Do Mormons Worship the Same God? + Are People Basically Good?

Summary

Wretched Radio with Todd Friel – Episode Summary

Episode Title: Do Mormons Worship the Same God? + Are People Basically Good?
Date: July 1, 2026
Host: Todd Friel (Fortis Institute)

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Todd Friel takes listeners through a series of street interviews at Georgia Tech, engaging students in deep conversations on theology, morality, human nature, and differing perspectives within the Christian tradition. Key discussions center around whether Mormons and Christians worship the same God, the nature of salvation and grace, and whether people are fundamentally good or bad. Todd uses these spontaneous encounters as platforms for gospel-centered evangelism, challenging students’ assumptions and presenting classical evangelical doctrine in contrast to alternative views.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. On Culture and Identity (00:08–01:44)

• Todd opens by commenting on shifting cultural standards around gender and identity and uses a humorous exchange about a campus "humans vs zombies" game to set a light but probing tone.

2. Do Mormons Worship the Same God as Christians? (01:45–11:24)

Interview with a Mormon Student

• The Nature of God and Jesus
  • Todd asks the student about his conception of God (“Heavenly Father”). The student affirms God’s always existed, and believes Jesus always existed as well (05:21).
  • Todd: “Do you believe that Jesus is always existing?”
    Mormon Student: “Yeah.” ([05:22])
  • Todd presses on classical Mormon teaching that God was once a man and that humans can become like God. The student references the well-known phrase: “As God once was, man may become.” ([06:18])
• Grace and Works
  • The Mormon student asserts, “There’s nothing I can do in this life that will save me…Jesus does the rest, and that’s exactly it. But the Scriptures are very clear as well, they say, ‘Faith without works is dead.’” ([08:20])
  • Todd clarifies the evangelical perspective: “I think everything that I do is bad. And Jesus has done it all, not the rest. He’s done it all.” ([08:41])
• Consequences of Belief
  • Todd draws a sharp distinction: If evangelicals are wrong, no serious risk is posed. But if Mormons misunderstand Jesus, Todd warns, they are “in big trouble”—asserting that believing in a "wrong God" leads to hell ([09:34], [10:05]).
  • Todd: “If you die and you’re wrong and your understanding of Jesus is wrong... you would be in big trouble.” ([09:34])
• Mormon Response
  • The student rejects eternal damnation for most people, holding that “God does not want to damn most of his children and that he will make a way that most of his children will be able to come back to him.” ([10:46])
  • Todd cites Matthew 7:13 (“Broad is the road that leads to destruction...”) to challenge the inclusivist view ([10:54]).

3. Are People Basically Good? (15:02–23:17)

Interview with a Freshman Psychology Student

• When asked, the student affirms: “I think [people are] good” ([15:40]) and sees himself as good: “I’m really nice.” ([16:01])
• Todd moves the standard to perfection and walks the student through the Ten Commandments—lying, coveting, stealing, impure thoughts—all of which the student admits to, justifying some as “depends on the situation” or “doesn’t hurt anyone.”
• Todd then gives a clear gospel presentation, explaining substitutionary atonement:
  • “Jesus died because you and I are lawbreakers... he sent his Son Jesus to take the punishment that you and I [deserve] so that his goodness could be credited to our account and your badness could be put on him.” ([20:44])
• The student is encouraged to test if this is true and is told about repentance and faith:
  • “If you do that, all of your sins, past, present and future [are] completely forgiven. You’ll be adopted as God’s child and you’ll receive everlasting life because of what Jesus did.” ([22:18])
• Notable: Todd contrasts Christianity with all other religions, emphasizing grace alone for salvation ([22:45]).

4. God, Judgment, and Logic (29:31–40:16)

Interview with a Material Science Student

• The conversation starts with a discussion of whether something can come from nothing. Todd argues the logic of a creator:
  • “If we can’t create something out of nothing, then how did something come out of nothing?... Wouldn’t it be more logical and consistent to say somebody created us?” ([30:39])
• The student concedes that something (or someone) must be eternal.
• Todd ties moral instincts (justice) to the idea of a creator and discusses God’s justice:
  • “If God is just. How do you think you would fare if he judged you for the behavior that you’ve committed on this earth?” ([33:44])
• The student admits to lying and lust but is unsure how God would judge him (“I have no idea.”).
• Todd explains substitutionary atonement again and appeals to the student’s sense of gratitude and logic, but the student humorously quips he'd prefer a sandwich right now ([40:00]).

5. Can You Be “Good Enough” for Heaven? (44:06–54:47)

Interview with a Christian Student/Listener

• The student expresses a postmodern outlook, doubting we can know absolute truth and holding a belief that non-Christians can go to heaven if they do good.
• Todd challenges relativism:
  • “So you believe Jesus is God?... I’m a little confused. You said before we don’t know what our purpose is. Isn’t the purpose of a Christian to glorify God and enjoy him forever?” ([46:13], [46:19])
• The student sees striving for goodness as life’s purpose, rather than glorifying God.
• Todd pushes the legal analogy again—using a courtroom scene to show that “trying” is insufficient for justice and that one sin makes someone fundamentally in need of mercy rather than deserving of reward ([48:33], [49:12]).
• Todd explains the seriousness of sin from God’s perspective, not humanity’s, and again notes the need for mercy provided in Christ’s atonement:
  • “God’s perspective is way above ours... he sees lying and snow dealing as huge atrocities because of his perspective.” ([49:33])
• The student receives a lengthy final gospel appeal:
  • “He loves you so much he died for you so that you could be forgiven. It’s an act of kindness... You should repent and trust Jesus not to escape hell, but because he’s been so kind to rescue you from hell.... That’s your purpose in life.” ([53:55]–[54:47])

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• Mormon Student (On different conceptions of God):
  “Whether or not we understand him perfectly and there’s lots of different religions that understand him differently, that’s fine. But I believe there’s one truth.” ([04:05])
• Todd Friel:
  “If I understand Jesus differently enough, there must be a line someplace. We’ve identified him being a clown... as over that line.” ([04:51])
• Todd Friel (On grace):
  “I think everything that I do is bad. And Jesus has done it all, not the rest. He’s done it all.” ([08:41])
• Todd Friel (On hell and false beliefs):
  “If you die and you’re wrong… you would be in big trouble.” ([09:34])
• Freshman Student (On morality):
  “I think I’m good. I’m really nice.” ([16:01])
• Material Science Student (On logic and creation):
  “Not that we were created, but that there was something that existed indefinitely.” ([31:45])
• Material Science Student (On atonement):
  “I’m hungry right now, so if someone gave me food, I would probably be pretty happy.” ([40:00])
• Christian Student/Listener (On salvation):
  “I don’t think you have to be a Christian to get to heaven. I think if you do what you can to help others, I mean, not everyone’s going to think what’s right is the same thing.” ([47:24])
• Todd Friel (On God’s justice):
  “God gets turned off at things that we don’t think are very bad because he has a higher perspective than we do.” ([49:33])
• Todd Friel (Final appeal):
  “He loves you so much he died for you so that you could be forgiven. It’s an act of kindness... The question is, why are you here? To glorify God.” ([53:55]–[54:47])

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Important Timestamps

• [01:45–11:24] – Todd’s deep dialogue with a Mormon student on the nature of God and Jesus, salvation, and the divergence between Mormon and evangelical beliefs.
• [15:02–23:17] – Freshman psychology student discusses human nature (“Are people basically good?”), the Ten Commandments, and Todd’s gospel presentation.
• [29:31–40:16] – Material science student wrestles with creation, logic, and the fairness of God’s judgment; exchanges on the atonement.
• [44:06–54:47] – Conversation with a Christian student who holds a relativistic worldview; Todd unpacks the biblical narrative of sin, justice, and redemption.
• [53:55–54:47] – Todd’s final summary and appeal.

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Episode Tone and Approach

• Engaging and Confrontational: Todd Friel employs Socratic questioning, humor, and analogy to challenge students’ views.
• Evangelistic: Each encounter is used to present the distinctives of Christian doctrine, especially the need for grace through Jesus alone.
• Respectful yet Direct: Todd is careful to clarify differences without personal attack, even as he presses his points forcefully.

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Summary for New Listeners

This episode is a front-row seat to live, unscripted theological discussion on a university campus. Todd Friel pulls apart assumptions on the nature of God (especially between evangelicals and Mormons), the depth of human sin, what qualifies as “good,” and what the Christian gospel truly claims. The main takeaway: According to Friel, understanding God and salvation accurately is critical, and the uniquely Christian hope is forgiveness and eternal life by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone—not by works nor by sincerity.

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Transcript

[Todd Friel]

Wretched radio begins in 3, 2, 1.

Some councils are auditing schools and urging a ban on the terms boy and girl. For those who are in an open or polyamorous relationship, your relationships are holy. A gay black woman's victim status is

[Georgia Tech Student (Nom Nom)]

less than that of a black trans woman who ranks below a black Muslim trans woman.

[Jimmy Hicks]

We don't want to just win the argument about sexuality. We want to use this as a gospel opportunity.

[Todd Friel]

It's time for Wretched Radio with Todd Friel.

I'm a Georgia Tech. Hey, guys, I gotta ask. There's a bunch of people walking around with yellow headbands.

[Interviewer/Host]

What?

[Guest or Co-host]

Why?

[Georgia Tech Student (Nom Nom)]

Humans versus zombies.

[Interviewer/Host]

Alrighty.

[Todd Friel]

You wanna explain that to me?

[Georgia Tech Student (Nom Nom)]

I would have to say the best game ever. We are trying to make this a Georgia Tech tradition, something that freshmen, even graduate students, can come and enjoy.

[Todd Friel]

Dude, I sure hope you're in theater.

[Georgia Tech Student (Nom Nom)]

No, but I have been said I should be an actor.

[Todd Friel]

All right. So how do I become a zombie? Why would I choose zombie over human?

[Georgia Tech Student (Nom Nom)]

Because it's a lot more fun and you don't have to be very paranoid as you walk around.

[Todd Friel]

G. You don't choose just like a tackle champion.

[Georgia Tech Student (Nom Nom)]

This is true.

[Todd Friel]

Okay, so do I get initiated into the zombie club?

[Georgia Tech Student (Nom Nom)]

Initiation would probably be making the oath of the Om nom nom.

[Todd Friel]

Give me the oath of the Om nom nom. He's making things up. Is he making it up?

[Christian Student/Listener]

He's making it up.

[Todd Friel]

Well, you're a good maker upper. Okay, tell me, how do I become a part of the zombie club?

[Georgia Tech Student (Nom Nom)]

Well, you just pretty much got to get tagged and devote your life to eating all humans possible.

[Interviewer/Host]

I see.

[Todd Friel]

All right, gentlemen, appreciate it very much. Zombie on.

[Georgia Tech Student (Nom Nom)]

Thank you.

[Interviewer/Host]

Goodbye.

[Georgia Tech Student (Nom Nom)]

I'm Nom Nom.

[Todd Friel]

I don't know if I'd. I'd be swearing in zombie. I don't want to necessarily do that. There's a dude eating a sandwich.

[Interviewer/Host]

Let's give it a go, shall we, young man? Keep eating. Don't stop. Keep walking.

[Todd Friel]

Can I. Ooh, dude. Lots of peanut butter on that sandwich.

[Mormon Student]

That's good.

[Interviewer/Host]

Rock on.

[Todd Friel]

Can I talk to you on the

[Interviewer/Host]

radio while you're eating?

[Mormon Student]

Sure.

[Georgia Tech Student (Nom Nom)]

All right.

[Todd Friel]

How much protein is in peanut butter?

[Mormon Student]

You want, tablespoons or grams?

[Todd Friel]

Do you know it?

[Mormon Student]

No idea.

[Interviewer/Host]

So why'd you ask?

[Todd Friel]

You're pulling my leg.

[Mormon Student]

I could make a guess in something.

[Todd Friel]

I'm gonna ask you a philosophical question. Maybe you'd considered a religious question. You ready?

[Mormon Student]

Sure. Can I ask what radio?

[Interviewer/Host]

Yes.

[Todd Friel]

Wretched radio in my shirt. We're so Big. We've even got shirts.

[Mormon Student]

Awesome.

[Todd Friel]

Because nobody else could make shirts like this.

[Mormon Student]

Is it like a talk radio?

[Todd Friel]

Yes, sir, it is.

[Interviewer/Host]

Nope, talk.

[Mormon Student]

What do you guys talk about?

[Todd Friel]

Usually this stuff.

[Mormon Student]

Okay, here it is.

[Todd Friel]

You ready? You can ask God one question.

[Interviewer/Host]

What is it?

[Mormon Student]

When is it over so all these people can stop suffering? Because I believe in God.

[Todd Friel]

Suffering's a tough one.

[Mormon Student]

And I think there's a lot of people, good people that are suffering a lot because there's a lot of bad people. God lets bad people make their choices. And so that's part of life. That's part of us having to live here. But I would like to know when they get to stop suffering.

[Todd Friel]

Okay, because you don't like suffering. You know, do you think that anybody deserves suffering?

[Mormon Student]

No, I think lots of people deserve learning. And what I mean by that is lots of people do bad things because they obviously don't understand something about life or about. I don't know.

[Todd Friel]

Who's your God?

[Mormon Student]

My father. I call him Heavenly Father.

[Material Science Student]

Okay.

[Todd Friel]

Is he the only God?

[Mormon Student]

Yeah.

[Todd Friel]

So you are a Christian?

[Mormon Student]

I am a Christian.

[Todd Friel]

All right.

[Mormon Student]

I'm a Mormon, if you must know.

[Todd Friel]

I guessed that when you said Father God. Because that's Mormon lingo, correct?

[Mormon Student]

Oh, I don't know. I think lots of the Catholic Church calls him to the Father. I mean, the scriptures.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah, no, no, no, you're right.

[Todd Friel]

But like that, that's kind of. I'm an evangelical and we have our. We've got our own little lingo.

[Mormon Student]

Sure, it's a little. I mean, the way we talk about. It's different. I think it's the same person, but sure.

[Todd Friel]

So do you think that Christians and Mormons believe in the same God?

[Mormon Student]

For sure. I think there's only God.

[Todd Friel]

Okay, so it's the same one. How different would my understanding of God need to be from yours for us to be believing in different gods?

[Mormon Student]

How different would it need to be?

[Todd Friel]

Yeah. Okay, let's say that I believe that God is a big nosed clown.

[Mormon Student]

So here's the question though. You're saying that then there's. There's different gods. Your point is? My point is there is only one.

[Todd Friel]

Okay.

[Mormon Student]

So whether or not we understand him perfectly and there's lots of different religions that understand him differently, that's fine. But I believe there's one truth.

[Todd Friel]

I agree.

[Mormon Student]

Whether or not I'm right, I don't know. You know? Well, I have my belief.

[Todd Friel]

Try this, I'll qualify.

[Guest or Co-host]

You are correct.

[Todd Friel]

You tag me and that's good. Okay, let's Say that I believe Jesus was. I call my God Jesus, but I really think that he appears as Bozo the Clown on a TV show in Chicago. Would I be wrong in my understanding of Jesus?

[Mormon Student]

I would think so. And the reason why is because I don't think that matches scripturally what he's done throughout all time in history.

[Todd Friel]

Okay, so if I believe in Jesus a different way than you, one of us would be wrong, Correct?

[Mormon Student]

Well, maybe both of us.

[Material Science Student]

Right.

[Mormon Student]

I mean, that's. Maybe neither of us are understanding completely

[Todd Friel]

what we're supposed to do. That would be a possibility. Okay, so with that, if I understand Jesus differently enough, there must be a line someplace. We've identified him being a clown. Putting on a TV show in Chicago is over that line. How is about the line of eternality, the always existence of Jesus? Would that be a big enough distinction between the two of us for one of us to be sure.

[Interviewer/Host]

Wrong?

[Mormon Student]

That's an important principle. That he's always existed.

[Georgia Tech Student (Nom Nom)]

Yeah.

[Todd Friel]

Do you believe that Jesus is always existing?

[Mormon Student]

Yeah.

[Todd Friel]

That's not Mormon doctrine.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yes, it is.

[Todd Friel]

Jesus is created from the Father.

[Mormon Student]

No, we believe Jesus always existed.

[Narrator/Promoter]

Always positive.

[Mormon Student]

We believe that God has always been. And we believe that Jesus Christ his Son, because that's how scriptures talk about him as his son.

[Todd Friel]

Do you believe that God was always God?

[Mormon Student]

I believe that God was always my Father.

[Interviewer/Host]

No.

[Todd Friel]

Was he always God?

[Mormon Student]

What do you mean by God? Can you define God for me?

[Todd Friel]

Sure. The entity that we're talking about.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah.

[Mormon Student]

I believe he's always, always been who he was, who he is, has not changed ever.

[Todd Friel]

So the Mormon statement. Help me out then, because this is different. The Mormon statement that says as Father now is we too can be. Indicates that he wasn't always God. He had to attain God's status. And now he's created you, and you too can create. You can attain Godlike status.

[Mormon Student]

So what I do believe is that we can become like our Father. Yes. And I know. I know the statement that you can

[Todd Friel]

become a God too.

[Mormon Student]

I know the statement you're talking about in terms of. In terms of the fact that as God once was, man may become. I know the quote very well. Do I understand everything about what God was or where he came from? No, I don't think anybody does, actually. I don't think anybody can tell me, even if you believe he's existed from eternity, what he's been doing for eternity. I don't think anybody can. If I can finish, sir, I would say though that I really believe that it makes no sense For a father, a loving father, to send his children to Earth for no reason. I believe he sent us here for a schooling, to teach us, to help us learn and grow and to hopefully one day help us become like him so that. That he can give us. And you talked about becoming gods. Do I believe that one day we'll be able to create as he creates if we do what we're supposed to here on Earth and learn what we're supposed to?

[Freshman Student]

I do.

[Mormon Student]

I really believe that.

[Todd Friel]

So you know, because you know what you're talking about, that I, as an evangelical, believe something different than you?

Sure.

[Mormon Student]

Yeah.

[Todd Friel]

I know that you think I'm wrong.

[Mormon Student]

Wrong's a hard statement. I think we have different opinions.

[Todd Friel]

You know, dude, I won't be.

[Mormon Student]

No. So here's the thing. I've prayed about it, and I felt like the Holy Spirit has come into my heart and told me that these things are true. I can't tell you that. That you're a liar. I don't believe that. I believe that you believe what you're doing.

[Todd Friel]

But do you believe I'm wrong? You must. Otherwise you believe what I believe or

[Mormon Student]

I don't know what you believe. Right. There's two options. Partially. Maybe I don't understand.

[Todd Friel]

Here's what I believe.

[Interviewer/Host]

Sure.

[Todd Friel]

I believe that Jesus was always the Son. God is a trinitarian God. Father, Son and Holy Spirit always existed. Always one God. Three distinct persons. Father, Son and Holy Spirit. All equally God. Same level, different roles, but same God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Okay. Jesus Christ came to this earth not to make it possible for us to get to heaven, but to secure Heaven for us by dying on a cross. And if we'll repent and put our trust in him, he will forgive us completely. Ephesians 2:8, 9. By grace we are saved through faith and that not of ourselves. It's the gift of God, not of works, so that nobody can boast.

[Mormon Student]

Sure, sure. But you know, the interesting thing is, I think this is the big difference. And I know this difference is that we believe in grace. I believe that there's nothing I can do in this life that will save me. Nothing in the. I mean, it's like a little kid who can put together a few cents to buy a bike. Jesus does the rest, and that's exactly it. But the Scriptures are very clear as well, that they say.

[Todd Friel]

Hold on one second. I want to make just one point.

[Mormon Student]

Faith without works is dead.

[Interviewer/Host]

Okay, Right.

[Todd Friel]

But I don't believe that same thing. I think everything that I do is bad. And Jesus has done it all, not the rest. He's done it all. Sure. Okay. And we have a different understanding about Jesus. So one of us is wrong.

[Mormon Student]

Yeah, I think you're right.

[Todd Friel]

Now, if I'm wrong about this, I don't beat my children, I take care of my family and I pay my taxes.

[Material Science Student]

I agree.

[Todd Friel]

If I died and I'm wrong, I've done my best and Jesus will do the rest. I'm in pretty good shape. I don't know if I'll go to celestial, telestial or terrestrial, but I'll be in pretty good shape. Okay. If you die and you're wrong and your understanding of Jesus is wrong, and you have been trying to contribute to salvation, or your understanding of Jesus is different than the one that I believe the Bible presents because you have a wrong understanding, you would be in big trouble.

[Freshman Student]

Really?

[Interviewer/Host]

You would go to hell because you've

[Todd Friel]

been believing in the wrong God.

[Mormon Student]

I'm sorry, I don't believe that.

[Todd Friel]

Well, you should read First John.

[Mormon Student]

Can you explain why?

[Todd Friel]

I actually know why you should read First John and Second John?

[Mormon Student]

No, I don't agree.

[Todd Friel]

Well, I know you don't, but here's what I'm trying to present.

[Mormon Student]

You know why, sir?

[Todd Friel]

Well, I'm trying to position it this way, okay? If Jesus is very clear on how he wants to be understood, not as a created being in any way, shape or form, and then it's complete forgiveness

[Mormon Student]

of sins, I agree that he wants to be understood. So go ahead.

[Todd Friel]

Rightly. Rightly. And if you believe in the wrong type of Christ or the wrong Christ, First John, two and Two John, makes it clear you don't have the Father, you don't have forgiveness. If I'm wrong, I'm okay. According to your beliefs. If you're wrong. According to my beliefs, you have been worshiping a false God.

[Mormon Student]

So for the vast majority of humanity, which would you want it to be? Do you want to damn everybody? Is that what you're saying?

[Todd Friel]

It's not what I want.

[Interviewer/Host]

It's what the Bible says.

[Mormon Student]

I don't agree. I believe. No, no. Let me tell you why I believe.

[Todd Friel]

Let me take a break. We'll come back. Fair enough.

[Interviewer/Host]

How this works.

[Mormon Student]

Well, I've got to go, but I won't say that. But I believe God loves us and that the damning on his children is not what God is about.

[Todd Friel]

So nobody goes to hell?

[Mormon Student]

No, I don't believe that. But I believe that God does not want to damn most of his children and that he will make a way that most of his children will be able to come back to him.

[Todd Friel]

So when Jesus said broad is the road that leads to destruction, that leads to life, and few find it, what was he talking about?

[Mormon Student]

He's talking about eternal life, which is what we talked about earlier, returning to God's presence. But that doesn't mean that he hasn't. He also says, in my father's house, there are many mansions.

[Todd Friel]

Okay, so? So bottom line, if I'm wrong, I'm okay. If you're wrong, big trouble. Fair enough.

[Mormon Student]

If you think so.

[Interviewer/Host]

All right.

[Mormon Student]

I don't believe that's what those scriptures are saying.

[Todd Friel]

I appreciate the chat. Goodbye, my Mormon friend.

[Interviewer/Host]

Goodbye.

[Todd Friel]

We'll continue on Witness Wednesday on Wretched Radio.

[Narrator/Promoter]

Have you ever wanted to take a tour of Europe, but you couldn't swing the airfare? Good news, Todd Friel's already gone for you. Our resource on the Shoulders of takes you across six countries to meet your Christian ancestors, the reformers, the men who were strangled, quartered, and burned alive so you could hold a Bible in your own language and understand the Gospel of grace. You'll see the stake where Jan Hus was burned to death, the prison where William Tyndale translated scripture, the very courtroom where John Wycliffe was called monstrously wicked. You'll visit Martin Luther's home, the field where George Whitefield preached to 30,000 people without a microphone, and the outdoor pulpit of the thundering Scot himself, John Knox. People were too good for this world, and their lives will challenge you to be bolder than ever before on the shoulders of giants. It is streaming for free right now on Fortis. Download the app, where you download apps on your smartphone, on your smart TV, or simply visit fortis.org Is it possible

[Guest or Co-host]

a Christian university can actually be ranked high when it comes to preparing students for the real world? The hat tip to Masters University. You want to send your kids someplace where they actually still teach the Bible. Not just based on a document that they may be having a file cabinet someplace, but they actually use the Bible there. The education at the Master's university, not only biblical, but oh so practical courses, diplomas, degrees. They can be achieved online or of course, on their beautiful campus in Southern California. Would you like to learn more about the Master's University to prepare you or your child for the future? I encourage you to visit Masters Edu Wretched. Masters Edu Wretched.

[Narrator/Promoter]

You know, we've raised a generation of kids who can sing every word about Jesus, but they still can't say why the Bible is true. True. And the world earned that because they've spent years teaching our children that truth bends and that science outgrew God. And the reasons are there. Logic, morality, the very laws that make science work. And every single one of them points back to a creator. And when you give kids that, faith stops being something they hope is true and becomes something they know is true. And it also spreads because they share it clearer with everyone around them.

[Material Science Student]

Them.

[Narrator/Promoter]

That's exactly what the series Irrefutable Proof of creation with Dr. Jason Lyle was built for. It's a biblical formation for a generation that needs answers. They need real ground to stand on, not just a good feeling. And that's what Dr. Lyle is doing. New episodes of Irrefutable Proof of Creation streaming right now and dropping weekly on Fortis Plus. You can download the app on your smartphone, your smart TV, or simply go to fortisplus.org.

[Todd Friel]

Books of the Bible. God called the prophet Jonah to preach repentance in Nineveh. Jonah fled, but he could not outrun God. He was cast into the sea and swallowed by a great fish. Jonah repented and God spared him. Jonah then preached in Nineveh and they repented. God is compassionate and merciful, and he is calling men from all nations to repentance. This is Wretched Radio with Todd Friel.

Terrific.

[Interviewer/Host]

What field of psychology?

[Freshman Student]

I'm just a freshman, so I'm not too specific yet.

[Todd Friel]

Do you have a certain school that

[Interviewer/Host]

you think is best, a certain way to approach analyzing the human mind that is the most beneficial?

[Freshman Student]

I really just started. I don't know yet.

[Interviewer/Host]

How come you chose that field?

[Freshman Student]

I just find it interesting and I don't like anything else.

[Mormon Student]

So that's it.

[Interviewer/Host]

So what, what was interesting about it? What do you, what do you dig about getting into the human brain?

[Todd Friel]

Yeah, you like that sounds fun. Do you think that human beings are

[Interviewer/Host]

basically good or basically bad?

[Freshman Student]

I think good.

[Interviewer/Host]

Do you think so?

[Freshman Student]

I don't have a lot of evidence to back that up.

[Interviewer/Host]

These people around here are being pretty. How's that?

[Freshman Student]

Yeah, that's good evidence, I guess.

[Interviewer/Host]

On the other hand, if you watch the 10 o' clock news, there's a lot of bad stuff going on.

[Freshman Student]

That's true.

[Todd Friel]

Do you think intrinsically you are good or bad?

[Freshman Student]

Oh, I think I'm good.

[Todd Friel]

You think you're good?

[Freshman Student]

I'm really nice.

[Interviewer/Host]

You're a nice guy. Well, you seem like a kind of a soft spoken, nice fellow.

[Todd Friel]

All right.

[Interviewer/Host]

Do you think though, let's say that

[Todd Friel]

the standard for good is perfection.

[Interviewer/Host]

Would you be a good person then?

[Freshman Student]

Well, no, no, because I make mistakes. I do things that probably aren't the moral best.

[Interviewer/Host]

The moral best. What do you think the moral best is?

[Freshman Student]

That's a vague question.

[Material Science Student]

It depends on the situation.

[Interviewer/Host]

How's about the Ten Commandments? Would that be a good standard?

[Freshman Student]

Maybe. I don't really know the Ten Commandments very well.

[Interviewer/Host]

Thou shalt not lie.

[Todd Friel]

That's a good one.

[Interviewer/Host]

Have you ever told lies?

[Freshman Student]

Yeah, and I think it's okay sometimes.

[Todd Friel]

Sometimes.

[Freshman Student]

And I don't think it's bad if you covet stuff sometimes. I mean, it's hard to not covet stuff.

[Interviewer/Host]

Well, that's an interesting thought, but what if God exists and he's provided everything? Like for instance, you're wearing a jacket. What kind of jacket are you wearing? What is that? It's a Columbia.

[Freshman Student]

I can like detach it and if

[Interviewer/Host]

it comes, it's a good jacket. It's really okay.

[Mormon Student]

But.

[Interviewer/Host]

So let's say then you look at my jacket and you covet my jacket. Wouldn't that be in a way saying to the God who provided your jacket, I don't think you're a very good provider.

[Freshman Student]

I guess so.

[Interviewer/Host]

Okay. What about stealing? That's another one of the Commandments.

[Freshman Student]

Yeah. I don't know. I just think it depends on the situation. Like if you're really poor, some other guy's really rich.

[Interviewer/Host]

Have you ever stolen anything ever?

[Freshman Student]

Well, when I was 2, I thought these balloons were free, so I took one.

[Interviewer/Host]

Okay, but I don't have that.

[Todd Friel]

Two year old balloons for free, like

[Interviewer/Host]

downloading music or something from work or

[Todd Friel]

something from your parents.

[Freshman Student]

Well, sometimes when a music album is coming out and it's leaked early on the Internet, I get it, but then I buy it in real life to make up for it. I'm just kind of like getting it in advance.

[Interviewer/Host]

Okay, It's a technicality. Okay.

[Todd Friel]

A little more.

[Interviewer/Host]

A little more tricky and you might not be able to wiggle away from this one. What about purity of thought? You know, sexual thoughts, desires. Looking at women. Do you ever find yourself having sexual thoughts that are impure?

[Freshman Student]

I guess so, but I don't think it matters.

[Interviewer/Host]

Oh, really?

[Freshman Student]

Not my fault.

[Interviewer/Host]

Not your fault? Whose fault is it?

[Freshman Student]

I mean, it doesn't hurt anyone's.

[Interviewer/Host]

Well, that's possible. However. Do you have a sister by any chance? Yeah. How would you feel about some guy having dirty thoughts about your sister? You'd probably think the guy wasn't an honorable fellow. Right?

[Freshman Student]

Yeah, that wouldn't be the best.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah. Wouldn't be the best. And besides, if God exists, wouldn't it be true that if he doesn't think it's best, then it would be wrong and a very bad thing? Do you believe in God?

[Freshman Student]

I go back and forth, back and forth.

[Interviewer/Host]

Were you raised in a religious home?

[Freshman Student]

My parents are Catholic. They took me to church when I was little. Once I got older, they decided to let me make my own decisions.

[Interviewer/Host]

Kind of abandoned it.

[Todd Friel]

You've decided it's not true?

[Freshman Student]

No, I haven't made any hard decisions yet. I'm just kind of thinking about it.

[Interviewer/Host]

Good for you. How old are you?

[Freshman Student]

19.

[Interviewer/Host]

19 years old. It's good to figure it out when you get, you know, you become a man and start thinking about things for yourself and not just what your parents believe. That's good. Do you know what Christianity is about? Do you know what the basic teaching of Christianity is?

[Freshman Student]

Well, I guess it differs from Judaism in that it says that Jesus died for us and, like, we should be happy about that.

[Interviewer/Host]

Why did Jesus die for us? What does the Bible teach about that?

[Freshman Student]

Oh, I don't know. Probably should.

[Interviewer/Host]

It's a big question. I mean, if it's the event that really changed time because we went from B.C. to A.D. it was a pretty big event. Okay, how's about this? Jesus died because you and I are law breakers. We break the Ten Commandments. We see sin against God and because he's just. If he gave us what we deserve for being guilty, it would be very bad. Because of his standard of perfection, the Ten Commandments. Because he's so holy and any violation against his law is a crime against him, he should punish us severely. But he's good. And to save us and to still uphold justice, he sent his son Jesus to take the punishment that you and I dispute so that his goodness could be credited to our account and your badness could be put on him. It could be a great exchange so that you could be forgiven by God

[Todd Friel]

and go to heaven to be with

[Interviewer/Host]

him because of what Jesus did on your behalf. That's Christianity. Have you ever heard that before?

[Freshman Student]

Yeah, it sounds familiar.

[Todd Friel]

Sounds familiar.

[Interviewer/Host]

Kind of vaguely floating around a little bit. Yeah. So I guess the big question would be, is it true? I mean, that would kind of be the big issue, wouldn't it? Because if it's false, no big deal, you don't have anything to worry about. But if it's true and you're like the rest of us, you're a lawbreaker with lustful thoughts. You dishonored your parents when you're little. You lied, perhaps stolen. You covet things. You're angry at people when you shouldn't be. You'd end up in. So if it's true, you'd be in hot water. But if it's also true, you could also be forgiven. Right. So you should figure out if this is true or not, shouldn't you?

[Freshman Student]

Yeah, probably.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah. Yeah. You're thinking things through. Good for you. I'm glad you're doing that because it's a good time to figure things out. But could I encourage you to think about what I just said to you today and see if it's true?

[Freshman Student]

All right.

[Interviewer/Host]

Before. Before I go, young man, you should know this too. In order to be forgiven by God. Did anybody ever tell you what you need to do, at least according to the Bible? Do you know what you have to do if forgiveness is available for you? God is willing to forgive you because of what Jesus did. The kindest act of all time. The question is, how do you get forgiven? How do you get that goodness credited to your account?

[Freshman Student]

Confession.

[Interviewer/Host]

That's a part of it, yeah. We should talk to God and confess that we are wrong. He's right, I'm wrong. I've sinned against him, I've broken his laws, I've done dirty things. I've done wrong things and I'm sorry. We don't go to a man in a box, we go directly to God. Because Jesus provided a way for us to get to God. And we tell him that we're sorry and we turn from our sins. The word is repentance. We repent and we put our trust in Jesus. And the Bible says if you do that, all of your sins, past, present and future, completely forgiven. You'll be adopted as God's child and you'll receive everlasting life because of what Jesus did. That's the good news of the gospel. All the other religions will tell you, work, be good, try really hard and maybe. Maybe you'll get reincarnated or you'll go to a better place. The Bible says you can't do good good, but you can be forgiven by a very good God. And he will save you by faith alone in Jesus Christ alone. Something to ponder today, eh?

[Freshman Student]

Alright, yeah.

[Interviewer/Host]

Hey, you're a gentleman. Can I shake your hand? Don't let me wreck up get some germs on your bagel. Thanks for the chat, young man. All right, see you. Goodbye. Sure is a bummer that this is radio because I wish you could see people's faces sometimes. Nice young Man. But honestly, at the end of the conversation, he looked like he'd been tased, just jolted and jarred. He's trying to think things through. And it's obvious when you're checking out studies in psychology and understanding how the brain works and how the heart works and how to make things better, good for him. And if you're listening too, by the way, you're a drive by, you were scanning by and you found yourself on this particular channel. If you don't have it figured out, I beg you to consider what you just heard me say. Please consider what I've just shared with you from the Bible. Not me, but from the Bible that we are not basically good, we are basically bad. We are very, very bad. You know, Michael Jackson understood that and we need help. If God gives us what we deserve, we are in big trouble. Grace free, complete total available to you if you will come on his terms, not your terms, his terms, not Jesus and not well, I want my sins forgiven, but I want to keep doing them. You come to him on his terms, repent, turn from your sins. Doesn't mean you become perfect. But you have a new attitude. You don't want to sin anymore because that is the stuff that put him on the cross and caused him agony. That you might be forgiven. And you put your trust in Jesus Christ. And the Bible promises unlike every other religion in the world, every other religion in the world, your sins will be completely the forgiven and you will receive everlasting life. And if you don't mind, before we go go gotta throw in a line about psychology and this young man trying to figure it out. There's a million psychology systems that tell you how to fix the brain. And I'm telling you they do not have one study that has proven that psychology heals anybody. Ask a psychologist sometime and you'll see that look on their face like but no, this thing is working.

[Todd Friel]

Will continue on Witness Wednesday on wretched radio.

[Jimmy Hicks]

And it's now time for your daily Fortis news break of production of Fortis Institute. Well, we have some accountability for years late. Kaiser Permanente has agreed to pay $358,000 to settle claims at trample its employees religious beliefs over the COVID vaccine. Back in 2021, Kaiser ordered every worker to get the shot and denied most religious exemptions. Twelve of those workers filed complaints. Regulators found the company had likely broken the law. And now Kaiser's paying up and retraining staff on how religious accommodation actually works. And it's cold comfort for the 2000 it suspended back then, and the vaccine behind all of this is getting harder to look to. A new study says the shot is 55% effective at keeping people out of the hospital. But the real story is who tried to keep it quiet. The study came partly from the CDC's own scientists, yet the agency's new director refused to run it in the CDC's official report. And his reasoning? It ignores everyone, one who never got sick, which makes any vaccine look better than it is. And Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Wants to know why. A separate study tying a rise in infant deaths to the shot banished from its journal. Whether the scientists make the vaccine look good or bad, somebody always has a hand on the switch. And now to Nigeria, where armed militants stormed a small Christian village recently and killed 28 people, including the local pastor. Survivors say the gunmen knew exactly who they were going after going door to door, calling church leaders out by name. After cutting the phone line so nobody could reach help, a doctor and five patients died inside the village clinic. Nigeria, of course, led the world last year in Christians murdered for their faith. And a night like this is exactly why, as we tell you so frequently around here, please make sure that you're praying for all of our persecuted brothers and sisters of Ron back home. Four years after Roe fell, the National Abortion Federation celebrated by demanding abortion with no limits any month, any reason, and calling pro life Americans. Extremists set that against California, where 200 mothers are suing the state's attorney general over abortion pill reversal, which can stop a chemical abortion already underway. They used it to save their pregnancies. And when they showed photos of the children alive today because of it, lawyers called the pictures irrelevant. That treatment works up to 80% of the time, so a government lawyer looked at the photo of a living child and caught it. Beside the point. That wraps up today's Fortis News break. I'm Jimmy Hicks.

[Narrator/Promoter]

If you want more, you can download

[Jimmy Hicks]

Fortis or sign up the Book of Fortis Insider for exclusive daily content. Both of those things can be done right [e-mail] and don't forget, you can also subscribe to Fortis News on your favorite podcast app in order to get these updates daily. And until tomorrow, go serve your king.

[Todd Friel]

Know your church fathers. Ignatius of Antioch was a disciple of Peter and John and the Bishop of Antioch. He was arrested and sentenced to die in the Roman arena. As he prepared to go to his death, Ignatius said, let fire and cross, flocks of beasts, broken bones and dismemberment come upon me so long as I attain to. Jesus Christ. This is Wretched Radio with Todd Friel.

Dude, why are you wearing a suit? You got an interview.

[Interviewer/Host]

Are you a student here? What are you studying?

[Material Science Student]

Material science.

[Todd Friel]

I don't know what that means. Could you explain it to me?

[Material Science Student]

It's the study of creating material materials. And I guess an example would be like, concrete. All the additives to go into it, how to give it the properties you want.

[Todd Friel]

Okay. Do you think that you can create something out of nothing?

[Material Science Student]

What do you mean by nothing?

[Todd Friel]

Do you mean material, create? So let's say in my hand is nothing, which is nothing.

[Material Science Student]

Okay.

[Todd Friel]

Can something come out of that?

[Material Science Student]

In a sense, we can take energy and create things from energy.

[Todd Friel]

But energy is something.

[Material Science Student]

Energy is something, something. So that would be your definition of nothing, would be absolutely nothing? Probably not. We always take what's there.

[Interviewer/Host]

Okay.

[Todd Friel]

Do you believe that we evolved or were created? I would say evolved. So nothing became everything?

[Material Science Student]

I can't say.

[Todd Friel]

Where do you suppose everything came from?

[Material Science Student]

I have no idea. I don't really dwell on it.

[Todd Friel]

Would it be fair to say that nothing had to come from something? Something?

[Material Science Student]

I don't know.

[Todd Friel]

Because nothing can come from nothing?

[Material Science Student]

I honestly have no idea.

[Todd Friel]

I'm just trying to follow your logic here. If we can't create something out of nothing, then how did something come out of nothing? Something would have had to create everything. So wouldn't it be more logical and consistent to say somebody created us?

[Material Science Student]

I don't know, because you're assuming there's

[Todd Friel]

a creation star with.

[Material Science Student]

I mean, who says that? First of all, there's the creation.

[Todd Friel]

This is the creation.

Right.

We are the creation.

[Material Science Student]

I don't know. I mean, it could be that time is indefinite in both directions, right?

[Freshman Student]

Okay.

[Todd Friel]

There appears to have been a start. But for there to be a start and for stuff to exist, there had to be somebody or something that didn't have a start, that always existed. Otherwise, if that thing had a start, then there had to be somebody who didn't have a start before him. And you go into an infinite regress. So there had to be something infinite for there to be something now. Fair enough. Very likely, yes. Okay, so have I convinced you that we were created? Not that we were created, but that

[Material Science Student]

there was something that existed indefinitely?

[Todd Friel]

Who do you think that might be?

[Material Science Student]

I don't know.

[Todd Friel]

How's about God? Okay. That's an okay answer.

[Material Science Student]

Yeah.

[Todd Friel]

Okay. Do you think it would be reasonable to conclude that we can learn something about that God from looking at the creation? I look around, I Study stuff. If he made it, it gives me a little insight into what he's like.

[Material Science Student]

Sure.

[Todd Friel]

Would that be fair?

[Material Science Student]

Assuming he created it, yeah.

[Todd Friel]

Okay.

[Interviewer/Host]

There's probably something to print.

[Todd Friel]

Do you like it when bad guys are found guilty? Because they definitely committed the crime and justice is executed on that person. That the criminals get what they have coming to them.

[Material Science Student]

Do I feel bad for it?

[Interviewer/Host]

No.

[Todd Friel]

Do you like the idea of justice? That criminals don't get away scot free with murdering, raping, embezzling money?

[Mormon Student]

Yeah.

[Todd Friel]

Shoplifting. That's a good thing. Could I conclude that sense of justice that you and I have comes from our creator?

[Material Science Student]

I don't know. It's an intrinsic thing. Because everyone has a different sense of justice. Yeah.

[Todd Friel]

To varying degrees. But overall we agree that murder's bad, rape is bad, lying is bad, lusting is bad. I think overall there's something pretty consistent inside of the human heart that says there are some things that are just

[Material Science Student]

bad, but then there are also people who are. I mean, you could say they're mentally insane and it is a medical thing as well as, you know, also a mental thing. Just.

[Todd Friel]

But they're insane.

[Material Science Student]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host]

Okay.

[Material Science Student]

So, I mean, beyond the medical issues, there are people who just have very different senses of justice.

[Todd Friel]

Right. But overall we still have a. Our sense of justice might be perverted, contorted, wrong, misguided. But we have one.

[Material Science Student]

Right.

[Todd Friel]

And so does God.

[Material Science Student]

Okay.

[Todd Friel]

Okay. If God is just. How do you think you would fare if he judged you for the behavior that you've committed on this earth?

[Material Science Student]

Say that one more time.

[Todd Friel]

God is just okay. He's the standard of justice. We have a standard. We're maybe a little goofed up, but his standard of justice is perfect. And let's say that he opened up the books on your life to see how good you have been, whether you've been naughty or nice. What would God see? Have you been naughty or nice? Have you been good or bad?

[Material Science Student]

Both.

[Todd Friel]

You've been both.

[Material Science Student]

It's true.

[Todd Friel]

Okay, so if you've been bad and he is just, what do you think God should do with you? Do you think God should reward you or punish you?

[Material Science Student]

I have no idea. It's up to Him.

[Todd Friel]

What do you think? I agree. It's up to him. But if you've broken his laws, then he should give you punishment, shouldn't you?

[Material Science Student]

That's true.

[Todd Friel]

That would be right. That seems to be fair.

[Material Science Student]

Right.

[Todd Friel]

I'm guessing you don't think that you've probably broken any of God's laws. Is that a Fair guess.

[Material Science Student]

I don't know. I probably have.

[Todd Friel]

Have you told lies before?

[Material Science Student]

Yes.

[Todd Friel]

Stolen anything?

[Material Science Student]

No.

[Interviewer/Host]

Ever? I don't think so.

[Todd Friel]

Even as a kid?

[Interviewer/Host]

Change?

[Todd Friel]

Pocket change. Candy from a store?

[Material Science Student]

Not that I can think of.

[Todd Friel]

Didn't return a book, downloaded music, Showed up late for work but punched in on time?

[Material Science Student]

No, no, not that I.

[Todd Friel]

So you've been good in that department?

[Material Science Student]

I think so.

[Todd Friel]

Tell us about lust.

[Interviewer/Host]

Lust?

[Material Science Student]

Not particularly. I mean, there's nothing I can think of, but probably.

[Todd Friel]

You've never looked at a woman and had sexual desires or pornography and lusted?

[Material Science Student]

Yeah.

[Todd Friel]

Okay, so that would be a. That would be a crime against Gan and.

[Material Science Student]

I don't know. I mean, that's. I have no idea.

[Todd Friel]

Okay, well, what do you think about a guy, for instance, who would go through a neighborhood looking into people's windows, peeping in to see them in their bedrooms? You'd probably go, kind of a pervert, right?

[Georgia Tech Student (Nom Nom)]

Yeah.

[Todd Friel]

Looking at pornography. Kind of the same thing. It's just not going up to somebody's window. It's looking into the window of a computer.

[Material Science Student]

That's true.

[Todd Friel]

Have you ever taken God's name in vain? Do you know that that means to use God's name in a bad way?

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah.

[Todd Friel]

Okay, so he's the creator. He judges you.

[Interviewer/Host]

Right?

[Todd Friel]

Now he drops you dead and you stand before God.

[Interviewer/Host]

Boom.

[Todd Friel]

You're transported right before God. Would you be innocent or guilty before God?

[Material Science Student]

I have no idea.

[Todd Friel]

Well, you've lied, you've lusted, you've taken his name in vain. Sounds to me I could be guilty.

[Georgia Tech Student (Nom Nom)]

Okay.

[Todd Friel]

Doesn't it?

[Material Science Student]

I guess.

[Todd Friel]

I mean, if a criminal stands before a judge and he's broken the laws, he's guilty.

[Georgia Tech Student (Nom Nom)]

All right.

[Todd Friel]

Okay. What do you think God would do with you?

[Material Science Student]

I have no idea. I'm already dead, so he can't kill me.

[Freshman Student]

But.

[Interviewer/Host]

But your soul.

[Todd Friel]

Yeah, that thing inside of you that makes you you. Your body's not you. Your suit's not you. Suppose the soul inside of you is what makes you you. Your brain isn't even you.

[Guest or Co-host]

You're you.

[Todd Friel]

Okay, that thing. What do you think is to be going to do with you? Would he take you to a good place or send you to a bad place?

[Material Science Student]

I have no idea.

[Todd Friel]

Well, you've broken his laws. You're guilty. That's pretty straightforward. It's not a fun answer, but it's pretty obvious answer.

[Material Science Student]

If you're up for it.

[Todd Friel]

I could go to Purgatory, if there is such a place. You must be have a Catholic background. No, no.

[Material Science Student]

No.

[Todd Friel]

Just sounds like a good idea right now.

[Material Science Student]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host]

Okay. Pull out the Purgatory card. Exactly.

[Todd Friel]

There's a heaven, there's a.

[Interviewer/Host]

Of hell. What do you think God would do with you?

[Material Science Student]

I have no idea. I honestly don't.

[Todd Friel]

Yeah, you do. I mean, you've lost it. You've taken it.

[Georgia Tech Student (Nom Nom)]

Okay.

[Todd Friel]

God gave you life and your suit. Nifty suit, by the way. He's given you an education, air to breathe. Every single time you wanted one, he gave it to you. And instead of thanking him, you took his name in vain and blasphemed it and said his name in a bad way.

[Interviewer/Host]

Way.

[Todd Friel]

Okay, wow. I mean, that's pretty low. People don't do that with Adolf Hitler's name. I never hear anybody say, oh, Hitler. But when we say God's name in disgust, imagine his displeasure after he's provided you everything that is good and kind. Not to mention the lusting. Not to mention when you were naughty as a child or when you weren't grateful for. For what he's provided for you. If you've ever complained and carped about what you don't have, you'd be guilty. If God is just and he's good and he punishes lawbreakers, a just judge would give you what you deserve, and that would be punishment.

[Georgia Tech Student (Nom Nom)]

All right.

[Todd Friel]

When you brought up Purgatory, where'd you hear about that? What was that all about?

[Material Science Student]

It's just sort of a joke we pass around.

[Todd Friel]

Okay, but it's a Catholic concept.

[Interviewer/Host]

Right?

[Todd Friel]

But you don't have a Catholic background.

[Material Science Student]

No.

[Todd Friel]

Do you have a Christian background?

[Interviewer/Host]

For a while.

[Todd Friel]

What was it?

[Material Science Student]

Middle school? Elementary school?

[Todd Friel]

It was a Christian school, was it? Okay, so what did they tell you that God did? So you don't have to go to hell.

[Material Science Student]

All you had to do is believe.

[Todd Friel]

In what?

[Material Science Student]

Usually what they would say.

[Todd Friel]

Right?

[Material Science Student]

In what they'd always point to.

[Todd Friel]

Jesus is the Christ and Savior because he died to take the punishment you deserve.

[Material Science Student]

Yeah.

[Todd Friel]

God's wrath is aimed at you. But Jesus stepped in the middle, took the punishment you deserve because you've got a fine. Your court case is one. You can't pay the debt, but Jesus paid it for you. The wrath of the Father was put on the Son. The good man died for the bad man. That you might be seen as good in the Father's eyes. So that you can go to heaven, so your court case can be dismissed. So that you can be forgiven. Because God is kind and you if

[Interviewer/Host]

merciful, but he's also just.

[Todd Friel]

And he's got to Give people what they deserve. Okay, you deserve hell. But he gave that to Jesus in your place.

[Interviewer/Host]

So that you could be forgiven.

[Material Science Student]

Suppose.

[Todd Friel]

Yeah, yeah. Why wouldn't you trust that?

[Material Science Student]

I don't know. Just don't have any reasons.

[Todd Friel]

Jesus died for you. A sinner looking down for the corridor of time. He knew that you would lie and lust and take his name in vain.

[Interviewer/Host]

You all, every.

[Todd Friel]

He knows you better than you, Right? So every evil intention of your heart, every time you fail to be grateful, he knew it. But he died for you anyway. Can you think of a kinder act than that?

[Material Science Student]

I'm hungry right now, so if someone gave me food, I would probably be pretty happy.

[Mormon Student]

Really?

[Material Science Student]

I don't know.

[Todd Friel]

Better than dying for you so you don't have to receive the wrath of the Father.

[Christian Student/Listener]

That's possible.

[Todd Friel]

So you'd rather have a sandwich than salvation right now?

[Material Science Student]

Yes.

[Georgia Tech Student (Nom Nom)]

All right.

[Todd Friel]

All right, mate. Thanks for the chat.

[Interviewer/Host]

Appreciate it.

[Todd Friel]

All right, goodbye. I hope your interview goes well. Goodbye. All right, man. We'll continue on Witness Wednesday on Wretched Radio.

[Narrator/Promoter]

Hey, thanks for listening to Wretched Radio today. You know, a lot of ministries talk to individuals, and that's fine, but somewhere along the way, the local church gets forgotten. And we believe that to be a big problem because the local church is the institution that Jesus promised to build. It's not an afterthought. It's the plan. And that's why we exist at Fortis Institute. We exist to strengthen local churches, not replace them. Everything we create, our podcasts, our videos, all of our resources and teaching, it's all designed to be useful to pastors and small group leaders and church members who want to grow. We're not trying to be your church. As a matter of fact, we're always pointing to your local church. And if that mission is something that resonates with you, would you consider joining us as an ongoing monthly gospel partner? Your support helps us create content that equips the saints and strengthens the body of Christ. And we know you have questions about what that would look like in your life. And we've got [e-mail] Help us be a part of something that serves the local church. Wretched Amazing grace, Amazing Gospel Trust. The science. You've heard it a million times, usually right before someone uses it to shut a conversation down instead of opening one up. But science is a tool. It's not a judge. And like any tool, it depends on who's holding it and what they already believe. Two scientists can look at the exact same data and walk away with opposite conclusions. Conclusions because each one brought a different worldview to the table. Science also leans on a few things it can't prove that the universe stays orderly and that our minds can actually grasp truth. Both makes the most sense of a rational God made it all. You take him out of the picture and you're left trusting that chaos somehow adds up. That's where in the beginning with Dr. Jason Lyle comes in. He's a PhD astrophysicist. He'll teach you to read the science of headlines without getting played. New episodes of in the Beginning are dropped every single Wednesday on every single podcast platform in existence [e-mail] Remember when the craziest cultural ideas stayed in dystopian novels? Yeah, those days are over. We're living in the brave new world now, and it showed up faster than anyone expected it to. Social media didn't just change how we communicate, it changed how everyone thinks. And if you're not ready as a Christian, to defend what you believe about gender and sexuality and race and entertainment and a dozen other hot button issues, you're gonna get steamrolled. Worldview 2 picks up where the first one left off. Todd Friel and Dr. Nathan Buznitz tackled 22 more issues through a biblical lens. Critical race theory, modesty, persecution, environmentalism, secular entertainment and more. The stuff you're actually seeing in the headlines in hearing at your dinner table. Because the Christian worldview is under assault and, I don't know, isn't going to cut it anymore. Ratchet Worldview 2 is available in streaming right now for free on Fortis plus you can download the app on your smartphone, on your smart TV or simply visit fortisplus.org.

[Todd Friel]

Important dates in Christian history 1611 the authorized or King James translation of the Bible in the English language is published. 54 scholars worked for four years on the project. The King James version became the Bible of choice in the English speaking world for over 400 years. This is Wretched Radio with Todd Friel.

Here's my question. I'm asking people one question today. Ready? If you could ask God one question,

[Interviewer/Host]

what would it be?

[Todd Friel]

I guess would be why are we here? Okay, you don't know?

[Christian Student/Listener]

Not really. I mean, there are answers. Every religion has an answer. People, even non religious people, think they have answers. But when it comes down to it, we don't really know what we're doing here or why we're here.

[Todd Friel]

Are you a postmodern? Do you know what that means? Sort of would basically say God exists Western, Western mindset. The Bible reveals who he is. The modern mindset would say this whole God thing, I think humans have the answers. I think that humanity has the answer. And so it's the age of reason, empiricism. If we can verify it, test, make sure that it's actually there, then it's there. Otherwise it's not there. That kind of ended, let's call it 1989 with the fall of the Berlin Wall, when we recognize no man sure doesn't seem to have the answer. The 20th, 20th century was the bloodiest century of all time. We seem to have made a hash of it. And the conclusion is nobody has the corner on truth. Your truth is your truth and it's valid. My truth, even though it's completely different than your truth, is equally valid. We believe something completely different than one another, but we're both correct. That would be a post modern. Would that describe you?

[Christian Student/Listener]

Yeah, I would say so. I always sort of think that really there's, you know, no human can know an absolute truth.

[Todd Friel]

Like, but you just made one. You just made an absolute truth statement. No human can. I believe you are an evangelical born again Christian. Am I wrong?

[Christian Student/Listener]

I would say so, yeah.

[Todd Friel]

Okay, then that's going contra. So somebody is wrong, somebody can be wrong, they can believe it, but they're just wrong, wrong.

[Christian Student/Listener]

Well,

[Todd Friel]

okay, so let me give this a go. I believe that Jesus is God. Am I wrong?

[Christian Student/Listener]

I would say no.

[Todd Friel]

So you believe Jesus is God?

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah.

[Freshman Student]

You do?

[Todd Friel]

So you're a Christian?

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah.

[Todd Friel]

I'm a little confused. You said before we don't know what our purpose is. Isn't the purpose of a Christian to glorify God and enjoy him forever?

[Christian Student/Listener]

Saying just life in general. If you were to look at it without the benefit of religion, like, how would you interpret why we're here?

[Todd Friel]

What do you think your purpose is

[Christian Student/Listener]

right now? I mean, I don't know. I don't know where my life is going exactly.

[Todd Friel]

Not what job overall. You exist too blank.

[Christian Student/Listener]

Well, I think in general everyone exists to sort of make the world a better place. I mean, and like I said, I don't know if that's really why we're here, but I would like to believe

[Todd Friel]

that's why we're here. That sounds more like the theology of Coca Cola than it does Christianity make the world a better place so that everybody can get along. Christianity would say it's to glorify God, to give him what he deserves because he's our owner and he's our creator and he's our savior. So when did you become a Christian?

[Christian Student/Listener]

I was born into it, I guess so.

[Todd Friel]

Okay, here. So do you believe it really?

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah.

[Todd Friel]

You do? Tell me, how does a fellow like me get to heaven if I'm not a Christian?

[Christian Student/Listener]

I don't think you have to be a Christian to get to heaven. I think if you do what you can to help others, I mean, not everyone's going to think what's right is the same thing. That's right. But I guess within on a religious stance, what's right if you do that? I think that's what it really takes to get to heaven.

[Todd Friel]

Would you consider yourself to be a good person?

[Christian Student/Listener]

I would like to. I try to be a good person.

[Todd Friel]

Have you told lies in your life?

[Christian Student/Listener]

Yes, I have.

[Todd Friel]

Stolen anything?

[Christian Student/Listener]

Nothing major I can think of.

[Todd Friel]

It doesn't matter. The object doesn't matter. The value. The idea is what's behind it.

[Interviewer/Host]

The act of stealing.

[Todd Friel]

The act of stealing, not what you steal. That's irrelevant. Not impressive to God if it's a million or one dollar. But you've stolen. Have you lusted, had sexual thoughts in your mind about women?

[Interviewer/Host]

That I guess so, yeah.

[Todd Friel]

Okay. Because that's another commandment, you know, if you lust, you've committed adultery in your heart. Have you ever taken God's name in vain?

[Christian Student/Listener]

I try not to.

[Todd Friel]

But you have.

[Christian Student/Listener]

I suppose so, yeah.

[Todd Friel]

So that doesn't sound like a good person to me.

[Christian Student/Listener]

Yeah, I mean, I think, well, that's the. Like a big point of human life is the fact that we aren't perfect, that we try. I think the point of our life is to strive to be a good person. We're not always.

[Todd Friel]

Imagine a criminal standing before a judge who's broken the laws and he says, but judge, I've tried. The judge says, I don't care. I'm not interested in your trying. It has nothing to do with your crimes. You've broken the laws. I must uphold justice. I must give you what you deserve, what you've earned for yourself. That's justice. And our good deeds have no bearing on our case. So if you've broken God's laws like everybody else, that would make you a bad person like everybody else would.

[Christian Student/Listener]

I mean, if you looked at it strictly like that, then yeah, but really it's not a black and white issue. You can't say that, oh, you've broken it and then you're a bad person or you haven't broken.

[Todd Friel]

Sure, it's real easy. If a fellow, let's say that guy underneath the Tree raped a woman. Would you consider him to be a good person or bad person?

[Christian Student/Listener]

I would say bad.

[Todd Friel]

Okay, One act, you're a criminal. The end. It's black and white. You lie, you're a liar, you steal, you're a fool thief.

[Christian Student/Listener]

But I think that's the difference between the world we live in and really the world of religion.

[Todd Friel]

I want to reason with you, okay? You and I see a rapist and we go, that's really nasty. Because this is our perspective. We're about this tall in our morality and we look down and things get more and more scummy in our eyes. But God's perspective is way above ours. He's way holier. So he looks down and he sees lying and snow dealing as huge atrocities because of his perspective. You and I get turned off when something gets really disgusting to us. God gets turned off at things that we don't think are very bad because he has a higher perspective than we do. So lying to him is an abomination. Taking his name in vain is an atrocious thing to do because his perspective is so high and so holy. That's what the Bible teaches, that all sin and we all fall short of its standard. And what we've earned for ourselves is wrath. That's what we've earned. And while we think we're good compared to, well, pretty much everybody else on this campus compared to God's standard, and that's the only standard that matters.

[Interviewer/Host]

We're bad people.

[Todd Friel]

So God must give people what they deserve because he's just. But there's something inside of you that. I can see it in your eyes. You're going. That means everybody's going to hell. It means everybody should. Should go to hell. That's what we've all deserved. There's nobody on this campus or anywhere in the world who hasn't lied or lusted or was snotty to their parents, took his name in vain. That's what we've all earned for ourselves. But there's also something inside of you that says that is depressing. And is that all there is to God, Just justice?

[Interviewer/Host]

Nope.

[Todd Friel]

He has other attributes. He's kind and he's merciful. But here's the dilemma. He's got to give you what you do deserve. Because if he turns a blind eye to justice, he would no longer be just and holy, and he can't do that. But he's also a loving God and he loves you despite your crimes against Him. He loves you. So here's the tension. God's Got to give you wrath. But he wants to give you mercy to satisfy both so he can show you mercy. Wrath had to be poured out on somebody. You or somebody else. Who did God pour His wrath out on so that you could be forgiven and he could show mercy to you? Who did God pour His wrath out on so you don't have to go to hell?

[Christian Student/Listener]

See, the thing is, I may like logic, but I don't think it works that way. I mean, we. Whenever we think of God, we sort of anthropomorphize God. We think, oh, God is like a human but perfect. But that's not true. We can't say that. We can't apply these human ideas to God.

[Todd Friel]

Justice. His standard must be much higher. Okay, here's the question, though.

[Interviewer/Host]

All right?

[Todd Friel]

Who, according to the Bible, took the punishment of God on your behalf so that God's wrath and his justice could be satisfied? So that you could be forgiven and go to heaven because he loves you well?

[Christian Student/Listener]

Jesus. By dying on the cross.

[Todd Friel]

That's right. Yeah, that's right.

[Interviewer/Host]

Okay.

[Todd Friel]

Now, that either happened or it didn't. That's either the way or it's not. And there's either forgiveness available to you or there's not. As a Christian, that's our hope. That's why we love our God. He died for us so that we could be reconciled to him. So that he could satisfy justice because he's just, but so he could show mercy. He died in your place. And Jesus did become a man because we needed a representative. But he's also God so that the sacrifice would be acceptable to the Father. Father, Christianity offers you complete forgiveness of sins and everlasting life. It's either true or it's not. That presentation, all I can do is ask you today to think about that. It's so important. Because if you died, and what I'm saying to you is truth, God will thrash you. Every secret sin that you've done in darkness will be brought into the light. He's not going to let anybody get away with anything. His justice is that thorough because he's that good. But he offers you mercy. This is a good God we're talking about. Somebody who loves you so much he died for you so that you could be forgiven. It's an act of kindness. And if you've never understood it in that terms, I beg you to think about it that way. This isn't a threat. Turn or burns, that'll happen to you. If you don't turn, you will burn. But that's not what God is. He doesn't want to threaten you to follow him.

[Interviewer/Host]

He loves you.

[Todd Friel]

And he said, I died for you. Come, follow me. It's an act of kindness. You should repent and trust Jesus not to escape hell, but because he's been so kind to rescue you from hell. The Bible says you must repent and put your trust in Jesus and Him alone. And he will adopt you then into his family, and he'll grant you everlasting life so that he can get praise for all of eternity for being such a good God. The question is, why are you here? To glorify God. And here's how he wants to do that. He wants to save you so that he can point to you for forever and go. If anybody wants to know how good I am, I saved that rat from Georgia Tech. I took a worm and I made him my son. And I've granted him everlasting life. That's how good I am. That's your purpose in life.

[Interviewer/Host]

It's to get saved so that God

[Todd Friel]

can be glorified in your life.

[Interviewer/Host]

Would you ponder that today?

[Material Science Student]

Sure.

[Todd Friel]

Something to think about as you walk around. All right, man. Hey, thanks for the chat.

[Christian Student/Listener]

No problem.

[Interviewer/Host]

Goodbye.

[Todd Friel]

And until tomorrow, go serve your king.