Episode 1601 - Justin Kurzel

Summary

WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1601 - Justin Kurzel
Release Date: December 19, 2024

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Introduction and Current Projects

In this episode, Marc Maron welcomes acclaimed Australian director Justin Kurzel to discuss their collaborative work and delve deep into Kurzel's cinematic journey. Marc begins by sharing his minor role in Kurzel's Bruce Springsteen biopic, "Deliver Me From Nowhere," where he portrays a studio engineer. He reflects on the experience, highlighting interactions with Springsteen and fellow actors Jeremy Allen White and Jeremy Strong.

Marc Maron [00:02]:
"In between takes, I'm like, catching up with Bruce the Boss. Obviously, he remembers talking to me, but... it's been an amazing experience."

Exploring Justin Kurzel's Filmography

The conversation shifts to Justin Kurzel's body of work, focusing on his films "The Order," "Snowtown Murders," "Nitram," and "True History of the Kelly Gang." Marc commends Kurzel's ability to create disturbing yet poetic narratives, emphasizing his knack for character studies and the utilization of Australia's diverse landscapes.

Marc Maron [06:15]:
"His movies are disturbing, poetic, amazing character studies... they're just stunning."

Kurzel elaborates on the thematic consistency in his films, exploring dark undercurrents within communities and the psychological complexities of his characters.

Justin Kurzel [14:24]:
"It's a genre... about something procedural, but with an extraordinary momentum that reminds me of classic storytelling."

Character Development and Psychological Depth

A significant portion of the discussion centers on character portrayal, particularly the humanization of antagonists. Marc touches upon his role as Alan Berg in "The Order," a character based on the real-life Denver talk radio host assassinated by the Order. He reflects on the challenges of portraying violence without glorifying it.

Marc Maron [09:45]:
"I'm recommending that you see these movies and also watch 'The Order.' Brace yourselves and know that you're going to deal with some heavy shit."

Kurzel shares insights into directing Marc, focusing on balancing authenticity with the film's psychological intensity.

Justin Kurzel [25:07]:
"It's about how do you make this person feel human... how do you make them familiar without making them likable in a way that distorts their true nature."

Influences and Comparisons to Classic Films

Kurzel draws parallels between his work and iconic films like "The French Connection," "Black Mass," and "Mad Max," highlighting his admiration for directors like Michael Mann and William Friedkin. He discusses how these influences shape his approach to storytelling and character arcs.

Justin Kurzel [27:55]:
"It's about the mystery of the character that makes them so compelling... that the audience is intrigued by their journey."

Marc echoes this sentiment, appreciating how Kurzel's films adhere to and subvert traditional Western motifs to create impactful narratives.

Marc Maron [54:43]:
"Westerns are a huge part of film intellectually... and that a good many films are structurally Westerns."

Technical Aspects and Production Stories

The duo delves into the technicalities of filmmaking, discussing aspects like cinematography, sound design, and the meticulous process of shooting intense scenes. Marc recounts the challenges faced during filming, particularly the use of squibs for realistic assassination scenes in "The Order."

Justin Kurzel [79:13]:
"We had to nail the squib effects quickly, and it was a sticky mess, but it worked. The blood had to look real."

Future Projects and Concluding Thoughts

Looking ahead, Kurzel hints at his upcoming project, "Burning Rainbow Farm," inspired by the true story of the Burning Rainbow Marijuana Festival. He expresses enthusiasm for exploring complex characters and real-life events through his lens.

Justin Kurzel [77:07]:
"It's an extraordinary story... a beautiful love story intertwined with a significant historical event."

Marc wraps up by expressing his admiration for Kurzel's work and the profound conversations they've had, highlighting the depth and intensity Kurzel brings to his films.

Marc Maron [80:07]:
"I've loved watching your other work. It's been a great talk. I enjoy..."

Personal Reflections and Final Remarks

Throughout the episode, Marc shares personal anecdotes, including his 2025 tour dates and heartfelt reflections on visiting his parents, particularly dealing with his father's dementia. He emphasizes the importance of cherishing time with loved ones, adding a layer of vulnerability to the discussion.

Marc Maron [42:26]:
"So I'm choosing to spend time with the one whose memories are drifting away as opposed to the one who seems to have a pretty good recollection of everything."

Conclusion

This episode offers a profound exploration of Justin Kurzel's filmmaking philosophy, his dedication to character-driven narratives, and the psychological intricacies embedded within his films. Marc Maron and Justin Kurzel engage in a candid dialogue that not only sheds light on their professional collaborations but also touches upon personal challenges and motivations, providing listeners with an in-depth understanding of the art and humanity behind Kurzel's work.

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Notable Quotes:

• Marc Maron [00:02]:
  "In between takes, I'm like, catching up with Bruce the Boss. Obviously, he remembers talking to me, but... it's been an amazing experience."

• Marc Maron [06:15]:
  "His movies are disturbing, poetic, amazing character studies... they're just stunning."

• Justin Kurzel [14:24]:
  "It's a genre... about something procedural, but with an extraordinary momentum that reminds me of classic storytelling."

• Marc Maron [09:45]:
  "I'm recommending that you see these movies and also watch 'The Order.' Brace yourselves and know that you're going to deal with some heavy shit."

• Justin Kurzel [25:07]:
  "It's about how do you make this person feel human... how do you make them familiar without making them likable in a way that distorts their true nature."

• Justin Kurzel [27:55]:
  "It's about the mystery of the character that makes them so compelling... that the audience is intrigued by their journey."

• Marc Maron [54:43]:
  "Westerns are a huge part of film intellectually... and that a good many films are structurally Westerns."

• Justin Kurzel [79:13]:
  "We had to nail the squib effects quickly, and it was a sticky mess, but it worked. The blood had to look real."

• Justin Kurzel [77:07]:
  "It's an extraordinary story... a beautiful love story intertwined with a significant historical event."

• Marc Maron [42:26]:
  "So I'm choosing to spend time with the one whose memories are drifting away as opposed to the one who seems to have a pretty good recollection of everything."

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This comprehensive summary captures the essence of Marc Maron and Justin Kurzel's extensive conversation, highlighting key discussions, insights, and memorable quotes that provide a window into Kurzel's artistic vision and personal experiences.

Transcript

[Marc Maron]

Hey, folks, I know what it's like around the holidays. You get out of your routines, and for me, I always need to push myself to stay on track with my fitness goals. If you need that extra push, Peloton is always ready to get you going, no matter how busy your schedule gets. Peloton offers a variety of challenging classes, from running to cycling and everything in between. And with Peloton's All Access membership, you can work out where you need to at home, on your bike, tread or row, or take your favorite classes on the Go with the Peloton app. Find your push. Find your power with [e-mail] all right, let's do this. How are you? What the fuckers? What the Buddies? What the Knicks? What's happening? I'm Marc Maron. This is my podcast. Welcome to it. Welcome, everybody. Holidays are coming. I hope they're tolerable. I hope they work. I hope they give you a reprieve. Who knows, right? Well, I didn't have to end it like that. Happy holidays. That's what I meant to say. Even though the next week I'll talk to you before then, but I'm getting in the spirit. How would that be? Does that sound reasonable? That's what it is. This is the tone of my holiday spirit. So, anyway, folks, I'm in New York. I'm doing a small cameo part in this Bruce Springsteen motion picture, Deliver Me From Nowhere. It's a minor part, but it's an important part. I play a studio engineer, and I think I can talk to you about this. I won't say anything about the film, but it's already public information. Jeremy Allen White is playing Bruce Springsteen and Jeremy Strong is playing his manager, John Landau. So I've been here at the power station in New York where the actual recording sessions that we're documenting in the movie took place. And I've never been here, and it's a fairly historical studio. A lot of people have recorded here. But, you know, I got here on set, I've got a few lines, but, you know, I'm present in. In these scenes, and I have sort of these moments with the two Jeremys, and so I'm working with Jeremy Strong and Paul Walter Hauser is here as well, and some other people I know, and Jeremy Allen White. I've talked to Hauser and I've talked to Strong on the podcast, so I feel like I know them a bit. But I've also talked to Bruce Springsteen on the podcast, but he and the actual John Landau are here. They're, like, here all day. So in between takes, it's really an amazing thing. Okay? There are moments where no matter how much I may whine or complain or get anxious or neurotic about my life, there are moments that I clearly have no choice but to go, holy fuck, this is kind of amazing. I mean, in between takes, I'm like, catching up with Bruce the Boss. Obviously, he remembers talking to me, but, you know, he's just there at Video Village. Scott Cooper's directing, but everyone's kind of sitting around and, you know, it's a long day and there's a lot of motion and people here and there. And I've just taken as many opportunities as possible to be as seemingly casual as I can to engage Springsteen in conversation, you know, and it's been. It's been a real. A real kick. I don't know what life I'm living, but the fact that I have enough background with Bruce Springsteen just from interviewing him a while back, and this happens fairly frequently, I made enough of an impression where he remembers the conversation, so I can kind of pick up from a place that's familiar. And I'm just kind of hanging around in between takes, talking to Bruce Springsteen about open tunings, about John Mellencamp, about New Jersey, and it just. I don't know what to tell you. It's been an amazing experience for the day I've been here. So today, speaking of acting, I talked to Justin Kurzil. He's the director of the Order, which is out now. And as some of you know, I play Alan Berg, the Denver, Colorado talk radio host that was gunned down by the Order. People have been asking me what it was like to be shot because it's a pretty brutal bit of business. I'm only in the movie for a few minutes, but I do have some mic time as a radio personality. And then I get out of my car in my driveway and I'm assassinated with the American version of an Uzi. I can't remember what the motto of that gun is. I can't remember what it's called, but it was a full on. You know, I had to put a jacket on with squibs. And we had. It wasn't a huge budget movie, but they had enough for two jackets loaded up with the blood explosions, so we really had to nail it. And I think we got it on the second one, thank God. And the blood was all over everything. It's very sticky. It's a sticky mess. It's a disturbing bit of Business. But I didn't get to know Justin that well during the shoot because I was. Again, it was one of these parts where I was only there for a few days. But I think it was an impactful few minutes on screen, and I think it sets the movie rolling in a pretty disturbing way. Rightfully so. It's disturbing. But if you watch the movie, you'll find that Kurzel is a very nuanced and very kind of a visionary director. And it's weird because I didn't really know it until I started to dig into his. His catalog because I have to talk to the guy and I, you know, obviously I'd seen the Order and I like it and I. I know that he's got a tone. But then I watched some of his older movies. He did a movie called the. The Snowtown Murders. It might be just called Snowtown. And then he did another movie called Nitram, which is about a mass killer, the Port Arthur Killer in Tasmania. And Snowtown Murders is also a true story about a serial killer who had sort of radicalized a community to enable him to kill. And some of the members of the community were also involved in the killing, specifically of accused sex offenders in the area. And they are amazing movies. I mean, they're poetic, they're dark. He's got a way of shooting. There's a sensibility to how he uses the country of Australia and the landscapes of Australia. And he's just a very gifted filmmaker. And it's just odd, you know, I get these gigs like Scott Cooper, who I'm working with now, directed some great movies. Black Mass, which I talk about constantly. He's great. And, you know, with the Pale Blue Eye and then Hostages and then that one with Woody Harrelson, of course, Crazy Heart with, With Jeff Bridges years ago, but Kurzweil, I just, I. I wasn't familiar. I knew he had directed movies, but, God, they are disturbing, poetic. Amazing character studies, those ones. Nitram. Caleb Landry Jones, who. That guy in. In Nitram, which is a sort of character study of a masked shooter. That guy gives a performance like, like unlike anything else that exists out there. It's just fucking genius. And you can't even begin to understand where it comes from. And Judy Davis is in it, plays his mother, and I haven't seen her in years. And it was just. It's an amazing actor's movie. I mean, just, Just amazing. I completely recommend these Kurzel movies. I mean, they're just stunning. They're. They're just Disturbing and, and so worth watching. Like he, he also did the. I believe it's called the True History of the Kelly Gang, about Ned Kelly, the mythic Australian outlaw. And that is unbelievable. Just unique movies that kind of displace the narrative a bit to, to kind of honor the, the feeling of the film. And it just. I don't know, I. I get excited, you know, as I get older, to just. All my life. But to, to get older than to see things that blow your mind. I mean, that is a gift. So what am I doing exactly? I am recommending that you see these movies and also watch the Order. Okay. That's all I'm doing that I'm just, I'm. I'm plugging stuff that I'm involved with and I'm plugging people that I like for no other reason other than I like them. So. My 2025 tour kicks off in Sacramento, California at the Crest Theater on Friday, January 10th. Then I'm in Napa, California at the Uptown theater on Saturday, January 11th. Fort Collins, Colorado, Lincoln Center Performance Hall, Friday, January 17th. Boulder, Colorado at the Boulder Theater on Saturday, January 18th. I'll be in Santa Barbara, California at the Libero theater on Thursday, January 30, San Luis Obispo, California at the Fremont center on Friday, January 31 in Monterey, California at the Golden State Theater on Saturday, February 1. Then I'm coming to Iowa, Missouri, North Carolina, Tennessee, Kentucky, Oklahoma, Texas, South Carolina, Illinois, Michigan. Yeah, a lot of that's. I guess I should just call it my Red State Tour. Go to wtfpod.com tour for all my dates and links to tickets. What else is happening? I don't know what your Christmas plans are, but I'm going to go. I'm going to go see my dad. I feel like that any opportunity I can, I should go out and see my dad. In these days and months, hopefully years, I don't know where he still remembers me. I know a lot of people have been through this. It's obviously new to me. It's hard. It's somehow a little existentially scary as this unfolds. It's one thing, I guess, if your parent dies and at least there's a certain amount of closure and obviously that will happen. But to see them drift away and still be alive and be vacant in terms of their memories of their life, their memories of the life you had with them, it's rough and weird and highly common. Obviously, I am trying to spend as much time as possible. And this is a man that I've had problems with on and off over my life, but I love him. My mother's around too, but she doesn't have dementia and she's in Florida. But I got to go see her too, and I'll try to make time for that in the new year, but it's not as pressing because she still knows me. And I don't know if that's a way to prioritize spending time with your elderly parents, but I guess I'm choosing to spend time with the one whose memories are drifting away as opposed to the one who seems to have a pretty good recollection of everything. And hopefully that won't change and I'll get to spend time with her as well. Okay, well, I guess that's my holiday pitch. Spend time with your parents. They're not going to be around forever, and they may not be around even if they are around. So look, I had this conversation with Justin Kurzel, the director I was talking about earlier. The Order is playing in theaters now, and like I said, I would highly recommend almost all of his other movies. I there's only two I didn't see. I didn't see Assassin's Creed or his Macbeth, but I believe I've seen all the other ones. And the Order is disturbing and the other ones are too. So brace yourselves and know that you're going to deal with some heavy shit.

[Justin Kurzel]

But.

[Marc Maron]

But it's all done brilliantly on a cinematic level. And he came out of my house and I hadn't seen him since we shot the movie. And so this is me talking to Justin Kurzel. I got a lot of travel coming up, going to New York, New Jersey. I got the tour dates next year. Once I'm on the plane or in the car, I'm good leading up to that moment, little stressed out. And look, if you've got a lot of travel coming up or maybe one big trip that requires a lot of planning, it probably feels like you have a lot on your plate. You might think that hosting your place on Airbnb while you're away is too much of a hassle, but what if someone else took care of everything for you? That's what can happen now with the Airbnb co hosting network. You can get a co host to handle all the hosting duties for you. These are high quality local co hosts who take care of your home and your guests. They'll create the listing for you, manage your reservations, and even send messages to your guests. Then the co host will be on hand for any support your guests might need when they're at your place. So someone else takes care of everything and you still make some cash while you're away and your space is being unused. Now go make your travel plans and let a co host handle everything else. Find a co [e-mail] host. How you doing?

[Justin Kurzel]

Good. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

What is the. I was about to say off the mic there, though. The part that I did in your movie, in the order, was a small but essential part.

[Justin Kurzel]

It was.

[Marc Maron]

I didn't know I would like open the movie, but I guess it's the right way to go.

[Justin Kurzel]

Well, the character played in many different parts. It was sort of. It opened the movie and then. And then it sort of played continuously sort of through the movie, and then it ended the movie. We actually sort of went back to it. So it was quite a malleable character.

[Marc Maron]

Well, I gave you enough stuff. You were. You were standing over me. Go. Keep going. Remember?

[Justin Kurzel]

I do remember.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. On the mic. Just keep going. And I realized, like, oh, he's got to fill a lot of. A lot of radio time.

[Justin Kurzel]

Well, I thought it'd be kind of really amazing to have to have your voice as a sort of narration all the way through, you know, in quite an unconventional way. But you were really important to it. I was actually most nervous about you saying yes.

[Marc Maron]

Really?

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah. I didn't see anyone else in the role. I really did.

[Marc Maron]

How'd you hear about me?

[Justin Kurzel]

Well, I. I was say, I remember being in London and I was doing a film, and I was sort of hating it.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Justin Kurzel]

And my favorite movie was that it was this film called Assassin's Creed.

[Marc Maron]

You hated that movie.

[Justin Kurzel]

I hated the process of making it because we didn't have a script, and. And it was just really challenging and really kind of hard. And my family were away from me. It wasn't that I hated doing the film. It was. I sort of hated the time because I was feeling quite lonely and.

[Marc Maron]

But it was such an. A character movie. Was it a job?

[Justin Kurzel]

No, it was. I just got really seduced by the concept and the idea of the game, which was this sort of idea of sort of, you know, DNA sort of traveling through us. And the idea of sort of, who are we and why are we from our ancestors? And Michael Fassbender and I had worked on Macbeth together. Yeah, so.

[Marc Maron]

So we kind of guys were tight. You had a rhythm.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah, we had sort of something there. But I remember. I remember walking around I park and started listening to your podcast.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, really?

[Justin Kurzel]

Like, this is really early on, and that yeah, that fantastic one you did with Louis.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, yeah.

[Justin Kurzel]

And I, And I thought it was just kind of amazing that you were trying to work your shit out through talking on a podcast. And I found it just captivating.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Justin Kurzel]

So I kind of. I'd listened to you a lot.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Justin Kurzel]

And there was just. As soon as I read the script, I kind of just thought about you.

[Marc Maron]

Well, that's funny, because when they offered the role to me, they said, he wants you to play Alan Berg. And I thought, well, who else is gonna play Alan Berg?

[Justin Kurzel]

So was Alan Berg someone that was a figure that you were very conscious about?

[Marc Maron]

Yes. I mean, I absolutely knew who he was. I knew the story. I had at some point in my life, kind of looked into it and who he. What happened without. I think it was pre Internet rabbit hole, but certainly I saw Boghossian's show and then the movie, and I think that probably when that came out, it elevated my fascination with Berg. But I knew of him, but I didn't know specifics. And it turns out even with the research that you did, there's not a lot there to go on. There's a bit of audio and then there's just who he is. So. But I was always sort of fascinated with the idea of it, you know, just the solitary voice that, you know, lodges in this. This ideological kind of, you know, that becoming a target. And I thought, well, if. And you know, knock on wood, I thought, well, if I, If I do this, maybe it won't happen in real life. Like, I feel, you know, I feel threatened, I feel scared in general. Yeah. I don't know how much of it's paranoia and how much of it's real. You know, obviously I'm not high on the target list as a guy who speaks his mind, but certainly when I go out into the world to do stand up, I. I feel it. So I just thought that I had to do it. I thought it was some sort of serendipitous thing beyond coincidence.

[Justin Kurzel]

There's something interesting. You said the other day in the. That press conference that you kind of, you know, you do your thing and you put it out there and sometimes you don't know where it lands.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. You know, no. And. And now with, you know, everybody's so accessible one way or the other. If somebody wants to get to you, it's pretty easy. And I think, you know, in light of your movie and then in light of however they're framing or whatever this assassination of this healthcare CEO is, that was a political assassination. It was a Premeditated, meant to have an impact. And there's many people think he's a folk hero or somebody who did something that finally needed to be done to raise awareness or something. But once, you know, people take. Start taking these guns into their own hands for specific reasons. And you've covered both types of people in terms of your films, where you've got people who take up arms for psychological problems. And I guess ideology can be a psychological problem, but there's sort of an agenda to that. And then, you know, you've dealt with just guys who kill people. So, like, I don't know that you would have thought your movie, the Order, would necessarily be seen as a hero's journey.

[Justin Kurzel]

Well, it definitely sharpened up as we. As we were sort of, you know, writing it and then shooting it and then editing it, and it's come out in release, and since then, you know, we've obviously had the election. So it's certainly sharpened up well.

[Marc Maron]

I mean, what kind of. Are you seeing any of that type of reaction to it that, you know, that the intention of your portrayal of this guy was not meant to elevate him with that community which is large now?

[Justin Kurzel]

Well, you know, when I read it, the screenplay and then the book, the Silent Brotherhood, it was very stealth, like all this stuff. It was really sort of sitting in the shadows. And I think even at the time when those kind of heists were happening and they were sort of building this militia for these domestic terrorist attacks. Yeah, it was all pretty unknown.

[Marc Maron]

Well, yeah, this was like supposedly the minority, the margins, the dark underbelly of what we always knew. But there's an order in every small city now.

[Justin Kurzel]

I mean, I think that's what it is, is it's. So. I mean, there's a discussion in the film where Butler, the head of the area nation, talks to the old guy. Yeah. Talks to Bob Matthews about just steadying down, you know, and he. And he sort of says, you know, in 10 years time, we'll have people in high places and. High places. Yeah. And it is kind of that, to me is what's quite shocking is just how kind of visible it is now.

[Marc Maron]

Well, they were very stealth, you know, and this sort of marriage of, you know, religious activism and, you know, conservative politics, whatever that may be, that the right was, you know, slow and steady. It's not. It didn't happen overnight, you know, the. The way it's all come together, you know, and now with this sort of influx of young men's grievance and the brain fucking ability of Technology to radicalize fairly quickly. You know, it's just a perfect storm and I don't know what the fuck it's gonna look like. You get to go back to Australia.

[Justin Kurzel]

I do. I do. I saw a fantastic photo the other day sent by Kevin, who wrote the Silent Brotherhood, sitting in a cinema with Ellen's ex partner, who was watching it for the first time.

[Marc Maron]

His ex wife.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah. She was extremely moved by the film and obviously very confronted by the assassination scene in the film, but felt really heartened by it, which was lovely.

[Marc Maron]

Did she say I did all right with Alan?

[Justin Kurzel]

Yes, she did. I think so, yeah. No, I mean, I think there was a simpatico with you and that character. There was something. Something there that was just sort of effortless. I mean, that was what was really interesting about directing you.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Justin Kurzel]

Your experience. Yeah. And the DNA of you next to this sort of presenter and how much is you and how much character and how much to kind of push certain things. That. That. That was. That was really interesting for you. Yeah, yeah, it was. Because, you know, your voice is so recognizable and then there's such a kind of thing there. And then Alan has his own voice and it's kind of like, okay, do I push you towards this other character or do I embrace naturally what's sort of coming from you? It was an interesting little tussle, I.

[Marc Maron]

Think, that, you know, ideologically and, you know, in terms of our impulse to start shit for the right reasons. You know, I think I shared that with him because this is not a guy that was. This was pre talk radio, really, in terms of the cultural impact of what talk radio become, primarily on the right. And this guy was just a sort of righteous shit starter. Because none of the stuff that was in the script or even in his audios was not necessarily political. It was anti racist and it was provocative. But I understood where he was going. Cause I have that same DNA. So what I did try to do, and I noticed when I watched a movie that I did get it a couple times, he did have a slight Midwest thing going. And I did kind of do that prep work. And I didn't know if it would come out, but it did a little bit. And that's all. He had a little bit of Chicago in there.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Did you notice that?

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And I was just happy that we were able to sort of get the look because it was so jarring the way he looked. Because he had that head injury that he was trying to cover all the time.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

With that hair. And I Had the beard, so it wasn't really a big stretch to make it work. I was thrilled by the whole thing. I watched it and I was like. I felt good about it.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah. There's a. I think also that speech that you make in it too, that we sort of talked about in terms of everyone treating each other nicely. You know, that landed really strongly in the end. Just before the assassination.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Right, right.

[Justin Kurzel]

I think when you talk about everyone just listening to each other and loving each other, it's interesting that kind of went back and forth in terms of where it wanted to be.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Justin Kurzel]

That was you. I mean, that was your. That was just you coloring something there that went beyond, I think, the kind of rants of. And the kind of familiarity of, I think, some of his sort of programs. There was something in there suddenly felt very personal and point of view, and it was really beautiful.

[Marc Maron]

It spoke to. Thank you. It spoke to the time.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Right. So, you know, we already. We had the leeway to do that.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But like, I've done sort of a half deep dive into some of the other work of yours. And this script, I mean, you know, I watched Nitram and I watched Murders.

[Justin Kurzel]

Snowtown.

[Marc Maron]

Snowtown Murders. And, you know, there. This script was really, you know, beat to beat narrative storytelling. Whereas, like, it seems that, you know, maybe outside of Shakespeare, you're used to working with a little more space.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Where, you know, you're not. There's almost no expository writing in either of those movies which are about murderers. And so approaching this thing outside of tone, you know, was it challenging or limiting?

[Justin Kurzel]

No, I loved. I loved being in a genre. Like, I just loved seeing the next pontoon coming in terms of an event. A beat.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, yeah.

[Justin Kurzel]

And I thought that was what was unique about the. About the screenplay that was very character driven and that there was. It was about sort of something. It's a procedural, it's a procedural, but it had an extraordinary sort of momentum to it that did remind me of some of the films that I love the most. The French Connection and some of those Lumay kind of Friedkin films. Mississippi Burning by Alan Parker. Just those really immersive and thrilling kind of very classic kind of storytelling kind of genres. So that was something different. Whereas those other films that you sort of mentioned, they do have space and they're kind of. They're very. They're character studies.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Justin Kurzel]

In a way.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Justin Kurzel]

And very different kind of tone. But this one was like. Yeah, I just want to do. You know, I just want to put My Hat in the Ring with a good old American film. And there was something about this that suddenly, you know, started to sort of speak in a way to today that was unexpected for me.

[Marc Maron]

Well, what was the arc of you getting hold of this movie? Well, the weird thing is, is that the main guy that Nicholas Hoult plays, you know, he's not an unusual character for you to explore, you know, other than he had a purpose. Well, I guess the guy in Snowtown had a purpose, and it wasn't that dissimilar. He was not part of a movement, but he was a moral arbiter or saw himself as somebody who was acting in a moral way. Right.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah. I mean, I'm fascinated by those characters that come into communities and straight away actually almost don't talk. They just sit there and listen. Yeah, they just sort of sit there and empower and listen and, you know, really create a barbecue for people to kind of stand around and think I belong to something.

[Marc Maron]

Vulnerable people.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Lost people.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah. Outliers and traumatized people. Yeah. And. And those that sort of desperately want family, you know, Desperately want. And that was what was fascinating about Snowtown. I mean, it really was like a western. A guy comes in to a community that's being terrorised by a group of pedophiles where no one's doing anything about it, and he comes in and he solves the problem. And then, you know, within the first 10, 15 minutes, you're going, oh, all right. So he's the good guy. The good guy just happens to be, you know, a serial killer.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, yeah.

[Justin Kurzel]

Bad guy. Yeah. And it always fascinated me that, like, how someone can come in. And that John Bunting character in Snowtown was very unusual. Serial killer. He was social. He wasn't a hermit. People knew him. He was very visible. So the real guy. Yeah, the real guy. And I thought, you know, with Bob Matthews, there was something very reaching about that character. You know, he was, you know, he didn't smoke, he didn't drink alcohol. He was incredibly fit. There was. They had an energy about him that was, you know, obviously engaging, but there was a very strong sense of sort of. Yeah. Leadership in a way. And purpose. Purpose and a feeling of, this is my community, this is my family, and we'll build from here.

[Marc Maron]

Well, the interesting thing about, like, Snowtown is that was, like, the way you characterize it, that this was a town being terrorized by pedophiles. Was it any. I don't have a sense of the scope of the town, necessarily. Was it in your mind Were there more pedophiles than any usual city?

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah, there were in this particular kind of part of the area and also people within authority. There was a sort of corruption that was sort of happening there as well. And no one was sort of listening to this particular community. It was very disenfranchised. I actually grew up very close to the area, which is why I became involved in it.

[Marc Maron]

How old were you when the murders happened?

[Justin Kurzel]

I would have been sort of late teens. But then there was sort of. There were other serial killings that had happened in Adelaide even before that when. And one quite famous sort of group called the Family Murders that happened when I was very young, sort of 12, 13. So there was always sort of something out there where I was living. The possibility of being taken, like, off the street was something that always sort of haunted us. But really. Yeah, yeah, it had a very, very strange vibe. And this particular group, these particular murders, so much of it was about this sort of disenfranchised community and about how easy it was for John to kind of exploit these kids and exploit this family. It was interesting speaking to some of the relatives of the family, sort of saying, you know, their life actually kind of changed when John was arrested, you know, because some of these people involved were kids at the time. And after that they were put into sort of foster homes and, you know, terrible things sort of happened to them. So, you know, I guess I've been fascinated by this sort of feeling of the exploitation of a community and what are people looking for in terms of that sense of security and that.

[Marc Maron]

You think that started around those murders or around your childhood?

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah, yeah. I was. I was, you know, always surrounded by also men, like really interesting kind of role models. We had some really, you know, very powerful kind of role models that were around the community that were mostly men and, you know, quite positive, but you also knew there was some bad stuff about them. So it was, you know, really, really interesting time.

[Marc Maron]

But was it desolate? I mean, like. Because I get the sense even in Nitram, you know, that town, you know, it seemed. It seemed kind of broken and spread out a bit. Like, you don't get. I didn't get a sense of place other than there was sort of a certain amount of poverty and, you know, lower class desperation, but not so much in Nitram. But I still didn't like when he goes to buy the gun in that movie, you know, like, that guy, that's a good example. He seemed like a good guy.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah, well, Nitram and Snowtown were Two very, very different places in Australia. Snowtown was in South Australia and it was in quite a desolate area. A lot of sort of trust homes, very economically poor.

[Marc Maron]

Was that what the projects, Trust homes?

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So really interesting area, Elizabeth, where it was filmed. A lot of English migrants. And actually ACDC came out of that kind of. And cold chisel and a lot of really interesting kind of music because you had a lot of people come from Liverpool and so forth. So there was. It was a very.

[Marc Maron]

They came from Scotland, right?

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

ACDC's folks.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah, but it was. It was sort of Scotland, England. And where'd your folks come from? Poland.

[Marc Maron]

They immigrated there.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

For what reason?

[Justin Kurzel]

Was after the war, everyone was leaving.

[Marc Maron]

So everything was blown up.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah. So a lot of immigrants went there to kind of build the highways and build the, you know, the water pipes that went from the Murray river into the city.

[Marc Maron]

So what'd your dad do?

[Justin Kurzel]

He was. He worked on the highways and he was a taxi driver and he was also a meat inspector. He's working class. And he kind of looked after, you know, didn't go to school and looked after the other six kids in the family.

[Marc Maron]

You got six brothers and sisters?

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah, he was. He had a lot of family, those looking after.

[Marc Maron]

And your mom was there too?

[Justin Kurzel]

No, Mum was in. In the Barossa Valley. Those two sort of met up obviously later on. But. Yeah, so it was. It was a really unusual place. Really interesting groups of sort of people, but very, very poor. And then sort of over time it became, you know, a very disadvantaged kind of place. Whereas. Whereas Nitram, that is set in Tasmania, where actually I live now on a island down the bottom of Australia. And it was sort of based on the Port Arthur murders, one of the biggest mass shootings that Australia ever had in 1996 in Tasmania. So quite different place and quite different area, class wise. Yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Tasmania is sort of like.

[Justin Kurzel]

Tasmania's actually really beautiful and, you know, extremely. Has an extraordinary kind of history. A lot of Australia's first convicts went to Tasmania in terms of penal colonies and so forth. And parts of Hobart are like kind of Scotland. It's very cultured and very beautiful. So quite different kind of stories in different kind of areas.

[Marc Maron]

But that's not where you grew up. You grew up.

[Justin Kurzel]

I grew up near Elizabeth. Near Snowtown. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And how do you get out? I mean, it sounds like your parents were not. He was a middle class guy. Working class, anyway.

[Justin Kurzel]

Working class.

[Marc Maron]

But things were taken care of. You guys did all right. You made it by. You had love in the house and whatnot.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah, yeah. No, it was. No, we had a very loving family. We were very sport orientated, I think, my brother and I. Who does the music in the films? Composer.

[Marc Maron]

All the movies.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, he's good.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah. Yeah. Jed and I.

[Marc Maron]

Interesting.

[Justin Kurzel]

Jed and I sort of lived, you know, had. Had a lot of space and we kind of. We did a lot of sport and, you know, our. Our goals were to become. To win Winbleton. Like we wanted to be tennis players. Tennis players, yeah. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But the art must have been bubbling up if he's playing guitar. And when do you start to really, you know, come upon the. The vision to be involved with film?

[Justin Kurzel]

Look, I think it was my father taking me to see Rocky for the first time. 1, 2 and 3. And then VHS started to happen. Video stores really started to go. I remember getting the first beta kind of video recorder and that was it. I mean, it was like eight a week. And, you know, going through them and sort of building them up that way.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And. But like, it just seems like there's a darkness to Australia that I didn't. I don't. I didn't register. But I have been there a few times, you know. But some of the movies that have come out of there, there's a sort of menace to some of the filmmakers. I don't know who made Chopper, but that's that guy.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah. Andrew Dominique made Chopper. Amazing filmmaker.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And then the guy who made the Stranger.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yep.

[Marc Maron]

What's that guy's name?

[Justin Kurzel]

Yep. Tom. He's. He's a really interesting new Australian filmmaker. I mean, it's. It, there's a.

[Marc Maron]

Animal. What's the animal?

[Justin Kurzel]

Animal kingdom.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. What's.

[Justin Kurzel]

Who's that?

[Marc Maron]

Geez, man.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah. No, there's a really. Jennifer Kent, who made the Babadook.

[Marc Maron]

There's.

[Justin Kurzel]

There's a. There, look, there's. It's a. You know, it can be quite a dark place, Australia. It's, you know, there's a history there that's dark and I think of all different kinds, right? Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I mean, in its origin.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Where the people came from. The first wave was. They were. They were convicts, right?

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah. Well, in Tasmania, you know, many parts of Australia, there was a sort of genocide, you know, of the Aboriginal people indigenous in Australia. So there's a lot of history that, you know, still needs to be sort of faced.

[Marc Maron]

So it's haunted a bit.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah. And it's. And it's. It's just got a. It's just got Something about it that always sort of sits there. And I think a lot of really interesting filmmakers have sort of delved into that, you know, I mean, even Ted Ochiff, who Kotcheff, who made First Blood, Canadian filmmaker, when made a very, very famous film in Australia called Wake in Fright. Yeah, that was sort of a terrifying film that made an imprint on a lot of Australian directors.

[Marc Maron]

And then there's that older generation. Is it what, Peter Weir's from there, right?

[Justin Kurzel]

Peter Weir, yeah. You know, Gallipoli was one of the most, you know, incredible. I mean, it's my favorite film.

[Marc Maron]

Is it?

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah, it was very impactful.

[Marc Maron]

Isn't Breaker Morant in Australia?

[Justin Kurzel]

Breaker Morant, yeah. Bruce Beresford. Yeah, there was that. There was that sort of new wave around that time of Fred Skepsey and Bruce Beresford who didn't walk. Walkabout is Nicholas Rogue.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Was he Australian? He's British, wasn't he?

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But walkabout to Australian movie.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Amazing, amazing film. So, yeah, it's a really strong history. But there is this sort of underbelly there that I think filmmakers are fascinated.

[Marc Maron]

And also there's this underbelly too, like in watching Snowtown, that one scene when the two of them are in the hole, you know, smoking weed, you know, and he's like, it's gonna be a bomb shelter. And the other guy's like, who's gonna bomb us? That there is a sense down there, when I was there, that there is. It's almost like there's a little bit. It's Irish too. Where it just sort of like, you know, it's its own place. It's out of the. It's out of the fray of global politics and there's sort of a kind of like. Like literally a sort of a down under type of personality where it's just sort of like, you know, we're fucking Australia. No one's gonna fuck with us.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

No one cares.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah, yeah. No, there's a kind of. Even the violence kind of comes out of the most unexpected ways there.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Justin Kurzel]

And usually it's to do with sort of humour. I mean, I remember when I was doing Snowtown, we were talking to a guy that knew one of. Knew the serial killer in it at a pub. And we were having a beer and he was really interesting and he was funny. It got to the end of the night, we'd had three beers and I said, I'm going now. And he said, no, no, no, let's get another one. I Went, no, no, no. I'm going, yeah. He said, just one more. And I said, no, excuse me, I've really got to go. And he says, I'll tell you what you're gonna do. You're gonna go to the bar and you're gonna buy me a beer, and you're gonna buy yourself a beer, and you're gonna come back and you're gonna sit down, you're gonna drink that beer. I went, okay. So when I went and bought a couple beers and came back and sat down and he sort of looked at me and stared at me and. And he said, yeah. Anyway, I was telling you that story about. And it's sort of like. It is this. It's sort of choppers like that. There are elements. I think Andrew just really got in chopper about how you just can't underestimate the turns.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Justin Kurzel]

The shifts. And they're very, very quick in the personality. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

It's menacing, man. I don't know. When I was watching, like, you know, Nitram, I. I was. I don't know if I could take it.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah, yeah, right.

[Marc Maron]

And I was like, is this Australian? Because I don't know, the sort of pace and it seemed like pretty early on you had sort of figured out your tone. Do you think that's true?

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah, Yeah, I did. I sort of knew what I was interested in and where to put the camera and what.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Justin Kurzel]

You know, there was a. There was a feel.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Justin Kurzel]

That I was fascinated by and still am. When I go back to Australia and have an urge to. To make a film, there. There's a. There's definitely a kind of feeling that I.

[Marc Maron]

What can you identify it? Because it's like there's. There's a space to it, but it's. It's. It's kind of. There's a menace to it.

[Justin Kurzel]

There's something to do with the domestic. There's something to do with family. There's something to do with that. That. That menace sort of just hiding behind, you know, the front door. Yeah. Or actually even the front door open and the menace kind of happening. But just down the corridor.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, it's.

[Justin Kurzel]

It's a. There's a sort of quality to it. I think there's also a very strange relationship that we have with landscape. I think that there's so much of it. Well, it is. And you're sort of in awe of it and you're driving in it and then suddenly you go left and you think, actually, maybe I should have gone right. You're Suddenly sort of stuck and you look around and it's terrifying.

[Marc Maron]

Really.

[Justin Kurzel]

It's just terrifying.

[Marc Maron]

Even with nothing there.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah, it's just terrifying. There's something about it that. That is equally beautiful and majestic and extraordinary and there's also sort of something terrifying about it.

[Marc Maron]

But it's kind of nebulous and terrifying. Yeah.

[Justin Kurzel]

And it's intimidating, I think the scale of it and the unknownness of it, you know.

[Marc Maron]

Do you use the same DP I used?

[Justin Kurzel]

Adam Acapor? Quite a bit. He did Snowtown, who also shot the order.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, that's okay. So I could see that.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there was. I used. And then I. And I use a couple others. Jermaine McMicking did knit ram, but I usually try to work with the same people. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So what was your first. I mean, Snowtown was the first feature, right?

[Justin Kurzel]

Yep.

[Marc Maron]

And the shorts. What were the shorts?

[Justin Kurzel]

I got into music clips. My brother started a band called the Mess hall, which was a. Which I was actually part of. I was playing the bass and then kind of got bored with the bass, didn't feel as though it was interesting enough and sort of said to Jedi, look, I think I'm gonna leave. And. And he said, well, that's fine with him becoming a two piece anyway. And they became a really fantastic two piece in Australia and you know, started to get some success and tour and. And I started doing music clips for them.

[Marc Maron]

Okay.

[Justin Kurzel]

I got into it through music clips and then I did a couple kind of little short films.

[Marc Maron]

What were they? Were they like dark?

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah, yeah, they were. I was definitely leaning in. Leaning into what would be become the features, dude.

[Marc Maron]

I mean, in fucking Snowtown, which is out of nowhere, he walks out back and the guy's just hacking up a kangaroo. Like as somebody doesn't live there, I'm like, what are they doing? What is he doing? He's just killing a kangaroo. And then I thought for meat and then it just turns out to be for nothing. Just to terrorize the guy across the street.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah, well. Yeah, well, just get rid of the pedophile across the road, right?

[Marc Maron]

With kangaroo heads. Yeah, and legs.

[Justin Kurzel]

But he didn't kill him. He didn't kill the kangaroo. In, in, in, in. In the scene. It was.

[Marc Maron]

Nobody was hacking him up. Was I wrong to assume that? You tell me. They just found two kangaroos on the road.

[Justin Kurzel]

You know, like, like it's interesting. I live in Tasmania at the moment and there is roadkill every.

[Marc Maron]

Every few miles.

[Justin Kurzel]

Every few miles. Like, I mean, it's. There's Sort of. You're always surrounded by death in Australia. And it's. It's sort of something that.

[Marc Maron]

Some animal death, mostly. Yeah.

[Justin Kurzel]

There's so many animals and. And.

[Marc Maron]

And there's a lot of kangaroos, I guess.

[Justin Kurzel]

A lot of kangaroos, a lot of.

[Marc Maron]

Wallabies, A lot of, I guess we assume. Were they wallabies or kangaroos in the kangaroos?

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And did you find them dead?

[Justin Kurzel]

No, we bought them. They were already dead. Yeah. Because, look, people eat kangaroo meat. It's a. It's actually a fantastic meat. Very, very lean.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Justin Kurzel]

Imagine it's like.

[Marc Maron]

Do they farm them?

[Justin Kurzel]

No, there's so many around.

[Marc Maron]

Really?

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah. And, you know, they get to certain numbers, especially when the droughts happen when they come. Oh, so it's like deer. Yeah. So you've got to, you know, to a certain extent, you've got to cull them.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And what do you think? Like, you know, in all the movies that I mentioned. Because, like, for me, because, you know, I guess I'm kind of engaged with psychological language. Like in Snowtown, like they're, you know, you're watching clearly traumatized people, like broken people that are legacy trauma. But I would assume that in shooting this or in engaging with these characters, that that's not how you approach them. You approach them as who they are and this is their behavior. I mean, there's. I don't know, as a director who kind of deals in this type of psychological investigation, do you judge them?

[Justin Kurzel]

I just try to find what feels familiar, like as a character and as a sort of human. I mean, it was interesting. So Daniel, who played John Bunting in Snowtown.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Justin Kurzel]

He was a Sydney actor who was coming and I wanted him to sort of live in the area for a good sort of six weeks before we. We shot. Because the rest of the people in Snowtown are people that we just cast off the streets. They're non actors. So, you know, I was going to shopping centers, so they probably knew the guy. Some did.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah. And actually we would have, you know, auditions and people would line up at the gym. And I remember one particular guy saying, oh, does John know you're doing this? I was just in prison with him a couple of weeks ago. So there was. There was, you know, it was not many decorations, Separation. But Daniel, who was playing John Bunting, I said, you gotta be in this neighbourhood for six weeks and you've gotta get out there. And I gave him a certain number of things to kind of do, but he just sat in his room reading books. About serial killers and putting post it notes up everywhere and wouldn't go out. And, you know, that was, you know, we had a very big discussion about this guy. Like, you've gotta get past the kind of cliche of the serial killer. What, what is interesting about this person is that they're social and, and, and actually the, the FBI came to Australia and came to South Australia, studied this particular character because he was very unusual in terms of how social he was as, as a, as a psychopath, as a serial killer. So as soon as, you know, as soon as I spoke to Daniel about, you've, you know, you've got to take these kids camping that are in the film. You've got to kind of cook for everyone. You've got to. He turned up on set after doing all these sort of, you know, little kind of tasks, and straight away everyone just sort of, you know, came up to him and gravitated towards him. The kids were jumping over him and there was, there was. Sometimes it's as simple as that. It's about how do you, how do you make this person feel human?

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Justin Kurzel]

You know, and how do the people around that character sort of see them as human and see them as sort of almost quite normal?

[Marc Maron]

Sure.

[Justin Kurzel]

And that's when it becomes interesting. That's where you're sort of rubbing up against the largeness of their actions next to the kind of, wow, they don't feel too distant from.

[Marc Maron]

Right. And also. But I thought what was fascinating about that movie and in all the movies really, is that even once the people around them get a sense that they're off in perhaps an uncontrollable and murderous way, they make exceptions, they rationalize or they see them how they're gonna see them. You know, that happens in the order a bit, but there's an ideology there. But it happened in Nitra with his parents and with Helen, and it happened in Snowtown with the mother who, who knew better. I mean, right away, you know, her instincts are solid because of the guy across the street, but yet she still accepts this guy with that intuition, you know, knowing that, you know, he's bad fucking news.

[Justin Kurzel]

Well, that's. I mean, that seems. I mean, the evil was like a slow boil. You don't realize that it's. That it's kind of cooking.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Justin Kurzel]

And I think there is a sort of. There's a moment where it's almost too late.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Justin Kurzel]

And I think that that's what I find so compelling about those characters.

[Marc Maron]

And then what makes you go to Macbeth after that? I mean, are you a Shakespeare guy?

[Justin Kurzel]

Well, my. I first started off in theatre. I was a theatre designer and so I spent a lot of time in theatre and in rehearsal rooms. And I actually designed it when I was sort of just out of school. So it was out of the blue. I'd seen Michael in a couple films that I really loved. And the idea of Michael kind of playing Macbeth and there was something about the way it'd been written was like a Western.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Justin Kurzel]

And we were shooting in Scotland in those areas that were sort of set and written where you look out and you go, there are witches here.

[Marc Maron]

Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Justin Kurzel]

That landscape is sort of saying so much with the. With the verse, so. And there was something also about this sort of post trauma of a soldier and being able to put on screen this sense of battle and how that carries on into a kind of psychosis and the death of this child and how perhaps grief could turn into ambition. There were a whole lot of little things there, but essentially it was just that, oh, wow, I can totally see this as a Western. And I get to shoot in Scotland. And there's something. There was also sort of something about the idea of being consumed by evil and what that is. And do you become the thing that you kind of, you know.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Justin Kurzel]

So it was kind of reach for.

[Marc Maron]

It's almost like Shakespeare gave you a map to explore the type of male character you were already interested in.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah, yeah. Like, strangely on set, I didn't think it was a huge leap from what was happening in Snowtown, to be honest. It was just a completely different genre.

[Marc Maron]

Right. But I guess that's. That's why, you know, I have a hard time with Shakespeare. But I think that, you know, the people that really get something out of it are the people that realize the, you know, humanity, the full spectrum of humanity available in almost every one of the plays. Right?

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So Macbeth was definitely a character, you know, up your alley.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah, definitely. It wasn't too far away from what, you know, what I was interested in.

[Marc Maron]

And you thought of it as a Western. Are you a Western guy? Are those the movies that have the most impact on you?

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah, yeah, they were. They were very strong in, In. In. In my childhood.

[Marc Maron]

Like, which ones?

[Justin Kurzel]

Well, I'll tell you what. The. The western that I loved the most was Mad Max. Like, that was for sure. That was the. The one that I think for most Australians kind of captured my imagination.

[Marc Maron]

But you do. But is that a common thing to frame it as a Western Mad Max? Yeah.

[Justin Kurzel]

No, I mean, it doesn't have horses in it, but it's got some.

[Marc Maron]

But no, structurally, you know, the guy coming.

[Justin Kurzel]

Oh, totally.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Yeah, I get it.

[Justin Kurzel]

Totally. I mean, I would even say Snowtown, the way John rides in on a motorbike into that town.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Justin Kurzel]

You know, there's sort of Western traits to it. I mean, even the order.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Justin Kurzel]

There's a kind of, you know, Jude driving his car into that place.

[Marc Maron]

But those are, those are, you know, motifs. Those are the designators of Westerns.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah. But you don't have to do much with them to make an audience go, ah, like, great. I feel this and I understand it. And then you start to invert it and you start to kind of play with it.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Well, I don't know that the audience is necessarily thinking this is a Western, but the structure is so ingrained in the, you know, the cultural understanding of film that those story arcs are, you know, they hit a place.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, were you a fan of westerns?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. I mean, it came. There came a time where I needed to sort of, you know, understand, you know, film intellectually. And, you know, Westerns are a huge part of that. And I believe, as you do, that a good many films are structurally Westerns.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And that the idea that the director is playing with is, you know, this guy comes into town to straighten things out or to make a mess.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But like, you know, I've watched some westerns a lot. You know, the Searchers and, you know, and, you know, the, the standard ones. Shane. And, you know, some of the. I, you know, it's weird. I. One Western that really strikes me, a modern Western, like, I can watch the Unforgiven anytime because that, to me, that just loaded it all in there. And that character. But the Pale Rider, that's like a classic structure and it's awesome. You know, the guy with the shady past, you know, Jeremiah Johnson, that's another one that I watched that I don't know that I thought of as a Western. But it is. It's a very unique Western.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah. Jude and I talked a lot about. More about that lead character of a Western that there's very little that you actually know because in the order, there was not a huge amount of kind of subtext to that character. You didn't understand.

[Marc Maron]

But you did understand this sort of kind of beat up detective.

[Justin Kurzel]

Absolutely.

[Marc Maron]

And what that entails from movies.

[Justin Kurzel]

Absolutely. And there was. And there's that lovely feeling of, is this character even gonna make it through the film?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Justin Kurzel]

You know, that sure. They seem so kind of failed in a way.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Justin Kurzel]

And there's this lovely kind of rooting for them that you kind of realize, okay, if they've made it halfway through the film, then I guess they're gonna make it to the end.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Justin Kurzel]

That I think's kind of wonderful about. And, you know. And I remember, you know, something like the French Connection. You sort of look at that Gene Hackman character, and really the character evolves within the scenes. Sure. It's how that character responds to what is coming towards them in the present of the scenes, rather than a whole lot of expositions. So I think those characters are written less now. I think there's this sort of feeling at the moment when you read screenplays of trying to kind of understand as much as possible about everything, including your lead character. Whereas I think when you go back and you watch those films, it's the mystery of that character that makes them so.

[Marc Maron]

Less words are the better. Yeah. And once. And once Popeye Doyle gets obsessed, then the game is on. It's a whole different thing. Doesn't give a fuck.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

That the response to him shooting that fed is just one of the best moments in movies.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Where he sees him and then he just moves on.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Right. Like, you know, Scheider is, you know, like, oh, God, what'd you do? And he's like, I got to find the French guy.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

This guy had it coming, you know?

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. I talked to Friedkin for hours. It was kind of crazy.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah. He's. He's amazing.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Him and Michael Mann were just monsters.

[Justin Kurzel]

Of.

[Marc Maron]

The ability to have that kind of swagger with those movies and make the kind of impact that they did is kind of insane. Like, I've watched Thief a few times again, but he's another guy, not unlike you in a couple of the movies where the less said the better.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Because then it's on you, the audience.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

To kind of put.

[Justin Kurzel]

I just put the soundtrack, actually, of Thief. Just yesterday at Amoeba, Tangerine Dream. Yeah. It was there for. It was there for about $6.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Justin Kurzel]

I grabbed it.

[Marc Maron]

It's great.

[Justin Kurzel]

Fantastic soundtrack.

[Marc Maron]

It's the best.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Now, the. The Kelly Gang, the True History of the Kelly Gang, which I didn't watch yet, but that's a story that's been told over and over again.

[Justin Kurzel]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

Like, hasn't, like, every Australian filmmaker tried to tell that story. Yeah.

[Justin Kurzel]

I don't know why that character or that person.

[Marc Maron]

Ned Kelly.

[Justin Kurzel]

Ned Kelly has had probably one Hundred films made about them. And somehow is this sort of defining character that we all lean towards in terms of what our identity is or isn't. It's.

[Marc Maron]

And what is it about that? I don't know a lot about him. Is there, like, Jesse James here?

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, he was this Irish kind of. Yeah, this. This Irish bandit who robbed and created a rebellion in, you know, in Victoria and, you know, became this. And became very famous because he created this sort of suit of armor that was sort of, you know, from the helmet all the way to, you know. And at the end of the. At the end of his life was sort of, you know, was in this sort of Glenrowan, this sort of house. And this massive siege happened. And he sort of came out all guns, blaming, like, this kind of monitor.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Justin Kurzel]

And it was. Yeah, it was sort of mythical and sort of legendary. Sure. Somehow has sort of become. I mean, even in our Olympics, even at the Sydney Olympics and the closing ceremony, there was a whole segment about this criminal, an outlaw. There's like 100 Nickellies, like, running around in.

[Marc Maron]

Really.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah. In. In kind of armored suits. So.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah.

[Justin Kurzel]

You know, you can get Neckelly pies and there's Neckelly theme parks. It's a kind of fascination.

[Marc Maron]

So the reality of the guy has been eclipsed by the mythology of the guy.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah, yeah. And I was really interested in this. It's called the True History of the Kelly Gang, written by Peter Carey, amazing Australian writer. And the book is about, you know, well, what is the truth about this figure and why, as Australians, do we somehow kind of need to search for meaning as to who?

[Marc Maron]

Did you take him down a notch? I haven't seen the film.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah, yeah, definitely. He's definitely. I mean, it was really interesting, the film. And Peter kind of. They. They used to imitate the Sons of Sieve, which were this sort of Irish group that the Irish bandits kind of would dress in women's dresses to kind of terrorize the police and sort of make it look as if they were kind of mad. And that's what they thought was the greatest kind of weapon, was this perception of madness and sort of intimidate and scare the police away. So we've kind of got the gang dressed in dresses throughout the whole film. And it was quite sort of controversial. Yeah, yeah. Different.

[Marc Maron]

Did you get any pushback?

[Justin Kurzel]

Well, everyone claims this character for certain things, so, yeah, there was some that sort of looked and kind of obviously had a certain opinion about it.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah. You didn't piss off half the country.

[Justin Kurzel]

I'm sure I pissed off a lot, but. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Didn't Mick Jagger play Ned Kelly?

[Justin Kurzel]

He did. He did, yeah. Yeah. And, I mean, Dennis Hopper came and played Mad Dog Morgan, who was another kind of outlaw. There's a sort of fascination in Australian outlaws that seems to grab people's imaginations, especially overseas.

[Marc Maron]

Well, Irish outlaws are the most frightening, oddly. You know, you think it was the Italians, but anytime I see anything about Irish mob, I'm like, oh, fuck.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah. I mean, that. That. That kind of. I mean, it's interesting how that's traveled through filmmaking.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, that.

[Justin Kurzel]

That kind of, you know. You know, in a sense, that sort of chopper figure.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Justin Kurzel]

That Andrew was playing with has a similar kind of Eric Banner's chopper. Yeah. There's a kind of humor and a kind of outlaw kind of attraction. Has similar kind of Ned Kelly vibes.

[Marc Maron]

Sure. Oh. So that. Yeah. I was thinking that must be some sort of continuation of the arc. There is a certain type of. I guess the Australian cowboys a bit different than ours.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah. They're not as romantic.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Justin Kurzel]

They're a little. They're a little messier.

[Marc Maron]

So, like. All right, but let's talk about the Nitram thing, because that guy who played the lead is some special guy.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah. Caleb Landry Jones, who's American.

[Marc Maron]

I know. I. I think I've had the opportunity to interview him, but I. I didn't take it. Maybe it'll happen again. I just. I never know what. What anyone's going to be like. And I didn't. I hadn't seen your movie yet, but Jesus, man, that performance was crazy.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

How'd you get that out of him?

[Justin Kurzel]

Ah, well, he. He's just so immersive, Caleb. He kind of. I mean, he learned the Australian accent by. We had an amazing voice coach, but he. But he watched hours and hours and hours of Australian soap. TV soap, Neighbours and sort of this other soap called Home and Away. He watched hours of it from the 90s.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Justin Kurzel]

And just religiously. So he kind of. And he was sort of speaking with an Australian accent the whole time, which is a very hard accent to do, especially from. For America, although he's from Texas, so there's a kind of drawl and a kind of laziness that Australians have as well.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Justin Kurzel]

In their accent. No, he. We did that during COVID He came over, was in a hotel for two weeks, and then he came to Geelong where we shot the film and was in isolation there. So he really didn't see much of the. The rest of the country, apart from being in the kind of bubble of this film.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Justin Kurzel]

But he. He's quite extraordinary. He's one of the most immersive actors I've been with. He really, you know, the. The point at which he sort of clocks off and clocks on is very blurred.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Justin Kurzel]

And he always sort of keeps something there of the character. It was. It was pretty. Pretty inspiring.

[Marc Maron]

It's a relentless movie, dude. And that's your wife?

[Justin Kurzel]

That's my wife. Who plays Helen. Yeah. Plays Helen.

[Marc Maron]

She was spectacular.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah, yeah. She's wonderful.

[Marc Maron]

I mean, that was. That. That whatever. That was her empathy or the romance of, you know, having that guy in her home was really. I'd never seen anything like it in a movie.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah, it's a. It's a really interesting character. She was a. She was the heir to a Tetzlotto company. So she was a Tetzlotto, like a gambling. Like a lottery kind of company.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Justin Kurzel]

So she had enormous amount of inheritance.

[Marc Maron]

This is a true story.

[Justin Kurzel]

Right. Enormous amount of money.

[Marc Maron]

And she was eccentric.

[Justin Kurzel]

Eccentric. She was in love with Gilbert Sullivan and loved musicals and was sort of desperately sort of dressing up in various kind of costumes and, you know, and obviously terribly sort of lonely, but lived in this amazing mansion with much more dogs than we had in the film. I think it was like 50 dogs and 20 cats and. And she just took on, you know, accepted this boy who came over and mowed her lawn, and they sort of developed this very, very odd relationship and sort of promised to travel and go overseas.

[Marc Maron]

And so, like, the. You know, it's weird that. That turn in that movie when I hadn't seen Judy Davis in a long time.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And she's great. Always great. And I didn't even realize Anthony would put. Baglia was. Was Australian. Yeah, I think I kind of knew that, but I didn't know it.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And he was great.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I mean, the acting in that movie and it. It. It's. It's telling that it was informed by Covid because nobody was doing anything.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So the vitality of a performance during COVID is, you know, that's all you're. That's your communication for the day.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah, Right. Yeah. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But there is something so, like, in that movie where there's a turn of what should be heartbreak somewhere. It kind of gets hijacked by a certain type of mental illness. You know, like, you know, that car accident is devastating.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And I don't think that the character wasn't devastated, but I don't know how Much. It shifted from his regular disposition.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah. Well, I think he just became more and more isolated. There was a really interesting detail that happened after that crash where he was given the money in real life. Yeah. And inherited this money.

[Marc Maron]

And that happens in the movie.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah. And then he goes on these trips. So he used to do these trips where he'd buy first class tickets to different cities or all around the world.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Justin Kurzel]

And he'd get on and he would just look for companionship on the plane. So he'd sit next to someone and just talk their head off on a 23 hour flight to London, get to the airport, get off, go through customs and then turn around and get on another one and come back. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

That's so sad.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah. Yeah. It was this continual kind of revolving. Taking first class trips just to talk to people on airplanes. And that went on for like a year, two years, when we've just got one instance there where he goes to Los Angeles.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Justin Kurzel]

But it was this. It was this detail that I found kind of quite extraordinary.

[Marc Maron]

Well, what'd you key into that compelled you to make that movie? Do you get a script for that?

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah. Sean, who wrote Snowtown, Sean Grant, sent me the script. And it's a, you know, look, it's a very. I opened it and just went, there's no way I'm doing this. I live in this state. And. And it's a very taboo kind of subject. Very difficult subject to talk about in Tasmania, in Australia, anywhere. Yeah, it was, it was. That particular day was. Was really devastating. Changed the gun laws forever in Australia. It really shifted everything. But it's a, you know, really difficult kind of period to sort of talk about. So I was extremely nervous about it. But there was just a. There was just a. A key into how someone, you know, becomes an outlier like that and becomes more and more separated. But most importantly, it was just the. This sort of family setup.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Justin Kurzel]

How a mother kind of starts to see someone that they've given birth to kind of slowly fade away and disappear and desperately trying to reach them, to bring them back. There was something about that family unit that I, you know, I thought was. It was really compelling.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. The tolerance.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Especially the father that you, you. That despite the fact that the kid was volatile, you know, there. You. You want him to be all right.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But there's. And you adapt to them.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But they're. After a certain point, there's nothing you can do.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

To make them all right.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And I just, I'd never seen a Movie like, it really. How did that. What was the reaction to that movie.

[Justin Kurzel]

At the time that we made it? There was a really strong reaction against her. I remember the Prime Minister talking about it in Parliament. Really, this film should not be made. And. And I think people thought we were going to do a certain, I don't know, horror film or something about it. But also that it was subject matter that should be left. Left alone.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Justin Kurzel]

And then I think as people saw it and we finished it.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Justin Kurzel]

They kind of, you know, could see the sort of angle and the way we were sort of gently kind of walking through the film that shifted.

[Marc Maron]

Well, that. Well, that's interesting because nationally, I would imagine that there was no desire to have empathy for that guy. And, you know, because you, you know, you with, along with the writer, are careful to present as they are human, that there's no way in moments not to have empathy for that guy.

[Justin Kurzel]

Well, yeah, and I think, yeah, look, there was something, I think, also about those small moments that change fate and destiny. Like, it was sort of fascinating in the sort of moments leading up to the massacre of. I think he. I think there was one moment in the film where he stopped to sort of fix a car. There were a couple kind of tourists there that were. And he actually asked whether. Whether after he fixed the car, whether he could go with him on a bushwalk.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Justin Kurzel]

You know, he was going on the way to Port Arthur, you know, and they said, no, we want to go sort of by ourselves.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Justin Kurzel]

So he went on and then sort of, you know, went to a petrol station and then spoke to the guy at the petrol station, you know, do you want to go for a beer? And he sort of said no. There was this sort of really, like the fine line between, you know, what that fate was at the end to kind of him suddenly kind of going left and bushwalking.

[Marc Maron]

I feel like if it would have changed anything.

[Justin Kurzel]

I don't know. I don't know, but it was. I remember that was a really tough thing to balance in the film of, you know, whether this was a sort of set destiny. He decided this, and this is what he was going to, or whether it could be changed on a whim, whether there was some sort of little influence that would kind of just shift the tide a bit. But it was a real challenge to kind of try to find the right sort of feeling and tone for that.

[Marc Maron]

Well, I don't know that I've seen many movies that really do that exploration of senseless mass shooting, you know, other than Gus Van Zant's elephant.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah, Which.

[Marc Maron]

Which had the same space, but there was a. I think, a sexual component to that. Now, this guy, that. This guy Martin, your guy, obviously had issues, you know, that could not be sated. But the turn from just a guy who was distressed mentally to a killer was. I thought he handled it very well. And there, you know, the moment where he pulls that gun out, and then, you know, we're out of the movie. You know, after we hear what, a few shots off camera?

[Justin Kurzel]

It's. No, we don't even hear shots.

[Marc Maron]

You don't?

[Justin Kurzel]

No. It cuts then to the mother seeing. Having a cup of tea and in the news. The news just breaking. Yeah, it was. Yeah, we never. I mean, I think that's why there was a big uproar. I think they thought that we were going to recreate the massacre, which was horrendous, absolutely horrific. But we always knew that we wanted to stop it just before. Just before that.

[Marc Maron]

And did you. Did you ever hear from families or anything?

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah, look, it was, you know, there were families that were very upset about it being made. And, you know, and they. You know, rightly so.

[Marc Maron]

They.

[Justin Kurzel]

They. And there are. You know, there were others that we. We spoke to and sort of could understand why we were making it, but it was. Yeah, it was. It was a tough time making.

[Marc Maron]

Why were you making it?

[Justin Kurzel]

I just read. Just reading this script, I just got an insight into that isolation. And there was something about. There was something about that family that felt familiar. There was something about that mother and father that just felt, you know, this desperate need to try to love and, you know, try to bring that child back and the desperation in them. There was something about that that I really responded to.

[Marc Maron]

It's hard to humanize monsters and have to shoulder that burden.

[Justin Kurzel]

And like, you mentioned empathy before, and, you know, it's. That is a real challenge. Like how, you know, even with Bob Matthews, it's kind of like how, you know, where do you kind of. Where do you place this? Yeah, you've got to understand why he's. Why he's so compelling, like, why he draws people in. At the same time, you don't want to make this guy sort of likable in a way that.

[Marc Maron]

But you want to make him familiar.

[Justin Kurzel]

You do. You want to go past the kind of. The kind of cliche and really sort of try to unpack what is it.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And ultimately, Jude Law's character doesn't really get to serve the justice that he probably would have preferred.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, he misses It. But there was something about that character that sort of foresaw the future a little bit. Then somehow he was sort of looking. Looking into our eyes and understanding kind of what. What perhaps it would become, you know.

[Marc Maron]

And what are your feelings about that? Where's the. Well, first, like what. What is the future of the movie in America here?

[Justin Kurzel]

Well, it's. It's out now. It's playing now. It's. People are seeing it. Yeah, it seems to be doing well. So there's, you know, and I was. I was really curious as to what was gonna happen after the election.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Justin Kurzel]

But there seems to be, you know, this. People seem to be interested in understanding.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Justin Kurzel]

An event too that I think is hardly known.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Interesting, right?

[Justin Kurzel]

Shocking. Yeah, Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I mean, I became sort of obsessed with that whole. The Turner Diaries and the root of that.

[Justin Kurzel]

Did you know much about the Turner Diaries before the film?

[Marc Maron]

I did, yeah.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I don't know. There was like. I became sort of fascinated with that stuff around the time of when I was sort of learning about Berg and then learning that this book was driving a lot of the anti Semitic sentiment. You know, I became sort of curious about, you know, where the idea of Zog came from and why, you know, and then as you sort of get more into it and certainly now that these are reinterpretations, if not direct interpretations of. Of ancient anti Semitic tropes.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

You know, but I think that the Zionist occupied government was essentially from Turner. Wasn't it from the Turner Diaries?

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I mean that was sort of a revamping of a global anti. That was the creation of the global anti Semitic. The global Jew run planet. I think that started with that.

[Justin Kurzel]

Well, yeah, the whole book is sort of the. The fear of that.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Justin Kurzel]

You know, it's.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And those are. Those are relatively modern anti Semitic tropes that have really taken hold. But you know, blood libel and all that stuff that's. That goes back to what, the Middle Ages. So, you know, and that's in, you know, in Shakespeare. But. But yeah, so that was really the beginning of. Of, you know, whatever George Soros represents to these people. It's scary stuff now.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So are you doing a Hitler movie next? Is there like you can do a kind of a thoughtful Manson piece?

[Justin Kurzel]

No, it's. I mean, I'll tell. One that I'm really interested in doing is this film called Burning Rainbow Farm, which is based on two guys that created the Burning Rainbow Marijuana Festival. And it was.

[Marc Maron]

Where's that?

[Justin Kurzel]

It's down south somewhere. And it was in the late 90s, and these two guys are a couple, and they had this kid that they were sort of bringing up. Anyway, they were sort of trying to be run out of town.

[Marc Maron]

Two men.

[Justin Kurzel]

Two men. And their kid was sort of taken away from them, I think after a raid on their farm. But the festival became quite large. There were like 50,000 people turning up in the 20s to smoke dope and. And listen to Willie Nelson.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Justin Kurzel]

And anyway, their kid was taken away and they sort of burnt down the farm. And this siege happened over two weeks to sort of get recognition that their kid had been taken away and. Yeah, and they were killed in this siege. It's this extraordinary story, this beautiful kind of love story between these two guys, but also this amazing kind of event that happened like a week before September 11th. So it didn't really sort of.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, I didn't know anything about it.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah. So, yeah, I'm hoping to. Hoping to make that.

[Marc Maron]

Is it happening?

[Justin Kurzel]

I think so. Sebastian's doing it. Sebastian. Stan is gonna play one of the characters I know you had on.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, he's great.

[Justin Kurzel]

He's fantastic. So, yeah, that's sort of, again, based on a true story. And, you know, I seem to be interested in these certain kind of outliers.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And that's a good. That seems like a good one. Good arc.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Well, you look. You look healthy during the shooting. I don't know how far along I was there, but, man, you. You look tired, wired, smoking two cigarettes at a time. I was like, is this guy going to make it through this shoot?

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah, yeah. No, I made it. I got there, man.

[Marc Maron]

It was pretty intense.

[Justin Kurzel]

Right. I was worried I wouldn't even make it through that night where we went to the shooting.

[Marc Maron]

Driving around in that vw.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah, I was worried about. I was worried about you catching a plane in the morning, but I was also worried about you wearing old school squibs. Squibs. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

We only had two jackets. Yeah, we only had two shots at it.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah. But you were an absolute trooper. And we had to kind of get it. It. To get it, you know, pretty quickly. And the camera was on the cameras. It's quite a particular.

[Marc Maron]

That's right. We were up against the clock.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

It looked good, man.

[Justin Kurzel]

It did it.

[Marc Maron]

Disturbing.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah. It's got a feel about it that some. That. That we aim for. It was great.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Sticky stuff, that stuff.

[Justin Kurzel]

The blood.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it worked.

[Justin Kurzel]

But you were. You're amazing.

[Marc Maron]

I appreciate that. You too.

[Justin Kurzel]

Really, really love you being in the film. Thank you.

[Marc Maron]

I appreciate it. Yeah. And I. And I've loved watching your other work. I'm gonna continue to do it. Good talking to you, man.

[Justin Kurzel]

Thank you, mate.

[Marc Maron]

Love that guy. That was a great talk. I enjoy. I I There's something about Australia, man. It's heavy. I'm not sure what it is, but I'm glad we talked about it. I haven't been down there in a while, but there's a weight to it. The order again is playing in theater now. Hang out for a minute, folks. People, this episode is brought to you by progressive insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Shifting a little money here, a little there, and hoping it all works out well, with the name your price tool from progressive, you can be a better budgeter and potentially lower your insurance bill, too. You tell progressive what you want to pay for car insurance and they'll help find you options within your budget. Try it [e-mail] and now some legal info. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states. Hey, people. Another Mark and Tom show is now available for full Marin subscribers. This was the third time I sat down with Tom to talk about the stuff that me and Tom are always thinking about, Especially for an athlete. That's the hard thing. It's like you and me and people working in a medium that does not require physical talent. You can get better as you get into your 40s and even 50s or beyond. I felt like I should jump up and start doing squats. As we talk, I. There is something that in my mind, I'm like, what are you talking about, Tom? Look, I'm moving. I still got it. Yeah, but it's like if you're an athlete. Yeah. It's like you're. People talk about you being like. Like, oh, this like. Because I watch basketball a lot. And they'll be like, I'll be watching. Be like, look at that old guy out there. And I realize that guy's eight years younger than me. Like, who's this guy think he is? This old man hobbling his way out on the floor, eight years younger than me. He didn't even let him play.

[Justin Kurzel]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

It's just. But it's like he's an old man. Could you imagine being, like, unable to do the thing that every. That was your identity, you know, it's over for you at, like, 35, maybe. That's available now if you're signed up for the full Marin. To subscribe, go to the link in the episode description or go to wtfpod.com and click on WTF. And a reminder before we go this podcast is hosted by acast. Here's some classic Marin riffage Boomer lives, Monkey lives, La Fonda Cat angels everywhere.