Do Catholics and Evangelicals Believe the Same Gospel? + PCUSA + Creation

Summary

Wretched Radio with Todd Friel — Episode Summary

Episode: "Do Catholics and Evangelicals Believe the Same Gospel? + PCUSA + Creation"

Date: July 13, 2026
Podcast: Wretched Radio
Host: Todd Friel (also featuring Jimmy Hicks, Dr. Jason Lyle, and commentary on Marie Mazzante)

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Overview

In this episode, Todd Friel and Jimmy Hicks return to discuss some of the most pressing theological and cultural issues within the Christian community, including the crucial distinctions between Catholic and Evangelical views of the Gospel, denominational trends among Presbyterians and Methodists, and challenges to the biblical account of creation. The conversation is lively and candid, mixing in personal updates, humor, and deep dives into doctrine with warnings about compromise and cultural drift.

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Personal Catch-Up & Lessons from Hardship (00:38–09:20)

• Jimmy Hicks returns after two back surgeries, sharing reflections on suffering, humility, the importance of community, and the value of delegating.
• Notable Quotes:
  • “We have the best listeners in the world because you told them to text me, and they did in droves and droves, and they're still doing it.” — Jimmy Hicks (04:46)
  • “Isn't it good to be a Christian? ... Isn't it nice that you can go into a church of sound believers and you just feel like you're home?” — Jimmy Hicks & Todd Friel (04:11)
  • “My hand doesn't have to be involved in everything.” — Jimmy Hicks (05:18)
• Humor Break: Todd shares “dad jokes” and an article vindicating their value for familial bonding.
  • “When does a dad joke become a dad joke? ... When it becomes apparent.” — Todd Friel (07:24)

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Primary Discussion 1: Do Catholics and Evangelicals Believe the Same Gospel? (15:03–26:01)

The Rise of Catholic Apologetics Online

• Todd introduces Marie Mazzante, a Catholic podcaster gaining popularity for arguing there's little practical difference between Catholic and Evangelical beliefs about salvation.
• Marie’s Argument:
  • Evangelical (“ex-Catholic”) claims never to have heard the Gospel in 30 years of Catholicism, then lists a four-step Gospel.
  • Marie (as a Catholic) counters that these concepts are embedded in weekly Mass and Catholic teaching.
• Evangelical Clarification:
  • Jimmy & Todd emphasize crucial Reformation distinctives: grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone—in contrast to Catholic additions (sacraments, works, intercession of saints/Mary).
• Key Quotes:
  • “What is the gospel? Well, according to Protestants, it is grace alone, faith alone, through Christ alone. A Roman Catholic would say, oh, yes... Not alone. It requires more than that.” — Todd Friel (16:58)
  • “If I ask Jimmy to pray for me, I'm talking to a live human being who can pray for me. We don't speak to people who are dead.” — Jimmy Hicks (18:32)
  • “When you add anything to salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, then you have a different system.” — Todd Friel (23:38)

Timestamps & Key Moments

• [15:03] — Introduction to Marie Mazzante’s video and its growing influence.
• [16:10] — Marie begins recounting her Catholic upbringing and evangelical "conversion."
• [17:13] — Her four-point definition of the gospel.
• [17:24] — Jimmy clarifies repentance & faith as the biblical response.
• [18:26] — The Catholic perspective on praying to saints/Mary; correction from the hosts.
• [19:30] — Discussion of Catholic liturgy, biblical affirmations, and missing elements (like the necessity of works/sacraments for salvation).
• [24:47] — Explaining the deep differences surrounding the Eucharist (transubstantiation, repeated sacrifice).
• [25:10] — Warning to Evangelicals: “While she seems earnest and she's very, very clever, she's simply not telling the truth.”

Broader Trend: Evangelicals Turning to "Ancient" Churches

• [21:11] — Quoting from WNG.org: Many (especially older women) are migrating from evangelicalism to Roman Catholic or Anglican/Eastern Orthodox churches to seek reverence, history, and theological depth absent in contemporary, entertainment-driven evangelical churches.

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Primary Discussion 2: Church Trends & Denominational News—PCUSA and Beyond (29:48–39:54)

Decline & Compromise in Mainline Protestantism

• PCUSA (Presbyterian Church USA):
  • Massive membership losses (down from 2.5 million to 1 million since 2000), attributed to leftward theological and social drift.
  • Latest General Assembly votes to support “gender-affirming care” for minors, including body-altering surgeries, and removes age limitations. (31:05–33:20)
  • Todd’s warning: “Pastor, don’t go their route. Don’t get soft, don’t get squishy. Do not compromise. Do not become seeker sensitive.”
  • “They're dying. I'll be happy to visit that funeral.” — Todd Friel (36:35)
• UMC (United Methodist Church):
  • Asbury Seminary is removed as an approved school by the denomination for refusing to affirm new sexual ethics. (35:55)
  • “While we had hoped for a different outcome, our focus remains steadfast on our unchanging calling.” — President of Asbury Theological Seminary (36:35)
• Roman Catholicism:
  • New York Archdiocese proposes $800 million abuse settlement. Todd contrasts this scale of scandal with evangelicalism (38:00).
• EPC (Evangelical Presbyterian Church):
  • Debate over ordaining those with “same-sex attraction;” risks of trying to find a perpetually ‘middle way’ (39:00).

Timestamps

• [29:48] — Introduction to denominational news, the need for transcendence and immanence in worship.
• [31:05] — PCUSA loses members, supports “gender affirming care.”
• [35:55] — Methodist Asbury Seminary controversy.
• [38:00] — Catholic abuse settlements.
• [39:00] — EPC “third way” and warning about drifting left.

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Creation & Science Segment with Dr. Jason Lyle (43:45–54:40)

Refuting Evolution & Affirming Biblical Creation

• Microevolution vs. Macroevolution:
  • Dr. Jason Lyle clarifies that while animals change (e.g., different breeds of dogs), they always remain the same “kind.” New species may form, but mosquitoes are still mosquitoes, dogs are still dogs. (43:45–47:10)
  • “Animals have changed a bit since creation... but organisms have always remained the same kind, but you can get variations and even speciation.” — Dr. Jason Lyle (49:39, 50:07)
• DNA and Variation:
  • Dr. Lyle explains the complexity of DNA, the genetic mechanisms for variation within kinds, and the impossibility of random processes producing human beings.
  • “The reason that you're a person and not a cabbage is because you have instructions to make a person, whereas a cabbage has DNA instructions to make a cabbage. And believe me, you got the long end of the stick on that one.” — Dr. Lyle (52:20)
  • “The number of unique children a married couple could have is greater than the number of atoms in the universe. That’s the amount of variety God has built into human beings. All of that built into Adam and Eve.” (54:20)
• Key Takeaway: Science does not undermine the biblical account, and evolution presupposes a worldview hostile to creation (46:13–47:59).

Humor & Light Moments

• “If your cat could text you back, he wouldn't.” — Todd, on a cat-themed kitchen towel (50:00)
• “I don't believe that there. There were poodles in the Garden of Eden. Right? ... There had to have been a cat somewhere in the breeding line of poodles.” — Todd (49:23)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “What is the gospel? Well, according to Protestants, it is grace alone, faith alone, through Christ alone. A Roman Catholic would say, oh, yes, it is about grace. Oh, yes, it is about faith. Oh, yes, it is about Christ. Not alone. It requires more than that.” — Todd Friel (16:58)
• “When you add anything to salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, then you have a different system.” — Todd Friel (23:38)
• “They're dying. I'll be happy to visit that funeral. ... Because they should. They're no longer Christian.” — Todd Friel on the PCUSA (36:35)
• “The number of unique children a married couple could have is greater than the number of atoms in the universe.” — Dr. Jason Lyle (54:20)

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Episode Flow & Timestamps

| Segment | Timestamps | |------------------------------------------------------|-----------------| | Jimmy Hicks Returns & Lessons from Suffering | 00:38–09:20 | | Dad Jokes & Family Bonding Science | 07:13–09:02 | | Hermeneutics Mini-Teaching | 14:35–15:03 | | Marie Mazzante: Catholic vs Evangelical Gospel | 15:03–26:01 | | PCUSA, UMC, RCC, and EPC News & Warnings | 29:48–39:54 | | Creation Science w/ Dr. Jason Lyle | 43:45–54:40 |

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Conclusion

This episode is a robust exploration of contemporary challenges in theology, church identity, denominational drift, and creation science, all presented with the candid, sometimes humorous style characteristic of Wretched Radio. Todd Friel and his team urge listeners to discern between truth and attractive half-truths, especially as lines blur in ecumenical dialogues and the church is pressured by cultural and scientific narratives. Their clear warnings and apologetic instruction are especially pertinent for both lay believers and church leaders navigating today's complex religious landscape.

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For More:

• Dr. Jason Lyle’s content: fortisplus.org
• Wretched Radio archives and related resources: Wretched.org

Transcript

[Todd Friel]

Wretched radio begins in 3, 2, 1.

[Jimmy Hicks]

What is the Bible? Who wrote the Bible?

[Dr. Jason Lyle]

The church will continue to be even more irrelevant when it quotes letters from 2,000 years ago. Jesus loves me. This I know, for the Bible tells me so, is where our trouble began. It sounds to me like the voice of someone who really has an appalling ignorance of what the Bible says about itself and what Jesus said about it.

[Todd Friel]

It's time for Wretched Rad with Tone Frio.

[Jimmy Hicks]

Don't worry. These are happy tears. This is Wretched Radio. Welcome back to the one to the only handsome and a little bit crabby Jimmy Hicks. You've been gone for almost three weeks now.

It seems like a month, but weren't

you the fellow who said, I'll be back in a couple of days? Weren't we optimistic?

We certainly were.

So three weeks later, here you are, you're back in the saddle again. How are you feeling since the massive back. Not one, but two back surgeries?

Yeah, I'm feeling fine. I feel okay. I'm definitely better than I have been, especially when I first got home from the hospital. Every day is an improvement.

Did they tell you how hard it was going to be?

You know, I think they did in a round and about way.

But that's my issue is. Well, this will be a pretty simple procedure and you might have some discomfort, obviously might have some mobility issues. For a little bit. You were just flat out, like, whacked. I was for a few days. And by the way, congratulations on getting off of drugs. How was your little time with oxy?

It was interesting, that's for sure. It was definitely interesting. But.

Oh, that stuff is so dangerous, isn't it?

Man, I tell you, I tried to go off of it after two weeks and my. I didn't realize because I've never been on it for that long a period of time. I didn't realize that you can't just go cold turkey.

I'm with the oxy.

Yeah. And so I was sweating and shaking and I called my doctor and he said, yeah, you need to take it.

Yeah, you think that's bad? Try some SSRIs. Increasingly, it is being revealed to get yourself off of SSRIs is such a thing. You have to microdose down because if your brain has been on it for so long to just go cold turkey, you will get really seriously hurt by it. The detox process of SSRIs might be right up there with your little oxytrip that you were taking. So you got two zippers behind You. And are you feeling better?

I think so. I think so. I've noticed. So the biggest reason I had the surgery was obviously there was weakness and numbness in my right hand and leg. The numbness is still there, but the weakness is gone.

Right. So that's progress.

That is progress. And I'm optimistic about the numbness. They say that it could take up to nine months, possibly for the nerves to heal themselves. So I've just got to give it some time.

All right. And the cane, is it be. Just be honest, Jimmy. Is it for show?

No.

Or is it so that you could potentially just hurt somebody?

Neither. It's for safety. It's. It's for just in case. I'm not. I'm not necessarily confined to it, but there are times where I feel a little wobbly and I'm glad I have it.

All right, let's. Okay. So you're feeling better health wise? We'll keep praying for that regard. But tell me, what, sir, did you learn? You had to have had some introspective time to consider the bigger things in life.

Well, so a couple of things I learned. One I want to say first off, we have the best listeners in the world because you told them to text me, and they did in droves and droves, and they're still doing it.

That's sweet.

Yeah, they are. And I wish I could respond back to them, but unfortunately I can't. But I just want to thank them for that. That was definitely an encouragement and a pick me up in a time when I needed it.

I'm so glad. Isn't it good to be a Christian?

Absolutely.

Seriously, isn't it nice that you can go into a church of sound believers and you just feel like you're home? That's just one of the bennies. Okay, so any big things? Like I've decided to become a Buddhist?

No, nothing like that. I think I shared with you guys an update about my wife. That's the biggest thing that I learned was just how much of a. Just a special person she is. And I'm so grateful for her. And I wish I would have noticed and seen and like it's things that I know, but I just saw it for the first time with clarity just how selfless she is. And so that's the biggest thing.

Look at you. Just a gentle teddy bear.

The second thing is, is this personal struggle for me for many, many years has been delegating and I had no choice being out like this. I had to rely on other people to help me and it scared me because I don't like to rely on other people. And I had to this time and it worked out just fine. You know, actually, my hand doesn't have to be involved in everything.

Wow, that is a lesson.

That was a big lesson.

Wow, that's a big deal, because. What's the word I'm looking for? Control freak pretty much is what you've historically been. Because you just like to do it yourself, because you just find it to be easier and you just think you're better than everyone.

Well, you just know it's gonna be done the way you want it done.

Number one, whether it's better or not.

That's right. And you know it's gonna get done. And that was me. It just.

You needed help.

Well, yeah. Yeah, I needed help this time for sure.

All right. And just so everybody knows, even though you were like totally whacked, flying high on oxygen, nevertheless, you were still producing the program.

Yeah, so I only actually missed three days of work, if you want to get technical about it.

That's amazing. Yeah, that's absolutely amazing. But the reason for your crabbiness this morning is.

The reason for my crabbiness this morning is because you changed everything.

Yeah, little bit. But the thing that hurts so much, Jimmy, we got all this new equipment for you because it's your birthday. Yeah, it is. Happy birthday. Sorry you didn't receive the birthday present with the joy that we anticipated. Nevertheless, happy birthday to you. I have a gift for you. Jimmy, I've been holding on to this now for weeks since you've been gone. Okay, you ready for this bad boy?

I don't know.

This is from the Washington Post. Wow, it must have been a slow news day at the Washington Post. Here it is. Science suggests cringe worthy dad jokes may serve an actual purpose. You've been vindicated.

Thank you, Washington Post.

By the way, Jimmy, when does a dad joke become a dad joke?

Is this a dad joke? I don't know.

When it becomes apparent.

That's a good one.

It's in the article. So, a professor of psychology at the University of North Carolina at Greensboro. Where did these grants come from that fund this type of research? In a colleague analyzed 32,000 dad jokes. There's a lot of dad jokes, aren't there?

Yeah.

And they determined that it's actually. It forms bonding so that it can be good inside of a family despite all of the eye rolling that your kids do every time that you do a dad joke. Oh, by the way, Jimmy, did you hear about the two thieves who Stole a calendar.

Uh, yeah.

They each got six months. What they got. So humor is a playful social glue that makes everyone feel a little bit better. Well, not everyone. A little more at ease and closer to the people. People that they live with. So that's your present, Jimmy. You can continue doing dad jokes. They tap into not only wit, but also the social dimension of humor. What the researcher calls relational fusion. Sort of like your back surgery was just that humor can be powerfully binding. Oh, by the way, Jimmy.

Yeah?

I was wondering why the first Frisbee kept getting bigger and bigger. Then it hit me. It's all dad joke.

That's funny.

Yeah. Right. Right. So there you go.

I don't know why you don't like these. These are hilarious.

Hilarious. They are amusing is what they are. They're absolutely amusing. So welcome back. You didn't receive your birthday present as well as we had hoped, but you're. You're vindicated with your dad jokes. You're recovering. You're doing well. You've learned some along the way, and we learned some lessons, too.

Oh, you did?

Yeah, we did, Jimmy. This is actually something that I knew, but I was simply reminded of. It is a rare thing these days, not just ministry, but I think in almost every work context, that the people who are committed to a mission or a goal or a vision are very rare. And people are very reticent these days to do hard things in commitment to the goal. But you're one of those guys. You're one of those guys. Even though you were really. You should not have been working, you continued to work. You continue to just produce so much stuff around here that so many people benefit from. So all that to say, we're grateful for you. We are super glad that you're back, and we're sorry that you're crabby.

It'll get better with my back. It'll get better.

Well. And when you get familiar with the equipment.

That's right.

Do you know who else actually is, like, what I'm describing about you, Jimmy?

Who's that?

Adrian.

Oh, yeah. He's crabby, too.

No, he's not. Well, maybe he is. I don't think typically he is.

I've never seen him crabby a lot.

No, I haven't either. A lot of you might remember Adrian because he worked here for six years. Adrian came to us when he didn't even have a whisker when he first got here. Now he's got a beard, and he was a part of the team for so many years, and he's one of those guys who works so hard. So we did some rearranging of the furniture here while you were gone with the new equipment that should hopefully help us be more efficient with production. And I said, well, that wall over there, it's kind of blank. Hey, I've got an idea. We could take one of the barn doors from over at the studios and we could put it here. And we just. I just left it at that. Well, two hours later, I see Adrian schlepping a barn door by himself. That thing is easily 150 by himself because he's that kind of guy and you're that kind of guy and we're super grateful for you. Jimmy Hicks, welcome back.

Glad to be back.

This is Wretched Radio.

So your phone rings and there's a friend at church who just lost her husband. You want to help, but honestly, you don't know what to say. Or your son asks you what it means to be a man and you realize you've never really thought it through biblically. Or maybe there's someone at work who says anxiety is just a chemical imbalance and you're not sure how to respond or even if you should. That's why Fortis forums exist. This is why real teaching on grief and marriage and mental health and manhood and more. And they're all available for you to view right now on Fortis Plus. These aren't feel good devotionals. These are Christ centered, scripture saturated conversations that actually equip you for the moments that matter. You can download the Fortis app right now absolutely free of charge. You can download it on your smartphone, your smart TV, or just simply go to fortisplus.org and the next time you don't know what to say, you might actually have an answer.

Perhaps you've been wondering, is there a Christian university that isn't woke or that hasn't compromised on important biblical doctrines like, you know, the age of the earth? There is. It's the Master's University in Southern California. Beautiful campus. All of the athletics and activities that you've come to expect from universities. But it's more than that. The academic programs are most excellent. Preparing students for the future. The Washington Post just said number six for preparing students for the real world. All that plus the Master's University is at Woke up and it is thoroughly biblical. Would you like to learn more? I encourage you to visit the Master's University at Master's Edu Wretched Masters Edu Wretched.

You know, you can love the Lord with absolutely everything in you and still go mute. When somebody asks you how do you even know the Bible is true? You feel the answer deep down. You just can't put it into words. The reason? Reasons go deeper than most of us were ever even shown. Skeptics know that too. That's why they start in Genesis and then they work backward, because if you crack the foundation, then everything built on top of it will start to wobble. But when you trace the logic and the morality and the science all the way down, you find the very same thing every single time. Reality only makes sense if the Bible is true, and Dr. Jason Lyle has spent his entire career studying the universe, and in his new series, Irrefutable Proof of Creation, he asks the hard questions about God and turns doubt into confidence. Irrefutable Proof of Creation is streaming right now on Fortis, with new episodes dropping every week. Download the Fortis plus app on your smartphone, your smart TV, or you can go to fortisplus.org.

[Todd Friel]

Hermeneutics Hermeneutics is the art and science of interpreting Scripture. One key principle of hermeneutics is reading verses in context. Words can have multiple meanings, but the intended meaning of a word is understood from its context in the surrounding words, verses, paragraphs and chapters, all understood in the context of the Bible as a whole. This is Wretched Radio with Todd from

[Jimmy Hicks]

Real Clever and oh so deceptive. This is Wretched Radio. Marie Mazzante. She has perhaps popped up in your YouTube feed. She's all the rage. She's a cradle Catholic, she's a podcaster, and she's trying to persuade you, Dear Evangelical, you've got nothing to worry about when it comes to having a Roman Catholic friend. Why? Because they, according to Marie, believe the same thing you do. In other words, she's a Roman Catholic apologist and she is on the warpath to persuade people to come home to the mother. What you're about to hear is a video. It has been seen over 800,000 times. In other words, this woman is gaining traction and it's very clever. But if you don't listen carefully, you could easily be deceived by her arguments. What you're about to hear is a conversation between her as an ex Catholic, presumably an evangelical, now with herself being a Roman Catholic. So it's gonna be a back and forth between an evangelical ex Catholic and a Roman Catholic. Listen, Bowie. Bowie Calfoe I don't know if I've

[Marie Mazzante]

ever told you this, but I used to be Catholic. You know, I was born into it, went to mass every week for over 30 years. Went to Catholic school, the whole thing. But I never actually heard the gospel until I left and became a real Christian.

[Jimmy Hicks]

Ah, so she's taken a Pokemon at us and she's now going to try to defeat our argument where we would be deceived by her response to the accusation. That is an evangelical who went to a Catholic church. Now, evangelical who went to a Catholic church, never heard the gospel. It has everything to do with the definition of gospel. What is the gospel? Well, according to Protestants, it is grace alone, faith alone, through Christ alone. A Roman Catholic would say, oh, yes, it is about grace. Oh, yes, it is about faith. Oh, yes, it is about Christ. Not alone. It requires more than that.

[Marie Mazzante]

30 years and never heard the gospel. Okay, I have to ask.

[Jimmy Hicks]

What do you mean by the gospel exactly? Great question, actually.

[Marie Mazzante]

Pretty simple. Four steps. One, we're all sinners who need God's forgiveness. Two, only God can save us. Three, Jesus died on the cross for our sins. And four, we accept him as our personal Lord and Savior.

[Dr. Jason Lyle]

That's it?

[Jimmy Hicks]

Well, no, that's actually not it. It is repentance and faith. We don't accept Jesus. We repent and put our trust in him. He accepts us. That's the evangelical response. It's now going to be refuted by herself, a Roman Catholic.

[Marie Mazzante]

And I never heard any of that at Mass. Can I show you something? Sure. Step one, we're sinners who need forgiveness. Every single Mass, before anything else happens, every Catholic stands up and prays out loud. I confess to Almighty God that I have sinned through my own fault, in my thoughts, in my words, and what I have done and what I have failed to do.

[Jimmy Hicks]

Excellent. No problem with that.

[Marie Mazzante]

We don't whisper it privately. We say it together out loud in public every week. Okay, but Catholics don't believe God alone saves them. You pray to Mary, you pray to saints. It's not biblical.

[Jimmy Hicks]

Okay, that was actually a side road. That was not well scripted. That was a distraction from the conversation about what the Gospel is. Nevertheless, we need to listen carefully. This woman is gaining traction. The accusation from the evangelical. Hey, you pray to Mary?

[Marie Mazzante]

Ask Mary to pray to God for us. The same way I'd ask you right now. Hey, pray for me.

[Jimmy Hicks]

Actually, that's not the same thing. See, here's the difference. If I ask Jimmy to pray for me, I'm talking to a live human being who can pray for me. We don't speak to people who are dead. We speak to our live Savior, but we do not speak to human beings. We do not communicate with any. There isn't a single Bible verse that even hints that you can talk to somebody who is in heaven except for the Trinitarian God. So this is a little sneaky defense here. Hey, it's just. It's just like asking somebody else to pray for you. Other. Other than. No. No, it's not, actually.

[Marie Mazzante]

I mean, I think you saved me. No, but that's different. Is it just so we're clear, right after that confession, we pray the Gloria out loud together. Lord Jesus Christ, only son of the Father, Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world, have mercy on us. You alone are the Holy One. You alone are the Lord. You alone are the Most High, Jesus Christ.

[Jimmy Hicks]

Now she's leaving information out, isn't she? She's not talking about what the Roman Catholic Church has codified about Mary being a co. Redemptrix. Hello. Being an intercessor, that her merits somehow help us in heaven. So what they say about Jesus, some of their liturgy is super fine. If you go read any of the liturgical in the front of the hymnal, any of the liturgies that are laid out. The Confessions. Wow, they're amazing. Methodist, Presbyterian, Episcopalian. If they're using their old hymnals, they have a lot of great stuff. The same thing is true with the Roman Catholic Church. Yes, they admit that Jesus Christ is the Holy One, but they also add to it. They say that, yes, Jesus forgives sins, but they add to it. So what she is doing in an effort to persuade evangelicals that we believe the same thing is simply leaving out a lot of details.

[Marie Mazzante]

You alone? Every Sunday. Oh, man, I remember seeing that. Step three. Jesus died on the cross for sins, decree every week for us and for our salvation. He came down from heaven for our sake. He was crucified. And in the Eucharistic prayer, the priest says.

[Jimmy Hicks]

Okay, hold on. Before we get to the Eucharistic prayer, which is another failure to disclose what the Eucharist is about, she's saying that we confess that Jesus Christ forgives us of our sins. That is not inaccurate. But it's not total. It isn't everything that a Roman Catholic needs to do to have their sins forgiven. They must continue. To do what? Well, they must take the Eucharist. They must go to confession. They must do deeds of charity, of love. They must get last rites. In other words, they have to do stuff, too. She's leaving this out. And I wonder how many evangelicals are being persuaded by this woman, that Roman Catholic. I guess they believe the same thing we do. And they seem to be so much more serious. They seem to be so much more earnest. Maybe I'll swim across the Tiber and go back to Rome or join the Roman Catholic Church. Speaking of which, WNG.org an article titled Pilgrims of a Certain Age. It describes this trend of people, older people and younger people too, who are swimming across the Tiber to get to Rome or to the Anglican Communion or to Eastern Orthodoxy. Why? Because they're looking for something that isn't so silly. So much of evangelicalism. It just feels trite. What do you mean? A movie sermon series? There's the dim lights and the repetitious music. Really, this is Christianity. We'd like something a little bit more mature. And so this individual is writing about as a single woman, older single women, they're striking out in their 60s toward ancient spiritual destinations. The article said, we women of a certain age aren't leaving evangelical churches because we've abandoned faith in Christ or the doctrine of grace. Some of us have simply lost confidence in the late modern evangelical delivery system. After decades inside personality driven, sermon centered churches, we are looking for reverence for sacrament, creed and calendar, for theological continuity that stretches beyond Mr. Gutenberg's movable type to wax tablets, parchment and papyrus. In other words, they want to go all the way back, not just to the Protestant Reformation, but to the beginning. This migration, according to a Wheaton College professor back in 1985 who wrote a book titled Evangelicals on the Canterbury Betrayal, it was identifying. People want something that's just not so silly. And I can't help but wonder how many people would watch this woman and go, hey, I don't have to violate my evangelical conscience. I don't have to jettison faith alone and grace alone and Christ alone. Because Roman Catholics are just like us. No, no, they're not. Do we share some doctrines? Yes. But when you add anything to salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, then you have a different system. You have a Galatians system. You have a system where we would say that they would be anathema, just like they say about us. This woman, very clever. She's now talking about the Eucharistic prayer to prove. See, we believe in grace alone too.

[Marie Mazzante]

Father, you so love the world that in the fullness of time you sent your only son to be our Savior. In fulfillment of your will, he gave himself up to death, but by rising from the dead, he destroyed death and restored life.

[Jimmy Hicks]

Good. Yes, yes. What about that, Mary being the co redemptrix part? What about all the stuff that we have to do in addition to that. That's why this is clever and sneaky.

[Marie Mazzante]

And then the congregation responds, we proclaim your death, O Lord, and profess your resurrection until you come again. A lot of this is coming back to me now every week. So steps one, two and three, all there every Sunday. But your fourth step is the big one.

[Jimmy Hicks]

Personally accepting Jesus, no repenting and putting your trust in Jesus Christ.

[Marie Mazzante]

And that's actually where it gets really interesting. Have you ever thought about what happens right after Communion? What do you mean? The priest holds up the Eucharist and says, behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. Blessed are those called to the supper of the Lamb. And then every Catholic responds with my favorite Lord, I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

[Jimmy Hicks]

Sounds nice, doesn't it? She just left out some details that she believes that the elements transubstantiate, that the bread actually becomes the body, the wine becomes the blood, and it is necessary to consume that in order to have your sins forgiven. Because the priest has called down Jesus to re sacrifice him on the altar. So is what she is saying. Some of it is very fine and true. She's just not disclosing the whole truth and nothing but the truth. If you run into Marie Missante, please note, while she seems earnest and she's very, very clever, she's simply not telling the truth. This is Wretched radio,

And it is now time for your daily Fortis News Breaker production of Fortis Institute. The abortion lobby is writing big checks for November. Planned Parenthood's political arm will spend $2 million targeting nine House Republicans across six states, largely to block Congress from making its federal defunding permanent. The group formerly known as NARAL is adding $23.5 million to win over independents and soft Republicans insisting abortion is more popular. Popular than any politician. And While the lobby spins, 14 women harmed by abortion drugs sent a letter to the acting attorney general last week urging the Justice Department to settle Louisiana's lawsuit against the FDA and quit. Defending the Biden era rule that lets abortion pills shipped through the mail with no doctor visit, they're standing with the Louisiana woman whose boyfriend ordered the pills from a doctor in California for an abortion she says she never wanted. The administration says wait for a federal safety review, which won't wrap up until after the midterms. But the women say settle the case now and shut down the mail order pipeline north of the border. A 27 year old man who identifies as a woman has been arrested in Quebec accused of sexually assaulting children. He was hired to babysit and one victim was four years old. Police say the man spent more than four years building traffic trust with young mothers and abusing the children left in his care. Now watch how Canada reports it. The French language press and the police are calling him a woman. Canada's state broadcaster has done this for years, describing male rapists and a man who murdered his partner and their children as she when a newsroom can't tell you a criminal sex, it's not reporting anymore. It's protecting an ideology. And while Canadian journalists rewrite police reports, Australia Australia's public broadcaster has found the culprit behind child marriage in Bangladesh. Get ready for this because you didn't expect it. It's climate change. But there's only one problem. Child brides were the norm across that region for thousands of years before anyone drove an SUV. British census records from the 1880s put the average bride there at 13, and it took those much maligned Christian colonizers to pass the first minimum age age marriage laws in 1929. Girls aren't sold off because of the weather and where they're protected. It's because someone taught that children bear the image of God. Over in Rome, a group calling itself the Rainbow Christians movement marched in the city's Pride parade behind a rainbow painted cross they've named the Cross of the Covenant, insisting Catholic faith and LGBT identity belong together. You can paint across any color you want, but you don't get to repaint what it actually means. And that wraps up today's Fortis News Break. I'm Jimmy Hicks. If you want more, you can download Fortis or sign up to become a Fortis Insider for exclusive daily content. Both of those things can be [e-mail] and don't forget, you can subscribe to Fortis News on your favorite podcast app in order to get these updates daily. And until tomorrow, go serve your king.

[Todd Friel]

Books of the Bible the Book of Revelation describes visions given to the apostle John by Jesus Christ concerning the consummation of history. Its symbolic style makes Revelation a mystery to many, but you can understand much by asking, what are the setting and action? And who are the characters? When you wonder how it's all going to end, God has given Revelation just for you. This is Wretched Radio with Todd Fr.

[Jimmy Hicks]

Oh presbyterians, What is doing PC usa? This is Wretched Radio. Let's take a look at church news, shall we? This won't shock you. And this should be a, a warning, an encouragement, a reminder to you, Dear Bible, preach and Pastor, stay the course, stand firm, do not waffle play the man. When it comes to holding the line and having the church being regulated by the chief shepherd, Jesus Christ, we are under shepherds, we are not the chief shepherd. We do what we're told and what we're told to do is do. Worship decently and in order and in a fashion that represents the character of our God. Which I believe means a church service should be both transcendent and imminent. Not an easy balance to find. Transcendent because God is, He's high, he's holy, he's righteous, he's just. He is going to judge the world in righteousness. He has a mighty hand. In other words, he's big and scary. On the other hand, he's a father, he's near, he's closer than a brother. He wants us to cast our cares upon him because he what cares for us. And I think because we know that God is both transcendent and imminent, the church service should reflect both of those dimensions, if you will, of God. If a church service is nothing but imminent, I think that you are probably going to find yourself with a lot of licentious Christians. If those two words go together. If it is nothing but transcendent, it's going to be probably pretty dead and it's probably going to become a work righteous system. We've got to find the balance of both of those aspects of God so that we worship him reverentially and yet not as it's that he's distant and not hearing us. His ears attend to us, they attend to our prayers. His eyes are on his children. We need to have church services that represent both of those aspects of God. Otherwise I think you're probably headed for trouble. PC USA they're dropping membership a lot. This started back in 2000. They've been going wonky for so long. And population, I'm sorry, population, hell, let's call it population or church membership has been dropping since 2000. It's down 1.5 million members. It used to be 2.5. Now it's down to 1 million. They lost 27,000 this last year and they dropped 128 churches just went away. One hundred and twenty eight churches. So the good news is if you're out there and you're looking for a church, maybe go talk to that PC USA church. Hey, you're going to be in business for long. You might be able to get yourself a deal. The pca. This is an encouragement, Pastor. Don't go their route. Don't get soft, don't get squishy. Do not compromise. Do do, do not become seeker sensitive. Oh, that pernicious trend. How I wish it would go away. Learn a lesson from the Presbyterian Church usa. I never thought I would say that, but it's a lesson that can be learned because they're doing it so wrong and because of it they are losing members. What are they doing wrong? Well, for instance, how's about the PC USA declares support for body deforming trans surgeries for kids. Well, that's not good, is it? And what's happening because of it? People are leaving the church. Here's the vote. They just had their 227th General Assembly. It's a couple of weeks now. They voted 441 to 30 in favor of something called Gen 02 on access to health care. It describes so called gender affirming care as medically necessary and evidence based for the well being of many trans, transgender, non, binary and gender expansive people who experience symptoms. A feeling is a symptom of gender dysphoria or distress that result from having one's gender identity not match their sex assigned at birth. So in other words, the pcusa, they're science deniers. You're not assigned a gender, you are a gender. And we simply identify what it is based on initially on body parts. You could do a blood test, you'll see there's a little chromosomal difference. Not to mention, I think that there are other differences with emotions. We're just not made the same physically. Furthermore, the Bible is the one that determines really what genders are, what an expression of femininity is, what an expression of masculinity. Is the PC USA denying that? And because of it, they're dying. They're absolutely dying. They want transgender surgeries without age limit. These are radical people. The corresponding member with the Advocacy committee for LGBTQIA Equity who spoke in support of the measure, so this is a Presbyterian, presumably claimed that this is a life and death matter and went on to recount the long disproven claim that chopping off sex organs and other body parts can lower the suicide rates of people suffering from gender dysphoria. It is nothing but a lie. In fact, people become more suicidal when they go through these procedures. Studies have shown patients who have undergone gender affirmation surgery are associated with significantly higher risk of suicide, self harm and PTSD compared to general population control groups. They're just out of step with, well, frankly, everything. And they're dying. I'll be happy to visit that funeral. I'll be happy to attend that one. Because they should. They're no longer Christian. John Knox, what would he say to them? I hope he would say something that would make them cry, just like he did with Queen Mary. Let's go to United Methodist Church, Asbury Seminary not being treated very tolerantly, apparently. Asbury Seminary, they wanted to hold the line. Guess what the issue is? That's right. Human sexuality and marriage. And because they're holding the line, they got booted from the United Methodist Church denomination. They no longer are an approved school with United Methodism. Quote. This is from the. Here he is, the president of Asbury Theological Seminary. I got stuck for just a second. While we had hoped for a different outcome, our focus remains steadfast on our unchanging calling. The Senate's requirements, particularly those related to the UMC's 2024 Social Principles concerning human sexuality and marriage are not aligned with Asbury Theological Seminary's institutional ethos and the historic witness of the Christian faith. I thought progressives were tolerant, but they just booted out Asbury, which is at least holding the line on this. Let's check out Roman Catholicism, shall we? The New York Archdiocese proposed $800 million to settle all of the abuse cases. Roughly 1300 clergy sexual abuse claims have been brought against the Archbishop. The New York Diocese of the Roman Catholic Church and they're saying, will 800 million do? Yikes. If finalized, it would place New York just below the Archdiocese of Los Angeles, which agreed in 2024 to $880 million settlement covering more than 1,300 survivors and a previous settlement of 740 million in 2014. So another 1.5 billion Los Angeles alone. That's a problem. Do we see these types of things happening in evangelicalism? Yes, we do, but nowhere near the magnitude of the Roman Catholic church. The Boston Archdiocese 2003 agreed to pay 85 million to 500 victims. Now, these are the people that were willing to come out and admit I was abused inside of the Roman Catholic Church. When there's that much smoke, there's fire. There's a reason for it. It's a bad system. The Evangelical Presbyterian Church, which I've never heard. Jimmy, do you know what the EPC is? The Evangelical Presbyterian Church.

Never heard of it.

Yeah, me neither. 625 churches, 120,000 members. They claimed that they maintain a third way on non essentials, including women's ordination. Is Left up to individual presbyteries. Well, that's bad. They had a vote at their conference, the 46th General Assembly, 57 to 43%. If you have SSA, you can be ordained in the EPC. There's a group inside of the EPC that's saying, no, you can't. Which means there will probably be a split in that denomination, the epc, whenever. I honestly do. I understand the desire to make sure that we can still have unity when it comes to non essential doctrines. If we've got our cardinal doctrines square, that we can have fellowship with one another. I get that desire.

[Marie Mazzante]

But wow.

[Jimmy Hicks]

I got to tell you, I think it's the right understanding, but it sure is dangerous. How many times have we seen these organizations, denominations that say, we're gonna try to find the third way, we're gonna try to be kind of cool about these differences. And inevitably, what do they do? They veer to the left, they go into a dish and they crash and they burn. This is wretched radio.

Should Christians drink? What about tattoos? Is it okay to send your kids to public school? Or does homeschool make you. And don't even get started on worship styles. That's ended more friendships than Monopoly. Here's the thing. Christians love to argue about stuff the Bible doesn't actually command or forbid. And when we do, we fracture over things that shouldn't divide us. That's where Christian liberty comes in. It's a teaching series with Todd Friel, Phil Johnson, and Ty Blackburn, all walking you through one of the most neglected and most misused doctrines in all of scripture. And when you actually, actually understand Christian liberty, you stop majoring on minors. You learn to disagree without dividing. You grow in wisdom and maturity and have genuine love for other believers who see things a little bit differently than you do. Christian Liberty. It's streaming right now for free on Fortis. Just download the app, where you download apps on your smartphone, your smart TV, or just simply go to fortisplus.org

[Marie Mazzante]

Look,

[Jimmy Hicks]

I'm going to be straight with you. Every man knows what it's like to fight a battle no one else can see. You wake up. You're determined that today is going to be different. This time, you're going to be stronger than the temptation. But then evening comes and there you are again, right back where you started. You're making promises to yourself that you already know deep down that you're not going to keep tomorrow. Here's what no one wants to admit. You can't win this fight with willpower, trust, Me. If determination alone could break the chains of lust and sin, you would already be free. You've probably figured that out by now. The filters, the accountability apps, the promises to your wife or to yourself, they're just band aids on a wound that needs surgery. Real freedom, the kind that actually lasts. It only comes when Christ changes you from the inside out. Not just your habits, but your actual heart. That's what Todd Friel gets into very deeply with his resource Play the Man. It's available right now as an e book, audiobook and video series [e-mail] Trust the science. You've heard it a million times, usually right before someone uses it to shut a conversation down instead of opening one up. But science is a tool. It's not a judge. And like any tool, it depends on who's holding it and what they already believe. Two scientists can look at the exact same data and walk away with opposite conclusions because each one brought a different worldview to the table. Science also leans on a few things it can't prove that the universe stays orderly and that our minds can actually grasp truth. Both make the most sense of a rational God made it all. You take him out of the picture and you're left trusting that chaos somehow adds up. That's where in the beginning with Dr. Jason Lyle comes in. He's a PhD astrophysics. He'll teach you to read the science headlines without getting played. New episodes of in the Beginning are dropped every single Wednesday on every single podcast platform in existence [e-mail].

[Todd Friel]

Titles of Christ. In the Bible, Jesus is given many titles that teach us about who he is and what he is. Jesus is called the advocate. When we, as God's redeemed people, sin, Jesus is our advocate before the Father. It is on the basis of Christ's righteousness that we are saved, not our own works. This is Wretched Radio with Todd Friel.

[Jimmy Hicks]

Want to know what you get when two dogs breed? That's right, another dog.

[Dr. Jason Lyle]

And so the first question I want to ask is, do animals change at all? As animals give rise to the next generation, are their descendants identical to the parents? And of course, the answer is, well, no, they're not identical. Animals do change. And so dogs, for example, do dogs change? Well, yeah, they do. But what do they change into? Other dogs.

[Jimmy Hicks]

Bingo. This is Wretched radio. That is Dr. Jason Lyle. He's one of our Fortis fellows. That's his new podcast. It is actually episode five, titled in the Beginning. You can get that podcast wherever you do Your podcast and stuff or@the Fortis Plus.org app, which is always for everything, helping us to not feel the need to wedge more years into the book of Genesis creation account. We don't have to bow to evolution. Why? Because their claims are simply fallacious. They are simply not observable, repeatable. In other words, they're not really scientific. They're observations of history made with a worldview. Which is why they come up with such a completely different take on origins, because they import their worldview into what they believe to be the data from the past. We do have data from the past. That is undeniable. The question, of course, is, how do you interpret it? And those that want to deny the existence of God, they have created a mechanism. It wasn't Charles Darwin, he was merely the popularizer of it. That was the tool that has been used now since Charles Darwin to deny the biblical account that in the beginning God made the heavens and the earth. And one of their arguments is, well, look, look, dogs change. Yeah, they do. They change into another kind of dog, or it's a dog with a different kind of coat or different kind of coloring. It depends on how you breed them. But no matter what type of dogs you put together for breeding purposes, you know what, they breed dogs.

[Dr. Jason Lyle]

And so you can get different varieties of dogs by breeding them together and so on. That's how we have the different breeds that we have today. But they always remain dogs.

[Jimmy Hicks]

It is so simple, isn't it? And yet this is the type of stuff that is being foisted onto our kids to persuade them that evolution, it is the scientific idea. They would say it's a fact. It's not the scientific fact. That means you don't have to believe in God.

[Dr. Jason Lyle]

It's important to recognize that kind is not the same thing as species. There's some confusion on this. Species is a very modern classification. But we do believe that you can get different species from one kind. For example, there have been experiments where they've taken mosquitoes that have been separated from their parent population. And after many generations, their descendants are no longer able to interbreed with the descendants of the parent population. And so they're classified as a new species because they can't readily interbreed. But they're still mosquitoes. They always have been mosquitoes. And unfortunately, they always will be mosquitoes.

[Jimmy Hicks]

Not in the new Earth, Dr. Lyle.

[Dr. Jason Lyle]

No evolution there at all. It's just mosquitoes begetting mosquitoes. And so it is with dogs. You can get the different breeds of Dogs from just two dogs that we believe are on Noah's Ark. You can get all those different breeds. Yes, you can get different species, but they're still the same kind. Elephants, for example. We believe that the African elephant and the Indian elephant, although they are different species, they're the same kind. And we believe they're the same kind as some extinct varieties like mammoths, for example. Although those are classified as different species, they're still the same kind. God has built into organisms the ability to produce descendants that are similar to them but not identical. There is variation within a kind. That is what the Bible. And so that's what we as creation scientists believe.

[Jimmy Hicks]

Jimmy, did you see that buffalo video? I think it was taken up in Montana, something like that.

I don't think so.

Apparently a grandpa was walking with his grandson. They weren't nattering. They weren't bothering or pestering or trying to approach a buffalo that were just roaming around. And the buffalo attacked grandpa running as fast as he can, finds himself behind. He done got caught up to by the buffalo who used his head, tossed him 8ft in the air. And he wasn't a frail old, old man. He was like a pretty big dude, that buffalo, with just one big whoa. Up he went. Wow, eight feet in the air. I wonder if he broke one or both hips. That was scary business. Now, does a buffalo have any relatives, if you will? Well, sure. How's about bison? They're different kind, same species. In other words, that is not macroevolution.

[Dr. Jason Lyle]

I have to point out that sometimes evolutionists will misrepresent what creationists teach and say, oh, you know creationists, they believe that God created every species as we see them today. Well, that's not true. We don't believe that animals are identical to the way they were back at creation. For example, I don't believe that there. There were poodles in the Garden of Eden. Right.

[Jimmy Hicks]

Because it was perfect. And poodles, let's be honest, this is. I. I know that scientifically this might be a challenge, but the real. There had to have been a cat somewhere in the breeding line of poodles,

[Dr. Jason Lyle]

God called the world very good when it was first made. No, animals have changed a bit since creation, and we're going to see how that happens as we go along in this episode.

[Jimmy Hicks]

Jimmy, I saw a cat powel.

A cat towel.

We were in a restaurant where they sell towels. Somebody takes the time to come up with funny sayings and the hand towel that you would hang in your kitchen.

Oh, I see.

Yeah, yeah. So this one was if your cat could text you back, he wouldn't.

[Dr. Jason Lyle]

So the biblical teaching would be variation within a kind. Organisms have always remained the same kind, but you can get variations and even speciation. On the other hand, evolution, the evolutionists teach really that there's only one kind, because in the evolutionary view, everything is related. Everything is descended from a common ancestor that lived billions of years ago. And in fact, something like a bacterium, a single celled microbe, as it reproduced, eventually gave rise to everything else.

[Jimmy Hicks]

I think that I said that in the beginning, and yet it sounds so much smarter coming from Dr. Jason Lyle, because, well, he is so much smarter in the beginning. It's the name of the podcast. You can find it at fortisplus.org, you can find it wherever you do your podcasting duties. Please consider getting it and please consider listening to this with your kids and

[Dr. Jason Lyle]

to see which of these views is most consistent with the study of genetics. We need to know a little bit about DNA. This is a very long molecule that occurs in the cells of our body, in the nucleus of those cells and DNA. You've probably seen illustrations. It looks a bit like a twisted ladder. It's a double helix. And on the rungs of this ladder are chemicals called nucleotide base pairs. There are four different nucleotides that are used in living organisms, and they are abbreviated by the first letter of their C, G, A and T. And on a given strand of DNA, you don't know which letter is going to come next. Will it be a C? Will it be an A? Will it be a G? Will it be a T? You can't tell. But the way those letters are arranged spells out the information to make a living organism. It's really remarkable. In the same way that I could spell help using Morse code, using dots and dashes, in much of the same way I could spell out, I could write a book in DNA. It's just I'm using a four letter Alphabet instead of a 26 letter Alphabet or a two letter Alphabet. In the case of Morse code, the way it works is that groups of three of these nucleotide base pairs form kind of like a word which we call a codon, and it represents something else. It'll either represent an amino acid or it'll represent a start or stop in a sequence. And then these messages are copied and read by organelles called ribosomes, which read these messages and translate them into proteins. And then the proteins are what make up you. They're the basic structure of your body and how it works, the machinery that makes your body work, it's really remarkable. And the reason that you're a person and not a cabbage is because you have instructions to make a person, whereas a cabbage has DNA instructions to make a cabbage. And believe me, you got the long end of the stick on that one.

[Jimmy Hicks]

Some might argue. But when you hear that, all that it takes to make you, how can you not conclude you were made? The formation of the information, the interpretation of the information, the application of the information. We don't believe that anything is as random as evolution purports. We are. It demands, you know, a designer.

[Dr. Jason Lyle]

Now, what I find interesting is that if the parents have, let's say mom has blood type A, and let's say her specific genetic code is O and A, so that's what we call the heterozygous combination. And dad has blood type B, and let's say it's the heterozygous B, so he has O and B. Then the children could have any possible blood type. They could get the A from mom, they could get the O from dad, and their blood type would be A. They could get the A from mom, the B from dad. Their blood type would be ab. They could get the O from mom, and the O from dad. Their blood type is O. And so it's possible for them to have a blood type that neither parent has. And so you might notice that some of your traits look a little like dad, some of your traits look a little like mom, and you have some other traits, and you're like, where did that come from? Well, it still came from your parents. It's just you have a unique combination. This is an ingenious way of encoding a tremendous amount of variety into just two human beings. In fact, you take any two people, a married couple, the number of unique children they could have before, statistically, they'd end up with a duplicate DNA is greater than the number of atoms in the universe. That's the amount of variety that God has built into human beings. All of that built into Adam and Eve.

[Jimmy Hicks]

Intrigue. There's more where that came from in the beginning. Dr. Jason [e-mail] or wherever you want to download in the beginning. You do not want to miss an episode. Sorry for the cliffhanger. Until tomorrow. Go serve your king.