Witness Wednesday: Chance Creation, The Problem Of Evil, & Catholic Doubts

Summary

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Wretched Radio with Todd Friel

Episode: Witness Wednesday: Chance Creation, The Problem Of Evil, & Catholic Doubts
Date: April 1, 2026

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Episode Overview

This “Witness Wednesday” episode of Wretched Radio, hosted by Todd Friel via the Fortis Institute, focuses on live street evangelism encounters at a college campus. Through conversations with students from varied religious backgrounds, the episode tackles foundational questions about God’s existence, creation, the nature of truth, the problem of evil, and doubts rooted in postmodern and Catholic contexts. The discussions aim to illuminate Christian doctrine—including sin, justice, and grace—while modeling approaches to evangelism in secular and spiritually mixed academic settings.

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Table of Contents

1. Key Discussion Points & Insights
   • Segment 1: Postmodernism, Creation, and Relativism (with Taj)
   • Segment 2: Creation by Chance and Justice (with Peyton)
   • Segment 3: Gospel Framing & Catholic Doubt (with Tiernan)
2. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
3. Timestamps for Important Segments

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<a name="discussion"></a>

Key Discussion Points & Insights

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Segment 1: Postmodernism, Creation, and Relativism

Conversation with Taj (00:40–11:30)

Themes Explored

• Relativism about God and truth
• The meaning and impact of Christian moral teaching
• Guilt, conscience, and understanding justice
• Explaining the Christian gospel in the face of indifference and skepticism

Breakdown

• Relativism About God:

  • Taj is comfortable with ambiguous or subjectivist beliefs ("The Most High is whoever you want it to be."—01:18). He resists making direct truth claims about Jesus’ divinity, contrasting religious truth with objective historical facts.

• Practical Morality vs. Doctrinal Truth:

  • Taj values "being a good person" over doctrinal specifics. He affirms that moral behavior matters more than propositional truth ("If you're morally doing the right things...you understand what's right from wrong."—02:25).

• The Law, Guilt, and Justice:

  • The apologist draws the parallel between earthly justice and God’s justice, applying Ten Commandments as a test for guilt. Both interviewer and Taj acknowledge personal guilt according to biblical moral standards (05:01).

• Consequences and Atonement:

  • Taj half-jokes about hoping "they serve beer in hell" (06:18), leading the apologist to clarify the biblical view of hell as deprivation and punishment.
  • Forgiveness: Taj guesses that forgiveness means God lets the guilty go, but the apologist explains that “just letting guilty people go” would not be justice. Instead, a penalty must be paid, introducing the need for substitutionary atonement (07:32).

• Cross and Response:

  • The biblical account of Christ’s death and resurrection is summarized as the mechanism for satisfying justice (08:22–09:27).
  • Taj hesitantly acknowledges the narrative but cannot decisively affirm its truth for himself, reflecting postmodern doubt and indifference ("Honestly, man, like you were talking for a long time, your words were big, so I kind of lost you."—09:44). He doubts the reliability of biblical miracles and prefers extracting moral lessons from religious texts (10:30–11:16).

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Segment 2: Creation by Chance, Logic, and the Problem of Evil

Conversation with Peyton (15:31–25:55)

Themes Explored

• Intelligent design vs. chance creation
• Moral law and personal accountability
• Problem of evil and divine justice
• Authenticity of biblical texts and belief

Breakdown

• Creation & Intelligent Design:

  • The apologist uses computer programming as an analogy for intelligent design: code requires a coder, just as the universe’s order implies a designer (15:41–16:16).
  • Peyton struggles to apply this logic consistently, at one point affirming “chance” for the universe, but “programmer” for software (16:37).

• God, Evil, and Accountability:

  • Peyton questions the justice of God in a world where there is so much evil (17:45).
  • The conversation shifts to personal morality, using the Ten Commandments to establish universal guilt (19:01).
  • On judgment: Peyton prefers to think he’ll go to heaven because of doing “more good than bad” (20:02), leading to an analogy about earthly justice and the irrelevance of good deeds in the face of criminal guilt (21:06–21:27).

• Gospel Message & Authenticity:

  • Peyton recalls the Christian teaching (“He died on the cross for our sins.”—21:57) but doesn’t commit to its truth (“I don’t think we can answer that question.”—22:14), expressing "telephone game" skepticism about scriptural transmission.
  • The apologist explains textual criticism, affirming the Bible’s historical reliability while separating transmission accuracy from the claim of truth (23:41).
  • Peyton is left to ponder, with encouragement to read the Bible and reflect on Christ’s unique claim and offer of grace (24:49–25:45).

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Segment 3: Gospel Framing & Catholic Doubt

Conversation with Tiernan (31:37–54:15)

Themes Explored

• Catholic heritage and agnosticism
• Disillusionment with institutional religion
• Gospel presentation as “the greatest possible God”
• The problem of evil and emotional struggle
• The “rewiring” of the mind through faith

Breakdown

• Background & Catholic Doubts:

  • Tiernan, originally from Ireland and educated in Catholic schools, expresses doubts rooted in perceiving the church’s history as politically motivated, and struggling with the “pick and choose” approach to doctrine (33:15).

• Faith vs. Thinking:

  • A Catholic teacher once encouraged Tiernan to “be agnostic and explore” (31:59). He remains open but deeply uncertain.

• The "Greatest God" Thought Experiment:

  • The apologist applies Blaise Pascal’s strategy: Would you want a God who offers forgiveness, erases shame, gives purpose and hope, if such a God truly exists? (35:30–37:10).
  • Tiernan affirms openness to this God (“Yes, he would, and he still is, in my opinion.”—37:10).

• Guilt, Conscience, and the Gospel:

  • The apologist connects conscience, guilt, and the gospel—the cross as God’s ultimate response to the human condition (38:19–40:00).

• The Problem of Evil:

  • Asked about his main objection, Tiernan cites the chaos and suffering in the world as a hurdle (45:20). The apologist responds with the biblical narrative: Creation was “good,” evil entered through human sin, and the current brokenness is a result of “the curse” (46:08–46:32).
  • Tiernan finds this explanation compelling and new (“That is a really good explanation. That is a really good argument for it.”—46:51).

• Rewiring the Mind and Gospel Challenge:

  • Closing challenge: faith in Christ is described as a “rewiring of the brain” that brings peace and joy, contrasted with anxiety in secular life (48:56–51:22).
  • Tiernan commits to read the Gospel of Matthew and weigh the distinctive claims of Christianity (54:15).

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<a name="quotes"></a>

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Relativism & Truth:

• "The Most High is whoever you wanted to be. ...I'm not going to tell you who you think it is." —Taj (01:18)
• “So if I said to you that garbage can over there is the most high, you'd be willing to say, dude, you're wrong.”—Apologist (01:53)
• “If you want to hear God speak to you, read your Bible. If you want to hear God speak to you audibly, read it out loud.”—Apologist Assistant (00:28)

On Sin and Judgment:

• “You're a criminal. You've got a fine to pay. Jesus paid it for you. That's true or false for me? No. ...So that didn't happen. Jesus didn't die on a cross for sinners.”—Apologist & Taj (09:55–10:10)
• “I hope they serve beer in hell." —Taj (06:18)
• “I think Christianity harmoniously explains what we observe and what we experience and it takes care of all of those issues for you." —Apologist (47:22)

On the Problem of Evil:

• “Why are there like so much...so much bad stuff in the world?” —Peyton (17:45)
• “We see beauty because God made the place. We see evil because we brought it on ourselves. ...That's the only worldview that harmonizes those two things.” —Apologist (46:32)

On Faith and Doubt:

• “I would, yeah. But the words that you use there—if that's true—is what I'm trying to find.” —Tiernan (44:51)

On Emotional & Mental Health:

• “That analogy really clicks and I actually think after this I might...look into it. ...It seems like those toxic thoughts that a lot of my friends who aren't in religion...the way they view the world...” —Tiernan (50:28)

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<a name="timestamps"></a>

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:40–11:30 — Conversation with Taj: Relativism, creation, sin, and the meaning of Christ’s sacrifice.
• 15:31–25:55 — Conversation with Peyton: Design vs. chance, evil, judgment, the gospel, and reliability of Christian texts.
• 31:37–54:15 — Conversation with Tiernan: Catholic doubts, gospel presentation as ‘the greatest possible God’, the problem of evil, and faith’s transformative potential.

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Summary & Takeaways

This Witness Wednesday episode offers a nuanced and practical look at engaging young adults who are skeptical, culturally Christian, or struggling with inherited faith traditions. The apologists use reason, analogy, and pastoral care, always circling back to the distinct doctrine of substitutionary atonement in Christ. The episode models evangelistic conversations that are not only intellectually honest but also emotionally sensitive to questions of conscience, doubt, and mental health.

As Todd Friel concludes, such gospel framing—focused on the “greatest possible God”—might not guarantee immediate conversions, but could foster open dialogue and plant seeds for later reflection.

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For further listening or to explore these resources, visit Fortis Plus (fortisplus.org) or search ‘Wretched Radio’ on your favorite podcast app.

Transcript

[Todd Friel]

Wretched radio begins in 3, 2, 1.

[Tiernan]

God told me to tell you this.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

That's paganism.

[Tiernan]

Do you really expect and anticipate that

[Narrator/Announcer]

the divine voice of God can be heard by you?

[Apologist Assistant]

That's horoscope reading, standing in the office

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

of the prophet of God.

[Narrator/Commentator]

That's reading. Tea leaves can't have a relationship to

[Host/Commentator]

God if you can't hear God.

[Narrator/Announcer]

That is not biblical Christianity.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

You want to hear God speak to

[Apologist Assistant]

you, read your Bible.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

If you want to hear God speak

[Apologist Assistant]

to you audibly, read it out loud.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

I promise you, 100% guaranteed you will hear him speak.

[Todd Friel]

It's time for Wretched Radio with Todd Friel.

[Host/Commentator]

Christian education does not mean Christian salvation. This is Wretched Radio on a Witness Wednesday. Prepare to meet Tash from a Christian home, attending a Christian school, but these days, a whole lot more postmodern.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Why is there something instead of nothing?

[Taj]

Why is there something instead of nothing? Because that's how it was made. And we just got to accept that fact.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

All right? The universe was made.

[Apologist Assistant]

Who made it?

[Taj]

The Most High.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

And who is that?

[Taj]

That's whoever you wanted to be. You know, I'm not going to tell you who you think it is, but in my eyes, it's just the most powerful, the most high, the one who put us all here.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Did you just tell me I can believe the most high is anything I want it to be?

[Taj]

I mean, I'm not here to make your decisions for you, so if you want to believe the most, highest, whatever, go for it.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

I think you are the most high. Am I correct?

[Taj]

You're not correct.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Okay, so I can't believe anything is the most high.

[Taj]

I mean, you can. I'd just be wrong, I guess. Yeah.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

So you're willing to. Okay, so if I said to you that garbage can over there is the most high, you'd be willing to say, dude, you're wrong.

[Taj]

I wouldn't make a comment on it because it's not something I care about that much.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

I'm a Christian, so let's just say I said I think the most high is Jesus Christ. Would you tell me I'm wrong?

[Taj]

I wouldn't.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Would you tell me I'm right?

[Taj]

I wouldn't.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Hmm. So I'm going to try to make a truth claim that will either be true or false. Jesus is God. True or false?

[Taj]

That depends on how you look at it. If it's you, it's true. You know what I'm saying? In my eyes, it's not about what you believe is the person you are. If you're morally doing the right things. You understand what's right from wrong.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Abraham Lincoln was the 16th president of the United States. True or false?

[Taj]

True.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

George Washington was the first President of the United States. True or false?

[Taj]

True.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Jesus Christ is God. True or false?

[Taj]

I'm not going to answer that.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Alright, so let me just ask you a question then on a personal level. The story of Christ and Christianity, do

[Apologist Assistant]

you know what it is?

[Taj]

No, I don't. I mean, I went to like a Christian school for a little bit and we were taught like the basic things.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

How many years did you go to that school?

[Taj]

A lot.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

And they didn't tell you the story of Jesus Christ?

[Taj]

I mean, they did, but like that's where I chose to not listen because.

[Apologist Assistant]

All right, well, let me see if

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

you'll just lend me your ear for just a moment, see if this rings a bell.

[Apologist Assistant]

And then I'm going to ask you

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

one last time if it's true or not. So just prepare yourself for it. All right, here's what I intuit. I see a bunch of stuff. There's a stuff maker. I've got a conscience. That little courtroom in my brain that says, I have not been a good boy, I've done bad things. And I've got a concern about the afterlife. That when I die, things aren't looking up for me because I haven't lived the way that I know that I should have been living. Are you tracking with me so far?

[Taj]

Yeah, I see what you're saying.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

So God, according to the Bible, is the unmoved mover. He's the one who created everything, you and me, your eyes, those plants, Everything.

[Apologist Assistant]

Everything.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

He created everything. So he has ownership rights within the Bible? That's correct, yeah. So I'm just sharing with you what the Bible says. So he's got ownership rights on you and me and everybody here on campus, everywhere on the globe. He owns everything. And God, in a sense, is like our earthly court system because he is just and he is righteous. He's going to judge everybody for their law breaking. So the question is, what are God's laws? Do you remember that from going to Christian school?

[Taj]

No.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Let's just call it the Ten Commandments. Right. So here's my question for you. And I want to say this. Right, Tash. Right, Tash.

[Apologist Assistant]

Tash with the T. All right, Taj.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Have you ever told a lie?

[Taj]

Yes.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Stolen anything?

[Taj]

Yes.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Looked at a woman with lust?

[Taj]

Yes.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Taken God's name in vain? Used his name, lowly omg. To express disgust or anger?

[Taj]

Yes.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Okay, so I just went through, I think, four commandments.

[Taj]

Can I ask you some?

[Apologist Assistant]

Yes, sir.

[Taj]

Have you done the same?

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Dude, I got you whooped. I'm sure I've told more lies than you. I'm sure I've looked with all of it. I have. Absolutely.

[Taj]

A little bit older than me.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Just a touch. Regardless, I have no problem admitting that because I know it's true. So now the question is, you die, I die. We are taken into God's courtroom. He's sitting on the bench, the books are open on Taj's life, and he knows everything. I mean, the stuff you don't want your parents to know, stuff you don't want anybody on campus to know. Your thought life. He's got it recorded. So now he's just. And he's righteous, and he doesn't like law breaking. And because he is just, he must punish lawbreakers. Taj, would God find you innocent or guilty?

[Taj]

He would find me guilty.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

So if God is just, what should God do with you? Should he send you to heaven or should he send you to hell?

[Taj]

Well, I mean, I hope they serve beer in hell.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Well, according to the Bible, they don't. In fact, it describes that it's thirst. I don't know if you ever seen somebody, like, not having water for days and weeks. Your tongue swells up, sticks to the roof. It's really horrible.

[Taj]

It can't be good.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Yeah. So there's not even a drop of water for you in hell. So the question, though, that you evaded was, are you going there?

[Taj]

I mean, I implied I was. I mean, yeah, if. If that was the case, I would be going.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

All right, now I'm gonna dip back into your Christian school upbringing. What did God do so that sinners like you and me don't have to go to hell? What did he do so that your court case could be dismissed?

[Taj]

I mean, I guess forgive them. Like he forgave.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Okay, that's kind of in there. But here's the problem, though, all right? Let's just say you get hauled into a court here on earth, you're guilty. The judge knows it, you are going down. And the judge just says, but I'm going to let him go. He wouldn't be a just judge, would he? He'd be unjust because he's not upholding the laws, Correct?

[Taj]

Correct.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

So if God just forgives, he'd be unjust and he's not unjust. So we need a mechanism. You've got a fine. It's got to be paid. Who paid Your fine, Taj.

[Taj]

Me?

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

How I work for it, How I

[Taj]

work at a job.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Yeah, but who's gonna pay your fine to God.

[Taj]

To God? What's the fine held? I guess me.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

How are you gonna get your court case dismissed? You've got a debt to God, how are you gonna pay it?

[Taj]

I guess I'm gonna have to do some time.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

You'd have to do some time and that is our problem. We'd have to do time and it's an eternity in hell. Alright, so I'll tell you and then here's. I'm gonna ask you that truth question. Jesus Christ claimed to be God.

[Apologist Assistant]

So fully human.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Fully God.

[Apologist Assistant]

He came to this earth to keep

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

all of the laws because you and I can't.

[Apologist Assistant]

And then he was beaten by men.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

He was hung on a cross. He was receiving the wrath of God on himself, even though he committed no sins because there was something happening on the cross. God was satisfying his wrath by pouring out his punishment on Jesus Christ so that sinners could be forgiven. So that if sinners will repent, put their trust in Jesus Christ, God will forgive all of their sins and he will credit all of the goodness that Jesus performed to that person. So that the person can be just and be made righteous. So that God can be just by satisfying the debt, he paid it on your behalf. That is what Jesus Christ did for sinners. Now here's the question, and you're not going to offend anybody. Is that true or false?

[Taj]

What you just said? That's true, right? So what up? From what I know, yeah, that's true.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

So that's. That was big of you to say that, right?

[Taj]

I mean, not really. I just kind of agreed with what you said.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Are you just patronizing me?

[Taj]

No, not at all. I mean, it just. Honestly, man, like you were talking for a long time, your worries were big, so I kind of lost you.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

I'm sorry for that.

[Taj]

You're good. You're good.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

You're a criminal. You've got to find a pay. Jesus paid it for you. That's true or false for me. No. Okay, it's false. So that didn't happen. Jesus didn't die on a cross for sinners.

[Taj]

Not for me.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Well, I think you're kind of reverting back to your belief, making it true or not. Okay, my belief does not make the garbage can God.

[Taj]

Yeah, but are you saying like he died on a cross and then like there's documentation for that?

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Well, the documentation is the Bible.

[Taj]

The Bible. Well, I mean the Bible talks a Lot of crazy things.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Like what?

[Taj]

So does. I mean, every, every religious text talks crazy, you know, I'm saying with stories that you just think are not even, like, real sometimes.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Yeah, I, I understand how you would think that, but if God created the universe, he can do miracles, right?

[Taj]

Sure. But, like, you know, to me, it's not really what the stories, like, are about. It's more like what the, like, more of the story is, you know what I'm saying? Like, I don't really necessarily look at like, oh, this man brought like hella animals on his ship. And then like, you know what I'm saying? Saying what Moses story? Right, like this. It's more of just like, you know, you gotta read between the lines.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

All right, well, Taj, you've been very generous with your time. I just dumped a whole lot of stuff on you. Right, well, you know, that's good then. All right, so we depart, friends.

[Narrator/Announcer]

You know those really big questions you get when your kid comes home from college? Do you know the ones about whether God exists, if the Bible can be trusted, why there's evil in the world,

[Narrator/Commentator]

or what's wrong with everybody?

[Narrator/Announcer]

Everyone else's view on sexuality? Yeah, those. Road trip to Truth doesn't dodge them. This resource is hosted by John Ferbarez, and it goes straight to college campuses and talks to students who are asking these very same questions. But it doesn't just stop there. No, no. Then there are the experts that give the real answers with topics like science and faith, pornography, social media and mental health, critical race theory, marriage, eternity. And that's not even the half of it. If you have teenagers, this is the stuff they need to hear before the world gives them its version. And if you don't have teenagers, you'll still learn something. Road trip to Truth, all four seasons, available right now on Fortis for free. Download it now. Where you download apps on your smartphone, your smart TV, or just simply go to fortisplus.org.

[Host/Commentator]

is it possible a Christian university can actually be ranked high when it comes to. To preparing students for the real world? The hat tip to Masters University.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

You want to send your kids someplace where they actually still teach the Bible, not just based on a document that

[Host/Commentator]

they may be having a file cabinet someplace, but they actually use the Bible there. The education at the master's university, not

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

only biblical, but oh, so practical courses,

[Host/Commentator]

diplomas, degrees, they can be achieved online or of course, on their beautiful campus in Southern California.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Would you like to learn more about the master's university to prepare you or

[Host/Commentator]

your child for the future. I encourage you to visit Masters Edu. Wretched. Masters Edu. Wretched.

[Narrator/Commentator]

So we decided to run the gospel

[Narrator/Announcer]

through a Focus groove. And they loved the part about love. Then came the notes.

[Narrator/Commentator]

Sin sounds a little bit harsh.

[Narrator/Announcer]

So they suggested we call it personal brokenness. Hell.

[Narrator/Commentator]

Well, that's a big negative.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Maybe spiritual separation, saying Jesus is the only way, that's just intolerant. You have to make him one of many meaningful paths.

[Narrator/Commentator]

And the call to repent and believe,

[Narrator/Announcer]

that just raises a little bit of friction. How about like and subscribe? We thank them for their time and kept the message. If you're done rounding off the edges, Witness Wednesday here at Wretched Radio. We'll help you share the real gospel. A holy God, real sin, a just wrath, a crucified and risen Savior, and a clear call to repent and believe. And we'll do it kindly, clearly and without the sales pitch. It's Witness Wednesday on Wretched Radio. You can listen to your heart's [e-mail].

[Todd Friel]

Know your church fathers. Jerome was a 4th century Christian theologian and one of the original four Doctors of the church. His most important work was the Latin Vulgate, a translation of the scriptures from Hebrew and Greek into Latin, the vernacular of his day. The Vulgate remained the preeminent translation of the Bible for a millennium. This is Wretched Radio with Todd Friel.

[Host/Commentator]

Which comes first, faith or thinking? This is Wretched Radio. It seems that good thinking must precede good believing. You gotta get the facts straight before you can believe correctly. That seems to be the way that it is, but that is not the way the Bible describes it.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

And I believe the young man you're

[Host/Commentator]

about to meet proves that an individual must have their believing changed before their thinking can be improved. Case in point, meet Peyton.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Those programs that run the computer. I'm going to try to persuade you. Nobody wrote them. They all happen by themselves. You ready?

[Peyton]

You can try.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Well, it's taken billions of years, but a bunch of materials got together. A lot of time, a lot of chance, but they got together in just the right order to convey the right information to communicate to the computer. I believe that computer programs happened all by themselves. Do you think I'm right or wrong?

[Peyton]

Incorrect.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

How come you think I'm wrong?

[Peyton]

Well, we can see people programming.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

I'll go a step further. I don't need to see anybody program it. I know that it's programmed because it's intelligent information in a correct order, rightly designed, communicating to somebody that can understand the information. And that had to come from somebody who's intelligent?

[Peyton]

Yes.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Who do you think made the universe, Peyton?

[Peyton]

I don't think there's any way to answer that question.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

How's about nothing created? Everything it got together over the course of billions of years. It just happened. All of the intelligence that we see, just luck. Time. Chance. It happened by itself, Right? Wrong or incorrect?

[Peyton]

I say that's right. It's just chance.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Now wait a second. You just told me a computer program didn't write itself, but you're telling me this took care of itself?

[Peyton]

I guess, Yeah. I can see where the discrepancy is. Yeah. I just say it's chance.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Okay, but how's about we can at least conclude there has to be somebody who made it?

[Peyton]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Something intelligent.

[Peyton]

Intelligent, sure.

[Taj]

All right.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

How's about God?

[Peyton]

I don't know. There had to be something. I guess you could call it God.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Something created. Because we see intelligence ordered. And there had to be somebody to communicate that intelligence and order it and design it just like a computer program. Otherwise there'd be really nothing.

[Peyton]

I guess.

[Apologist Assistant]

So.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

I think we've got agreement. There is a God. Fair enough.

[Peyton]

We can use that term.

[Apologist Assistant]

Yeah. Now the question is, who might that God be?

[Peyton]

I don't know.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

I'm gonna give it a shot. I think there's a creator because there's a creation. I think the creation tells us a limited number of things about the creator. He's big, he's powerful, he's creative, he's artistic, he's just. I believe that God is defined best in the Bible.

[Peyton]

No.

[Host/Commentator]

Why?

[Peyton]

Because you're just saying he's a just God. Yes. He created everything? Yes. So why are there like so much? Wasn't so much bad stuff in the world?

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

That's a great question. I'll give it a go. But I want to ask you a question about that badness. Do you think you're a bad person?

[Peyton]

No.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Can I test you on that?

[Narrator/Announcer]

Sure.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Have you ever told a lie?

[Peyton]

Yes.

[Apologist Assistant]

How many?

[Peyton]

A lot.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

So if I told a lot of lies, what would you call me? You're going to give me a name. You know that I tell a lot of lies.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Liar.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Uh huh. Stolen anything?

[Peyton]

Yes.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

So I'm sitting next to a stealer. If you're from Pittsburgh. Otherwise you are a thief.

[Peyton]

Oh, a thief.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

I get it.

[Apologist Assistant]

All right.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

It's going to get. This is going to get a little personal. You don't have to answer.

[Peyton]

All right.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

You ever looked at a woman with lust?

[Peyton]

Indeed.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

All right. Have you ever murdered anybody?

[Peyton]

Yes. No, I'm just playing.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Have you ever been angry at somebody?

[Peyton]

Yes.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Called somebody a foul name?

[Narrator/Commentator]

Yes.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Okay, so the desire really was murder. It was murder of the heart. Wasn't the act, but it was murder of the heart. Has God always been first in Peyton's life?

[Peyton]

No.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

I think I just gave you about five commandments, five laws, and it turns out you profess that you're a lying, thieving, adulterous murderer at heart who doesn't love his God.

[Taj]

Yes.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

So we've determined Peyton maybe isn't a good person, but Peyton is a lawbreaker.

[Peyton]

He might be.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

So let's just keep focusing on Peyton. First, a moment. Let's just say, Peyton, we don't want this to happen today, but it could. Lightning strikes, takes out Peyton, you die. You are brought into the presence of God, who is the just judge of all the world. And God opens up the books on Peyton, and he knows everything you've done in darkness, everything that you've looked at on the Internet you shouldn't have. The way that you maybe treated your siblings, disrespected your parents. Everything. Everything is brought into the light. Would God find Peyton innocent or guilty?

[Peyton]

Hmm. I would say guilty of all those things. So, yeah, guilty for sure.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

So if God is just. And he doesn't just turn a blind eye to justice and say, well, but you know what, Peyton? He studied computer science. He's a nice young man. I'm going to let him go. He can't do that. Because that's not just. Should God send you to heaven or hell?

[Peyton]

In my opinion, I think heaven.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

So a judge should let a criminal live in a mansion?

[Peyton]

See, but it's different, because God, like, created everything. He created me. He knew what I was gonna do.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

You know, I'm glad we've got agreement on that.

[Peyton]

Look, he created. I'm not saying I think that that's what happened, but in this case, God created me. And he knew what was gonna happen, so he created me just to, like, sin. So, like, why would you put me in hell for doing what you told me to do?

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

He didn't tell you to sin.

[Peyton]

He didn't tell me to sin, but he knew everything that was gonna happen. He knows sin. He created me.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Do you have kids?

[Peyton]

Not yet, no.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Someday you will. When your kid sins, who's responsible for the sin? You or the child?

[Peyton]

It depends on the situation.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

I think Your child is 20 and speeds down Highway 85. You gonna get a ticket?

[Peyton]

No, I'm not getting a ticket.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

You're not responsible for the behavior of your children. God is not responsible for our behavior. We are.

[Peyton]

Yes, that's true.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

So heaven or hell for Payton?

[Peyton]

I still gonna say heaven.

[Host/Commentator]

Why now?

[Peyton]

I don't know. I just feel like I do. Like more good than bad. You know, I've done bad things, but a lot of it was out of ignorance.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

You know, let's give it a go in an earthly court system, which I don't think is quite as just as God's, but nevertheless, let's just say your next door neighbor killed 10 people and burned down five houses. He stands before the judge and says, judge, I know I'm guilty, but I've done some good, good stuff. What's the judge going to say?

[Peyton]

He's going to put him in jail.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Really? Our goodness has nothing to do with our crimes, right?

[Peyton]

I guess.

[Tiernan]

Yes.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

So you're guilty. That excuse is gone. Heaven or hell. Round three, I guess.

[Peyton]

I'm going in.

[Host/Commentator]

Okay. I'm glad we have agreement on that, too.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

You're a hoot. All right. So, Peyton, it makes sense. If we're guilty before God, that's the right thing for him to do, correct?

[Apologist Assistant]

That's true.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Did you ever go to church as a kid?

[Peyton]

Yes.

[Apologist Assistant]

What did God do?

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

So Peyton doesn't have to go to hell.

[Peyton]

He died on the cross for our sins.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

That's good news, right? So you, a guilty criminal, can be set free because Jesus satisfied God's judgment and wrath on your behalf?

[Peyton]

Yes.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

That sounds like good news to me.

[Peyton]

It does.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Here's the question, though.

[Apologist Assistant]

Is it true?

[Peyton]

I don't think we can answer that question.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Why not?

[Peyton]

It's impossible. You have to die to understand, to know.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Well, unless you read the historical account and the teachings of Jesus Christ himself and the eyewitness accounts of him dying on a cross and rising from the dead. We can either trust that or not.

[Peyton]

Yeah, you can either trust it or not. And I think it's like a big game of telephone. Everybody's like, I saw that happen. Oh, I saw that happen, too. And it's just like, you know, kind of gets inflated. I kind of think that's what happens, you know?

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Okay, there's a field of study called textual criticism, right? These are really smart people in dusty buildings who look at books from antiquity, and they've got standards and criteria for determining if a book is accurate. So Caesar's Gallic Wars, Homer's Iliad, they can determine, are the books that we have today the same as what was written at the time of the Authority? It's called Textual criticism. Now here's what textual critics agree, whether

[Apologist Assistant]

they are Christian or not.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

The number one most authenticated accurate book in antiquity is the Bible. Hands down, we know that the words of the Bible that we have in the 21st century are exactly the words that were written 2,000 years ago. Now, that doesn't mean it's true, but that kind of disqualifies the whole telephone.

[Peyton]

I didn't mean it in that sense. Like the telephone thing is like, what if they saw it happen but they didn't write the book as soon as it happened, they wrote it later on. And who's to say what they were writing was even what really happened? What if they just wanted to keep something going?

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Those are fair questions. But you said that it's a 2000 year old book, so who can know if it's right? Well, textual critics say it is right, it is accurate. But we're confronted then with the question, is it truth? So here's what we got. Jesus said, I'm the truth. It's not an abstract concept. He embodies truth because he is truth. He doesn't write the standard for truth and then try to attain it.

[Apologist Assistant]

He is it. He's the bar.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

So Jesus is either your God, your savior, the truth, or he's not. Fair enough, fair enough. You got hopefully a long life in front of you, but this day, sitting on this concrete, you're presented with the truth.

[Peyton]

Yes.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

And this is not to like twist your arm and coerce you. This is a good offer for you,

[Apologist Assistant]

that your maker is willing to forgive

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

you because he loves you despite your

[Apologist Assistant]

rejection of him, despite your rebellion against him.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

He says, I love the world, I love sinners, and I'm willing to forgive them if they will repent, turn from

[Apologist Assistant]

their sins, put their trust in Jesus

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Christ slate not only wiped clean, so not just forgiven of your crimes, but

[Apologist Assistant]

all of the righteousness of Jesus that

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

gets credited to your account. So in other words, you give Jesus your rap sheet, he gives you his resume, you can be seen as the righteousness of God in Christ. I personally think that that is the most important and best offer you'll ever hear. So, Peyton, you are a very nice young man. I'm going to leave, but I'm just

[Apologist Assistant]

going to ask you, would you please consider what I've shared with you today? Because if it's not true, you don't

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

have a worry in the world. But if it is true, you're on

[Apologist Assistant]

that AC DC highway to hell and God wants to get you off and forgive you. Will you at least consider these claims?

[Peyton]

Yeah, I'll consider it for sure.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Do you have a Bible?

[Apologist Assistant]

Yes. You do.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

You've got a phone in your hand.

[Peyton]

Yeah, I have a Bible.

[Apologist Assistant]

Maybe crack it open. And before you put your head on

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

your pillow, think about these things.

[Apologist Assistant]

Because I would hate for you to die and go to hell.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

I'd hate for you to not be in a right relationship with your maker

[Apologist Assistant]

and enjoy everlasting life.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Fair enough?

[Peyton]

That's fair enough.

[Apologist Assistant]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

All right, man. Thanks.

[Narrator/Commentator]

And it's now time for your daily Fortis news break, a production of Fortis Institute. Well, the job Justice Department, they've launched an investigation into women's prisons in California and Maine. These are prisons where men identifying as transgender have been accused of raping female inmates. At the Central California Women's Facility, a man named Tremaine Carroll was charged with rape after a fellow inmate was found pregnant and two other women accused him of the same crime. At the main correctional center, a 6 foot 1, 310 pound man serving 40 years for murdering his parents is currently housed in the women's unit where he's been accused of forcibly kissing inmates. Finland's Supreme Court has convicted a sitting member of Parliament for co authoring a church pamphlet that quoted the Bible's teaching on marriage. The woman, a former government minister, was fined roughly $2,000 and the court ordered 11 statements removed from the pamphlet and destroyed. Two lower courts had already thrown the case out, but prosecutors, they just kept appealing until they got the answer they wanted. A jury has ordered Meta and Google to pay $6 million in damages after finding that Instagram and YouTube were deliberately designed to addict children. The plaintiff, a young woman who said she became hooked on the platform as a child, argued the app's infinite scroll and push notifications and algorithm were engineered to keep kids glued to their screens. Over 2000 similar cases are currently pending. The companies plan to appeal. And there is a question, a legitimate question, about parental responsibility in the whole matter as well. We're not going to find any disagreement that Big Tech should be accountable and that accountability is long overdue. But you can't sue your way out of parenting failure either. In Illinois, all 12 public universities are now required by state law to provide or refer students for abortion pills, but not a single single one offers prenatal care. Only two even advertise referrals for it. Pro life Advocates note that 2/3 of women who've had abortions say the decision went against their own values, and a quarter say theirs were unwanted or coerced. When free abortion pills are the only option on the table, it's hard to call that a choice. And across the Atlantic, Britain's House of Lords recently voted to effectively decriminalize abortion outside the existing legal framework, meaning no law would deter a woman from ending a pregnancy at any point, for any reason, even at full term. Less than 1% of the British public supports abortion up to birth. But Parliament's not following public opinion on this one, it's overruling it. And a Boston BLM organizer has been ordered to repay over $224,000 that she stole through her own non profit and fraudulent pandemic benefits. And that wraps up that he's 40. Welcome to Fortis News Break. I'm Jimmy Hicks. If you want more, you can download Fortis plus or sign up to become a Hortus Insider for exclusive daily content. Both can be [e-mail] and don't forget, you can also subscribe to this here Fortis newscast so you can get these updates daily. And you do that on your favorite podcast app.

[Narrator/Announcer]

And until tomorrow, go serve your king.

[Todd Friel]

Important Dates in Christian history 1273 Thomas Aquinas completes work on Summer Theologica, the theological masterpiece of the Middle Ages. Aquinas synthesized faith and reason, incorporating Aristotelian philosophy into his work, and provided a theological framework for Catholic doctrine. This is Wretched Radio with Todd Friel.

[Host/Commentator]

Maybe, just maybe, this could be an evangelistic tactic that works for you. This is Wretched Radio. Out to the University of Georgia we go to do a bit of an experiment. You see, I wanted to kind of play around with an idea to perhaps position the bad news of the gospel with some information that would perhaps keep people from being so argumentative. And I got the idea from Blaise Pascal. He was the fellow who was pondering why so many people are becoming atheists. Now this goes back centuries and he was trying to noodle. Why is it that so many people aren't following in the faith? And he came up with a musing which he never fully fleshed out. What if we present God in such a way that he becomes so amazing people will just wish that he actually existed? And then we demonstrate that he does because that's how amazing God is. He is the greatest thing that we can imagine. So I decided to take that idea to go out to a campus and position my presentation of the Gospel in that way. Can I tell you this is something you should do every time? Absolutely not. Might it be something that is helpful for you? Perhaps why? Because when I did this, I did not encounter anybody who got really snarky. Doesn't mean that it's some sort of Teflon way to present the gospel, but I will say it did help the conversation go smoothly. So what you're about to hear is a conversation that I had with a young man from Ireland who went to a Catholic school, who was told by a priest, why don't you just become an agnostic?

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Yeah, not kidding.

[Host/Commentator]

I presented the gospel by framing it with what if, what if God were like this? Would you want to know that?

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

God.

[Host/Commentator]

I gave it a go. You're going to eavesdrop and then you can determine.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Hmm.

[Host/Commentator]

Is that something you can use or not? Prepare to meet Tiernan.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Alright, so this is Thea the Pooch. And you are originally from Ireland?

[Tiernan]

Yes sir, I am.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Now I want to ask you a question. This is just a bit of a thought experiment. I want to start with the concept of God. Do you have any sort of imagination about what you think God is?

[Tiernan]

I do. I actually, in Ireland, most schools are Catholic, just based off of everyone being Catholic and the culture there. So I grew up in an environment where we were really religious. Like on Fridays in school we would actually go to mass and across the street there was a church. And when I came here, my parents put us in like private Catholic schools and. And throughout the semester I asked a lot of questions and I got a lot of good answers and I got a lot of iffy answers and I wasn't sure what to think and I kind of was just trying to figure it out for myself at that point. Like all the help with the church or the school, we had like priests and stuff in the school and all the religion teachers, I would ask them anything I could anytime I had a question and they all loved that I was so like involved with it and trying to figure it out. But Mr. Eaglen, my teacher for apologetics senior year, he told me at the end of the year, I think it might be a good idea for you to take a few years and just be agnostic? I think it would be a good idea for you to explore other faiths. And if this one isn't working for you, who's to say that we're the right one and everyone has the right to believe what they believe. Everything has their own background and their own origins, so I think you should go and explore. So that's what I've been doing. But my family is predominantly Irish Catholic, so I do go to church and I do kind of I do still believe in a God. I'm just not sure to what degree or what sense.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Tiernan. Right. Tiernan. What was the big thing that you were stumbling over?

[Tiernan]

It was more of like how they would view the scriptures. It wasn't like the stories. It seemed like the way they were taking away certain things, it almost seemed like they were doing it to put. Pick and choose, to make. Make it look better rather than how it actually went. And I just, I was kind of concerned with that and I kind of felt like it was. Of course it was like, this is how religion is. Like, you do just have to believe. You have to believe that it's all. It was all done in this good faith. And it was. That's what faith is like. You just have to believe it was done for the betterment of humanity and that this was actually how it was and this is what God gave, gave down to us.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

But what, okay, so for instance, in the Bible, what would. What was the thing that was troubling you or what behavior or what story was causing you consternation?

[Tiernan]

I don't know if it was a story per se. I think it was just the modern Catholic Church, I think with like, media. And I was very involved, like keeping up with all of it. And the way I just saw it evolve and the way I saw, like how Catholics were and like how they were viewed by the world and how they have such a heavy influence in the world. Like, Pope Francis is one of the only non, like world leaders that is regarded as a world leader. People listen to him. People actually have events with him. And I understand he's the head of the biggest church in the world, but it kind of seemed to me like church and state, separation of church and state. And it seemed like somewhere along the way they felt that the religion would die out or would not die out, but wouldn't be as strong if they couldn't root the ties to those. Like, that's the state to make sure people were following laws and all that. And it ended up getting to a point to me where I started to believe myself that I'm not sure if it was all done out of God or if this guy Jesus was just a really good guy, like a guy who preached to the people. And back then, like it was rougher times. Like it was different times. People, like a lot of things were just easier.

[Apologist Assistant]

Murder was.

[Tiernan]

You walk over the next town, stab someone, walk away, and that's it. So it was just that the, the moral structure that they built was. I thought it was really great. And I do still live my life by that. I live my life by the morals of the Catholic Church, definitely. But in my opinion, I just believe that they kind of went too far with their. Their reach.

[Apologist Assistant]

If. If there were a God that would be willing to wipe your slate clean so all the bad stuff that you've

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

put out, he's willing to completely forgive.

[Apologist Assistant]

What if there were a God who was willing to take any feelings of shame that you might have for doing those things, whatever it was, public, private, and he can make that go away? What if there were a God that was willing to actually give you hope, not just like, this was a pretty good day, but a hope that there is something transcendent, something bigger, something better in the future, more meaningful, more lawful than just this?

[Tiernan]

And that's my, I guess, reason for not shying away from religion as a whole. And like I said, I'm not. I'm not against Catholicism. I like.

[Apologist Assistant]

Well, let me. Let me. Let me finish my thought experiment on you, all right? Okay. That's right. What if this God could give you purpose in your life? In other words, when you wake up in the morning, there's a reason to get up. And if this God could remove that fear that we all tend to have that if we were to die today, that it might not go well for us in the afterlife. If there were an entity in the universe that could do all of that because he is good and he is kind and he is loving, and he is willing to deal with all of those problems for you, Would that God be of interest to you, Tiernan?

[Tiernan]

Yes, he would, and he still is, in my opinion. I do think it is like, the whole idea of it to me is just something that a lot of people like. Like I said, I went to Catholic schools all my life, and a lot of people genuinely still find it great. Like my younger brother. He's a soccer player off Belmont Abbey, and he is the most religious person I know.

[Apologist Assistant]

Then let me keep reasoning with you just a bit, all right?

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

And if you don't feel like tagging

[Apologist Assistant]

along, you just stop me, all right? I think that sense that we have inside of our brain that promotes feelings like guilt and shame and a fear of dying.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

I think we're hardwired for that.

[Tiernan]

I could see that.

[Apologist Assistant]

And I think that we have that sense inside of us because it was built into us as an alarm mechanism to warn us there's danger ahead. I look around, I see the creation. I intuitively know there's a Creator. I had this sense of justice. And I realize I have not put out good things, I've done bad things, either verbally or physically. Even in my mind, I've got this sense, this is shameful. I'm guilty and I'm going to have

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

to pay a price for this.

[Apologist Assistant]

I think that comes from your maker because you're made in his image and he gave you that conscience so that you could understand that you need forgiveness. You can't pay for your own bad karma. You can't do a guilty criminal. You can't just erase his debt by walking a little old lady across the street. Justice must be satisfied. God, knowing that you can't satisfy that justice yourself, to demonstrate his kindness and his love for you, sent his son, Jesus Christ, to take on human flesh, to represent us, to be just like us in that he had a human body, but he was fully God. He never did those bad. He never generated anything that would be bad karma. He always did what was right, always behaved, always did what he should be doing, always loved the way that he was supposed to. Never lusted, never lied, never dishonored his parents. He was fulfilling all righteousness. He went to a cross where he was hung, beaten, brute, bruised for you, for your iniquities. God was pouring out his wrath on his son on your behalf so that you could be forgiven, so that your guilt could be removed, your shame could be erased. You wouldn't have to fear death anymore because he conquered death by rising from the dead. And you can be in a right relationship with that God. If that's true, Tiernan, would you want to be in a relationship with that deity?

[Host/Commentator]

That's right. Gonna leave it right there. A good old fashioned radio cliffhanger. Prepare to hear Tiernan's response. Does my positioning of the Gospel in this way yield any sort of positive fruit? When we return on Wretched Radio, you'll hear yeah. And no, it doesn't. Next on Wretched Radio.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Most of us haven't really thought about persecution. Not the real kind, not the kind where following Jesus actually cost you something. But Christians throughout history have indeed faced it. And depending on where things are headed, we might too. So what does the Bible say you're supposed to do when the pressure mounts? That's exactly what our resource persecution is all about. It's teaching built on the book of First Peter with historical context. From the Fox's Book of Martyrs, you'll get a biblical framework for faithfulness. When things aren't easy anymore, fix your hope on heaven, grow in holiness and submit to authority. Unless they tell you to sin and keep proclaiming the gospel anyway. This is honest teaching and it's more timely than any of us may want to admit persecution. Available now on Fortis Plus. Download the app for free on your smartphone, on your smart TV, or just simply go to fortis plus.org hey, thanks for listening to Wretched Radio today. You know, there's no shortage of voices telling women how to handle anxiety, how to navigate relationships, how to find their identity. Honestly, most of it sounds pretty good until you realize it's just self help slapped with Bible verses. That's not the same thing as Biblical wisdom. And that's why we at Fortis Institute present to you the Better Way with Libby Glossin. Libby is an ACBC Certified Biblical Counselor and she's not just interested in giving you coping strategies. Libby's desire is to take you to Scripture and show you what God actually says about the things you're actually walking through. And this is the kind of content our gospel partners are making possible. If the content we're producing at Fortis Institute has been meaningful to you, I want to ask you to prayerfully consider becoming an ongoing monthly gospel partner. Just go to fortisinstitute.org right now and find out what it would look like for you to be a part of getting content like the Better Way into the hands of women who need it. Wretched Amazing grace Amazing gospel 369 million that's how many people are a part of the new Apostolic Reformation movement. And if you've never heard of it, that's part of the problem. Maybe you have heard of Jesus culture. Maybe your teenager listens to their worship music, maybe your church sings their songs on Sunday morning, but you don't know what they actually teach and where it leads. Drunk in the Spirit pulls back the

[Narrator/Commentator]

curtain on one of the most destructive

[Narrator/Announcer]

forces in Christianity today. Who are these people? What do they believe and why should it matter to your family and your local church? This isn't fear mongering, it's education because you can't guard against something you don't recognize. And this movement has tentacles in places you wouldn't expect. If you care about protecting your family and your church from false teaching. That sounds Christ centered, but it's not. This is essential. Drunk in the Spirit it is streaming now for free on Fortis. Download the app on your smartphone, on your smart TV, or just simply go to fortisplus.org.

[Todd Friel]

Titles of Christ in the Bible, Jesus is given many titles that teach us about who he is and what he has done Jesus is called the door. A door serves to provide or prevent access. Thieves and robbers are prevented from entering in, but those who trust in Christ are able to come through him into eternal salvation. This is Wretched Radio with Todd Friel.

[Host/Commentator]

Let's get back out to Georgia State University. Ifen you recall tried to position the gospel with Tiernan. If this were all really, really true, isn't this amazing? Wouldn't you want to know the God who died for sinners? Prepare to hear Tiernan's answer as you go about the business of determining. Is this something I could utilize in a witness encounter?

[Apologist Assistant]

God was pouring out his wrath on his son on your behalf so that you could be forgiven, so that your guilt could be removed, your shame could be erased. You wouldn't have to fear death anymore because he conquered death by rising from the dead. And you can be in a right relationship with that God. If that's true, Tiernan, would you want to be in a relationship with that deity?

[Tiernan]

I would, yeah. But the words that you use there, if that's true, is what I'm trying to find.

[Host/Commentator]

Fair enough.

[Apologist Assistant]

That's very fair. All right, so let's now see if we can jump over the if. All right, so tell me, what would be your big objection? If you can, as best you can, Tiernan, forget about your Roman Catholic past, just you sitting here on this stoop. What is it that would keep you from being in a right relationship with that God?

[Tiernan]

I would actually cite the state of the world right now, the state of humanity, the way things are. You look around like the news. I'm a finance major, and I read the news all the time. I invest in stocks. When I first started, when I was 12, I genuinely became depressed for a little bit. I had to go get psychological help. And they told me to limit my. My intake of the news because bad out there.

[Apologist Assistant]

Now, let's. Now, let's see. Let's see.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

That's your hurt. That's a hurdle. You maybe have more.

[Apologist Assistant]

But let's just see if the Christian worldview can explain that hurdle, because I don't think Buddhism can, and I don't think Hinduism can, but I think Christianity can. Go back to Genesis, you remember, God created the world. And what did he say after each day that he created the world? It was. Do you remember?

[Tiernan]

It was good.

[Apologist Assistant]

Good. And when he finished, he said, it is very good. So God creates this beautiful planet with lovely things to enjoy. Then what did man do? Immediately in the garden, God said, don't eat of that tree.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Don't Eat the fruit. What did we do?

[Tiernan]

We ate the fruit.

[Apologist Assistant]

What was the consequence?

[Tiernan]

We lost our paradise. We lost our eternal life, our clean souls.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

That's it.

[Apologist Assistant]

There's your explanation. We see beauty because God made the place. We see evil because we brought it on ourselves. And there's a curse on this planet. So we see remnants of beauty and yet we see terrible things happening. And I think that's the only worldview that harmonizes those two things that we observe.

[Tiernan]

That is actually something I have, in all my years, never been told. And that is a really good explanation. That is a really good argument for it.

[Apologist Assistant]

Now these other religions, I don't think that it's foolish to take a look at them to see are they true. But I would just challenge you, Tiernan, as you think these things through. You're a smart guy. Do they answer questions like why do I see good? Why do I see evil? How do these religions deal with my guilt problem? I can't shake it. What do I do with my shame? How do they get rid of the shame? How do they deal with my fear of death? How do they give me transcendent purpose beyond what I'm currently doing? I don't think any other religion can answer all of those questions in a harmonious way. Now some of them might be able to answer one of them, but if they try to answer all of them, you put them together, they're not going to stand up. I think Christianity harmoniously explains what we observe and what we experience and it takes care of all of those issues for you. So let me leave you with this, Tiernan. You're thinking about stuff a lot. But my friend, if you can't think of a major reason to surrender to Jesus Christ, I would suggest then today would be the day of salvation. You don't put it off. Because if what I'm explaining to you is true, it's not just an urgency.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Because if you don't, you'll go to hell. Although that's true.

[Apologist Assistant]

But if you remember my premise, this God is good, this God is kind. He's willing to rescue you from yourself. He's willing to now take you, forgive you, bring you into a right relationship with you. And then the Bible says that he starts to do a work on our emotions, on our thinking, kind of rewires our brains. You've mentioned emotional and perhaps needing, I think you said, some help in the past with these issues, some psychological help. God is your psychological helper. The reason that your brain struggles goes

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

back to that garden again because of The Fall. It's called the noetic effect of the fall. It's a theological term which means we're under the curse. Everything groans because of the curse, including us. That's why our bodies fall apart and ache.

[Apologist Assistant]

That's why we don't think right. Brains just aren't wired right. God is now going to take your brain and rewire it and connect it to the right circuits. Rather than having a wrong version of the world, he's going to give you the right version of the way things are. And he's going to cause you to start thinking more and more in alignment with him, because he is reality. So Tiernan, that's what God offers you today, forgiveness of sins. You can be in a relationship with your maker, shame gone, your past erased. The everlasting life is ahead of you. And he'll start helping you make sense of this life and you'll increasingly go beyond anxiety and depression into a different realm, peace and joy that surpasses your current union, understanding. He wants to give you life abundantly, not wealth, not perfect physical healing. He wants you to live rightly because you're living the way that he wants you to live. So that's the offer of the gospel of Jesus Christ. So this is just a pleading with you to think this through urgently. I know you have been, but this is the best offer ever for you. Would you at least, least ponder that today?

[Tiernan]

I will actually. And I really like that analogy used of the rewiring the brain because that makes sense, that clicks almost perfectly, the rewiring of the brain. It seems like those toxic thoughts that a lot of my friends who aren't in religion that like the things that they have and the things that, the way they view the world, it seems like the people that are in, like my little brother for example, is a really good example. He just, he's never down. He gets down of course, course when like he doesn't meet a goal of his or like gets a little upset but like everyone does but like in, in the grand scheme of things he's a very happy person and he rarely, he rarely sees trouble and rarely complains and usually he just figures things out for himself and it always seems to work out for him. And I, and I, that analogy really clicks and I actually think after this I might, I might go back. I do actually think I might look into it, not go back immediately, of course. I would have to look back into it and start.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

Can I encourage something?

[Taj]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

You've got a Bible, right?

[Tiernan]

I do have a Bible, yes.

[Apologist Assistant]

I would like you to read the Gospel of Matthew. And as you may.

[Interviewer (Apologist)]

It's pretty long.

[Apologist Assistant]

Okay. It's the longest gospel there is, but it shows you the life of Jesus. And I want you to look for something. There's a repeated theme. Jesus gave a sermon on the mount, you remember that? And he talked about why are you worried? Why are you anxious? Look at the sparrows. God feeds them. Look at the lilies of the field. God clothes them, he makes them the beautiful things that they are. God takes care of them. Won't he take care of you, O you of little faith? And then we see stories throughout the Gospel of Matthew where for instance, the disciples are out in the boat and the storm is raging and they're in a panic. Jesus is sound asleep, wakes up, and he asks them, why are you worried, O you of little faith? Peter walking on water, sinks. And Jesus says, O you of little faith. He feeds thousands of people miraculously because he's God and he can do those things. And then the disciples are really worried because a big crowd of people are gathering and they don't think they can feed him. And he says, I just showed you miracle after miracle, O you of little faith. What he's getting at with that Tiernan, is when we're anxious about stuff, it's because we're believing in something very puny. We're probably believing in ourselves or our abilities or our skills or our money or our context, our looks, our humor. But God wants us to believe in Him. And when we put our trust in the greatest entity in the universe who is on our side, and he demonstrated by dying for you, you don't want worry about anything else because your biggest problem has been solved. The greatest entity of the universe is on your side. Believe him and your anxieties will dissipate. That's just one way that God will help you start to rethink about things and get things in order. Okay, so read the Gospel of Matthew, watch for those stories. And if as you are reading that you you recognize this is the only true and living God, so in other words, the other systems are wrong, then I would encourage you call out to him. Surrender. The biblical term is repent. You turn from your sins. It's not that you become perfect, but you don't want those anymore. You want him. You don't want to believe in God just because you don't have to go to hell. You want to believe in God because He's been so kind to save you you from hell. We should desire to be with this God who is the best entity in the universe and he'll save you and he'll forgive you, he'll adopt you into his family and then he'll start to fix your emotions and your thinking progressively as you keep reading his word. So don't go to the Catholic Church, go to the Bible. Fair enough, fair enough.

[Tiernan]

I will look and I'll try that. That's something I have not tried.

[Host/Commentator]

Did Tiernan gets saved from my positioning of the gospel in a Blaise Pascal kind of way? Not on the spot. Perhaps he did afterwards. Don't know about that. So no somebody didn't get saved from that method. But perhaps, just maybe that will be a way of framing the gospel for you that might at least keep you from getting into some of the typical squabbles and maybe even antagonistic conversations than perhaps you have had in the past. Please remember your mileage may vary and until tomorrow go serve your king.