Todd Talks to Mormon Missionaries

Summary

Podcast Summary: Wretched Radio with Todd Friel

Episode: Todd Talks to Mormon Missionaries

Date: June 17, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Todd Friel hosts an open, conversational witnessing encounter at the University of Georgia, engaging first with Demarier Hawkins, a college student with a Baptist background, and later with two Mormon missionaries (members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints). The objective is to explore and contrast differing beliefs about salvation, the nature of God, and Christian exclusivity, all while maintaining an engaging dialogue marked by challenging questions and mutual respect.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. A Christian and a Baptist’s Perspective on Pluralism

• Demarier Hawkins’s Background:
  • Raised Baptist, sometimes attends church with family (01:06–01:20).
  • Hesitant about church attendance at college, admits a lack of personal initiative (01:26–01:38).
• On Persuading Others to His Faith:
  • Emphasizes intrinsic motivation and how his faith "keeps [him] grounded" (01:57–02:28).
• Truth Claims and Religious Relativism:
  • Initially resists calling other religions "wrong," using analogy of preference (03:32–04:00).
  • After challenge, reluctantly admits, "In a way...they would be wrong," if Jesus is the exclusive way (04:40–04:55).
• The Elephant Analogy and Limits of Relativism:
  • Accepts the idea that different faiths may apprehend "different parts," much like blind men touching parts of an elephant (05:00–05:35).
  • Host logically and theologically counters: If Jesus claims exclusivity, the analogy breaks down (06:08–07:13).
    • Quote: “You’ve got to know me and me only if you want to inherit eternal life. Wouldn’t that undermine the elephant analogy?” – Host (06:57)
    • Demarier agrees.

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2. The Gospel and the Role of the Law

• Role Reversal – Addressing the Conscience:
  • Host leads Demarier through the “Good Person Test” (lying, stealing, lust, anger), to press home the biblical view of sin (07:43–10:01).
    • “So we’re liars, we’re thieves. We’re adulterers. We take God’s name in vain...So you’re like, well, me, basically.” – Host (09:46)
    • “Right. We’re all the same.” – Demarier (09:59)
• Divine Justice versus Forgiveness:
  • Demarier hopes for heaven because "God is forgiving," but the host presents the problem of a just judge letting a guilty criminal go free (10:43–11:13).
    • “So how can God be just and forgiving at the same time? There’s a tension there.” – Host (11:06)
    • Demarier admits he can’t resolve it.
• Gospel Explanation:
  • Host summarizes the Christian Gospel: Jesus, fully God and man, lived perfectly, bore the punishment for sin, offers his righteousness to believers (15:03–17:36).
    • “He took on your form, lived the life that you haven’t lived, died the death that you are owed on your behalf.” – Host (15:39)
    • Demarier acknowledges this as the heart of faith.
• On Repentance and Faith:
  • Host stresses: “You must repent and you must believe in Jesus Christ as if your eternity depended on it.” (22:05)
  • Demarier admits he has not consistently or fully done this (22:10–24:02).
    • “I have not put my full trust in Jesus Christ yet. I do need to catch this bus, right?” – Demarier (24:02)
  • Host reflects on the encounter and the limits of human persuasion, encouraging listeners to trust God with the outcome (24:42–26:01).

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3. In-Depth Interview with Mormon Missionaries

a. Nature of Jesus and the Godhead

• LDS Teachings on Jesus:
  • Jesus is "the Son of God...our Lord and Savior" who gives us "a chance to live with God once more." (33:24–33:36)
  • Jesus and the Father are "separate and distinct beings." The Father has a body "of flesh and bones," the Son too; the Holy Spirit does not (34:54–36:03).
    • Quote: “If you were able to see God and Jesus Christ, I’d see two different persons.” – Mormon Missionary 2 (35:27)
• Eternal Existence:
  • Father and Jesus are said to have "eternally existed," but specifics about the eternality of the Father’s body and origin are uncertain (36:08–36:37).

b. Salvation and Works

• LDS Requirements for Salvation:
  • Faith, repentance, baptism, receipt of the Holy Ghost, and living righteously—"we are shouting our absolute best to seek perfection" (37:28–37:52).
• Faith and Works:
  • "Faith without works is dead." After initial trust, works are seen as a manifestation of faith, but are also essential (38:19–40:14).
    • Host counters: Protestants believe works are the fruit, not the cause, of salvation (38:42–39:29).
• Levels of Heaven:
  • LDS teaches three "heavens" (celestial, terrestrial, telestial); where you end up depends on what is "most comfortable" according to your earthly life, but only the highest is the presence of God (48:34–49:05).
    • “[Your place depends] where we feel most comfortable based on how we performed in this life.” – Mormon Missionary 2 (49:14)
• Doctrine of Exaltation:
  • Faithful Mormons may become like God, with their own universes (51:41–52:06).
    • Quote: "[Exaltation is] a beautiful doctrine, isn’t it?...I believe so." – Mormon Missionary 2 (51:41–52:04)

c. Race and Changing Doctrine

• Blacks and the Priesthood:
  • Acknowledgment that black members were historically denied priesthood, but rule was changed in the 1970s (52:22–53:12).
  • When asked why God changed his mind: "Sometimes he changes his plan for us...he doesn't change as in his truth..." – Mormon Missionary 2 (53:16–53:36).

d. Missionary Life and Motivation

• Missionary Commitment:
  • Two years away, limited family contact; seen as a sacrifice for a higher calling (44:10–45:40).
• Evangelistic Zeal:
  • Missionaries speak to over 100 people daily (46:14–46:26).
• Encounters with the Gospel:
  • Willingness to exchange materials (Book of Mormon for a Christian DVD, 54:31–54:50).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Exclusive Faith Claims:
  • "If you are stating the truth with that proclamation, wouldn’t that automatically mean then that the Muslim and the Buddhist is wrong?" – Host (04:00)
  • “In a way, I would say that...being that I’m a Baptist, I’m supposed to believe that Jesus is right.” – Demarier Hawkins (04:40)
• On The Gospel Transaction:
  • “He took on your form, lived the life that you haven’t lived, died the death that you are owed on your behalf.” – Host (15:39)
  • “There’s a credit on our account from when Jesus came.” – Demarier Hawkins (17:21)
• On Mormon Distinctiveness:
  • “The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are three separate and distinct beings.” – Mormon Missionary 2 (34:54)
  • “I’d see two different persons.” – Mormon Missionary 2 (35:27)
  • “Faith without works is dead.” – Mormon Missionaries (multiple, 38:19 ff.)
  • “So you then someday might have a universe where you’ve got people like us that you are the God of. Is that correct?” – Host (51:54)
  • “I believe so.” – Mormon Missionary 2 (52:04)

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Theological and Tone Summary

• Language & Tone:
  • Direct, respectful, occasionally playful (“senior couple”, “fishing in a barrel”).
  • Host is probing but not aggressive; cross-examinations are used to illuminate doctrinal differences, not to ridicule.
• Purpose:
  • To model evangelistic conversation—moving from worldview, to self-examination under God’s law, to the distinctives of grace, faith, and works.
  • To clarify LDS doctrine compared to orthodox Christianity, particularly concerning salvation, the person of Christ, and the possibility of human exaltation.

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Key Timestamps

• 01:57 – Demarier explains the grounding effect of Baptist faith
• 03:32 – Host challenges Demarier on exclusivity of truth claims
• 05:00 – Elephant analogy discussed
• 07:43 – Host leads “conscience” quiz concluding with the gravity of God’s law
• 15:03 – Gospel explained by Host in courtroom imagery
• 22:05 – What the Bible says one must do to be saved (repent and believe)
• 24:02 – Demarier vulnerably admits difficulty trusting Jesus fully
• 33:24 – Mormon missionaries introduce their beliefs on Jesus
• 34:54 – "Three separate and distinct beings": the LDS view of Godhead
• 37:28–38:19 – How to be saved in Mormonism (faith, works, baptism, etc.)
• 48:34 – Three levels of heaven explained
• 51:41 – Doctrine of exaltation (becoming like God)
• 52:22 – The history of LDS prohibition, then acceptance, of black priesthood holders
• 53:16 – "God sometimes alters his plan"
• 54:31 – Friendly exchange of religious materials

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Conclusion

This episode of Wretched Radio offers listeners a guided window into honest, challenging, and charitable conversations about faith. Todd Friel intentionally presses for clarity on assurance, works versus grace, and the core differences between evangelical and Latter-day Saint theology, providing both a model for Christian witnessing and a rare opportunity to hear Mormon missionaries articulate their perspective firsthand.

Final Message:
"[Evangelism] doesn’t need to be Armageddon with your neighbor. Love them. See them as lost. Not trying to win an argument. But I want these people to know…so that they can be saved." – Host (24:42–25:23)

Transcript

[Todd Friel]

Wretched radio begins in 3, 2, 1.

[Demarier Hawkins]

I identify as a transgender woman.

[Mormon Missionary 1]

I identify as a straight transgender female.

[Interviewer / Host]

There is no such thing as transgender. You're either XX or xy.

[Mormon Missionary 2]

But honestly, I don't really identify as human.

[Mormon Missionary 1]

I'm tired of being humanized for the

[Fortis News Anchor]

comfort of other people.

[Demarier Hawkins]

God made man male and female. That is determined genetically.

[Interviewer / Host]

That is physiology. That is science.

[Fortis News Anchor]

That is reality.

[Todd Friel]

It's time for Wretched Radio with Todd Friel.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

What is happening to me could happen

[Interviewer / Host]

to you, too, Friel. We're not interested. Welcome to a Wretched.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

At the University of Georgia, Athens, I found myself a fishing hole. This is the place where I tend to feel most comfortable walking backwards, mostly not tripping over young college students and then sitting down next to a guy like this. Hello, young man. Do you have a second to talk to me?

[Demarier Hawkins]

Sir?

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

Sweet. What's your name?

[Demarier Hawkins]

My name is demarier Hawkins.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

Where are you from, demarier?

[Demarier Hawkins]

Marietta, Georgia. Born in Oakland, California, but I was raised in Marietta, Georgia, yeah.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

So you're a Southern boy?

[Demarier Hawkins]

Yes, sir.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

You are a Bible Belter?

[Demarier Hawkins]

Yes, sir.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

Did you grow up in the church?

[Demarier Hawkins]

I did. A Baptist? Yes, sir.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

You grew up in a Baptist? Are you still going to a Baptist church?

[Demarier Hawkins]

Whenever I go home and visit my mom, I do.

[Mormon Missionary 1]

Yes, sir.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

Do you go to a Baptist church on campus?

[Demarier Hawkins]

I do not go to a Baptist church on campus.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

How come?

[Demarier Hawkins]

I guess I just haven't taken the initiative to go out and for the four years I've been here, I haven't taken the initiative to go out and look for a church that's fitting for myself.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

Maria, I'd like to ask you to

[Interviewer / Host]

do me a favor.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

Now, this will be a little unusual because in an environment like this, typically imposing values on people is kind of forbidden. I'm asking you to persuade me to. To become a Baptist like you. Would you do that for me?

[Demarier Hawkins]

I can try to do that for you.

[Interviewer / Host]

All right.

[Demarier Hawkins]

All right. So if I were to persuade you to go to a Baptist church or to be under the Baptist phase first, I would tell you that it's something that you need to want to do intrinsically. Also. I found that it's helped me in my life. It kind of keeps me grounded. There's a lot of different externalities in life that can kind of stray you from the path that you want to be on. And I found that the Baptist faith actually kind of keeps me grounded in that faith. I always have something to go to when I'm feeling a little bit off or Feel like I'm straying down the wrong path. The Baptist faith kind of keeps me grounded.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

I'm going to tell you what I believe. I believe that Mark Richt, the former coach of the Bulldogs, that if I say his name three times before I die, I'm going to spend eternity in that stadium as the quarterback and every pass I throw will be a touchdown. Would you say that my religious worldview is wrong?

[Demarier Hawkins]

I would say your religious worldview is wrong because that's not always the case. I'm pretty sure there have been quarterbacks who've come through this football program who said Mark Rick's name more than three

[Interviewer / Host]

times in their life, probably maybe even a bad way.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

But the point is. So you would say I'm just wrong?

[Demarier Hawkins]

Just wrong, yeah. And there's also more to it than just saying your coach's name, translating over to the faith. I think it's more than just saying Jesus name and reading the Bible and just going to church. You know, there's more out there. You have to, like I said, have an intrinsic motivation to try and actually follow the faith after you.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

Would you be willing to say as a Baptist that a Buddhist is wrong?

[Demarier Hawkins]

No, not at all.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

As a Baptist, would you be willing to say that a Muslim is wrong?

[Demarier Hawkins]

No, not at all. No, you can't. I don't believe in telling people that what they grew up on, the values that were instilled in them. I don't think certain cases, but generally I don't think you can say that that's wrong. Because that's like saying if your grandma cooks her favorite pie the right way and you like it and then you eat someone else's pie, that person can't tell your grandma she made her pie the wrong way.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

You know, I think that illustration is a preference issue. For instance, I prefer a book carrying bag with one strap, not a backpack like you. Just a preference. But a religious worldview is a truth statement. You're a Baptist and you mentioned the name of Jesus, so you would proclaim he is the way, the truth, the life. That is either true or that is false. If you are stating the truth with that proclamation, wouldn't that automatically mean then that the Muslim and the Buddhist is wrong?

[Demarier Hawkins]

In a way, I would say that based off what you just said, that they would be wrong. Because being that I'm a Baptist, I'm supposed to believe that Jesus is right. You know, but also you have to think that they may not have been exposed to that's.

[Narrator / Advertiser]

That's true.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

Have you ever Heard the elephant analogy?

[Demarier Hawkins]

I have not.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

The story goes that there are some blind men and they're standing around an elephant and one of them feels a leg. It's big and square and solid and strong. Another one has the tail, another one has the tusk. Another one feels the ear, another one feels the belly. The conclusion to that is nobody can know all truth, only parts of it. So they understand the elephant as best they can.

[Mormon Missionary 1]

Right?

[Demarier Hawkins]

Right, Exactly.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

Do you think that analogy works with your Christian faith?

[Demarier Hawkins]

I do believe it works with the Christian faith. I believe that what I can feel and what I. From the elephant, I believe that that's what the elephant is to me, you know, but, you know, there's. The elephant has four legs, you know, there's different legs that, say, the Muslims can feel. And that's what Jesus. Not Jesus, but that's what their deity is to them. So I think it's based off more. So what values were instilled in you? What you take the time to go out and try to believe, and then I guess just what works for you best, you know?

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

Let me respond to that with two approaches, and then you tell me what you think. One will be a logical, the other will be a theological response. Logically, I would suggest to you the elephant analogy breaks down because there's somebody who apparently knows that it's an elephant. The premise of the analogy is that we do have knowledge of elephants, and if there is somebody who's just squeezing a leg and somebody's squeezing a trunk, they just understand a part of the elephant, but they can't know the whole. So knowing the elephant is either possible or it is not. Okay, that's logical, but theological. Help me out, Demarier. You said Jesus is the way, the truth, the life. Nobody comes to the Father but through me. I'll paraphrase it to work with our analogy. Nobody comes to me through that leg or that trunk or that ear or that tail. You've got to know me and me only if you want to inherit eternal life. Wouldn't that undermine the elephant analogy?

[Demarier Hawkins]

It does undermine the elephant analogy because like you said, you have to know the elephant as Jesus, and you can't come to Jesus any other way but knowing that he is the way, the truth, and the life. You understand what I'm saying?

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

All right, now I want to reverse roles for a moment. I asked you to give me a reason to become a Baptist, and you said it would make me grounded and I wouldn't argue with you. I'm going to try to convert you to my faith.

[Interviewer / Host]

Ready?

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

Now, I'm going to ask you some questions that have nothing to do with your intellect. We've been having a pretty intellectual conversation. I want to go to your conscience for just a moment. How many lies do you think you've told?

[Demarier Hawkins]

I would not be able to put a number on it. I don't try to lie. No one tries to lie. But I wouldn't be able to give you an oh, I have. Yeah. I wouldn't be able to give you an honest answer on how many lies I've told.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

So if you knew that I told a lot of lies, what name would you give to me that rhymes with fire?

[Demarier Hawkins]

Liar.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

Have you ever stolen anything? Regardless of value?

[Demarier Hawkins]

Regardless. From my siblings? Yes.

[Mormon Missionary 1]

Sure.

[Demarier Hawkins]

Yes.

[Mormon Missionary 2]

Yeah.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

Stuff. Or maybe coins from your parents?

[Demarier Hawkins]

Yes.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

Okay. So what would that make you, if you've stolen something?

[Demarier Hawkins]

A stealer.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

Only if you're from Pittsburgh. Otherwise you'd be a thief. All right, so you. You. I'm now sitting next to a liar and a thief. Is that correct?

[Demarier Hawkins]

Yes, sir.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

Your thought life. You can plead the fifth on this because. None of my business, but I'm just guessing, you're pretty typical male. And we males tend to have thoughts that we probably shouldn't have that would embarrass us if Grandma knew about that.

[Demarier Hawkins]

Okay. Yes.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

So I'm just gonna trust that if I asked you yes or no, you would probably say, yeah, you've had sexual thoughts that you shouldn't have had.

[Demarier Hawkins]

Yes, Definitely, yes.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

Have you ever murdered anybody?

[Demarier Hawkins]

I have never murdered anyone.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

Excellent. Have you ever been angry at somebody?

[Demarier Hawkins]

Yes, sir.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

Jesus said that if you call your brother a fool, get mad at him, you're in danger of the judgment. And then John, who wrote an epistle, said, when we're angry at somebody, it's like murder in our heart. It's not killing somebody, but it's the same attitude. And Jesus said, you've heard it said of old, thou shalt not commit adultery. But I say, if you look with lust, you've committed adultery in your heart.

[Demarier Hawkins]

Right. But not for physically.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

That's right. But not. Not physically. But we've all had those thoughts. So we're all adulterers at heart.

[Demarier Hawkins]

Yes, sir.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

So we're liars, we're thieves. We're adulterers. We take God's name in vain or use it lowly. We're blasphemers. We don't honor our parents like we're supposed to. So you're like, well, me, basically.

[Demarier Hawkins]

Right. We're all the Same.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

We all are the same. Now you die or God descends and he stands in front of you behind his bench, and he is going to render a verdict on the life of DeMaria, his standard, perfect holiness, righteousness, justice, everything that is right and good. He is. For everything that is not, he hates as a just judge, if he opened up the books on your life, knew every thought, every word, every deed.

[Demarier Hawkins]

I'm dying. Yeah, yeah. He would not be pleased with my life.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

Right, right. Would God sentence you to heaven or to hell?

[Demarier Hawkins]

To heaven. Because he's a God of forgiveness.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

Why would he do that? Because here, let me, let me, here's, here's the problem, I think with that statement, okay, Imagine an earthly court, okay, it's obvious this guy is just plain guilty, but the judge says, I'm forgiving, so I'm going to let you go.

[Interviewer / Host]

Uh oh.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

That judge is complicit in the crimes committed by the criminal.

[Demarier Hawkins]

Right, right.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

So how can God be just and forgiving at the same time? There's a tension there.

[Demarier Hawkins]

There is. There definitely is a discrepancy there, but it's resolvable.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

God is just. He must punish lawbreakers, but he's rich in mercy. Okay, so how can he satisfy justice and forgive you?

[Demarier Hawkins]

Hmm. I don'. I wouldn't be able to answer that. Do you have an answer for that?

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

Yes, sir.

[Narrator / Advertiser]

You know, you can love the Lord with absolutely everything in you and still go mute when somebody asks you, how do you even know the Bible is true? You feel the answer deep down, you just can't put it into words. The reasons go deeper than most of us were ever even shown. Skeptics know that, too. That's why they start in Genesis and then they work backward because if you crack the foundation, then everything built on top of it will start to wobble. But when you trace the logic and the morality and the science all the way down, you find the very same thing every single time. Reality only makes sense if the Bible is true. And Dr. Jason Lyle has spent his entire career studying the universe. And in his new series, Irrefutable Proof of Creation, he asks the hard questions about God and turns doubt into confidence. Irrefutable Proof of Creation is streaming right, right now on Fortis, with new episodes dropping every week. Download the Fortis app on your smartphone, your smart TV, or you can go

[Interviewer / Host]

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[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

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[Interviewer / Host]

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[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

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[Interviewer / Host]

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[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

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[Interviewer / Host]

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[Narrator / Advertiser]

Look, I'm going to be straight with you. Every man knows what it's like to fight a battle no one else can see. You wake up. You're determined that today is going to be different. This time, you're going to be stronger than the temptation. But then evening comes and there you are again, right back where you started. You're making promises to yourself that you already know deep down that you're not going to keep tomorrow. Here's what no one wants to admit. You can't win this fight with willpower. Trust me. If determination alone could break the chains of lust and sin, you would already be free. You've probably figured that out by now. The filters, the accountability apps, the promises to your wife or yourself, they're just band aids on a wound that needs surgery. Real freedom, the kind that actually lasts, only comes when Christ changes you from the inside out. Not just your habits, but. But your actual heart. That's what Todd Friel gets into very deeply with his resource Play the Man. It's available right now as an e book and audiobook and video series [e-mail].

[Todd Friel]

Important dates in Christian history. 1807. The British Parliament votes to abolish the slave trade. Its decision is owing in large part to. To the tireless efforts of the Christian politician William Wilberforce. Wilberforce's example spurred on abolitionist efforts in America for the next 55 years. This is Wretched Radio with Todd Friel.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

It's called the Gospel. You've heard this. Jesus Christ is God. Remember? Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Trinitarian. Three persons, one guy. Jesus Christ, the second person of the Trinity, took on a human body just like yours. He didn't break the laws, he kept them all. Always honored his parents, always was loving. Never had a lustful thought. Always did everything righteously. And our response when he came to this earth was to strip him and beat him and smash a crown of thorns on his head and nail him to a cross.

[Demarier Hawkins]

Right?

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

That was a judicial transaction that was taking place. This is the Bible's very courtroom language. Jesus Christ knows you're a guilty criminal, but he loves you and he's rich in mercy. But he's got to punish you, because if he doesn't, then he's not just. And that would violate his very character. So he took on your form, lived the life that you haven't lived, died the death that you are owed on your behalf. So that you, while you stand in the courtroom of God's justice, before God, slams down his gavel and says, guilty as charged, Jesus charges in and says, stop, father. I love DeMaria and I'll take the wrath that he deserves on myself.

[Demarier Hawkins]

That's what happened when God took the form of Jesus body and came to earth. Right? That's it. Okay?

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

And that way, justice. He can rightly forgive you because your crime has been paid, your fine has been taken care of by Jesus. By Jesus.

[Demarier Hawkins]

Right? Okay.

[Mormon Missionary 1]

Okay.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

It gets even better.

[Demarier Hawkins]

Okay?

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

Remember Jesus, fulfilling all righteousness, doing everything right and perfect, he takes all of that goodness and he says yours, and he credits it to your account, okay? So you can be seen not just as a forgiven criminal, but you can be the righteousness of God, not seen as a shameful criminal who everybody in the neighborhood knows, but as citizen of the millennial, you are perfect in the eyes of God because you're in Jesus, and he sees his son as Jesus. And you get all of that credited to your account. That is what God has done to save you and to rescue you.

[Demarier Hawkins]

Right? So that goes back to the question you asked me earlier. I found the discrepancy is that basically there's a credit on our account from when Jesus came and basically usurped all of our sins so that we can live the life that we live today.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

That's it. That's what Christianity is all about. All right. But now let's go back and rewind just a little bit to Mario.

[Demarier Hawkins]

Okay?

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

I want you to just think this

[Demarier Hawkins]

through for a moment, okay?

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

God created the universe for one reason. To send his son to die for sinners. That's why all of this is going on.

[Demarier Hawkins]

Okay?

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

He's got one purpose in mind. He wants to be seen as a God who should punish sinners, but who saves rebels and restores rebels to a right relationship. And then he serves us a banquet because he's a God who serves the servants. The king takes care of the peasants. The just judge forgives and loves the rebels. It's an amazing story. And before eternity began, God, determined to do that very thing, created an entire universe to accomplish that. Plan to have Jesus Christ born at just the right time 2000 years ago to live a perfect life, to be crucified by men as part of his prearranged plan. He orchestrated all, all of that so that the world could be forgiven. Now why do you suppose God, having gone to those lengths, would say, but it's okay if you're a Buddhist, if you're a Hindu, when he has gone to those lengths to secure salvation and he made that claim that we've talked about twice now, that he is the way, he is the truth, he is the life. Why would he just say whatever?

[Demarier Hawkins]

I believe all Christians should definitely understand what you have just explained to me. But I don't think maybe he hasn't had the reach to those different religions. I don't know how that's a fair,

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

that's a fair thought.

[Demarier Hawkins]

We are as Christians are supposed to try to spread his gospel and make him known and all that kind of stuff. But maybe we as Christians have failed him and not made it as renowned around the world. His religion as it should be, or our religion as it should be. But I just don't think that those other religions have the same train of thought that we do when it comes to why the earth was made and the logistics of the earth and the punishment and who is supposed to take on that sin, you know, now let's

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

say a Buddhist dies and he stands before the just judge and his books are opened and that Buddhist is just like you and me, a really bad sinner. Won't God say to the Buddhist, your sins aren't forgiven, I can't give you eternal life?

[Demarier Hawkins]

I believe that's how. I believe that's how it goes. If that was a leading question, then yes, that's how it goes. It's two way, it's a two way street for them. If you live the right life, you maybe go to heaven, I don't know what they call it. Or you would go to hell, you know. So I think if Jesus hadn't have come and paid for ourselves sins 2000 years ago, we would stand, we would face the same judgment as those other religions. But because our religion is so different, we can live the life we live and know that God loves us. He's a forgiving God. But that was all done and that's made possible through the fact that Jesus has already come and paid for our sins for us. Right?

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

Yeah. Let me ask one more question. If forgiveness is available because of what Jesus did, what must a man or woman do to receive that forgiveness? To have their sins washed away and the righteousness of Jesus credited to their account according to the Bible. There are two words that the Bible uses. What must you do to be saved? Do you know what the Bible says about that?

[Demarier Hawkins]

I do not. No, sir.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

First word begins with R. It means repent.

[Demarier Hawkins]

And the second word begins with what?

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

Well, either T or F. To have faith or trust Jesus Christ. So to turn from your sins, not to become perfect, but to say, you know what? I don't want that lifestyle anymore. My God died for me. I want Him. I don't want the pigsty anymore. I want the Savior. You turn from your sins with a contrite heart. You confess your sins to God, tell Him you're sorry, and you put your trust in his son and his son alone. And he promises that he will adopt you into his family, he will make you his child, and he will save you to the uttermost. You must repent and you must believe in Jesus Christ as if your eternity depended on it.

[Demarier Hawkins]

Yes, sir. Yes, sir.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

Du Maurier.

[Demarier Hawkins]

Yes, sir.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

Have you done that?

[Demarier Hawkins]

I have not done that further than being baptized as a young child. And every so now and then I feel like I do. It's when I know I've done something wrong. So I'm not consistently repenting and conveying my trust to Jesus as I should because I owe Him a lot more than he owes me.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

All right, let me. Let me, let me clarify this because I want to make sure that we're on the same page with this. Jesus said to a man named Nicodemus that unless a man is born again, he will not inherit the kingdom of God. Have you heard the term born again?

[Demarier Hawkins]

I have. I'm not 100% sure what it means,

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

but I heard Nicodemus didn't know either. Alright, if you're gonna be born again, you have to die.

[Demarier Hawkins]

Right?

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

God doesn't want you to end your life. God wants you to be crushed under the weight of.

[Fortis News Anchor]

Of the law.

[Demarier Hawkins]

Okay.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

To feel your complete abstract hopelessness because of the wicked things that you and I have done.

[Demarier Hawkins]

Okay.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

That we feel like we are undone, we are deserving of nothing but wrath. Completely humbled before God. That's what it means to die, to self. To let the laws of God. I was going after your conscience, remember?

[Demarier Hawkins]

Right.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

Let the laws of God just feel the burden of perfect thought life, perfect love, perfect obedience. Man, it's like the national debt. It's just ripping up there into the trillions.

[Demarier Hawkins]

Right? Right.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

I'm undone. I don't want any More of me. And God says when you reach that state and you call out to him for mercy, that's when he saves you. He makes you born again. Has that experience happened to you where you have come to the end of yourself? You knew you were a hellbound sinner and you put your trust in Jesus.

[Demarier Hawkins]

It was going good until you said it. Put my full trust in Jesus. I did reach a point about last year where I wanted to go down a different path. I think about this from time to time, that the only thing holding me back at this point is that I haven't put my full trust in Jesus at this point. But I do have this corrective thought process. I have repented. I know everything. All my shortcomings, not all of them, but I'm aware of the shortcomings that I did want to correct and everything. But I have not put my full trust in Jesus Christ yet. I do need to catch this bus, Right?

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

You know what? It was a real joy. Demarien. Thank you. Yeah. Oh, take that with. That's us. Okay, scoot.

[Demarier Hawkins]

Thank you so much. You have a wonderful rest of your day.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

Thank you very much. You're saying, Friel, you didn't get that guy saved? I say you're right because I can't. Nor can you. But God can. He's heard the truth. He's heard the law. He's heard the gospel. He's heard repentance. He's heard faith. I wanted to share with him a little something about justification and sanctification, but God determined that was enough. How do I know? Because that was enough. God wanted him to hear more. That bus wouldn't have shown up. Complete stranger sitting on a bench. How do you do? Pleasant, nice conversation. You can do this. Maybe you're not ready for this moment yet, but work toward this. It doesn't need to be a nasty scene. It doesn't need to be Armageddon with your neighbor. Love them. See them as lost. Not trying to win an argument. But I want these people to know. Know so that they can be saved. Let that fill your heart because you appreciate how much you have been saved. And God will grow you in that direction until you lovingly do what you've been commanded to do. Go and make disciples.

[Fortis News Anchor]

This is your daily Fortis news Break. I'm Gabriel Hughes filling in for Jimmy Hicks. A bombshell of a report came out yesterday and. Hold on, because this one is difficult for any decent human being to stomach. An independent report released by Restore Britain alleges that as many as 250,000 British girls have been subjected to rape, trafficking, torture and exploitation by migrant gangs. Nearly 90% of rape gang convictions are Muslim men, the report states. This scandal is one of the most horrific, horrendous failures in the history of the country. The report went on to say that victims were trafficked between cities, filmed for blackmail and forced into abortions, among many other horrors. It's stories like this that make it really easy to pray something like Psalm 37 Arise, O Lord, break the teeth of the wicked. President Donald Trump said he's ready to strike a ceasefire deal with Iran to be signed this Friday in Switzerland. The deal will open the Strait of Horizontal Hormuz without tolls in exchange for the US Ending its naval blockade against Iran. Gas prices have fallen a bit since the announcement was made. The famed director Steven Spielberg, known as the father of the summer blockbuster, recently said his new Alien movie, Disclosure Day would shake the faith of a lot of people. He said, what does this do to the fundamental beliefs that many of us have? Is God our God only on this planet or or for every system with a civilization? Well, the movie has done nothing to disturb anyone's faith. In fact, it's projected to be a bust. The movie had a $44 million opening weekend on a $115 million budget, not including $80 million spent on marketing. It has poor reviews among viewers who called the film boring. So apparently the only faith the movie is shaking is in Spielberg's ability to make a good movie. A recent review from the Wheatley Institute analyzed 1069 high quality studies on religion and health. What they found examining these studies is that people devoted to religion tend to have better health. The reason is not because faith replaces medicine, the review said. It's because religion tends to shape behavior and accountability. For example, the religiously devoted are 43 times less likely to fall into substance abuse and other substances destructive behaviors than those who claim to have no religion. Now, of course, having religion is not enough to save a person. The only way we can be forgiven our sins and have eternal life is by faith in Jesus Christ. If you have poor health because of destructive decisions you've made, it's not too late to turn to Jesus and He will make you new. But even without a survey to tell us, it's easy to tell that being obedient to God is a healthy way to live.

[Todd Friel]

Live.

[Fortis News Anchor]

That's your Fortis News break, a production of Fortis Institute Download Fortis or sign up to become a Fortis Insider. For exclusive daily content, go to fortisinstitute.org subscribe to Fortis News on your favorite podcast app. And until tomorrow, go serve your King.

[Todd Friel]

Know your church fathers. Polycarp was a disciple of the apostle John and the Bishop of Smyrna. He was a staunch defender of orthodoxy, combating the Gnostic heresies. Before his death as a martyr, Polycarp proclaimed, 86 years I have served Christ and he has done me no evil. How could I curse my King who saved me? This is Wretched Radio with Todd Friel.

[Interviewer / Host]

I say beautiful. What I really mean by that. In Georgia, that means humid and sweaty. So we've been toasty. Why are we not in the studio? Because we are out here on the campus because we receive permission to exercise our free speech rights to hand out this bad boy. It is the biggest question, a part of the biggest project. Don't know if you heard the news, but 900,000 of these DVDs have been distributed on college campuses across the US of A. And even as far away as Taipei. No kidding, 900,000. There's a group of people who are today handing out 600 of these at the campus here, all over the country. On this very day, 5,000 of these will be distributed. So we thought we'd stop by and

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

just talk to some folks.

[Interviewer / Host]

That's code for witness to them. Hey, lo and behold, you'll never guess who else happens to be here hoping to win people, too. A Jesus Christ. Not the Jesus Christ, but to a Jesus Christ who is here. The Mormons. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. They talk about Jesus. They talk about Jesus Christ a lot.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

There's just a little rub.

[Interviewer / Host]

Jesus said that if you don't understand him rightly, you don't have him. If you have a wrong understanding, bad theology or Christology is off. Then you don't know the father because you don't know the son rightly. So the Mormons talk about a Jesus who's different than the Jesus of the Bible. How? Let me count the ways. First of all, he's a created being. That's not what historical orthodoxy has taught over the centuries. The Mormons believe that Jesus Christ is actually literally the offspring of the Father who had a relationship with Mary and has given us Jesus Christ. They do not believe in the same Jesus that the Bible presents. And yet look at the dedication of these young men. They go out for two years to hit the road, ring on doorbells, walk around, drive their bikes all over the place. And all of that while wearing a white shirt and tie with a very Southern Baptist like Haircut. So I'm thinking to myself, maybe we could talk to one of them there Mormons who may or may not be willing to talk to us. For instance, they would like for you to read their. Hold on. Excuse me. I just. I have to get down with my bad self.

[Mormon Missionary 1]

Okay.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

Who walks around blaring their music?

[Interviewer / Host]

Well, apparently that guy, he wants the whole world to enjoy that. The Mormons won't take this literature. They want you to read theirs, but they are not allowed to read yours. Let's see if we can get one of these people. By the way, they've got a booth set up here. In fact, Adrian, can you come over here? We've got Let his life touch your life. It is an. It's an icon. It's a video of Jesus. And they're giving away free videos, too. Hey, what do you know? All right, gentlemen, who is the spokesperson? Could I talk to either one of you fellas? Or both? You can double team me. I want to genuinely learn about Mormonism. All right, so you are the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Tell me who Jesus is.

[Mormon Missionary 1]

He's our Lord and Savior and our Redeemer. And he's the one that died for us on the cross. So we can have the chance to live with God once more.

[Interviewer / Host]

So we can have a. Have a what?

[Mormon Missionary 1]

Have a chance to live with God once more.

[Interviewer / Host]

Okay, so is Jesus Christ a prophet? An apostle? Is he God?

[Mormon Missionary 1]

He's the Son of God. I believe that he is

[Fortis News Anchor]

the one

[Mormon Missionary 1]

that our Heavenly Father choose to come to this earth to fulfill our Heavenly Father's plan.

[Interviewer / Host]

Did Jesus Christ, according to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, always exist?

[Mormon Missionary 1]

Absolutely.

[Interviewer / Host]

So he's eternal?

[Mormon Missionary 1]

Absolutely.

[Interviewer / Host]

And how was he? How exactly do you believe he eternally existed? Here we go.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

Hold on.

[Mormon Missionary 2]

From the beginning of time. Of course. The scriptures say he is in the beginning. You know, he is the Word. He was the word with God.

[Interviewer / Host]

Was it at creation that he came into being?

[Mormon Missionary 2]

What would he mean by that?

[Interviewer / Host]

I thought you were referring to Genesis 1:1. And it sounded like. But you can correct me that Jesus was, at the beginning, created at the beginning. Did I hear you correctly?

[Mormon Missionary 2]

He was in the beginning.

[Interviewer / Host]

It was in the beginning. All right. Now, did he exist as the Son of God for all of eternity prior to in the beginning?

[Mormon Missionary 2]

What do you mean by that?

[Interviewer / Host]

Well, I presume Mormonism is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Trinitarian. Correct.

[Mormon Missionary 2]

So we believe that the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are three separate and distinct beings.

[Interviewer / Host]

Separate beings or separate Persons.

[Mormon Missionary 1]

Yeah.

[Interviewer / Host]

Well, actually, there could be a difference, depending on how you understand it. Separate beings would indicate that they are individual gods. I think that the idea that they are three persons would be. It's one God in three persons. Do you hear the difference?

[Mormon Missionary 2]

So I say if you were able to see God and Jesus Christ, I'd see two different persons.

[Interviewer / Host]

Well, I don't think you can see the Father because he's spirit. But there's a difference, I think, between beings which seems like an independent entity versus a person who's a member of the Trinity.

[Mormon Missionary 2]

Yeah. So I guess that's where we would have a difference of belief. We believe that the Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as yours and mine. We believe that the Son also has a body of flesh and bones, but the Holy Spirit does not have a body of flesh and bones so that it can dwell within us to teach us of truth.

[Interviewer / Host]

Now, the Father having a body, did he eternally exist?

[Mormon Missionary 2]

He did.

[Interviewer / Host]

How did he come into being if he's with his physical body? What was the process? What happened?

[Mormon Missionary 2]

I don't exactly know how God was created or if God was created. The scriptures don't teach us that. So what we understand is really that God teaches us that he's eternal.

[Interviewer / Host]

Okay, so he eternally existed. Did he eternally exist with flesh and bones, body?

[Mormon Missionary 2]

Scriptures don't teach us that either. So, I don't know.

[Interviewer / Host]

You said something kind of interesting to me. You said that Jesus Christ is your Lord and Savior so that you can have a chance to be with the Father. Do you believe that we only have a chance? That he provided a chance, or that he secured our presence with God for eternity?

[Mormon Missionary 1]

Well, he told us specifically in the Bible, if you love him, we have to keep his commandments by keeping his commandments, by following Jesus Christ. So as we shout our best to follow his commandments and follow his teaching, we can have the chance to really prepare ourselves to return to God once more.

[Interviewer / Host]

So we have a chance. So for me to go to heaven, what must I do?

[Mormon Missionary 1]

Well, you gotta apply his gospel by having faith in him, repentance for your sins, being baptized, receiving something called the gift of the Holy Ghost. And after you have all those things, you sham your best to live your life righteously. And baptism is a very essential part so we can have the opportunity to live with God once more.

[Interviewer / Host]

And it's living my life righteously. What standard. What is. Are you talking about perfect? Do I have to be perfect?

[Mormon Missionary 1]

Absolutely not. None of us are perfect. All of us are imperfect being. But we are shouting our absolute best to seek perfection on the earth at this time.

[Interviewer / Host]

All right. Now, I've heard a phrase that describes Mormon soteriology, salvation theology. And you can correct me if you think this statement is wrong, that we do our best and Jesus does the rest. Do you think that accurately represents what you were just saying?

[Mormon Missionary 1]

In a ways. But we need to put forward the effort. Because the Bible speaks faith without works are dead. And we're going to act upon the things that we're doing. And after, as we act upon the things, by asking God to help us in our life, he's going to play his part.

[Interviewer / Host]

Now, let me share with you what I think the order is, and then you tell me why you disagree.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

Fair enough.

[Interviewer / Host]

I believe that when Jesus Christ died fully God, fully man, it satisfied the judgment of God on my behalf. He was a propitiation. He bought us back. He ransomed us. And Ephesians 2, 8, 9. You'll have to trust me, but you can always look it up. Says, by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works. Lest any man should boast, right. So I believe we get saved, totally forgiven. We're made righteous. Heaven is secured, and because of that, we do works. That sounds different than what you were describing.

[Mormon Missionary 2]

Really, what we believe is that faith in Jesus Christ without action, there is no faith. We said before, faith without works is dead. Paul said it's through faith that we are saved. Jesus Christ declared that many, many times. He said, not all that say, Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of God, but him that doeth the will of my Father, which. Which is in heaven. If we are to have faith in Jesus Christ, we have to believe that he is the Son of God, with a belief that leads us to actually follow him.

[Interviewer / Host]

I don't think I would disagree with you. I think the difference might be that I believe that those works are motivated because of salvation. And it sounds like you're saying that's a requirement for salvation.

[Mormon Missionary 2]

I wouldn't say that the works are a requirement for salvation. Whether the works will be manifest if you have faith sufficient to be saved.

[Narrator / Advertiser]

A lot of us got handed a choice. We never agreed to faith on one side, reason on the other. So when talk turns to fossils or the age of the universe, you kind of feel that knot. You believe God's word, you just can't explain why. But that choice was a setup. The same God who gave us the Bible gave us the universe to study and truth doesn't argue with itself. The trouble was the assumptions, the ones smuggled in next to the evidence and taught as fact. It's why two people can look at the same fossil and walk away telling two different stories. But you sort the assumptions out and the science sits comfortably beside scripture. That's exactly what in the beginning with Dr. Jason Lyle is for. He's a PhD astronomy physicist who takes the hardest questions in science and makes them clear and biblical. New episodes of in the Beginning heard every Wednesday on every single podcast platform in existence or on the Fortis [e-mail] Thanks for listening to Wretched Radio today. Let me tell you about something we're all excited about Fortis. Our app. It's absolutely free of charge. And when I say free, I mean actually free. No subscriptions, no paywalls, no bait and switch, Nothing like that. That and you'll find hundreds, maybe even thousands of hours of audio and video content on theology, family, biblical counseling. And look, it's not static content. No, we're adding content every single day. Content that's Christ centered, and it's content that's at your fingertips for absolutely no charge. How do we keep that free? Well, it's not magic. It's gospel partners. These are people, men and women just like you, who believe in what we're doing at Fortis Institute so much that they have decided to link arms with us. And if that's you, if you've benefited from anything we've done here at Fortis Institute, would you consider linking arms with us as well? All you have to do right now is just get your questions answered and you can find Those [e-mail] Wretched Amazing Grace Amazing Gospel Most of us haven't really thought about persecution. Not the real kind, not the kind where following Jesus actually costs you something. But Christians throughout history have indeed faced it, and depending on where things are headed, we might too. So what does the Bible say you're supposed to do when the pressure mounts? That's exactly what our resource persecution is all about. It's teaching built on the Book of First Peter with historical context from the Fox's Book of Martyrs, you'll get a biblical framework for faithfulness when things aren't easy anymore. Fix your hope on heaven, grow in holiness and see. Submit to authority unless they tell you to sin and keep proclaiming the gospel anyway. This is honest teaching and it's more timely than any of us may want to admit persecution. Available now on Fortis Plus. Download the app for free on your smartphone, on your smart TV or just simply go to fortisplus.org.

[Todd Friel]

Titles of Christ in the Bible. Jesus is given many titles that teach us about who he is and what he has done. Jesus is called God and Saviour. If Jesus were only human, his death could not have paid our debt. But Jesus is both man and God, able to represent us, yet able to bear the wrath of the Father. This is Wretched Radio with talk.

[Interviewer / Host]

Now, gentlemen, I want to kind of move away from theology just for a moment because I have to applaud you for your willingness to come out here and do this. Why do you do it?

[Mormon Missionary 1]

Why do I? I come to civil mission is because I really want to help my brothers and sisters understand how Jesus Christ and our Heavenly Father loves us and how he's so excited for us to return to live with him once more. And so many people in the world right now don't understand what they can do to live with our Father in heaven once more. And as Jesus Christ said, go ye therefore teaching all nations and baptizing them in the Father and in his name and in the Holy Spirit name as well. And we are striving our best to fulfill his great commission so we can really see what we can do to help our brothers and sisters.

[Interviewer / Host]

Two years is the commitment, right? How often do you get to see your family during those two years?

[Mormon Missionary 2]

Once a week we will email our family back home and then twice a year on Christmas Day and Mother's Day, we'll Skype or video chat.

[Interviewer / Host]

But that's it.

[Mormon Missionary 2]

That's it.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

All right, what's.

[Interviewer / Host]

I'm sure somebody thought this through. Why is that the rule? What are they trying to do for you to you by limiting your access to your family?

[Mormon Missionary 2]

I think a good example would be Jesus Christ. I know we're trying to stay away from theology here.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

Don't worry, I don't mind.

[Mormon Missionary 2]

I remember of Jesus Christ is saying that we got a no man setting his hand to the plow and looking back is fit for the kingdom of God. You know, I've set these two years aside to help other people build their families, build the strength of their families and their love of the Lord. And by leaving mine behind for two years that I'll always be able to go back and I love my family dearly.

[Interviewer / Host]

So if somebody who thought about becoming a Mormon, would I be required to do a two year missions trip?

[Mormon Missionary 2]

You would not?

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

No, because I'm too old.

[Interviewer / Host]

Go ahead, just say it.

[Mormon Missionary 2]

Absolutely not. Actually. So you can do a two Year mission trip as a senior couple. But you're not actually required, no matter the age.

[Interviewer / Host]

I was just called a senior couple.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

That kind of hurt.

[Interviewer / Host]

You could have called me old, but a senior couple. How long have you been out?

[Mormon Missionary 1]

I've been out 18 months.

[Interviewer / Host]

18 months. All right, you're on your way there. And you.

[Mormon Missionary 2]

About 21.

[Interviewer / Host]

How many people have said to you, I want to become a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?

[Mormon Missionary 2]

I can't count. Maybe over a hundred.

[Fortis News Anchor]

Really?

[Interviewer / Host]

How many people do you talk to in a day?

[Mormon Missionary 2]

I'd like to talk to over 100 a day. Genuine conversations. I'm out here. It's a, you know, it's. You can see it's a wonderful area, wonderful opportunity to chat with everyone.

[Interviewer / Host]

It's fishing in a barrel here, right?

[Mormon Missionary 2]

Absolutely.

[Interviewer / Host]

Very impressive. Now, let's return to theology just for a moment, shall we? In the New Testament, an apostle was an apostle. One of the qualifications was that he had an encounter with the resurrected Christ. Paul. Seeing him on the road to. Emma, on the road to. It's a. It's a Hope and Crosby movie, the Road to Damascus. And the disciples, of course, they saw the resurrected Jesus. That was a qualification for being an apostle. Do your prophets and apostles have to have an encounter with Jesus Christ to be qualified for that office?

[Mormon Missionary 2]

We believe that the apostles that we have are special witnesses of Christ. Just as Christ, before he was resurrected, had called twelve apostles, that he chose them, we believe that he chooses them today and that as special witnesses, they know who he is. And some of them have even seen him.

[Interviewer / Host]

So some have claimed to see him. Okay, so prior to 1830, who were the prophets and apostles of the church from the time of the resurrection till 1830?

[Mormon Missionary 1]

So we have Peter. He was one of the last prophets. When Jesus Christ left, he told him to go and teach the Gospel. And you can see that Peter was crucified, and his apostle as well was crucified as well. And from that. That when in 1830, Joseph Smith, he was called to be a prophet. But he wasn't the founder or the one that created the church. He was the instrument that God used.

[Interviewer / Host]

But who is between Peter and Joseph Smith?

[Mormon Missionary 1]

It was the brick of Friday.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

Okay.

[Interviewer / Host]

All right. Now, I've also. My understanding is, and you correct me if I'm wrong, there are three levels of heaven. Celestial, telestial, and terrestrial. And depending on how you do on earth, will determine what level of eternity you inherit. Is that okay to say it that way?

[Mormon Missionary 2]

I suppose that's an okay, way to put it. It's left for interpretation of what you believe heaven is. There may be three levels, but only in the highest level can you actually reside with God and Jesus Christ. And if heaven to you is a place where God and Jesus Christ is, then only the top would be heaven. But I would say, rather than how you do in life, it's really where you would be most comfortable. God, he wants us to live in a place in which we will be at most peace. And for those that chose not to live righteously in this life will not feel comfortable.

[Interviewer / Host]

I get that. So it sounds again, though, my performance is going to determine where I spend eternity. Is that correct?

[Mormon Missionary 2]

I'd say where we feel most comfortable based on how we performed in this life.

[Interviewer / Host]

Do you remember the Bible verse that I shared with you a couple of moments ago? Ephesians 2, 8, 9. I'll say it again and then you tell me how you interpret that verse.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

Fair enough.

[Interviewer / Host]

By grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is a gift of God, not of works. Lest any man should boast. How do you harmonize what seems to be a pretty clear teaching of no works are credited to your account. It is all the work of Jesus Grace alone as a gift.

[Mormon Missionary 2]

I would say the only thing you truly have to do is have faith. Through faith you are saved. If your faith isn't sufficient enough to be saved, then God has prepared a place for you to live, which is marvelous, which is beautiful, which is better than here than earth, somewhere that you can live.

[Interviewer / Host]

Okay, but just help me out a little bit. The idea that Jesus Christ did everything and we don't bring any works with us, like a resume to say, this is what I've done, I get to go here. Because that would mean we get to say I did pretty good. And that would rob God of the glory that he deserves for sending His Son. So harmonize what you're describing as works with this concept in Ephesians 2, 8,

[Mormon Missionary 1]

9, but specifically for, like, my life as well. I had to act upon the things that I was doing because I had faith without acting by reading my Scriptures daily or acting to go to church, or acting to pray to God. That is an act of faith. And as we act by shaving our best to live our life as righteously as possible, we can have the opportunity to really receive the guidance and the blessing from our Heavenly Father. We're not going to work for our salvation, but it's very important to increase our faith by doing the things that God would expect. Us to do.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

Now, one last thing, fellas.

[Interviewer / Host]

Maybe two last things. I've heard that. And you tell me if this is accurate, that if I'm a faithful Mormon doing works of righteousness, that one day I could be like God the Father and have my own universe.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

Is that accurate?

[Mormon Missionary 2]

It's a beautiful doctrine, isn't it? The fact that God.

[Interviewer / Host]

What is that doctrine called?

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

I'm curious.

[Mormon Missionary 2]

I guess the doctrine of exaltation.

[Interviewer / Host]

So we can be exalted to the same level as God the Father.

[Mormon Missionary 2]

I'd say absolutely. However, he will still always be our Father. He will still always be our God.

[Interviewer / Host]

So you then someday might have a universe where you've got people like us that you are the God of. Is that correct?

[Mormon Missionary 2]

I believe so.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

One last question, and you can pass

[Interviewer / Host]

on this one because I'm fuzzy on this, all right? But as long as you're standing here, as best I can tell, you're a black man. I think the doctrine of the Mormon Church has changed regarding the thinking about black people.

[Mormon Missionary 1]

So that was a thing that would pass in the 1800s that was speaking about blacks cannot hold the priesthood. But it wasn't saying that black people cannot join the church. It's just we couldn't hold the priesthood. I have so many times in the Bible as well, too, that people in the Bible was not supposed to get baptized in a sense and stuff, too. So, like, as time goes by, a guy named the Prophet was Brigham Young. He prayed to God and asked God if you think blacks should get a priesthood. And God told him no. And that's not a bad thing at all. But as time goes by, the blacks could have the opportunity to receive the priesthood as well, too.

[Interviewer / Host]

If Brigham Young asked God, what is the role of black people regarding the temple at that time, no priesthood, then that changed in 19 some. What?

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

1970.

[Mormon Missionary 2]

1970, I think.

[Interviewer / Host]

Okay, why did God change his mind?

[Mormon Missionary 2]

That's a good question. I wonder why he changed his mind too, if you want to use that terminology. Previously, he only allowed the Levites to hold the priesthood, and eventually he allowed everyone. At times he only allowed Moses or Aaron to hold the higher priesthood. So he does change sometimes.

[Interviewer / Host]

Do you believe that that changes God? That he change his position?

[Mormon Missionary 2]

So maybe I should rephrase that. He does change. Sometimes he changes his plan for us or he alters his plan for us based on what will allow us the most happiness and the most perfection or to at least the most. The best pathway towards perfection. You know, he doesn't change as in his truth or his belief that he is perfect.

[Interviewer / Host]

Okay, so God is all of omnipotent and omniscient. So he knows everything. He knew this conversation was going to happen.

[Demarier Hawkins]

Uh huh.

[Mormon Missionary 2]

He absolutely did.

[Interviewer / Host]

Do we have a free will? Are we making genuine decisions?

[Mormon Missionary 2]

I believe so. We are. God has blessed us with one of the greatest gifts in this world. The only gift which he cannot take away, which is our free will, our free agency to choose between good and evil.

[Interviewer / Host]

All right, gentlemen, we're out here passing out a dvd. Sort of like you guys. It looks like you've got videos. Are you allowed to take this from me?

[Mormon Missionary 2]

Yeah, absolutely, we can take it from you.

[Interviewer / Host]

Would you watch it?

[Mormon Missionary 2]

I might watch it one day.

[Interviewer / Host]

Really?

[Mormon Missionary 2]

What is it about?

[Interviewer / Host]

It's about the gospel. Yeah, it's about the gospel.

[Mormon Missionary 1]

Well, I will watch it when I get back home after my mission. Or we can make a trade. We can give you a Book of Mormon for the city.

[Interviewer / Host]

I will take it.

[Demarier Hawkins]

Absolutely.

[Interviewer / Host]

Gentlemen, thank you.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

You're a gentleman and I appreciate, appreciate it. Thanks for the lesson.

[Interviewer / Host]

Appreciate it very much.

[Interviewer / Host (possibly same as D)]

All right, until next time, go serve your king.