Al Mohler And Todd Respond To Tucker’s Position On Israel

Summary

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Wretched Radio with Todd Friel

Episode: Al Mohler And Todd Respond To Tucker’s Position on Israel
Date: March 16, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of Wretched Radio features Todd Friel and Dr. Al Mohler tackling a provocative series of questions raised by Tucker Carlson about Israel: Who owns the land biblically known as Israel? Are modern Jews the inheritors of the biblical promises? What should the evangelical Christian position be toward the current state of Israel? Through direct engagement with Carlson’s interviews with Ted Cruz and Mike Huckabee, Friel and Mohler break down the theological, hermeneutical, and historical complexities, offering listeners a robust evangelical framework amid cultural and generational confusion.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Is Israel Important to Evangelicals?

• Hermeneutics and Eschatology Matter:
  • Friel frames the discussion by highlighting that how Christians view Israel is deeply connected to how they interpret Scripture (hermeneutics) and their beliefs about end times (eschatology).
    • “Your eschatology and your hermeneutic, how you go about the business of seeing those issues is going to bear fruit in your understanding of Israel.” (03:37)
• Dr. Mohler’s Theological Stance:
  • Mohler identifies as an "ardent premillennialist" but not a dispensationalist, affirming a future literal fulfillment of promises to Israel (03:18).
    • "Historic premillennialism…holds that there is a literal millenn[ium] of a thousand years in which Christ will reign and all the promises will be fulfilled, including...all of the territorial promises given to Israel." (03:23)

2. Genesis 12 and the Modern State of Israel

• Ted Cruz’s Defense from Genesis 12:
  • Cruz claims, “Those who bless Israel will be blessed, and those who curse Israel will, will be cursed." (04:47)
• Mohler’s Clarification:
  • A distinction must be made between biblical Israel and the nation-state.
    • “The nation state of Israel is entirely legitimate and...is a holding vessel in God's providence for Israel…All of God's promises being fulfilled. And by the way, I think that means all of God’s promises. And God does not lie.” (05:21)
  • The present nation is not the entirety of biblical Israel but participates in those ongoing promises.

3. Tucker Carlson’s Pushback: Government vs. People

• Government or Nation?
  • Tucker presses Ted Cruz, “Those who bless the government of Israel?” (06:55)
• Friel & Mohler’s Response:
  • Mohler cautions not to confuse support for the government with support for the people or the biblical promises.
  • “I don’t believe that Benjamin Netanyahu is in the Bible. I believe Israel’s in the Bible. That's just a helpful distinction.” (09:38)

4. Modern Israel and Historical Continuity

• Creation of Israel After the Holocaust:
  • Mohler underscores the intertwining of historical, political, and providential factors in Israel’s rebirth.
    • “It’s not an accident that Israel became a nation state in about 1948, in the aftermath of the Second World War, in the aftermath of the Holocaust…Israel is a holding vessel...as a part of God’s providential purposes.” (07:30)
• God’s Faithfulness in History:
  • “God’s sovereign providence is an unfolding faithfulness. And I see the creation of the state of Israel as an incredible sign of God's covenantal faithfulness with his people.” (08:57)

5. Who Is a Jew? Lineage, Religion, and Identity

• Carlson’s Challenge on Jewish Ancestry:
  • Tucker questions whether modern Jews, dispersed and varied, have legitimate claim to the promises and the land.
• Mohler’s Response:
  • “That’s according to the determination of God in his sovereignty...If they are the Jewish people…they are to be recognized as sons and daughters of the covenant God made with Israel.” (31:27)
  • “We do not believe that unbelieving persons are in the church. We do believe that on a temporary basis, unbelieving Jews are part of Israel.” (53:10)

6. The “Already and Not Yet” of the Promises

• The Promises Are in Effect, but Not Fully Realized:
  • Mohler asserts that the land promises (Genesis 15) will be literally fulfilled in God's timing, possibly during the millennial reign.
    • “They will one day [have the land] to the honor and glory of God who made that covenant…” (35:58)
  • Friel notes this as "already and not yet," paralleling other Christian doctrines that await consummation.

7. Evangelical Responsibility Toward Israel

• Christian Duty:
  • Mohler believes supporting the nation-state of Israel is a Christian responsibility, but the greater concern remains the spiritual destiny of the Jewish people.
    • “I believe it is a Christian responsibility to speak for, to advocate for, to recognize Israel...the nation state of Israel is a part of God’s unfolding plan because of His promises to Israel, His covenant nation.” (30:08)
  • The promises to Abraham are unbreakable and forever in effect (17:41, 18:22).

8. Antisemitism and Cultural Shifts

• Rising Antipathy Toward Israel:
  • Mohler reports that younger evangelicals are wrestling with anti-Israel sentiment, and pastors are increasingly shocked by questions among committed young Christians.
    • “I am constantly contacted by pastors who are shocked by...young men who happen to be some of the most stalwart...young Christians who have been, I think, activated and at least serious questions have been raised in their minds.” (24:49)
  • He warns against adopting positions hostile to Israel, as biblically such antipathy is never commended (54:38).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Biblical Promises:
  • Dr. Al Mohler:
    • "God does not lie. I will not lie to David. And I don't believe God lies, period." (17:12)
    • “Why would Christians of all people be confused about Israel as a parallel and in fact, even a prior example of already and not yet?” (36:56)
• On the Jewish Right to the Land:
  • Todd Friel:
    • “When God cut this covenant with Abraham…it was a one sided covenant that he cut. In other words, it cannot be broken.” (17:41)
  • Dr. Al Mohler:
    • “The Israel of the Bible is larger than the nation of Israel, because look at how many Jewish people are outside the nation of Israel.” (15:27)
• On Jewish Identity:
  • Dr. Al Mohler:
    • “All the anti-Semites know who to hate. So how do they dare ask us who the Jewish people are?” (46:08)
  • Dr. Al Mohler on Ruth:
    • “We see in Ruth a picture of the gospel before the gospel. So, yeah, I'll preach, boy.” (49:17)
• On Already/Not Yet and the Borders:
  • Dr. Al Mohler:
    • “Those are concrete promises to God's glory. God's not glorified in a metaphor. He's glorified in the fulfillment of his promises.” (38:09)
• On Evangelical Attitudes and Clarification:
  • Dr. Al Mohler:
    • “Evangelicals are to be the people who believe the Bible is the inerrant infallible word of God. And we are the ones who are supposed to believe up front that God is absolutely faithful to all of his promises.” (15:27)
  • Dr. Al Mohler:
    • “Let’s do that [study the matter] and an open mind and most importantly, an open Bible.” (25:44)
• On Evangelical America’s Unique Role:
  • Dr. Al Mohler:
    • “The theological support for Israel was overwhelmingly from Britain and the United States...It's because we read the Bible and we believe the Bible and the Bible points to God's unbreakable promises.” (22:11)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Introduction to the Israel Debate: 00:33–02:19
• Mohler’s Theological Position Explained: 02:19–03:23
• Genesis 12 Promise Discussion (with Ted Cruz segment): 04:47–06:30
• Tucker’s Pushback / Defining Israel: 06:55–11:18
• Dr. Mohler: Israel as Historical and Providential Holding Vessel: 07:30–08:48
• Mohler’s Simplified Summary of Evangelicals and Israel: 15:14–17:03
• Friel/Mohler on the Permanence and Nature of Biblical Promises: 17:29–18:22
• Is Modern Israel the Israel of Genesis? 18:52–21:36
• Who is a Jew? (Responses to Carlson on Ancestry/Identity): 31:27–35:07, 44:14–47:37
• The "Already/Not Yet" Principle: 36:56–38:09
• Carlson’s Border Questions / Mohler on Literal Fulfillment: 35:58–38:09
• Jewish Identity as Ethnic and Religious: 52:05–53:10
• Mohler’s Final Warning to the Church: 53:10–54:45

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Conclusion

This episode of Wretched Radio provides a candid, nuanced, and theologically robust discussion of the evangelical relationship to Israel in light of Tucker Carlson’s skepticism. Dr. Al Mohler emphasizes the enduring validity of God’s promises to the Jewish people and the significance of the modern state of Israel as a providential "holding vessel." The dialogue clarifies the complexity of Jewish identity—both ethnic and religious—the significance of biblical covenants, and encourages Christians to maintain both fidelity to the Bible and humility in discourse. With sharp distinctions made between government, people, and biblical fulfillment, listeners are urged to approach Israel with an open Bible, careful hermeneutics, and a generous measure of humility in light of God’s faithfulness.

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Table of Key Quotes

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|---------|-------| | 03:23 | Dr. Mohler | "I believe...all of the territorial promises given to Israel." | | 05:21 | Dr. Mohler | "[Nation-state of Israel] is a holding vessel in God’s providence for Israel." | | 09:38 | Dr. Mohler | "I don’t believe that Benjamin Netanyahu is in the Bible. I believe Israel’s in the Bible." | | 17:12 | Dr. Mohler | "God does not lie. I will not lie to David." | | 35:58 | Dr. Mohler | "They will one day [possess the land] to the honor and glory of God." | | 46:08 | Dr. Mohler | "All the anti-Semites know who to hate. So how do they dare ask us who the Jewish people are?" | | 53:10 | Dr. Mohler | "We do not believe that unbelieving persons are in the church. We do believe that on a temporary basis, unbelieving Jews are part of Israel." |

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For Listeners New to the Discussion

This episode is a must-listen for any Christian wrestling with the modern realities of Israel, scriptural interpretation, and generational divides in evangelical thought. Rather than offering simplistic answers, Todd Friel and Dr. Al Mohler illuminate the biblical, historical, and pastoral dimensions, highlighting the complexity and necessity of humility, fidelity, and awareness of the church’s unique story in relation to Israel.

Transcript

[Todd Friel]

Wretched radio begins in 3, 2, 1.

[Host/Interviewer]

God gave me a Ferrari because I am a Ferrari.

[Fortis News Anchor (Jimmy Hicks)]

You're a Ferrari, too.

[Mike Huckabee]

When God made you, he had all the options put on.

[Tucker Carlson]

You are fully loaded and totally equipped.

[Dr. Al Mohler]

So do this with me. Where did we ever come up with the style of preaching we have today?

[Tucker Carlson]

There is some entertaining preaching, but not

[Dr. Al Mohler]

convicting preaching, and the legacy has been tragic.

[Todd Friel]

It's time for Wretched Radio with Todd Friel.

[Jimmy Hicks]

Welcome in to Wretched Radio. I am not Todd Friel. However, we are going to hear from him and Dr. Al Mohler in just a moment. How do we view Israel? That's a question on the mind of a lot of Christians right now in this current cultural moment. And so Todd had a conversation recently with Dr. Al Mohler to discuss just that.

[Host/Interviewer]

Tucker Carlson has questions. Dr. Albert Mohler has answers. What are the questions that Tucker Carlson is asking? It has everything to do with property, specifically the zip code known as Israel. Who owns that territory? Is the deed given to Abraham still in effect for Jewish people today? And speaking of Jewish people today, who are those Jewish people today? It is a conversation well worth having. And Tucker Carlson is spurring it, I hope in good faith. And he's causing us to sharpen our answers. He's causing us to dig into our Bibles, to be able to say, this verse here applies over there. And so, Tucker, thank you for helping us sharpen our understanding of Israel and our relationship to Israel to help us do just that. Dr. Mohler, would you agree with me, sir, that when it comes to understanding Israel and the evangelical attitude toward that state, hermeneutics and eschatology are actually important?

[Dr. Al Mohler]

They are not only important. Biblical theology is important as the larger context. How you read the Bible has a great deal to do with how you understand today's headlines, as you know, and especially when you're talking about Israel. So I think this is an important conversation. I appreciate you hosting it.

[Host/Interviewer]

All right, so let's to make sure that we understand why sometimes we have a different understanding on this, I want to put our cards on the table. Would you call yourself a Christian Zionist?

[Dr. Al Mohler]

I am certainly a friend of Israel. Christian for theological and biblical reasons. Who is a friend to Israel and in terms of that being connected to the land, As a Zionist, yes, I think properly, historically, that was a moment in time. But the argument, yes, I believe that Israel and the land on which Israel now sits are a part of God's eternal purposes.

[Host/Interviewer]

All right. And you've arrived at that conclusion hermeneutically. Would you Consider yourself to be a dispensationalist or a covenantalist.

[Dr. Al Mohler]

Yes,

[Host/Interviewer]

that's not helpful at all.

[Dr. Al Mohler]

Okay, so I am not a dispensationalist.

[Host/Interviewer]

All right.

[Dr. Al Mohler]

I am an ardent premillennialist. Okay, okay.

[Host/Interviewer]

All right. We'll have to figure out how you got there. But the only reason I bring this

[Dr. Al Mohler]

historic premillennialism, which holds that there is a literal millenn of a thousand years in which Christ will reign and all the promises will be fulfilled, including, I believe, I mean, just put it all on the table, all of the territorial promises given to Israel.

[Host/Interviewer]

All right, so now there are people who would say that, therefore that land and those promises, they won't take place until the millennium. We're going to get into that. But the point that I wanted to make before we started to watch the interaction between Ted Cruz and Tucker Carlson, Mike Huckabee and Tucker Carlson is that we all kind of go, wait, okay, there's a reason there's some disagreement here. Your eschatology and your hermeneutic, how you go about the business of seeing those issues is going to bear fruit in your understanding of Israel. So if you're an amillennial post, it's just going to make a difference. I wanted everybody to understand where you're coming from on this so that they can understand, okay, this is a very complex issue. And Tucker Carlson, I think is fair to ask these questions. So with that in mind, Dr. Albert Moeller of Southern Seminary, I'm going to play the clips from that I thought were the highlights of the interview that started out a few months ago with Ted Cruz. I think he was, I think he was a little bit surprised. First of all, is Ted Cruz a Southern Baptist?

[Dr. Al Mohler]

Do you know he's been a member of a Southern Baptist church? Yes.

[Host/Interviewer]

All right, so he, he, he quoted the Bible when asked about Israel.

[H]

Growing up in Sunday school, I was taught from the Bible, those who bless Israel will be blessed, and those who curse Israel will, will be cursed. And from my perspective, I want to be on the blessing side of things.

[Host/Interviewer]

All right, that would be Genesis 12. Dr. Mohler, we're going to hear Tucker Carlson kind of drill into Ted Cruz. And I want you to respond to Ted so that we can all articulate our understanding. Would you agree with Ted Cruz that we should view modern day Israel favorably because of that promise in Genesis 12?

[Dr. Al Mohler]

I do believe that, but I think we need to speak carefully here. And I think confusing this can become a problem. So let's make a Distinction. I have to make a distinction between the Israel reference there in Genesis 12 and Israel, the nation state that exists today, which is not exactly defined according to Scripture. And so I believe that the nation state of Israel is entirely legitimate and that it is a holding vessel in God's providence for Israel, as you see there in Genesis 12. And thus I believe, and this is why we speak of eventually a remnant coming to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. We speak of all of God's promises being fulfilled. And by the way, I think that means all of God's promises. And God does not lie. And so I point to the nation state of Israel as having an historical, political, constitutional, international legitimacy that is to be supported and defined and recognized and honored. And I want to speak of God's continuing purposes in Israel there in terms of Genesis 12. I hope that distinction makes sense.

[Host/Interviewer]

Well, I think it's going to get sharper and sharper as we go through the exchange because Tucker Carlson basically didn't accept anything that Ted said. So we can use this as an opportunity to just keep interacting. So having quoted Genesis chapter 12 to underscore why Ted is a fan of modern day Israel, that we are blessed if we bless Israel. TUCKER Carlson, he had some pushback.

[Tucker Carlson]

Those who bless the government of Israel.

[H]

Those who bless Israel is what it says. It doesn't say the government of. It says the nation of Israel. So that's in the Bible. As a Christian, I believe that.

[Mike Huckabee]

Where is that?

[H]

I can find it to you. I don't have the scripture off the tip of mine.

[Host/Interviewer]

Okay. Unfortunately, that was red meat for Tucker. But we're looking past that.

[Dr. Al Mohler]

Okay.

[Host/Interviewer]

Immediately we start to see the complication of the issue. You even start with, well, there's the nation state, there's Old Testament Israel, and then we're talking about the government of modern day. So is modern day Israel Old Testament Israel?

[Dr. Al Mohler]

I think Old Testament Israel is certainly inside the state of Israel, with the state of Israel being a preservative for the continuation of, and I think, of course, the history of the medieval period, the history of the 20th century, so horrible, including the Holocaust. It's not an accident that Israel became a nation state in about 1948, in the aftermath of the Second World War, in the aftermath of the Holocaust. And so you're talking about half of the Jews in the world living there. And it is a holding vessel, I think it is to be respected as a part of God's providential purposes. And by the way, you know, Todd, I think a lot of people wouldn't know this, but even mainline Protestantism at the time understood and affirmed that. You know, even, even someone like Karl Barth recognized and, and affirmed that. So in other words, the trauma of the Holocaust and, and, and, you know, things get theologically clarified in such a horrible situation. And so it was interesting that even that. That's why there was such support even in the United Nations. It's hard to believe these days that it could be so. But the United nations had a hand in creating the state of Israel. The United nations had no hand in creating the people of Israel as God's elect nation in Genesis 12.

[Host/Interviewer]

Well, Tucker, I think would drill down on that and go, but wait a second. Is that informed by geopolitics, or is that informed by Genesis 12, 15, and 17?

[Dr. Al Mohler]

Yes, yes. Again, I reject the distinctions here because we believe in a God whose providence is played out, revealed to us over history. God's sovereign providence is an unfolding faithfulness. And I see the creation of the state of Israel as an incredible sign of God's covenantal faithfulness with his people. He's faithful to his promises. Those promises do not end with the creation of the nation state of Israel in 1948, 1949. And so I think one point made by Senator Cruz is very important. I don't believe that Benjamin Netanyahu is in the Bible. I believe Israel's in the Bible. That's just a helpful distinction.

[Host/Interviewer]

What you said. I think it's so obvious, and yet it is so often overlooked. History happens in time, and there's God writing his narrative throughout history. It's happening over millennia. So we've gotta be careful how much the accordion we squeeze here. So let me get back to Ted. He's trying to defend his biblical position. He's trying not to. He's also a politician. That had to make this a most challenging conversation. But Tucker just kept pressing back.

[Tucker Carlson]

So you're quoting a Bible phrase, you don't have context for it, and you don't know where in the Bible it is. But that's like your theology. I'm confused. What does that even mean? Tucker, I'm a Christian. I want to know what you're talking about.

[H]

Where does my support for Israel come from? Number one, because biblically, we are commanded to support Israel. But number two.

[Tucker Carlson]

Hold on, hold on. You're a senator and now you're throwing out theology. And I am a Christian and I am allowed to weigh in on this. We are commanded as Christians to support the government of Israel.

[H]

We are commanded to support Israel, and

[Tucker Carlson]

we're what does that mean? Israel.

[H]

We're told those who bless Israel will be blessed.

[Tucker Carlson]

But hold on. Define Israel.

[Mike Huckabee]

This is important.

[Tucker Carlson]

Are you kidding? This is a majority Christian country.

[H]

Define Israel. Do you not know what Israel is? That would be the country you've asked like 49 questions about.

[Tucker Carlson]

So that's what Genesis. That's what God is talking about, the nation of Israel?

[H]

Yes.

[Tucker Carlson]

And he's. So is that the current borders, the current leadership? He's talking about the political entity called Israel.

[H]

He's talking about the nation of Israel. Yeah. Nations exist and he's discussing a nation. A nation was the people of Israel.

[Tucker Carlson]

Is the nation referring to in Genesis? Is that the same as the country run by Benjamin Netanyahu right now?

[Host/Interviewer]

Okay, I've got a headache. So, Dr. Mohler, how. How can you help us simplify this?

[Jimmy Hicks]

Hold on just a moment before Dr. Mohler answers. Gotta take a quick break, but we will return to get that answer next on Wretched Radio. You know those really big questions you get when your kid comes home from college? You know, the ones about whether God exists, if the Bible can be trusted, why there's evil in the world, or what's wrong with everyone else's view on sexuality? Yeah, those. Road trip to truth doesn't dodge them. This resource is hosted by John Ferbarez, and it goes straight to college campuses and talks to students who are asking these very same questions. But it doesn't just stop there. No, no. Then there are the experts that give the real answers with topics like science and faith, pornography, social media and mental health, critical race theory, marriage, eternity. And that's not even the half of it. If you have teenagers, this is the stuff they need to hear before the world gives them its version. And if you don't have teenagers, you'll still learn something. Road Trip to Truth, all four seasons, available right now on Fortis plus for free. Download it now, where you download apps on your smartphone, your smart TV, or just simply go to fortisplus.org thanks for listening to Wretched Radio today. If you're a man, you're trying to figure out what it actually means to be one. And you've probably noticed the world doesn't make it easy. They say be strong, but not too strong. Lead, but you don't want to be toxic. Look, it's a lot of mixed signals, and after a while, you just stop listening to any of it. And the thing about it is, scripture is not confused. God has a lot to say about what it means to be a man and Dr. Adam Tyson unpacks that every week on way of manhood. Dr. Tyson is a pastor. He's also a professor at the Master's University, and he's one of our Fortis Institute Fellows. And he's not interested in cultural trends. He's interested in what the Bible actually says. And if you're an ongoing monthly gospel partner of Fortis Institute, it is your support that helps make content just like this possible. If you've ever been impacted by this message ministry, would you prayerfully consider becoming an ongoing monthly gospel partner today? All you have to do is go to portisinstitute.org right now to find out what it would look like in your life to do just that. Wretched Amazing Grace Amazing Gospel Remember when the craziest cultural ideas stayed in dystopian novels? Yeah, those days are over. We're living in the brave new world now, and it showed up faster than anyone expected it to. Social media didn't just change how we communicate, it changed how everyone thinks. And if you're not ready as a Christian to defend what you believe about gender and sexuality and race and entertainment and a dozen other hot button issues, you're gonna get steamrolled. Worldview 2 picks up where the first one left off. Todd Friel and Dr. Nathan Buznitz tackled 22 more issues through a biblical critical race theory, modesty, persecution, environmentalism, secular entertainment and more. The stuff your actions seeing in the headlines and hearing at your dinner table. Because the Christian worldview is under assault and, I don't know, isn't going to cut it anymore. Wretched Worldview 2 is available and streaming right now for free on Fortis. You can download the app on your smartphone, on your smart TV, or simply visit fortisplus.org.

[Todd Friel]

God has given the church many gifts for the building up of the body. One gift is giving. All Christians are commanded to give, but God has given some an extra measure of generosity so that they can give generously, knowing that God will provide for them as they work to provide for the needs of the church. This is Wretched Radio with Todd Friel

[Jimmy Hicks]

and we return to Wretched Radio. I am Jimmy Hicks. Todd Friel today is speaking with Dr. Al Mohler. How is the Christian to view modern day Israel?

[Host/Interviewer]

If you had to in a clarifying statement, say, this is my doctor Albert Mohler understanding of the relationship between evangelicals and Israel. Simplify this for me.

[Dr. Al Mohler]

Well, let's start with the last part. Evangelicals are to be the people who believe the Bible is the inerrant infallible word of God. And we are the ones who are supposed to believe up front that God is absolutely faithful to all of his promises. Okay, so even in the unfolding of Israel, you mentioned Genesis 12. Well, there is no kingdom at that point. There's no Jerusalem at that point. That's all in God's plans and promise for Israel. But it doesn't end with the land and the promise, because there are promises given to Israel, God's covenant nation that go far beyond any territory that either ancient Israel or modern Israel controls or contains. So I hope I'm helping things here. There are a lot of moving parts on this table, aren't there? But I go back to the fact that I believe that Israel is larger. The Israel of the Bible is larger than the nation of Israel, because look at how many Jewish people are outside the nation of Israel. But Israel was created. It's a remarkable thing in God's providence. I mean, it's astounding. We need to go back to the UN action and recognize that the United Nations. Yeah, I know rarely do you have any good news out of the United Nations. But here's one thing. The United nations voted to recognize and even to create a Jewish state. That's an astounding thing. So Israel is a Jewish state, legally defined. It is, I believe, theologically a holding vessel for God's coming.

[Host/Interviewer]

I use that term several times now. And I want to make sure that we're all clear on this. It's a holding vessel for the.

[Dr. Al Mohler]

For God's future promises. I mean, God's eternal promises to Israel. I believe that God doesn't lie. It's exactly what is found in the psalm. God does not lie. I will not lie to David. And I don't believe God lies, period.

[Host/Interviewer]

It brings us back to hermeneutics. If God made the promise to Israel, was it a temporary promise? Did it somehow get usurped by the church? So once again, I don't believe in temporary promises.

[Dr. Al Mohler]

I believe in God's unfolding covenantal purposes.

[Host/Interviewer]

Would you feel comfortable saying this to Tucker Carlson? Tucker, when God cut this covenant with Abraham, it's really in Genesis 15:17. It's kind of scattered around there. He made a threefold promise and it was a one sided covenant that he cut. In other words, it cannot be broken. And the threefold promise was a land that would be Israel, a nation, the Jewish people and a seed, singular, that would be Jesus Christ. I believe that those promises are forever in effect. And there's no reason to think that anybody else should have that land because God promised it to Abraham, and that is indeed a deed to the property. You cool with that?

[Dr. Al Mohler]

Yay and amen.

[Host/Interviewer]

Oh, good. I just passed an Elmo class. Wow.

[Dr. Al Mohler]

I'm like, good stuff here.

[Host/Interviewer]

I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm ready to be done with life. That, that would be like. That would be like a big box check for me. All right, I want to continue. Tucker Carlson. He's not accepting really anything that Tucker, that Ted Cruz said. So let's keep engaging with Tucker, because as we've said now multiple times, the moving parts here make this complicated.

[Dr. Al Mohler]

This is silly.

[Tucker Carlson]

I'm talking about the political entity of modern Israel.

[Dr. Al Mohler]

Yes.

[H]

And that is.

[Tucker Carlson]

You believe that's what God was talking about in Genesis?

[H]

I do.

[Tucker Carlson]

But that country's existed since when?

[H]

For thousands of years now. There was a time when it didn't exist and then was recreated just over 70 years ago.

[Tucker Carlson]

But I'm saying, I think most people understand that line in Genesis to refer to the Jewish people, God's chosen people.

[H]

That's not what it says.

[Tucker Carlson]

Okay, Israel. But you don't even know where in the Bible it is.

[H]

So I don't remember the scriptural citation, but okay, I keep.

[Tucker Carlson]

It's like Genesis 16 or something like that. But yes, it's in the early.

[Host/Interviewer]

No, actually not Tucker. But the point is, he's trying to say, is modern day Israel, the government of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu, the current people? Is it the Ashkenazi Jews? Is it the Mizrahi Jews who are the ancestors of Abraham? He gets into that far deeper with Mike Huckabee. So we'll hold that for just a moment. How would you have responded to Tucker when he was pressing back to Ted Cruz, who is saying, yes, the modern day Israel that we see, that is what was in view in Genesis. How would you explain it to Tucker?

[Dr. Al Mohler]

Well, I would say that I would speak differently than Senator Cruz in this respect. I would say that there are always two dimensions in speaking of Israel. I think that's true in scripture. First of all, God is always faithful to his promises. And so the Roman destruction of Israel, Judea, and of Jerusalem, that did not bring an end to God's promises. He is faithful to his promises worked out over history. And eventually, in what we call eschatology, the end of all things, when God brings his eternal purposes to an absolute climactic conclusion, he's faithful to all his promises, such that even all the nations seek God's faithfulness to his promises. And all nations will eventually and all persons will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. That means they're all redeemed, but they're all going to know who is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. I think there's an eternal purpose for Israel. It's just made so clear. As a matter of fact, I don't think you can read the Bible without seeing those eternal purposes. I think it's not only Genesis, I think it's Romans, where Paul makes very clear he believes those promises are continuing. And so I want to say Israel has always existed as a people. But, you know, a part of this, let's just define this very quickly. A part of the problem is that if you're going to use the word nation, we have to be clear what we're talking about. The nation of Israel is a people. It is a chosen people. It is a people and it is a land.

[Host/Interviewer]

Okay?

[Dr. Al Mohler]

So the people were separated from the land for a long time. That did not mean that the people ceased to exist. The people were dispersed. And so, you know, New York City is one of the biggest Jewish cities in the world. Some say, well be the biggest Jewish city in the world. But even as both as the Jewish people have existed through time have been dispersed, there's been an in gathering to Israel, which is exactly what they said. I need to throw one more complication in here, Todd. Sorry. Here's one more complication. We have to concede that historically the Jewish leaders who established the state of Israel were overwhelmingly secular Zionists. In other words, they were claiming a political entity of Israel, but they weren't claiming any particular divine fulfillment of a promise. They were claiming a right to the land. But they were very, I mean, some of them just were atheists. Now that has changed a lot in Israel. So Israel today politically and theologically is very different in terms of where it was then. But the fact that they thought it was secular doesn't mean the Christians thought it was secular. And so here's something amazing. The theological support for Israel was overwhelmingly from Britain and the United States, where there had been a long history of preaching the Bible and making very clear through expository preaching, God's eternal purposes. And so it's not an accident that support for the nation state of Israel was overwhelmingly, and it is today, from evangelicals both in Britain and in the United States. It's because we read the Bible and we believe the Bible and the Bible points to God's unbreakable promises.

[Host/Interviewer]

Springboarding off of when you said regarding Tucker Carlson and his determination to try to make a distinction between the two. You've stated this multiple times. God keeps his promises. So I'm thinking to myself, maybe in a situation like this, if we want to engage somebody like a Tucker Carlson, maybe to turn the table and ask Tucker to clarify why he thinks those promises wouldn't apply to Israel, what's his hermeneutic? How do you come to the conclusion that God made that promise and it is so clear it is a one sided covenant. It was cut by God alone while Abraham slept. So Tucker, how do you dismiss those promises? And I wonder what he would say. I mean, unless there's eschatology or he's a supersessionist, I don't know how he gets there, but that might be, I

[Dr. Al Mohler]

don't know that he gets there theologically, Todd, to be honest, I don't know that he gets there mostly theologically. I think we all know that all around us right now and virulent on the, on the Internet, out in the digital world is an antipathy towards Israel. That, I mean, I assume that's why we need to have this conversation today. We just need to admit it's very much out there and Tucker is both a sign of it and I think a driver of it.

[Host/Interviewer]

Are you seeing that out on social media, the antipathy toward Israel coming inside of evangelical churches?

[Dr. Al Mohler]

I want to tell you I am constantly contacted by pastors who are shocked by say 16 to 30 year old young men who happen to be some of the most stalwart, bright, committed young Christians who have been, I think, activated and at least serious questions have been raised in their minds. And I think it's, it's good that pastors understand this and quite frankly we'd be ready to give an answer. I'm trying to help pastors to do that.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah, you know, it's maybe, maybe a helpful way to help those young men too is just laying on the table the complications. And that just as it's a challenge for us to simplify our position and how we've arrived at our conclusion that we should encourage them. Hey, there's so many moving parts on this for you to come to this tidy little determination that this should be our attitude maybe requires a little bit more study.

[Dr. Al Mohler]

So let's do that and an open mind and most importantly, an open Bible.

[Jimmy Hicks]

All right, hang tight. We've got much more to this conversation between Todd and Dr. Al Mohler. Still to come. This is Wretched Radio.

[Fortis News Anchor (Jimmy Hicks)]

And it's now time for your daily Fortis news break production of Fortis Institute 88 members of antifa were convicted Friday on terrorism charges for their roles in a Fourth of July attack on an ICE detention facility in Texas. The group launched a premeditated assault on the Prairie Land Detention center, setting off explosives and vandalizing property, even shooting at police officers, one of whom took a bullet to the neck and survived. All eight were found guilty of providing material support to terrorists and rioting, with one defendant, Benjamin Song, also convicted of attempted murder and discharging a firearm. North Korea fired more than 10 ballistic missiles into the sea Saturday as U.S. and South Korean forces conducted a joint military drill on the peninsula. The launches splashed down off the east coast, with US Indo Pacific Command saying the event poses no immediate threat to American personnel or allies. President Trump signed two executive orders on Friday aimed at making homeownership more attainable. The first targets federal regulatory barriers that have slowed down construction and driven up costs, while the second seeks to increase competition among mortgage lenders to bring down borrowing rates. The move comes as the Senate passed bipartisan housing legislation 89 to 10, including provisions to prevent corporations from buying up single family homes. The Chicago Teachers Union wants to cancel school school on May 1 so students and teachers can join a nationwide anti Trump protest. Their stated concern? Democracy itself. Their actual track record. Only 43% of Chicago public school students can read at grade level, and just 27% are proficient at math. The union's approval rating among Chicago voters has cratered to 28%, while the mayor, a union member they spent millions to elect, sits at a stunning 14% approval. Meanwhile, a University of British Columbia professor is documenting what happens when students outsource their learning to AI after her students use chatbots to summarize readings instead of actually reading them. Exam scores plummeted from an 85 average to 64. The Oscars pulled roughly 20 million viewers this year, a far cry from the 57 million who watched in 1998. Erasmus and Poll found 54% of Americans believe movies have gotten worse over the past two decades. Hollywood keeps lecturing and America keeps reaching for their remote. Speaking of people, nobody asked for the former mayor of Gettysburg, Pennsylvania, was arrested on Friday for grooming a teenage boy. The mayor, who campaigned on expanding youth programs and LGBTQ events in the community, allegedly began a sexual relationship with a minor. The mayor resigned earlier this month, and now we know why. And that wraps up today's Fortis News break. I'm Jimmy Hicks.

[Jimmy Hicks]

If you want more, you can download

[Fortis News Anchor (Jimmy Hicks)]

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[Jimmy Hicks]

And until tomorrow, go serve your king.

[Todd Friel]

Books of the Bible it is not certain who the human author of the Book of Hebrews was. However, it is certain that the ultimate author is the Holy Spirit. The message of Hebrews is an exhortation to faith in Jesus Christ, the Mediator of the New Covenant. When you want to see how God foreshadowed and fulfilled the Gospel in the Old Testament, look to Hebrews. This is Wretched Radio with Todd Fox Real.

[Jimmy Hicks]

And we return here to Wretched Radio as Todd has been discussing the state of modern day Israel with Dr. Al Mohler.

[Tucker Carlson]

So you're saying as a Christian, if I believe in Jesus, I have to support the modern state of Israel.

[H]

I'm not saying that.

[Host/Interviewer]

Okay. Should he say that?

[Dr. Al Mohler]

I am saying that.

[Host/Interviewer]

Okay, if you were now in Ted Cruz's shoes, right. And you hear what Tucker is pressing for And Tucker says, Dr. Mohler, you have 60 seconds. Respond. How would you articulate that?

[Dr. Al Mohler]

I would say, yes, I support the nation state of Israel. I also, more importantly, more urgently, am concerned for the entirety of the Jewish people, which is theologically the nation of Israel. And so I believe it is a Christian responsibility to speak for, to advocate for, to recognize Israel and frankly to kill that distinction. Very clear in that God's eternal purposes are not to the nation state of Israel, but I believe the nation state of Israel is a part of God's unfolding plan because of his promises to Israel, his covenant nation.

[Host/Interviewer]

Now you have to step into the shoes of one Mike Huckabee. This was the interview that happened in an Israeli airport. Tucker was passing through. He sat down and he seemed to have the exact same issue, questions about Israel. And this is where he really presses in on who is a modern day Jew. Before I get to the clips with Tucker and Mike, the issue of who constitutes a modern day Jew. When you've got different types of Jewish people, if they're in Yemen, they're a Yemenite Jew. If they're in Georgia, they're a Georgian Jew. You've got them from Europe, you've got them from Spain. So if you had to explain to Tucker which one of these streams of Jewish people is the descendant of Abraham,

[Dr. Al Mohler]

I would say first of all, that's according to the determination of God in his sovereignty. And so I wouldn't claim to know every single genetic or Lineal descent question. I do know this. If they are the Jewish people, that is, if they are lineal descendants of the Jewish people, than they are to be recognized as sons and daughters of the covenant God made with Israel.

[Host/Interviewer]

What if they don't believe in Judaism?

[Dr. Al Mohler]

I believe, number one, the Bible defines bilineal descent. Israel, bilineal descent. I don't get to redefine that just because we say we're in the 21st century and so I can come up with a different definition. I will say that in the New Testament there's a very clear teaching that there will be a turn to Christ. There's going to be a recognition and celebration of the Messiah by a large group of the Jewish people. And in one sense, then we find out by God's sovereign revelation who is the true biblical Old Testament Israel and who is the continuation. I hope that's clear. In other words, I don't believe that all persons, I don't believe that those who are atheists and deny the one true and living God, I don't believe that they're going to inherit those promises. But I also will say that I think my reading of the scripture tells me that there's going to be a remarkable occurrence as a part of the end times in which a remarkably large number of Jews are going to respond and recognize Jesus, the Messiah. And I, I can't wait to see that. And that's going to come, I think, unpredictably, the same way the church comes by God's election. Unpredictably out of.

[Host/Interviewer]

Now you might kick me out of your class for this one. And, and this might be getting a little bit too, making more out of it than it should. But I see that for instance, in first century and New Testament Israel that a Jewish man or woman who didn't practice their faith, they were bad Jews, but they were still considered a Jew. On the other hand, Paul said not all of Israel is Israel because they aren't believing the promises that were given to Abraham. So once again, what this reveals in this conversation, and I think that that would be helpful for Tucker and anybody else. Just slow down. This is a lot. And if these are all moving pieces on the table, we gotta carefully put them together. And anybody who claims they've got it, that simply probably should be ignored because it ain't that simple. You're gonna kick me out of your class now?

[Dr. Al Mohler]

I owe something, beginning with recognition. I believe I owe something to every single Jewish person on the face of the planet. And that means every single Jewish person, even of lineal descent. I feel a Christian responsibility. I think this is when the Christian church has been most faithful, that responsibility has been understood. We also understand that that's at least in part because of what Paul tells us. We're engrafted onto those promises. They're not engrafted onto us. We're engrafted onto those promises. On the other hand, we also understand that the Israel of God's redemptive purpose, meaning the Old Testament people who are a part of God's redemptive purp, they're going to be represented with this vast turning towards Christ. And I think, again, that's going to be unpredictable. So I will simply say I think there'll be Orthodox Jews who are included in that. I believe there will be even unbelieving Jews who are believing in that. The same way the church is made up of those. Yes. Who come from Christian families. Yes. But the church is made up of those who've just heard the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. They have believed and been saved, and they are full inheritors of the promises.

[Host/Interviewer]

Now we're going to get to these clips, the exchange between Mike Huckabee and Tucker Carlson. But there was a second point that I think Tucker just kept returning to that I'd like to hear your take on up front, and then we'll revisit it as it reappears the borders. This was a big deal for Tucker because the promise in Genesis 15 is very specific between two rivers and Israel, it should be noted, really never filled up that promise that was given to Abraham. It's a smaller state even today. And so Tucker just kept pressing in on, so what should they get the territory up in Lebanon? Is that what you're saying? Okay, Genesis 15 between the Nile and the Euphrates. Should Israel in your understanding, Dr. Albert Mohler of Southern Seminary, should they have deed to that, that entire piece of land that's described in Genesis 15?

[Dr. Al Mohler]

They will one day to the honor and glory of God who made that covenant. As you said, he made that covenant, repeated that covenant. And so even when you look at successor covenants, including the Davidic covenant, you see the presumption of all of those promises. And as God says, again, I come back to this, I will not lie to David. And that is just one of the most fundamental declarations of Scripture. So I believe that one day Israel will possess and will include all between the Euphrates.

[Host/Interviewer]

Okay, so let me just, in an effort to help Tucker, but right now they don't. So he might say to us hey, if it says in Genesis 15, why don't you want it now? As an evangelical who loves Israel and the Jewish people, why don't you want them to have that land now?

[Dr. Al Mohler]

I'm not saying I don't.

[Host/Interviewer]

Okay, yeah.

[Dr. Al Mohler]

No, I would say, look, as Christians, we are already, already in a constant awareness of already and not yet. So in other words, believing Christians should be the last people confused by this, because we understand that God's promises are absolutely secure, yea and amen. But we also believe that we are looking forward to promises that are given to the Christian church, to God's covenant people, his new covenant people. We are given promises and we are in an already in the not yet. Why would Christians of all people be confused about Israel as a parallel and in fact, even a prior example of already and not yet? I mean, Abraham never got to see that. He never got to see his descendants as more numerous than the sands and the sea. But all of this, God's going to be faithful to every single one of his promises. May I say one other thing here? And that is this. I really get very uncomfortable when I hear evangelicals say, well, you know, that speaking of the two rivers, that's metaphorical language. You know, it is explicitly in its context, not metaphorical language. Those are concrete promises to God's glory. God's not glorified in a metaphor. He's glorified in the fulfillment of his promises.

[Host/Interviewer]

Oh, you must believe in creation, too. Okay, now, Tucker put Mike Huckabee in a very awkward position. You'll recall when, when Tucker was saying, well, hey, do you want him to have all of that land? And I think Mike Huckabee said something like, hey, yeah, take it. Well, he can say that as a Southern Baptist, but as an ambassador, it was a little problematic. I was squirming for the man. Yeah, the big.

[Dr. Al Mohler]

Are you going to play that?

[Host/Interviewer]

Oh, we're going to get to it. I'm going to march through it in sequence in fairness, so that nobody says that we've Jerry rigged this. This is Tucker Carlson. This is Mike Huckabee.

[Tucker Carlson]

Who are the people? Who are the modern.

[Mike Huckabee]

Yes.

[Tucker Carlson]

Who are, who are the descendants? So we know, and I believe, and I agree with you as a Christian, that God promised this land from modern day Iraq to modern day Egypt to this people, the Jews, to Abram's. Actually, not to the, to Abram's descendants, as it says in Genesis 15. Who are his descendants now and how do we know who they are?

[Mike Huckabee]

I think they're the Jews. And we know who they are because they've always been a Jewish people. There has been an unbroken line of Jewish people and they've lived in this land for 3,800 years. Sometimes not very many of them because they were chased out all over the world. They were hunted down. They were almost annihilated during the Holocaust. They came back to this day. Tucker, they represent, you know, how many Jews there are in the whole world.

[Host/Interviewer]

Okay, they get into a tussle here. Very specifically, Tucker made a distinction between Abraham's descendants and the Jewish people. Is that a fair distinction?

[Dr. Al Mohler]

You know, I will simply say I think that comes from a bad intellectual theological pedigree. So I'm troubled when I hear it. I think there are people of goodwill and good conviction who might say it and not mean anything particularly injurious about it. I mean, let's remember that Abraham had another son, first of all. But that's the promise to Abraham's children through Sarah. And so it's Abraham and Isaac and Jacob. It's interesting in the Old Testament how the pattern comes so that we just get that really, really clear. But they are all lineal descendants of Abraham. So yes, not all the lineal descendants of Abraham are Israel, but all of Israel are, in a true sense, lineal descendants of Abraham.

[Jimmy Hicks]

And we still have more to go. There has been a whole lot of information given.

[Fortis News Anchor (Jimmy Hicks)]

I hope you've been taking, taking notes. If you haven't, you can go to

[Jimmy Hicks]

Fortis plus and listen again. But hey, stay with us. It's not over yet. More to come right after this

[Fortis News Anchor (Jimmy Hicks)]

conflict.

[Jimmy Hicks]

That's not an if in your life, that's a when. You will most definitely disagree with your spouse, your kids, your co workers, your in laws, maybe all of them in the same week. The question is whether those disagreements turn your home into a war zone or something you can actually resolve. That's what our resource Conflict is all about. Todd Friel, who admits he's an expert in conflict mostly because he's caused so much of it, and Dr. John street will both challenge you to respond in ways so radically biblical that even the people you've been fighting with will take notice. They'll walk you through biblical reconciliation step by step, so you can actually heal what's been broken. If you're exhausted from the same arguments on repeat, if your home feels more like a battlefield than a refuge, there is a better way. And it's not another self help technique. It is scripture. Conflict is streaming right now on Fortis for free. Just download the app on your smartphone, on your smart TV, or simply go

[Host/Interviewer]

to fortisplus.org Is it possible a Christian university can actually be ranked high when it comes to preparing students for the real world? The hat tip to Masters University. You want to send your kids someplace where they actually still teach the Bible, not just based on a document that they may be having a file cabinet someplace, but they actually use the Bible there. The education at the Master's university, not only biblical but oh so practical courses, diplomas, degrees, they can be achieved online or of course, on their beautiful campus in Southern California. Would you like to learn more about the Master's university to prepare you or your child for the future? I encourage you to visit Masters. Edu Wretched Masters Edu Wretched.

[Jimmy Hicks]

Look, I'm going to be straight with you. Every every man knows what it's like to fight a battle no one else can see. You wake up. You're determined that today is going to be different. This time, you're going to be stronger than the temptation. But then evening comes, there you are again, right back where you started. You're making promises to yourself that you already know deep down you're not going to keep tomorrow. Here's what no one wants to admit. You can't win this fight with willpower. Trust me, if determination alone could break the chains of lust and sin, you would already be free. You've probably figured that out by now. The filters, the accountability apps, the promises to your wife or to yourself, they're just band aids on a wound that needs surgery. Real freedom, the kind that actually lasts. It only comes when Christ changes you from the inside out. Not just your habits, but your actual heart. That's what Todd Friel gets into very deeply with his resource Play the the Man. It's available right now as an ebook, an audiobook and video series [e-mail].

[Todd Friel]

Important Dates in Christian History, 1910-1915 the fundamentals are published and demonstrate the great divide in American Christianity known as the Modernist Fundamentalist controversy. Fundamentalists began to set themselves apart from society as a witness for Christ. This is Wretched Radio with Todd Friel,

[Jimmy Hicks]

and we are back here on Wretched Radio as we continue the conversation between Todd and Dr. Al Mohler.

[Host/Interviewer]

Tucker wasn't having it.

[Tucker Carlson]

My question is, and it's not a bumper sticker answer, it's a sincere answer. How do we know? Because what you're saying is that certain people have a title to a highly contested region. They own it in some deep sense. So I think it's fair to ask, who are they and how do we know? So the current prime minister's ancestors weren't from here. Within recorded history there he has no deed. Bibi Netanyahu on one side. His family's from Poland, they're from Eastern Europe. So how do we know that he has a connection to the people who God promised the land to Abram's descendants. How do we know that?

[Mike Huckabee]

Well, if you take the genealogies that come not only from the Old but the New Testament, you see that there is a historical connection through the entirety of the Old and the New Testament that details the Jewish connection to this land.

[Tucker Carlson]

Does that include Bibi's family? How do we know that if his family scattered? But how do we know it's the same people? No. Why is that crazy? If you say to me, if they

[Mike Huckabee]

speak the same language, if they worship the same God, if they follow the same Bible. Bible, if they follow the same cultures and traditions, and they always pray next year in Jerusalem and they pray for the peace of Jerusalem and they pray facing toward Jerusalem, does that not give you a little bit of a clue as to who they are?

[Host/Interviewer]

I've never met Mike Huckabee. He seems like just the warmest fellow, but I don't know that I'd want to play hard against him because he can hold his own. All right, Dr. Mohler, you're sitting in the chair of Mike Huckabee and Tucker is quite adamant about this. These modern day Jews, they're floating all over the place. They're not following the religion, they don't speak Yiddish, they don't speak Hebrew. So who are the Jewish people? You would say I have no right

[Dr. Al Mohler]

to define the Jewish people in a way that is disconnected from the biblical definition of the Jewish people. And so I'm going to go back to lineal descent and national identity, ethnicity in the Greek term. Just looking back at Israel and the history of Israel includes the dispersion. So I just want to raise an irony here, if I may. Here's the irony. All the anti Semites know who to hate. So how do they dare ask us

[Host/Interviewer]

who the Jewish people are?

[Dr. Al Mohler]

And you know, so I'll simply say the pogroms, the genocides, the hatred toward the Jewish people throughout centuries has demonstrated, you know, so it's a little late to ask who the Jewish people are after they have faced so much anti Semitism and efforts to wipe the Jewish people off the face of the earth. So in other words, Mike Huckabee kind of incarnates in one human body. The point, he is not the ambassador to Old Testament Israel. He is the ambassador to the state of Israel, which I believe is a holding vessel for the nation of Israel.

[Host/Interviewer]

You know, I don't know what's in Tucker Carlson's heart. And so we'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he's not really looking too forward an argument to undermine and dismantle. But I nevertheless, in just considering his argument, it appears to be, hey, because we don't have the DNA test of every person who claims to be a Jew today, we can't know who's a Jew. It seems that's kind of what he's forwarding. And I just don't know that it has any validity to it. Does it?

[Dr. Al Mohler]

Well, I think that's a part of the unfolding promise of God and also the judgment of God. I mean, let's face it, Israel. Israel rejected the Christ. And there are consequences that are made very clear in the New Testament. The destruction of the temple in A.D. 70, that wasn't an historical accident. We believe in a sovereign God. He was acting. There's a confusion of the Jewish people and through successions of interbreeding and intermarriage and all kinds of other things.

[Host/Interviewer]

So ethnicity can make one a Jew. The practicing of the religion can make a Jew.

[Fortis News Anchor (Jimmy Hicks)]

Is this.

[Host/Interviewer]

Does this help in any way that a proselyte, somebody who came into Israel and said, I want to be Jewish, it's Ruth moves from Moab to Israel with mother in law. She became. Now, would she have been considered a Jew or would she have remained a Moabitess?

[Dr. Al Mohler]

I don't mean to confuse this, but I think the answer to some extent is yes. She was both a Jewish and a Moabite. This is a part of the glory of. I mean, she's included in the genealogy of Jesus. In other words. In other words, what you have there is Paul tells us that the redeemed, the church of the Lord Jesus Christ, Christ's New Covenant people are engrafted onto the promises of Israel. But I think it's important to recognize that Ruth is among those who is a picture or a type even of the church in that she is incorporated, she's engrafted into the promises of Israel. I'm getting emotional about this. Isn't this one of the sweetest aspects of the gospel of Jesus Christ? We see in Ruth a picture of the gospel before the gospel. So, yeah, I'll preach, boy.

[Host/Interviewer]

I don't want to bring up Boaz because that kinsman Redeemed. Mere sermon is just loaded in your holster. All right, let's continue. Tucker and Mike Huckabee, Netanyahu's parents, did not speak Hebrew. Okay.

[Tucker Carlson]

They didn't live in this region. Netanyahu, the founders of this country, were mostly secular. Some of them were avowed atheists. They were not praying for the peace of Jerusalem. They weren't praying at all because they

[Dr. Al Mohler]

didn't believe in God.

[Tucker Carlson]

There's no genealogy linking their families to the people of this land 3,000 years ago. They're none. So how do we know? Since they didn't share a language, they didn't share a religion, they had no religion whatsoever. How do we know that they had a right to come here from Eastern Europe and.

[Mike Huckabee]

But they were taken. They were scattered to Eastern. They were scattered all over the world. There were many in Ethiopia. They were in Russia. They were in Poland. They were throughout Asia. Jews were all over the place. But they were still Jews. But they were still Jews.

[Host/Interviewer]

Oh, you know what? I'm having a little flashback to what you said earlier, Dr. Mohler, that the United nations, in the mid-40s, if you will, after World War II, they even recognized it as their land because they had been dispersed. But Tucker's kind of weaving into and forgetting about. We do have Genesis yet. That is a genuine deed. That is the title to the land that belongs to them. So you've got both a secular recognition. Those people should be in that land, and you've got a biblical mandate.

[Dr. Al Mohler]

I think it's so important to recognize that Israel was established, even in secular terms, as a Jewish state. The United nations didn't say, we don't have a clue who a Jewish person is. Instead, Israel actually used the argument of the right of return. That word return is so important. That's morally freighted. It wasn't a right to conquer. It wasn't a right to just possess. It was a right to return. And, you know, this is so biblical. This is so biblical. What do the sons do with the body of Joseph? They bring it back to the land of promise. There's a return. This is. I mean, Exodus, you know, all of this. There's just this glorious return, which is a theme. And that was very much a part of the understanding of what was taking place in the founding of Israel. And again, I think it's really important for us to make clear even the secular leaders at the time, by the way, most of them, in framing this argument, coming from Christian lands where there was a recognition of Israel in the plan and purpose of God. And there was the recognition that Israel would be a Jewish state. It was defined that way.

[Host/Interviewer]

This is the last clip between Tucker Carlson and Mike Huckabee.

[Tucker Carlson]

Are you speaking of an ethnic group or a religious group?

[Host/Interviewer]

Yes. Right, Dr. Muller. Yes, it's. It's both of those things.

[Dr. Al Mohler]

Absolutely.

[Host/Interviewer]

Absolutely. And I wonder if that isn't the key to his confusion.

[Mike Huckabee]

Well, I think you're looking at, for many people, it is religious. There are people who may not have a deep religious connection to Judaism, but they're still Jews.

[Tucker Carlson]

Okay, so it's an ethnic category.

[Mike Huckabee]

It is ethnic, but it is also religious. It is rooted in religion. You can't take it out of it. Now, that means.

[Tucker Carlson]

Then how can an atheist.

[Mike Huckabee]

Well, I will tell you this. There are some people who say I'm Christian. They never go to church, they never pray, they never read their Bible, they don't tithe.

[Tucker Carlson]

But they're not entitled to citizenship on the basis of that. They're not entitled to.

[Mike Huckabee]

They still call themselves Christian even though they identify in ways.

[Host/Interviewer]

Alrighty. Dr. Mohler, how would you explain this to Tucker?

[Dr. Al Mohler]

Well, for the first time, I disagree with Ambassador Huckabee.

[Host/Interviewer]

That's because. You know what, I didn't want to say that, but I thought that isn't the correct parallel because. No, this is different. The east and the West. Go ahead.

[Dr. Al Mohler]

We do not believe that unbelieving persons are in the church. We do believe that on a temporary basis, unbelieving Jews are part of Israel. So in other words, the last thing I want to do is define the church as a mixed body of believers and unbelievers. So let's not do that. But Israel is right now a mixed body of believers and unbelievers. I do believe that in the end of all things, to the glory of God in honoring of his own word. And by the way, with the church of the Lord Jesus Christ as God's redeemed people, seeing God's glory unfold in his faithfulness to the people of the Covenant of Genesis 15, I think all that's going to be a part of the glory of God at the end. I think we've had a good discussion. I'm honored to have been in this discussion with you. We don't run from this discussion, but I do lament the way the discussion is now thrown to us by these developments in the culture. And, you know, God's judgment is sure and there are huge issues at stake. And so I want to warn. I want to warn my fellow believers in the Lord Jesus Christ tread here very carefully. The scripture warns us against taking a position of antipathy towards Israel and lack of respect towards Israel. And as I say, that's first of all to the Israel, which is the covenant nation, going all the way back to the Book of Genesis. But there is a responsibility also, I believe, to the nation state of Israel. Not exactly the same thing, but it is right now, as I say, a providential holding vessel for God's unfolding purposes.

[Host/Interviewer]

Dr. Albert Mohler, Southern Seminary.

[Jimmy Hicks]

Very grateful and thank you for listening to wretched radio today, and we hope you come back tomorrow. Until then, go serve your king.