Smoking Is Worse Than Abortion…Really? + If Porn Is Harmless, Why Hide It?

Summary

Podcast Summary

Episode Overview

Podcast: Wretched Radio with Todd Friel
Episode Title: Smoking Is Worse Than Abortion…Really? + If Porn Is Harmless, Why Hide It?
Date: July 8, 2026
Theme:
The episode revolves around moral confusion in contemporary society, focusing on how young people, especially college students, rank the “badness” of acts like smoking, pornography, hooking up, and abortion. The program uses on-campus interviews at Georgia Tech to illustrate shifting values, probing the students’ reasoning processes, sources of morality, and understandings of religion, while threading in biblical concepts of sin, justice, and redemption.
Tone:
Conversational, probing, sometimes humorous, but serious about underlying spiritual and ethical questions.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Changing Moral Standards: Smoking vs. Pornography vs. Abortion

• Initial Setup (00:35–02:23):
  • Todd Friel discusses Mary Eberstadt’s article from the Hoover Institution, “Is Pornography the New Tobacco?” He notes how in the 1950s, smoking was commonplace but pornography viewed as morally egregious. Now, the script has flipped; smoking is “evil” while porn is largely normalized.
  • Quote: Todd Friel: "Back in the 50s, an individual would say, tobacco, smoking fine. Pornography terrible. Today, just the opposite."

On-Campus Interviews: Ranking Moral Issues

• First Interview: Male Student 1 (03:41–05:26)

  • Questions: Smoking vs. Pornography? Smoking vs. Abortion? Smoking vs. Hooking Up?
  • Answers: Consistently claims smoking is worse—even compared to abortion or casual sex.
  • Rationale: Says smoking is worse for health but admits, morally, pornography could be worse, yet doesn’t personally feel it’s bad.
  • Memorable:
    • George Barna: "Smoking is worse than abortion. Oh, we've come a long way, baby. I'm sorry. This is just terribly depressing to me." (05:27)

• Second Interview: Female Student (06:25–10:47)

  • Smoking vs. Porn: Porn viewed as more morally wrong due to “serious connotations” of sex vs. the personal health impact of smoking.
  • Smoking vs. Abortion: Abortion “probably more” morally serious.
  • Source of Morality: Ties to family values and societal upbringing, not religion.
  • Religious Influence: Self-identified as culturally Hindu, but functionally agnostic/unsure. Believes any supreme being could be real; it's belief that "makes it true for the believer."
  • Notable Quote: "I just believe that there is a supreme being. It doesn't matter what you call him by name...it's just that there is some supreme being who at some level controls what goes around in this world." (08:49)

• Further Probing (10:49–11:11):

  • George Barna tries to get her to tell him he’s wrong when he claims a random musician is God, illustrating that beliefs have truth value regardless of sincerity.

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2. Subjective vs. Objective Truth, Religion, and Belief

• The “Truth for Me” Discussion (15:00–16:10):
  • Student claims "truth is what you believe," but Barna challenges this with Jesus’ exclusivist claims.
  • Memorable:
    • Todd Friel: "Jesus said, I am the way, the truth and the life. No other gods are true. All other gods are false." (16:33)
  • Student insists her beliefs are true for her, even if not objectively so.

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3. The Christian Gospel Presented and Contrasted

• Presentation of the Christian View (17:12–23:21):

  • Friel/Barna explains the Ten Commandments demonstrate universal guilt (“if God were to judge you, you’d be guilty”), God’s justice, and the need for redemption through Christ as substitute.
  • Gospel Summary:
    "The bad news is we deserve a bad thing. The good news is God will save us and deliver us and take us to heaven based on what Jesus Christ did." (23:21)
  • Repentance Defined:
    • “To repent means to agree with God. I'm not good, I'm bad, I've sinned. I've done wrong. I've offended you in thought, word and deed, and I'm sorry. And you turn from your sins and you put your faith, your trust in Jesus Christ as the only true God.”

• Student Response:

  • Argues this Christian narrative is similar to what's found in other religions, but Barna clarifies, “That is not what the other religions teach. But even so…”

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4. More Student Interviews: Source and Shape of Morality (29:31–39:02)

• Students Consistently Rank Smoking as Worse:
  • “Smoking isn’t a moral thing, it’s a health thing.”
  • On pornography: “I don’t think that looking at pornography is bad,” “It’s just a show.”
• Challenging the “Harmlessness” of Porn:
  • If porn is harmless, why do it privately? Would you watch it with your parents? (31:16–33:15)
    • Students express discomfort: “I would feel uncomfortable and my parents would feel even more uncomfortable.”
  • Social norms and shame: Students admit shame/discomfort comes from “social acceptance” (33:50), not moral conviction.
• Testing Students' Morality by the Ten Commandments:
  • Barna tallies up lies, theft, lust, etc., showing students are “liars, thieves, adulterers at heart” (36:31–36:52), to challenge their claims of being ‘basically good people’.
  • Students resist: “I don’t think that proves your point that I’m a bad person overall.” (37:45)
  • Notable Exchange:
    • Barna: “Do you like getting lied to?”
    • Student: “Not really.”
  • Final fallback: One student defends, “If their output is more good than bad, then I classify them as good.” (38:55)
  • Students attribute morality to “parents, society”—not religion or objective standards (34:04).
  • One student (39:09) acknowledges, “I’m happy I have a God that gives me redemption. …God wants me to be happy, right?”

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5. Debating Concepts of God and Justice (44:00–48:28)

• Does God Care About Justice?
  • How does a just God deal with unpunished evil (e.g., 100,000 unsolved murders)? Friel/Barna argues that only a God who punishes evil is truly just.
  • Students’ answers vacillate—some don’t believe in God, others believe in a “non-judgmental” or pantheistic God.
• Christian View Restated:
  • Friel insists: God’s standard is perfect, all have broken it, and deserve judgment—not for being “non-Christian” but for breaking God’s laws. (47:54)

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6. Interaction with Jehovah’s Witness Student (48:29–54:45)

• Conversation Highlights:
  • Jehovah’s Witness student agrees people are sinful, but disputes biblical teaching on hell: “nowhere in the Bible doesn’t [it] speak of a burning hell...hell is just mankind’s common grave.” (51:02)
  • Barna responds with references to biblical text about “the lake of sulfur, weeping and gnashing of teeth” (51:24).
  • They debate the deity of Jesus: JW says Jesus is “God’s son” and “Michael the Archangel” (51:43). Barna points to John’s gospel where Jesus identifies as God.
• Pascal’s Wager Adjacent Closing:
  • Barna: “If I’m wrong, what's going to happen to me when I die?”
  • JW: “You won’t be able to take part in everlasting life...you’re gone.”
    • Barna: “If I’m right, what will happen to you?”
    • JW: “...If you’re right, and I'm putting my faith in not the right Jesus, it wouldn’t matter…”
    • Barna counters: “If you’re right, nothing happens to me. But if I’m right, you’re going to hell. Agreed?”
    • JW: “Agreed.” (54:44)

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Notable Quotes & Moments With Timestamps

• “I think smoking is worse.” — Male Student 1, when asked about smoking vs. pornography (03:49)
• “Smoking is worse than abortion. Oh, we've come a long way, baby.” — George Barna (05:26)
• “I just believe that there is a supreme being. It doesn't matter what you call him by name.” — Female Student (08:49)
• “Truth is what you believe it is.” — Female Student (15:49)
• “Jesus said, I am the way, the truth and the life. No other gods are true. All other gods are false.” — George Barna (16:33)
• “We are innately bad, not good.” — Todd Friel/George Barna, summing up the biblical view of humanity (21:19)
• “The bad news is we deserve a bad thing. The good news is God will save us and deliver us and take us to heaven based on what Jesus Christ did.” (23:21)
• “If porn is harmless, why do you hide it?” — Paraphrased line of questioning about porn and privacy/shame (31:16–33:27)
• “I don’t think looking at pornography is bad.” — Male Student 3 (32:54)
• “I think that one person you can't say is basically good, but all people, I think, are basically good.” — Male Student 3, discussing morality (34:33)
• “By your own admission, you're a liar, you're a thief, you're a blasphemer, and you're an adulterer at heart. That didn't sound like a good guy to me.” — George Barna (36:46)
• “If their output is more good than bad, then I classify them as good.” — Male Student 4 (38:55)
• “My God doesn’t judge me.” — Male Student 2, explaining his spiritual views (39:39)
• “So he's an amoral God? Doesn't sound like God to me.” — George Barna (39:44)
• “Can a God be God if he doesn't care that bad things happen?” — George Barna (44:00)
• “But if mine exists, yours to be to your hell. — Oh, no, you wouldn't. You have no idea how bad it is.” — Barna debating with students about the possibility of hell (48:11–48:17)
• “Only God is good.” — Jehovah’s Witness Student, reflecting the Bible’s words (49:24)
• "Do you believe that Jesus is God? — No." — (51:33–51:40)
• “If I’m right, you’re going to hell. Agreed?” “Agreed.” — Barna and Jehovah’s Witness Student (54:44)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Topic Introduction & Theme Setup: 00:35–02:23
• First On-Campus Moral Poll: 03:41–05:26
• Second Interview (Female Student, Hindu/Agnostic): 06:25–10:47
• Discussion of Subjectivism/Truth-for-Me: 15:00–16:10
• Presentation of the Christian Gospel: 17:12–23:21
• On Pornography and Privacy: 31:16–33:27
• Morality by the Ten Commandments: 34:00–39:02
• Justice, God, and Hell Debated: 44:00–48:28
• Jehovah’s Witness Dialogue: 48:29–54:44

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Thematic Conclusions

• Moral confusion is widespread among young adults. Smoking is often ranked as “worse” than behaviors with significant moral or societal consequences. Many students see vice as “personal choice,” either amoral or judged only by health impact.
• Religious pluralism and relativism are the norm. Most students ground their morality in societal or familial values or view "truth" as subjective—true “for me.”
• Biblical witness contrasts with contemporary attitudes. Friel/Barna uses the Ten Commandments to reveal universal guilt, the seriousness of sin, and the ultimate need for redemption—explaining the distinctiveness and exclusivity of the Christian message.
• Even among self-identified Christians or the religious (Jehovah's Witnesses), essential doctrines (e.g., hell, deity of Christ) are disputed.
• The episode ends with a pointed “wager”—if Christianity is true, rejecting its claims has eternal consequences, while if false, the risks for the believer are negligible by comparison.

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Summary Table: Student Answers on Moral Issues

| Student | Smoking vs. Porn | Smoking vs. Abortion | Smoking vs. Hooking Up | Source of Morality | | ------------ | ---------------- | -------------------- | ------------------------- | ------------------------- | | Male 1 | Smoking worse | Smoking worse | Smoking worse | Personal preference | | Female (Hindu/Agnostic) | Porn worse | Abortion worse | N/A | Family values/society | | Male 2/3/4 | Smoking worse | Abortion worse | Smoking worse/hooking up worse (varies) | Parents, society; some say God |

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Final Takeaway

This episode powerfully exposes how cultural conditioning has shaped students’ sense of right and wrong, the fluidity of individual moral standards, and resistance to the notion of objective truth—while persistently pointing listeners to the Christian gospel as the standard for righteousness and the answer to humanity’s moral and spiritual need.

Transcript

[Todd Friel]

Wretched radio begins in 3, 2, 1.

[George Barna]

Now, I am not reintroducing the idea of purgatory, but on the other hand, I do believe the baby was thrown

[Jimmy Hicks]

out with the bathwater.

[George Barna]

With that came a belief, when you die, you're instantaneously and magically made perfect. The soul of someone who dies immediately goes into eternity. There is no place where you make up for your sins. There is no purgatory. In the twinkling of an eye, we shall be changed.

[Todd Friel]

It's time for Wretched Radio with Todd Friel.

[Wretched Radio Announcer]

This is Wretched Radio.

[George Barna]

It is Witness Wednesday. I am at Georgia Tech today. I am so pumped about this. I've been looking forward to this so much because there was an article that I stumbled across written by Mary Eberstadt from the Hoover Institution at Stanford University, and the title of it is, Is Pornography the New Tobacco? And she goes about making the case that back in the 50s, an individual would say, tobacco, smoking fine. Pornography terrible. Today, just the opposite. Pornography fine. Smoking very bad. And with that, the ad campaign of, well, I would suggest mostly liberal people, in going against the supposed moral evil of smoking, has done a masterful job of bringing down smoking in this country. 50% of Americans used to smoke. Do you believe that? 50% in 1950. It's down to 20% now. Why? Because it's bad to smoke. And in the meantime, back then, pornography. Yeah, Playboy was out there, I think, back then, but it was something filthy and dirty. These days, as we've heard on the campuses before, not a problem. Pornography, hey, it's a private act. No worries. So today what we'd like to do is challenge people to have them think through which is the most morally evil thing. Is it pornography? Is it smoking? Is it abortion? Is it hooking up? Which, by the way, if you're not familiar with the term, it's like one night stand taken to a whole new level. You don't know the person, you don't even talk to the person. You just hook up and then be on your way.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Wow.

[George Barna]

I got to tell you something. That's a conscience that has got to be pretty seared. If that doesn't trouble you, the morning after, we are going to try to challenge them to come up with the list, the order of morality. So let's see if we can maybe get to their conscience a little bit and help them understand a moral order and that maybe while smoking, not saying it's a sin, I've always just said it's stupid. Can we get them to admit that abortion is worse? Can we get them to admit that pornography is worse? Can we get them to admit that hooking up is worse? We'll see. Alright, I am at my favorite fishing hole and there's a guy sitting here eating a big who? It's a Mexican thing. And I'll see if he'll answer my question for me.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Hey sir, could I ask you a

[George Barna]

quick question while you're eating your. Oh, it's a potato is what it is. All right, all right, I'll let you swallow. I'm just gonna ask. I'm ask you a question. By the way, dude, you need some sunblock. You're getting baked.

[Male Student 1]

Really?

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[George Barna]

You're looking a little red. Or do you always look that way?

[Male Student 1]

No, maybe I do.

[George Barna]

No, you're looking like you got a little sun.

[Male Student 1]

Oh, then you should go inside then.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Alrigh.

[George Barna]

Well, maybe sunblock, maybe that. Alright, here's my question for you. I would like to have you answer for me which you think is the worst thing. I'm going to give you a couple of options and you tell me which one you think is worse.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

All right?

[George Barna]

All right, here we go. Is smoking worse or watching pornography worse? Which one?

[Male Student 1]

I think smoking is worse.

[George Barna]

Smoking is worse. All right, let's try another one.

[Male Student 1]

Depends on what your consideration of bad is.

[George Barna]

Well, bad.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Not good.

[George Barna]

Morally. Morally wrong?

[Male Student 1]

Well, morally I think watching pornography. But if it comes to health, then I guess smoking is love based.

[George Barna]

Okay, all right, so in your personal life, which one would you like to do the least? Smoke or watch pornography?

[Male Student 1]

Smoke.

[George Barna]

Really? All right, how's about smoking versus abortion?

[Male Student 1]

Smoke.

[George Barna]

Smoking is worse than abortion.

[Male Student 1]

Yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Are you familiar with the term hooking up?

[George Barna]

Do you know what that is?

[Male Student 1]

I guess so, yeah.

[George Barna]

That's apparently what college students do these days a lot. They just meet a complete stranger, intimate with one another, then go their separate ways. Kind of a one night stand sort of deal.

[Male Student 2]

Yeah.

[George Barna]

Which one do you think is morally worse?

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Smoking or hooking up?

[Male Student 1]

Smoking.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Smoking again.

[Male Student 1]

Well, hang on.

[Wretched Radio Announcer]

Morally.

[Male Student 1]

Yeah. I think that from a moral point of view, I think they're both like not, like not wrong.

[George Barna]

They're not. Neither one is bad in this case.

[Male Student 1]

Like yeah, moral.

[George Barna]

So if you had to decide, okay, you've either got to hook up or smoke a cigarette, then I'd rather hook up. You'd rather hook up. All right, dude, hey, put some sunblock on. I mean it. All right, you're getting baked. It's getting a little toasty out here. Okay, I am going to right now, walk over to a quiet Place,

[Interviewer/Assistant]

sit

[George Barna]

down kind of squatting style, put my thumb in my mouth and cry. Smoking is worse than abortion. Oh, we've come a long way, baby. I'm sorry. This is just terribly depressing to me. Let's try another pollster. This is. This is George Barna reporting from Georgia Tech.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Excuse me.

[George Barna]

Hey, I know you're busy studying, so I'll make this very quick.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

I want to ask you a question on the radio, if that's okay.

[Male Student 3]

All right.

[George Barna]

You're studying eecs. What is this? Eecs? Looks horrible to me. I don't understand any of this. You've got a different type of brain than I do.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

I would like to ask you a philosophical moral question.

[George Barna]

Which do you think is morally worse, Smoking or viewing pornography?

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Which one do you think is worse?

[Female Student]

Well, honestly, I think viewing pornography would be morally worse because morally, the idea of reproduction or even doing sex as anything more than, say, a form of entertainment. I mean, for anybody else, sex is something more than just entertainment. It's something more serious. There are more serious connotations to it. Smoking is something. Is probably something you would do, which would be bad for you on a personal level. It may be bad for you, around you, but I do not really think it affects somebody's moral character as such.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Interesting.

[George Barna]

What about the difference between smoking and abortion? Which do you think is morally worse?

[Female Student]

Again, I think I would say abortion is probably more.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Now, may I ask you.

[George Barna]

You were pretty clear in your decision making. What informed those decisions?

[Female Student]

I guess it's a lot to do with my upbringing and the ideals that were instilled in me when I grew up.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

What ideals are those?

[Female Student]

I guess I believe that it's wrong to kill a human being.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

But are the religious morals. Where did you just.

[George Barna]

Family values.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Where did you get those?

[Female Student]

Family values and dissidents? Society I live in, it's more that than religion as such. It's more the society I lived in.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Are you a religious person?

[Female Student]

I don't know.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

You don't?

[George Barna]

You were doing so well before. What do you mean, you don't know?

[Female Student]

I don't know how you would define a religious person.

[George Barna]

Somebody who believes in a deity and maybe has some values that surround that.

[Female Student]

Yes.

[George Barna]

Then I am a follower of a divine being.

[Female Student]

Yes.

[George Barna]

What are you, may I ask?

[Female Student]

I'm a Hindu.

[George Barna]

Tell me what it means to be a Hindu.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Convert me to Hinduism.

[George Barna]

I'd love to learn.

[Female Student]

Well, I really would not do a propaganda.

[George Barna]

I'm asking you. I want you to convert me.

[Female Student]

I would probably call myself an agnostic. More than anything else.

[George Barna]

So you're a backslidden Hindu?

[Female Student]

Yeah, you could call that.

[George Barna]

Okay. How many gods are there in Hinduism, Akrar?

[Interviewer/Assistant]

I'm sorry.

[George Barna]

A million? I've heard like 300 million.

[Female Student]

A million.

[George Barna]

A million. That seems like a lot of gods.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yes, doesn't it?

[Female Student]

Yes.

[George Barna]

What do those gods do?

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Do they have power?

[Female Student]

I don't believe. I'm. I guess my beliefs are sort of different from the traditional Hindu beliefs as such. I just believe that there is a supreme being. It doesn't matter what you call him by name. It could be one of those one million God or it could be any other religion following any other deity as such. It's just that there is some supreme being who at some level controls what goes around in this world.

[George Barna]

Okay, let me challenge that. Okay. This is who I think God is. I think God is Ravi Shankar. And if I listen to his third CD eight times right before I die, I'm going to spend eternity eating curry with Ravi Shankar. That's what I believe.

[Female Student]

Okay?

[George Barna]

Am I wrong?

[Female Student]

I wouldn't say that.

[George Barna]

Come on.

[Female Student]

I wouldn't say that God isn't Ravi Shankar. I would say God is the music that he plays.

[George Barna]

What? Explain that to me.

[Female Student]

Yeah, because what is. I mean, what is a supreme being? It's somebody who makes you attain a different level. It's somebody who. It's something from where you're able to get out of yourself and go into something else. Something more. At a more elevated plane, something more divine.

[George Barna]

But how do you know it's the music? Because that elevates. Yeah, okay, but then shouldn't you say to me that I'm wrong? Ravi Shankar is not God.

[Female Student]

Ravi Shankar is not God. That's what I said.

[George Barna]

So I'm wrong.

[Female Student]

Yes.

[George Barna]

There you go. That's good. So it does matter what you believe.

[Female Student]

Okay, I didn't get that question.

[George Barna]

Well, you originally said it just doesn't matter what you believe as long as you have a faith. As long as you believe in something. It can be any of the million gods, as long as you believe it. I said, well, I think God is Ravi Shankar. Clearly, I'm wrong. So it does matter what you believe?

[Female Student]

No, I guess what I would say is that it doesn't matter what you believe because you may believe it is Ravi Shankar who is God, but it is probably not the person himself, but what he does and what is.

[George Barna]

So I'd be wrong.

[Female Student]

The thing is, you would please call me wrong.

[George Barna]

Just tell me I'm wrong.

[Jehovah's Witness Student]

Please.

[George Barna]

Come on. I won't Get.

[Male Student 4]

I won't even.

[George Barna]

Not only will I not get mad, I will rejoice. I will do a little Ravi Shankar dance in front of you. If you just say sir, you're wrong. Ravi Shankar is not God.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Come on, you can do it. It is so liberating.

[George Barna]

You have no idea how good it is.

[Female Student]

Try it. No.

[George Barna]

Will you sit tight for a minute? I've got to take a break. Deal. And I'll come back. And I want to challenge you on something else. Okay. Keep studying. You've got three minutes to get your homework done.

[Male Student 3]

Alrighty.

[George Barna]

Witness Wednesday on Red Radio.

[Libby Glossin]

Hey, thanks for listening to wretched radio today. You know, there's no shortage of voices telling women how to handle anxiety, how to navigate relationships, how to find their identity. Honestly, most of it sounds pretty good until you realize it's just self help slapped with Bible verses. That's not the same thing as biblical wisdom. And that's why we at Fortis Institute present to you the Better Way with Libby Glossin. Libby is an ACBC certified Biblical Counselor and she's not just in interested in giving you coping strategies. Libby's desire is to take you to scripture and show you what God actually says about the things you're actually walking through. And this is the kind of content our gospel partners are making possible. If the content we're producing at Fortis Institute has been meaningful to you, I want to ask you to prayerfully consider becoming an ongoing monthly gospel partner. Just go to fortisinstitute.org right now and find out what it would look like for you to be a part of getting content like the Better Way into the hands of women who need it. Wretch. It's amazing grace, amazing gospel.

[Wretched Radio Announcer]

Is it possible a Christian university can actually be ranked high when it comes to preparing students for the real world? Hat tip to Master's University? You want to send your kids someplace where they actually still teach the Bible. Not just based on a document that they maybe have in a file cabinet someplace, but they actually use the Bible there. The education at the Master's University. Not only biblical, but oh so practical courses, diplomas, degrees, they can be achieved online or of course, on their beautiful campus in Southern California. Would you like to learn more about the Master's University to prepare you or your child for the future? I encourage you to visit Masters Edu Wretched. Masters Edu Wretched.

[Libby Glossin]

You know you can love the Lord with absolutely everything in you and still go mute when somebody asks you how do you even know the Bible is true? You feel the Answer. Deep down, you just can't put it into words. The reasons go deeper than most of us were ever even shown. Skeptics know that, too. That's why they start in Genesis and then they work backward. Because if you crack the foundation, then everything built on top of it will start to wobble. But when you trace the logic and the morality and the science all the way down, you find the very same thing every single time. Reality only makes sense if the Bible is true. And Dr. Jason Lyle has spent his entire career studying the universe. And in his new series, Irrefutable Proof of Creation, he asks the hard questions about God and turns doubt into confidence. Its Irrefutable Proof of Creation is streaming right now on Fortis, with new episodes dropping every week. Download the Fortis plus app on your smartphone, your smart TV, or you can go to fortisplus.org.

[Todd Friel]

Know your church fathers. Ignatius of Antioch was a disciple of Peter and John and the Bishop of Antioch. He was arrested and sentenced to die in the Roman arena. As he prepared to go to his death, Ignatius said, let fire and cross, flocks of beasts, broken bones and dismemberment come upon me, so long as I attain to Jesus Christ. This is Wretched Radio with Todd Friel.

[George Barna]

All right, young lady. All right. I'm curious.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

The necklace that you have on, what is the symbolism of that?

[Female Student]

It's Om.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Oh, Om. Is that a mantra?

[Male Student 1]

Yes.

[George Barna]

And what does that mantra do for you?

[Female Student]

It's something that gives me a sense of peace and it helps me to focus better on what I'm doing.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

How does it do that?

[Female Student]

It's just a belief that it does it more than the fact that it actually does it.

[George Barna]

Mind over matter.

[Female Student]

Yes.

[George Barna]

Really? You're fooling yourself.

[Female Student]

No, it works. As long as it works, it doesn't matter. That's it.

[George Barna]

But you're still fooling yourself.

[Female Student]

No.

[George Barna]

Just because the end result works doesn't mean you're not fooling yourself.

[Female Student]

I don't know. I could. I cannot say that I am. Whether I'm fooling myself or not, I just know that it works.

[George Barna]

So it's true for me. It's true, yes, but it wouldn't be true for me if it doesn't work.

[Female Student]

It's for. In my opinion, you have to believe it is true for it to be true.

[George Barna]

But what if it's not true?

[Female Student]

If you believe it's true, it will be true. The idea is that no one in this world is right.

[George Barna]

Okay, I want to share with you

[Female Student]

as right as you believe Yourself to.

[Male Student 4]

No. All right.

[George Barna]

I'm going to try one on you. All right? And I'm going to see if I can convince you of something that I think is right. You said before you were trying to figure out or at least thinking about

[Interviewer/Assistant]

the whole idea of God and religion,

[George Barna]

and you're a bit of a backslidden Hindu, correct?

[Interviewer/Assistant]

All right.

[George Barna]

I happen to be a Christian.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Are you familiar with Christianity? Do you know who Jesus Christ is? Jesus said this.

[George Barna]

He said, I am the way, the

[Interviewer/Assistant]

truth and the life.

[George Barna]

No other gods are true. All other gods are false.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

I am the only one that exists. Everything else is idle and vain imagination. That is pretty severe statement. Yes.

[George Barna]

That's contrary to what you're saying.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Now let's see if what he's saying is true or not. Because I would guess right now, if I said, do you think Jesus Christ is the only God? You would say, no, but I say that he is. So one of us is right or wrong. Doesn't matter how much I believe it.

[George Barna]

I'm either right or wrong.

[Male Student 1]

Okay.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Do you know what Jesus Christ did and why? Do you have any idea?

[Female Student]

Not too much.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Basically, the story is this, that God created the world because he wanted to demonstrate something. He wanted to show his loving kindness and his mercy and his goodness. So he created people. Us, knowing that we break his laws. And his laws basically are moral perfection. One of the ways that we know the character and the nature of God is through the Ten Commandments. Are you familiar with the Ten Commandments?

[Female Student]

I have heard about it, but I don't know it in detail.

[George Barna]

The Ten Commandments, pretty universal. Things like lying, stealing, adultery, blasphemy, adultery,

[Interviewer/Assistant]

dishonoring your parents, murder things I think that we'd consider to be pretty universal. So a good way to understand what God was all about is to look at the Ten Commandments and to see how do I do if God is right and true and his laws are the Ten Commandments? How would I do if I were judged by the Ten Commandments? So I'm going to ask that of you. For instance, lying is a violation of his laws. Have you told lies in your life?

[Female Student]

Yes.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Okay. Have you ever stolen anything?

[Female Student]

No.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Have you ever dishonored your parents by not doing what you were told when you told a lie? Though that would be dishonoring to your parents because their daughter told a lie. You dishonored their name. Their name is precious. People have an impression of them through their name. And you dishonor them and their name by not being a perfect child. Okay. Have you ever taken God's name in vain? Jesus said something that's really penetrating. He said, if you just look at another human being with lust, with sexual desire, you've committed adultery in your heart. Because God goes beyond what you do. It's what you think. So I'll leave that one between you and God. If you've ever looked with lust. Okay, The Bible goes even further and says if you've ever just been to able angry at somebody, you thought they were an idiot, a terrible driver, a moron, they're waiting in line and they're

[George Barna]

holding you up and you, you just

[Interviewer/Assistant]

are mad at them, Maybe a racist thought that you've had a lower opinion of somebody because of their skin color. Any of those things God says he sees as murder of the heart. And if he judged us and he opened up the books and he knew every thought, word and deed, I presume you, like the rest of us, would be guilty before God. So if God is righteous and holy and good and perfect, and we're lawbreakers, and we haven't thanked him for our food, we haven't thanked him for the air that he's provided, our education, what should God do with us? Reward us and take us to heaven? Or punish us by sending us to a bad place called hell? What should a holy God do?

[Female Student]

I think he should teach us.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Well, if the lesson's over, the criminals have been brought before the bench of the judge, the time for learning is over. You've had your time, you've had your 20 years, your 50 years, your 70 years. You've broken the laws. You're guilty. What should a just judge do with guilty criminals?

[Female Student]

I don't think putting anyone in hell is the solution.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

It may not be the solution, but it would be the right thing to do to satisfy justice.

[Female Student]

It may be the right thing to do to satisfy justice. But I think justice in the end, as far as a holy God is from the perspective of a holy God, is to make somebody realize and change, which is probably what the entire Internet

[Interviewer/Assistant]

intention of life or well, perhaps in life. But here's the scenario. If it's true, God says it is appointed for us to die one time. We get one life, we die, we get judged. That's the day of judgment, the day of reckoning lessons are over. There's no time for change. He finds us guilty if he is good because he hates evil. I mean, we don't like to hear about women getting raped and abused and children being beaten up, people being murdered. We like the idea that justice Comes in and does what is right and punishes the lawbreaker. And that's what God must do with us. He must punish us if he is good and loving, because love means he hates sin. Now, if that's the case, we are all in very big trouble. Because nobody can say, I don't have lying lips, I don't have lustful desires. I've never been pure of heart. We are all in big trouble. And that's the human dilemma. We are innately bad, not good. And God, if He gives us what we deserve, we are in big trouble. But do you remember what I said in the beginning? I said God created the world to do what? Do you remember what I said?

[Female Student]

What to do. Essentially. Let's see how you put it. To say that this is what is bad. I mean, essentially, we were all bad. We were all.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

But to show off his goodness, he wants to demonstrate his kindness. Now, how did he do that? That's the question. We believe that God, in His goodness, instead of giving us what we deserved in his forbearance and in his kindness, he sent his son, whose name is Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is fully gone. He became a human being. And he was beaten by men, spat upon, had his beard pulled out of his face, was hit in the head with sticks, punched in the face, so disfigured you couldn't even tell he was a human being. Hung on a cross where he gasped for air until he died. The Bible says that God bruised his only son so that your sins could be forgiven. You've broken God's laws, but Jesus in His goodness paid your fine to satisfy the wrath of the Father so that all of your sins can not only be forgiven, but that you can be seen as good before a holy God. That's the Christian gospel. The bad news is we deserve a bad thing. The good news is God will save us and deliver us and take us to heaven based on what Jesus Christ did.

[George Barna]

So.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

So that for all of eternity, all of creation will look at God and say, he is an amazingly kind and good God. He should give us hell, but instead he suffered hell for us, if you will, so that we could be taken to heaven. That's the good news of the gospel. Now, the Bible says if that's true, what you need to do is repent. Have you ever heard that term before? What does it mean?

[Female Student]

You need to.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Nope, can't do that. Jesus atoned for your sins. To repent means to agree with God. I'm not good, I'm bad, I've sinned. I've done wrong. I've offended you in thought, word and deed, and I'm sorry. And you turn from your sins and you put your faith, your trust in Jesus Christ as the only true God. And then God will forgive all of your sins and grant you everlasting life. But you must repent and put your trust in him. And the reason that that makes so much sense and that he either must be the truth or he's a liar. You should figure out if this is true or not, because if it's true and you died in your sins, you'd go to hell. But God is good. And this day you've heard the good news of the gospel. And he commands you to repent and put your trust in his son and he will adopt you as his child. And all of your sins, your guilty conscience wiped away. And you'll be seen as righteous because of what Jesus did by living a perfect life that you and I couldn't live. So could I simply encourage you? Today you're on campus here and you're trying to figure out big things and where you're going in life. And you confessed that you're a bit of a backslidden Hindu. Try to figure out if the Christian gospel is true or not. Because if it's true, you could become God's child.

[Female Student]

I can tell you with reasonable confidence that this is pretty much what is said in the Hindu gospel as well as any other religion.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Here's what Jesus offers, that perhaps those other religions or gods a payment for your sins. He died for you in your place. He took the wrath that you deserve so that justice could be satisfied and God could show his kindness. Jesus did this for you. It's either true or it's false. And it doesn't matter what I think about it. It either is true or it isn't. Okay, you are a lady.

[George Barna]

Thank you very much for your time. Thanks for the chat. That is not what the other religions teach. But even so. We'll continue at Georgia Tech on Witness Wednesday at Wretched Radio.

[Jimmy Hicks]

And it's now time for your daily Fortis news break. In production of Fortis Institute. The Trump administration just cut off funding for one of Planned Parenthood's favorite loopholes. Health and Human Services has disqualified more than 50 organizations, including two Planned Parenthood affiliates, from $67 million in teen pregnancy Prevention Program money, which is the federal grant that was meant to stop teen pregnancy. But their curriculum is doing the opposite. A recent video out of Minnesota showed children proclaiming their love for Somalia, not America, during the same time that our country is turning 250 years old. Somalia is the best, one says. And another one says, we love Somalia and we don't care what you think about us. These kids have likely never set foot in Somalia, yet no one has taught them much pride in the country that took their families in. Assimilation used to be part of the deal when America took people in, but Minnesota has just stopped asking for it. Meanwhile, in High Point, North Carolina, quick thinking neighbors may have stopped a tragedy. A caller spotted a man in camouflage and body armor sitting in his truck outside a Methodist church during a Sunday service and phoned it in. Police arrested 44 year old William Milken III and found two flamethrowers, two crossbows, hundreds of rounds of ammunition and a notebook listing the addresses of other churches, schools and public buildings. He's now charged with possessing a weapon of mass destruction and police credited the congregation for speaking up. Now for his story proving the government will regulate literally anything if given the chance. Rhode island just became the first state to cap how many self checkout lanes a grocery store can run, tying it to the ratio of staffed registers and slapping a thousand dollar a day fine on stores that do not comply. The governor calls it protecting jobs and helping seniors. Grocers call it a hit to their bottom line, warning of higher prices since checkout automation is everywhere now, from hardware stores to fast food. Employees are even being encouraged to report their own employers if they don't comply. And over In Paris, a 14 year old has turned squirt gun shakedowns into a full time job, demanding €2 from tourists along a canal and soaking anyone who refuses before running off laughing. He's already been arrested twice, once for vandalism and once for theft and resisting arrest. And reportedly he bragged that jail was a nice break from France's heat wave since it had air conditioning. Finally, along the same lines in what could be in this kid's future, police in Scotland have charged a man with assault after he allegedly caught a seagull off the the street and used it, the actual bird, as a weapon against another person. He's due before a court to sort out exactly how you charge someone for that. That wraps up today's Fortis news break. I'm Jimmy Hicks. If you want more, you can download Fortis or sign up to become a Fortis Insider for exclusive daily content. Both can be [e-mail] and don't forget, you can subscribe to Fortis News on your favorite podcast app.

[Libby Glossin]

In order to get these updates Daily and until tomorrow.

[Jimmy Hicks]

Go serve your king.

[Todd Friel]

Books of the Bible. Haggai was a prophet around the time of Ezra and Nehemiah, when the efforts to rebuild the temple had stopped. Haggai encouraged the people to continue and reminded them of God's presence among them and the importance of assembling together to worship. When you consider your priorities, give careful attention to the worship of God. This is Wretched radio with Todd Friel.

[George Barna]

Guys, while you're walking, I want to ask you a quick question on the radio. Do you mind? It's a quickie.

[Wretched Radio Announcer]

All right.

[George Barna]

I want to ask you to tell me which you think is worse. All right? It's like a game show. Which one is worse? Smoking or viewing Internet pornography? Which do you think is worse? Dude, Smoking is worse. All right, young man. Smoking or Internet porn? Smoking, young man.

[Male Student 2]

Smoking.

[George Barna]

Smoking. All right, how's about this one? Smoking or hooking up? Which one's worse?

[Male Student 3]

Hooking up. With who?

[George Barna]

You know what it is, right? Yeah, I guess with whomever. But you don't know who it is. That's the whole point of hooking up. You don't know.

[Male Student 3]

You do it differently than me. I say smoking.

[George Barna]

No, I don't, but. Okay, smoking still. Alright. Smoking or hooking up, dude?

[Male Student 4]

Alcohol involved?

[George Barna]

I don't know. Just answer the question.

[Jehovah's Witness Student]

It has an effect on my hooking up.

[George Barna]

You answered the question, young man. Smoking or hooking up? Hooking up is worse?

[Male Student 2]

Yeah, I think so.

[George Barna]

Wow, you're that. You're the pure one in the lot here, is that correct? All right. Smoking or abortion, dude? Abortion is worse. Smoking or abortion?

[Male Student 3]

Abortion.

[George Barna]

Smoking or abortion? Abortion. Alright, guys, how did you make those decisions? Where did you get your morals from? Where'd your values come from, mister? Smoking.

[Male Student 3]

Smoking isn't a moral thing, it's a health thing.

[George Barna]

So that makes it worse than the moral issue looking at porn?

[Male Student 3]

I don't see that as too much of a moral issue.

[George Barna]

You don't think pornography is a moral issue? Ah, that's why you answered it that way?

[Male Student 3]

Yeah.

[George Barna]

So you don't think that looking at pornography is bad?

[Male Student 3]

No.

[George Barna]

All right, dude, do you think looking at pornography is bad in any way? Nope, young man? I don't think so. How come?

[Male Student 2]

I mean, it's that bad? I don't know. For me, it's that bad. I don't have any.

[George Barna]

No problems looking at porn. Why? Nothing wrong with it. All right. Okay, hold on a second. Let's see. Are your parents alive, young man?

[Male Student 1]

Yeah.

[George Barna]

All right, I get your parents, they go to Your dorm room. Would you watch porn with them in the room?

[Male Student 3]

No, that's a private thing.

[George Barna]

But why?

[Male Student 3]

Because usually when I watch porn, I don't have all my clothes on.

[George Barna]

Interesting. All right, let's say you are fully dressed.

[Wretched Radio Announcer]

All right.

[George Barna]

Why not have other people around? What's the problem?

[Male Student 3]

I mean, if you just had it on. Yeah, there's no problem. I mean, it's.

[George Barna]

With your parents being there.

[Male Student 3]

It's just naked people. I mean it wouldn't.

[George Barna]

You wouldn't blush in front of your parents?

[Male Student 3]

No. I mean, seriously, everyone's, you know, adult consenting. It's entertainment, it's performers.

[George Barna]

So it's just a show?

[Male Student 3]

Yeah.

[George Barna]

All right. Could we do that with murder? Actually murder somebody and just say it's, it's a show.

[Male Student 3]

Immoral. People have sex morally all the time. All right, People don't murder people morally.

[George Barna]

Do you think there's any morality ever involved in intimacy between human beings?

[Male Student 3]

Yeah, you should definitely, you know, consider other people's feelings and always, you know, try to make sure. What? That any relationship is beneficial for both people.

[George Barna]

Is bestiality wrong in your opinion?

[Male Student 3]

Oh, yeah, probably.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Why?

[Male Student 3]

I don't know.

[George Barna]

Doesn't hurt anybody.

[Male Student 3]

The animal doesn't really have a good idea of what's happening, I'm sure.

[George Barna]

Uh huh.

[Male Student 4]

Right.

[George Barna]

But where do you come up with that? Just because it's gross. Is that any. Is that a valid reason to tell somebody they can't be in a relationship with a horse?

[Male Student 3]

No. I suppose if you really wanted to be in a relationship with a horse, and you can make a strong argument that you and the horse were happier, I'd be okay with that.

[George Barna]

Alrighty. Alright, I want to check out, guys. Mom and dad come to visit you. You've got your computer on and you're looking at pornography. Not a problem. Or does it make you uncomfortable?

[Male Student 2]

I would feel uncomfortable and my parents would feel even more uncomfortable.

[Libby Glossin]

Why?

[George Barna]

If it's okay, what's the problem? I don't get it. Well, I mean, it's okay.

[Male Student 2]

Cause I mean, doesn't, you know, hurt anybody, does it?

[George Barna]

Well, I'm just asking you why you'd be uncomfortable if it's okay, if it doesn't hurt anybody, why are we a good thing?

[Male Student 2]

As you know, as my friend said.

[George Barna]

What does that mean?

[Male Student 2]

Private?

[George Barna]

Why is it private? If it's okay, why. Why do it in private?

[Male Student 2]

Because you do something sometimes that are okay but are private. Right. When you go to bathroom, it's private,

[George Barna]

but it's still okay. So there's there's some sort of shame involved because you don't want to be showing yourself nude in front of people, I presume.

[Male Student 2]

Maybe I don't walk around naked in my. In my house.

[George Barna]

Right. Or out here in public. Yeah, dude. Any shame at all with pornography, say, in front of mom and dad?

[Male Student 4]

Just because. Yeah, just the way we've accepted as a social norm.

[George Barna]

So you wouldn't want to do that?

[Male Student 4]

Yeah, because I don't think. I mean, if a hundred years ago people were doing. Everyone's doing it, I'm sure I would do it. But I think it's social acceptance.

[George Barna]

So social norms cause you to maybe feel a little shame in front of mom and dad. Sure. All right, guys, where do you get your morality from? Where do you. Where do these principles come from? How did you decide? This is what I think is right.

[Wretched Radio Announcer]

Wrong.

[George Barna]

Societal parents. Religion, What?

[Male Student 3]

I guess society. My parents. You know, I think that people are by nature moral creatures because they, you know.

[George Barna]

Do you think we're basically good or bad?

[Male Student 3]

You know, I was thinking about this just the other day. I think that on the whole, we're basically good, but individuals are questionable, maybe. Basically bad.

[George Barna]

Doesn't the whole get made up by the individuals?

[Male Student 3]

Yeah, but it's like an averaging thing.

[George Barna]

I see. So there's a curve.

[Male Student 3]

Yeah, I think that. I think that one person you can't say is basically good, but. But all people, I think, are basically good.

[George Barna]

All right, I'm gonna try to prove you wrong. I'm gonna try to prove that you guys aren't basically good. You ready for this? I thought you said we were basically good.

[Male Student 3]

I said individuals aren't.

[George Barna]

But are you basically good?

[Male Student 3]

Maybe. Yeah.

[George Barna]

See, you are. You think you are. All right, I'm trying to prove you wrong. And we'll also be able to explain why you wear clothing. I got an answer for that. I can actually explain to you why you put clothes on every. Police are more reasons than that, my friend. All right. How many lies do you think you've told in your life?

[Male Student 3]

Oh, millions.

[George Barna]

How many times have you blasphemed God's name?

[Male Student 3]

What?

[George Barna]

Just about 10 seconds ago.

[Male Student 3]

I was about to, but I decided it might be.

[George Barna]

Thank you for that. Appreciate it very much.

[Male Student 2]

All right.

[George Barna]

How many times have you looked at porn? Looked at a woman with lust?

[Male Student 3]

Lots.

[George Barna]

Lots of times.

[Male Student 3]

Yeah. How many women have I seen today?

[George Barna]

Tens. Hundreds, perhaps.

[Male Student 3]

Okay.

[George Barna]

All right. How many times have you dishonored your parents?

[Male Student 3]

Not too many, but some.

[George Barna]

You've done it, right? And remember the porn thing? You Wouldn't be real happy to be doing that in front of mom and dad, right?

[Male Student 3]

I don't think that would dishonor them.

[George Barna]

But you don't think so? Mom and dad tell their friends at the country club that their son is looking at porn.

[Male Student 3]

I'm sure my parents have looked at porn.

[George Barna]

Alrighty. How many lies have you told, dude?

[Male Student 4]

Untold.

[George Barna]

Untold number of lies. And you?

[Male Student 2]

Millions.

[George Barna]

Millions. You're a productive fellow. All right. Millions of lies. How many things have you stolen in your life?

[Male Student 4]

I don't know. I don't really count.

[George Barna]

How many things have you stolen?

[Male Student 4]

I don't know. I'm not sure.

[George Barna]

Lust how many times today.

[Male Student 4]

Does it include these guys as well? I don't know.

[George Barna]

Whatever.

[Male Student 4]

A lot, I think. Every girl. All right. Every girl.

[George Barna]

All right, dude. How many things have you stolen in your lifetime?

[Male Student 2]

Tens.

[George Barna]

Tens of things. How many times have you lost in.

[Male Student 2]

I don't know. I don't know.

[George Barna]

Tens of times? Hundreds of times? Thousands of times, probably. All right. Okay, guys, I just gave you a little test. You said you're a good guy. I think I just proved you wrong. By your own admission, you're a liar, you're a thief, you're a blasphemer, and you're an adulterer at heart. That didn't sound like a good guy to me.

[Male Student 3]

I think that that doesn't characterize me overall.

[George Barna]

Well, consider a criminal who gets brought before a judge. And the judge knew that the guy had broken hundreds, thousands of laws. And the guy said, but, judge, overall, I don't think that characterizes me. Would the guy be innocent or guilty?

[Male Student 3]

The guy's guilty for each crime that he commits.

[Wretched Radio Announcer]

Right.

[Male Student 3]

And innocent of everything else.

[George Barna]

And you'd call him a. If he committed murder, you call him a murderer or a raper, you call him a rapist.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Right. You can call him a liar.

[Male Student 3]

A liar if you want.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Okay.

[Male Student 3]

I don't think that that makes me a bad person.

[George Barna]

Well, what does it make you?

[Male Student 3]

It makes me a person.

[George Barna]

Do you like getting lied to?

[Male Student 3]

I thought that the whole. So I'm guessing you're coming from a very Christian slant.

[George Barna]

I'm trying not. I'm coming from a Ten Commandment slant right now.

[Male Student 4]

Yeah.

[Male Student 3]

Ten Commandments slant. Is that the idea is that people commit sins and then you are not supposed to, but then you do anyway, and then you get redemption for that by being sorry about it. And a good person overall.

[George Barna]

That's my idea. Really gotten that spot.

[Male Student 3]

But I'm saying you're trying to make the argument that I'm a liar. Sure, I'm a liar. I've lied. Right, so you can make that definition. But I don't think that it proves your point that I'm a bad person overall.

[George Barna]

Really?

[Male Student 3]

But if you feel bad, what do

[George Barna]

you have to do to be considered a bad person? How many laws would he have to break?

[Male Student 3]

I don't think that it has to do with laws. I think that really it has to do with hurting or disregarding, disrespecting other people.

[George Barna]

Did lies help people or hurt people? Disrespected them.

[Male Student 3]

50.

[Male Student 1]

50.

[George Barna]

Looking at women, I'll bet some of them would slap your face if they knew what you were doing. Some of them like it, maybe.

[Male Student 3]

And anyway, the ones that I look at, they don't know anything. So it doesn't hurt them.

[George Barna]

All right, let me. I try to make my case that you're not a good guy, you're a bad guy. What do you say for yourself?

[Male Student 4]

I think I'm a good guy.

[George Barna]

But I just. This interview's over. You all done? Got a little too personal, did it? You still think you're a good guy even though you've lied hundreds, thousands of times? I think you said lusted a lot.

[Male Student 4]

Yeah, but you haven't classified by lies. Some lies are good, some are bad.

[George Barna]

Bad ones, lying lies, I think they're

[Male Student 4]

still good at the end of the day. They don't do any harm.

[George Barna]

Dude, you hate it when people lie to you?

[Male Student 4]

Not really.

[George Barna]

You do too. I know it for a fact. It really makes you angry.

[Male Student 4]

If they their output is more good than bad, then I classify them as good as.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[George Barna]

Nobody's ever lied to you then.

[Male Student 4]

I mean, they probably have. Yeah.

[George Barna]

Got up your nose, didn't it?

[Male Student 4]

Nope.

[George Barna]

Didn't. You're a better man than I, Ganga Din. Alright, dude. Good person or bad person?

[Male Student 2]

I'm a good person.

[George Barna]

Still?

[Jimmy Hicks]

Yeah, I'm still a good person.

[Male Student 2]

I'm actually happy. I have a God that gives me redemption.

[George Barna]

So it's perfect. Your God allows you to look at pornography and women and have sexual desires. Who is this God?

[Male Student 2]

God wants me to be happy, right?

[George Barna]

I don't know. Who is this God?

[Male Student 2]

He's my God. He's everywhere. He's probably in you too.

[George Barna]

He is. So you're a pantheist.

[Male Student 2]

Yeah.

[George Barna]

Or a panentheist.

[Male Student 2]

No, I'm not.

[George Barna]

Do you believe in God?

[Male Student 2]

I do.

[George Barna]

There's no sense of justice with your God. He's not gonna punish lawbreaker. Is your God gonna judge and Punish rapists and murderers?

[Male Student 2]

My God doesn't judge me.

[George Barna]

Does he judge anybody?

[Male Student 2]

No, he does not.

[George Barna]

So he's an amoral God? Doesn't sound like God to me. What power does this God have?

[Male Student 2]

He's a wonderful God.

[George Barna]

If he's wonderful, why does he like raping and lusting and pornography?

[Male Student 2]

Have I said that I raped a girl in the past? I don't think I did.

[Male Student 4]

Right.

[George Barna]

I don't believe. Okay, but that's not the point. There's a lot of rapes that happen. There's a lot of murders. Are you not gonna deal with those people?

[Male Student 2]

I mean, justice in a country is made for it, right?

[George Barna]

No, God's just justice.

[Male Student 2]

Oh, God.

[Todd Friel]

Justice.

[George Barna]

Will God ever have a day of justice?

[Jimmy Hicks]

Of course.

[Male Student 2]

God doesn't want that.

[George Barna]

Okay, guys, can you hang in with me for just a couple seconds? You're getting hungry. All right, Hang on. Okay, Hang in there. Just one second. All right. Taking a quickie. Regid radio.

[Libby Glossin]

Have you ever wanted to take a tour of Europe but you couldn't swing the airfare? Good news. Todd Friel's already gone for you. Our resource, on the Shoulders of Giants takes you across six countries to meet your Christian ancestors, the reformers, the men who were strangled, quartered and burned alive so you could hold a Bible in your own language and understand the Gospel of grace. You'll see the stake where Jan Hus was burned to death, the prison where William Tyndale translated scripture. The very courtroom where John Wycliffe was called monstrously wicked. You'll visit Martin Luther's home, the field where George WHITEFIELD Preach to 30,000 people without a microphone, and the outdoor pulpit of the thundering Scott himself, John Knox. These people were too good for this world. And their lives will challenge you to be bolder than ever before. On the Shoulders of Giants. It is streaming for free right now on Fortis Plus. Download the app where you download apps on your smartphone, on your smart TV, or simply visit fortisplus.org. you know those really big questions you get when your kid comes home from college? You know, the ones about whether God exists? Exists, if the Bible can be trusted, why there's evil in the world? Or what's wrong with everyone else's view on sexuality? Yeah, those. Road trip to truth doesn't dodge them. This resource is hosted by John Ferbarez, and it goes straight to college campuses and talks to students who are asking these very same questions. But it doesn't just stop there. No.

[Todd Friel]

No.

[Libby Glossin]

Then there are the experts that give the Real answers with topics like science and faith, pornography, social media and mental health, critical race theory, marriage, eternity. And that's not even the half of it. If you have teenagers, this is the stuff they need to hear before the world gives them its version. And if you don't have teenagers, you'll still learn something. Road Trip to Truth, all four seasons. Available right now on Fortis for free. Download it now, where you download apps on your smartphone, your smart TV, or just simply go to fortisplus.org a lot of us got handed a choice. We never agreed to faith on one side, reason on the other. So when talk turns to fossils or the age of the universe, you kind

[Jimmy Hicks]

of feel that knot.

[Libby Glossin]

You believe God's word, you just can't explain why. But that choice was a setup. The same God who gave us the Bible gave us the universe to study. And truth doesn't argue with itself. The trouble was the assumptions, the one smuggled in next to the evidence and taught as fact. It's why two people can look at the same fossil and walk away telling two different stories. But you sort the assumptions out and the science sits comfortably beside Scripture. That's exactly what in the beginning with Dr. Jason Lyle is for. He's a PhD astrophysicist who takes the hardest questions in science and makes them clear and biblical. New episodes of in the Beginning, heard every Wednesday on every Saturday single podcast platform in existence or on the Fortis plus app at fortisplus.org.

[Todd Friel]

Titles of Christ in the Bible, Jesus is given many titles that teach us about who he is and what he has done. Jesus is called the physician. Jesus healed many physical ailments during his ministry on Earth. When he comes again, he will put an end to death and disease and give us spiritual bodies to last for eternity. This is Wretched Radio with Todd Friel.

[George Barna]

Can a God be God if he doesn't care that bad things happen? That is the question. This is Wretched Radio. I'm standing here at Georgia Tech with three guys and, dude, you are the one who believes that there's a God, right? Do you guys think that there's a God?

[Female Student]

Yeah.

[George Barna]

And do you believe there's a God?

[Male Student 3]

I think that my beliefs about God would not line up with yours.

[George Barna]

I'm just asking you, do you think that there is a God?

[Male Student 3]

Let's say no for our purposes.

[George Barna]

All right. Let's say no for. So there's no God, right?

[Male Student 4]

All right.

[George Barna]

If there was a God, do you know how many murders took place in the 1990s in the United States, big number. Take a shot. 230 people were murdered in this country. 100,000 of them were brought to justice. That means 100,000 got off Scot free, did horrible things to people and got away with it. Do you think that if God exists he should deal with those people and give them what they deserve? If there's a God, I don't think

[Male Student 3]

that there's any force in this life that can deal with people outside of, you know, the laws of men, you know, and maybe in the.

[George Barna]

But if God exists, I don't know what happens. I understand this is a fantasy right now.

[Male Student 3]

If God exists, I mean if your God exists, then yeah, he definitely is.

[George Barna]

Okay, then let's transition. Let's say it's my God, okay? I'm a Christian. That probably doesn't shock you, right? I'm a Christian. I believe that the God of the Bible exists. If that God exists and he's perfect and he's holy, what do you think he should do with law breaking?

[Male Student 3]

Supposedly God has a good idea about what's going on. Perfect, all powerful, all knowing. Why even worry about this? Why not just try to do what God says to do and forgive those that transgress?

[George Barna]

Here's why. Because God has told us what to do. Keep the laws, be pure, don't lie, don't steal, don't cheat, don't be angry, don't lust. You haven't done that. God's right response to you would be to be angry with you.

[Male Student 3]

Okay, so God, so that's it then, God could be angry.

[George Barna]

That's right.

[Male Student 3]

Why worry about.

[George Barna]

Because God is angry at you.

[Male Student 3]

So are you a sinner?

[George Barna]

Yeah.

[Male Student 3]

So you should worry about what God thinks about you.

[Wretched Radio Announcer]

I do.

[Male Student 3]

And we should let the laws of men worry about how to punish in this life.

[George Barna]

If he's the just judge of all the earth, he's the supreme judge who's going to give an account for all the things that the police miss. Okay, for instance, guys, the books get opened up, every thought, every word and deed. The police don't catch those things. But God does. He's a just God. You confess to breaking his laws. If you're guilty, what should God do with you? Should he send you to heaven or should he send you to hell? Yeah, you know what I'm talking about. Heaven's good, Hell is a bad. What should a just God do with

[Interviewer/Assistant]

somebody like you who's broken the laws?

[George Barna]

Would God, if he's just send you to heaven or hell?

[Male Student 4]

I mean this is a difference opinion of God? Are we talking about your God?

[George Barna]

Yes, probably Hell.

[Male Student 4]

Because I'm not a Christian. So, I mean.

[George Barna]

But no, because you're a lawbreaker. Not because you're not a Christian, but because you're a lawbreaker.

[Male Student 4]

What laws have I broken, though?

[George Barna]

Lying, lusting. Have you ever blasphemed God's name?

[Male Student 4]

Just the other day. But I mean, that doesn't. That's. That's defined in your rules. That's not in my rules.

[George Barna]

Well, no, those are God's rules and they're either true or false.

[Male Student 4]

Again, this is defined. You assume that God is your God and within mine I have a different definition.

[George Barna]

Fair enough. But if my God is the true God, what would he do with you?

[Male Student 4]

Again, if your God was a true God, I would go to hell because I'm quote, unquote, not a Christian.

[Male Student 1]

Okay.

[George Barna]

No, because you're a law breaker. That's the difference. No, I believe that if the true

[Male Student 4]

God is God, I am not going to heaven.

[George Barna]

Yeah, but you're going.

[Male Student 4]

I've been told that on multiple occasions.

[George Barna]

But let me help you out. Theologically, you don't go to heaven for not believing in Jesus. That's just one of your crimes. You go for breaking God's laws.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Okay?

[George Barna]

Criminals go to jail for breaking the laws. People go to hell because they've broken the laws, not because they're not Christians. So, guys, you'd be going to hell, right?

[Male Student 2]

I mean, I'm happy that my God is much better than yours.

[George Barna]

Pro league. But if mine exists, yours to be to your hell.

[Male Student 2]

Yeah, with you.

[George Barna]

Oh, no, you wouldn't. You have no idea how bad it is.

[Male Student 2]

Because of you, we didn't eat and we may be dying.

[Todd Friel]

Go.

[George Barna]

Okay, guys. Gentlemen, I thank you very much for the chat. You would not want to go there, sir. Alrighty.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Well, this is interesting.

[George Barna]

Wait a second. We had an onlooker. Young lady, you were eavesdropping, weren't you? What? What did you think about what just happened there?

[Jehovah's Witness Student]

I didn't hear the initial question, but I just. I heard parts of it. Thought it was interesting.

[George Barna]

What part was interesting?

[Jehovah's Witness Student]

What was your initial question to them?

[George Barna]

Would you consider yourself to be a good person? And they said, yeah, we're good guys. And I asked them some questions that I think prove that they're not good guys, that they're actually bad guys. That's how all that happened.

[Jehovah's Witness Student]

Oh, wow, that's interesting.

[Male Student 4]

Yeah.

[George Barna]

Do you think you're a good person?

[Jehovah's Witness Student]

In what terms?

[George Barna]

By the standard of the Ten Commandments,

[Jehovah's Witness Student]

I think That I try my best to follow Jesus example.

[George Barna]

Would you consider yourself to be a good person?

[Jehovah's Witness Student]

I consider myself to be sinful. You do so, yeah, I am.

[George Barna]

So you're a bad person.

[Jehovah's Witness Student]

Not necessarily a bad person, but if you're gonna use it by Bible test terms, you know, only God is good.

[George Barna]

Yeah. Okay, so you'd be bad. Yes.

[Jehovah's Witness Student]

In terms of sinful, yes. All of us are.

[Male Student 4]

Right.

[George Barna]

So being sinful makes you a bad person, right?

[Jehovah's Witness Student]

I guess. I mean, it depends what you're defining it by.

[George Barna]

Yeah. Well, here's. I take it you're a Christian, Is that right?

[Jehovah's Witness Student]

Yeah.

[Male Student 4]

Yeah.

[George Barna]

Well, here it's. It's that it's kind of a trick question. Then if you're a Christian, the exact precise right answer would be, oh, yeah, I'm a sinful person, but I'm a forgiven person and God is growing me in holiness. That would be maybe the right way

[Interviewer/Assistant]

to say it, or to say that

[George Barna]

I have an alien righteousness in me, but in and of myself, I'm a bad guy. I've lied, I've stolen, I've lusted, I've blasphemed. I deserve God's wrath. But Jesus took my place and he took my punishment for me. I repented, apologized for my sins, turned from my sins, putting my trust in Jesus. And he forgave me and granted me everlasting life based on Jesus goodness, not mine. And so now, even though my past is very sinful and I still sin as a Christian, he's growing in holiness. That might be the most precise way to put it. If you're a Christian. What do you think?

[Jehovah's Witness Student]

I think that a lot of that is right.

[George Barna]

A lot or all.

[Jehovah's Witness Student]

I mean, it's funny because, I mean, I heard different things that you said to them and, you know, they're not all biblically based.

[George Barna]

Grab one. Which one was it?

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Where do you think I was off

[Jehovah's Witness Student]

belief in hell fire?

[George Barna]

Oh, you don't think God sends people to hell?

[Jehovah's Witness Student]

I believe that there nowhere in the Bible doesn't speak of a burning hell. There is some.

[George Barna]

Matthew 25.

[Jehovah's Witness Student]

There are some figurative things in there. However. However, if you want to. I mean, if you want to hell, if you look up. If you look up the terms that are used in the original writings, hell is just mankind's common grave.

[Male Student 3]

Mm. Mm.

[George Barna]

It's a lake of sulfur, weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[Jehovah's Witness Student]

The second judgment. That's something different.

[George Barna]

What religion are you?

[Jehovah's Witness Student]

I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

[George Barna]

I figured as much. There we go. And you don't believe that Jesus is gone, right?

[Jehovah's Witness Student]

I believe he's God's son.

[George Barna]

But not God.

[Jehovah's Witness Student]

No.

[George Barna]

Is he Michael the Archangel?

[Jehovah's Witness Student]

Yes, he is.

[George Barna]

Okay, so you don't have a payment for your sins?

[Jehovah's Witness Student]

I do.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Who is it?

[Jehovah's Witness Student]

I do. Jesus. Death. Jesus died. John 3:16. Jesus died so that people who put their faith in him.

[George Barna]

Have you read the Gospel of John?

[Jehovah's Witness Student]

I have.

[George Barna]

Do you know how many times Jesus calls himself God in the that gospel?

[Jehovah's Witness Student]

You know what there is? If you look, if you were to take your time and to study, you would see that Jesus says there are many. Let me put it this way. There are many gods, yet there is one true God.

[George Barna]

Oh, all the other gods are false. It's the first and second commandment.

[Jehovah's Witness Student]

Oh, definitely. However, it says in the beginning Jesus was with God, or Jesus was.

[George Barna]

Was God the same was in the beginning with God?

[Jehovah's Witness Student]

There's an article there. There's an article there.

[George Barna]

Actually, there isn't an article there.

[Jehovah's Witness Student]

There is an article.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

No, because there's no. For a.

[George Barna]

In Greek, there's no article. You're right with what you're saying, but you just have it flipped. In order for it to say the God, it would have to have a hu. In front of it, which would be the. For us. But it doesn't have it. But later in the same chapter of John it does. So it kind of gets defeated. And furthermore, in the rest of the

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Gospel of John, he calls himself God.

[George Barna]

So clearly.

[Jehovah's Witness Student]

But if you were. I mean, it just depends. Your answer will come based on the way how you look for it. You know, if you're looking humbly to find the right answer, you will find the right answer.

[George Barna]

But Jesus said he's the answer. He's the way, the truth, the life. Nobody comes to the Father but through him.

[Jehovah's Witness Student]

Through Him, Exactly.

[George Barna]

And what happens if they don't go through him? What happens to people? Where do people go?

[Jehovah's Witness Student]

Everybody will have. I mean, they're not left in a burning hell. If God is love, God is definitely not going to.

[George Barna]

Oh, but love hates sin, right?

[Jehovah's Witness Student]

Exactly. And he would put an end to that, just like.

[George Barna]

Not if he's just. And not if the offense is eternal. Let me leave you with a thought, all right? If I'm wrong, what's going to happen to me when I die?

[Jehovah's Witness Student]

What's gonna happen to you? You won't be able to take part in everlasting life. When the earth is restored to paradise, what'll happen?

[George Barna]

So I'm kinda gone.

[Jehovah's Witness Student]

You're gone. That's it.

[George Barna]

So really not too bad. I'll be no more conscious of life than I was before I was born. Right?

[Jehovah's Witness Student]

Exactly.

[George Barna]

If I'm right, what's gonna happen to you?

[Jehovah's Witness Student]

If you're right, as far as what

[George Barna]

Jesus Christ is, God himself, who died on the cross to save people from

[Male Student 1]

the wrath of God.

[George Barna]

If I'm right, what will happen to you?

[Jehovah's Witness Student]

What will happen to me? Well, I'm putting faith in Christ.

[George Barna]

Not the right one, but not the one that I'm talking about. So if I'm right and you're wrong, what will happen to you?

[Jehovah's Witness Student]

Well, it wouldn't matter if you're right or you're wrong.

[George Barna]

Oh, it does. If I'm right, what will happen?

[Jehovah's Witness Student]

Because I know what the truth is, and the truth is what matters.

[George Barna]

You know, what I did. The little fantasy. If you're right, nothing happens to me. I'm okay. But if I'm right, you're going to hell. Agreed?

[Jimmy Hicks]

Agreed.

[George Barna]

All right. Have a good day, Rachel. Thank you very much. It's Witness Wednesday, Georgia Tech. Until tomorrow. Go serve your king.