. What do you mean which ones? The Church of Antioch, the Church of Alexandria, the Church of Rome, the Church of Thessalonica.

[Joel]

Okay, great.

[John]

We keep wanting to go on.

[Joel]

Yes, I want to know what. What are the writings? What are the bounds and the limits of what you accept as authority? You're telling me that the Holy Spirit used these churches, these synods, these councils and these fathers? I'm asking you for the authoritative list because I need to know if I'm going back and I'm looking at Athanasius and Athanasius affirmed solar scriptura.

[John]

This is a precious argument that I already Asked you before. How do I. How am I supposed to grant you this?

[Joel]

How. How are you supposed to grant me this Question?

[John]

Anything in any of. Any of the doctrine that you have of Christianity?

[Moderator]

Yes.

[John]

How am I, as an orthodox Christian, supposed to grant you this?

[Joel]

Because it's written in God's theopanustas word. Now I want to know. Now I can give you the bounds and the limits. Look, here's the front cover. Here's the back cover. These are the bounds and limits. I want you to become a sola scriptura, believing evangelical. That means you have to believe what's in here. That's the bounds. Okay? Now that's the bounds and limits of what I'm asking you to believe. I'm not asking you to believe in anything else other than what's in here. I want you to do the same. Same thing for me. Now you want to know how I believe in the canon. I believe in the same.

[John]

That's not. My position is the Holy Spirit works through these men. Give us the teachings.

[Joel]

Which ones?

[John]

The church fathers, the apostles. Do you want me to start, like, just naming everybody off? Is that what you want? Or are we just, like, gonna have like a fruitful conversation here and get to the point?

[Joel]

It'll be really fruitful. Would be if you could tell me what you want me to sign off on. As an Eastern Orthodox catechumen, what authority am I going to have to submit myself to? Now you say church fathers. There's a lot of church fathers.

[John]

Christ.

[Joel]

Okay. Christ as revealed by whom? In what writings? You're talking in abstractions. Yes, I have the apostles. I have the apostles.

[John]

What abstractions have I been. Been given?

[Joel]

You're talking about the Holy Spirit revealing truth. The truth that you want me to sign off on, that you have surrendered your reasoning to, that you have. And I don't mean that in a negative way. Unless it is negative, which actually, in this case it is.

[John]

But what standard? Going back to my same question, my first question. What st. That's a pre. It's like your tag argument, dude. It's like when you. When you make the tag argument.

[Joel]

It's not like my tag.

[John]

You keep interrupting me, dude.

[Joel]

Sorry. Go ahead, go ahead.

[John]

When you make the tag argument, the atheist is already presupposing they have logic and reasoning and all of these faculties. Correct. They already assume that, right?

[Joel]

Yes. Much like how you assume your authority.

[John]

Yes, exactly. And. But we all assume things at the end of the day, okay?

[Joel]

Yes, that's right. But we can either justify those assumptions or not.

[John]

Correct? Yeah. And I'm asking you, how do you justify that? You have Scripture, and you say, my 66 books are given to me in these 66 books. And it says so in these 66 books that they're supposed to be 66 books.

[Joel]

Yes, the. Yes now we are now.

[John]

And then I was talking about. And then you started asking me all these questions and then.

[Joel]

Right.

[John]

Because me to just answer questions, but when you haven't answered not one question of mine.

[Joel]

Okay.

[Moderator]

And I was just trying to let Joel finish his line. And then I was gonna allow you to do the same.

[Joel]

Yeah. So. So, John, I want to give you the best opportunity that I possibly can to try to convince me that Eastern Orthodoxy is true. But here's the thing. I believe in Scripture. Scripture tells me that I'm supposed to be a good berean, a noble berean, meaning I'm supposed to test what you tell me against the words in this book. Because this book is sufficient according to 2nd Timothy 3, 16 and 17. For every bere good work, teaching, reproof, correction and training and righteousness, so that I may be equipped complete for every good work. Every good work includes testing the authority claims of you and your church. That's why I need to know what are the bounds and the limits of. Of. Excuse me, of what you consider to be authoritative. I don't think that's an unreasonable request if you want me to sign off.

[John]

But I've answered those questions.

[Joel]

What?

[John]

And.

[Moderator]

But right before you answer, John, I'd like to give. Because it does seem like John feels like he has sufficiently answered the question. So I just want to wrap it up if. Okay, Joel, if you want to make. Because there's a point at the end of the question. So if you want to kind of wrap the argument up full circle and then John, if you'd like to answer. And then we can go through John's line of questioning.

[Joel]

Okay. Okay, great. So. So, John, here's the point. You have a. An authority with nebulous boundaries. You don't know where the boundaries end and begin of your ultimate authority. But you've surrendered your. Your reasoning, your theological and spiritual reasoning to an undefined set of authorities that you don't know where they're. What are the limits of their authorities on your life? And you want me to do the same, but I can't do that because I hold to Scripture as my highest authority, and it tells me not to do that. So that's why I'm asking you these questions is I want to reveal to you that you haven't fully thought through what you've signed off on. You don't know what you're actually submitting to. Whereas if you stuck with the 66 books of scripture, you actually would. That's the whole line of, of reasoning. When I asked you to justify your claims, to give me the limits and the boundaries of your church's authority or your personal authority. That's what I'm asking you for. I can do that. You can't. It's a. It. We actually are coming from two different epistemologies. We have two different world views. That's what I'm revealing. So I, I dare say I think we've revealed that unless you have some information that you're. You haven't given me yet.

[John]

No, I agree. I agree with that. I agree. Okay.

[Joel]

I agree.

[John]

We are coming at two different thought systems.

[Joel]

Yeah, absolutely. 100. So we agree on that. Good.

[John]

Yeah. My, my position.

[Joel]

What's your question?

[John]

Submit under Christ in the church. And your submission is just submit under your relativity.

[Joel]

That 100 false. That's a straw man. And I don't accept that. No.

[John]

Well, you were straw manning me this time.

[Joel]

I, I was not strong manning you. I was repeating back to you what you said.

[John]

No.

[Moderator]

Now, now is your chance to, to ask the question.

[Joel]

Okay. And John, feel free to explain how I straw manned you. But. Or you can just ask me some questions.

[John]

I'll just ask you the same question. The very first question came up here and asked you. Why do you have the authority to judge orthodox doctrine?

[Joel]

Because I have the Bible.

[John]

That presupposes you have the Bible. This is a presuppositional argument that you can't be granted to yourself. Why are there only some. This goes back to my question. And you, what you made is what's the question Circular.

[Joel]

What's the question?

[John]

How do you know 66 books are supposed to be the canon? And you said, because it's in the Bible. And I asked you where. And then you started interrogating me.

[Joel]

Well, I finished interrogating you. I didn't start. I was, I had been inter.

[John]

That's when you started.

[Joel]

Incorrect. But that's fine. It really, it truly doesn't matter. I'm not going to get into that. That's petty.

[John]

Fine.

[Joel]

That's when I started interrogating you, John. And I think I did a fairly good job. All right, so how do we know we have the right books? Old Testament books were recognized over time. They were not selected by an official group. There was no Eastern Orthodox Church that told us which 66 books belong in the Old Testament. There was no Eastern Orthodox Church that determined the whether or not the apocryphal books would be in the Old Testament or not. Rather, they were acknowledged by the people of God, the nation of Israel, as being inspired by God. It was well defined, it was well known which books counted as Scripture. 2nd Timothy 3:16 assumes this. The rest of 2nd Timothy chapter 3 assumes this. Jesus assumes this with his interlocutors when he says, have you not read the Scriptures? He holds the people accountable to know which books are included in the Bible. It was well known, well attested and Jesus himself affirms three categories. The Torah, the Neviim and the Ketuvim, the Law, the prophets and the writings that those books, we know what they are. They, they were arranged differently, they were grouped differently. But they are the 39 books of the Old Testament. The Old Testament books, for them to be authenticated by the people of God, if they had to come by a prophet of God, they had to be accompanied by miracles, they had to teach truth about God and they had to be recognized by the people of God. There's an acronym for that. W A T R Water. Written by a prophet, accompanied by miracles, teaching truth about God recognized by God's people. This is the well known standard of Scripture. In Jesus day there was no Eastern Orthodox Church to to affirm it. Jesus affirmed it. We take it on Christ's authority. We know which books, we know what the Bible was that Jesus Christ read. Now when it comes to the New Testament, do we have the right New Testament books? Well, to be included in the New Testament, first of all, as, as you said, you actually did get something right. You said the Holy Spirit wants us to know what his word is and he absolutely does. To be included in the New Testament books had to be Catholic, Orthodox, liturgical and Apostolic Catholic, meaning accepted in all the churches, or Orthodox meaning they had to teach right doctrine, not Eastern Orthodox liturgical, meaning they had to be used in public worship and authentic, meaning they had to date to the first century from an apostle or one of his associates. There's an acronym for this as well. C O L A. It's another beverage. Cola. Catholic, Orthodox, liturgical and authentic. Now we have a timeline. Are you laughing about this?

[John]

Yeah, I am. Yeah.

[Joel]

This is the absolute state of ortho bro Apologetics.

[John]

No, it's because you just say like this is. These are what they are. It's like, well is that arbitrary or is that normative?

[Joel]

No. Yes.

[John]

No. Yes.

[Joel]

You said Is it arbitrary? Is it normative? No, it's not arbitrary. Yes, it's normative.

[John]

What, according to who, though? According to.

[Joel]

According to the Lord Jesus Christ. Do you know him? I literally just explained.

[John]

Have you been saying that only these books are supposed to be in the book of the Bible?

[Joel]

Luke 24.

[John]

But like Revelation, like in contention. Like. Like one thing. Like, we don't know if you want revelation in here.

[Joel]

We don't know that.

[John]

And then Hebrews. Nobody knows who wrote Hebrews is John,

[Joel]

I literally just told you that Jesus affirmed the law, the prophets and the writings, or the psalms, the wisdom literature.

[John]

So you affirm the Septuagint, what Paul used?

[Joel]

I affirm the Old Testament scriptures that Jesus affirmed. Do you?

[John]

The Septuagint, Right.

[Joel]

Does the Septuagint only consist of the law, the prophets and the writings, as Jesus affirmed? Yes or no?

[John]

No. They. I can't name them all off on top of my head, but they are. They actually have more.

[Joel]

They do. Really? What. What. What else? What's included that Jesus has confirmed it.

[John]

Well, that's begging the question.

[Joel]

Seven additional. Yeah, yeah.

[John]

And that's begging the question is like, just because Jesus never said what. Say these books are supposed to be in the Bible.

[Joel]

I literally just told you where he does. And you were about to say. Go ahead, say it. Finish the sentence. Just because Jesus said it. Go on.

[John]

No, I. I corrected myself.

[Joel]

Good. That was a good correction.

[John]

And I said, just because Jesus. I mean, that's where I corrected myself and I said, jesus never said that these books are supposed to be in the canon law.

[Joel]

Prophets, writings. Law, prophets, Psalms. As a shorthand for writings, I'm going to take Jesus's word over John Mondragon's word every day of the week.

[John]

It's not my word, though.

[Joel]

John. John, I've made. I've made my case for the Old Testament. I've made my case for the New Testament. If you have a different standard or a different criteria, by all means, let's hear it.

[John]

But it was canonized through the church.

[Joel]

Oh, it was canonized through the church. Okay, Tell me about that process. How was it canonized through the church? Tell me about it.

[John]

Through writings, revelation, through interpretation. Which?

[Joel]

Which writings?

[John]

Who?

[Joel]

Who?

[John]

The gospels. John Matthew, Mark, Luke and John Paul. Hold on, let me grab it.

[Joel]

Is this really happening? John? You came to a debate. You don't even have your points. John, I can tell you how they were accepted, how they were canonized.

[Moderator]

I think he's got his headphones off

[John]

because he got up. John.

[Joel]

You came to this debate unprepared, didn't you?

[John]

No, I'm just going to read off all the. If you want me to, I'll read off all of the authors of the New Testament for you.

[Joel]

No, I'm not asking for the office

[John]

and then we can go through there.

[Joel]

I'm asking you how these books were canonized.

[John]

How were they apostolic fathers? And if you want me to, I can go through lineage.

[Joel]

I can take you through the lineage. Go ahead.

[Moderator]

Question long. I think it might help does as people may know. I'm just inquiring into Orthodoxy and I still have a lot of questions, but is there, is there a certain council, a council that canonized the Scriptures?

[John]

No, there's not a certain council that everyone holds to as canon. There's several. But it's through that that we know what were supposed to be canonized.

[Joel]

Through that we know what the Church recognized.

[John]

Yes.

[Joel]

Yes, that's correct. And I can give you that timeline. 100 to 165 AD Justin Martyr referred to the Gospels as Scripture. That's not a can. That's not a council. 100 to 1. 115 to 200 A.D. polycarp Clement of Alexandria and others refer to both Old Testament and New Testament and as scriptures. 155 to 191 AD Irenaeus quoted from all New Testament books except for Philemon, second Peter, third John and Jude. 200-0 ad origins cited all New Testament books, though expressed concerns about James, Second Peter, second and third John. You alluded to something about that, how there was dispute. That doesn't decanonize scripture, obviously. 367 AD Athanasius listed the same 27 books we have today as canonical. It was not a council, it was not a synod. It was the Holy Spirit working through local churches. That's why they had to be Catholic, meaning they had to be used in all the the churches. They had to be Catholic, Orthodox, liturgical and apostolic, slash authentic. That is the method that the Holy Spirit used. And by the way, those are the criteria. Paul says read these letters in, in all the churches. If anyone comes and contradicts the the gospel that we've given you, let it be anathema. So it had to be inline, had to be orthodox. It had to be apostolic. That's why Scripture puts such an a, an emphasis on eyewitness testimony. John, I say this very respectfully. You've signed on to something. You've converted to a system that you cannot defend, that cannot defend itself. And your authority has no limits. It has no bounds. You have surrendered your precious personal, private judgment for nothing. You've given up your birthright for a mess of pottage, John. You've been like Esau, John. And you need to trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. What's the gospel, John?

[John]

Seriously, what's the gospel, Esau, what's the gospel? That's a new one, bro. That's a new one.

[Joel]

What's the gospel?

[John]

Damn,

[Joel]

John, that's exactly what you're in danger of if you don't repent and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. What's the gospel?

[John]

No, I. I'm. That's baffling, dude.

[Joel]

John, what is the gospel?

[John]

And I thought we were the mean ones, us orthos. We're supposed to come up here.

[Joel]

John, what's the gospel? The most.

[John]

Why do you want to know them already, dude? Like, why do you want to know

[Joel]

anything that I can do to you right now?

[John]

I signed up my birthright. I don't know what the gospels are, dude. I don't know what they are. I've just signed up my birthright and just, like, cast it to the wind.

[Joel]

Yeah, they really. That really affected you. Listen, I can tell you what the gospel is. Do you know?

[John]

Yeah, that did. Dude, that's a.

[Joel]

Okay, John, it's been really great.

[John]

Not even JP would be that mean. He's a little.

[Joel]

I don't know. I don't know, John, by me saying you've given up something precious for something that's not valuable. That's not me being mean, John. That's me being very loving towards you. And I want you to really understand this for what it is.

[John]

First question I asked you on what standard? And you're just like 66 books.

[Joel]

I haven't answered. All right.

[John]

That's all you said?

[Joel]

Well, I. I believe that the record does show that I have answered. I've actually gone into very precise, granular detail explaining exactly how we know which books belong in the Bible. And none of it had to do with an authoritative council. None of it had to do with an authoritative synod. That's what you came here with tonight. Councils and synods. And then you added in church fathers. You can't tell me which councils, which synods, or which church fathers or which authoritative statements.

[John]

Dude. Dude, what I was talking about, the councils and sinners, is how we know is. Is how we know our theology.

[Joel]

We know that is what you said, John, the gospel.

[John]

I'm talking about the.

[Joel]

John, I want you to understand. I'm not your enemy here. I'm Trying to be your friend. You need to know what the Gospel of Jesus Christ is and you can't tell me you don't know what it is. Your church doesn't preach it. Your church.

[John]

I signed my birth right away. I have no idea what it is.

[Joel]

Did that really offend you? Do you believe that I sinned against you by calling you that? If so, I'm sorry.

[John]

No, no, no, no, Dude, I was trying to. I'm joking. Back with you. When you say that to me, I' walking. Back with you.

[Joel]

I want you to.

[John]

I don't take anything personal. I'm not that. Not that.

[Joel]

Okay. Okay, then that's good then.

[John]

Let's.

[Joel]

Okay, let's. I don't.

[Moderator]

I.

[Joel]

Listen, I don't know JP personally. From what I know of him, I respect them. You clearly have an ax to grind with them. Take that elsewhere. Because the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the most important message you can possibly know. And you need to know this. And I don't want you to leave here without knowing it. Your church doesn't teach it. Your church doesn't teach you the Gospel of grace, and I want you to know it. Can I tell it to you?

[John]

I respectfully decline, sir. I can only take that teaching from my authority.

[Joel]

Your authority is not going to teach it.

[John]

If they.

[Joel]

If they were, they would have taught it to you when you converted.

[John]

Then again, I mean. Saul, here we go. But thank you for having me and thank you.

[Joel]

Great talking with you. Great talking with you. I'm going to explain the gospel. I'm after you sign off, I'm going to explain the gospel. You should listen to it. Take care, man. God bless.

[John]

Thank you.

[Moderator]

Thanks for coming, John.

[John]

You guys have a wonderful night. Take care.

[Moderator]

You too, man.

[Joel]

Here's the gospel. Paul lays it out in 1st Corinthians 15, Jesus Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures. He was buried and on the third day he was raised to life in accordance with the scriptures. This is the truth. Paul says in First Corinthians 15 that if you hold to it, if you believe, unless you believed in vain, unless you believe some vain message, this is the message by which you are standing and by which you are being saved. There is no other message than the Gospel of Jesus Christ which can guarantee that you will be justified before the Lord God. No church can offer it to you, no man made institution can offer to you. No synod, no council, no preacher, no one can save you except the Lord Jesus Christ. And he does it by grace alone, through faith in Christ alone. According to the Scripture alone, to the glory of God alone. That is the gospel. The gospel is salvation by grace alone, through Jesus Christ alone. We can't add to it. It's not synergistic. We don't work for it. No church can grant it. No tradition can authorize it. It comes from the Holy Spirit, making you born again as you trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. That's what I want for John. That's what I want for you. Watching this trust in Jesus Christ, repent and believe the gospel. You will be saved. That's all I have.