Should Pastors Preach Politics? | Todd Interviews John Crotts

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Should Pastors Preach Politics? | Todd Interviews John Crotts"

Wretched Radio with Todd Friel | Fortis Institute | July 7, 2026
Guest: Dr. John Crotts (pronounced "Kratz"), Fortis Institute Fellow & Longtime Pastor

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Overview of the Episode

In this episode, Todd Friel welcomes Dr. John Crotts to discuss a central tension in many churches today: should pastors preach on politics and social issues, or keep their focus on the timeless truths of the Gospel and expository Bible teaching? Using Crotts’ recent book "Upsetting the World" as a launch point, they explore how Christians can have cultural impact, the power of the local church, and how to navigate passionate personal convictions within congregational life—all with a healthy dose of wit, candor, and biblical reflection.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. "Upsetting the World" – What Does It Mean?

[00:34–04:56]

• Acts 17’s Model: The early church was accused of "upsetting the world," not by political agitation, but by the radical nature of the Gospel message that upends lives and societies.
  • Dr. Crotts: “...if you are not responsive to the gospel, you have to hear the bad news before the good news makes sense.” [02:39]
• The power lies in confronting sin, calling for repentance, and pointing consistently to Christ—even if this makes people uncomfortable.

2. Methods of Evangelistic "Upsetting"

[05:33–11:17]

• Crotts shares personal stories about witnessing in unexpected places:
  • At Liberal Churches: Visiting Sunday school classes while traveling—and even being invited to pray or teach after presenting clear Gospel truth.
    • Dr. Crotts: “[At the end] I prayed the gospel again. I had three different people after the class come up and ask if I would move to that area and plant a church...” [06:50]
  • Bookstores and Libraries: Engaging with seekers in religious book sections, especially in the Bible Belt, where many presume Christian faith but may not know the Gospel.
  • Sidewalk Evangelism: Speaking with crowds attending prosperity-preacher events, highlighting just how "lost" many religious people can be.

3. The Unique Role and Messiness of the Local Church

[17:20–25:42]

• The church is God’s chosen community—messy, diverse, sometimes difficult, yet irreplaceable.
  • Dr. Crotts: “If you join in, you're just adding to the number... We should love the church because the Lord loves the church. Christianity is a team sport...” [18:34]
• Church Hurt & Disillusionment:
  • Even the biblical churches (Revelation 2–3) were imperfect, but leaving, or expecting perfection, misunderstands God’s plan.
  • Todd Friel: “There are annoying people at church... Whenever there's somebody who annoys me, it's like... I probably annoy them...” [20:59]
  • The "school of character": Just as marriage sanctifies, so does life in imperfect community.
• Safety, Growth, and Accountability:
  • Regular preaching and community protect believers from loneliness, false doctrine, and sin.
  • Local church engagement is vital in times of hardship and spiritual drift.

4. Family Integrated Church Movement & Church Fads

[33:40–39:49]

• Crotts addresses a trend where some Christian parents push to structure all church life around the nuclear family (family-integrated model).
  • He appreciates aspects but warns against making personal preferences church-wide mandates (e.g., only homeschooling, only family worship, anti-Sunday school).
    • Dr. Crotts: “If we're strong where the Bible is soft…and say, this is the only way that it can be done, I think that ends up causing problems inside of a church.” [38:38]
  • The healthiest approach: Celebrate diversity in methods so long as they align with core biblical truths.

5. Politics from the Pulpit? The Pressure on Pastors

[44:13–54:27]

• There is increased pressure from church members (& the broader evangelical culture) for pastors to address political and social issues with urgency and intensity.
  • Todd Friel: “Our civilization appears to be crumbling and people are like, ‘You gotta preach about it.’”
• Dr. Crotts offers pastoral wisdom:
  • Remember that pastors are shepherding diverse needs, not just your hot-button issue.
  • Most shepherds work with a team (elders) to discern what is needful for the flock.
  • Dr. Crotts: “We want to keep the main things, the main things for the whole flock. And usually that's going to be preaching God's word.” [46:27]
• Why Not Just Preach on All the Issues?
  • It’s not sustainable to chase every trend—instead, build the congregation’s theological foundation so they’re equipped to respond biblically to any issue.
    • Dr. Crotts: “Having a deep, rich, biblical view of God is going to help everybody in their perspective about any issue.” [49:05]
  • Sometimes, during major crises, topical messages may be warranted (e.g., after tragedies)—but they should serve to anchor hearers in timeless Scriptural truth.
    • Dr. Crotts: “I definitely think there are times when everybody in the congregation is concerned about one subject... we need to address it from scripture.” [51:28]
• Danger of Mandates:
  - The demand that “You must preach at 11 [maximum intensity]”—or else—is unhelpful and contrary to pastoral calling. - Todd Friel: “Perhaps one of the worst things you can do for the local shepherd is to tell him how exactly to feed the sheep.” [54:27]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Dr. Crotts on Church Evangelism:
  “I have some friends that have done it regularly [visiting Sunday schools], and they said…within four weeks they've been asked to teach the class.” [08:14]

• Crotts on the Family Integrated Movement:
  “I am grateful that [my children] have other voices besides me pointing them to the Lord... I don't consider that an abdication of my responsibility, but using the whole body.” [35:54]

• On Political Preaching Pressure:
  “I have experienced people telling me that I must do that and I must do it this week. Don't even have a chance to think about it or process it.” [53:54]

• Todd’s Pastoral Analogy:
  “Shepherd the sheep the Lord has given to you, not the sheep you wish they were.” [33:04]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Acts 17 & "Upsetting the World": [00:34–04:56]
• Witnessing Experiences (Liberal churches, bookstores, etc.): [05:33–11:17]
• Why Love the Local Church: [17:20–25:42]
• Benefits & Challenges of Long-Term Pastoring: [30:28–32:47]
• Family Integrated Model Discussion: [33:40–39:49]
• When Should a Pastor Preach Politics?: [44:13–54:27]
  • Pastoral pressures; balancing Bible focus with contemporary issues: [44:13–49:54]
  • When to address urgent social issues: [51:28–53:54]
  • The push/demand to preach politics: [53:31–54:27]

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Tone & Style

• Todd Friel keeps a lively, conversational, and sometimes tongue-in-cheek tone (“If you want to be upset, watch Fox News. If you want to be upsetting…you’ve come to the right place.”).
• Dr. Crotts is steady, pastoral, and thoughtful, aiming for charity and balance in controversy.
• The overall style is both direct and charitable, deeply rooted in Scripture but aware of modern church challenges.

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Takeaways for Listeners

• Be a “world-upsetter”—by the Gospel, not by partisan shouting or church fads.
• Love and plug into your local church—even with all its messiness; God designs sanctification through community.
• Allow pastors to feed the flock wisely—support them in keeping Christ and Scripture at the center.
• Don’t let your personal spiritual passions and causes become unbiblical mandates for the whole church.
• When social and political issues arise, strong biblical theology is the best foundation for wise response.

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Final Word:
As Dr. Crotts and Todd Friel remind, the health of the church—and its impact on the world—comes not from chasing the culture’s fever, but from a steadfast focus on Christ, the Gospel, and life together in the Body.

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(End of summary)

Transcript

[Todd Friel]

Wretched radio begins in 3, 2, 1.

Now, I can preach it like this. Okay?

[Unknown Participant]

Repent.

[Todd Friel]

Or I can tell you change your mind. Preaching repentance in the area of consciousness of sins is dishonoring the work of Jesus.

[Unknown Participant]

Repentance means you realize you're guilty, that you deserve the wrath and punishment of God. You begin to realize that sin is in you, and you turn your back on it in every shape and form. You renounce the world, whatever the cost, and you deny yourself and take up the cross and go after Christ.

[Todd Friel]

It's time for Wretched Radio with Todd Friel.

Hello and welcome to Wretched. My name is Todd Friel, your host and wretch the song refers to. If you want to be upset, all you need to do is watch Fox News. But if you would like to be upsetting, then you've come to the right place. Oh, the difference A gerund makes a book. Hot off the press. Upsetting the world. Talk about Providence. The author of the book is sitting right here. This is Dr. John Kratz. He is a fellow with Fortis Institute. And this is basically your sermon, isn't it?

[Dr. John Kratz]

Yes,

[Todd Friel]

if people didn't think pastors cheat. You took your sermon and turned it into a book. Well, that's smart, actually. How many hours do you spend preparing a sermon?

[Dr. John Kratz]

About 12.

[Todd Friel]

Okay, so you pour it into a sermon and then you translate it into a very helpful book on upsetting the world. So this means finding liberals and telling them about the fair tax. Did I read this right?

[Dr. John Kratz]

You need to read a little more closely, I think.

[Todd Friel]

Okay, so why do we want to upset people? What is the point of this book?

[Dr. John Kratz]

Well, in Acts 17, the early church was said to be upsetting the world. Those that upset the world have come here also. And we're just trying to make an impact for Christ. And as we share the great news about Jesus, sometimes people get upset.

[Todd Friel]

They really do. I have noticed, though, on the university campuses, younger generation doesn't get nearly as upset as they once did. I find older generations, they get upset when you share law, gospel, repentance, faith. But the kids, the whippersnappers on the campuses, they don't get upset. They're actually rather intrigued. That's my experience, and I've heard that from others. Nevertheless, the gospel actually should upset people. In what way?

[Dr. John Kratz]

Well, obviously, if you are not responsive to the gospel, you have to hear the bad news before the good news makes sense. And the bad news is that we're sinners and we deserve the wrath of God and of Course, many people don't like that at all. But in the sense of it turns your whole world upside down as well. I mean, you were headed this way and Jesus says to follow me. And it's a U turn, it's going the other way. And so in multiple senses, you could see where the title of upsetting the world could work.

[Todd Friel]

And that's exactly what Paul was successful doing. Going into a town. Usually there were Jewish believers because as you follow in Acts 17 in Thessalonica, his pattern was to go to the synagogue, find the Jewish people there, and witness to them from the Scriptures. What were the Scriptures that Paul used? Was it Matthew, Luke, which was his favorite that he used?

[Dr. John Kratz]

I'm sure he would have begun with the Old Testament scrolls right there.

[Todd Friel]

So he preached Jesus from the Old Testament. Where might he have found him?

[Dr. John Kratz]

Oh, boy. Well, I'm getting close to a study at our church and we're in the later part of isaiah. Wow. Isaiah 53. If you didn't know better, you'd think you were reading the New Testament. It's so clearly pointing to the Messiah to come.

[Todd Friel]

Have you seen those videos? I don't know who they are, but they go to Israel or they live in Jerusalem and they ask Jewish people to read Isaiah 53 without letting them know what it is. And then they ask them, so where do you think that comes from? And they will say the New Testament, Right? No, Yeah, I think he probably quoted the Old Testament. He no doubt used the law to bring about the knowledge of sin. Any of the typology he could have used? Certainly the themes.

[Dr. John Kratz]

Yeah. The pictures. The pictures all point to Christ. Like John the Baptist said, behold the Lamb of God. God who takes away the sin of the world. So all of the pictures that were in the Old Covenant era pointed forward to Christ.

[Todd Friel]

So he probably dipped into those to reason with them. From the Scriptures. The word reason is a fascinating one. Did you do a word study on reason from the Scriptures to De Allegomi? It's not a chat. It's not like, yay, you need to repent. It's not that, but it's more forceful than just sharing your story. It's, you know, trying to push somebody from point A to point B in a progressive way. So he wasn't kind of a laid back. He was a little more forward without being obnoxious.

[Dr. John Kratz]

Yeah, I think intentional. He was very intentional with his conversations.

[Todd Friel]

All right. My favorite part is when you give examples of ways that we can upset the world where we can find a place to Go witness. And I'm reading, John. I'm reading. And it's like, he did not go to a liberal church. He did not. And he brought his wife. And you went to a Bible study.

[Dr. John Kratz]

Oh, it was a Sunday school class.

[Todd Friel]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Kratz]

And we picked one that seemed like it would have a possible opportunity to interact.

[Todd Friel]

Okay.

[Dr. John Kratz]

And it was an amazing experience because they were just so lost. And you would hear good. Good things said, bad things said. A couple of times my wife kicked me under the. You know, just stay, you know, calm down. Yes. But at the end of the class, I asked if I could say something. Of course. In that liberal, progressive situation. Oh, John, you're welcome. You're one of us. Please share. And I just was able to kind of pull themes that we had talked about together and point them to Christ. And then they said, well, that's wonderful. And now we're done. Let's all close in prayer and get in a circle and hold hands.

[Todd Friel]

Oh, boy.

[Dr. John Kratz]

Oh, John, would you pray? Okay. So I prayed the gospel again. Right. I had three different people after the class come up and ask if I would move to that area and plant a church. They didn't even know I was a pastor. This was in another state, but it was uncanny, the hunger. These were people coming to church on a Sunday morning.

[Todd Friel]

So lost and didn't know what they were missing. No, but you went into a liberal church to find some. You went into the synagogue,

[Dr. John Kratz]

kind of like our version of the synagogue.

[Todd Friel]

Man, I wish. Why didn't you take some video of that? That would have gone viral. And that's what it's all about. It's my contention, depending on the demographic, there are still some people. It's really hard, but there are a lot of places where we can go and find people willing to talk. I think universities are currently the sweetest places to go do that. The kids want to at least hear, and if nothing else, they just want an adult to pay attention to them. So I find that's a good place to upset the world. You, however, invade liberal church Sunday schools. Is that the only time you've done that?

[Dr. John Kratz]

I did it that time, yeah. I have some friends that have done it regularly and they said that in their experience, within four weeks they've been asked to teach the class.

[Todd Friel]

Really?

[Dr. John Kratz]

Every time now?

[Todd Friel]

Really?

[Dr. John Kratz]

I think it would be difficult to do in your own town. That's why we did it when we were on vacation in another state. If you're the known pastor of Faith Bible Church down the road, it could be a little awkward.

[Todd Friel]

To show up in these days in Atlanta, nobody lives here for more than like six months.

[Dr. John Kratz]

It's a very transient place.

[Todd Friel]

It is a transient place, but they get invited to teach the Sunday school. It's because people hear something different.

[Dr. John Kratz]

That's right. Well, I think of the Lord after the sermon on the mount where the people said, he's speaking with authority. This is different. This is not like the scribes and Pharisees were used to. And when people hear the life of the reality of the message of Jesus, when they're used to just hearing maybe some feel good.

[Todd Friel]

Well, probably social gospel.

[Dr. John Kratz]

Yes.

[Todd Friel]

Which is no gospel at all. It's just law, really.

[Dr. John Kratz]

Go keep working.

[Todd Friel]

Go dig a well, go do stuff. Was just in an Uber and ask the Uber driver, how do you plan on getting to heaven? Well, loving my neighbor and hoping the balance sheet is weighed out. And I focused actually on loving your neighbor because that's a law. It sounds nice, but it's a law. And these people that are in liberal churches are just weighed down by it. Okay, so that's one place you go. Another place that you mentioned in your book, upsetting the world. Bookstores. Yes, libraries. What do you do there?

[Dr. John Kratz]

Well, there used to be Christian bookstores that you.

[Todd Friel]

They're gone.

[Dr. John Kratz]

They're almost all gone.

[Todd Friel]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Kratz]

Oh, but that's sad.

[Todd Friel]

I know why you would go there because there are a lot of people who didn't really know much to go to Christian stores.

Right?

[Dr. John Kratz]

No, no, that's absolutely true. That was actually my job growing up. You know, some guys through newspapers. I worked in a Christian bookstore. So I got to interact with a lot of people in Christian bookstores. But now the religious sections in some of the larger bookstores, like Barnes and Noble or others, they have a pretty good sized religious section. Well, people, I mean, there are good books in those sections, but how would you know? Because they're surrounded by terrible books and people are picking and choosing. And of course, the workers are usually nowhere to be seen. So you just kind of hang out a little bit there and it is not hard to strike up a conversation. Now, here in the south, one of the things we deal with is so many people think that they're Christians because of the traditional church background or that kind, or parents or grandparents.

[Todd Friel]

We will continue with our very special guest, Dr. John Kratz, pastoring for 65 years now.

[Dr. John Kratz]

Almost 30.

[Todd Friel]

Almost 30 years. Same church.

[Dr. John Kratz]

Yes.

[Todd Friel]

In Sharpsburg, Georgia. By God's grace, well done, sir. We'll continue upsetting the world next on Wretched.

[Fortis Institute Announcer]

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[Todd Friel]

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[Fortis Institute Announcer]

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[Todd Friel]

Books of the Bible Nahum, whose name means the Lord comforts, brought a message of comfort to God's people and a prophecy against Nineveh. Nineveh was a powerful city, but they were no match for God. He punished them severely for their wickedness. When you see evil or are tempted towards evil, remember that there are only two possible outcomes, repentance or destruction. This is Wretched Radio with Todd Friel.

Welcome back to Wretched. The question is not should you upset the world? But where exactly can you go about doing that? Dr. Jon Kratz, your book Tidy Easy, Ba boom Ba ba. You've got it, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Which if you could have maybe had some pictures and connect the dots, that would make it even better for me. But nevertheless, just a helpful little guide. You know, I've actually discovered in the south at least, almost everybody goes to church. And I think one of the most innocuous questions is, okay, so you're, oh, you're from the south, so you went to church as a kid. Where'd you go? You're there because I. Do you agree that the hardest part, typically for me, the witness encounter is going from, so how's about the Atlanta Braves? Do you know the Lord Jesus Christ? You know, how do you get there?

[Dr. John Kratz]

The gospel pivot.

[Todd Friel]

The gospel, yes, the gospel pivot, absolutely. But in the South, I don't find it to go to California, it's hard. Minnesota, it's hard because people will actually get upset with you. But not in the South. So basically we're without excuse.

[Dr. John Kratz]

That's absolutely true.

[Todd Friel]

All right, so bookstores, libraries, you've also gone when sometimes a prosperity preacher is in town, people who are going to have their ears tickled. You are one of those people out on the sidewalk. I would have never guessed that they're

[Dr. John Kratz]

actually paying money to go see some of these guys become more prosperous. But anyway, it's quite amazing that, again, the people getting off of the subway, they're right downtown Atlanta to hear the big famous prosperity preacher. They're certainly in the mindset of religious things and hearing their famous favorite preacher. And it just worked really well to ask some questions, to engage them. Just as you didn't have Very long. They're making their way in. But once again, it's so sobering how lost they are.

[Todd Friel]

Yeah. You know the only downside that I see to that kind of evangelism, though, okay, so you go to the big auditorium probably in downtown Atlanta for this, but your church isn't a commute and you can't send those people to your church. And believe me, I do it. I go to the campus. But that's the one grievous part. It's like God, now that we've witnessed to you, we want to get you into a church. All right? You've been pastoring for 30 years. In your experience, your standard evangelical. Do they love the local church?

[Dr. John Kratz]

No. I think a lot of people think that they can be Christians without the church or have a real consumer mindset toward the church where you can pick and choose what you like or what your kids like or something else, some other reason. But in terms of really understanding what a healthy church is and loving it and engaging with the church, I think that's actually more rare than we would like to think.

[Todd Friel]

Okay, so why should people not just attend love the local church? What is there to love with all of those people? They're so annoying there.

[Dr. John Kratz]

Well, if you join in, you're just adding to the number, right? We're just forgiven sin sinners, but we're connected. We should love the church because the Lord loves the church. And Christ God called the church his very household, his flock. We are his people. And he didn't make us to live the Christian life alone. He made us to live in a network of like minded fellow believers helping each other out. Christianity is a team sport, right? So if you were playing football or a team sport, like football or baseball, and you just wanted to do it all by yourself, no matter how good you were, it wouldn't work.

[Todd Friel]

That's actually not a terrible illustration.

[Dr. John Kratz]

Thanks.

[Todd Friel]

It's not. I mean, okay, I've got a football. I don't want to be with those other people because they agitate me. Sometimes they fumble. So what do I. I hike the ball to myself, throw the ball and run down the field and catch it while I'm blocking it. You just can't do it.

[Dr. John Kratz]

No matter how good you are.

[Todd Friel]

No matter how good you are. And I think that most people have probably been burned to some degree for different reasons. It could be of their own making, or it could have just been some bad Christians did some bad things. What would you say to those folks to help them overcome their aversion to Getting plugged into a local church.

[Dr. John Kratz]

Well, obviously that's going to be person to person, depending on the situation. I might say different things, but I think about the churches in Revelation 2 and 3. So you ever wonder what Jesus would think about your church? Well, those were seven real life churches in the first century, and those messages were straight from Jesus to those churches. Some of those churches were bad. They were very bad. Jesus had some very strong things to say about them. You've got Jezebel in your church, but you also have some good people. And to me, one of the big takeaways is the Lord expects us to be in church, even if it's not a great church, even if we've got some bad apples, because it is his bride, it is the team he wants us to play for.

[Todd Friel]

There's gonna be tears.

[Dr. John Kratz]

That's right.

[Todd Friel]

The best of church has tears. So we should really anticipate. I think it's almost like marriage being a school of character. There are annoying people at church. And I always have to remember, whenever there's somebody who annoys me, it's like, you know what? I probably annoy them because if I think they're, like, strange or not quite in the style that I'd like to my lifestyle, they're thinking the exact same thing about me.

[Dr. John Kratz]

Right.

[Todd Friel]

And that's the point.

[Dr. John Kratz]

Yes.

[Todd Friel]

We get together and learn how to love one another.

[Dr. John Kratz]

That's right. That's right. Have you ever thought about the weaker brother principle? Some of those areas that the Bible doesn't spell out? Well, if God wanted to, he could have written a lot bigger book and told us everything. I actually think God intentionally gave us some of those areas so that we will have to love each other in, even though we're different and come to different conclusions.

[Todd Friel]

I love it when people say, you know, the church, first of all, it's not a building. John. You've heard that. But I just want to do it at home, like the first century. And they've got this ideal of the first century church. And it's like, I don't think I wanted to go to the first church of Corinth.

[Dr. John Kratz]

Right, right.

[Todd Friel]

It was not the ideal. Church is always messy.

[Dr. John Kratz]

That's right.

[Todd Friel]

But I think that's by design.

[Dr. John Kratz]

Yes. Yeah. We're like. I was thinking of a book written, called a marriage book. What did you expect?

[Todd Friel]

Oh, right.

[Dr. John Kratz]

You're a sinner.

[Todd Friel]

Who wrote that?

[Dr. John Kratz]

Paul Tripp? You're a sinner. You're married to a sinner. You live in a fallen world. What did you Expect.

[Todd Friel]

Exactly.

[Dr. John Kratz]

And in the same way. Okay, church is the plan. But what did you expect? We're all works in progress and helping each other to grow, learning how to love older, younger, all together. If everybody was exactly the same, how many of us would even be necessary? We need each other to be stretched and sharpened.

[Todd Friel]

John, I said that there's about a hundred reasons the church is a safe place. But what might be our reason that people should be in church for the sake of their safety?

[Dr. John Kratz]

Well, just to be under the regular preaching of God's word is going to be safe because that's going to help us to learn more about God and his character. It's going to be applied to us and convicting us, helping us to be the men and women that the Lord wants us to be.

[Todd Friel]

All right, my turn. I think about the woman who's struggling with a husband who's not. He's not cherishing his bride and he's kind of scary even. Where is a woman to go? Her elders in the local church. But if you're not a member of a local church, you really shouldn't anticipate that group to be helping you when you're not underneath their authority.

[Dr. John Kratz]

That's right.

[Todd Friel]

And I've seen that many times. Prodigal kids, when you're discouraged, other people can see you and maybe point out some things that are actually happening in your life that are really good things. There are so many benefits to the local church. All right, what would be another benefit of being in a local church?

[Dr. John Kratz]

Well, I think a lot of churches, good, bad and ugly, you can kind of make work when everything in your life is going well, but when the wheels fall off, when the hard things come, you even already gave some examples of that. You need to be surrounded by people who are godly and have a deep walk with the Lord. And so being in a healthy church is gonna be a vital thing for you during the most difficult times of your life.

[Todd Friel]

If you get goofy theologically, they can rescue. If you start falling into. No, you start diving into sin, uh oh, your church is gonna rescue you. Cause you're not spiritually safe alone. I think of the loneliness epidemic that is so prevalent. Well, okay, they might get up your nose a little bit, but you won't be lonely in a local church because that's God's people assembly. I've just seen over the years that people aren't safe in their walk. They're vulnerable to worldly teachings, false teachers coming along, not being able to sort through family. It's just in other words, we should be loving your church.

[Dr. John Kratz]

Absolutely.

[Todd Friel]

Dr. John Kratz will help you. If you do not love your local church, please find the best one you can. It's not going to be perfect. Find the best one you can, join it and see for yourself. You'll love it. Next on Wretched.

[Fortis Institute Announcer]

And it's now time for your daily Fortis News Breaker production of Fortis Institute. We start in Birmingham, England, where video is going viral of a female police officer wrestling a young man into a squad car. Except he's the victim, not the criminal. Bystanders can be heard on the video telling officers this same man had just been shoved to the ground and punched in the back of the head by three attackers. Police ignored those attackers, cuffed this young man and dragged him off while he was still recovering from the assault. When the footage blew up, Birmingham police defended the officer, saying she'd simply stopped a group of men fighting. Meanwhile, the University of California, Santa Cruz has drafted teaching materials for public school

kids that put the January 6 Capitol

riot in the same breath as the KKK rally from a century ago, materials which have been flagged by the watchdog group Defending Education. Ask students to compare the two side by side. Never mind that the KKK murdered thousands of black Americans to enforce white supremacy, while January 6th was a protest over a contested election that had nothing to do with race. That's what happens when a curriculum starts with its conclusion and just works backwards to find examples to try to fit that. And in Michigan, a Senate race Democrats desperately need need to win just got messy. State Senator Mallory McMorrow recently dropped out of the primary, clearing the field for a two person fight between establishment pick Haley Stevens and the Progressive favorite Abdul El Saeed, who's backed by Bernie Sanders and AOC McMorrow had cast herself as the moderate alternative to both. Now that she's out, Michigan's attorney general has endorsed Stevens and the party establishment is racing to unite before the socialist wing grabs the nomination. Whoever wins takes on the Republican Mike Rogers in November. Speaking of loyalties, Arizona's Attorney General Chris Mays wanted everyone to know that during the World cup, she wasn't cheering for the United States. She was actually cheering for Mexico. Now she's essentially the top law enforcement officer in an American state rooting against her own country. Presumably to quote court voters who feel the same way. At some point, these are the things we need to stop being surprised by because it's not a slip of the tongue, it's a worldview. Now for some rare good news. The YMCA has quietly dropped its National Gender Identity Pledge after the American Parents Coalition sounded the alarm that summer camps weren't separating kids by biological sex in cabins, locker rooms and showers. One Minnesota branch wouldn't even tell parents ahead of time time if a boy was placed in their daughter's cabin. Once parents started asking questions, the policy quickly vanished. And that wraps up today's Fortis News Break. I'm Jimmy Hicks. If you want more, you can download Fortis plus or sign up to become a Fortis Insider for exclusive daily content. Both can be [e-mail] and don't forget, you can subscribe to Fortis News on your favorite podcast app in order to get these updates daily. And until tomorrow, go serve your king.

[Todd Friel]

Important dates in Christian history Henry VIII's act of Supremacy makes the king, not the Pope, head of the Church of England. While Henry's concerns were largely political, his archbishop, Thomas Cranmer, worked to mould the Anglican Church into a thoroughly Protestant church. This is Wretched Radio with Todd Friel.

Hello and welcome to Wretched. My name is Todd Friel, your host and wretch the song refers to. We would like to do something that will probably shock you. We are going to do impromptu Wretched, and you're probably saying Friel. Since when do you ever organize anything? Okay, you're right. Nevertheless, Dr. John Kratz joining us in studio. The last time he was with us, we talked about his book Loving youg Church. And John, I was gonna move on, but then you started talking about the local church again because you've been pastoring in Sharpsburg, Georgia for 30 years, same church. There's some stuff about the local church we gots to talk about. All right. So by the way, if I could, for any pastor who's watching, what are the benefits of staying in the same church for 30 years?

[Dr. John Kratz]

Well, first, it's God's grace and mercy that you can stay at the same church for so long in so many ways. But you really get to know people in a deep way. In some sense. It doesn't even get good until after about year seven, really. And then you really just have the depth of trust and relationship. You've been through things. They've seen you at your best, they've seen you at your worst. They've seen you be humble about your failures and, and there's just a love and trust and that goes so long. And you've got the credibility to basically preach the hard things and have it well received by people who know you

[Todd Friel]

love Them, you know, especially with church planting that church plants can take 30 years because the church really doesn't have its roots until the next generation comes up inside of the church. And there are some men who have stuck around that long to receive the benefits. I even find going to the same watering hole for evangelism week after week, year after year has huge benefits. Because just like in church, the kids start to see you regularly and they okay, you're not a one offer, you actually care. And that has benefits to attracts them. Definitely. All right, so staying at a local church because is there a push inside of evangelical circles that pressure to you're at this church, but you gotta be at this church, you gotta be at this church until you're the king of the hill. Is that a pressure for pastors?

[Dr. John Kratz]

I think sometimes. And looking for the next best opportunity bigger. And you can probably think I don't even want to judge motives. You know, sometimes it's. You just want to be in a different place for different reasons and that's okay. God, God uses it all and it all has trade offs, I suppose.

[Todd Friel]

Right.

[Dr. John Kratz]

But there's some wonderful benefits in staying put.

[Todd Friel]

Right? Yeah. But not to be motivated by bigger. Bigger ain't better.

[Dr. John Kratz]

That's right.

[Todd Friel]

Deeper is better.

Healthy.

[Dr. John Kratz]

Yeah. Getting to the. I appreciate what one pastor said. He said a healthy church, every healthy church is its own size. Like you just want it to be as healthy as it can be and it'll be the size that it should be.

[Todd Friel]

Right? Yeah. I just heard a pastor say, shepherd the sheep the Lord has given to you, not the sheep you wish they were right. Those sheep right there. Take tend of those. All right. The reason we're going off script, because I want to talk about this book that you've written, Living confidently in God but the local church loving the church. You mentioned to me that you had a little bit of. I don't know about ulterior motive, but one of the points you wanted to make in this book was for whom?

[Dr. John Kratz]

Well, I just think there was a movement where people were wanting to shape the church around their family. Like it's I think a good, well intended fathers leading their homes and leading their kids. And yet they might have taken it to a little bit further and to say, okay, because I'm responsible to teach my kids the Bible. Therefore Sunday school is bad. I don't want anybody else because then I would be abdicating my responsibility. Youth groups are bad. And of course there's many examples where they're just fun and games and not Teaching the word of God, but to just swipe them all away and say, this is the only way seemed to be a little extreme. So instead of taking that on, I went ahead and went kind of around it and said, how about I write a book about what a healthy church is and why you should love the church and how your family can thrive within a healthy church?

[Todd Friel]

All right, so you're not saying it, but I will. It sounds like what you're describing is the family integrated church model. Okay. I see some good things in that, definitely. And personally, at our church, if we encourage parents, bring the kids in, and then we have to grow in patience when the kid squawks and the parent needs to learn how to get their kid under control.

[Dr. John Kratz]

That's right.

[Todd Friel]

So they're not being a thorn in everybody's flesh. But we don't make it a law, and we don't insist on it being that way. And as far as, like, classes and breakaways, I think it's ideal when it's intergenerational.

[Dr. John Kratz]

Mm.

[Todd Friel]

But we don't. You can't make a law where there is no law.

[Dr. John Kratz]

That's true. Or you shouldn't.

[Todd Friel]

You shouldn't. But I've seen that too. Look, I do have great sympathies for the family integrated, and there's a lot of believers in a lot of churches. It's working really great for them. But to try to make your thing, everybody else's thing is not a great way to approach church.

[Dr. John Kratz]

Right. And I'm so thankful to God for the godly men and women who have had impact put into my children's lives. I am grateful that they have other voices besides me pointing them to the Lord, pointing them to the Scriptures. I don't consider that an abdication of my responsibility, but using the whole body

[Todd Friel]

to see John, I think it's needed these days. Because my observation is that young people are getting so bombarded with external messages that are anti parents, anti Christian, anti Jesus, that they need other adults to be saying the same thing their parents are. And I would even encourage parents be speaking into the lives of other parents, kids, on behalf of the parents, because nobody in the world is saying a good word about parents, and we should be saying it about one another.

[Dr. John Kratz]

Absolutely.

[Todd Friel]

So I think the integration from that standpoint, I agree with you. And that's why I just don't think you can make a law.

[Dr. John Kratz]

That's right.

[Todd Friel]

Where there is no law.

[Dr. John Kratz]

No. I know some of the leaders in the family integrated church movement. Great brothers, and thankful to The Lord for their churches. And, yeah, I think there's just maybe been some overstatements and some sweeping.

[Todd Friel]

But it's not just them. It's other movements, like your church culture. Perhaps you are a part of a church that has a movement or desires or goals that have permeated and have become the expectation of everybody in the church. If that sounds a bit cryptic, we were talking about the family integrated movement, that there are some churches where people attempt to make that the culture for the entire congregation. But I've seen that with many other good things. Adoption, You've got to adopt kids. That we're an adopting church. And look, praise God for all of it.

[Dr. John Kratz]

Absolutely.

[Todd Friel]

But to insist then that everybody starts adopting because that's what we do here, that's just taking it a step further. Homeschooling. We love homeschooling. But to mandate that everybody in the church does homeschooling is to take a good thing too far. What do you say to those folks who are inclined to bring their passions into the church, which is good. Bring them in, but don't make it everybody's passion.

[Dr. John Kratz]

Everybody's everything. Yeah. I think the issue is to be strong where the Bible's strong and soft where the Bible's soft. So the Bible is very strong about parents taking responsibility for the education of their children, but it's soft in the way that that's applied. And so different families come to different conclusions. But if we're strong where the Bible's soft and say, this is the way. This is the only way that it can be done, I think that ends

[Todd Friel]

up causing problems inside of a church.

[Dr. John Kratz]

Absolutely.

[Todd Friel]

Another way that I've seen this manifest itself is a cause. I'm pro life, so you need to be as pro Life as I am and do all of the pro Life things that I do. And we should only be supporting pro Life ministries. And people might hear that and go, wait a second. Aren't you all about pro Life? Yes, we are. I am.

[Dr. John Kratz]

Absolutely.

[Todd Friel]

But if I try to make my thing your thing, then you don't get to do your thing and another part of the body doesn't get served.

[Dr. John Kratz]

That's right. Yeah. I think when I think about the Great Commission, it's not our job to do all of the Great Commission as faith Bible church. Our job is to do our little bit, and your church does your bit, and we all do our bit together.

[Todd Friel]

There are people that are causing a great deal of grief for their pastors by insisting on talking about their issues at their volume and it's causing a lot of problem. And there's one, I think, rule that could perhaps tone down the dialogue. Keep churches from dividing and keep you from being agitated with your pastor and your pastor from being agitated with you. Next on Wretched

[Fortis Institute Announcer]

Trust. The science. You've heard it a million times, usually right before someone uses it to shut a conversation down instead of open one up. But science is a tool. It's not a judge. And like any tool, it depends on who's holding it and what they already believe. Two scientists can look at the exact same data and walk away with opposite conclusions because each one brought a different worldview to the table. Science also leans on a few things it can't prove that the universe stays orderly and that our minds can actually grasp truth. Both make the most sense of a rational God made it all.

You take him out of the picture

and you're left trusting that chaos somehow adds up. That's where in the beginning with Dr. Jason Lyle comes in. He's a Ph.D. astronaut, astrophysicist. He'll teach you to read the science headlines without getting played. New episodes of in the Beginning are dropped every single Wednesday on every single podcast platform in existence [e-mail] Look, I'm going to be straight with you. Every man knows what it's like to fight a battle no one else can see. You wake up. You're determined that today is going to be different this time. You're going to be stronger than the temptation. But then evening comes, and there you are again, right back where you started. You're making promises to yourself that you already know deep down that you're not going to keep tomorrow. Here's what no one wants to admit. You can't win this fight with willpower. Trust me, if determination alone could break the chains of lust and sin, you would already be free. You've probably figured that out by now. The filters, the accountability apps, the promises to your wife or to yourself, they're just being band aids on a wound that needs surgery. Real freedom, the kind that actually lasts. It only comes when Christ changes you from the inside out. Not just your habits, but your actual heart. That's what Todd Friel gets into very deeply with his resource Play the Man. It's available right now as an ebook, an audiobook, and video series [e-mail] thanks for listening to Wretched Radio today. Look, here's something thing that I've noticed, and maybe you have, too, but it's really easy for us to treat our faith sometimes like a category, as Sunday

is Sunday, work is work, parenting is

parenting, and somewhere in there you try to be a Christian, but it doesn't always feel like it's all connected. That's why Dr. Jon Kratz and his podcast Integrated is so incredibly important. Dr. Kratz is a pastor, he's an author, he's a biblical counselor, and he's a Fortis Institute fellow and the host of Integrated. And he is helping people see how scripture speaks to everybody part of their life. Not just the spiritual stuff, but the practical, everyday, how do I actually live this stuff out stuff. And if what we're doing at Fortis Institute has been a source of encouragement for you, I want to ask you to consider joining us as an ongoing monthly gospel partner. Help us continue producing content just like Integrated that connects the dots. Go to fortisinstitute.org right now and find out how to join us. Wretched Amazing Grace Amazing Gospel.

[Todd Friel]

Revelation Special Revelation is God's act of making himself known through direct means. In history, God has spoken directly to people like Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and the prophets. Two thousand years ago, he revealed himself in the person of Jesus Christ. Today, he reveals himself in his perfect word, the Bible. This is Wretched Radio with Todd Friel.

Welcome back to Wretched. There are so many issues that have us hot under the collar and perhaps you've been tempted or perhaps you've actually brought those issues, those hot button issues for you into your church and you've insisted that the pastor be just as hot as you are. Dr. Jon Kratz, you've been pastoring for 30 years. You've agreed this is a trend regarding politics, social issues, that there are people inside and you get it. I mean, you understand these are big deals.

[Dr. John Kratz]

Yes.

[Todd Friel]

Our civilization appears to be crumbling and people are like, you gotta preach about it. How can you help us when we're feeling so hot and passionate? Not approach the pastor. Insist that he discuss my issue in a tone that I believe it should be discussed with the urgency with the immediate timing. Walk a person like me off the ledge.

[Dr. John Kratz]

Well, I would remind you that you have no idea what the pastor's going through that week. Everybody kind of comes in thinking my issue is so front and center. It ought to be front and center on everybody's mind. The pastor may have just come from a person that just lost a spouse or just found out they have cancer and he's prayed with somebody who's brokenhearted, a marriage falling apart, all these things. So you want to always approach the pastor very carefully in that way. But also you're trusting not only the pastor in a healthy church, we would understand there to other be fellow elders as well. Not just one guy, but the team of men that's called by God to shepherd that flock. And certainly we welcome input, particularly from our church members, about things they're burdened about or things. Ideas that they have. But we are seeking the Lord and we want to keep the main things, the main things for the whole flock. And usually that's going to be preaching God's word.

[Todd Friel]

Okay. But you know who. I'm the type of person that I'm thinking about, they see these social issues, they see the implications, and we affirm they are big deals. And it is their passion that they don't bring that passion to the pastor and force the pastor to be like that. But they would say in response to a guy like you who just gave the answer, you don't get it. You do not get it. Do you not see what is happening? Do you not understand the implications for religious liberty? So question number one. Do you understand the implications of these issues?

[Dr. John Kratz]

I think so. A lot of times I do.

[Todd Friel]

All right, number two, why don't all of these issues make it into this Sunday sermon?

[Dr. John Kratz]

There's so many issues in the fallen world that we need to address. And I just think if you don't have a little sense of history and stepping back and seeing the trends come and go and the threats to the church come and go, that does help you keep some perspective of just keeping the main things. The main things. I equip our people with categories of theology to build strength into them so that they can know. I'm not saying that specific issues don't ever need to be addressed, but it's more important for people to understand the pillars of doctrine.

[Todd Friel]

Okay, true. I think that a lot of people struggle with that because they perhaps just haven't considered it. And it is a little bit challenging because, you know, you watch the Fox News and your news feed, and it's like it's barking.

[Dr. John Kratz]

Yes.

[Todd Friel]

And the pastor says, well, there are some other issues. We're making our way through a particular. And I happen to know we're gonna be addressing this in six weeks because I'm that far out of the text. And you've got perhaps sheep issues that are more important and the mindset that the best way to help people with politics and social issues is through theology and the teaching of the Word.

[Dr. John Kratz]

That's right.

[Todd Friel]

And I think that some people. That's hard for them. It's like, no, you gotta talk about it. Just talk about it. But there is another approach. Teach truth and allow them to apply it.

[Dr. John Kratz]

That's right. Yeah. I mean, having a deep. Right, rich, biblical view of God is going to help everybody in their perspective about any issue. Not only the hot issue of today, but also for tomorrow and the next day.

[Todd Friel]

Right.

[Dr. John Kratz]

If I can elevate your theology, I am helping you better than you even realize.

[Todd Friel]

Okay. That I think we should all chew on that. I really do. Now, there are some pastors that are not even thinking like that, or they're just not interested in politics socially. They don't do it. But I find more guys like you who are like, I do want to address the issues, but perhaps not exactly in the way that you think that they need to be addressed.

[Dr. John Kratz]

That's right. The last time we had a big election that went badly from certain people's perspective.

[Todd Friel]

Pretty much every two years.

[Dr. John Kratz]

Yeah. I preached a sermon called When a Sovereign God Gets It Wrong. Just to be provocative, of course, but just to say, oh, wait, God wasn't caught off guard. You know, whether this happened, how a

[Todd Friel]

pastor helps the sheep deal with these things, the individual who feels that way. And I get that we all have those passions. Think about the pastor's role, his job description from the Lord. It's to feed the sheep.

[Dr. John Kratz]

That's right.

[Todd Friel]

And the pastor is the one who is best equipped to determine that diet. The local church is an issue that I think we Christians need to focus on more. Loving the church. Dr. Kratz, talking about the issues of the day. They're big deals. And you're of the mindset as a shepherd of a congregation, that the best way to help people navigate through these choppy waters is not by necessarily addressing these issues, but addressing them in a way that biblically helps them to think through and respond to. But do you think there's ever a time when a pastor should get in a pulpit and break away from preaching through Ephesians to address this piece of legislation?

[Dr. John Kratz]

Well, I don't know about a specific piece of legislation, but I definitely think there are times when everybody in the congregation is concerned about one subject. And I do think specifically applying God's word to that subject is particularly helpful. I think about times when I was in seminary at the Master seminary, when John MacArthur would get into the pulpit, when there were riots, Rodney King. Back, back. I was. I was in seminary in the early 90s, and he preached a particular message and, oh, we were so helped. The big Northridge earthquake happened. It was on everybody's mind.

[Todd Friel]

Right.

[Dr. John Kratz]

And I think that there's certainly times of crisis or national or even international headlines and that are so fixed in front of our people, we need to address it from scripture.

[Todd Friel]

You use the word need to ignore those. Almost becomes a little tone deaf.

[Dr. John Kratz]

Right? Right.

[Todd Friel]

And sticking with the principle of no, we're going to help people navigate by teaching theology, doing expository preaching that can almost be abused to a degree when there's just such a great need among the body. So you would say as a rule, just keep feeding the sheep. Past feeding the sheep. Let your pastor keep feeding the sheep the diet that he believes is right. But it is fair that a pastor should as he determines the need cause after all, he's the one who's been given that here comes the word authority to make those decisions. I think I know what is the latest push coming into congregations specifically toward pastors that they must. It's not an option. It's not their preference or their decision. They must. Do you know what I'm thinking of?

[Dr. John Kratz]

Not yet.

[Todd Friel]

Preach about politics, social issues.

[Dr. John Kratz]

Yes.

[Todd Friel]

Am I right?

[Dr. John Kratz]

We must.

[Todd Friel]

And not only must you do it, you must do it at 11. The volume of it and the intensity of it needs to be super white hot. Otherwise you're not being a good shepherd. Am I correct?

[Dr. John Kratz]

I have experienced people telling me that I must do that and I must do it this week. Don't even have a chance to think about it or process it. Why haven't you taken your stand? Things that people in our church aren't even concerned about. They want me to address it from the pulpit. I want to be a faithful shepherd and I'm looking out for the sheep that we have in our flock and what are the dangers we experience. I'm not trying to score points on

[Todd Friel]

whatever scale, but Martin Luther said that if a pastor is not identifying the big issue in culture and addressing it, well, then he is a derelict shepherd. And perhaps one of the worst things you can do for the local shepherd is to tell him how exactly to feed the sheep. Until tomorrow. Go serve your king.