Heaven Tourism Is Back + The Pastor Who Says He Needs a Jet

Summary

Podcast Summary

Wretched Radio with Todd Friel

Episode: Heaven Tourism Is Back + The Pastor Who Says He Needs a Jet
Date: March 23, 2026
Host: Todd Friel
Guests/Contributors: Mike Winger, Jimmy Hicks, Sadie Robertson, Justin Peters

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Episode Overview

This episode takes a critical look at the resurgence of "heaven tourism" stories—accounts from people who claim to have visited heaven during near-death experiences and returned with new revelations—and scrutinizes their biblical standing. The second half shifts focus to the controversy around prosperity pastors soliciting congregation funds for private jets, using questionable scriptural justifications. Throughout, the tone is skeptical, humorous, and unapologetically committed to biblical authority.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Heaven Tourism’s Return (00:33–24:53)

Critique of Modern Near-Death Experience Claims

• Discussion begins with Mike Winger highlighting the "heavenly tourism office has reopened" (00:33). He recalls the previous decade's popularity of books from purported heaven visitors and questions their biblical legitimacy.
• Key Rule for Analysis:
  • If “heavenly” revelations match the Bible, they aren’t necessary. If they’re new, they’re extra-biblical and unneeded at best, heretical at worst. (01:46)

Breakdown of Claims by Gabe Poirot

• Gabe Poirot's near-death testimony is played and analyzed:
  • Gabe recounts a skateboarding accident, an 18-day coma, and “meeting” Jesus, who says, "Gabriel, why are you concerned about that which has been paid?" (04:13)
  • Winger notes all of Gabe’s claims (“worthy is the Lamb,” Jesus paid it all, heaven as a person) are either already biblically established or vague, poetic restatements.
  • Quote: “Why did we need this young man to go to heaven to come back and tell us this?” – Mike Winger (04:00)
• Gabe describes supposedly heavenly scenes: talking flowers, worshipping nature, and overwhelming love.
  • Winger critiques this as “rehearsed”, “nothing new”, and “poetic, but not revelatory”.
  • Quote: “Like a soldier falling into an ocean of liquid love. Yeah.” – Mike Winger (08:41)
  • Winger also flags unbiblical elements, like the claim that Jesus’ wounds “had a name—Gabriel. He did it just for me” (15:54), as theologically skewed: “That’s just not right... Jesus died for the world. Not just for this young man.” (16:33)
• Discussion about infant loss and Gabe's claim of a heavenly nursery (17:29).
  • Winger: “We don’t know that… that's just not in the Bible.” (17:41)

The Alex and Colton “Malarkey” Precedent

• Reference to Alex Malarkey, child coauthor of "The Boy Who Came Back From Heaven":
  • Justin Peters recounts [19:14–22:58] how Alex and his mother later declared the story a fabrication, but the book continued to sell regardless.
  • Quote: “Her husband… has been profiting handsomely from the sale of these books. And yet here is little Alex… trying to tell people the truth.” – Justin Peters (21:09)

The Underlying Issue

• Why do people buy heaven tourism books?
  • Winger posits it’s due to “a lack of satisfaction in what God has revealed in his word.” (23:31)
  • He recommends reading the Bible, specifically Randy Alcorn’s doctrinally grounded book “Heaven”, instead of such testimonials.

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2. Authority of Scripture vs. Personal Experience (14:59–24:53, 29:29–40:24)

Sufficiency of the Bible

• Multiple reminders that all Christians need to know about heaven is already in the Bible (14:59, 24:53, 39:20).
• “If somebody comes along and says, hey, I got some new download... we simply must reject it.” – Mike Winger (14:59)
• The stories are presented as undermining the authority and sufficiency of Scripture.

False Equivalence with Biblical Visions

• Gabe Poirot tries to equate his experience with those of biblical figures (John in Revelation, Daniel, Ezekiel), asserting “there’s a biblical precedent” (33:33).
• Winger sharply responds: “He’s on that level? He’s Ezekiel, like he’s John?” (33:05)
• Points out apostolic authority and authentication through miracles were unique; modern claimants lack such validation.

The Danger of Subjective Testimony

• Winger laments that such testimonies direct believers away from “Thus saith the Lord” to “Thus say I” (32:03), prioritizing experience over revelation.

3. The Pastor and the Private Jet (43:52–End)

Hank Kuniman’s Jet Fund

• Mike Winger introduces pastor Hank Kuniman, who solicits funds for a private jet, justifying it with Mark 3:9 (“He told his disciples to have a boat ready for him because of the crowd”) (49:19).
  • Winger: “He used this detail in a historical narrative to justify… millions [for a jet].” (48:46)

Critique of Prosperity Preaching

• Winger derides the logic and hubris of prosperity preachers:
  • Quote: “Nobody’s that important. But this man apparently thinks that he is.” (45:00)
  • Suggests that the popularity of such preachers is a sign of judgment (51:51).
• Observes the industry tactics at charismatic conferences (long music sets, repeated offerings, manufactured “prophetic” presence), and questions why so many buy into it.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Mike Winger: “If it is already what Jesus has said, we don't need it. If it is not something Jesus said… then this is extra biblical revelation. That’s exactly what these books are all about.” (29:49)
• On Alex Malarkey’s honesty: “What a brave young man being willing to say I was lying the entire time.” – Mike Winger (22:18)
• On Prosperity Preaching:
  • “He said he asked God for a scripture to share with his followers to justify this ridiculous pastoral expense… Mark 3:9… There it is. Jesus had a boat ready for him. I need a jet.” (49:19–49:25)
  • “Why do people go for this stuff?... Because I think that they are an answer to prayer. And I don’t think that America is going to be judged because of these guys. I think these guys are a judgment.” (51:51)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro & Main Theme: 00:33 – 01:46
• Heaven Tourism Critique / Poirot’s Story: 03:53 – 17:56
• Alex Malarkey/Heaven Tourism Industry: 19:14 – 24:52
• Sufficiency of Scripture; Defining Authority: 14:59, 24:53, 39:20
• Gabe equates himself to prophets, Winger’s rebuttal: 33:02 – 34:35
• Prosperity Gospel/Pastor’s Jet: 43:52 – End
• Notable Quotes: (see above for timestamps)

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Additional Notes

• The episode maintains a humorous yet biting tone, with sarcasm and pop culture references.
• Wretched Radio persistently upholds “Sola Scriptura” (Scripture alone) in contrast to subjective experience.
• The hosts repeatedly refer listeners to biblical study and warn against being swayed by emotional, unverified testimonies or prosperity-driven ministries.

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Bottom Line

This episode is a polemic against “heaven tourism” tales and prosperity gospel excess. The Wretched Radio team insists all Christians need to know about heaven, suffering, and Christ’s love is already revealed in the Bible. Stories of supernatural journeys and self-important, jet-setting pastors are scrutinized and found wanting, both biblically and ethically. The overarching exhortation: don’t be distracted by spectacle or new “revelations”—read the Word for all you need.

Transcript

[Todd Friel]

Wretched radio begins in 3, 2, 1.

[Mike Winger]

Religion would not even be an issue except for the Bible. Before we get carried away, let's read our Bibles now.

[Jimmy Hicks]

I can assure you there are millions

[Mike Winger]

of Christians who did not take parts of the Bible literally. Forfeit all claims to your own authority. Stand without apology on the only authority that matters, which is the authority of God himself, entrusted to us in his word.

[Todd Friel]

It's time for rich radio with Todd Friel.

[Mike Winger]

Oh, boy. The heavenly tourism office has reopened.

[Gabe Poirot]

I actually died. They had to resuscitate me. In an instant, I was above my body and I watched my own friend hold my body in his arms and he was praying. And the closer I got to this light, I knew that I had an appointment.

[Jimmy Hicks]

This is so fascinating.

[Mike Winger]

And they would say, well, if it were true, this is a young man who has reopened the heavenly tourism doors because I thought that they had closed for good. If you recall, about 15ish years ago, heavenly tourism, it was all the rage. People taking trips to heaven, coming back to get publishing deals, and inevitably the books had the number of days they visited heaven. It was just ridiculous. One guy even said he spent like 13 days in hell. He comes back, he uses the same theme for the book. Because they sell squillions. That's right. Squillions of copies. Question why. Why are people so intrigued by these heavenly visits? I should say purported heavenly visits, because we know biblically, they didn't go anywhere. Now, their brain might have been synapsing all over the place, but they could not possibly take a trip to heaven and, and come back to tell us about it authoritatively. Why? Because Jesus said so. John 3:13. Nobody, nobody ascends to heaven but he who descended. This is an authority issue. Jesus was putting just an exclamation point on his authority. I'm the only one who can tell you what heaven is like. Therefore, anybody who comes along these days and says they've taken a trip to heaven and returned to sell a bunch of books, I don't know what happened to them, but they didn't go to heaven. Now we're going to make our way through the Fox News interview. And here is the rule as we listen to this young man. If he heard something in heaven that is already written in the Bible, well, then we didn't need his heavenly visit. If he went to heaven and heard something new, then that's extra biblical revelation. So what does that mean? It means that no matter how you slice it, what he is saying simply isn't true. It can't be true. John 3:13 and sufficiency of the Bible. And this is an adding to Revelation, and that we know from Revelation 22 is a done deal. So as we listen to this young man named Gabe Poirot, who was in a coma for 18 days and claims to have met Jesus. Let's keep those rules in mind. But before we do, Jimmy.

[Jimmy Hicks]

Yes.

[Mike Winger]

Would you be so kind to do a little clickety clackety there with whatever the AI or the Google machine.

[Jimmy Hicks]

Okay.

[Mike Winger]

Gabe Poirot, can we find his church? What can we learn about this fellow? You work on that, and we'll listen to Fox News interviewing a young man who went to heaven for 18 days.

[Gabe Poirot]

Say, worthy is the lamb. Worthy is the Lamb. Wow. Jesus is so beautiful. When Jesus looked at me.

[Mike Winger]

Okay, I gotta stop. Before Jesus looked at this young man, they're saying, worthy is the Lamb. Yeah. That ain't nothing new. Why did we need this young man to go to heaven to come back and tell us this?

[Gabe Poirot]

He picked up my face and he said, gabriel, why are you concerned about that which has been paid?

[Mike Winger]

Why are you concerned about that which is already paid for? Okay. Do we not know that our sins are paid for? Check. So why did we need this revelation? Is Jesus beautiful? We already know he's the altogether lovely one. Why do we need this new information? The answer is, we don't.

[Sadie Robertson]

Crow joins me now. Gabe, it's an unbelievable story. You're in a skateboarding accident. They have to resuscitate you. But what did you see? The accident happens. Your first vision?

[Gabe Poirot]

Yeah. So it's pretty wild because I was above my own body, and I looked at it and I said, wow, that was me. But that's not me, because who I am is, like, fully alive now, and it was just my body. Like, that was it.

[Mike Winger]

These seem to be pretty common sort of tales where people hover above their bodies. What. What is happening here? The answer is ultimately, on these deathbed tales, we don't know. But we do know that. That people don't die and then skedaddle off to heaven and then come back again to write a book about it.

[Gabe Poirot]

And then I was suctioned up to not just a place. Heaven that I was headed for isn't just a destination.

[Mike Winger]

Heaven is a person again. Yes, heaven is a person. That is what makes heaven heavenly. Jesus is there. He was suctioned up. Hmm. How does that compare to the visions of heaven that we do see in the Bible? Isaiah, Paul, who was Pharbon, he couldn't speak about Such things. And John, they had a vision. They did not claim that they actually were somehow suctioned up to heaven and then returned again with a new revelation. They were given a vision. So these are radically different descriptions. A biblical description of what an apostle saw in heaven versus this young man. They're wildly different. He claims to have gone to heaven. They claim to have had a vision. Furthermore, the individuals in the Bible who had these visions, they had some authority. They had the authority of being a prophet. They had the authority of being an apostle. For this young man to say that this actually happened, he would have to be able to verify it with a supernatural work. In other words, he would have to do a sign and wonders, which is the authentication of. Of the message of the messenger. Without that, well, I don't know what happened to this kid. I'm sure he had some sort of experience in his brain. But for him to claim that he went to heaven, and now he's coming back to tell us about it. Jimmy, did you find out about this young man?

[Jimmy Hicks]

I did.

[Mike Winger]

All right, give me the down low.

[Jimmy Hicks]

He currently attends Eagle Mountain International Church in Fort Worth, Texas. He also is a graduate of Kenneth Copeland Bible College.

[Mike Winger]

Okay. Okay. Yeah. Okay. All righty then. Thank you. Thank you very much.

[Sadie Robertson]

Wow. And so you go to the hospital, and obviously you're in this coma. We have the X rays. They'll put them up. But you say heaven is a person. I was very intrigued by that. You said everywhere you turned, you saw Jesus.

[Mike Winger]

Yeah, like, okay, I think that's Sadie Robertson. I think. I'm not sure. So I might take that back. I was intrigued that heaven is about Jesus. Yeah. That's why we want to go there, to be with our Savior. I don't know why. That would be a blast. That's no new information. This isn't extra biblical revelation. And if it were, the dude would need to do some signs and wonders, but actually, he couldn't even do that. Why? Because Revelation 22 says, don't add to this book. The canon is closed.

[Gabe Poirot]

Like the mountains and the trees, as the wind hits the leaves, they'll blow back and forth. And they have a note to them. They'll sing, worthy is the Lamb. Worthy is the Lamb. And then the waves and the rivers of the waters of life will receive that same note. And they'll sing back, worthy is the Lamb. Even the sand will receive the waves and sing, worthy is the Lamb. Like, you look at the flowers.

[Mike Winger]

Okay. I don't know what that poem was all about.

[Gabe Poirot]

And the colors in Heaven are beyond description. But even as you look at the flowers, you'll say, jesus, you're beautiful. Because he is all of heaven. Like, he's left, right, center, back. There's no escape. Like a soldier free falling into an ocean of liquid love.

[Mike Winger]

Okay, this guy's rehearsed. Like a soldier falling into an ocean of liquid love. Yeah. Will we look at the flowers in heaven? It's the new earth. And think, Jesus? Yes, that is accurate, that. That. Because we're finally going to be thinking rightly. The effects of the fall, they will have been reversed, and our and our busted thinking will once and for all be righted. So everything that we enjoy instead of just going, that was a good meal. That was a good cook. Good job, honey. No, it's going to be, wow. Jesus makes amazing food. He is so kind to provide this meal for me. That's the attitude we're supposed to have now. That is the attitude that we will have in heaven. This is nothing new, but it's interesting. This young man has obviously memorized some lines, hasn't he?

[Gabe Poirot]

That was the place I found myself in.

[Sadie Robertson]

And you actually spoke with Jesus? You know, we speak with him on earth through prayer. But you saw him face to face. You had a conversation. What did he say?

[Mike Winger]

This is going to be interesting. Remember our rule?

[Gabe Poirot]

Well, I didn't originally see him face to face because my face was down because I was so concerned that the list of my mistakes was going to be pulled up and I was done for it. It was like black and.

[Mike Winger]

Hold on. If you're a Christian, which apparently he was, because he claims to be a Christian of the Kenneth Copeland stripe. Why would he be worried about his past being dredged up? We already have promises that that is exactly what God won't do. Right?

[Gabe Poirot]

Like I have no hope. Right. But he picks up my face, he looks me in the eyes, and he says, gabriel, why are you concerned about that?

[Mike Winger]

Which is pa. That's already news that we know. And an individual who goes to heaven knows that. That's the Christian faith, that our sins are forgiven. This is. All right, so this is getting a little wobbly. Er.

[Gabe Poirot]

And he showed me the wounds in his hands. Not his hands. This was like his wrists. They carried the depth of eternity.

[Mike Winger]

Okay, this guy's worked it out. Do we not know that he had holes in his wrists and in his feet? Yeah, because first of all, we know that he was crucified. Second of all, there was a doubter named Thomas who requested to see them, including his side. I wonder if this young man got to see his side also. In other words, there is nothing this young man so far has said that is revelatory. It is already information that we have, therefore we don't need it. Therefore there are better books to read. This is Wretched Radio

[Jimmy Hicks]

Conflict. That's not an if in your life, that's a when. You will most definitely disagree with your spouse, your kids, your co workers, your in laws, maybe all of them in the same week. The question is whether those disagreements turn your home into a war zone for something you can actually resolve. That's what our resource Conflict is all about. Todd Friel, who admits he's an expert in conflict mostly because he's caused so much of it, and Dr. John street will both challenge you to respond in ways so radically biblical that even the people you've been fighting with will take notice. They'll walk you through biblical reconciliation step by step so you can actually heal what's been broken. If you're exhausted from the same arguments on repeat, if your home feels more like a battlefield than a refuge, there is a better way. And it's not another self help technique. It is Scripture Conflict is streaming right now on Fortis for free. Just download the app on your smartphone, on your smart TV, or simply go

[Mike Winger]

to fortisplus.org perhaps you've been wondering, is there a Christian university that isn't woke or that hasn't compromised on important biblical doctrines like, you know, the age of the earth? There is. It's the Master's University in Southern California. Beautiful campus. All of the athletics and activities that you've come to expect from universities. But it's more than that. The academic programs are most excellent. Preparing students for the future. The Washington Post just said number six for preparing students for the real world. All that plus the Master's University isn't woke and it is thoroughly biblical. Would you like to learn more? I encourage you to visit the Master's university at masters.edu wretched masters edu Wretched

[Jimmy Hicks]

Here's a question. Do you think like a Christian or do you just believe like one? See, a lot of evangelicals have accidentally split their brain in two. Faith goes in one box. Logic, science, politics, morality. Well, that all goes in another. And then we wonder why Christians sound just like everyone else when we talk about economics, education or anything outside of Sunday morning. Wretched Worldview endeavors to fix that. Todd Friel and Dr. Owen Strand tackle 22 real world issues through a biblical lens. Capitalism versus socialism, women in the military, Global warming, eugenics, guns Stay at home, moms. And then they show you what it actually looks like to think Christianly about all of it. And here's the best part. It's not just 22 answers. It's a framework. By the end, you'll have tools to build a biblical worldview on any issue that comes your way. Wretched Worldview. It's streaming for free right now on Fortis. Just download the app wherever you download apps on your smartphone or on your smart TV. Or just simply go to fortisplus.org.

[Todd Friel]

Know your Reformers Jan Hus, a Czech priest, was inspired by the writings of John Wycliffe to preach against papal excess and false doctrines such as transubstantiation. Even as he was burned at the stake by the Catholic Church, he continued to preach the gospel and sing the Psalms. This is Wretched Radio with Todd Friel.

[Mike Winger]

If you want to know what heaven is like, the authoritative book has already been written. This is Wretched Radio. Everything that you and I need to know about our eternity has been revealed to us. Therefore, if somebody comes along and says, hey, I got some new download, that's right, some new downlo, because I'm hip and groovy about heaven, we simply must reject it. Gabe Poirot claims to have left his body, met Jesus, and apparently spent 18 days with him, right?

[Gabe Poirot]

But he picks up my face, he looks me in the eyes and he says, Gabriel, why are you concerned about that which is paid for? And he showed me the wounds in his hands. Not his hands. This was like his wrists. They carried the depth of eternity. And his wounds had a name, Gabriel. He did it just for me.

[Mike Winger]

His wounds had a name, Gabriel. He did it just for me. I, I, I don't know who wrote this young man shtick, but it's clearly written. It's not that there's, it's heresy being spoken, per se. How he's framing it and phrasing it in this kind of poetic language is a little much, but he's not telling us anything new. Now let's keep listening to this young man to see if he says wrong.

[Gabe Poirot]

Like, I was his only one. I'll forever be his only one. He'd waited his entire life just for me.

[Mike Winger]

That's just not right. It's not right. Okay, I could say that there's some truth in that, but I'm just going to say that's not right. Jesus didn't die for one. Jesus died for billions. Jesus died for the world. Jesus didn't just die for this young man. Now is God's love for the individual that intense? It absolutely is. But this is the. If Jesus had come to die for just one, that would have been enough. I just.

[Sadie Robertson]

That is the message of Christianity. And it makes me tear up to hear that, because that's what Christ is all about. That's what Christianity is all about. A lot of people ask, why do we incur pain and suffering on this earth? And in your conversation with my friend Abigail, you said, people who have lost loved ones, lost babies, they actually are reunited with those babies. You saw that? What did you see?

[Mike Winger]

Now, that's. That's nothing that we don't know, isn't it? Now, let's listen to this young man's detailing lose.

[Gabe Poirot]

I. I tell everyone, they. They come to me, they say, I lost my kid. I look. I look back at them, I say, you didn't lose your child. Your baby's waiting for you. There's an entire nursery. Not just nursery. There's an entire place where all the kids are.

[Mike Winger]

And we don't know that. Okay, so we don't know that. I don't know if that's some sort of limbo, but that's just not in the Bible, that there's a big, heavenly nursery and that they're all just gathered there, waiting for their parents to finally arrive and come and pick them up.

[Gabe Poirot]

Waiting for their parents. And it's beautiful. Like, nothing is lost, nothing is broken. And I always tell people, if you're there going through a really tough time on this earth, the story's not over, so don't quit.

[Sadie Robertson]

And your story was not over. Ginger, a woman of faith came in and prayed over your body while you were in a coma for 18 days. I want to play what she had to say. Listen.

[Mike Winger]

All right. Before we get to the revival story, the resuscitation story, this apparently. What was her name? The woman's name. And then apparently, she has the ability to bring people back from the dead. That too. Not biblical. In other words, all of this is malarkey. That's right. Malarkey. Specifically, it's Alex Malarkey. I knew we were gonna be making our way through this interview. I pulled up Justin Peters from 15 years ago. He was doing a presentation on heavenly tourism, and he retells the story of Alex Malarkey, that's his real name, who also wrote a book when he was a child. Do you remember that story? Sold a ton of copies. But did you know the rest of the story?

[Justin Peters]

Speaking of lies, there's another book that was out. It didn't do as well. But have you heard of the book the Boy who Came Back From Heaven, The Story of Alex Malarkey? You have heard of it? Yeah. Didn't sell as many copies as some of these others, but there for a little while, it was very popular.

[Mike Winger]

You know why it didn't? Because it didn't say how many days he was in heaven. That's the key. Those titles work better.

[Justin Peters]

The gist of the story is that when Alex was six years old, he was in a car accident with his father. And his father was not injured, not severely or anyway, some bumps and bruises, but no big deal. Alex, though, was injured very severely. And as we speak today, Alex is. He's a quadriplegic. And he has to be hooked up to a machine to breathe for him. And barring God just miraculously heals Alex, Alex will never recover, ever. But Alex told this story about how he supposedly went to heaven. Now, again, Alex was a little boy when this happened. He was six years old. Well, long story short.

[Mike Winger]

Well, the reason that he brings up the detail of the age. Colton burpo. He was 4 years old when he spent 12 days in heaven. These were children. And what do you know? They both had a dad involved.

[Justin Peters]

Hmm. For short, about three years ago, I get an email. Two or three years ago, I get an email from Beth Malarkey. Beth is Alex's mother. And she reached out to me. She reached out to Phil Johnson at Grace to you, and she said who she was, and she said, these books have been out. They're selling a lot of copies. She said, but the story isn't true. The story isn't true. And he said, alex wants people to know that it's not true. And she was trying to get the truth out, but nobody would listen. Her husband, Kevin Mullarkey, has been profiting handsomely from the sale of these books. And yet here is little Alex, hooked up to a breathing apparatus, will never recover, and he's trying to tell people the truth. In fact, Beth told me in a conversation I had with her that one day in the hospital, their pastor at the time, the church they were going to, their pastor just one time came to see Alex in the hospital, even though he's in the hospital for months and months and months, just one time came to see him, and Alex told him, you've got to tell people the book is not real. Got to tell people it's not true. He wouldn't listen to him. They just continued to ride the gravy train.

[Mike Winger]

That's the behind the curtain. Look into these heavenly tourism books. Why did this young man suddenly feel a burning desire to speak the truth and say, hey, what happened to me? Made up. My dad, he told me and I rehearsed it and I practiced it and we sold a bunch of books. What happened to him? He got saved. That's what happened to him. And his conscience was torturing him. And that is why, for my money, little Alex Malarkey, he's a hero. What a brave young man being willing to say I was lying the entire time.

[Justin Peters]

And finally, about three months ago, Alex wrote an open letter and it was posted on the Internet. And he came out and he said, this story is not true. And then, boy, it really grabbed the attention of the media. And there for a day or two, from what I understand, it was the lead story, the most popular story on the planet, most popular news item in the world for one or two days there. And so it finally got out.

[Mike Winger]

And does that mean that people stopped buying the books? No. Does it mean that publisher didn't continue to prep? No. Why? It's a cottage industry. But I think we need to ask another why question. Why do people buy these books? Well, we don't know everybody's heart. We're not gnostic. We don't claim to be prophets around here who can read minds. I think that there can be people who, they just want to know more. They just have. It's like, oh, it'd be just. I'd like a more fleshed out picture of things that could be. They're not going to get anything accurate. Anything that they hear that is new is not biblical because it's an addition to scripture and anything that they read that's already been revealed, it's just repackaged. But I think that there's another reason that motivates so many people to want to know more, and that is a lack of satisfaction in what God has revealed in his word. There's plenty there. Study heaven in the Bible. Read Randy Alcorn's book Heaven it is magnificent. He's also got a devotional 50 days in heaven. Not like these guys going, you know, 50 days. Is that 50 days in heaven, something like that?

[Jimmy Hicks]

Yeah, that's it.

[Mike Winger]

It's a devotional. He didn't go there. He opened up his Bible, he studied it and with a sanctified imagination said, hey, this could look like this, this could be like that. But it was all Bible based. We have everything that we need to know. That is why when these people go about the business of appearing on Fox News selling a bunch of books. It's an assault against the authority and the sufficiency of scripture. That's the big issue. This isn't just oh fine, they're telling their tales and selling. No, it undermines the Bible. It undermines the authority of Jesus. Why? Because nobody ascends into heaven but he who descended from heaven. In other words, you want to know about heaven? We have got to go to the source, Jesus Christ. And that is everything that we need to know. This is wretched radio.

[Jimmy Hicks]

And it's now time for your daily Fortis News Breaker production of Fortis Institute. The Biden administration parting gifts keep getting worse. A federal court document reveals that just three days before leaving office, Biden's DOJ quietly settled a long running case with the Alavi foundation, an alleged Iranian front group. The deal handed back $174 million in interest in a Manhattan skyscraper the government had seized for illegal ties to the Iranian regime. The same Alavi foundation, you'll recall, that funded a mosque just 30 miles from the Pentagon where congregants honored Iran's martyred supreme Leader. Former FBI agent Laura Burns warned that allowing the foundation to essentially start over with a clean slate creates serious risks from a regime that has openly called for the death of American leaders. Speaking of regimes that brutalize Christians, it's now been eight years since 14 year old Leah Sharibeau was kidnapped from her home in northern Nigeria, Nigeria by Islamic militants. She was taken alongside 104 other girls. Most have been released. Leah, however, has not because she refuses to renounce her faith in Christ. And here at home, new data from Massachusetts shows abortions in the state doubled in 2024 to nearly 50,000, driven almost entirely by abortion pills. And half of those didn't even occur in Massachusetts. They were pills shipped to other states. The abortion abortion lobby has effectively turned the mail system into a powerful weapon for circumventing pro life laws nationwide. And a disturbing new study in the journal Social Sciences documents what parents already Pornography is directly fueling the sexual abuse of children. Researchers found its use to groom victims, normalize violence and socialize minors into degrading behavior. One forensic interviewer noted that smartphones with unrestricted Internet access are the single biggest risk factors. Some encouraging news from the defense sector, where major contractors like Lockheed Martin, RTX and Boeing are dismantling DEI programs and refocusing on their actual mission, which is building weapons systems that keep Americans safe. Lockheed suspended identity based employee groups. Boeing dropped DEI from executive pay structures and as one corporate engagement director put it you don't need supplier quotes quotas to defend the homeland. You need grit and merit. Meanwhile, the DHS funding standoff drags into its second month, with TSA agents working without pay, security lines stretching past three hours at major airports, and officers reportedly selling plasma to cover their rents. Elon Musk has offered to personally cover TSA salaries, which is a generous gesture that mostly highlights how absurd it is that Congress can't do its that wraps up today's Fortis news break. I'm Jimmy Hicks. If you want more, you can download Fortis or sign up to become a Fortis Insider for exclusive daily content. Both of those things can be [e-mail] and don't forget, you can subscribe to Fortis News on your favorite podcast app in order to get these updates daily. And until tomorrow, go serve your king.

[Todd Friel]

Important Dates in Christian history 1536 John Calvin publishes the Institutes of the Christian Religion, the most substantial theological work of the Reformation. Calvin's ideas would deeply influence church and politics in Switzerland and Scotland and take root in the newly discovered North America. This is Wretched Radio with Todd Friel.

[Mike Winger]

Oh boy.

[Jimmy Hicks]

Gabe remained in a coma for 18

[Todd Friel]

days until ginger, a close family friend,

[Mike Winger]

came to the hospital and a miracle worker. I looked at him and I said, gabe, you know my voice. You know when I pray. I know you can hear me. I know you're unconscious, but I know

[Sadie Robertson]

that you know I'm here.

[Mike Winger]

I'm going to pray that you wake up. You've got to wake up. You cannot stay in this coma. That is the voice of Ginger, the resurrector. This is Wretched Radio, Fox News. Wow. Must have been a really good press release because they decided to interview a young man who claims to have gone to heaven for 18 days. He was in a coma, definitely was in an accident. I'm glad that he's well, but whatever it is that he experienced, it is not what he claims it was a heavenly visitation. How do I know this? The Bible tells me so. Furthermore, when you come back and you start to claim this is what Jesus said, if it is already what Jesus has said, we don't need it. If it is not something Jesus said because we believe that the canon of scripture is closed, then this is extra biblical revelation. That's exactly what these books are all about.

[Sadie Robertson]

So you're in heaven and then you wake up and what happens? People had a lot of questions, I bet.

[Gabe Poirot]

Yeah, for sure. Well, I was sent back to my body and I woke up. And before Jesus sent me back. He said, gabriel, tell them who I really am.

[Mike Winger]

Okay, I think. I think that mandate has already been given. Do we need that?

[Gabe Poirot]

And he said, tell my family I'm coming back soon to get.

[Mike Winger]

To get them. Yeah, we already know that he's coming back soon. Yea. Come, Lord Jesus. Why would we need this young man to be suctioned up to heaven to return and tell us what has already been written in the Bible for 2000 years? The answer is, we wouldn't tell them

[Sadie Robertson]

I'm coming back soon. Wow.

[Gabe Poirot]

Yes. And when he said family, it wasn't just like one particular denomination or sect. Like, it was seriously like the family of God in heaven. We're all one family. It's so beautiful. And now I'm telling everyone that's listening to the sound of my voice like he died for them. Like, there's one viewer listening to the sound of my voice. And the one viewer is why he sent me back. And since being set back, I've just told everyone my testimony, whether it's on a bus or on tv. I tell them the same story.

[Mike Winger]

Yeah, see, that's the assault on the Bible right there. That people. Instead of just saying, hey, would you like to know what's going to happen to you when you die? Thus saith the Lord. This young man is going around saying, thus say I. This was my experience. This is why you should believe in Jesus Christ.

[Sadie Robertson]

And you know, I. I fully believe everything. But there had to have been doubters who said, there's no way that happened. What did you say to the doubters?

[Mike Winger]

Can't wait to hear.

[Gabe Poirot]

Yeah, well, I said, well, open your Bible to the book of Revelation, because it was actually John's encounter with Jesus.

[Mike Winger]

Okay, hold on right there, son. Yes, it was. It was a vision. From whom? An apostle who had been with Jesus Christ.

[Gabe Poirot]

Heaven, that he then was sent back and wrote all about, right?

[Mike Winger]

No, no, no, he wasn't sent back. That's the distinction here. This young man claims, I went, I was sent back. John said, I had a vision.

[Gabe Poirot]

And so we also know Daniel and Ezekiel.

[Mike Winger]

Now just consider what this young man is saying. He's on that level. He's Ezekiel, like he's John. Like God has chosen him to take a special trip to heaven. And by what authority? How do I know what this young man is saying is true? What is his authority? And the answer is, short of signs and wonders, he doesn't have any. This is nothing but speculation.

[Gabe Poirot]

Isaiah, like there's. Biblically speaking. Actually, there's a Very biblical. A precedent for having encounters with Christ and telling the story.

[Mike Winger]

Encounters with Christ. Define what you mean by that. Furthermore, when you list those people, Ezekiel and Daniel, Moses, for instance, just seeing God face to face, being hidden in the cleft of the rock, of course, but the number of individuals that have had any sort of vision, Isaiah, John, Paul, what are we talking about here? Like six guys over the course of 6,000 years, and now 2,000 years after the Bible has been closed, this young man, now I'm the new Isaiah, I'm the new Ezekiel, the chutzpah behind this is absolutely staggering that they think that they are on, that God chose them for this special mission.

[Gabe Poirot]

And yeah, even Jesus said, he that believes on me will never die. My body might have died, and I was sent back and I was healed, but I was fully alive in him.

[Sadie Robertson]

Wow.

[Mike Winger]

Okay. Wow. Yeah. Wow. What? Huh?

[Sadie Robertson]

And, you know, we've had conversations on this show with others who have been through the same situation, and a common refrain we have heard is, this is not real life. That was real life?

[Gabe Poirot]

Yeah.

[Sadie Robertson]

Was that your experience, that that life was the real one? It's hard for me to conceive that, but it's a common theme.

[Mike Winger]

Real life, you know, words aren't very well considered in this interview. Is that the ultimate life? Yes. Is that going to be life the way that it's supposed to be? Yes. Yes, it is. But that doesn't mean that this isn't real. This is real. This is broken. So language kind of means something here.

[Gabe Poirot]

It's so true, and I'm so thankful. Actually, John Burke, who endorsed my book, we had him on. Yes, he endorsed my book.

[Mike Winger]

And, Jimmy, would you be so kind to look up one Sean Burke?

[Jimmy Hicks]

I will.

[Mike Winger]

And what's he all about?

[Gabe Poirot]

Talk all the time about just how he's here at all these other encounters. And I'll tell him the same exact thing, because this life, I compare it to when TV first came out in the early 1900s. It seemed real to people. It seems so fascinating. But you compare that quality now to what people are watching now. It's like out of this world, like the HD of today is nowhere near what it used to be. The 1900s, well, it's even that times a thousand, like heaven is so real.

[Mike Winger]

I have no idea what that was about.

[Gabe Poirot]

And it's not just seven senses. Your seven senses are manifold. They come alive. And you're not only smelling and tasting and hearing, but it's that times a thousand.

[Mike Winger]

Okay?

[Gabe Poirot]

It's. It's literally unexplainable yeah.

[Mike Winger]

Okay, then why'd you write a book about something that's unexplainable?

[Sadie Robertson]

Unexplainable. And you know our days on this earth are numbered. I may have one more, I may have many more, and I hope it's many more. But what do you say to people as we approach life and the hurts and the troubles and wars and all of the horrible things that happen here? What's your message?

[Gabe Poirot]

Yeah, we can find our hope in not just a God who considers loving us, not just a God who maybe can love us. I met a Jesus that didn't think about loving me. He was love to me. He is love to me, and he will forever be love to me. Like I said, was his and he was mine.

[Mike Winger]

Okay, little gloppy, but having said that, nothing we don't know. Do we not know that Jesus loves sinners? Is that nowhere in the Bible do we just have a hint of that message? No, it is all throughout the Bible. It's the most popular verse from the Bible, at least if you go to a football game, specifically in the end zone. This is just information that we simply don't need. Jimmy, what's a Sean Burke?

[Jimmy Hicks]

It's John Burke, I think is what he said. John Burke. And he is a. He used to be the former pastor of Gateway Church in Austin, Texas, and he has studied.

[Mike Winger]

Oh, Gateway. That's Robert Morris, right?

[Jimmy Hicks]

Yeah, I think so.

[Mike Winger]

Yeah. Okay. Yeah, got it.

[Jimmy Hicks]

And he has studied near death experiences and people with these stories of heaven a lot. He's gotten several. He has several books on it himself.

[Mike Winger]

Of course he does. Yeah, it's a little cottage industry, but I hadn't been hearing of any of these. This is the big one as of late. But honestly I thought it's been years since we've heard these heavenly tourism tales being told. When I was 12, something like 12, I had a terror of death, just horrified of death. I knew nothing about the Bible. I knew the name of Jesus, of course, but I remember a buddy from. I think it must have been. It was even in grade school. So whatever. Like that would have been in grade school, whatever that age is. Said that. They said that he saw a picture, somebody showed him a picture. They were in an airplane, they took a picture out the window and saw Jesus walking on the clouds. And I remember going, I want to see it, I want to see it. Let me see this picture so that I can have proof sufficient for me so that I could believe in the one who walks on the clouds. I get it. There's this desire. But that is precisely the problem with these books. We already have something said Peter, who did see Jesus in a this was not a vision. This was Jesus in the transfiguration giving them a glimpse of his divinity. Just a glimpse of would kill him if they saw the whole thing just shining through his humanity. He saw that. And what did he say about that? Hey everybody, I saw this thing. Therefore you should believe in Jesus. No, he said we have a more sure word than actually the story. The report of a man who saw divine human Jesus. We have a more sure word. The Bible is a better source. The Bible is more certain. The Bible is more authoritative. We simply don't need these other tales. And I get people's appetite for it. But if people want to know about heaven, they need to go read their Bibles. And if people don't think that that is sufficient and that they need an extra sign, they need specific for God to reveal to them something a little bit more. Why would this kid's book be better than the Bible? The answer is it isn't. In fact, it's worse than that. It's anti Bible. This is Wretched Radio.

[Jimmy Hicks]

Hey, thanks for listening to Wretched Radio today. Seriously, I mean it. Thank you so much for being a part of what we do here at Fortis Institute, not just with Wretched Radio, but with all of our other content that we're producing on a daily basis. Whatever keeps you coming back and showing up, we don't take that lightly. There is a reality about all of this, and that's that producing daily radio like Wretched takes resources. It takes studio time, equipment, staff, distribution, and it all adds up. And the reason that we are able to continue doing this at the level that we've been doing it is because of our gospel partners, men and women just like you, who have linked arms with us and give to this ministry so that we can stay on the air and reach more people in more places all over the world. And so if our ministry has ever been a source of encouragement for you, would you consider joining us as an ongoing monthly gospel partner? You can get all of the answers to all of the questions you likely [e-mail] right now. Wretched Amazing Grace Amazing Gospel Most men don't make one big decision that takes them off course. No, it happens gradually. And eventually you look up and you realize, I've been coasting for years. Well, Dr. Adam Tyson has created Walk Like a Man. It's available now on Fortis Plus. Dr. Tyson knows that's the story for way too many guys right now. And so he gets into God's word and he lays out what it actually looks like to walk with wisdom and live with real conviction. And the way he teaches it, you'll walk away from every episode knowing exactly what to do and why it matters. This is biblical teaching that puts solid ground under your feet and gives you a clear path forward. It's streaming right now, with new episodes dropping every Monday on Fortis for free. Download the Fortis app right now. Wherever you download apps on your smartphone, your smart TV, or just go to fortisplus.org and walk like a man. There's a lot of Christian content out there that sounds deep, but it actually isn't. It's inspirational, it's nice, but it doesn't actually help you when life gets hard. Forda's forums are completely different. We're talking about how to comfort someone who's grieving and what scripture actually says, not just what sounds nice. We're talking about marriage when things aren't easy, and mental health and whether the Bible has real answers the question Biblical manhood for a generation that's never been really given a model to follow. These are in depth conversations with people like Dr. Jason Lyle Libby Glossin, Dr. Adam Tyson and Dr. John Kratz, teachers who take the Bible seriously and don't shy away from the hard topics. These Fortis forums are all on Fortis for you to watch right now for free, and they're ready when you are. Just download the app wherever you download apps on your smartphone, your smart TV. Or just simply go to fortisplus.org and see what biblical depth actually looks like.

[Todd Friel]

Hermeneutics A vital part of biblical hermeneutics is an understanding of genre. One genre we find in scripture is prophecy. Prophetic books record God's warnings to Israel and other nations of the consequences of continued rebellion against him and the blessings waiting those who trust him for salvation. This is Wretched Radio with Todd Friel.

[Mike Winger]

Ken Copeland strikes again. This is Wretched Radio. Not only did young Gabe Poirot, who studied under Ken Copeland, claim to have taken a little vacation for 18 days to heaven to be sent back to tell us everything that we've already read. Bible yeah, that's right, but was reading another article of a pastor. I've actually seen this guy at recent Ken Copeland, whatever they call them, money bilking schemes, thing event conferences that they do. His name is Hank Kuniman and he's had enough of commercial flying. Hey haven't we all. And so what do you know? Ken Copeland told him it's time for you to buy a private jet. And the details and the quotes from this man are of out are absolutely. Well, they're disgusting is what they are. Let me share this with you. It's from Christian Post. Had this. This fellow, Hank Cuneman. He's the senior pastor. Jimmy, I'm gonna go out on a. On a limb here. Does his wife co pastor with him by any chance?

[Jimmy Hicks]

Absolutely.

[Mike Winger]

Ah, Lord of Host church in Omaha, Nebraska. Founder of One Voice Ministries. I can't afford, with my schedule and what I'm doing to be your pastor here, to fight alongside with God, to fight for your children alongside of you, to fight for this country alongside of you. To be stuck in an airport somewhere and be gone for three, four days or to not get back for a Sunday. So I want to start a travel fund. Wow, this guy's really important. I mean, he thinks he's really important. I think that's how a lot of these guys justify these ridiculous expenditures. Whether it's a private jet, it's a mansion on the ocean. I just needed to do ministry in order for me to be effective, in order for me to get things done, I need to have a private jet. Nobody's that important. But this man apparently thinks that he is. So he's starting a fund, and guess what? His wife is all for it, claiming it's difficult for him to continue all the work God has appointed him to do while dealing with long lines and messy airlines. Hey, you preach, brother. You preach. I feel you, man. Now, it's not like you could messy lines. There's the. What's the thing that I know I always look at and go, I should do that. And I never get around to it. It's where you get screened in advance and you get to go through a faster line.

[Jimmy Hicks]

PreCheck.

[Justin Peters]

TSA.

[Jimmy Hicks]

PreCheck.

[Mike Winger]

See, I was trying to make it appear like I'm just choosing not to say the word as opposed to I couldn't remember. Yeah, pre check. That's what it's. There's clear. Also, if I'm not. That's something like that, I think. Nevertheless, you can, in a sense, cut the line, but that apparently uses up too much time for this very, very, very, very important preacher. He said he was headed to Boise, Idaho, when his flight got delayed last Thursday. Since he needed to be at that meeting, he said he made the sacrifice. He made the sacrifice to charter a private jet despite the expense. This man is so, so Sacrificial. He made the sacrifice quote. This is really quite galling because I'm so dedicated to God and to you, the people. And I am dedicated to the United States to fight for it. Brenda. I feel like I'm supposed to be there at all costs. He told his wife and ministry partner. I know we're paying a lot of money here, but, Brenda, I'm pressed. You know where the Bible says Jesus was pressed to go to Jerusalem? I'm not sure. The word pressed is compelled but not pressed. I don't know what word that is. I felt pressed that I have to do this. I don't need another thing to do. That's not why I do it. It's because I'm trying to be obedient alongside of you and with you. And if you know me, there's no quitting me. And then this is if you thought it couldn't get any worse. He said he asked God for a scripture to share with his followers to justify this ridiculous pastoral expense. Jimmy, you want to take a guess what verse he used to justify the fund for a private jet?

[Jimmy Hicks]

No,

[Mike Winger]

I'm gonna. I'm gonna let you look it up.

[Jimmy Hicks]

Okay.

[Mike Winger]

Look up mark 3. 9. Mark 3. 9. He used this detail in a historical narrative to justify what does a jet cost these days. I haven't shopped for him for a while, so I'm. I'm a little. I don't know what the modern day pricing is, but. So it's got to be millions, right?

[Jimmy Hicks]

65, probably.

[Mike Winger]

No.

[Jimmy Hicks]

I bet you it's something in that

[Mike Winger]

range you've been shopping.

[Jimmy Hicks]

No, no, no.

[Mike Winger]

All right. What's Mark three. Nine say? Let's see if you can get it.

[Jimmy Hicks]

And he told his disciples to have a boat ready for him because of the crowd, lest they crush him.

[Mike Winger]

There it is. Jesus had a boat ready for him. I need a jet.

[Jimmy Hicks]

Such a servant

[Mike Winger]

quote. So even Jesus was concerned about going to certain ports and airports and things. Oh, man. Scylla. He had to have smarts because of where his ministry was and how it affected people and how it affected him as a vessel. This guy's comparing himself to Jesus, telling the disciples, hey, have a boat ready. Did they buy the boat? Doesn't tell us in the text, is a boat comparable to a private jet? No. No, it's not. Brother Copeland had given us a word. Brenda Kunaman recalled noting that the Copeland prophecy happened right before the COVID 19 pandemic began. We're having lunch, and Copeland stands up. You know how Brother Copeland is And he's got that gruff voice. He goes, hey, I'm going to tell you something. And he stands up and points his finger. You know, when Brother Copeland points his finger, you better listen, right? No, you should probably do the exact opposite. And he said, your days of flying commercial are over. She continued as her husband recalled feeling the spirit of God on the words. Yes, that's what I'm feeling. But, you know, then we're like, well, how do we do that? Well, chartering is a step toward owning a plane. Jimmy, did you go to the church website of this fellow?

[Jimmy Hicks]

Yes.

[Mike Winger]

Are there pictures? How big is it? How many people sit there?

[Jimmy Hicks]

It looks like a lot.

[Mike Winger]

Thousands.

[Jimmy Hicks]

Yeah. I think the membership is about 4,500.

[Mike Winger]

Oh, no.

[Jimmy Hicks]

Yeah.

[Mike Winger]

And so what we want to do is keep pastor on the private jet as much as we can. Because he's such a servant, I believe that I'm going to start believing for it actively. I need you back here on Sunday. I didn't want you stuck in an airport to miss today's service. I don't want him going commercial. I wonder, does she fly commercial while he's in the private jet? Or do they maybe do it together? Why do people go for this stuff? Why do they fall for this chicanery? Why do they buy Heavenly Tourism books? Why do they give money to a guy to use for a private jet as if he's so important? I'm trying to think of that. If every one of these guys have said that, look, if I'm going to do be more effective administrative. Jesse Duplantis has offered that trope that he's. If I'm going to be able to get all this stuff done, then I've got to be going around in private. Otherwise, because it's more efficient use of my time. I don't know what it costs per hour to fly a private jet. Al Gore would know. Ironically, I don't. But nobody's that important. Nobody. Does a minister have to eat dirt for Sunday brunch? No. No, he doesn't. But should he be flying around in a private jet? What does that tell the world? Well, the world gets it. The world totally gets it. Why don't the people at these churches get this? Why do they fall for that? Honestly, every time I see some of these prosperity preachers and they've got these huge crowds and it's not uncommon for them to do. You know, they do like three hours of music at these events, and then they take an offering. And if there's not enough in the offering. You know what they do? They send the bucket back around again before the celebrity appears on the stage. Not kidding. That's what they do. How do people not see it? Because I watch these events and I'm like, what is it? What is the attraction to this? It can't be the individual. And tragically, I think the answer is God is answering their prayers. They want somebody to tickle their ears. That's what they want. And God gives it to them. Are these individuals all that charismatic? A lot of trickery. A lot of the same sort of trickery. The walking around, the pausing as if they're getting divine revelation, the speaking in these short, these. These sentences that appear to be biblical, but they're not. These guys just aren't all that interesting. And yet people go for it. Because I think that they are an answer to prayer. And I don't think that America is going to be judged because of these guys. I think these guys are a judgment on so many people who don't want the true gospel, who don't want the riches that we have in Christ Jesus. They want the lesser thing. And they're willing to listen to these knuckleheads and buy the lies of these prosperity hack charlatans because that is what they want. Hope you're happy. We have to witness to those people and share with them there's something better than money. And until tomorrow, go serve your king.