Episode 1590 - Jessica Lange - WTF with Marc Maron Podcast

Summary6 min read

WTF with Marc Maron - Episode 1590: Jessica Lange

Release Date: November 11, 2024

Introduction

In Episode 1590 of the WTF with Marc Maron Podcast, host Marc Maron engages in a profound and revealing conversation with the acclaimed actress Jessica Lange. Celebrated for her versatile performances across film, television, and theater, Jessica Lange joins Marc to delve into her illustrious career, personal experiences, and insights into the evolving landscape of the entertainment industry.

Early Life and Artistic Beginnings

Jessica Lange begins by sharing her journey from Minnesota to the vibrant art scenes of Europe. At 18, she left her hometown to explore the creative expanse of Paris, immersing herself in experimental theater and mime.

Jessica Lange [17:32]: "I first went to Paris in 1969 with a group of young photographers and filmmakers. It was thrilling to be surrounded by underground artists and the palpable energy of the city."

Her time in Paris was transformative, leading her to study under Étienne Decroux, a pioneer of mime concrete—a technique that emphasized precise and abstract physical movements.

Jessica Lange [31:06]: "Studying with Decroux was a discipline that connected me to a deeper form of physical expression. It’s something I carry with me even today."

Breakthrough with King Kong

Jessica recounts her unexpected casting in the iconic film "King Kong," which marked her entry into mainstream cinema. Despite having no prior success in modeling or acting at the time, a spontaneous audition led by a modeling agent caught the attention of legendary producer Dino De Laurentiis.

Jessica Lange [43:22]: "I walked onto the soundstage for King Kong without knowing what to expect. It was surreal to be part of such an ambitious project."

The film, known for its groundbreaking practical effects and the formidable mechanical Kong, earned Jessica critical acclaim, notably from esteemed critic Pauline Kael, who championed her performance.

Jessica Lange [46:38]: "Pauline Kael’s support meant everything. It gave me the confidence to pursue more challenging roles."

Collaborations with Influential Directors

Jessica highlights her collaborations with visionary directors like Bob Fosse and Sam Shepard, enhancing her craft and expanding her artistic horizons. Working with Fosse on projects like "All That Jazz" introduced her to the rigorous demands of physical performance and creative expression.

Jessica Lange [47:07]: "Bob Fosse was a force of nature—his boundless energy and passion were infectious. Working with him pushed me to new limits."

Her partnership with playwright and director Sam Shepard further deepened her connection to complex characters and emotionally charged narratives. Together, they worked on projects like "Far North" and "Farm," exploring themes of loss, grief, and personal resilience.

Jessica Lange [71:00]: "Sam Shepard’s work allowed me to delve into characters with profound emotional depths. It was both challenging and rewarding."

Approach to Acting and Personal Growth

Throughout the conversation, Jessica emphasizes the importance of vulnerability and authenticity in her performances. She discusses her preference for portraying characters with inherent struggles, believing that tapping into darkness and chaos can lead to more truthful and impactful acting.

Jessica Lange [60:51]: "I’m always drawn to the darkest parts of a character because it allows me to explore vast emotional landscapes and experience profound truths."

Jessica also reflects on her personal growth over the years, acknowledging how life experiences have shaped her approach to her craft. She speaks candidly about dealing with loneliness and loss, both personally and through her characters, finding solace and meaning in her art.

Jessica Lange [73:28]: "In a way, acting takes me out of myself. It’s a means of exploring and coping with the complexities of life."

Reflections on Aging and Loneliness

Jessica contemplates the intersection of aging and artistry, particularly in the context of her latest project, "The Great Lillian Hall," an HBO film exploring dementia. She connects her own feelings of isolation and the narrowing of her personal life with the character she portrays, highlighting the universal themes of loss and memory.

Jessica Lange [74:25]: "Grief, loss, and loneliness are ever-present emotions that resonate deeply in both my life and my work."

She discusses her ongoing commitment to challenging roles, emphasizing that despite the emotional toll, these performances provide a sense of purpose and fulfillment.

Jessica Lange [85:24]: "I still love acting, even when it's exhausting. It gives me something to discover and experience."

Current and Upcoming Projects

Jessica shares insights into her current work and future projects. "The Great Lillian Hall," available on Max, delves into the life of a performing artist grappling with the onset of dementia. Additionally, she mentions plans to explore the later years of Marlene Dietrich, her relationship with Burt Bacharach, and revisiting iconic characters like Blanche DuBois from "A Streetcar Named Desire."

Jessica Lange [88:29]: "One of my upcoming projects is exploring Marlene Dietrich’s post-Las Vegas life, which promises to be a fascinating journey into her personal and professional struggles."

Notable Quotes

Marc Maron [17:26]: "Jessica Lange is one of the greats, with two Oscars, three Emmys, five Golden Globes, and a Tony to her name."
Jessica Lange [37:18]: "When I started acting classes, it felt like everything just came together. It fulfilled aspects of myself that were in the process of discovery."
Jessica Lange [60:57]: "Blue Sky is another one. Blanche DuBois is a classic role that I’ve portrayed three different times, each time diving deeper into her character."
Jessica Lange [73:28]: "Grief, loss, and loneliness are ever-present emotions that resonate deeply in both my life and my work."
Jessica Lange [86:34]: "Aging as an actor brings its own set of challenges, but there's always something to discover and experience."

Conclusion

Marc Maron and Jessica Lange's conversation is a testament to Lange's enduring passion and commitment to her craft. From her early artistic explorations in Paris to her celebrated performances in both film and theater, Jessica provides listeners with an intimate look into the life of a dedicated artist navigating the complexities of fame, creativity, and personal growth. Her reflections offer valuable insights into the transformative power of acting and the relentless pursuit of authenticity in storytelling.

For those interested in exploring more of Jessica Lange’s work and insightful discussions, be sure to check out WTF with Marc Maron Podcast Episode 1590 available on your preferred podcast platform.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

Jessica Lange [17:32]: "I first went to Paris in 1969 with a group of young photographers and filmmakers. It was thrilling to be surrounded by underground artists and the palpable energy of the city."
Jessica Lange [31:06]: "Studying with Decroux was a discipline that connected me to a deeper form of physical expression. It’s something I carry with me even today."
Jessica Lange [43:22]: "I walked onto the soundstage for King Kong without knowing what to expect. It was surreal to be part of such an ambitious project."
Jessica Lange [37:18]: "When I started acting classes, it felt like everything just came together. It fulfilled aspects of myself that were in the process of discovery."
Jessica Lange [60:51]: "I’m always drawn to the darkest parts of a character because it allows me to explore vast emotional landscapes and experience profound truths."
Jessica Lange [85:24]: "I still love acting, even when it's exhausting. It gives me something to discover and experience."

Further Listening

If you enjoyed this episode, consider exploring Episode 853 featuring Jeff Bridges, Jessica's co-star from "King Kong," along with a separate interview with his brother Beau Bridges. Dive deeper into the rich history of Hollywood and the intricate lives of its stars by subscribing to WTF with Marc Maron.

Note: This summary focuses solely on the substantive content of the conversation between Marc Maron and Jessica Lange, omitting advertisements and non-essential segments to provide a coherent and comprehensive overview of the episode.

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Transcript929 lines

[00:01]
Marc Maron
By now you've heard about Airbnb and how you can make some extra money while you're away. But did you also know you can host on Airbnb and have someone else take care of all the details for you? If you're going away for a long trip, an Airbnb co host can handle all the hosting duties. These are high quality local co hosts who create the listing for you, manage your reservations and send messages to your guests. And you'll still make some cash while you're away. It's easier than ever. Find a co host@airbnb.com host all right, let's do this. How are you? What the fuckers? What the fuck, buddies? What the fuck, Nicks? What's happening? What is happening? The jig is up. Whatever you thinking, whatever you're saying about who did what and why and why it happened or whatever, it's done. And now that we sit here in this trauma infused reprieve, between now and the inauguration, I don't know what you're thinking, but it's not going to be good. It's going to be worse than last time. It's going to be much more organized and we are going to be living in an entirely different system of government and cultural dominance. And that is what it is. So personal perseverance and mental hygiene and caring for yourself and others, protecting yourself and others is going to be probably the way it's going to be. I mean, I can only address this, generally speaking, from my point of view, and I'll go on sharing my life and my thoughts and having these conversations that we have on this show with creative people talking about expression and life stuff and transcending difficulty through creativity and art and comedy. You know, that will continue. And I think it's going to be essential to help people maintain their sanity. So before I get into all of this, let me just do some business. Jessica Lang is here today. I talked to her. She's amazing. We recorded this before the election. She's won, you know, really just about all the top prizes you can get for acting in the United States. Two Oscars, three Emmys, five Golden Globes and a Tony. She was recently in an HBO film, which we talked about, which was really quite amazing. I mean, she's an amazing actor. This sort of creative quest for truth on behalf of any legit artist is something amazing to watch. The HBO movie, I think. Yeah, it's called the Great Lillian hall. But we'll talk about that in her life. I'll be touring in January. I'LL be in Sacramento, California at the Crest Theater on Friday, January 10th. I'll be in Napa, California at the Uptown Theater on January 11th. I'm in Fort Collins, Colorado at the Lincoln Center Performance hall on Friday, January 17th Boulder, Colorado at the Boulder Theater on Saturday, January 18th Santa Barbara, California at the Libero Theater on Thursday, January 30th San Luis Obispo, California at the Fremont center on Friday, January 31st in Monterey, California at the Golden State Theater on Saturday, February 1st. Go to wtfpod.com tour for all my dates and links to tickets. We need your questions Also for an upcoming Ask Mark Anything bonus episode, just go to the link in the episode description and send me a question. Then subscribe to the full Marin so you can get every Ask Mark Anything bonus episode. Folks, I can't believe it either, but the holidays are almost here. That means less time to do more things before the year comes to an end. If you have mailing and shipping needs this holiday season, whether it's for your business or just a personal stuff you need to send out, use stamps.com print postage online so you can free up time to focus on getting through this busy season. Stamps.com handles all your mailing and shipping needs wherever, whenever, from your office, your home, or if you're like me, from your garage. You can access all the Postal Service and UPS services you need to run your business right from your computer or phone anytime, day or night. No lines, no traffic, no waiting. You can even do it on the go with the Stamps.com mobile app. Easily schedule package pickups through your Stamps.com dashboard automatically see your cheapest and fastest shipping shipping options from different carriers, and you can order supplies, labels and even printers from the supply store when you run low. More holiday, less hustle. Free up more time with stamps.com Sign up at stamps.com and enter code WTF for a special offer that includes a four week trial plus free postage and a free digital scale. No long term commitments or contracts. That's stamps.com code WTF. So look, I don't know how to speak in the way of like fight the good fight or do this or do that. It all seems to have been an illusion. What we believed in and what we thought possible, even with all the faults and nefariousness of any political system or party. But so I just, I'm not going to sit here for the next however long and say like, you know, we gotta, you know, we gotta fight the good fight. It just seems like that fight is lost. I mean we can certainly do our bit, do service, you know, help other people, do whatever you can. I mean, I guess that is fighting the good fight. But you know, politically it's fucking over. And you know, but that doesn't mean one can't behave like a decent, good person in the service of other people and themselves in a world that is going to be hostile to that. So it's just tricky for me. You know, it's, it's some sort of turning point. I had to figure out how to, to make it funny. I have to figure out how to sort of, you know, be there for my audience. And look, if you're here to, you know, troll or, you know, if you, you know, you don't agree with me politically and now you're out, or you don't agree with me politically but you still like the way I talk to people. I don't give a fuck. Be here if you want. Be here for the wrong reasons. But you know, I'm going to speak to the people that are here and have always been here. And look, you know, you guys know me. You know, by now I'm, you know, I'll try to move through this and talk about something specific that kind of has been, you know, sitting with me. I'm an insecure guy. I don't hide that. I'm a defensive guy. I can be reactive and cranky. But it all comes from a place of a very painful sensitivity that for most of my life has been almost self erasing. And that sensitivity has evolved over the years. An empathy has grown over the years as well. I mean, when I was younger, look, I was a selfish, toxic fuck of a person at times. You know, I've, comedically, I've done all the bad jokes, I've done all the wrong jokes. I've pushed the envelope in every way. I've been shocking, I've been wrong minded. I've done that as, as a comic. It was always important to me to express myself as I was in a time because that's how I felt or that's what I wanted to do and continue to grow. I've done hours and hours and hours of material arcing over many years and I've landed at a place where I have been humbled by age and experience grief, disappointment, just life. And all that has enabled me as an older person to open my heart a bit and behave in a conscientious way and to get back to whatever fear, whatever sensitivity I was experiencing that at the core of myself I believed was just a fractured Self or partial self, it is filled out. And I'm okay. I think I'm an okay human being at this point. And for me, politics has always been cultural in a way. Look, I'm not a dummy. I know that the system has been sold out and is mostly just a money laundering front for corporate interests and greed. I know that. Just the way it's always been. I've spoken to that in comedy over the years. But for me, if the middle management, the president and whoever was under him, was at least fostering some empathy and some sense of tolerance and some concept, or whether it was deep or not, of embracing the cultural ideas of democracy, I was okay with it. Maybe that was short sighted. Obviously it was. And when it comes down to this idea of free speech, which I sent out a missive a week or so ago, that I stand by 100%, I have never said anything other than you can say whatever the fuck you want. We've always been able to say whatever the fuck we want. Now, look, sometimes there were consequences culturally that were damning. Sometimes there were consequences from business interests that align themselves with sensitivity and empathy with a perceived marginalized group. Any consequences for saying anything is seen by the right as censorship and an indicator of wokeness. Now, don't misunderstand me. Corporations aren't generally woke. They aren't acting out of the goodness of their corporate hearts, but instead to protect their bottom lines, which most have realized they don't have to do anymore. Because it's like recalling the Pinto when Netflix decided that they didn't give a shit about LGBT people in the face of any sort of grassroots outcry, comedic material? Eventually they just said, you know, fuck it, we can cut them loose. What are the parameters of this outcry about the freedom of speech, this platform that is so important to the new majority, to the point that they don't care how much blood they get on their hands, how many vulnerable lives they destroy, how much terror they put in the hearts of vulnerable Americans. I mean, to them it seems like a small price to pay for this idea of freedom of speech, which in their actions is utterly conditional. I mean, what is woke? What is this enemy? It seems to me, and I've thought about it, it seems to me that if you speak from a place of sensitivity, of empathy, from a place of vulnerability, or on behalf of the vulnerable, if you speak from a place of fear, whether it be personal or for the world, if you speak from a place of anger at being targeted or suppressed, if you speak in the service of Defending a freedom to live the way you want to live in what is supposed to be a free country. If you speak from a place of concern for others less fortunate or unable to defend themselves, those are the woke things. It seems that in the face of this new majority, the response to these expressions of speech is shut the fuck up. And that's a directive, Shut the fuck up. And that can logically be followed by or I'll shut you up. And that's a threat. They are now the censors. Shut the fuck up. Shut the fuck up. You woke fuck. Shut up. It's not corporate censorship. It's ideological and it has nothing to do with the Constitution. It is the censorship of terrorizing with speech and likely with acts of terror, but hopefully not. Who the fuck knows? But don't underestimate the power of shut the fuck up. And it's on us to stand up to that. So shut the fuck up. Shut the fuck up. That's the way it works. That's the way it's going to work. You know, hopefully it doesn't come down to, you know, blood in the streets, killing people as an example, imprisoning people as an example to terrorize people into either toeing the line or just shutting the fuck up. And it's already happening. I mean, look, I, every day I'm like, I don't want to, I don't want to put myself out there. I don't want to go out there and, you know, do stand up. You know, I don't, you know, like, you know, I have to muster up the strength to speak my mind in the way that I believe is right. Shut the fuck up. Keep your head down and shut the fuck up. Which is honestly pretty easy to do now that we all have these phones. I mean people, 90% of the people are already doing that. Shut the fuck up. Keep your head down. I am, I'm looking at a thing on TikTok. Should be a new slogan, new ad slogan for the iPhone. Keep your head down and shut the Fuck up. The iPhone 20 or whatever fucking number we're on, look. So on another note, I don't have a beard and mustache anymore because I had a shave to look like I was dying. But we wrapped the movie. We have one more bit to do in a few weeks. That's just a days of work. And we wrapped the movie a full 20 days of just 12 hour, 13 hour day shooting. And you know, I, I never went home once during that time and thought I didn't do everything I could. I never went home from a day of shooting thinking, like, I could have done it differently. You know, I kind of stepped up to this thing and I'm not too my own horn. I'm just saying that, like, it couldn't have happened at any other time in my life, but I was ready for this. I was ready to take the chances and the risks that were, you know, implicit in the character and challenge myself and try to get to another place with portraying this person who was, you know, a complex person. But we did it. And, you know, I was a decent guy on set and I was, you know, professional. And I, you know, I guess I should say it out loud because in light of some of the other stuff we're talking about, I feel proud of myself. And that's not a common feeling for me. And I really hope that by the time this comes out next year is available that we have the ability to watch it and people see it, because I think it's a hell of a story. And it's a very kind of complex and deep, touching story, this movie that I just did. And I really hope it cuts together well. This episode is sponsored by Squarespace. We've been using Squarespace for more than a decade to power wtfpod.com but one thing you should know about Squarespace, if you sign up today, it's better than ever. What hasn't changed is Squarespace is still the best platform to create your online presence. But now Squarespace is using cutting edge AI technology to make building your site even easier with better results. Design intelligence from Squarespace helps you design a more personalized website tailored to your unique needs. There are also innovations when it comes to getting you paid. Squarespace Payments is the easiest way to manage your payments in one place. You get started in just a few clicks and start receiving payments right away while giving your customers more ways to pay. And all the standard Squarespace features are still there. The Squarespace video studio, email campaigns, Squarespace analytics and more. Go to squarespace.com wtf for a free trial and when you're ready to launch, use offer code WTF to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. That's squarespace.com WTF offer code WTF? Oh, man. Oh, my God. The trauma infused reprieve of not knowing. Yeah. All right. Welcome to the new world. So look, Jessica Lang and I had a conversation before the election and it was very exciting for me. I think she's one of the greats. Without a doubt, she's in this HBO movie, the Great Lillian hall, which is streaming on Max and I don't know, it was just one of those talks where I was honored to be talking to her, and I was excited that she was so willing to talk. And so I'm going to share it with you now. This is me talking to the great Jessica Lange. You don't live here though, right?
[17:27]
Jessica Lange
No, I live in New York.
[17:29]
Marc Maron
Oh, how's that. How's it going there now? It's coming. It's back, right?
[17:33]
Jessica Lange
Oh, it's back with a vengeance.
[17:35]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[17:35]
Jessica Lange
It's crazy, the number of people on the streets.
[17:38]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[17:38]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[17:39]
Marc Maron
And does it feel different?
[17:40]
Jessica Lange
I mean, it feels more frantic. Oh, feels a little more hysterical.
[17:45]
Marc Maron
Really?
[17:46]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[17:46]
Marc Maron
Like just people are like, we're doing it.
[17:49]
Jessica Lange
Yeah. I think, you know, for some reason there's a lot of tourism there now. Why? Anybody?
[17:55]
Marc Maron
New York?
[17:55]
Jessica Lange
Yeah. I don't know. Yeah, but so you've got, like, throngs of people moving down the street all day long, all evening.
[18:05]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[18:05]
Jessica Lange
You know, and you just wonder, what are you doing? What are you doing?
[18:09]
Marc Maron
They're seeing the sights. You've got. You've gotten used to it. They're going. Guess they're going to the museum. They're going to go in the Empire State Building. They're going to eat some deli food. I don't know.
[18:20]
Jessica Lange
Right. I don't know either.
[18:21]
Marc Maron
But culturally, have you, like. Do you feel like it's not the same as it used to be? You've been there forever? I mean.
[18:26]
Jessica Lange
Well, I mean, I first went there in, like, 1969. That dates me the first time I moved to New York.
[18:32]
Marc Maron
How great was it then?
[18:33]
Jessica Lange
It was so great. Yeah, it was so great because it was filled with, like, you know, underground artists and like, theater. Yeah. Things were just like crackling. I mean, I used to remember being on the Getting to New York and there was. There was a physical, I don't know, visceral sensation on the streets. You could feel it. It was this energy that would just flood your body and you didn't know where it was coming from or where, you know. And there was that particular smell of.
[19:06]
Marc Maron
New York, which was, I think, a multi layered smell.
[19:10]
Jessica Lange
Yes. You didn't want to, like, investigate too closely.
[19:16]
Marc Maron
My friend at Comic used to do a joke about giving someone directions to your house in New York. He'd go, you know, take a ride at the Smell and then take another ride at the very bad Smell.
[19:26]
Jessica Lange
Yeah. But it was. It was thrilling back in those days and filled with young people coming to the city and all artists. Yeah.
[19:36]
Marc Maron
I just talked to Pacino, you know, for like, an hour and a half.
[19:40]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[19:41]
Marc Maron
And I had no idea that, like, when he was a kid, you know, like 18 or 19, you know, he was hanging out at the. What was that at? At Julian Beck's theater. What was that called?
[19:51]
Jessica Lange
Like, just the Living Theater.
[19:53]
Marc Maron
Yes.
[19:53]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[19:54]
Marc Maron
Him and Martin Sheen were, like, kids, and they were cleaning the toilets.
[19:57]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[19:58]
Marc Maron
At the Living Theater. You would never have thought that that would be the background of that guy.
[20:02]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[20:02]
Marc Maron
Were you, like, involved in that kind of stuff?
[20:05]
Jessica Lange
Well, not with that group, but, you know, other kind of experimental, like, theater groups downtown where, you know, everybody was living in illegal lofts.
[20:15]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[20:15]
Jessica Lange
You know, you'd have to hide your garbage because they weren't zoned for res.
[20:20]
Marc Maron
In. The bathroom situation wasn't great.
[20:22]
Jessica Lange
Never.
[20:23]
Marc Maron
You had, like, a makeshift shower in a kitchen that wasn't even a real kitchen.
[20:27]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[20:28]
Marc Maron
Did you live in one of those?
[20:29]
Jessica Lange
Yeah, I lived. The first place we had in New York was a converted, like, flop house on the Bowery.
[20:37]
Marc Maron
Oh, in 69 or 70.
[20:41]
Jessica Lange
69.
[20:41]
Marc Maron
So that was before, like. It was like. It was before, like, punk rock and stuff.
[20:45]
Jessica Lange
Oh, yeah. It was before that, and it was.
[20:47]
Marc Maron
Before New York economically totally tanked.
[20:50]
Jessica Lange
Yeah. That was. What. That was the seventies, right?
[20:53]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah.
[20:53]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[20:54]
Marc Maron
So when you were down there, was it, like, down in that area, you still had a few cobblestone streets. You had. But there was. So the Bowery was still the Bowery.
[21:03]
Jessica Lange
The Bowery was the Bowery. I mean, we'd have, like, you know, you'd step over people in your doorway.
[21:10]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah.
[21:11]
Jessica Lange
And you got to know them because that's where they always slept off. There are, you know, binges and. Yeah, I mean, it was. It was. Yeah.
[21:21]
Marc Maron
Where'd you come in from?
[21:23]
Jessica Lange
I had come back from Paris.
[21:25]
Marc Maron
So you were in Paris for how long?
[21:27]
Jessica Lange
Well, do you really want to know this?
[21:30]
Marc Maron
Yeah, because here's why I want to know it is because I don't think people, like, remember how amazing it was to be an artist without a net, in a way.
[21:42]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[21:42]
Marc Maron
And I think that there. And I notice it with. With some people, but some people don't have the history. But even when I talked to Al. Cause I had read his book, and he doesn't talk. He's not out talking that much. So with this book, he was out. And I didn't even know if he could talk. But he loves to talk. But when I read the book, it was one of these things where we all have our relationship with Public people like you as an actress. People know Jessica Lange. But then all of a sudden, you read something, you hear something, you're like, I didn't know that. That's part of this process. And it also has a context, historically.
[22:19]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[22:20]
Marc Maron
So it's like sharing these stories. Not unlike doing a play in some ways. Personal truth about it, it just kind of. It sheds light on what it used to be like. Like, for an artist. Because that's all going away.
[22:35]
Jessica Lange
Well, it was wide open.
[22:36]
Marc Maron
Right.
[22:37]
Jessica Lange
It was just complete. I mean, you could invent yourself. That's what I loved about that time.
[22:41]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[22:42]
Jessica Lange
Is you could just roll into town and, like, make something up. That's what you did.
[22:47]
Marc Maron
Yeah. I mean, so how. But how'd you get to Paris? How long was that?
[22:50]
Jessica Lange
Well, okay, so the first time I went to Paris, I had, like, met a group of young photographers.
[23:00]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[23:01]
Jessica Lange
Filmmakers.
[23:01]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Were they French?
[23:04]
Jessica Lange
No. At the University of Minnesota, actually.
[23:07]
Marc Maron
That's where you grew up.
[23:08]
Jessica Lange
Yeah, I grew up in Minnesota and went for 1/4 to the university of Minnesota, then met these really fascinating people and ended up just leaving that life behind. And first we went to the south of Spain.
[23:22]
Marc Maron
But what do you do?
[23:23]
Jessica Lange
Just they were making. They wanted to make a documentary about the flamenco gypsies when they would do the fair.
[23:32]
Marc Maron
Right.
[23:32]
Jessica Lange
So you're a kid.
[23:33]
Marc Maron
You're a kid. I'm 18 and it's 1968.
[23:36]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[23:37]
Marc Maron
So things are going the whole. Everything's breaking open.
[23:39]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[23:40]
Marc Maron
And you can feel it.
[23:41]
Jessica Lange
It's thrilling.
[23:42]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Like on campus and everything else.
[23:44]
Jessica Lange
Oh, yeah. You know, sds.
[23:46]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[23:47]
Jessica Lange
I mean. Yeah.
[23:48]
Marc Maron
Okay. So you're like, well, fuck it, let's do it.
[23:51]
Jessica Lange
Yeah. So then we went to Spain.
[23:53]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[23:54]
Jessica Lange
We were working. I mean, they were working. I was observing.
[23:57]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[23:57]
Jessica Lange
I was just like, kind of. Wow.
[24:00]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[24:00]
Jessica Lange
This is southern Spain.
[24:01]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[24:02]
Jessica Lange
These are the gypsies. This is flamenco. Yeah, this is.
[24:05]
Marc Maron
Have you ever been there before? Have you ever been out of the country before? No, always Minnesota.
[24:09]
Jessica Lange
Yeah. I mean, I had been, you know. Yeah. Basically always Minnesota. I grew up there. All sorts of tiny little towns throughout northern Minnesota.
[24:18]
Marc Maron
Snow hardened farmers. Swedes.
[24:22]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[24:23]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[24:23]
Jessica Lange
Finns.
[24:24]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Did you. Did you have, like, grandparents that were actually first generation?
[24:31]
Jessica Lange
All of mine.
[24:32]
Marc Maron
So they.
[24:33]
Jessica Lange
They had all immigrated, finished. On my mother's side. Both my grandparents had immigrated from Finland. On my father's side, from Germany and Holland.
[24:44]
Marc Maron
That's the people they brought in to do something with that land up there or something.
[24:48]
Jessica Lange
Well, I think. Yeah, there was. I think a lot of The Finns, for instance, up in that area, came for the mining, so they gave them.
[24:58]
Marc Maron
A good deal to go into the mine.
[25:00]
Jessica Lange
I don't think it was a good deal, but, yeah, it was.
[25:03]
Marc Maron
So you're growing up with people speaking Finnish.
[25:06]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[25:07]
Marc Maron
And eating Finnish food.
[25:08]
Jessica Lange
Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. But, you know, I mean, that generation that immigrated, I mean, there was a strong Finnish community in these small towns that I was living in, but, yeah. I never learned a word of Finnish.
[25:22]
Marc Maron
Right.
[25:22]
Jessica Lange
Because that was the private language.
[25:24]
Marc Maron
Right. That's when they wanted to talk about things. Yeah. With Jews, it was Yiddish. You know, my grandparents would always break into Yiddish to not let us know what they were planning for us.
[25:37]
Jessica Lange
Right, yeah.
[25:38]
Marc Maron
So you're in Spain and you're, like, living it.
[25:41]
Jessica Lange
I'm in Spain, 1818. And it's. Yeah, I mean, it's just. I mean, the world just kind of broke open.
[25:50]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Yeah.
[25:52]
Jessica Lange
And then we decided to. They wanted to do. They had this idea of doing another documentary film in Amsterdam. So we threw the motorcycles on top of the old Land Rover and drove from southern Spain, from Andalusia, all the way up to Paris.
[26:14]
Marc Maron
Wow.
[26:15]
Jessica Lange
And we rolled into Paris in May of 1968.
[26:19]
Marc Maron
Oh, my God.
[26:20]
Jessica Lange
When the city was just on fire. I mean, the students and the workers, everybody was like, you know, they were overthrowing de Gaulle's government.
[26:29]
Marc Maron
And did you, like, get involved?
[26:31]
Jessica Lange
Oh, you bet. Yeah.
[26:33]
Marc Maron
Where's the.
[26:33]
Jessica Lange
Every time there was a march going, I would be right there. I didn't even, you know, I mean, I didn't speak French or anything.
[26:39]
Marc Maron
But you knew what was going on.
[26:41]
Jessica Lange
Yeah. And I always came back smelling of tear gas.
[26:43]
Marc Maron
Really?
[26:44]
Jessica Lange
Because there was, you know, they had the riot police out in full riot gear, you know.
[26:51]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[26:51]
Jessica Lange
But the students were building fires, like, on the Boulevard St. Germain and pulling up the cobblestones.
[26:58]
Marc Maron
So it's funny, you have that history of Paris, and then I imagine over the years you've been there many times and you're just having a nice food in a nice place.
[27:07]
Jessica Lange
Well, I did move back to Paris because when I was there, I thought, ah, this is where I want to live.
[27:13]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Even not speaking French, you're like, this is.
[27:15]
Jessica Lange
I'm not speaking French. No. But I knew immediately that Paris was the place. And I ended up moving back there several different times to live for different reasons. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But so that was. Yeah. And then we went up from there. We went up to Amsterdam and lived there for a while.
[27:36]
Marc Maron
Oh, my God. In the late 60s.
[27:38]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[27:38]
Marc Maron
That must have been Crazy.
[27:39]
Jessica Lange
Yeah. And then I went back to.
[27:41]
Marc Maron
What was Amsterdam? Like just full of like, you know, weed and hippies.
[27:45]
Jessica Lange
Yeah, yeah. I mean there was. Yeah, there was some good hash and.
[27:52]
Marc Maron
You know, I mean that's a European thing.
[27:54]
Jessica Lange
Yeah, I mean it was, it was a. I have no idea. Do you know I've never been back to Amsterdam since 1968. So I have a feeling it's not what it was.
[28:06]
Marc Maron
Not for. It wasn't traumatizing. You're not avoiding it because you don't.
[28:10]
Jessica Lange
No, no, no. I just didn't have the opportunity to go back.
[28:14]
Marc Maron
I went there not too long ago. It's become very like these places, they get onto what their tourism is. So it's okay. It still kind of has a certain amount of charm, but it's a lot of tourist weed stuff and very. Yeah, I don't know. It's okay. Out of all those places I went when I was touring, I didn't love it.
[28:35]
Jessica Lange
Yeah. But every place has changed, hasn't it?
[28:38]
Marc Maron
I know.
[28:39]
Jessica Lange
And not for the better.
[28:40]
Marc Maron
It's gotten more. It's just gotten a little boring.
[28:43]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[28:44]
Marc Maron
In some way, I mean, like you're talking about energy in New York. I still feel energized when I go there for a few days, but after three days I'm like, I'm good. I was going to move there.
[28:56]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[28:56]
Marc Maron
I was going to get an apartment. And then like I had this realization the last time I went. I was like on day two of like a five day run and I got angry about something. Like somebody wouldn't give me a cup at a coffee shop for something. And I just felt, I realized like if I move here, I'm going to be one of these angry old men with a strand book bag and A2 plastic bag. Just walk, walking down the street, shouting at nothing.
[29:16]
Jessica Lange
Well, you do feel a lot of rage on the streets there.
[29:21]
Marc Maron
Yeah. I mean, but you know, that's because it's a lot of people.
[29:24]
Jessica Lange
Too many people.
[29:25]
Marc Maron
So where does it start in terms of like, where do you start doing you.
[29:31]
Jessica Lange
Well, let's see then coming back to live in New York after Amsterdam. And that's what we were talking about earlier, living on the Bowery.
[29:39]
Marc Maron
Were you chasing a guy?
[29:41]
Jessica Lange
Well, I was with a guy.
[29:42]
Marc Maron
Oh, from Minnesota.
[29:44]
Jessica Lange
Well, he was Spanish.
[29:45]
Marc Maron
Okay.
[29:46]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[29:46]
Marc Maron
So you got a Spanish guy.
[29:47]
Jessica Lange
Yeah, but I picked him up in Minnesota.
[29:52]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[29:53]
Jessica Lange
But anyhow. Yeah. So the whole group of photographers kind of went back to New York and I got involved with what we were just talking about like an Underground theater company. A dance company.
[30:09]
Marc Maron
You were dancing.
[30:10]
Jessica Lange
Yeah. And, I mean, that's really a loose description of what we were doing.
[30:16]
Marc Maron
You were expressing yourself physically.
[30:19]
Jessica Lange
Yes. That would be a good way to put it. Yeah.
[30:22]
Marc Maron
But it felt incredible.
[30:24]
Jessica Lange
Some kind of physical expression. Well, like I said, you know, it was like we just were making things up. What the hell? We were young and trying things out and being crazy.
[30:34]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[30:35]
Jessica Lange
I mean, it was.
[30:35]
Marc Maron
So how long did dancing last?
[30:37]
Jessica Lange
Well, then through the dancing, we got interested in mime, and there were some great old students who were still in New York who had studied with the, you know, the original company of Etienne Ducroux.
[30:57]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Who's the big mime guy? The French guy that's really famous.
[31:01]
Jessica Lange
Well, you're probably thinking of Marcel. Marcel, yeah.
[31:04]
Marc Maron
Right.
[31:04]
Jessica Lange
But this was very deeper.
[31:06]
Marc Maron
Deeper. This is a deep. This is the real deal.
[31:09]
Jessica Lange
This was Etienne Ducroux, who developed this technique with Jean Louis Barraud back in the 40s.
[31:15]
Marc Maron
And what was the foundation of that technique?
[31:17]
Jessica Lange
Well, he referred to it as mime concrete.
[31:20]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[31:20]
Jessica Lange
So it was like. But it was. It was a physical movement.
[31:24]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[31:25]
Jessica Lange
That was connected to. I mean, I don't even know how I would describe it.
[31:30]
Marc Maron
Right.
[31:31]
Jessica Lange
People wouldn't understand what I was saying.
[31:33]
Marc Maron
But the art of it.
[31:34]
Jessica Lange
The art of it was very particular and very precise.
[31:39]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Is it. Would you like. Is it kind of like clowning?
[31:43]
Jessica Lange
No.
[31:44]
Marc Maron
Okay. It's something deeper.
[31:46]
Jessica Lange
It's more abstract.
[31:48]
Marc Maron
Okay. Yeah. So the idea. So when you start. So you, like, locked in with this group.
[31:53]
Jessica Lange
I mean, what Decre would do would be to break down movement. You know, like a turn of the head would suddenly become a triple design.
[32:03]
Marc Maron
Oh, I see. I see.
[32:04]
Jessica Lange
So it was like.
[32:05]
Marc Maron
So that's interesting. That's kind of in forming a choice in terms of.
[32:09]
Jessica Lange
Yes. And emotional.
[32:10]
Marc Maron
Okay.
[32:11]
Jessica Lange
You know.
[32:11]
Marc Maron
Well, that's an interesting foundation, isn't it?
[32:13]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[32:13]
Marc Maron
Up the street, everyone's, like, doing Meisner technique and crying in front of Lee Strasberg. And you're doing mine.
[32:19]
Jessica Lange
I did that later. Yeah. But, yeah. So then I decided at that point, because Etienne Ducroux was an old man. He was in his 80s, but he was still teaching. So I moved back to Paris to study with him.
[32:39]
Marc Maron
Wow. You were serious about the mime.
[32:40]
Jessica Lange
Oh, yeah.
[32:41]
Marc Maron
Now, like, in your mind at that time, where did you think mime would take you?
[32:44]
Jessica Lange
Nowhere.
[32:48]
Marc Maron
At some point, you're like, there's no future in this mime realm.
[32:51]
Jessica Lange
No, absolutely zero. But it was a great discipline. I loved the crew. And, you know, to be in his presence and study with him every day. And to.
[33:03]
Marc Maron
That's great.
[33:03]
Jessica Lange
Be 19 years old and living in Paris on my own.
[33:06]
Marc Maron
So when did you get discovered? Because you were modeling, Right.
[33:10]
Jessica Lange
Well, that's a bit of a. Yeah, a sidetrack. I mean, it was. I never made a dime modeling. So if that qualifies as being a model, I'm not sure, but. No, I had. No. I had no success as a model. And I wasn't pursuing it with any kind of, you know.
[33:35]
Marc Maron
No, you were doing serious mime.
[33:37]
Jessica Lange
Well, but that was. Even. Mime was before the.
[33:41]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[33:43]
Jessica Lange
But anyhow, so the modeling thing came the third time I've moved back to Paris and met a whole group of. Another group of really fascinating people. This was kind of in the early 70s.
[33:57]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[33:58]
Jessica Lange
And somebody said to me, why don't you try modeling?
[34:04]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[34:04]
Jessica Lange
So when I moved back to New York, the next time I was working at the Lion's Head Tavern.
[34:12]
Marc Maron
Oh, yeah, yeah, I know where that is. Was that the one where.
[34:14]
Jessica Lange
Down on Christopher Street.
[34:15]
Marc Maron
Was that the one where Dylan Thomas used to hang out or something?
[34:18]
Jessica Lange
Well, that was the white horse.
[34:19]
Marc Maron
Oh, the white horse. Okay. A different animal.
[34:21]
Jessica Lange
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[34:21]
Marc Maron
So the lion's head.
[34:22]
Jessica Lange
No, but the Lion's head. And, I mean, there was. Yeah, we had a lot of writers.
[34:29]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[34:29]
Jessica Lange
A lot of. Yeah.
[34:31]
Marc Maron
So you'd gone back to New York to kind of get back into the art scene.
[34:35]
Jessica Lange
Well, I went back to New York because the modeling really. I mean, not the modeling. The mime was, you know, I mean. So I thought, well, what's the next step from here? And I thought, well, maybe acting classes.
[34:49]
Marc Maron
Right. So, okay, so you're at the Lion's Head. And which acting class do you do?
[34:55]
Jessica Lange
Well, when I first got back, I went to HB Studios, studied with Herbert Berghoff.
[35:02]
Marc Maron
That's a big one.
[35:03]
Jessica Lange
And then from there with Warren Robertson and from there with, like, offshoots of the Actors Studio.
[35:10]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[35:12]
Jessica Lange
So, you know, just covering.
[35:13]
Marc Maron
Yeah. All the bases.
[35:14]
Jessica Lange
All the bases there in New York at that time.
[35:17]
Marc Maron
But. So after the mime thing, you knew you wanted to act?
[35:20]
Jessica Lange
I didn't know I wanted to act, but, you know, again, it was one of those things where. Well, what do I do now?
[35:26]
Marc Maron
And what are your parents thinking back in Minnesota?
[35:29]
Jessica Lange
You know, I mean, they raised us so that we would just go wherever, explore.
[35:35]
Marc Maron
Oh, really?
[35:36]
Jessica Lange
Yeah. Be brave, do whatever you want. And I had one sister who was a sailor living on a sailboat somewhere out in the Pacific.
[35:43]
Marc Maron
Where'd she end up?
[35:44]
Jessica Lange
Well, you mean Now.
[35:47]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[35:47]
Jessica Lange
Well, she sailed from decades.
[35:50]
Marc Maron
Really?
[35:50]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[35:51]
Marc Maron
Did you go once?
[35:53]
Jessica Lange
I did, yeah.
[35:54]
Marc Maron
How was that? How are you on a. How are you?
[35:55]
Jessica Lange
I'm not. I'm not a great sailor.
[35:58]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[35:58]
Jessica Lange
I don't. You know. I didn't know.
[36:00]
Marc Maron
I get nauseous immediately.
[36:01]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[36:03]
Marc Maron
So when do you start? Like, when does it start to kind of gel that you can do the.
[36:08]
Jessica Lange
Acting thing in class, you know?
[36:10]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[36:12]
Jessica Lange
I remember one of the first scene. Because I was doing scene study classes, and one of the first scenes I worked on was from a play by Leroy Jones. Dutchman.
[36:24]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[36:25]
Jessica Lange
And it's the scene where she accuses this black man on. You know, and we're rehearsing. I'm in this illegal sublet on Barrow Street. Right on the street there.
[36:38]
Marc Maron
Like a storefront.
[36:39]
Jessica Lange
Well, close. Yeah. And, you know, we're rehearsing this scene, and pretty soon I hear sirens and cop cars and they're pounding on the door because they think I'm in distress, that I'm being like, you know, someone reported it.
[36:58]
Marc Maron
There's someone in trouble. Yeah.
[36:58]
Jessica Lange
Somebody heard it.
[36:59]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[37:00]
Jessica Lange
Thought so. I thought, oh, it works this way. Okay.
[37:05]
Marc Maron
I mean, I must be good at this.
[37:07]
Jessica Lange
It was horrifying, but. Yeah. But anyhow, so that was. I mean, I just. When I started the acting classes, it felt to me like everything just came together.
[37:18]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[37:19]
Jessica Lange
It fulfilled all sorts of things that I had been in the process of discovery.
[37:26]
Marc Maron
Sure. And, like, did you. Were you somebody who wanted to get out of yourself?
[37:34]
Jessica Lange
Yeah. Well, I had lived my life, I think, from the time I was a little girl.
[37:38]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[37:39]
Jessica Lange
In my imagination, I could actually. It felt like time travel or space travel, you know, I could. I could go so deep into make. Make believe.
[37:52]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Yeah.
[37:53]
Jessica Lange
That I could escape whatever was around me.
[37:57]
Marc Maron
Oh, yeah.
[37:57]
Jessica Lange
And I. You know, I think about that now because, I mean, you had to rely on your imagination then as a child, because what else were you going to do?
[38:09]
Marc Maron
You didn't have a phone, you didn't have an iPad.
[38:11]
Jessica Lange
You had none of that stuff.
[38:12]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Yeah.
[38:13]
Jessica Lange
So you entertained yourself.
[38:14]
Marc Maron
Sure.
[38:15]
Jessica Lange
You made up games, you made up fantasies. You fulfilled these. I mean, I remember one time writing a letter to myself from Clark Gable, a love letter, you know, so I was like 7 years old.
[38:33]
Marc Maron
But you liked Clark Gable.
[38:34]
Jessica Lange
Well, I'd seen pictures of him, and I probably watched some old movie of his on tv, you know, black and white tv.
[38:42]
Marc Maron
Were your folks involved in the art?
[38:45]
Jessica Lange
No.
[38:46]
Marc Maron
And, like, how many sisters? How many siblings?
[38:48]
Jessica Lange
I've got three. Two sisters and a younger brother.
[38:51]
Marc Maron
Wow. So there's four of you in the house and you're out. You're just in your room imagining. Imagining things.
[38:57]
Jessica Lange
Yeah. Or in the yard, making up, you know, make believe stuff, whatever.
[39:01]
Marc Maron
But the household was good. You weren't avoiding chaos?
[39:05]
Jessica Lange
I was avoiding chaos a lot of the time. Yeah.
[39:10]
Marc Maron
I find that's when the imagination comes in handy.
[39:13]
Jessica Lange
It really works, I'm telling you. Like I said, it's like for a lifetime, time travel, you can like just.
[39:20]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah. I don't know, like sometimes, you know, wherever the creativity comes from, if it's raw and real, it's generally not a great place.
[39:30]
Jessica Lange
Yeah, yeah. Not from a place of calm and peace. No, never that.
[39:39]
Marc Maron
Oh, my God. Cause like this morning, I'm trying to make decisions for myself around, you know, acting and comedy and just life. And somehow or another yesterday, I'm like, I'm just gonna try to do things I don't dread.
[39:51]
Jessica Lange
There you go, right there. That's.
[39:54]
Marc Maron
I think that's huge.
[39:56]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[39:57]
Marc Maron
You know, but, you know, I find that, like, even things I want to do, there's a certain amount of dread involved. But what are you gonna do?
[40:02]
Jessica Lange
I know it.
[40:03]
Marc Maron
Yeah. So when do you start to get noticed?
[40:08]
Jessica Lange
Well, okay. So then, yeah, I was working at the Lions.
[40:13]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[40:14]
Jessica Lange
And taking acting classes. Living in the West Village.
[40:19]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[40:20]
Jessica Lange
And somebody said to me, again, why don't you try modeling? And I thought, well, okay. Yeah. I mean, so I met with this agency and, you know, they didn't take me on as like a client or whatever you call them, as a model. But she knew that I was studying acting. And at some point, I would imagine a lot of the agencies or whatever got a call from Dino De Laurentiis.
[40:57]
Marc Maron
Oh, yeah.
[40:59]
Jessica Lange
About castings for the new King Kong.
[41:02]
Marc Maron
I don't have any sense of Dina De Laurentiis other than John Belushi's impression of him.
[41:07]
Jessica Lange
I've never seen it.
[41:08]
Marc Maron
That's great. My Kong will be the best Kong. It's very fun.
[41:15]
Jessica Lange
But anyhow, so that's when she got that call. She called me. I don't even know how she called me. I didn't have a phone, but asked if I wanted to go audition for Dino De Laurentiis. Yeah.
[41:30]
Marc Maron
What was that guy like?
[41:32]
Jessica Lange
Well, he was kind of what you would imagine, you know, he was a showman and. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[41:39]
Marc Maron
And that was like. I remember that movie.
[41:42]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[41:43]
Marc Maron
I remember you in that hand.
[41:44]
Jessica Lange
Right. Spent a lot of time in that hand. Yeah. There were all sorts of problems with it, with the hand. Well, it was mechanical, you know. I mean, it was kind of a genius thing. I mean, this was before CGI and digital and AI and all this other bullshit. This was just practical working, hydraulic hand.
[42:06]
Marc Maron
Right, Right.
[42:06]
Jessica Lange
It could have probably killed me at any moment.
[42:09]
Marc Maron
Just snapshot.
[42:10]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[42:11]
Marc Maron
But a lot of actresses are up for this part, I think. Like, I read that, like, it was sort of a big part, you know. I mean, it was.
[42:18]
Jessica Lange
Yeah, it was big. I mean, and. But I knew nothing about it. I mean, I knew nothing about anything of the process.
[42:24]
Marc Maron
Right.
[42:25]
Jessica Lange
So.
[42:25]
Marc Maron
And they offered you the role and.
[42:26]
Jessica Lange
You'Re like, well, you know, they flew me out to la. I was living in, like I said, an illegal subway on Barrow Street.
[42:35]
Marc Maron
Right.
[42:36]
Jessica Lange
Often didn't have money for, like, you know, the subway. My only income was waitressing at the Lion's Head. And suddenly they're saying to me, we'd like to fly you to Los Angeles, you know, to audition for this part. And I thought, what the fuck, man? I'm going, sounds like. Plus, I can see my sister's. Who. My sister who's on a sailboat down in San Diego. So I thought, yeah, I'll do this, and who cares what happens with it?
[43:06]
Marc Maron
Sure.
[43:06]
Jessica Lange
And, you know, they flew me out, put me up at the Beverly Wilshire and drove me to mgm.
[43:17]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[43:17]
Jessica Lange
I mean, my favorite studio as a little girl growing up.
[43:21]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[43:23]
Jessica Lange
Came into the lot of mgm. It was like a fantasy come true.
[43:27]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[43:28]
Jessica Lange
And, yeah, I did this audition and they took one look at me. I'd just come back from Paris, you know, I was like 114 pounds. I had, like, kind of this blonde, you know, blonde Venus look. And they looked at me and they.
[43:45]
Marc Maron
No, no.
[43:47]
Jessica Lange
So the agent in New York said, come on, you flew her all the way out there. Just roll some film on her. Just do it.
[43:56]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[43:57]
Jessica Lange
So I went in. Now, that was. Unbeknownst to me, that was the modeling agent. Yeah.
[44:03]
Marc Maron
Wow.
[44:04]
Jessica Lange
Yeah. She actually kind of, you know, just do it.
[44:07]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[44:09]
Jessica Lange
And I walked onto this sound stage and nobody was there. I mean, you know, skeleton crew. And they gave me the scenes to play. I think I was just reading with some second AD or something. There wasn't the director. Nobody was interested in just watching me.
[44:34]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[44:35]
Jessica Lange
And I did it. And then they. They said, well, just, you know, wait a while. Yeah, we'll do it again.
[44:42]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[44:43]
Jessica Lange
Then somebody else came, and then they asked me would I do it again. And then I noticed that the director finally showed up.
[44:50]
Marc Maron
Yeah, who was that? I can't remember.
[44:51]
Jessica Lange
John Gillerman.
[44:52]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[44:52]
Jessica Lange
English. And then I did it for him a couple times. And then, you know, the next thing I know, Dino De Laurentiis shows up.
[45:01]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[45:02]
Jessica Lange
So, you know, and I'm just doing this. The scenes are kind of, I don't know, silly. Silly. I think.
[45:09]
Marc Maron
But, yeah.
[45:12]
Jessica Lange
And, yeah, I finished and I left, and by the time I got back home, they called and offered me the part.
[45:24]
Marc Maron
Yeah. So that's it.
[45:27]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[45:27]
Marc Maron
And then you gotta go to.
[45:28]
Jessica Lange
And then I had to do it.
[45:29]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Damn.
[45:33]
Jessica Lange
This was not. This was not the break I had ever anticipated, as, you know, I thought, oh, I'm a New York actor. I'll do, like, theater, you know, we'll do showcase, you know, try to find an agent or, you know, manager or something. Then off off Broadway, maybe some underground theater, maybe, you know, someday do an off Broadway play, maybe at the Public or, you know, that's how I imagine the trajectory.
[46:01]
Marc Maron
Yeah. But no, you're going to be.
[46:02]
Jessica Lange
But no, I'm going to be in the most expensive film made up until that point with, like, a big mechanical hand.
[46:10]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[46:11]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[46:11]
Marc Maron
But was the movie a success? Yeah, yeah. And it brought you attention. But I guess from what I. The bit I read, that despite the trappings of that particular movie and whatever anybody thought acting was, Pauline Kael, what.
[46:27]
Jessica Lange
Championed you, she did, God bless her. I mean, it was like. Yeah. She went out there.
[46:33]
Marc Maron
Yeah. And throughout your career, it seems that she was a big supporter.
[46:38]
Jessica Lange
Yes.
[46:38]
Marc Maron
And that meant something then.
[46:40]
Jessica Lange
Oh, yeah.
[46:41]
Marc Maron
Kind of got you in, I bet.
[46:43]
Jessica Lange
I don't know. I mean, I'm sure it made a difference, but. But, you know, after Kong, then I didn't work for three years. Nobody took me seriously.
[46:51]
Marc Maron
Oh, really?
[46:52]
Jessica Lange
Oh, yeah.
[46:52]
Marc Maron
What were you doing for three years?
[46:54]
Jessica Lange
I went back to live in New York and back to the Lion's Head? No, I didn't do that, but I did go back to New York and take more acting classes.
[47:04]
Marc Maron
Okay. Yeah. And is that when you met Fosse?
[47:07]
Jessica Lange
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
[47:09]
Marc Maron
How was that guy?
[47:11]
Jessica Lange
He was great. Yeah, he was great. He was. I mean, you know, I mean, he just had that boundless kind of energy and love of what he was doing.
[47:27]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[47:27]
Jessica Lange
You know, I mean, bordering on, I guess, you know, Insanity. Yeah.
[47:32]
Marc Maron
Did you see Rockwell play him in that movie?
[47:36]
Jessica Lange
You know, I didn't watch it.
[47:37]
Marc Maron
You didn't want to. We're going to hold your memory.
[47:40]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[47:41]
Marc Maron
To yourself?
[47:42]
Jessica Lange
Yeah. I mean, what. I don't. Well, yeah, I mean, I guess, you know, these stories are interesting and should be told, but I don't leave them alone.
[47:56]
Marc Maron
Well, right, right, right. Why dig them up?
[47:58]
Jessica Lange
Why?
[47:58]
Marc Maron
Yeah, just look at what they did.
[48:00]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[48:00]
Marc Maron
But I think with somebody like him, because so much of it was. Was ephemeral in that, you know, once the dance was done. The dance was done.
[48:07]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[48:08]
Marc Maron
So I think for somebody like him to give him a good, you know, going over as an artist was, you know, I think it's okay.
[48:15]
Jessica Lange
Yeah, no, I'm sure it was. I just never.
[48:19]
Marc Maron
Because I don't know, like, for me, like, you know, I've seen dances done that he had originally choreographed, you know, and those sort of live on in style. But, like, it wasn't until. And I saw all that jazz when I was a kid, and you just sort of, like, once you start to realize, like, this is based on a real guy and the real guy's directing.
[48:38]
Jessica Lange
This movie about himself.
[48:39]
Marc Maron
About himself. It was like, this guy. Because I remember, like, just because I remember. I don't remember what time. When did it come out? 79. So I'm still in high school, and I'm kind of a creative kid, and I just watch those scenes of him, you know, in the shower with a cigarette hanging out of his mouth or taking his. His Dexadrine or whatever it was. And I'm like, that's what I want to do. I don't even know what the art is, but I'd like to take a shower with a cigarette.
[49:05]
Jessica Lange
And I'd note, yeah, it's showtime.
[49:09]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Did he do that?
[49:12]
Jessica Lange
You know, I mean, I knew Fosse pretty well. I mean, it was. Yeah, he was a wild man.
[49:20]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Yeah. And Scheider did a good job.
[49:23]
Jessica Lange
I thought Scheider did a great underrated actor. Yeah.
[49:26]
Marc Maron
So good. Yeah, he's always so good. And you were like. You were this, like, the most beautiful death apparition that ever existed to Fosse.
[49:35]
Jessica Lange
That his idea of death would be a beautiful woman waiting for him. Right. Like this kind of angelic. Well, that's her name in it.
[49:43]
Marc Maron
Yeah. It's kind of an amazing scene. That whole, like, when Ben Vereen shows up, it's like, oh, it's the best.
[49:49]
Jessica Lange
Yeah. And, you know, it's a great film.
[49:51]
Marc Maron
I love it. Yeah, I like his movies.
[49:53]
Jessica Lange
Yeah, everybody's good in it.
[49:55]
Marc Maron
Oh, my God.
[49:56]
Jessica Lange
Across the board.
[49:57]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Yeah, it was. It was good. And what you could glean from his personal life was also. Who was that? That woman who played the girlfriend? The tall woman? She was great.
[50:04]
Jessica Lange
Ann Reinking.
[50:05]
Marc Maron
Oh, my God, she was great.
[50:07]
Jessica Lange
Yeah, she was. She was his you know, his main muse.
[50:11]
Marc Maron
Oh, yeah. At the time.
[50:12]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[50:13]
Marc Maron
Now, did you ever do any more serious dancing after, like, spending time with that guy, or did you do on the dance? No, no. No more dancing.
[50:22]
Jessica Lange
No disco dancing. That was the extent of it.
[50:26]
Marc Maron
But, like. But then you just sort of go. That's when you start working. Right. I mean.
[50:30]
Jessica Lange
Well, I did that film for Bobby. All that jazz.
[50:34]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[50:35]
Jessica Lange
And I mean, I thank him for that because, you know, we were good friends. And, you know, I think he. I mean, he really fought to get that done because they were over schedule, over budget, and we hadn't started shooting that section yet. He just was a bulldog about it. He was gonna shoot that. They wanted to shut him down. And. Yeah.
[50:58]
Marc Maron
I love hearing those stories. Cause those are another reason why I like talking about the history is because there were times where directors made stands against studios for their vision.
[51:09]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[51:09]
Marc Maron
That wasn't driven by economics.
[51:12]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[51:12]
Marc Maron
It was driven by creativity. And they'd hold the line.
[51:16]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[51:16]
Marc Maron
And they'd do it. Like, Coppola was like that. And, like, talking to Pacino. He was like. He didn't like the way a scene went. He would just be like, well, I'm not doing it anymore.
[51:24]
Jessica Lange
Yeah. Yeah. Right.
[51:27]
Marc Maron
And they do it.
[51:28]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[51:29]
Marc Maron
It's a different time. Right.
[51:30]
Jessica Lange
It's a different time. It's too bad. I mean, because I think something. Something that made film extremely thrilling and fascinating to observe. I mean, that all seems to me to have been lost.
[51:46]
Marc Maron
Yeah. I don't know. Some indies are kind of interesting. You know, they can see.
[51:49]
Jessica Lange
Some European films are still interesting. Yeah.
[51:52]
Marc Maron
Yeah. I'm doing a movie right now which is like. I watched the HBO movie.
[51:57]
Jessica Lange
Oh, the Great Lillian Hall.
[51:59]
Marc Maron
I watched that. Cause I'm playing a guy who. Who's playing an actor. And I don't have the confidence, obviously, that you have. Like, I don't think I'm that great an actor, and I gotta play a guy who's a good actor. So it's. This is, like, very daunting to me. All I was. All I care about is, like, it's a comedy. It's a dark comedy. Yeah. I think you'd kind of. The premise of it is kind of hilarious.
[52:18]
Jessica Lange
What is the premise? Or can't you talk about it?
[52:21]
Marc Maron
I can talk about it. It's about a guy, you know, who was. He started as a serious actor, you know, back in the day, you know, did Shakespeare and everything was discovered in his early 20s. Got a movie career, did a few movies with this movie star who he Ends up marrying, takes her from another guy, and their fourth movie bombs, and she leaves him. And this is all backstory. And then he kind of, like, he's still in the game a bit, but he ends up taking a sitcom for five years, and that's what he's known for. And now he's 60 something, my age. And at the beginning of the movie, he gets diagnosed with stage 4 colon cancer or bowel cancer.
[52:56]
Jessica Lange
Wow.
[52:57]
Marc Maron
And he becomes obsessed with the need.
[52:58]
Jessica Lange
This is a comedy.
[52:59]
Marc Maron
Well, wait, here comes the funny part. He becomes obsessed with the need to be in the In Memoriam montage at the Oscars. So he's not.
[53:06]
Jessica Lange
Oh, oh.
[53:08]
Marc Maron
So he's not going to do chemo. And he doesn't know if he can get in because his film works so far behind. Oh. And everyone knows him as this, like, ridiculous TV actor. So now he's got to figure out an angle.
[53:17]
Jessica Lange
Right. To get in the. That.
[53:24]
Marc Maron
So that's the comedy.
[53:26]
Jessica Lange
Yeah, yeah, I get it.
[53:27]
Marc Maron
And it's very. It's been very interesting, and it's a very challenging thing for me. And I figure, like, well, if I'm gonna do this, I better figure it out. Yeah, but watching that film that you just did, I mean that. Those are the layers of it. You're an actor playing a great. When. Well, you are a great actress. But so. But the two different worlds of the artist and the work is kind of. It's an interesting place to do it.
[53:53]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[53:53]
Marc Maron
Now, here's another question. Kathy Bates and you are great together, and she's great. And as I recall, like, I think both of you at some point were gonna quit, right?
[54:02]
Jessica Lange
Oh, I've been quitting for about 25 years, I think, so it's imminent, but there's always something will come up and.
[54:12]
Marc Maron
Yeah, well, you did all that American Horror Story, too.
[54:15]
Jessica Lange
Yeah, I did four seasons. The first four seasons of that.
[54:19]
Marc Maron
People loved that show.
[54:21]
Jessica Lange
You know, I haven't seen it.
[54:22]
Marc Maron
I mean, you don't watch your stuff.
[54:24]
Jessica Lange
No, and I have ever. I think I've watched Tootsie because that's an easy one to watch, you know.
[54:38]
Marc Maron
Well, what is the aversion? Because I know other actors like that, too. A lot of people I work with, like, I worked with Owen Wilson and Thing, and it's like they don't watch anything. So is it that satisfying to do the job that you don't want to see how it's put together or the work you did?
[54:54]
Jessica Lange
Well, now, sometimes there are different things. Sometimes you do a film for the wrong Reason? Yeah, you know, you.
[55:02]
Marc Maron
What reasons are those? Well, money.
[55:04]
Jessica Lange
Well, I've never been paid for anything, so it's kind of like I can't say I've done anything. Yeah. Basically, I've ever done anything for, like, big bucks or the paycheck that's never materialized. But, you know, you say yes to something because you haven't worked for two years, and you think, man, I've got to, you know, get out there. Yeah. I mean, I'm an actor. I should do this. And so you. Or then there's the others. You know, the other reason where you look at a script and you say, but I think I can do something with it.
[55:40]
Marc Maron
Okay. Yeah.
[55:41]
Jessica Lange
That's always a big mistake if it's not on the page. And, you know, it's like, I think I can make something of this. No, you can't. It's like, nah, it's not going to. It's not going to pan out.
[55:53]
Marc Maron
But looking back on it, like, I mean, it's not like you. You did a lot of movies and you won a couple of Oscars, so it's hard for me to know which of those movies you'd be referring to where you, like, thought you could do something. And, you know, it wasn't on the page, but, like, I would imagine some of these were a pretty good experience. I don't know what Raphaelson was like at that time. That was great with Postman and Jack Nick. What a great remake.
[56:17]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[56:18]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[56:18]
Jessica Lange
I mean. Yeah. I mean, that was. That was. That was. That came right after all that Jazz. So that was, like, my third movie.
[56:27]
Marc Maron
Yeah. And was it because of all that jazz or because, like, I know Raphelson is friends with Nicholson, so how'd they come find you?
[56:34]
Jessica Lange
I don't know, but they did.
[56:36]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[56:36]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[56:37]
Marc Maron
Was that pretty exciting?
[56:38]
Jessica Lange
It was thrilling.
[56:39]
Marc Maron
He's gotta be something to work for. Worth it.
[56:41]
Jessica Lange
Raphelson or Nicholson?
[56:43]
Marc Maron
Both of them.
[56:43]
Jessica Lange
Both of them were. They were crazy. It was great. It was great. It was fun. It was exciting. It was. Yeah. It was a total kind of experience. I mean, I loved it. I love both of them.
[57:01]
Marc Maron
Do you think that when you took Frances, that. That was the first, like, you know, profoundly challenging.
[57:07]
Jessica Lange
Yeah. Role. Yeah. And the way Francis came to me was Graham Clifford, who was the editor on Postman.
[57:15]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[57:16]
Jessica Lange
When he saw, like, you know, I mean, he's watching hundreds of hours of footage of you. Yeah.
[57:24]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[57:24]
Jessica Lange
He. He immediately thought of me for Francis.
[57:29]
Marc Maron
Yeah. And that's heavy business. And then, I mean, you've done a Few movies that are pretty heavy business.
[57:38]
Jessica Lange
Yeah, I like those. Yeah, I like those. It gives you something to do.
[57:43]
Marc Maron
Right. But were you confident in your ability heading into that movie? And I only know this from my limited experience of acting. You know, you read a script like that, you're like, well, I'm gonna have to go deep and get into this place that's gonna be, you know, disturbing.
[58:01]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[58:02]
Marc Maron
But that's part of the challenge, right?
[58:04]
Jessica Lange
Yeah. That's what makes it thrilling.
[58:06]
Marc Maron
Yeah. And was it?
[58:08]
Jessica Lange
Yes.
[58:09]
Marc Maron
Oh, my God.
[58:10]
Jessica Lange
Yeah. Everything about that. I mean, I loved her. I loved Frances. I loved her spirit and, you know, and, I mean, the tragedy of what happened to her.
[58:25]
Marc Maron
Well, just even the idea, I imagine, when you read that, that this was a practical form of treatment for people with a certain psychological disposition, that you would just lobotomize them.
[58:33]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[58:33]
Marc Maron
I mean, when you really think about it, it's crazy. I mean, like, shock therapy is one thing. Somehow or another, they're doing that again. But not in as painful a way, but, like, lobotomy.
[58:44]
Jessica Lange
That's pretty, like. Yeah, that's pretty. Absolutely.
[58:46]
Marc Maron
Yeah. There's no coming back from that. And they treated. I don't know if it was predominantly women with that.
[58:54]
Jessica Lange
Probably.
[58:54]
Marc Maron
Right. The hysterical or whatever.
[58:57]
Jessica Lange
Right.
[58:58]
Marc Maron
So just the idea of that part of history and, you know, in terms of time travel, that must have been, like, disturbing.
[59:06]
Jessica Lange
Yeah. And the doctor who performed it on Francis was actually the foremost proponent of lobotomizing. Yeah.
[59:15]
Marc Maron
Oh, my God.
[59:16]
Jessica Lange
Yeah. I mean, in the scene that we played, it was based on what really happened. He's, you know, he's actually, like, giving a demonstration to a medical class. Right.
[59:29]
Marc Maron
This is how you stop the woman from feeling.
[59:32]
Jessica Lange
Yeah, yeah.
[59:33]
Marc Maron
Yeah. And once you got to those places, like, in terms of being an actor, were you like, well, there's a resource that I can draw from now forever until it exhausts me.
[59:45]
Jessica Lange
Yeah. No, I mean, I hate to admit it, but I'm always drawn to, like, the darkest part of a character because it. Or the madness in a character because it allows you so much room to just experience and experiment and, like, I mean, places to go.
[60:10]
Marc Maron
Well, you gotta be willing. I mean, that was an interesting thing, like, because you had done enough, I think, work and your spirit was of a certain sort, but the vulnerability of madness is still vulnerability.
[60:22]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[60:23]
Marc Maron
Right.
[60:23]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[60:23]
Marc Maron
And, you know, you gotta put yourself out there in a very kind of raw and disturbing way.
[60:28]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[60:28]
Marc Maron
And you just gotta be willing.
[60:30]
Jessica Lange
Yeah. And go to really dark places.
[60:33]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Well, do you feel like that perhaps you Were or still are? Well, I would think you probably got most of them out. I mean. And how many demons did you have to exorcise?
[60:43]
Jessica Lange
Well, there were quite a few. Yeah. I mean, certainly enough, you know, carried me through several different characters.
[60:52]
Marc Maron
Blue Sky's another one.
[60:53]
Jessica Lange
Yeah, Blue sky is another one. Blanche dubois is a classic one.
[60:57]
Marc Maron
And you did that a lot, right?
[60:59]
Jessica Lange
Yeah, I did that three different times.
[61:01]
Marc Maron
And so when you get like, okay, so after you do Blanche dubois once. Yeah, yeah. And then you're like, we want to do it again, do you think, like. Well, I think I can get something deeper, More.
[61:15]
Jessica Lange
Yeah. I mean, I just want, you know, also, because, I mean, with, like, Williams, you know, he's giving you this template, this kind of map, this road map.
[61:31]
Marc Maron
Right.
[61:31]
Jessica Lange
And it's so rich.
[61:34]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[61:34]
Jessica Lange
That. I mean, it's the same thing with. Now I've done Mary Tyrone from Long Day's Journey into Night. Oh, my God, three times.
[61:41]
Marc Maron
That's gonna. When's that coming out? Didn't you guys record it?
[61:44]
Jessica Lange
Yeah, we did. We filmed it. But, you know, that's like post production hell. I have no idea what's. How soon that'll come out. But you as an actor, you feel like, okay, I've done this once, I've done this another time, I've done this another. And yet it's a bottomless well, that character, that part, there's no way you could ever exhaust it. So that in itself is fascinating because.
[62:11]
Marc Maron
Once you get into that zone, it's almost. It's unpredictable.
[62:13]
Jessica Lange
Yeah. And it's endless. The possibilities, you know, just like one little sidetrack here and it takes you down a whole different place you've never been before. And it's like. I mean, it's.
[62:26]
Marc Maron
It's an amazing thing about chaos and darkness.
[62:28]
Jessica Lange
Yeah. But also about brilliant writing.
[62:31]
Marc Maron
Right. So those are the guardrails, in a way.
[62:34]
Jessica Lange
Yeah. Because you have somebody like O'Neill who's writing about his mother, or you have Williams who's writing about his sister. I mean, so you're grounded in this, like the most personal kind of truth and what they've gone through to write this, you know, is. And therefore it's like. It is endless.
[62:59]
Marc Maron
Right.
[63:00]
Jessica Lange
It's like a bottomless well.
[63:02]
Marc Maron
And it's a. Like it's a human constant. Like, it's like almost like a truth.
[63:07]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[63:08]
Marc Maron
So. Well, that's. That's interesting because it really has to do with the writing ultimately. And those are trustable people. Tennessee Williams.
[63:17]
Jessica Lange
Those are two good ones. You can usually relax on them.
[63:23]
Marc Maron
You're not going to be like, no, no, no. About this line.
[63:25]
Jessica Lange
Yeah. I don't know.
[63:27]
Marc Maron
What was O'Neill thinking?
[63:28]
Jessica Lange
It just doesn't really work, I don't think.
[63:32]
Marc Maron
Well, that's. I guess that's the journey. And I think I learned that more specifically with Pacino that, you know, you talk to that guy, there's this idea that like he didn't get into it for money or celebrity. This was. It becomes a pursuit of truth.
[63:47]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[63:47]
Marc Maron
Which is really kind of amazing.
[63:49]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[63:49]
Marc Maron
That any little like. And then I talked to another guy and I'm always gleaning stuff from actress guy knew. What was name Robert Patrick, you know, who was in the Terminator movies. He was like, look, you just have to look at each scene as a one act play. That was very helpful.
[64:05]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[64:05]
Marc Maron
Like each scene has got an arc in there.
[64:07]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[64:07]
Marc Maron
So like, you know, if you're breaking them down, you're doing film work. It's kind of helpful. But ultimately you're servicing. What is the truth of the scene? What is the truth of the story? Right.
[64:15]
Jessica Lange
Well, I know when I was working with Kim Stanley, I mean, the.
[64:18]
Marc Maron
Oh my God, she's the best.
[64:19]
Jessica Lange
She's the best. The brilliant Kim Stanley, she's the best.
[64:22]
Marc Maron
No one knows enough about her.
[64:24]
Jessica Lange
No, I know it. Why can't. Why is that?
[64:26]
Marc Maron
I don't know.
[64:27]
Jessica Lange
People should be studying. I mean, I did this many, many times before I would start a film. I would watch the Goddess.
[64:35]
Marc Maron
Oh my God.
[64:36]
Jessica Lange
And I would like just. Okay. Because it would inspire me. This was what. Great acting wise.
[64:42]
Marc Maron
Totally.
[64:43]
Jessica Lange
And. But I had the opportunity to work with her twice actually. But the first time was on Frances where she played my mother who was also, I mean.
[64:53]
Marc Maron
Oh, I gotta watch it again.
[64:54]
Jessica Lange
Responsible for the insanity and putting Frances away.
[64:59]
Marc Maron
Right, right, right.
[65:00]
Jessica Lange
Yeah. But yeah, working with her, it was just. I mean, and we were coming from the same place and we had spent weeks doing just improv work together with like a moderator, somebody from the actor's studio, this great coach, Sandra Seacat. And she would just set these things in motion and Kim and I would do improvs for hours and hours and days and days and.
[65:29]
Marc Maron
Really?
[65:30]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[65:30]
Marc Maron
You had that kind of time then?
[65:31]
Jessica Lange
Yeah, yeah, we had rehearsal time.
[65:34]
Marc Maron
Yeah. That doesn't exist anymore.
[65:36]
Jessica Lange
No, I guess it doesn't. No.
[65:38]
Marc Maron
Oh.
[65:38]
Jessica Lange
So. But you know, watching somebody like. Yeah, people should study her.
[65:43]
Marc Maron
Well, yeah, there was a moment there, I think, where she was considered the female Brando and then she, the goddess, which is like, it's Pre those kind of movies, it's a little before. It's got to be. What Was that, the 50s?
[65:55]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[65:55]
Marc Maron
That's an insane performance.
[65:58]
Jessica Lange
Yeah, it is.
[65:59]
Marc Maron
It's, like, breathtaking on every, like, the depth. Because you're watching. I think that was like a Chayefsky script or something.
[66:05]
Jessica Lange
Yeah, it was Paddy Chayefsky.
[66:06]
Marc Maron
And you're watching it and, like, I'd never seen it before. I was on Criterion. This is like, in the last couple years. And I'm like, oh, this sounds like an interesting story. And like, you know, within a half hour, I'm like, what the fuck is this? Who is this person?
[66:17]
Jessica Lange
I know.
[66:18]
Marc Maron
How is this? Does not everybody know about it?
[66:20]
Jessica Lange
I know it.
[66:21]
Marc Maron
And we all know about Shelly Winters. Yeah, but what about this woman?
[66:24]
Jessica Lange
Yeah, but.
[66:25]
Marc Maron
But I think she had a difficult life.
[66:28]
Jessica Lange
She had a very difficult time.
[66:29]
Marc Maron
Right?
[66:30]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[66:30]
Marc Maron
And I think that, you know, sometimes gets in the way.
[66:33]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[66:34]
Marc Maron
So. So you must have been relieved to do Tootsie.
[66:38]
Jessica Lange
Well, this is interesting because, you know, we were shooting Frances.
[66:43]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[66:44]
Jessica Lange
And Dustin and Sydney Pollock.
[66:48]
Marc Maron
Right.
[66:48]
Jessica Lange
Kept approaching me about this part in Tootsie.
[66:51]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[66:52]
Jessica Lange
And I thought, oh, my God, I am not going to go from France playing Frances Farmer to, like, this, you know, cute actress. Yeah. This cute little, you know, daytime soap opera actress. And. But Kim was the one who said to me, do a comedy next.
[67:12]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you got. So they talked to it.
[67:15]
Jessica Lange
Yeah, they talked me into it and I just did it. It was great. I was glad to do it.
[67:20]
Marc Maron
Lighten up a little bit.
[67:21]
Jessica Lange
Yeah, yeah. Have some fun.
[67:25]
Marc Maron
Was Dustin fun?
[67:26]
Jessica Lange
Yeah, he was great to work with. I loved him. Yeah, I loved Sydney, too. Sydney was one of the best directors I've ever been around.
[67:34]
Marc Maron
He's another one like that, like, doesn't get his due. And maybe I'm just deciding that as a director, but as an actor.
[67:40]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[67:40]
Marc Maron
Oh, my God.
[67:40]
Jessica Lange
Oh, no. As an actor. I know it.
[67:42]
Marc Maron
I love him.
[67:43]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[67:43]
Marc Maron
Anytime he's on screen, I'm like, oh, I know. That's the guy.
[67:46]
Jessica Lange
Yeah. That scene in the Russian Tea Room. It's great.
[67:48]
Marc Maron
Oh, it's great. It's great. Or in Michael Clayton or like, even that weird movie he did with Ben Affleck, that Changing Lanes movie. He's great. He's always good at a guy who's got a compromised moral code.
[67:59]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[68:03]
Marc Maron
So. But obviously, you can't go through every movie but Blue Sky. I just watched that again. You know, I'm actually about halfway through it and, like, right out of the gate it's just.
[68:13]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[68:14]
Marc Maron
It's like that. That's a relatable person.
[68:16]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[68:17]
Marc Maron
And then Tommy Lee Jones. Like, what a guy. I mean, just the guy. He's like, you know, just kind of. All right, this is what it is. And I love her. And we're gonna do this.
[68:27]
Jessica Lange
Yeah, yeah. Tommy Lee was. I'm. He's one of my favorite actors I've worked with. Yeah.
[68:36]
Marc Maron
Why? Because of how grounded he is.
[68:39]
Jessica Lange
You know, just because he's. Yeah. I mean, he's so present and so. I mean, complete and everything. Every choice he makes is. I mean, it's fascinating.
[68:53]
Marc Maron
Yeah, it is.
[68:53]
Jessica Lange
And he's great to work with, you know, across from.
[68:57]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Engage with. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because he's, like, solid in terms of all his roles. A lot of them. There's not one where he doesn't know what he's doing.
[69:07]
Jessica Lange
No, no. He's brilliant.
[69:10]
Marc Maron
You always get the sense that he's in control there. It's funny, I saw Wim Bender's Talk. Cause I rewatched Paris, Texas, and I'd seen it when I was a kid when it came out, and I thought I knew everything. And then I watched a movie recently, and I'm like, I had no idea what this was about. But I remember him talking about, like, him working with Shepard, and there was sort of this issue. It's like. Well, we didn't know where he was. He was running around with Jessica Lang somewhere, and we were trying to make this movie.
[69:42]
Jessica Lange
Yeah. We had just. I think. Yeah. That film was being made about the time we ran off together and. Yeah. We weren't really reachable for a long time.
[69:54]
Marc Maron
You're somewhere with horses.
[69:56]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[69:59]
Marc Maron
Well, that guy was like, a genius.
[70:01]
Jessica Lange
He was.
[70:02]
Marc Maron
Yeah. You were them a long time.
[70:05]
Jessica Lange
30 years.
[70:06]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[70:06]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[70:07]
Marc Maron
And what was it? Did you. When he was workshopping stuff, did you do his stuff? Would you keep it separate?
[70:15]
Jessica Lange
Yeah. I mean, the couple times that we talked about, you know, or me doing, like, you know, a play of his or something, or an adaptation, I was pregnant. So, you know, that didn't turn out right. We did. We did a film together.
[70:36]
Marc Maron
Was that country?
[70:37]
Jessica Lange
That was. Well, that's where you met, acting together.
[70:40]
Marc Maron
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[70:41]
Jessica Lange
No, we met on Francis.
[70:42]
Marc Maron
Oh, right. Okay. Wow.
[70:44]
Jessica Lange
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Frances was huge in my life. Yeah, yeah.
[70:50]
Marc Maron
For everything.
[70:50]
Jessica Lange
For everything.
[70:51]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[70:51]
Jessica Lange
Yeah. No, we did a film that he wrote and directed called Far North.
[70:58]
Marc Maron
Oh, right. It's about a farmer.
[71:00]
Jessica Lange
No, that was country.
[71:02]
Marc Maron
Oh, that. Okay.
[71:02]
Jessica Lange
And that was something that I had developed.
[71:04]
Marc Maron
Okay.
[71:06]
Jessica Lange
As a. As a film.
[71:08]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[71:10]
Jessica Lange
And so we did. Well, we worked together on Country.
[71:14]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[71:15]
Jessica Lange
And then we did this film that Sam wrote and directed called Farm.
[71:20]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[71:21]
Jessica Lange
And, yeah, the other times things didn't pan out because.
[71:26]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[71:27]
Jessica Lange
Yeah. I was having babies.
[71:29]
Marc Maron
Couple babies.
[71:30]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[71:31]
Marc Maron
Well, it's interesting, like, in terms of really thinking about his, you know, the parts for women. In Sam Shepard's oeuvre, he seemed to be pretty much obsessed with exorcising whatever demon his father was in every point.
[71:44]
Jessica Lange
In every single play. Yeah.
[71:46]
Marc Maron
There's always some dark character with a spectrum of issues that would show up. Yeah.
[71:55]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[71:56]
Marc Maron
How'd you feel about him as an actor?
[71:58]
Jessica Lange
I thought Sam was great.
[71:59]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[72:00]
Jessica Lange
I think he was underrated.
[72:01]
Marc Maron
Totally, totally. Like, in the right stuff. And I think Kim Stanley's in that.
[72:05]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[72:06]
Marc Maron
She plays the barkeep.
[72:07]
Jessica Lange
Yeah. And she was not happy on that film. Yeah, she was very unhappy on that film. And they would always send Sam to try to get her out of the trailer and come to the set.
[72:21]
Marc Maron
Oh, my.
[72:24]
Jessica Lange
She used to call Sam Old Horse Eyes because he always looked like he was ready to.
[72:30]
Marc Maron
Oh, yeah. Well, he must have been a pretty sweet present in terms of navigating, getting her out of the trailer.
[72:37]
Jessica Lange
Well, yeah, she would pay. She actually liked Sam a lot, so.
[72:41]
Marc Maron
Yeah. What was her problem on that movie?
[72:44]
Jessica Lange
I don't think she liked.
[72:47]
Marc Maron
It's kind of a. A one dimensional character.
[72:49]
Jessica Lange
Yeah. And I. I don't think she was happy with Kaufman. Yeah. I'm not sure.
[72:55]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Yeah. I.
[72:56]
Jessica Lange
Really sure. But I just know. I think she was troubled on that film.
[73:01]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Yeah. It's. The arc of an acting career is pretty crazy, but, like, her and like, Jenna Rollins, like, are the ones that.
[73:09]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[73:10]
Marc Maron
Did you work with her?
[73:11]
Jessica Lange
No, I never did.
[73:12]
Marc Maron
Because it seems like you're in that spectrum.
[73:15]
Jessica Lange
Well, that's a great compliment.
[73:17]
Marc Maron
All of those. Yeah. I mean, you just get to these places.
[73:20]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[73:20]
Marc Maron
And in this new one, you did it again. It must have. When was the last time you had to, like, you know, dig deep for that stuff?
[73:28]
Jessica Lange
Oh, you mean in the great Lilian Hall. Yeah.
[73:33]
Marc Maron
I mean, dementia and also just, you know, aging as an actor.
[73:37]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[73:37]
Marc Maron
And just because you've lived a life on stage and on screen.
[73:42]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[73:42]
Marc Maron
So I have to assume in this film, this was all fairly familiar territory for you, outside of the reality of dementia.
[73:50]
Jessica Lange
Yeah. Or not.
[73:54]
Marc Maron
I can say with confidence that you don't have that.
[73:56]
Jessica Lange
Okay, thank you. Wonder sometimes. No. But, you know, part of the thing that attracted me so much about that story and that script that Michael co. Wrote and directed. Michael Christopher.
[74:14]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[74:15]
Jessica Lange
Was. Yeah. Where we were going with it. You know, this thing of grief, of loss, of loneliness.
[74:25]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[74:26]
Jessica Lange
I mean, those are all the. Those are all the emotional areas at this point in my life that are ever present. You know, you're always grieving the loss of someone or a time.
[74:42]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[74:43]
Jessica Lange
You know, a time that's been lost or. I mean, and then. And then the thing of. Yeah. Of loneliness, you know, I mean, and.
[74:54]
Marc Maron
Also that the idea. I guess it's based on a real person. Right.
[74:58]
Jessica Lange
Well, it started. It was originally conceived and written by the niece of Marion Seldes, the actress. Mostly a stage actress. A great stage actress.
[75:18]
Marc Maron
Right.
[75:20]
Jessica Lange
Who. Yes.
[75:21]
Marc Maron
Well, that. Like in.
[75:22]
Jessica Lange
Suffers dementia and.
[75:24]
Marc Maron
And doesn't want to give up performing.
[75:26]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[75:28]
Marc Maron
Well, I mean, there is. There's something about aging in the theater, you know, that it's a. When you're considered a great stage actress, you get to a certain point where the loneliness seems inherent in it.
[75:40]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[75:41]
Marc Maron
That, you know, you're kind of isolated and, you know, you've lived this. This public life and then your private life. I don't know that it gets small, but, you know, it always. If I think of characters like that, they always seem a little lonely.
[75:53]
Jessica Lange
Yeah. Yeah.
[75:54]
Marc Maron
And then, like, I don't know what the process was. Had you done that Chekhov play?
[76:01]
Jessica Lange
No. And that was one of the other things that really attracted me to doing that part was I actually got to play Ljubja from the Cherry Orchard.
[76:11]
Marc Maron
Yeah. You knew the play well.
[76:13]
Jessica Lange
Well, I knew it. I had never done it.
[76:15]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[76:16]
Jessica Lange
And this gave me, you know, the opportunity because we rehearsed for several weeks, so we were rehearsing it like a play, and we had a great ensemble of actors, and, you know. Yeah. And what I loved about the story was how Ljubje's life at that point in the Cherry Orchard mirrors Lillian Hall's life in the film, in the story. So. Because it's all about loss. It's all about what's being stripped away. In the case of Lillian hall, it's her memory, it's her ability to do what she's always done. It's like the knowledge, all of that, that's being taken away with the dementia. And in the Cherry Orchard, it's the land, it's the orchard, it's the house, it's family. Everything is being. These women are losing everything.
[77:18]
Marc Maron
Yeah. And you're like, I'm in.
[77:21]
Jessica Lange
I'm in. I like that. Okay. Loss, sorrow, grief, loneliness. I Can do it.
[77:28]
Marc Maron
Yeah. This is the time I can bring it all together.
[77:33]
Jessica Lange
Yeah. And, you know, I did a play on Broadway this spring, Mother Play, where, again, it's a character who loses everything. And there's a. It's about a 12, 15 minutes section of the play.
[77:50]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[77:51]
Jessica Lange
Where I'm at a certain point in the. You know, my son. My daughter, they're. My son has died. My daughter is alien, you know, but we've been separate. And I'm living alone in a little apartment, and I come home from work and it's a silent section of the play. And for about 15 minutes I'm on stage by myself. Just what does a woman do when she walks into her home at the end of the day?
[78:28]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[78:28]
Jessica Lange
She's confronted with Twilight, you know, with the. And how does she fill those empty, empty hours before she can, like, take her first drink, before she can go to bed, before she can, you know.
[78:46]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[78:46]
Jessica Lange
And it was really a fascinating. It was my favorite part of the play. One of my favorite parts of the play.
[78:52]
Marc Maron
Just you on stage.
[78:53]
Jessica Lange
Just me on stage.
[78:55]
Marc Maron
15 minutes.
[78:55]
Jessica Lange
15 minutes doing life. Yeah. The life of a lonely woman coming home. And how does she fill that time in the evening? How does she survive it?
[79:07]
Marc Maron
And during that. And there's direction. So there is.
[79:12]
Jessica Lange
Yeah. There are milestone, you know, there's kind of signposts.
[79:16]
Marc Maron
You just have to get there.
[79:17]
Jessica Lange
You just. But you have to fill that up.
[79:19]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[79:20]
Jessica Lange
You know. Yeah. You come in, you turn the lights on, you turn the radio on right away so you're not in silence.
[79:30]
Marc Maron
Right.
[79:30]
Jessica Lange
You turn the radio off, you turn the TV on.
[79:34]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[79:35]
Jessica Lange
Nothing there. You know, So. I mean, there are different things, but.
[79:38]
Marc Maron
You can't get out of yourself, but.
[79:40]
Jessica Lange
You can't escape yourself. And just this pervasive loneliness and then.
[79:45]
Marc Maron
So that leading into this movie where. Where yourself is leaving.
[79:51]
Jessica Lange
Yeah. Yeah. How about a good comedy?
[79:58]
Marc Maron
It's time. I'm going to step in here and say, you better do a comedy. But, I mean, I thought it was. So. I really enjoyed the movie. And I. And I. And I like to like the fact that they cast Lily Rabe.
[80:13]
Jessica Lange
I know. Isn't that great?
[80:14]
Marc Maron
She grew up in it.
[80:15]
Jessica Lange
I know. It's.
[80:16]
Marc Maron
It's like she knows exactly what's happening.
[80:20]
Jessica Lange
I know when she came into. I mean, it's that thing where you work with an actor where you know that they're bringing something that's so personal and whatever it is, it's like grounded in something that's so true. I mean, you can always Sense that about another actor, is it coming from a place of absolutely absolute truth?
[80:47]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[80:48]
Jessica Lange
And it was. Yeah. And I mean, working with Lily on some of those scenes was just like, whoa.
[80:56]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[80:57]
Jessica Lange
Incredible.
[80:58]
Marc Maron
She's so good.
[80:59]
Jessica Lange
Yep. She's great.
[81:00]
Marc Maron
And Pierce Brosnan was like.
[81:02]
Jessica Lange
I know. How about that?
[81:03]
Marc Maron
What a fucking. He's like. He's like the relief.
[81:06]
Jessica Lange
I know it. I know there was. I mean, I loved our scenes together, the little balcony scenes. They were fabulous. Yeah.
[81:14]
Marc Maron
He's so good.
[81:15]
Jessica Lange
He's so good.
[81:16]
Marc Maron
And he was. He was real present.
[81:17]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[81:18]
Marc Maron
You know, in, like, there were real moments between you where there was something, you know, some longing and some history and some, you know, sadness. Like that. That beat where he tells you to step away from the leg.
[81:29]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[81:30]
Marc Maron
I mean, it's like, really, you know, it's real stuff.
[81:32]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[81:32]
Marc Maron
A real caring.
[81:34]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[81:34]
Marc Maron
Like, you don't know exactly how long they've been living together, but it seems like a long time.
[81:38]
Jessica Lange
Yeah. Yeah. They've known each other a long time. No, I loved those scenes with him. I mean, that one where. Because in the script, it was written that I come out on the balcony and, you know, we have an exchange, and then I'm standing there and I drop my robe and stand there in the kind of, you know, the evening light. And I said early on, I said, you know, I'm not going to do this. I'm not going to stand here naked. So let me.
[82:11]
Marc Maron
Those days are behind you.
[82:12]
Jessica Lange
Yeah, those days are long gone. And besides, he doesn't want to see it.
[82:17]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[82:19]
Jessica Lange
So I said, let me ask him to kiss me.
[82:24]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Oh, that's what that decision was.
[82:26]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[82:26]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[82:26]
Jessica Lange
And, you know, I love that moment because it's a woman who probably hasn't been kissed for a long time. Her husband's been dead quite a while, and there's no possibility that she will again.
[82:40]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[82:41]
Jessica Lange
So. But there's something about being kissed that she still wants to, you know, experience and remember it so she can maybe take it with her.
[82:54]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[82:55]
Jessica Lange
And it was such a great.
[82:57]
Marc Maron
It was good.
[82:57]
Jessica Lange
It was such a wonderful scene to play with him.
[83:01]
Marc Maron
And I haven't seen, like, Bates really do the business in a long time. And she, like, dug in.
[83:07]
Jessica Lange
Yeah, she did.
[83:07]
Marc Maron
And it was pretty great.
[83:08]
Jessica Lange
Yeah, she was wonderful, too.
[83:10]
Marc Maron
Yeah, I thought it was great. And so in the process, what was the hardest thing for you in doing that person?
[83:19]
Jessica Lange
Well, when Michael came in, he moved a lot of the scene. You know, I think in the script that was sent to Michael, Christopher, originally, the Opening night of Cherry Orchard came in the middle of the story. And then after that, you just kind of tracked this woman disappearing. But what became interesting for him and what ultimately was the most interesting for me was to see somebody desperately trying to stave that off.
[83:57]
Marc Maron
So to start with the. To have the play the Cherry Orchard ever present all the way through.
[84:03]
Jessica Lange
Yeah. And also not to get to the end of the Cherry Orchard until the end of the film, and then, you know, what the outcome will be a couple years down the road. But what was more interesting than playing that was the, you know, how she fights against it.
[84:26]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[84:27]
Jessica Lange
And, you know, her singular bravery and tenacity. And to get through this play, one last play, because the theater has meant the world to her.
[84:39]
Marc Maron
Right. And you get the sense at the end that that was it.
[84:43]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[84:44]
Marc Maron
And she did it. She did it with the help of Kathy Bates.
[84:47]
Jessica Lange
Yeah. And a Cass who was ever present and supporting her.
[84:52]
Marc Maron
Pretty great.
[84:53]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[84:53]
Marc Maron
And in that, like, I don't know the play well enough in that moment where you speak directly to your daughter. Is that in the play or.
[84:58]
Jessica Lange
No.
[84:59]
Marc Maron
Okay. So that was just sort of the.
[85:01]
Jessica Lange
Yeah. She kind of takes the language and moves it around a little bit.
[85:05]
Marc Maron
That was great, that moment. I'm getting choked up now. So when you, like. Do you, like, when you do these things in terms of, like, speaking of your own life, how often are you navigating darkness?
[85:25]
Jessica Lange
Yeah. I mean, more than I should be.
[85:28]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[85:29]
Jessica Lange
More than I wish I were always.
[85:31]
Marc Maron
Or more. Or is it more now?
[85:33]
Jessica Lange
No, I mean, I've. I've. I think I've always. But maybe it's more now because I'm much more alone now.
[85:42]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[85:42]
Jessica Lange
You know, my children are grown.
[85:43]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[85:44]
Jessica Lange
They're out of the house.
[85:45]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[85:46]
Jessica Lange
Sam is gone.
[85:47]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[85:48]
Jessica Lange
My. You know, the generations before me, they're long gone.
[85:54]
Marc Maron
Right.
[85:55]
Jessica Lange
So it's. Yeah. The. You know, it's narrowing down. Narrowing down.
[86:01]
Marc Maron
And I guess that's what. That's where. Because I always wonder with certain types of performers, not necessarily you, but, like, you know, that there. There. There. There comes a point where you don't. You don't want to stop because it gets you out of that.
[86:17]
Jessica Lange
Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I. I still love doing it, and there's still a lot to discover and to experience. So, you know, it's just. And I guess. Yeah. In a way, it is. It takes you out of yourself.
[86:34]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[86:35]
Jessica Lange
You know, which is always a good thing.
[86:37]
Marc Maron
And you don't get. Yeah. And you don't get exhausted. I heard a story about Brando sending Jack Nicholson a sort of letter after he saw the Crossing guard, saying, like, it was an amazing performance. And that's why I can't do it anymore. I just. I don't have the. It's exhausting.
[86:51]
Jessica Lange
Yeah, yeah.
[86:53]
Marc Maron
If you're really doing it, it's exhausting.
[86:54]
Jessica Lange
Well, I did notice this time doing the play, and we. We had like a 12 week, 15 week run. Whatever. With previews.
[87:03]
Marc Maron
Yeah, with the mother. The mother play.
[87:06]
Jessica Lange
The mother play. I've never been so tired and. But, you know, the play itself was structured, and that's what made it work, is that we were never off stage. So it was like, what, you know, an hour, 45 minutes, just straight through, never a break. You never even sat down and, like, tried to catch your breath. And you were moving at this tremendous velocity through 40 years in the lives of these three characters. You know, the mother, the daughter and the son.
[87:41]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[87:41]
Jessica Lange
And through all sorts of tragedy.
[87:44]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[87:46]
Jessica Lange
So it was like. But, yeah, I thought, holy shit, this is really exhausting.
[87:51]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[87:52]
Jessica Lange
But it was worth it. But it was also, like, I took, you know, three months just to sit up in my cabin in the woods doing nothing.
[88:01]
Marc Maron
And that felt good.
[88:01]
Jessica Lange
Yeah, that felt good.
[88:03]
Marc Maron
Oh, good. Oh, good. But you still have a lot of people around you here and there, right?
[88:07]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[88:07]
Marc Maron
Well, that's good. Well, it was an honor talking to you. It was great.
[88:12]
Jessica Lange
Thank you. It was lovely. Yeah.
[88:14]
Marc Maron
And I'm glad you're well.
[88:15]
Jessica Lange
Yes, knock on wood.
[88:17]
Marc Maron
Yeah. And I thought the film was great. And so where you go now? Back to New York.
[88:22]
Jessica Lange
Yeah, go back to New York tomorrow. And there are a couple projects that are in the works.
[88:26]
Marc Maron
Oh, good.
[88:27]
Jessica Lange
So hopefully, you know, those will come through.
[88:29]
Marc Maron
Oh, great.
[88:30]
Jessica Lange
One is a story of Marlene Dietrich at, you know, her post Las Vegas. Yeah. Her relationship with Burt Bachrach and that whole time of her life. That's really fascinating.
[88:44]
Marc Maron
Well, that's because you did. You did Joan Crawford, too, right?
[88:47]
Jessica Lange
Yeah. And then Francis Farmish.
[88:49]
Marc Maron
So, yeah, you're doing it. And you did Gray Gardens. You did a Big Edie, and.
[88:54]
Jessica Lange
Yeah, that was great fun. Yeah. And did Patsy Clyde.
[88:58]
Marc Maron
Oh, Patsy.
[88:59]
Jessica Lange
Yeah.
[89:00]
Marc Maron
That's trash.
[89:01]
Jessica Lange
I like playing real characters.
[89:03]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm glad you're working. You seem pretty happy.
[89:07]
Jessica Lange
Yeah, I'm doing okay.
[89:08]
Marc Maron
All right.
[89:09]
Jessica Lange
Thanks, Mark.
[89:15]
Marc Maron
There you go. The Great Lillian hall is streaming on max. And it's a good watch. It's a deep performance. Hang out for a minute. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash. Progressive makes it easy. Just drop in some details about yourself and see if you're eligible to save money when you bundle your home and auto policies. The process only takes minutes and it could mean hundreds more in your pocket. Visit progressive.com after this episode to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states. Hey, people, if you're looking to dive into some old WTF episodes, you can check out Jessica Lange's King Kong co star Jeff Bridges on episode 853. That's available for free on whatever platform you're using to listen to this episode right now. You like playing these. These western type of dudes. I remember. You know, Westerns. You know, my dad, who's in a. You know a lot of great westerns. You know, High Noon. Yeah. You know, whenever he'd come home from work dressed up like a cowboy, I put on his boots and his hat and, you know. Cowboys, sure. Man. What a. What a time. And you did that thing that. What? Bad Company was sort of a West Bad Company. That was. Yeah. Bob Benton's first movie. Yeah. Is that a deep movie? Yeah, I think so. It's a good movie. Yeah. You know who's in that movie? Who plays Big Joe? David Huddleston. David Huddleston. You know who David Huddleston is? I gotta look. David Huddleston is the Big Lebowski. Oh, yeah. Yeah, man. So David Huddleson was in Bad Company and he was Big Lebowski, man. Yeah, exactly. It's a small world after. That's Jeff bridges on episode 853, which also features a separate interview with his brother Beau Bridges. To get all episodes ad free, sign up for wtf. Just go to the link in the episode description or go to wtfpod.com and click on WTF. Don't forget, you can also go to the episode description to submit an Ask Mark Anything question for a future full Marin episode. Just click on the link and ask me whatever is on your mind. And remember, before we go, this podcast is hosted by acast. I did the. I think I got the looper thing right, but I still can't fade out properly. I will learn how to fade out properly. I promise you.
[92:26]
Jessica Lange
SA.
[93:46]
Marc Maron
Boomer lives monkey and lafonda cat annuals everywhere.