Witness Wednesday: Karma, Reincarnation, and the Lie of “All Paths”

Summary

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Wretched Radio with Todd Friel – “Witness Wednesday: Karma, Reincarnation, and the Lie of ‘All Paths’”

Date: March 18, 2026
Episode Focus: Live campus witnessing conversations about Hare Krishna beliefs, postmodern spirituality, and Christian exclusivity, followed by a Gospel dialogue with a skeptical listener.

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Episode Overview

This episode of Wretched Radio is dedicated to real-world witnessing encounters. Todd Friel and a team of Christian apologists engage with individuals on spirituality and salvation, focusing on the Hare Krishna movement and the postmodern belief that all roads lead to God. Later, they address common objections from a skeptical listener with a Christian upbringing, exploring how to meaningfully present the Gospel amid doubts and secular worldviews.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Witnessing to a Postmodern Hare Krishna Devotee (Tim)

Timestamps: 01:02–25:32

The Beliefs and Practice of Hare Krishna

• Core Teachings & Practices

  • Tim explains the Hare Krishna tradition as centered on chanting God's names, devotional service (Bhakti Yoga), and reconnecting with Krishna, described as the "supreme personality of Godhead."
  • Key quote: “We practice Bhakti Yoga, which means devotional service. So we just try to perform devotional service to God through chanting, dancing, eating food that we serve to the Lord.” (06:30 – Tim)

• Scripture & Authority

  • Reference to the Bhagavad Gita and associated ancient texts as authoritative, with self-directed research and spiritual experience as the primary method for confirming their truth.
  • “Nobody’s ever going to be able to prove a religion 100%...but through research…this book…it confirmed everything for me personally.” (03:41 – Tim)

• Nature of God and the Universe

  • Tim affirms monotheism (Krishna as supreme) while also recognizing his energy as pervading all things—a nuanced position between panentheism and personal theism.
  • “We believe Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So he also has a personal form…But…his energy pervades everywhere.” (05:09 – Tim)

• Reincarnation and Karma

  • Salvation is accomplished through bhakti (devotion), with reincarnation as the default fate for those who have not fully remembered or served Krishna at death.
  • “If you’re not [thinking of him at death], then you might take another body at the time of death.” (07:59 – Tim)

Christian Apologist's Challenge: Exclusivity of Christ

• Quoting Jesus and Biblical Claims

  • The interviewer contrasts Hare Krishna’s inclusivist viewpoint with Jesus’ claim: “I am the way, the truth, the life. No one comes to the Father but through me.”
  • “Jesus seems to be rejecting the multipath system. Was He wrong?” (08:06 – Interviewer)

• Tim’s Postmodern Response

  • Tim repeatedly elevates Jesus as a "perfect spiritual master" and suggests that faithfully following any spiritual master leads to God (Krishna).
  • “If you follow the teachings of Jesus as it is, without your own interpretation, it's going to be perfect. It is the perfect way.” (08:30 – Tim)
  • The apologist presses: “Jesus...claimed that He was God Himself and that all other religious systems are dead ends. So how do you...override that clear teaching and say you can choose him or not?...” (09:52 – Interviewer)
  • Tim: “Even if he’s not [God], it’s irrelevant because if you follow his teachings as is stated, then you’re going to get the most benefit in your life.” (10:30 – Tim)

Discussion on Sin and Salvation

• Definition of Sin in Hare Krishna

  • Sin is “just surrounds us in this material world…an illusion.” (17:03 – Tim)
  • Personal sins include lying, lust, and offenses toward others—acknowledged candidly.

• Means of Atonement

  • Karma accumulates “negative and positive effects,” which are neutralized by acts of devotion (bhakti) such as chanting—there is no single act of atonement, but an ongoing process.
  • “Through the process of chanting, which is bhakti, we expel these aspects of karma, good and bad.” (18:13 – Tim)

• Works Righteousness vs. Grace

  • The apologist clarifies the distinction: Christianity teaches Christ’s finished work and forgiveness by grace, not by human effort; Hare Krishna is summarized as a “works righteousness system”—which Tim generally accepts.
  • “Yeah, I mean, I guess in a general sense, because, yeah, we practice devotional service…” (19:32 – Tim)

Conclusions & Memorable Moments

• Final ‘Pitches’ for Each Faith System

  • Tim: “The goal of Bhagavad Gita and all religion is love of God. And that's what we need to try to achieve in this life.” (20:22 – Tim)
  • Interviewer: “Jesus Christ willingly sacrificed his life on behalf of sinners… You can actually inherit eternal life exclusively through Jesus Christ and his works by grace alone, if you will repent and put your trust in him and reject all other systems. That's my pitch.” (20:35 – Interviewer)
  • Tim: “I'm going to agree with that whole statement, except for maybe the last statement. All other systems, there are benefits…no one is…everybody’s different.” (21:45 – Tim)

• Christian Challenge to Pluralism

  • “Either reject Christianity totally or repent and put your trust in Jesus and reject the other systems. I don't think Jesus gives us the option to just pick and choose.” (22:22 – Interviewer)

• Postmodern Non-Commitment

  • Tim attempts a reconciliatory stance, suggesting agreement without exclusivity. He also shares about his Bible and Bhagavad Gita comparative study with his mother, emphasizing universal truths.
  • “If you tell me that God is only for this group of people and he doesn’t care about anyone else, obviously he cares about everyone.” (24:31 – Tim)

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2. Gospel Conversation with a Skeptical Listener (Hannah)

Timestamps: 30:05–53:49

Initial Worldview Probing & Moral Intuitions

• Exploring Concepts of Good, Evil, Guilt, and Shame

  • The apologist relates existential feelings (guilt, shame, fear of death) to evidence for the plausibility of a Creator God and original sin.
  • “Do you ever fear death and what might happen when you die?”
    “Absolutely.” (31:05–Hannah)

• Skepticism and the Demand for Proof

  • Hannah, raised Christian, is “on the fence” about God’s existence, needing empirical “proof” (i.e., to see God) to be convinced.
  • “If I got proof for it, I would [believe].” (33:14 – Hannah)

• Science vs. Theism

  • Apologist uses a design inference (microphone/universe maker analogy), but Hannah distinguishes between scientific explanations of “how” and existential questions of “why.”
  • “That's fair. Yeah. But I suspect that didn't persuade you. No, no, it didn't.” (36:10–36:16)

Obstacles to Faith: Religious Pluralism & Hypocrisy

• Disillusionment with Institutional Religion

  • Hannah objects to Christianity due to “how I've seen other people interpret the word of God” (36:47–Hannah), church splits, denominational history, and perceived human invention of religion.
  • “But…religion is just kind of cult, more or less.” (36:47 – Hannah)

• Challenge: Human Failure does not Invalidate Truth

  • Apologist: “I don't think we should judge God based on some of the actions of some of his presumed followers…still begs the question, is this God real?” (37:49)

Direct Gospel Presentation

• Is Goodness Enough?

  • Apologist applies the Ten Commandments as a moral “mirror,” showing that Hannah (like all humans) is guilty before God.
  • “You said you’re a morally good person, but you just admitted you’ve broken really, all of God’s laws. Wouldn’t you actually be a guilty criminal in the eyes of God?” (48:51)

• Justice, Judgment, and God’s Nature

  • Apologist: “God’s standard appears to be much higher than ours…He hates lying and he hates cheating and he hates deceit…and he hates coveting. Because his standard is so high.” (51:31)

• The Solution: Christ’s Substitution

  • “The universal solution is he sent his son to die for us so that we could be forgiven. God the Son took the wrath of God the Father on your behalf so that you could be forgiven if you’d put your trust in him.” (53:12)

• Memorable Wrap-up:

  • “Try to leave Jesus ringing in their ears…Don’t do [apologetics] at the expense of presenting the Gospel…Only God [can convert]; your job is to present the message.” (53:49–Narrator/Commentator)

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Notable Quotes & Moments (With Timestamps)

• On Pluralism:
  “If you tell me that God is only for this group of people and he doesn’t care about anyone else, obviously he cares about everyone.” (24:31 – Tim)
• On Christian Exclusivity:
  “Jesus…claimed that he was God himself and that all of the other religious systems are dead ends. So how do you…override that clear teaching and say you can choose him or not when he said, if you don’t choose me, then you’re not going to heaven, you’re going to hell?” (09:52 – Interviewer)
• On Accountability:
  “The one who really matters in our judgment is not ourselves…it’s really the determination of the judge.” (49:09 – Interviewer)
• On Gospel Clarity:
  “God the Son took the wrath of God the Father on your behalf so that you could be forgiven if you’d put your trust in him…that way your court case can be dismissed because somebody stepped into the courtroom…and paid your fine.” (53:12 – Interviewer)
• On Evangelistic Humility:
  “Take yourself off the hook of not having a high success rate…because the only one that ever has success with conversion is God.” (53:49 – Narrator/Commentator)

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Segment Timestamps (Highlights)

• Introduction & Campus Setup: 00:00–01:02
• Hare Krishna Conversation with Tim: 02:03–25:32
  • Nature of God (04:20)
  • Purpose of Life/Salvation (05:26)
  • Christian Exclusivity Challenge (08:06)
  • Karma, Reincarnation & Sin (16:53)
  • Final Summaries (‘Pitches’) (20:22–22:16)
• Gospel Conversation with Hannah, the Skeptical Listener: 30:05–53:49
  • Problem of Evil & Morality (30:05–36:10)
  • Disillusion with Religion (36:47)
  • Testing Personal Goodness (47:07)
  • Courtroom Judgment & Gospel (49:09–53:12)

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Episode Takeaways

• The Hare Krishna devotee professed deep reverence for Jesus but ultimately subordinated Christian exclusivity into a pluralist, postmodern spirituality, reflecting the dominant “all paths” trend.
• The Christian witness maintained a clear insistence on biblical authority and the exclusivity of Christ’s atonement—a recurring conversational tension.
• When dialoguing with a skeptical yet religiously literate young listener, the apologist used probing moral questions and analogies to reveal the universality of guilt and the unique solution in Christ's substitutional death.
• The episode exemplifies evangelistic best practices: engage objections honestly, use moral reasoning, present the Gospel faithfully, and rest in God’s sovereignty for the outcome.

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If you missed this episode, expect candid campus conversation, respectful yet clear challenges to religious pluralism, and practical examples of presenting the exclusivity of Christ in a postmodern world.

Transcript

[Todd Friel]

Welcome to Wretched Radio. And before we get to Witness Wednesday, I wanted to quickly say to those of you who may have heard a missed edit in yesterday's episode of Wretched Radio, I sincerely apologize. That's all totally on me and it's not something I take lightly. We value each and every one of you and thank you for the time you give us every day on Wretched Radio. And now let's get out to the campus.

[Wretched Radio Announcer]

Wretched radio begins in 3, 2, 1.

[Todd Friel]

At our church, we have people repeat a prayer who want to place their faith in Christ.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

Jesus did all the hard part. He did everything but pray your prayer. I'm gonna ask you just to pray

[Tim (Hare Krishna Devotee)]

with me right now.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

Just say these words with me. You can say those words every day

[Todd Friel]

for the rest of your life and

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

die and be separated from God.

[Todd Friel]

The scripture does not say that Jesus

[Narrator/Commentator]

Christ came to the nation of Israel

[Tim (Hare Krishna Devotee)]

and said that the time is fulfilled and the kingdom of God is at hand.

[Todd Friel]

Now, who would like ask me into their hearts?

[Wretched Radio Announcer]

It's time for Wretched Radio with Todd Friel.

[Narrator/Commentator]

And you thought post modernism had only infiltrated western religions. This is Wretched Radio on a Witness Wednesday. Going to take you downtown Atlanta. Ran into a fellow who is thoroughly postmodern, believing all roads lead to God. Your truth is your truth. Hey, if you'd like to join my clique, that's all it is. But we're all ultimately going to end up in one great big happy place once we die anyway, so no harm, no foul. Now you might be thinking, okay, well, that's pretty much a typical Western kid. He could be a Christian. Because we know that postmodernism has made its way into evangelical thinking totally incompatible with the Christian worldview. Nevertheless, it's made its way in. Maybe you're thinking, oh, well, this could be somebody who's a secularist who's postmodern and prepared to meet a surprising postmodern guess.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

Go ahead and guess what we are going to talk about. This is Tim Tim.

[Narrator/Commentator]

Your worldview.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

Do I call it a religion?

[Tim (Hare Krishna Devotee)]

Is Hare Krishna. Hare Krishna Movements, or iskcon. Officially known International Society for Krishna Consciousness.

[Narrator/Commentator]

Got it. All right.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

Now you're going to explain to what your religion is all about. Let's start with what these folks are doing down here. Bells and drum and some chanting. What's happening?

[Tim (Hare Krishna Devotee)]

Yeah, we are chanting the holy names of the Lord. You know, we just come out here and we chant the names of God through the Hare Krishna mantra, which the full mantra is Hare Krishna. Hare Krishna, Krishna, Krishna Hare Hare, Hare Rama. Hare Rama, Rama Rama Hare Hare Hare means the energies of God and Krishna means God. And Rama is another name for God. So we're acknowledging all the energies of God and just trying to spread his glories. And if we are chanting, we are always thinking of him.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

Alright, so you said that the Hare Krishna God is Rama.

[Tim (Hare Krishna Devotee)]

Krishna, Krishna. But he goes by many names. So God has become Himself many. So he goes by many names. We call him Krishna. In his original form we go by the teachings of Bhagavad Gita. And in Bhagavad Gita Krishna comes and he speaks. Bhagavad Gita. So that's the texts we follow. Bhagavad Gita, Shrimat, Bhagavatam. They're ancient Indian texts, go back about 5,000 years.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

Now how do you know that Those, they're old 5,000 years. How do you know that they're true?

[Tim (Hare Krishna Devotee)]

Well, I mean, of course nobody can say this is, you know, you're not going to be able to prove it 100%. Nobody's ever going to be able to prove a religion 100%. But through research, I did research for many years on all religions and that's what brought me to this book. You know, I had it in my collection for many years and then I eventually read it and it confirmed everything for me personally. It had everything in there that I had already read and it had the answers for me also.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

What were the questions you were asking?

[Tim (Hare Krishna Devotee)]

What is, you know, what is God? What is life all about? What is.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

Let's stop right there. Okay, so what is God?

[Tim (Hare Krishna Devotee)]

God is the reservoir of all pleasure. He is love, he is everything. He is all the energies in the world, but he resides in our heart. You know, you would say God is every. If there is a God, you would say he was everything.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

So without being Shiki, is Krishna the lamppost or a piece of the pavement?

[Tim (Hare Krishna Devotee)]

Yeah, we would say yes, he is. It is his energies. We believe Krishna is the supreme personality of Godhead. So he also has a personal form in his own abode which, you know, some might call heaven, you know, or this or that. Comparative. But you know, everything is as. So yes, the lamppost is his energy.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

It's a pantheistic religion. Panentheistic.

[Tim (Hare Krishna Devotee)]

No, I would say no, it's monotheistic. We believe he is the supreme person. But obviously his energy pervades everywhere throughout the material world and spiritual world.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

Now the other question that you were asking is what's the point? So according to Hare Krishna, what is the purpose of all of this?

[Tim (Hare Krishna Devotee)]

The purpose of being in this human form is to connect back with God. You know, we have the mind. We have the intelligence to reconnect. We have the ability to think and question. You know, so we have to.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

Krishna, the creator.

[Tim (Hare Krishna Devotee)]

Yes, of course.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

So you are a creation of Krishna and the goal is to get back.

[Tim (Hare Krishna Devotee)]

Yeah, we need to go back to the spiritual world.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

So I'm just curious. What is the point of that? So I'm just trying to understand. So he made you, put you here to get back to him. Why didn't he just keep you with him?

[Tim (Hare Krishna Devotee)]

Yeah, well, it was by our own design that we actually came to the material world. You know, we desire. We had some kind of desire to, you know, enjoy. You know, we thought we could enjoy without Krishna for some reason. So he, you know, he grants us, you know, the ability to do what we want. You know, we have, you know, free will to some degree. You know, so he lets us enjoy here if we want, and he gives us the opportunity to go back too, you know, if we want to acquire the knowledge.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

Yeah. And so how do I get back to him? Is it the knowledge?

[Tim (Hare Krishna Devotee)]

No, we just have to. We practice bhakti. Bhakti Yoga, which is. There's many kinds of yoga, physical yoga, spiritual yoga. So we practice Bhakti Yoga, which means devotional service. So we just try to perform devotional service to God through chanting, dancing, eating food that we serve to the Lord. That's our main process. Chanting his holy name, which is remembering.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

I'm curious, then. I'm not a Hare Krishna. I'm a Christian. What's my fate?

[Tim (Hare Krishna Devotee)]

If you believe in Lord Jesus wholeheartedly, then you're gonna get the most benefit out of that because we believe Jesus is the most perf. Spiritual master.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

But he's not Krishna.

[Tim (Hare Krishna Devotee)]

He is not Krishna, you would say. Well, you know, Jesus says he is the Son of God. He speaks to his Father.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

And so do you think he's a son of Krishna?

[Tim (Hare Krishna Devotee)]

Well, yeah. Yeah. I mean, he is equipped, you could say. He is a spiritual master. So if you're following the spiritual master, you're following Krishna also.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

Okay, so what happens to me when I die? Have I made it back to Krishna through Jesus?

[Tim (Hare Krishna Devotee)]

It depends. If you're thinking of him at the time of death. If you're, you know, thinking of him throughout your life and practicing devotional service and you are trying to serve him, and if you are thinking of him when the time comes, then, yes, you can go back.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

But If I'm not?

[Tim (Hare Krishna Devotee)]

If you're not, then you might take another body at the time of death.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

So it's a reincarnation religion.

[Tim (Hare Krishna Devotee)]

Reincarnation is explained in Bhagavad Gita.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

So Jesus said, I am the definite article, the way, the truth, the life. And the Bible also says that you can't make up a God, whether fashioning it out of a piece of material or even in your mind. So Jesus seems to be rejecting the multipath system. Was he wrong?

[Tim (Hare Krishna Devotee)]

Well, Jesus, like I said earlier, we believe Jesus is the most perfect spiritual master. And we have a practice of taking a spiritual master and we follow him wholeheartedly. Like our founder, Rla Prabhupda. Yes, Prabhupada. He came here when he was 70 years old just to spread this knowledge directions from his spiritual master. It's like a line of masters and disciples, you know. So we treat Jesus as a perfect spiritual master. So we believe that statement that you just said that he is the way. So if you follow the teachings of Jesus as it is, without your own interpretation, it's going to be perfect. It is the perfect way.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

But he also said that all of the other religious systems are false. It's a clear claim that one is correct, all the others are wrong. So as a Hare Krishna, how would you figure out those words of Jesus rejecting all other religious systems and claiming he's it?

[Tim (Hare Krishna Devotee)]

I don't know the specific verse you're talking about. I would like to know it. I would like to know it word for word before I actually give a comment on it. Because I'm just going to be guessing, you know, I would like to know what it says exactly, and then I would be able to give a comment on it. I would like to know where.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

I'll stick with that one verse. I am the way, the truth, the life. Nobody comes unto the Father but through me. He also said in that same book called John that he and the Father are one. In other words, it wasn't a claim to being a perfect spiritual teacher, it was a claim to deity. He claimed that he was God himself and that all of the other religious systems are dead ends. So how do you kind of override that clear teaching and say you can choose him or not when he said, if you don't choose me, then you're not going to heaven, you're going to hell?

[Tim (Hare Krishna Devotee)]

Well, we, like I said, we believe that we treat the spiritual master as, you know, the closest representative to God that we can get in this material world. So I believe his statement is true. I do believe that he is God. He is not. That he is necessarily the supreme personality. Even if he's not, it's irrelevant because if you follow his teachings as it is stated, then you're going to get the most benefit in your life.

[Narrator/Commentator]

It does not get any more post modern than that. Who would have thought from a Hare Krishna? Does nobody ever hold to the truth these days? The world doesn't. We Christians should. Nevertheless, you are going to run into that philosophical worldview. I don't care to whom you witness. They are so infected by the disease of postmodernism. How do you get around it? And the answer, I think, is you don't. I think you need to cut through it with something supernatural and true. So that is what we will endeavor to do. We'll continue our conversation with Tim the postmodern Hare Krishna. You know, there used to be a day when somebody didn't need that many labels to understand what their actual religious perspective was. We'll continue on a Witness Wednesday with Postmodernism Hare Krishna next on Wretched Radio.

[Todd Friel]

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[Narrator/Commentator]

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[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

You want to send your kids someplace where they actually still teach the Bible, not just based on a document that

[Narrator/Commentator]

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[Todd Friel]

us haven't really thought about persecution. Not the real kind, not the kind where following Jesus actually costs you something. But Christians throughout history have indeed faced it, and depending on where things are headed, we might too. So what does the Bible say you're supposed to do when the pressure mounts? That's exactly what our resource persecution is all about. It's teaching built on the book of 1 Peter with historical context. From the Fox's Book of Martyrs, you'll get a biblical framework for faithfulness. When things aren't easy anymore, fix your hope on heaven, grow in holiness and submit to authority unless they tell you to sin and keep proclaiming the Gospel. Anyway, this is honest teaching and it's more timely than any of us may want to admit persecution. Available now on Fortis Plus. Download the app for free on your smartphone, on your smart TV, or just simply go to fortisplus.org.

[Wretched Radio Announcer]

Know your church fathers Hippolytus was perhaps the most important theologian of the third century. He wrote a ten volume book called Refutation of All Heresies, which catalogued and criticized hundreds of pagan philosophies, gnostic teachings, and Christian heresies. Hippolytus was exiled and died a martyr under the Roman Empire. This is Wretched Radio with Todd Friel.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

Ding ding ding ding ding ding ding.

[Narrator/Commentator]

Who's there? A postmodern Hare Krishna. This is Wretched Radio on a Witness Wednesday. There I am walking the streets of Atlanta. I hear the cacophony of clattering simbles and you know the sound. It's the sound of Hari Krishnas. They go out onto the streets as their form of. Well, I wouldn't want to call it evangelism, but it sort of is. They believe that if they can get Hare Krishna stuck into somebody's noggin, that's actually helping somebody. You just repeat that mantra and then you will be pleasing Hare Krishna. You will be pleasing to the great big deity, whoever that might happen to be. And so that is why you'll see Hare Krishna is out in the streets. They're not really intent on on converting you into Hare Krishna ism. They'd simply like to attach their tenants to your system. Why? Because it appears postmodernism, it is latched onto Hare Krishna ism ness as much as it has any other world view. So let us continue our conversation with Tim. The postmodern Hare Krishna had to figure out a way how do I, how do I, how Do I deal with this mess? Because that's basically what it is. And the answer is the same. I don't care if it's a postmodern Roman Catholic, if it's a postmodern Buddhist, it makes no difference. We must ultimately get to the gospel.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

Would you agree that we are sinners?

[Tim (Hare Krishna Devotee)]

Most definitely.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

Yeah.

[Narrator/Commentator]

Well, we got some agreement there.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

Okay, so what is sin?

[Tim (Hare Krishna Devotee)]

Sin, I mean, sin is. Just surrounds us in this material world. Just being in this material world. This material world is a perverted reflection of the spiritual world, you know, it's like everything here is like an illusion, you know?

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

To what do you sin?

[Tim (Hare Krishna Devotee)]

Of course.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

Okay, so like, without, like, opening up the books, what would be a sin that you've committed?

[Tim (Hare Krishna Devotee)]

I don't know. Like, offending people is a sin, you know, and it's like we don't all agree sometimes. Yeah, lying. You know, everyone lies sometimes.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

And what about, say, lust?

[Tim (Hare Krishna Devotee)]

Lust, yeah. That's a big one, you know.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

So you've done those things like I've done?

[Tim (Hare Krishna Devotee)]

Yeah, we've all have.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

Yeah. So how does Krishna settle that score from Christianity? Jesus said, look, you deserve God's wrath and judgment because you've sinned. But he's made the ultimate sacrifice. The perfect sacrifice is a payment for our sins. So I can be forgiven and I can be reunited with God because of what Jesus did. What is the salvation method to have your sins forgiven as a Hare Krishna Bhakti.

[Tim (Hare Krishna Devotee)]

Bhakti, which is devotional service just serving him. You know, we're always going to have sin. Of course, the law of karma is explained in Bhagavad Gita, too. As we do things, we took on negative and positive effects. But to get rid of those effects, we perform devotional service and we serve the Lord. So through that process and through the process of chanting, which is bhakti, we expel these aspects of karma, good and bad.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

Once again, I'm not trying to be, like, cheeky about this, of course, we're just talking. But let's say I just lusted. How much singing do I need to do to make that go away?

[Tim (Hare Krishna Devotee)]

Yeah, I mean, that's not like a specific thing I could say, you know, we just. We do the best we can, just try to serve, you know, and if we're just. We try to the, you know, there's nine process of bhakti, you know, and the first one is hearing, which includes reading, you know, so we try to learn and we try to hear from our spiritual master. And so the second one is chanting. So we try to chant and then you have like remembering, you know, you try to remember God, you know, through chanting, we remember, we're glorifying. It's like a connection, you know, connect with God.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

So could I rightly summarize Hare Krishna as a work righteousness system?

[Tim (Hare Krishna Devotee)]

Yeah, I mean, I guess in a general sense, because, yeah, we practice devotional service and that can be on a basic level, though, just through reading. Just through reading. The text is a form of bhakti, you know.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

But I do something to inherit reuniting with Krishna.

[Tim (Hare Krishna Devotee)]

Yeah, I mean, you're holding the pamphlet right there. And you're getting benefit just by seeing, you know, you've said Hare Krishna many times in this interview. And I believe that you're going to get a lot of benefit from that. Just because we're discussing about God, you know, we're both going to get most benefit from that.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

That's pretty mystical sounding.

[Tim (Hare Krishna Devotee)]

Well, God is mystical, obviously. If he's everything, he has to be mystical.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

You know, give me your best pitch and in a pithy way, I'll give you mine and we'll call it a day. Shake hands and be friends. Go.

[Tim (Hare Krishna Devotee)]

The goal of Bhagavad Gita and all religion is love of go. And that's what we need to try to achieve in this life. So love of God is the final answer, really. Love of God.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

Okay, here's my shot. God is one and he has laws because he's holy, perfect, righteous and just. And anybody who breaks his laws, he will make sure that justice is served by punishing them. We are hopeless unless we have a payment for ourselves. Jesus Christ, the second Person of the Trinity. That's the Elohim in Genesis, being God's referred to their Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ willingly sacrificed his life on behalf of sinners as the payment, the ransom for our sins so that we can inherit eternal life. So my offer to you would be, Jesus said, come unto me, all of you who are weary and heavy ladies laden, trying to work your way and appease God through works, and I will give you rest. My yoke is easy, my burden is light. And you can actually inherit eternal life exclusively through Jesus Christ and his works by grace alone, if you will repent and put your trust in him and reject all other systems. That's my pitch.

[Tim (Hare Krishna Devotee)]

I'm going to agree with that whole statement, except for maybe the last statement. All other systems, there are benefits you can see in other systems. Maybe you have a preferred method. No one is. Everybody's different. I know exactly what you're saying. You know, it's the classic argument that Jesus is the only way. But you're not going to convince anyone out there if you're really dogging on them, telling them they're going to hell. So you got to try to uplift them, which I think you're doing a good job of.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

Do you know the first and second commandments in the ten Commandments?

[Tim (Hare Krishna Devotee)]

I couldn't name them off the head, you know, I've studied them.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

But I am the Lord your God. You will have no other gods before me. Right. And you shall not make a graven image of me. Now that can be done. Fashioning a God with your hands or with your brain, you make up a God that isn't the God of the Bible. Those first two commandments. Tim would say all other systems aren't correct. That is the only system now that is either true or false. But it's not an optional tack on to Hare ka. So my encouragement to you would be either reject Christianity totally or repent and put your trust in Jesus and reject the other sisters. I don't think Jesus gives us the option to just pick and choose.

[Tim (Hare Krishna Devotee)]

I understand the argument. You know, it's kind of like the eternal debate between Christianity and every other religion. It's just, you know, it's just kind of a hard debate because you know, you have the text, you have translations, you have all this whole timeline of you know, where are these.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

But you've got the same issue that I've got. I know and I've. And I've got about almost 6,000 partial, fragmented or whole manuscripts that are dated very close to the actual events. So I would say this, the Bible we could. That was accurate. That doesn't mean it's true, but it is accurate. So the question really then becomes, surrounds Jesus. Did he really die and resurrect from the dead claiming to be your only way of salvation? Or was he lying or was he nuts? Pretty much the only option. So again just an encouragement to you would be either receive Jesus Christ as your savior or reject him. But he doesn't give you permission to just add him on as a good teeth.

[Tim (Hare Krishna Devotee)]

That's fine. I mean I'm gonna agree with you. I'm gonna agree with you because I love you. But, but I believe Krishna has the supreme personality of Godhead which just being it's not Krishna, it's like Krishna, he's just a name of God. So it's like we're gonna, we're gonna have like we're gonna just keep going back and forth.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

That's right.

[Hannah (Skeptical Listener)]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

Read the Gospel of John. See what you think.

[Tim (Hare Krishna Devotee)]

I've read it.

[Narrator/Commentator]

Sweet.

[Tim (Hare Krishna Devotee)]

I've read it. I'll read it again. But I have read it. And I do believe in the Bible. I had a Bible study going with me and my mom, actually. We were reading the Bible and the Bhagavad Gita. We were reading first the Bible and then because she's not. She's just like you, she's not into this stuff at all. But I was like, let's see it comparatively. And so we would read it. We would read the exact same things in Bhagavad Gita. And I would be able to show her that, you know, know these teachings are universal teachings. Because if you tell me that God is only for this group of people and he doesn't care about anyone else, obviously he cares about everyone. And he's trying to spread, you know, throughout the whole world. He is God. He can do anything. So.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

All right. So we. We're gonna park disagreeing, but I understand you better.

[Tim (Hare Krishna Devotee)]

I don't think we disagree. I think we agree. You disagree with me. I agree with you.

[Narrator/Commentator]

All right, Jim.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

Okay, sir.

[Tim (Hare Krishna Devotee)]

All right. Have a good day. How do Krishna and praise the Lord Jesus.

[Narrator/Commentator]

Thank you.

[Tim (Hare Krishna Devotee)]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

All right.

[Wretched Radio Announcer]

M. All right.

[Tim (Hare Krishna Devotee)]

See you.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

See you.

[Narrator/Commentator]

Well, that was a little bit awkward because I did not want to give him the oppression that I agreed with his worldview in any way, shape or form. So he. He blessed me, but I couldn't return that favor. Postmodernism, it is everywhere. This is wretched radio.

[Todd Friel]

And it's now time for your daily Fortis news breaker production of Fortis Institute. We start at Washington state where William Flournoy, who presents as a woman under the name Isabel and served on the taxpayer funded youth advisory Board, has been charged with first degree rape of a six to seven month old baby girl. Investigators say Flournoy was babysitting the infant in 2023 when a Google cybertip flagged an image he had uploaded of the assault. FBI agents found a pacifier, a stuffed animal and a child's cup in his room at a transient housing facility. He's also facing separate charges for possessing and distributing child sexual abuse material. California, however, however won't be outdone. The state's elderly parole board has voted to release Gregory Vogelsang, sentenced to 355 years for kidnapping and molesting multiple children between the ages of 5 and 11. He served just 27 of those years Vogelsang himself admitted at his hearing that his attraction to children is always going to be there, though he says he knows his triggers now, that was apparently sufficient enough for him to be released 328 years early. Down in Texas, Democratic Senator James Tallarico, who campaigns as a Presbyterian pastor, continues generating material he's declared that God is non binary opened legislative prayer by cycling through Islamic, Hindu and Buddhist names for God. He also claims that there are at least six biological sexes and that pro life convictions are, in his words, unchristian. The Democrats, they know they have a faith problem with voters, and their solution is to find someone willing to wear Christianity like a costume but hope nobody actually reads the label. Florida took a different approach to something election integrity. The state's legislature passed a bill requiring proof of citizenship to vote, with Governor DeSantis expected to sign it. The law leans on the existing Real ID infrastructure, so most residents won't need any extra steps. Meanwhile, in Maine, Democratic Governor General Janet Mills is running attack ads against her own primary challenger, Graham Platner, over comments he made on Reddit in 2013 about women and sexual assault. Platner, who has Bernie Sanders backing and is somehow leading Mills in the polls despite the controversy, dismissed the spot as a desperate attempt for relevance. On a brighter note, Disney debuted a new cruise ad during the Oscars called Midnight magic. It was 90 seconds and portrayed a father and son taking late night walks on a ship across decades of life.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

Life.

[Todd Friel]

There was really no messaging or agenda, but people were reduced to tears and one viewer wrote back to the basics for Disney. Whether this signals a genuine course correction or just good market instincts, that remains to be seen. And that wraps up today's Fortis News break. I'm Jimmy Hicks. If you want more, you can download Fortis or sign up to become a Fortis insider for exclusive weekly content. Both of those things can be [e-mail] and don't forget, you can subscribe to Fortis News on your favorite podcast app. And to get these updates daily and until tomorrow, go serve your king.

[Wretched Radio Announcer]

Important dates in Christian history 70 AD Titus destroys Jerusalem and the Temple, the separation between Christianity and Judaism deepens and Christians spread throughout the Roman Empire, spreading the gospel as they go. God uses tragedy to forward his great commission. This is Wretched Radio with Todd Friel.

[Narrator/Commentator]

Well, let's give this a go, shall we? This is Wretched Radio on a Witness Wednesday. Gonna try a little blaze Pascal no, not you've got a God shaped hole in your heart. Only Jesus can fill so give him a go, and we'll give you your money back if you don't like the results. Pascal, he offered that we should ask people if God exists, if he is this amazing, Would you like to know this God? And then demonstrate that he actually is that God? So present him in a way that makes him seem magnificent and then show them that he is. I'm gonna give that a go. At Georgia State University.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

As you observe the world, do you ever see evil existing?

[Hannah (Skeptical Listener)]

I think so, yeah. Like, I think there are some people who just are inherently not good.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

People do bad things, right?

[Hannah (Skeptical Listener)]

Yeah. Just have no remorse or anything like that. I feel like. Yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

Sociopaths, that. Okay. So when you look at the planet, though, do you ever see good things? Beautiful things?

[Hannah (Skeptical Listener)]

For sure, yeah.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

You personally, do you ever, as you're kind of just thinking and pondering, ever feel guilt for actions that you've done or things that you wish you'd done in the past that you knew you should have done done?

[Hannah (Skeptical Listener)]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

Slightly different emotion, shame, which is. Yikes. I sure hope nobody finds out about this. Do you ever have that sense?

[Hannah (Skeptical Listener)]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

The emotion of fear. Not of heights or going outside, but specifically, do you ever fear death and what might happen when you die?

[Hannah (Skeptical Listener)]

Absolutely.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

You do?

[Hannah (Skeptical Listener)]

Okay.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

All right, so those things. Here would be my question. Do you have an explanation for all of those things? Why do we see good and evil? Why do we sometimes feel guilty and shameful? And why does it seem that we all really do fear death? Does your worldview explain those things?

[Hannah (Skeptical Listener)]

I was raised, like, Christian, and so under Christianity, those things have, like, meaning. And, you know, there's an easy way to, like, explain them. But having a view where, like, you don't really think God exists, there's not really, like, a cosmic sense of good and evil. It's just kind of, like, inherent, I guess, in some people. Or, like. Like a tiger just. Is a tiger. Like, they killing something is not, like, good or evil. It's just what a tiger does. But humans are a little different. They have, like. I don't know. They should at least feel shame and guilt.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

A moral sense.

[Hannah (Skeptical Listener)]

Yeah, for sure. So, all right.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

So I. I just kind of. What I think I heard is you grew up in a Christian home, but you yourself do not believe in God.

[Hannah (Skeptical Listener)]

More or less. I'm, like, on the fence still, but.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

All right.

[Hannah (Skeptical Listener)]

But.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

Okay, so more or less. All right, so here's. I want. I want to keep. I want to keep going. And this. This might sound familiar to you if you grew up In a Christian home. All right, if it's my premise, if a God exists, who could explain why we see good and evil, who can lay out an explanation that is credible and works harmoniously where it's not contradictory in any way, and if God, this God, could deal with our guilt problem, remove our shame that we feel, and somehow help us overcome our fear of death, if that God exists and he is willing to deal with our guilt and our fear and our shame and make sense of the planet because he is good and because he is kind, would you, Hannah, want to know that God and be in a relationship with

[Hannah (Skeptical Listener)]

that God if there was proof that he existed or they existed? Sure. Yeah. Why not?

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

So if that God exists, you're saying, yep, I'm in.

[Hannah (Skeptical Listener)]

If I got proof for it, I would. Yeah.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

Okay. Now, I think I know the reason why you might say no to that, but I'm going to ask you. So right now you do not believe that. That God exists, or you're on the fence about that God?

[Hannah (Skeptical Listener)]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

So what proof would it require for you to say yes? Yep, I'm all in.

[Hannah (Skeptical Listener)]

Probably seeing them, like seeing is believing. So if I were to see such a being. I suppose so.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

All right, let me. Let me just see if we can define that more. In what form? How would God have to manifest himself for you, for you to go, yep, he exists?

[Hannah (Skeptical Listener)]

I don't know. I haven't thought that far about it.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

Could I somehow persuade you that there is a man, probably multiple men and women, who made this microphone? Even if you never see them, could I persuade you that they exist?

[Hannah (Skeptical Listener)]

Well, yeah, because the microphone exists and I know how microphones are made and the process behind that and everything.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

Could I then conclude or try to lay forth for your consideration that God exists, His handiwork, what he has made, that the universe exists, you, exists. You're intricately designed, far more so than this microphone. We intuit there's a microphone maker because we see the microphone. That's the proof of a microphone maker. We have a universe maker. Therefore, equally, we conclude, or where there's a universe, therefore we conclude there's a universe maker. So God shows himself to you through his handiwork. Would that be fair?

[Hannah (Skeptical Listener)]

I guess so. But there's, like, scientific, like, you know, science has proven, you know, the leaves are green because of photosynthesis and, you know, other stuff like that.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

So, yeah, I think science does a fine job of trying to figure out how things work, but they can explain why things work. Why is there photosynthesis? Why are There leaves. Why is there life? Why is there anything at all? I don't think science can answer those questions because those types of questions aren't repeatable and observable and verifiable. They're not really scientific questions. And they really kind of come to the end of themselves by explaining where did all of this stuff come from and how did it get so designed? So I think still that even though science tries, it still is not as strong as argument as this microphone is to demonstrate the existence of God.

[Hannah (Skeptical Listener)]

That's fair. Yeah.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

But I suspect that didn't persuade you. No, no, it didn't.

[Hannah (Skeptical Listener)]

I'm still not persuaded.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

Yeah, but were you just being polite to me about science not being able to explain it, or do you still say, nope, science has an explanation for this?

[Hannah (Skeptical Listener)]

I don't think it has. I mean, science doesn't have an explanation for everything. Like we don't know everything. And that's like fine to not know everything. So.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

So is, is there something else that is keeping you from believing in this God besides science?

[Hannah (Skeptical Listener)]

How? I've seen other people interpret the word of God and what they do with that and from the. Just the origins of it as well, the creation of the Catholic Church and then like the Reformation, just because this one guy wanted to get a divorce, so he made his own church and that's where Martin Luther came from as well, is he didn't believe the same things these people believed, so they started their own belief. And so religion is just kind of cult, more or less. But. Yeah, so right.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

Yeah, you're right. Men have made a hash

[Hannah (Skeptical Listener)]

whether or not, yeah, God was real and had like a whole plan and everything because Jesus of Nazareth was real. So he was a real person. And same with like the prophet Muhammad, was this a real person. And the Mormon Church guy, Joseph, whatever, he was a real person. But like whether or not their religion is like the end all be all to like when I die, what's gonna happen? You know, it. I don't know.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

Yeah. You know the thing that I would say, I would agree with, with you that humans have really made a hash of things in a lot of ways. But I would suggest to you that really doesn't have any sort of determiner as to whether or not this God actually exists. It would be like, let's say you had five kids and they were all really naughty. I wouldn't judge you based on them. I don't think we should judge God based on some of the actions of some of his presumed followers. I still think we need to test these claims on their face as opposed to what human beings have done with them. So you're right. I think humans have done a pretty miserable job with religion. But that still begs the question, is this God real? Does he exist? Is it true? So if we still are asking that, so same question, what might it be, Hannah, that would keep you from going, you know, I really like the idea that if that God exists, that's a good God. He forgives sins, he helps me with my shame, he makes sense of the world, he offers me everlasting life. That's a good, that's like a really good offer. It would be like me coming up to you and this would be trite and saying, hannah, I've got a million dollars for you. And you arguing and going, well, you, you know, people have done bad things with money. Well, yes, they've done bad things with money, but I've got a million dollars for you. But you kept arguing with me the problem with money or where it was printed or that it had too many trees cut down to make it and what have you. But I've got a million dollars for you, Hannah. I'm saying this God exists and he is good and he wants to forgive you and to adopt you and to help you deal with guilt and shame and fear. What would keep you from believing that? That's still my question.

[Hannah (Skeptical Listener)]

I just don't have any undeniable proof like the Bible was written by man and religion was created by man. I just don't believe it. I just think the interpretations that people have done with it. Everyone has their own. They pick and choose what they want from the Bible and everything like that.

[Narrator/Commentator]

Oh, those old ruses again. Prepare to respond to them because you will inevitably get them. We will do that next. From Georgia State University, Witness Wednesday on Wretched radio.

[Todd Friel]

Ask most Christians what they know about hermeneutics and you'll likely get Herman, who? That sounds like somebody's uncle. Is that the guy that always comes and just stays quiet in the back of the small group? Hermeneutics is actually the art and science of interpreting scripture. And if you don't know how to do it rightly, you're going to read the Bible wrongly. Worse, you're actually going to be an easy target for every false teacher with a podcast and a proof text. Herman, who is basically a master's level education and how to read the the Bible correctly and it's condensed into something you can actually finish. You'll learn how to interpret a 2000 year old book in a 21st century world without twisting it into something it was never meant to say. By the end of it, you'll never read scripture the same way again, and you'll never have the wool pulled over your eyes by someone who sounds confident but doesn't know what they're talking about. Herman who it is streaming right now for free on Fortis Download the app on your smartphone, on your smart TV, or just simply go to fortisplus.org hey, thanks for listening to Wretched Radio today. You know, a lot of ministries talk to individuals and that's fine. But somewhere along the way, the local church gets forgotten. And we believe that to be a big problem because the local church is the institution that Jesus promised to build. It's not an afterthought, it's the plan. And that's why we exist at Fortis Institute. We exist to strengthen local churches, not replace them. Everything we create, our podcasts, our videos, all of our resources and teaching, it's all designed to be useful to pastors and small group leaders and church members who want to grow, not trying to be your church. As a matter of fact, we're always pointing to your local church. And if that mission is something that resonates with you, would you consider joining us as an ongoing monthly gospel partner? Your support helps us create content that equips the saints and strengthens the body of Christ. And we know you have questions about what that would look like in your life, and we've got [e-mail] Help us be a part of something that serves the local church. Wretched Amazing Grace Amazing Gospel Conflict. That's not an if in your life, that's a when. You will most definitely disagree with your spouse, your kids, your co workers, your in laws, maybe all of them in the same week. The question is whether those disagreements turn your home into a war zone or something you can actually resolve. That's what our resource Conflict is all about. Todd Friel, who admits he's an expert in conflict conflict mostly because he's caused so much of it, and Dr. John street will both challenge you to respond in ways so radically biblical that even the people you've been fighting with will take notice. They'll walk you through biblical reconciliation step by step so you can actually heal what's been broken. If you're exhausted from the same arguments on repeat, if your home feels more like a battlefield than a refuge, there is a better way. And it's not another self help technique. It is Scripture Conflict is streaming right now on Fortis for free. Just download the app on your smartphone, on your smart TV, or simply go to fortisplus.org.

[Wretched Radio Announcer]

Books of the Bible. God told Hosea the prophet to marry a prostitute to illustrate Israel's unfaithfulness to God and God's faithful love for Israel. When Hosea's wife returned to prostitution and was enslaved, he bought her back and loved her. When you are mistreated and abandoned, remember that is how you treated God. But if you turn to God, he will forgive you. This is Wretched Radio with Todd Friel.

[Narrator/Commentator]

Oh, the same old laundry list. This is Wretched Radio on a witness Wednesday at Georgia State University, witnessing to a young lady trying to persuade her. If you can imagine a God this amazing, would you want to know Him? The answer should inevitably be yes. If a God can forgive sins, remove my shame, give me purpose in life, give me everlasting life, yeah, I'd like to know that God and then prove that he is. I endeavored to do that with this young lady and then what was I hit by? It wasn't snarky, but it was the same old laundry list. Hey, the, the Christians, they've done a lot of bad things. The Bible, the interpretation, translation, it's like the telephone game. People pick and choose, on and on and on they go to try to do what is it really to undermine the veracity of the Bible? Well, yeah, but it has a. I think a grander end game. If we can show that the Bible has problems, if that there are historical deficiencies in Christianity that allows me to say God doesn't exist and I don't need to deal with Him. That is what is going on underneath people's objections to God. And so it is. This young lady offered her objections and I offered this response.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

All right, let me. Tell me what you think of this premise. You might reject this, all right, but I'm gonna. I'll. I'll state it and then you agree or disagree degree that the things that you've mentioned to me aren't genuine reasons for rejecting the validity of those claims as much as they are excuses. Because I think most of us don't like the idea of that God existing because we recognize if he does exist and if he's good and if he's holy and if He's God and my maker, I'm going to have to follow his rules the way that he wants me to live, and I'd prefer to live the way that I want to live. So we tend to come up with some excuses to Reject it. But the real issue has more to do with our will and our lack of desire to surrender our will to the will of God. Do you think that that maybe is what. Is the underlying reason for your excuses for rejecting that God?

[Hannah (Skeptical Listener)]

I feel like it is for a lot of people. I'm not entirely. Like I said, I'm on the fence about the whole thing. I grew up in the church and everything like that, so I don't know. I know it's an excuse for a lot of people that they'd rather like, be hedonistic about things and then instead of, you know, living as God would intend if God did exist, but. Yeah, so.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

But you don't think that's true for you?

[Hannah (Skeptical Listener)]

I don't think so, no. I. I feel like I'm an inherently good person. Like, I try to do good things. I. You know, morally, I feel like I'm pretty sound, so would you be kind

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

enough to let me test that claim?

[Hannah (Skeptical Listener)]

Sure.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

Hannah, have you ever told a lie?

[Hannah (Skeptical Listener)]

I mean. Yeah, everyone has.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

Oh, I agree.

[Narrator/Commentator]

I agree.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

All right. How many do you think you've told?

[Hannah (Skeptical Listener)]

At least three.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

At least three. Okay, at least three. All right, so if I told at least three lies, what name. What word would you use to describe me? You would call me a. I mean, a liar.

[Hannah (Skeptical Listener)]

I guess if you're only basing your personality on the lies you've told.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

Well, it would, but it would be sort of like a criminal, like a thief. He robs one bank. I know he's done a lot of things, but he's a thief. He might be a father, he might be an employee, but he's a thief. All right. Have you ever stolen anything

[Hannah (Skeptical Listener)]

from, like, a store or person or just person?

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

Coins from your parents, from your mom's purse? A pen that didn't belong to you? Downloading music, whatever.

[Hannah (Skeptical Listener)]

I get downloading music. Piracy.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

Well, it is, right?

[Hannah (Skeptical Listener)]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

Yeah. Okay. Because, I mean, we've all taken something that didn't belong to. If you cheated on somebody's paper, you took their work and used it as your own. So that's, in a sense, stealing too. All right, what about moral purity? Like, always having pure thoughts. I think almost everybody would say, I'm not always pure in my mind.

[Hannah (Skeptical Listener)]

I mean, yeah, everyone's human.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

What about down? Taking the Lord's name in vain, Blasphemy. Using God's name as a curse word. Omg. That type of thing. Have you ever done that?

[Hannah (Skeptical Listener)]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

Ever dishonor your parents?

[Hannah (Skeptical Listener)]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

Ever desired something that didn't belong to You?

[Hannah (Skeptical Listener)]

Yes.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

Okay, I'm kind of rattling off the Ten Commandments. Right, Right. So you said you're a morally good person, but you just admit, admitted you've broken really, all of God's laws. Wouldn't you actually be a guilty criminal in the eyes of God?

[Hannah (Skeptical Listener)]

In the eyes of God, sure. But as just your average everyday person,

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

I agree. But that just puts us in the same boat with a lot of other criminals, that's all. I'm with you. Look, I'm older than you, and I'm a bigger sinner than you, so I've got no problem going. Yeah. Yep. I'm not a good person. I don't think I'm a good person. I think I'm a bad person who does bad things. And it sounds like you do the same bad things that I do. And the one who really matters in our judgment is not ourselves, because we all tend to think we're pretty good people. But what really matters is what the judge thinks. Criminal goes into the courtroom, he can think that he's really good, but it's just irrelevant. It's really the determination of the judge. So if God judges you based on his laws, let's say the Ten Commandments, let's just say. Let's create a little courtroom. You get brought in. God is the judge. He opens up the books. He knows not just what you've done, but thought, life, everything. Would he find you innocent or guilty? Hannah?

[Hannah (Skeptical Listener)]

He'd probably find me guilty. But I also feel like laws can kind of be. Be, like, arbitrary and, like, situational. And I just. The whole idea of God as, like, a judge with, like, a gavel or whatever they're called, it's kind of ridiculous to me.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

How come?

[Hannah (Skeptical Listener)]

I don't know. I just don't think.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

But do you ever watch, like, the evening news and you see these thugs, they hurt people and they rape people and they murder people and they get off. Doesn't that kind of cause you to go, man, where's justice? I want justice. I don't want people to do those wicked things and get away with it. Don't we have a sense of justice, that guilty criminals should be punished for their crimes? Wouldn't God exact the same sort of punishment from guilty criminals? I mean, he is a judge. He is just. He does deal with guilty criminals. We like it on Earth when a criminal gets what he deserves. Shouldn't God give us what we deserve?

[Hannah (Skeptical Listener)]

I don't feel like some crimes are the same. I mean, like, was it like raping someone? Isn't like the same as, like, stealing chapstick from my mom.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

I agree. So I do agree with that. I think that there are different types. For instance, you know, murdering somebody versus, you know, I really don't like that guy. Sure, I hate that guy. You know, there's clearly a difference in the level of crime, but that doesn't mean that they still aren't crimes. So, for instance, Jesus said, you've heard it said of old, thou shalt not commit adultery. I say, look with lust, you've committed adultery in your heart. God's standard appears to be much higher than ours. So while it is far more grievous to actually commit the act, God sees the thought, life, and the intentions of our hearts. It's that he's. We see really bad things. Like rape. You and I would be repulsed by rape. Correct. Okay. We see that. Okay. That's because our standard is about here. Well, God's standard is way up here. So he's repulsed by rape, but he hates lying and he hates cheating and he hates deceit and he hates stealing and he hates blasphemy. He hates coveting. Because his standard is so high. Because he's just not like us. He's higher than us. If that's the God of the Bible and the God who exists, Hannah, the books are open on you. He knows it all. He'd find you guilty of breaking his laws. And no matter how much we protest, doesn't matter. It's the judge who determines. Here's the law. Laws. Here's my standard. Here's the punishment. You and I would be in hot water. We'd be in hell is where we would be. Right?

[Hannah (Skeptical Listener)]

Everyone would like.

[Interviewer (Christian Apologist)]

By his standards, I totally agree. I agree. And I think that's the universal problem. And the universal solution is he sent his son to die for us so that we could be forgiven. God the Son took the wrath of God the Father on your behalf so that you could be forgiven if you'd put your trust in him. And that way your court case can be dismissed because somebody stepped into the courtroom of judgment and paid your fine. So Jesus has paid your fine for you. So that suddenly makes what seems like a scary religion a good religion.

[Narrator/Commentator]

I was at. That was how I chose to respond to the same old, same old. Now, there's nothing wrong with engaging in apologetics, a defense for all of those accusations. But don't do it at the expense of presenting the gospel. Try to leave Jesus ringing in their ears. Now, that was what I endeavored to do. Did Hannah fall to her knees in repentance and faith. No. But you or I cannot get that job done. Only God can. And so you and I must find a way to respond to pretty much the same old, same old accusations and make sure we open up the law to bring about the knowledge of sin. Then we preach the cross, repentance and faith, and let God do his work that only he can do. Take yourself off the hook of not having a high success rate when it comes to evangelism, because the only one that ever has success with conversion is God. And until tomorrow, go serve your king.