Episode 1607 - Mike Leigh

Summary

WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1607 - Mike Leigh
Release Date: January 9, 2025

---

Introduction

In Episode 1607 of the WTF with Marc Maron podcast, Marc Maron engages in a profound and revealing conversation with acclaimed British filmmaker Mike Leigh. Known for his humanistic realism and innovative improvisational techniques, Leigh delves into his creative process, the challenges of independent filmmaking, and the enduring impact of his work on audiences and the film industry.

---

Personal Crisis and Setting the Stage

Before introducing Mike Leigh, Marc Maron shares a deeply personal account of dealing with the devastating wildfires in Southern California. He recounts the harrowing experience of evacuating his home, the anxiety of ensuring his family's safety, and the resilience required to continue his work amidst crisis. This backdrop sets a poignant tone for the episode, highlighting the intersection of personal struggle and creative expression.

Notable Quote:
Marc Maron at [00:44]: “These winds have been out of control. … I know people I know are okay, but I haven't heard back from some people.”

---

Introduction to Mike Leigh

Marc Maron introduces Mike Leigh as one of the greatest living filmmakers, praising his ability to create poetically satisfying windows into humanity. Leigh's films are celebrated for their portrayal of working-class individuals and the nuanced exploration of their daily lives, blending humor with pathos.

Notable Quote:
Marc Maron at [08:02]: “Mike Leigh is one of the greatest filmmakers alive. … They are totally special movies.”

---

Mike Leigh's Filmmaking Approach

a. Character Development and Improvisation

Mike Leigh elaborates on his distinctive approach to filmmaking, emphasizing the absence of traditional scripts. Instead, his process relies heavily on improvisation and collaboration with actors to develop characters organically. This method allows for a more authentic and fluid portrayal of human relationships and emotions.

Notable Quote:
Mike Leigh at [37:15]: “Actors are artists and it's about doing people out there and depicting them.”

b. Collaborative Process with Actors

Leigh discusses the rigorous audition process to find actors capable of embodying his improvisational style. He values versatility and the ability to inhabit characters deeply without relying on preconceived notions or scripts.

Notable Quote:
Mike Leigh at [34:11]: “Some people really get it, and some people simply, good as they might be at conventional acting, they don't get it at all.”

c. Realism and Humanistic Realism

Leigh's commitment to realism is evident in his films, which capture the essence of everyday struggles and interpersonal dynamics. He distinguishes between naturalism and the heightened realism he strives for, aiming to distill the core of human experiences without succumbing to surface-level representations.

Notable Quote:
Mike Leigh at [37:16]: “It's about realism, not naturalism. It gets to the essence of what's wrong, and it's heightened and dramatic.”

---

Discussion on Mike Leigh's New Film: Hard Truths

Mike Leigh introduces his latest project, "Hard Truths," which continues his exploration of complex human emotions and societal issues. The film, set in the 2020s, touches subtly on contemporary themes like the COVID-19 pandemic but remains timeless in its portrayal of human vulnerability and resilience.

Notable Quote:
Mike Leigh at [57:43]: “Quite a number of people said, oh, obviously this is a post-pandemic film. … But it’s not what it’s about.”

---

Art and Politics: The Role of Filmmaking

The conversation shifts to the relationship between art and politics. Leigh asserts the necessity of art in confronting societal threats and fostering empathy. He reflects on the power of films to influence perceptions and inspire change, maintaining that artistic integrity should not be compromised by external pressures.

Notable Quote:
Mike Leigh at [19:57]: “There has to be power to art now that can stand up to. Or is it necessary to think that way to the politics that we're dealing with?”

---

Challenges in Independent Filmmaking

Leigh candidly discusses the obstacles faced in producing independent films, including securing funding and maintaining creative control. He shares the emotional impact of losing his long-time cinematographer, Dick Pope, and the importance of collaborative relationships in the filmmaking process.

Notable Quote:
Mike Leigh at [69:57]: “Dick Pope… was an artist. And we collaborated in the most sophisticated way on the look and the spirit of each film.”

---

Future Projects and Legacy

Looking ahead, Mike Leigh expresses a desire to continue creating meaningful films, despite the challenges of aging and physical limitations. He hints at upcoming projects that may tackle contemporary issues on a smaller scale, reflecting his unwavering commitment to authentic storytelling.

Notable Quote:
Mike Leigh at [68:55]: “We are going to make another film, but probably on a smaller scale.”

---

Conclusion

Marc Maron concludes the episode by expressing his admiration for Mike Leigh and the invaluable insights shared during their conversation. Leigh's dedication to his craft and his emphasis on humanistic storytelling provide listeners with a deeper understanding of the artistry and resilience required in filmmaking.

Notable Quote:
Marc Maron at [76:47]: “What an honor. Just spectacular. … He was very sweet and just great guy.”

---

Final Thoughts

This episode of WTF with Marc Maron offers an intimate glimpse into Mike Leigh's creative world, unraveling the intricate balance between improvisation, realism, and collaborative artistry. Leigh's reflections on his journey, the evolution of his filmmaking techniques, and the enduring significance of his work resonate profoundly, inspiring both aspiring filmmakers and avid cinephiles alike.

---

Listen to the full episode and explore more revealing conversations on WTF+.

Transcript

[Peloton Advertiser]

Hey, sometimes it takes a little push to get you going in the new year, right? And Peloton can give you the push you need to keep you on top of your fitness goals. I'm lucky. I've got mountains outside my window always reminding me that it's time to go on a hike. But if you don't have that, you can have Peloton offering you a variety of challenging classes that can fit into your schedule. You can challenge yourself anywhere with Peloton's All Access membership. Work out at home, or take your favorite classes on the go and at the gym with the Peloton app. Find your push, find your power with peloton. [e-mail].

[Marc Maron]

All right, let's do this. How are you?

[Mike Lee]

What the fuckers?

[Marc Maron]

What the Buddies? What the Knicks? What the is happening? I'm Marc Maron. This is my podcast. Wtf. Welcome to it. It was touch and go today. I did not know if I would be able to do this because as many of you know, the state of California or Southern California or specifically the Los Angeles area is on fire, and it's fucking terrifying. I mean, I've been through this stuff before, and usually when you're out here, the fires are up in the mountains and they're. There are places where I'm sure, obviously they affect people, but in terms of being who we are, you think like, well, they're not near me, and. And now a lot of it's. I evacuated. You know, this morning was harrowing, and my heart goes out to all the people in the Palisades and all over California. It's just fucking crazy. These winds blew chairs off of my porch, and I knew that there was the Palisades fire. And I was trying to find out what was going on with that, if people I know were affected. Obviously they were. And I was just trying to monitor the situation because these winds have been out of control. And last night I'm going to bed, and I heard there was a fire out in Altadena. And I know people out there. I don't know how they're doing. I've texted some people. Some people I know are okay, but I haven't heard back from some people. And I don't know really how to reach out to other people, but that fire crept over and it was. It was really very close to where I live in Glendale. And they were starting to evacuate Glendale on the other side of the highway from me. And it was like. It just didn't look good this morning, you know, I was up at 6 and I was going to, you know, I guess have a day, you know, I was having some painting done at the house. I just had it rodent treated, so it's all sealed up. And now I don't know what's going to happen to my house. I don't know if the fire is going to jump over there and burn down my neighborhood. I don't know. I wasn't under a mandatory evacuation this morning, which is yesterday, if you're listening to this, Thursday. And I didn't. And the zone next to me was on alert but hadn't been evacuated. But I got up last night, I went out and did comedy. And we knew that, you know, the fires were going in the Palisades. And I don't know, you just some part of you thinks like, well, I'm just gonna. I'm just gonna do what I do, you know, and I'll be okay. There's this denial part of your brain which I imagine is survival driven, that you got to push back on constantly because, you know, I woke up this morning, I looked at the fire app and it was, it was too close for me to be comfortable. And last night a tree had fallen down across the street, and my entire street is blocked off one way because there's a tree across it, a large tree. And that's what's, you know, happening here. So this morning I'm like, well, I don't know if I can wait to be evacuated because I got to deal with these fucking cats, you know. Oh my God, dude, dudes, ladies, gentlemen, he, they, she, whatever, man. It's just been a morning, I'll tell you that. And so I. I only have one crate. If there is a transgression I have made in this situation is not having more than one crate. And then it's sort of like, what do I bring? How long am I going to be gone? Am I seeing my house for the last time? But all I can think about at that moment was these fucking cats and how do I get them into my car with one crate? And that was the sort of. Because you have to sit there and think about that. It's like, okay, maybe I can just go split and it'll be okay, and they'll be okay and I'll just check in with them later. But then I'm like, dude, they're your fucking cats and are you going to be able to just leave them here and hope for the best? And no. So I put Charlie in a crate. Not easy. And then I Had to grab Sammy and I had an old hamper, like a wicker hamper with a cover on it that I was going to throw away. It was on my porch and it didn't blow away. So I threw him in there and wired it shut. And then I had Buster and I had to go find a box. So I, I just had a regular box and I taped him into it, punched holes in it, wired Sammy into the hamper and put Charlie into the, into the one crate I had and then got them all in the car and immediately they all started and pissing. So my car was a kennel. And obviously there's part of me that's sort of like, well, I guess gotta, I'm gonna have to throw this car in the garbage. I'm just gonna have to drive this car into the, you know, whatever junk pile. It's gonna smell like cat piss for the rest of time. And you look certainly that's a concern, but obviously I was doing it to not think about what was at hand, which is where the am I gonna go with my hampered cat and my boxed cat and my other idiot? In a crate. We're all in a car and it's like just, you know, it smells like piss, smells like shit. They're all howling and I'm just driving my car and I don't know where to go. I don't have a plan in place. I thought, well, maybe away from the fire would be good. So that was the beginning of my day today. Yeah, this is happening. So I've got a lot on my plate right now. And as I'm sure most of you do, the new year is a busy time. But here's a suggestion to make life easy. If you need to set up home security or it's time for an upgrade to your system, use the home security experts we trust at Simplisafe. We've been using Simplisafe for almost a decade and they always provide the best, most up to date methods of protecting your home. Traditional security systems only take action after someone has already broken in. That's too late. Simplisafe's active Guard outdoor protection can help prevent break ins before they happen. They use state of the art AI powered cameras with live professional monitoring agents watching your property to detect suspicious activity. If someone's lurking around or doing something they shouldn't, Those agents see and talk to them in real time. Hey. Hey. Get away from there. Hey, we see you right now. Head to SimpliSafe.com WTF to get the best value in home security. WTF. Listeners can get 50% off their new Simplisafe system with professional monitoring and their first month [e-mail] WTF. That's simplisafe.com WTF for 50% off? Look, a lot of people have it worse than me. There's a lot of situations in the world, earthquakes, famine, war, that are much worse than this. But in terms of these things, in terms of trying to find safety or try to do the right thing in the midst of all this, you know, it's, it's, it's definitely something you should think about. And obviously I've always thought about fires and I've always concerned about it, but, you know, in the moment, man. In the moment.

[Interview Participant]

Wow.

[Marc Maron]

But I do have Mike Lee on the show today, and Mike Lee is one of the greatest filmmakers alive. You know, I, I watched a lot of his movies. I knew a few of them. Criterion had a lot of the old ones and there is such a humanistic realism, heavy heartedness balanced with, with, with a bit of comedy and with a bit of, of sort of pathos that is really the pace of real life and, and the heaviness of just day to day people's lives. And they are totally special movies. And I, and I can't really tell you how they make me feel, but it's been a heavy journey with me and Mike Lee in that I find them the most poetically satisfying sort of windows into humanity that I've ever seen in my life. And watching so many of them together, watching people's struggles and what they deal with, some of them mundane, but none of them different than any of our lives. It usually focuses on, you know, working class people in Britain and I don't know, man, it's just, it's some of the greatest filmmaking ever. And it was a real honor to talk to Mike and he came over and we talked a bit about his new movie, Hard Truths, and. Which I went to see at a premiere with Kit the night before. And it was really a tremendously rewarding experience for me. And now that I'm in the middle of, you know, what is my own kind of human crisis, along with thousands of other people out here in Los Angeles, you know, there, there's a, there's a resonance to it. You know, I'm taking, I'm trying to stay in my body and, and, and keep it together and, and understand that that human tragedy and human crisis is, is more so than not, if not always. You know, part of the human experience is the New film, Hard Truths, is his 16th film. And. And I hope you can see it or. Or go to Criterion and watch some of the earlier stuff. So back to the ordeal, you know. So I'm driving in my car that's, you know, just filled with piss and screaming cats, and I'm just. I don't know really what to do. And I realize, all right, it's just weird what my brain does. Like, I packed a bag, you know, for some reason, I packed a bunch of money. Like, I don't even know what that was about. I mean, it's not. The rest of the town is functioning relatively well. Bank machines are functioning well. But all I thought was underwear, socks, cat food, a wad of money and a water bowl for the cat. I don't know what that was about. I got the computer and, you know, my. My other stuff. My passport. I got my passport, you know, it was. I guess some part of me thought I was leaving the country or perhaps had to head to Mexico. I don't know what I was thinking. But it was not enough. I did not bring my recording equipment. You. Yeah, I'm recording. What's the name of the studio?

[Interview Participant]

Bad Ladder.

[Marc Maron]

Bad Ladder Studios. Thanks to some friends, Morgan McDonald at Bad Ladder Studios, who's Ali Makofsky's boyfriend? I just. You know, I just got a hotel 10 minutes from here. I'm. I gotta record, man. We gotta do it. So here I am doing it. But I went to Petco. I got two crates. I got, you know, disposable litter boxes. I got some more food, and I got a hotel room in Hollywood. And I put together the crates. I put a towel in all of them. And now all the cats are comfortably sitting in their own crates in a hotel room in Hollywood. And I guess I just waited out. And again, I hope yours. You and yours are well. And if not, I hope you're in a safe place. But. Hell of a morning. I don't know. I don't know really what to tell you other than, you know, I don't know. Did you get started on your health goals for the new year? Do you need a little motivation, especially when it comes to weight loss? How about this? The folks at Noom can get you started on a weight loss plan that's tailored to your individual needs. No two people are the same, and Noom understands that. They build plans that take into account your unique psychology and biology to meet you where you are. Maybe you have some dietary restrictions or medical issues that make some weight loss plans impractical. For you, but Nooma's personalized program will be more sustainable and less restrictive than other weight loss plans because it's your plan and they have a great app that makes setting your goals and following your routines extra simple. If you're like me, you'll get a lot out of the food tracker and the activity log. Track how much water you're drinking. Stay on top of the calories you burn during exercise. To date, NOOM has helped more than 5.2 million people lose weight by building new habits for a healthier lifestyle. Stay focused on what's important to you with NOOM psychology and biology based approach. Sign up for your trial [e-mail] but I am safe. My cats are safe. And you know, I've been dealing with a lot of anxiety in general. But it's interesting what a crisis kind of throws you into action and throws cats in the hamper and into boxes. And now I'm just like, you know, it was one of these, the wind is just menacing. I just really, I have no idea what's going to happen. And, and I, and I got to sit with that and we, you know, we had to cancel some interviews. Some people couldn't fly in. And another guy I was going to interview today, I just, obviously I left my house. I can't expect someone to come over to the house. But, but again, I, I hope everyone is safe out here. And you know, my heart goes out to you. You know, if you lost people or homes, it's just, it's just awful. And, and you know, I know I sound, I know I don't think I sound chipper, but I do think that, you know, I'm locked into a zone here. And it's amazing how much your brain, he has to constantly push back on denial because the part of your brain that's sort of like, well, it'll be okay, you'll be okay. It'll be okay. Like, I don't know, I don't know. I do know that I'm safe, but I don't know that I'll be okay. I hope so. I do hope so. My tour dates are what they are. You can go to wtfpod.com tour the Sacramento and Napa dates this weekend. You know, I hope I can feel comfortable leaving my home to go do those dates. I guess we're, you know, everything's up in the air, everything's fluid right now in terms of, of, of the fires. And yeah, so that's what's happening. Even by the time you hear This, I, I really don't know where I'm going to be at, but I, I do. Thank you for listening and, you know, I hope everything works out for me. And I do hope you enjoy, you know, this interview I did with, with. With Mike, because he's great. The new film hard truths, opens January 10th, and this is me talking to Mike Lee before the fires.

[Mike Lee]

It's funny, when I have British people over, I get into a panic about the tea.

[Interview Participant]

What sort of tea is it?

[Mike Lee]

I remember I had, I had Roger Daltrey.

[Interview Participant]

Oh, yeah.

[Mike Lee]

Come over once and they requested a certain type of tea. And so I go out and get it, and I'm ready and he doesn't want it.

[Interview Participant]

Well, there's a word for that. I mean, my only thing is this. When I ask for tea, especially in the States, I have to say tea, not Earl Grey. Right. Cause Earl Grey is fucking disgusting.

[Mike Lee]

Yeah. If you don't like that burger bergamot business.

[Interview Participant]

Absolutely. I was at the Toronto Film Festival.

Yeah.

You have a film crew in a room all day.

Yeah.

And people come and go. And so I went into this room to this film crew, and I was asked, do you want a cup of tea? And I said, yeah. Not Earl Gray. And the entire crew erupted because they'd been to England.

Yeah.

And they made a documentary about the way they make Earl Grey, too, with rooms full of bergam, you know.

Yeah.

And they were all. They had such a disgusting experience. They were so pleased that someone came in and said, not Earl Gray.

[Mike Lee]

Years of work dismissed rightfully. Yeah, I, yeah, I, I, I don't drink a lot of tea, but I have some nice teas. You know, I'm, I'm more of a coffee guy.

[Interview Participant]

Yeah. Yeah. Tea.

[Mike Lee]

Tea plays a big part in all of your movies.

[Interview Participant]

I wonder why that's. It must be a cultural fight of some kind.

[Mike Lee]

So, in coming over here, what have you been thinking about? What's occupying your mind right now? Because I'm consumed with the threat of fascism myself.

[Interview Participant]

Yes. Well, you know, this is the second time I've been over to. Third time I've been to the States in the last few weeks.

Yeah.

And of course, you can't help thinking, jesus, fuck, I'm going to America. I'm going to the States.

Yeah.

I'm going to Trumpland.

Yeah.

I mean, it's hard even to begin to articulate the worry.

Yeah.

[Mike Lee]

And I don't know how many people here, I get the sense that it's different in the European sense of what it really means, but Here, I don't know that most people have the depth to wrap their brain around it.

[Interview Participant]

Well, there's that. And presumably there's also an inevitable need to blanket and, you know.

Yeah.

To distract your eyes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's terrifying. It really is.

[Mike Lee]

It really is. And when you, like, in terms of like your like life, I mean, you grew up in. In fairly recent. It was post war Britain.

[Interview Participant]

Yeah.

[Mike Lee]

So it was rubble.

[Interview Participant]

I remember rubble.

Yeah.

I mean, I remember the war. Just. I was born in 1943.

Yeah.

So. Yeah, absolutely. But I mean, what you're talking about now is the massive leap we've made from a positive, optimistic, post war world to something that would have been unthinkable.

[Mike Lee]

Yes.

[Interview Participant]

You know what?

Yeah.

I mean, and it's happening. Everything's happening in the uk. I mean, you have this fascist outfit, reform, you know, I mean, it's, you know, it's terrifying. It really is.

[Mike Lee]

Because, like, when I think about. Because I've watched, you know, I've seen your movies throughout my life, but when I knew I was gonna talk, well, the Criterion had just put a bunch on there, which was great. Cause I hadn't seen those earlier ones. And then when I knew I was gonna talk to you, I've. I've watched, you know, a lot of Mike Lee in a very short time. And there's a weight to it, you know, and it is a. It's the weight of human emotion and tension and trying to just sort of make the best of what is on some level, if possible.

[Interview Participant]

Yeah.

[Mike Lee]

Now, as an artist, which you are. And you have a specific way of approaching it and you have a sensibility that has purpose. I get concerned because. And I don't know if this is the same way with you, that you put this stuff into the world that in its way, celebrates humanity. So is there a power to art now that can stand up to. Or is it necessary to think that way to the politics that we're dealing with?

[Interview Participant]

Well, there has to be.

Yeah.

I mean, you can't for a moment consider that there isn't.

Yes.

I mean, it's a non negotiable thing.

[Mike Lee]

Right.

[Interview Participant]

I mean, that's one thing. Yeah, that's the, that's the easy answer.

Yeah.

And it's, it's truthful. But it's, you know, the question then is, is it. Is what one does making any difference?

[Mike Lee]

Well, that's the other answer.

[Interview Participant]

Is it getting through? I mean, as I. Without being presumptuous, as I perceive it.

Yeah.

What I do. Which is never in any real sense polemical.

[Mike Lee]

Right.

[Interview Participant]

I mean, I don't make movies that say, think this.

Yes.

On the whole.

[Mike Lee]

Right.

[Interview Participant]

Which other very perfectly legitimate political filmmakers do.

Yes.

I don't, but I like to think, and I, as far as I can understand, as far as I can read it, it seems to be right, that it gets. Whatever I do get gets to people on some kind of level.

Yeah.

Be it emotionally or subconsciously or in terms of how they. I mean, like this current film.

Yes.

You know what's fascinating, apart from anything else, is the vast number of people that say, I know a pansy. I am pansy. My. That's my sister, my. My. My dad, my uncle, my auntie, all the rest of it, you know.

Yeah.

And all that goes. The rest of the iceberg, of which that is a tip.

Yeah.

So you like to think that what you do is making. Having some kind of effect.

Yeah.

But when you're then confronted, sticking to what I think you're talking about, when you're confronted by the relentless, crass, unsophisticated nature of fascism, which is generally sums up what I think you're talking about, then you say, well, you worry. I worry.

Yeah.

That. Yeah. Okay, so I'm making films, movies that permeate in one way or the other and affect people in different kinds of ways. But does it actually confront the threat? Yeah, but that's the conundrum. But there's nothing you can do about it other than keep on fighting the fight. You fight. I mean, you can't. You can't degenerate into despair. Well, no, that's true as well. I was gonna say, you can't degenerate into making a different kind of crass, black and white. Right. Unsubtle hamfested movie. Really? You know.

[Mike Lee]

Well, I think that what we did here in these conversations and also in my comedy, they're two different things, but in the face of the first Trump administration that we leaned into what we did, to explore and embrace the vulnerability of people and express the uniqueness of that humanity in the face of what becomes a monoculture of ignorance.

[Interview Participant]

Absolutely. Yes. Yes.

[Mike Lee]

And I don't know that there's. There's much else you can do.

[Interview Participant]

Well, there isn't. Yeah, there isn't. You have to do what you do.

Yeah.

With integrity. I mean, I don't want it to generate into being pompous.

Yeah.

And pious about it, but that's the bottom line.

[Mike Lee]

Well, when you started in terms of, you know, how much do you think post war England. And, and what that must have felt like influenced your young brain towards the arts.

[Interview Participant]

Interesting question. I. I grew up in a. In Manchester.

Yeah.

I suppose. Really, in a kind of. How can I put a philistine bourgeois.

Yeah.

You know, world Jewish. Yeah. And my. Because my dad was a doctor, a general practitioner.

[Mike Lee]

Mine too.

[Interview Participant]

Yeah.

Oh, really?

[Mike Lee]

Orthopedic.

[Interview Participant]

Oh, there you go. We lived in. In a working class area.

Yeah.

Of course, we were by definition middle class.

[Mike Lee]

Right.

[Interview Participant]

The paradox is that we, you know, I was taken to shows. I went to the movies a lot. I, you know, we saw the vaudeville pantomime. I saw Laurel and Arty live on stage.

[Mike Lee]

Oh. In that tour. Did you see that movie about that tour?

[Interview Participant]

Of course.

[Mike Lee]

Oh, my God.

[Interview Participant]

But I was 9. My mother took me to see them live on stage and they were disaster. They were a disaster. They couldn't get it together, you know.

[Mike Lee]

And you had seen the movies, so you were expecting something.

[Interview Participant]

Well, actually, I know the director and she said she wanted to put a scene in.

Yeah.

Of, of. Because I told her about my experience and. And Oliver Hardy lay horizontally on a park bench in a. A train station set and Stan Laurel sat at one end. But they couldn't. Hardy couldn't get it together. He was giggling and corpsing and it didn't happen. And they brought the tab, the curtain down, which I found fascinating.

Yeah.

And she wanted to put us. That scene in the film and they didn't in the end. But she was amused by the idea that they just couldn't get it together. Well, you know, but, but that's, that's.

[Mike Lee]

The humanness of the whole thing.

[Interview Participant]

Absolutely. But, yeah, so I saw, you know, music and stuff. Yeah, but, but always on the basis the idea that I would be an artist of any kind. It was anathema to my dad. Absolute anathema. Not least because my grandfather, who of course was an immigrant from Russia, he.

[Mike Lee]

Did you know him?

[Interview Participant]

Yeah, I knew all my grandparents and they were all immigrants. Yeah, yeah. Yiddish speakers.

Yeah, yeah.

But grandpa had been a commercial artist, coloring in photographs. Yeah. That old convention. Sure, sure. And he, of course, during the, The Depression, the slump, he couldn't feed the family.

Yeah.

So to my dad, being an artist of any kind meant penury.

Yeah, yeah.

And it was nonsense.

[Mike Lee]

Right.

[Interview Participant]

But I had from an early age could draw and was fascinated by movies and theater and all the rest of it. So it was an. The journey was inevitable, really. Right. But. But to some degree, and I think this is key to what we may be talking.

Yeah.

To some degree. It was a. Motivated and inspired by things that I saw, but as much as anything, it was a reaction to my environment, you know.

Yeah.

And of course, those tensions, those class tensions and all the things that are implicit in what I've just identified are there in my films.

Yeah.

[Mike Lee]

Oh, yeah. And the Jewish experience of that time, was there a community, did you feel? Was there an isolation?

[Interview Participant]

Manchester has the second biggest Jewish community in the UK and it's a very old Jewish community. Yeah. Oh, no, that was the world. And I was also in a socialist Zionist youth movement. The assumption was we would all go and be kibbutzniks.

[Mike Lee]

Right.

[Interview Participant]

And those comrades of mine who have survived.

Yeah.

We are appalled and disgusted and traumatized by what's going on.

[Mike Lee]

It's horrendous, Terrible. And do you. Do you still know those people?

[Interview Participant]

Yeah.

[Mike Lee]

Oh, you do? And you're in touch with them and they're.

[Interview Participant]

We're all horrified. Of course. I also know people that went and are Israelis and I have Israeli relations, in fact. Yeah, but that's another story.

[Marc Maron]

Sure, sure.

[Mike Lee]

So you started out with drawing. Drawing, mostly, yeah.

[Interview Participant]

Drawing and putting on plays, being in plays and.

[Mike Lee]

And this is in. Before you were in your 20s.

[Interview Participant]

Oh, yeah. You know, I. I left. I went to drama school in London at the Royal Academy of Dramatic Art on a scholarship when I was 17, in fact.

[Mike Lee]

How'd you get the scholarship?

[Interview Participant]

You'd auditioned.

[Mike Lee]

No. So you want to be an actor?

[Interview Participant]

Well, I wanted to find out, look.

Yeah.

You know, you're 17, right?

[Peloton Advertiser]

Yeah, sure.

[Interview Participant]

Well, if you want to get out of Manchester, you want to get down to the big city and, you know, but I. I knew I wanted to direct.

Yeah.

And make things up.

Yeah.

Which I'd already been doing.

Yeah.

But I trained as an actor to see, you know, because it was there and. And it was. I mean, the world is a better place for my not having gone on to be an actor. And I can act and I'm quite good in a way, but, you know. Yeah, I knew I wanted to direct, but I trained as an actor and it was important that I did. And I think that was the basis of, obviously, what I do is very much actor orientated, as you know, but.

[Mike Lee]

Yeah, that's for sure, because you create a space with, you know, all of your films, you know, and I was noticing it more, you know, that there is. There is a weight to the silence and for letting a scene unfold in a natural way that is, you know, counterintuitive to, you know, certainly mainstream movies are entertaining entertainment.

[Marc Maron]

Product.

[Mike Lee]

Was it theater or were there movies that encouraged you to, to pursue that space?

[Interview Participant]

Yeah, well, first. The first thing to say is, yes. From the youngest possible age up till 1960, when I went to London, I saw movies all the time, as much as I could, but I never saw a film that wasn't in English. I only saw Hollywood and British movies.

Yeah.

So when I went to London in 1960, suddenly, wham. World cinema.

Yeah.

In the first week I was in London, somebody said, oh, there's a festival, arts festival, and they're showing a movie. Do you want to come?

Yeah.

And there was this film where a knight is playing chess with the devil, a man. I mean, the Bergman movie.

Yeah, yeah, of course.

I mean, yeah, I mean, it was a blow away. And then, you know, Abu DHA Suf was playing shadows, started that set. Yeah, some thoughts going, you know.

Yeah.

And all of that. There was a lot. This is the early 60s. Yes, there was a lot going on in, in the opening years of the 60s while I was at this very old fashioned English drama school.

Yeah.

It's purportedly the best drama school in the world. It was very, very staid and it wasn't creative in any real sense.

Yeah.

But out there stuff was going on. I mean, we started to know what was happening in New York. You know, experimental things were happening.

[Mike Lee]

Yes.

[Interview Participant]

There was the work of. Also in, in England, in London, the work of Peter Brook and the Royal Shakespeare Company. This is to answer your question.

Yeah.

The first thing I directed at the Academy was Harold Pinter's Caretaker.

Yes.

Because I was taken with Beckett and Pinter and I. These things were a revelation to me.

Yeah.

[Mike Lee]

Well, I was wondering about Pinter because I've talked about him a bit before and I recently watched the film version, I think, of the Birthday party.

[Interview Participant]

Yeah.

[Mike Lee]

And there, there is a sort of a disturbing tension, but it all seemed really rooted in human relationship.

[Interview Participant]

Totally, totally.

[Mike Lee]

And I guess the plays speak to that as well.

[Interview Participant]

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. So there was a lot of stuff going on.

[Mike Lee]

And did you see Beckett's stuff too?

[Interview Participant]

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

I mean, I went to see endgame, I think 12 times or something.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Mike Lee]

Really?

[Interview Participant]

Yeah, yeah. No, no, it was, it was a, you know, all that was going on.

Yeah.

And then also, you know, being in London, I mean, the, the productions of Shakespeare and things were massive. And I did later in the 60s to jump forward.

Yeah.

I, I worked as assistant director. This is director at the Royal Shakespeare Theater at Stratford on Avon, working on the big Shakespeare productions and that. That fed into my, you know, the writer side of my, you know, I mean, working on Shakespeare properly. Yeah. In a sophisticated way was a very good thing for a writer really.

[Mike Lee]

And also, I guess, you know, given what was going on in the time to see it made fresh by productions that, you know, were active.

[Interview Participant]

Oh, absolutely. That was the whole point. That is it. They were not stayed old fashioned.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Interview Participant]

Received notion productions of Shakespeare.

[Mike Lee]

So you could understand the depth through action.

[Interview Participant]

Absolutely. And also about working with actors and all the rest of it. But I, in that early period in the 60s, I, I started to, I and one or two other comrades at the academy wanted to, knew we wanted to write and I knew I wanted to direct and I started to involve, just to get the idea that somehow you could write, you could make theater, make films. The writing and the rehearsal and the process could be combined and that the actor could make more of a contribution than just being an interpreter. And by a fluke, in the mid-1965, I got a job at a new arts center in Birmingham where they had a brand new, state of the art flexible studio theater. And I was supposed to be the assistant director with a company of actors. And when I arrived there were no actors. There'd been some kind of a bureaucratic thing and there weren't going to be actors for a while, but I was paid and I was there and they said, okay, well this is what you have to do. We've got to have an arts club for local 16 to 25 year olds who want to do some acting. Yeah, you can do whatever you like. And so I started to make plays improvised, so called misnamed improvised plays because that makes everyone think that they're improvised on the spot in front of the audience. Building plays using through improvisation. Yeah, and that really was the beginning of the journey that I'm still on.

[Mike Lee]

And these actors at that point. So you're dealing with a lot of people who are amateurs.

[Interview Participant]

Yeah, totally.

[Mike Lee]

And so completely willing to take the risks. I imagine that you wanted them to.

[Interview Participant]

Absolutely. Well, they didn't. They go along with whatever, you know.

[Mike Lee]

Because like it seems that over time, I mean, you got to find the actors that can do what you do.

[Interview Participant]

Yes, well, that's always the quest. I mean my auditions go on for ages because all I'm really doing with the auditions is sorting out the sheep from the goats.

Really? Yeah.

I mean you get very good actors and you say to them, okay, tell me about somebody, you know, and I'm going to leave you alone in a room for a bit. Just be that person, don't try and make anything interesting happen. Don't. Don't try and create a scene. Just be in character.

Yeah.

And it's quite straightforward. Some people really get it, and you come back into the room and that's all good. And some people simply, good as they might be at conventional acting, they don't get it at all. Basically, they need to script, they need to know what the objective is. They need to be performing and thinking about what the audience is experiencing and what sort. That's what I do. But you know what? I've been blessed, obviously, to see it over the years by amazingly talented character actors, people that don't just play themselves, but people can. Who don't play themselves, who are versatile and can play real people out there in the street. And that's what. That's what I need. Yeah.

[Mike Lee]

Over the course of watching your movies, I've become really quite obsessed with Leslie Manville.

[Interview Participant]

She's the record holder. She's done more work, more with me than anybody else. And you never see her doing the same thing twice.

[Mike Lee]

It's astounding. I mean, I just saw her in Queer.

[Interview Participant]

Yeah. And she's something else again. She does, you know. Yeah.

[Mike Lee]

That once she gets in that movie, which is, you know, the third act, it's a different movie.

[Interview Participant]

I know.

[Mike Lee]

That character was astounding.

[Interview Participant]

She's great.

Yeah.

But then she. She is one of a whole bunch of people, of course.

Yeah.

Yeah. And indeed, you know Marianne Jean Baptiste.

Yes.

Who does Pansy in Hard Truth. I mean, she's a consummate character actor, you know, I mean, like, you saw her last night. She's a very open, funny, intelligent, perceptive woman.

[Mike Lee]

It must have been an exhausting project to hold that character.

[Interview Participant]

Sure. But we're very, as I think she will have said, we're very disciplined about, you know, go into character, be in character, staying, but then come out of character. It's not method acting where you kind of become the character and live it 24 7.

[Mike Lee]

And you give them the time to make these decisions, to define that character on their own terms so they can get in and out.

[Interview Participant]

Absolutely. But I work with them always.

Yeah.

On how the process by which you can get into character and. Yeah, absolutely.

[Mike Lee]

And now, have you dealt with method actors?

[Interview Participant]

A bit. But, I mean, not to any. Not to a degree where I can report anything interesting about it, really.

[Mike Lee]

Well, that's the interesting thing about watching some of the movies going all the way back, is that there's a naturalism to it that, you know, you would assume that these people in their embodiment of the character, having been sort of learned about the method process, are so good that they are doing that. But there is a different quality of actor.

[Interview Participant]

It's a different thing entirely.

Yeah.

You know, I mean, first of all, talking in very basic terms, the main principle about method and all that that entails is that you find the character within yourself. Right now, we're not. That's. I'm not interested in that. I mean, actors are artists and it's about doing people out there and depicting them.

Yes.

So the actor is the actor and the character is the character. And in fact, if you don't do that, this is to sort of process. If that discipline isn't in place and in place very seriously and thoroughly and doesn't draw a line between himself or herself and the character, then, you know, you have an improvisation of an emotional and traumatic kind. You can't then negotiate with the actor and construct a scene because notwithstanding what you said a few moments ago, my films are not naturalistic. They're real. It's realism, not naturalism. It's not surface naturalism. It gets to the essence of what's wrong, and it's heightened and dramatic and constructed and distilled and not just ad hoc improvisational stuff. And, you know, to construct a scene, the actor needs to be able to be objective, out of character and then go into character and come out of character. A discipline.

Yeah.

Whereas if the actor is, you know, I am the character and I'm. I've just been through this emotional traumatic experience and don't talk to me, you know, there's no way in a million years that you can construct.

[Mike Lee]

To do what you do.

[Interview Participant]

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.

[Mike Lee]

And what you do is very specific.

[Interview Participant]

Absolutely.

[Mike Lee]

And when you. Because, like, oddly, you know, in watching the films, you know, I watched Bleak Moments after I'd seen, you know, 10 other ones. And the interesting thing about watching that movie is that it stands up as one of your best movies.

[Interview Participant]

Extraordinary, really, when you consider that it was made 100 years ago.

[Mike Lee]

But, like, that was like a template.

[Interview Participant]

I know.

[Mike Lee]

And I don't know. And even in that movie, you know, in talking about the climate you were growing up in, that you had these, I assume, left wing propagandists were taking up the garage to.

[Interview Participant]

To.

[Marc Maron]

To. To.

[Mike Lee]

To make their. Their ideological pamphlet. Yeah, yeah, but you don't. But you don't go into that. It's just. It is of the time.

[Interview Participant]

Yeah, yeah, totally.

[Mike Lee]

And. And when you went into that movie, you'd Already done some theater.

[Interview Participant]

Oh, loads.

Yeah.

I mean, that was. That was based on my 10th play. We did it in the theater and then decided to expand it into a.

[Mike Lee]

Movie with the same actors.

[Interview Participant]

Yeah. The same Call five.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mike Lee]

And also, like, you seem very aware from the beginning of the use of music as, you know, creating a whole other layer of the poetry of the thing. And it seems that the music has a tone and theme throughout most of your movies.

[Interview Participant]

Yes.

[Mike Lee]

Now, are these composers you use. I know there's some pieces that you've taken, but do you have people who score the film or do you do. Totally.

[Interview Participant]

Yeah, yeah. In the conventional way. You know, I mean. I mean, the one thing about the composers I work with is that because of the way we make the film, we obviously build the film and discover what the film is during the process of making it, right down to the last thing we shoot. So the composer cannot do what composers often, if not normally do, which is to read the script and have ideas before anybody shot anything.

[Mike Lee]

Right.

[Interview Participant]

I mean, as soon as we've got to the roughest of rough cuts in the film, then the composer can start looking at it and having ideas and sharing them with me and so on. And from there on, in technical terms, it's quite conventional, really.

Yeah.

But, yeah, I mean, it's interesting that you. You start talking about the music in terms of the music in Bleak Moments, there isn't a score in Bleak Moments, there isn't a movie score.

Yeah.

The. So that the music is all made within the action.

[Mike Lee]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

With the guitar player.

[Interview Participant]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dreadful guitar play. One of the ironies. A minor but amusing fact about is he sings When I die, Please bury me deep down at the end of. He says Beaker street because he doesn't know it's actually Bleecker Street.

Right.

And the ir. I mean, the joke being, of course, it was called Bleak Moments.

Yeah.

But the irony is that this current film is backed by. And more importantly, distributed by Bleecker Street.

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Full circle.

[Mike Lee]

Well, it was like. It. It was interesting watching that movie because I. The one thing I sense, and I don't know if. If you sense it personally or. Or when you're in this, is that. Do you get to a point with these characters where. I mean, there is a balance to the thing in terms of.

[Marc Maron]

You do.

[Mike Lee]

As heavy as they can get in terms of the pain of a character that even in this movie, through some editing, but also through the character arc itself, there are moments of. Of release of tension. You know, maybe not happiness per se, but there is. Seems to be a balance between, like, you know, if there was no moment in which Pansy in this new film has some sort of breakdown or moment of self awareness that, you know, what you have as an audience experience is something that it would be hard to walk away with.

[Interview Participant]

Absolutely. I mean, but you're absolutely right. Yeah. Far as I'm concerned, the moments that you're talking about, the moments, in a way, you could regard them as moments of complexity and contradiction as much as anything else, but they are, they are that release as well for the audience. Yeah, but they're not. But they're organic.

Yeah.

It's not a. It's not. I don't think now I've got to find a moment that.

[Mike Lee]

No, no, right.

[Interview Participant]

It comes out of. It comes organically and naturally out of as a function of what's going on, basically.

[Mike Lee]

Thankfully.

[Interview Participant]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, the same. What we're talking about now can also be applied to the fact that the films are, I think, both tragic and comic.

Yeah.

You know, but, you know, people say to me, well, how do you decide when to do, when to be funny when? I don't.

Yeah.

Life is tragic and common. It comes out of the soil like that, you know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But.

[Mike Lee]

But it does seem that there, there. I. I don't know ever what human moment we're going to go to black on, you know, and when, you know. So this unconventional ending that doesn't imply anything's over, it never is.

[Interview Participant]

Yeah.

And indeed, no, I mean, apart from anything else.

Yeah.

My job, whichever way you look at it, is to hand it over to you. The audience say, okay, now this is for you to go away and ponder, argue about, care about, forget about whatever you want to do with it. Really.

Yeah.

[Mike Lee]

Well, it's interesting because my girlfriend is a huge fan and.

[Marc Maron]

She feels, as.

[Mike Lee]

A person who grew up in the American working class, she feels represented by your films in a very personal way.

[Interview Participant]

She's a filmmaker, isn't she?

[Mike Lee]

No, no, she just, she loves your movies, but she loves horror movies as well. But somehow it speaks to her because, you know, she never feels like she sees herself in movies. Like she, like High Hopes is her favorite film.

[Interview Participant]

Oh, there you go. Yeah. I mean, I think that's important.

Yeah.

A. What I do first and foremost is I do not make films about films.

Yeah.

You know. Right. Plenty of movies are about movies.

[Mike Lee]

Even in. In terms of reference or.

[Interview Participant]

No, no, no. In terms of. Yeah. I mean, they're not. I mean, obviously I'm a. I'm a film watcher and a film and a movie buff. Yeah, but that's just. But the actual substance of what. I mean, I'm. I don't think about this Saturday of the movie when I'm making a movie.

Yeah.

The other thing is, you know, that again, with reference to your girlfriend's feelings about representation.

Yeah.

You know, it's important to me to, you know, to point the camera out there at them, which is to say, us real people.

Yeah.

I'm not in the business of heroes or idealized. You know, I mean, of course, you could argue the. The exceptions are that. Topsy Turvy.

Yeah.

It's about theatrical folk.

Yeah.

In the 1880s.

Right.

And Mr. Turner is about a. An artist. Well, artist is an exotic thing to be. But the point about those films, if you look at them in the context of all my other stuff, is that they're saying, okay, yeah, this may be in the 19th century, and, yeah, these may be about artists, but actually, they're vulnerable. These are vulnerable people, you know, with problems. Like you, me and him. Yeah.

[Mike Lee]

Well, there is sort of an oddly heroic nature to the Vera Drake.

[Interview Participant]

Yes, that's true. That's very true. But that's not. That's, with respect, confusing two different things.

Yes.

I mean, yes, she's a heroic. You could argue perhaps, that there are a number of heroic people in my film.

Yes.

But that's not the same as.

[Mike Lee]

As a heroic journey.

[Interview Participant]

Yeah. Yeah. Or indeed about, you know, making your characters, by definition, heroic. Received tropes, right?

[Marc Maron]

Tropes.

[Mike Lee]

Right. Well, it was interesting last night. We, you know, we had. Wasn't an argument, but, you know, but the moment in this new film, in Hard Truths, where the husband, you know, throws the flowers out that, you know, we had a discussion about that action and her sense of it was totally different than mine.

[Interview Participant]

There you go. Good.

[Mike Lee]

And, you know, I had to pull it back from an argument because there is no arguing. It's a sensibility. And my sensibility in that action, given that his son had given his mother the flowers, perhaps for the first time since he was a child, that, you know, what I read was that that character, the husband, may have had regrets about his life and that his relationship with his son was distant because of possible resentment because of the life that he had found in himself in over time. And she read it.

[Interview Participant]

She.

[Mike Lee]

And then when I said that, she goes, you need. I think you might need therapy. And then I said, well, what did you think it was? And she said, it was just A reaction to the action of Tansy's, you know, this human moment that was such a chore for her was not enough. And he was angry about that.

[Interview Participant]

And I have nothing to say.

[Mike Lee]

No, I didn't.

[Interview Participant]

I didn't think you would, because it's. So. It's for you and her to have that argument, really.

[Mike Lee]

But then she also saw the son, Moses, as being some sort of on the spectrum. And I thought that. Well, I don't know that I agree with that. I think he was denied love his entire life by a problem, a troubled mother, and that he was in a suspended sense of childhood, so. And again, you're not going to speak to that, but it does it. No, but these are the conversations, of.

[Interview Participant]

Course, and that's great. As far as I'm concerned, that's what it's all about, really.

Yeah.

[Mike Lee]

And when you go like, let's talk about the process a little bit, because in order for you to do what you do, you know, you make a lot of films, but you have a very specific way of working to get the collaboration and the. And the sort of piece of work that you do. Like, in general, when you start a story, what is the idea?

[Interview Participant]

It varies, but to a considerable extent, I would be unable to articulate what the idea was.

[Mike Lee]

Right.

[Interview Participant]

I mean, I have. First of all, you see, people say to me, where'd you get your ideas from? Well, you know, I only got to walk down the street and walk past 10 people and there are 10 possible films there. You know, that's to start with.

Yeah.

So, you know, in a way, at a certain level, it's. I could make a film about anybody or anything in principle, so.

[Mike Lee]

But it starts with a sort of empathy.

[Interview Participant]

Yeah, Generally, yes, of course. Of course I will have notions. I mean, it varies. I mean, as I. You heard me say yesterday, I with say Secrets and Lies. That was a very definite decision to make something, a film about adoption.

[Mike Lee]

Right.

[Interview Participant]

And with Vera Drake, it was a very deliberate decision to make a film about an illegal abortionist before the 1967 UK abortion.

Right.

But with a lot of my films, it's. I've got notions floating around. They're more a feeling sometimes than an actual concrete. Certainly. Certainly many of them have not had what you could call an idea in the Hollywood script sense.

Yeah.

So I will get together actors, and the deal with every actor is I can't tell you anything about it. There's no script. We don't know what we're going to do. We're going to discover what it is by doing it. And. And incidentally, you will never know anything about the whole thing except what your character knows. So that. That makes it possible to explore through improvisation. Truthfully.

Yeah.

You know, situations. So. So I work separately with each actor. I get each actor to talk about a whole load of people they actually know, you know, very randomly. And. And then I start to choose sources from those lists and we start to put them together and start to build characters. But the characters we create are a creation, obviously. And then we spend a long time building relationships through discussion, through some research, but mostly through improvisation, character work and all the rest of it. And I work with each actor on every aspect of the character, including physically and all the rest of it, language they speak and all that, until we arrive at the premise of the film.

[Mike Lee]

And what's that? How long is that process generally?

[Interview Participant]

Well, it's very. Usually it's been often about six months on this film because of the size of the budget and the size of the cast. It was only 14 weeks. But that's before we start. Then you. And of course, during that time, you're also sharing decisions with the production designer, the costume and makeup designer, and particularly.

Yeah.

The cinematographer where. So that I can share with the cinematographer and the designers a sense of the kind of spirit of the film and the kind of look. And we shoot tests and do all those things, which are all part of the collaborative process.

[Mike Lee]

So there's. It's a constant process of discovery.

[Interview Participant]

Absolutely. The whole way we make these films is to go on a journey of discovery as to what the film is. And in fact, at the end of that preparatory period, there's no film. I do a structure of some sort, and then we scene by scene, sequence by sequence, location by location, we will work without the crew. Build us, starting with improvisation, scripting through rehearsal. I never go away and write a script and bring it back until it's very precise. And then we're rejoined by the cinematographer and the rest of the crew and we work out how to shoot it and we shoot.

[Mike Lee]

So. So through this process, you're. You're scripting scene for scene.

[Interview Participant]

Yeah.

[Mike Lee]

And. And through the improvisations, you're making notes about moments.

[Interview Participant]

Yeah. It's more. Yes. It's more complex than that.

[Mike Lee]

Right.

[Interview Participant]

But during the preparatory period, what never happens is, okay, let's do that again.

[Mike Lee]

Right.

[Interview Participant]

But then when we get to the construction stage, we say, okay, let's re.

[Mike Lee]

Explore that which is on set.

[Interview Participant]

Yeah, yeah, it has to be on set. I can't build a scene unless I'm in the location.

Yeah.

Because for me, it's about place as well as character.

Yeah.

The interreaction of the. The character with his or her environment is part of the texture of what's happened.

[Mike Lee]

That's right.

[Interview Participant]

Yeah.

So, yeah. I mean, there's no. There is no such thing as doing an improvisation twice. An improvisation is an improvisation.

Yeah.

And you may do something else that starts from the same premise and may be similar, but it's another thing. So it's about a question of starting to do that and then gradually say, okay, let's stop. Let's take that. That's. Fix that. Let's swap that round. Why don't you say that? And, you know, until we arrive at something which is very precise.

[Mike Lee]

So on a day of shooting a scene, when you do a take, how many takes? Yeah.

[Interview Participant]

Well, the interesting thing is this, I think, is that because the actors are rock solid in their characters and their relationships and how to play the character and all the rest of it, we don't have to do a lot of. You don't get what you do get on many movies.

Yeah.

It's okay. Stop a cut. Sorry, I couldn't remember the lines. Sorry. Sorry.

Yeah.

Yeah.

[Mike Lee]

Can we go again?

[Interview Participant]

Stuff.

Yeah.

And stuff that. To do with insecurity and, you know, it's very disciplined.

Yeah.

And therefore, it's very, you know, you. We seldom. Unless there's something happens or a Lufthansa flies over or whatever.

Yeah.

You do the whole thing.

Yeah.

So we don't do a massive number of takes because it's rock solid. It's. I mean, what will happen on occasions, quite often, is that we'll do a take and I'll say, cut. And I'll say, okay, let's go again. And everyone says, why? Well, you want to go again for. That was great. And I go again because I know that there'll be nuances, subtle nuances in behavior, which will be a bonus to have in the cutting room, in the editing afterwards, you know.

[Mike Lee]

Yeah.

[Interview Participant]

Yeah.

But. Yeah. Now, what we take to the cutting room, to the edit, is pretty disciplined and organized. I mean. Yeah, it's certainly not the kind. There are two fundamental misconceptions about what I do. One is that actors are improvising on camera, which they nearly never. Occasionally, they might get the odd moment, but it's hardly worth talking about.

Yeah.

Very disciplined. And the other is that therefore, you know, the notion that somehow, because the improvisation involved, that it's like you shoot a lot of wild footage and then you have to go and work out how to make sense of it in the cutting. That doesn't happen at all. You know, it's. We arrive to the editor with a lot of disciplined stuff. Then, of course, since all films are made in the cutting room, that's the fact of life.

[Mike Lee]

Right.

[Interview Participant]

We all know then it's about organizing what we've shot. And, you know, you might lose a scene or swap something around or whatever it is and certainly find the best moments.

[Mike Lee]

So do you not have a full script until after the movie is shot?

[Interview Participant]

Absolutely.

[Mike Lee]

That's interesting. You know, I mean, it's not. It's probably unique to you.

[Interview Participant]

So they say. So I'm told.

[Mike Lee]

So is. Is the only reason. What is the reason for actually even creating a whole script after all is said?

[Interview Participant]

Oh, usually it's because it's got to be put in for. For an award or.

Yeah.

There are scripts that people have published and.

[Mike Lee]

And I imagine that over time, you know, with it, when you think about the first few movies, because of your age at the time that you're dealing with contemporaries and issues that are happening in your life and that must. Must have shifted at some point.

[Interview Participant]

Oh, yes.

Yeah.

I mean, yes. I mean, it's interesting because this is an interesting thing about hard truths.

Yeah.

Quite a number of people said, oh, obviously this is a post pandemic film. Post Covid. The fact is, in terms of what it's actually about, we could have made the same film 10, 20 or 30 years ago. Yeah. However, yes, it is set in the 2020s and therefore, by definition, you know, Covid's happened. But it's not. It's mentioned a couple of one and a half times in the film, but it's not. It's not what it's about.

[Mike Lee]

She's masked in one scene, I think.

[Interview Participant]

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

When she goes to the doctor.

[Mike Lee]

Right.

[Interview Participant]

But.

[Mike Lee]

But with her character, that didn't have necessarily have to be related to Covid.

[Interview Participant]

No, no, absolutely. Yes. Although. Well, it would probably have its roots in. In the COVID Experience.

Yeah.

But I mean, they're interesting things. I mean, there's hardly ever been cell phones in my film.

Yeah.

I mean, in as long ago as Naked, there was one scene where a guy is on a cell phone in his car.

Yeah.

Landlord, but. And that's before they were really even called cell phones. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Field phones.

[Mike Lee]

It was more a representation of class.

[Interview Participant]

Absolutely.

Yeah. Yeah.

But it's not really until Hard Truth that there's actually a scene where communication on a cell is Actually crucial to what's going on. Really.

[Mike Lee]

Because it's not, I would imagine, in. In terms of. Even with their existence. It's not, you know. You're not concerned with that?

[Interview Participant]

No, absolutely.

[Mike Lee]

It's. It's about human engagement.

[Interview Participant]

Absolutely, totally.

Yeah.

[Mike Lee]

But now, you know, to address it even a little bit, it almost seems necessary because I think that most humans engagement is through these horrendous devices. Well, I rewatched Naked two nights ago and I hadn't seen it since it came out, so I was a young person. What year did that come out in the 80s?

[Interview Participant]

No, no, we made it in 93.

Yeah.

[Mike Lee]

And I was like a different man. But a testament to a movie that, you know, is a real piece of art is that your relationship with it changes over time.

[Interview Participant]

Yeah.

[Mike Lee]

You know, because of where I'm at.

[Interview Participant]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Mike Lee]

Because I. When I first saw it, I remember I thought that character was annoying and somehow, you know, kind of pretentious. And now at this age I'm like, well, he's a guy with problems.

[Interview Participant]

Yeah. And wasted potential.

[Mike Lee]

Wasted potential. And also, like again, with my girlfriend, you know, she saw him as, you know, almost pre schizophrenic. And, you know, I didn't. I. It wasn't until the second viewing where I took a read that maybe he had a deeper mental illness than just his wasted potential.

[Interview Participant]

Maybe. But maybe he's just a victim of the education system. Maybe he's a kid. He's a bright kid and he can read books and all the rest of it. I mean, maybe he is a kid. That if he'd had a decent education.

Yeah.

Instead of punishing him all the time for. From opening his mouth.

Yeah.

They'd have encouraged him and stimulated him.

Yeah.

He'd have been a different. He'd had a different kind of journey, really.

[Mike Lee]

I saw that movie described as a dark comedy. Do you see it as a comedy?

[Interview Participant]

I see all my films as a comedy.

Yeah.

And the description of it is a dark comedy is not. It's fairly reasonable, I would say. I wouldn't necessarily use those words myself, but I don't object to.

Yeah.

To such a description. I mean, all my films are both comic and tragic.

[Mike Lee]

And when you deal with what was the. The moment where, you know, you're coming out of Career Girls to do that historical piece. I mean, what. You know, how do you make that decision?

[Interview Participant]

Well, apart from anything else, I mean, Topsy Turvy wasn't a film that he just made. Spontaneous. Yes. I mean, we'd been planning it for ages.

Yeah.

And mostly just trying to get the money, really.

Yeah.

But I. I had the notion for quite a long time to make that film, apart from anything else. Two things. One is that I thought at that stage it would be a good thing to turn the camera around on us. We who take very seriously the profoundly difficult job of amusing other people.

Yeah, yeah.

And. But also in a. More. More naughtily, my part, more cheekily.

Yeah.

I thought, okay, I'm gonna. I want to make a film that challenges the. Assume the assumption about what I do. Really?

Yeah.

[Mike Lee]

Right. So that was intentional.

[Interview Participant]

Yeah. Yeah. You know, I like musicals and I like Gilbert and Sullivan's stuff. I think it's great.

Yeah.

And, you know, I was brought up watching it.

Yeah.

And knowing all those songs and all the rest of it.

Sure.

But. And I was so fascinated by the Victorian theater.

Yeah.

It's fascinating stuff. So. Yeah, I mean, that's what it was all about, really.

[Mike Lee]

So was it. You were challenging yourself.

[Interview Participant]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

[Mike Lee]

And going into that.

[Interview Participant]

Did it.

[Mike Lee]

Did the weight of making a movie of that scope was that. I mean, you. It must have. You had to work a lot of different muscles.

[Interview Participant]

Yeah. I mean, they're the same muscles. Just worked on them, you know. I mean, it was a gas. It was tough.

Yeah.

But it was great fun, you know, it was good. And, you know, all those actors that were in it, even the ones. All the ones in the chorus.

Yeah.

They were all proper actors who could sing. And we used all. All the techniques and things which we've been talking about to bring it all to life, you know, and make it all happen.

[Mike Lee]

And you found the heart of the humanity of each one of those actors. And in terms of capturing Victorian England, I guess, you know, enough of the structures were still around.

[Interview Participant]

Well, that's true as well. I mean, you know, the great thing is that it's all very researchable.

Yeah.

And we did massive. Everyone involved, everybody did massive research on every level you can think of. Not just theatrical and musical, but all sorts of things. It was like a mini university in a way. It was great. The truth is, I've made three period films set in the 19th century that Mr. Turner and Peter Lou.

Yeah.

The fact is that the 19th century is actually only the day before yesterday.

Yeah.

I mean, really. I mean, my grandparents were born in the 1880 or something. Yeah. The Peterloo Massacre, which is what the last film was about before this current One was in 1819 in Manchester. Now, I knew in the 40s, when I was a kid, Yeah. I knew old women who would have been old enough to have known old people who were at the Pitou massacre. So in a way, as I say, it's just the day before yesterday. If I chose, perversely, to make a film set in the 6th or 7th century, I have no idea how we'd go about it, really.

Yeah.

Because, you know, it's an alien. Alien. Alien world.

Right.

[Mike Lee]

But because the vestiges of this period.

[Interview Participant]

Were with you around and it's all researchable.

Yeah.

You know, I mean.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, you only got to read Punch magazine from 1885 and you're on it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So. Yeah.

[Mike Lee]

So, Mr. Turner, I would imagine that there was. I. I mean, more so than other movies. You could see a bit of yourself in it.

[Interview Participant]

Yes. I haven't. I don't thought about that very much. Yeah, yeah, not really. No, not. No, I don't think that's what it's about, really.

[Mike Lee]

But. But the sense of, I mean, being an artist.

[Interview Participant]

Yeah, yeah. In that sense, of course. Yes, yes, yes.

Yeah.

[Mike Lee]

And what was your fascination with Turner?

[Interview Participant]

Well, I mean, Turner is an extraordinary painter.

Yeah.

I. Growing up as a teenager, I saw Turner and Constable, both painters.

Yeah.

I misread them as belonging in the same genre as the pictures of flying ducks over.

Yeah.

Lakes and things that my parents and other people had on their bourgeois bedroom walls.

Right.

Whereas in my bedroom, you know, there was. There were postcards of Picasso and I even have to admit, with some embarrassment, Salvador Dali.

Yeah.

You know, and all the rest of it.

[Mike Lee]

Why did he become embarrassing?

[Interview Participant]

Well, because he's just a. Just a box of tricks, really.

[Mike Lee]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Interview Participant]

But after I'd been to RAD and been an actor for a while, I went to art school for a couple. And it was there, with, amongst some other students that I discovered, turn and started to really understand. Understand what we were actually looking at.

Yeah.

And so I've always had a real fascination in his. Those extraordinary paintings. And of course, what you see in the film is the fact that a millionaire tries to buy his entire collection and he says, no, I'm going to leave it to the nation. And he did. He died in 1852. And it wasn't until 1947 that they finally got their act together. And there's now a Turner wing at the Tate Britain in London. And you can go. The Turner. You can go look at all the stuff, you know, and the archive was opened up to us when we made the film. It's amazing stuff.

Oh, yeah.

So, yeah, I Mean, this was a guy, an artist that challenged the status quo. I mean, he challenged the notion of. Of figurative pictorial painting, you know, I mean, you know, I mean, he didn't know it, but he was the inspiration to the impressionists a few decades later. Sure, yeah. I mean, but he. It was about getting out there. I mean. Okay, how do I relate to Turner? Actually he got out there in the wind and the rain and, you know, tied himself to the must of a ship and all that stuff to experience the storms, the landscape, the weather that he was painting. And it's extraordinary stuff, you know, but for me, the notion to make a movie about it apart from anything else, the tension, the contradiction, if you like, between this epic spiritual painting and this eccentric curmudgeonly guy.

Yeah.

Was fascinating.

Yeah.

So that's what.

Yeah.

That's why we got spoiled on the job, you know.

[Mike Lee]

Well, it's interesting that. That people that have no choice but to do the art.

[Interview Participant]

Yeah.

[Mike Lee]

Is. Is still the most unique artist.

[Interview Participant]

Absolutely.

[Mike Lee]

Is that there's no plan B. There's no other way of life.

[Interview Participant]

Absolutely. I mean, he had to do it and they just did it, you know.

[Mike Lee]

As do you.

[Interview Participant]

I guess so. That's true.

[Mike Lee]

And do you like. Now you're kind of doing a press tour for this new film. Do you feel like, okay, on to the next project or do you take more time to yourself?

[Interview Participant]

No, no, we are going to make another film. I think we are. Well, it looks like we're getting some money together. Not much.

Yeah.

Again, I would like to. I would like to do, or perhaps I should say like to have done a contemporary film on the scale of my period film, but no one's interested in backing such things.

[Mike Lee]

What would that be like? What do you mean?

[Interview Participant]

Well, I mean, just a film with a lot of characters and a lot of complex things.

Yeah.

I mean, we've done it. I mean, you could say that Secrets and Lies had quite a lot of different component elements, but. But we'll make another film, but probably on a smaller scale. On the scale of hard truths, you know. Right. I mean, but I'm gonna about to be 82.

Yes.

In a few weeks time and I'm Have a. Some physical disabled issues.

Yeah.

But I'm assured by everybody that that's fine. Everyone will look after me and we can get a move movie. The other thing that's completely rocked my whole project off its foundations is that Dick Pope, my cinematographer.

Yeah.

I'm sure everything I did since Life is Sweet in 1990, died a couple of Months ago.

[Mike Lee]

I'm sorry.

[Interview Participant]

Having been ill for a long time. And that's a huge loss because, you know, he wasn't just a cameraman who just pointed the camera wherever you told him to. He was an artist. And we collaborated in the most sophisticated way on the look and the spirit of each film and everything, you know, so that's a loss. And incidentally, although you know, his predecessor in my life, Roger Pratt, a great cinematographer who shot a lot of great movies, shot High hopes at Meantime and High hopes.

Yeah.

But then went off with Terry Gilliam and couldn't shoot. And that's when Dick Pope came in. He actually died on January 1st.

Oh, my God.

So it's kind of like, you know, it's. It's. That's. That's sad because, you know, people. Interesting thing about cinematographers and directors. People say, oh, this director made this film.

Yeah.

Now I can do a. I can put actors on a stage in a theater. Nobody else need to be involved at all. Not even a designer. You just put the actors on the stage.

Yeah.

But you can't make a. No director can make a film without that. Other important contributors. Oh, yeah, cinematography. You know, I can't shoot. I don't know. You know. You know.

Yeah.

So it's a massive loss.

[Mike Lee]

But, hey, do you see when you. When you watch other films, do you see ones that you like or that, you know, in terms of finding another cinematographer, which I know is.

[Interview Participant]

Well, we find another cinematographer, and Dick Pope himself would be horrified if he thought I was going to stop just because he's died. He'd give me a very hard time about that.

[Mike Lee]

How much are there large pieces of scenes or scenes in entirety that get left out, but shot?

[Interview Participant]

Not much. Not much, hardly. Occasionally, for one reason or the other. I mean, there are times when you. You say, actually this doesn't really contribute, and it's. It's. We're wasting time.

Yeah.

[Mike Lee]

Right.

[Interview Participant]

You know, and there are. There have been times when I've sort of slightly lost it and got involved in shooting stuff that. I mean, in Secrets and Lies, for example.

Yeah.

You know, he is a photo. A high street photographer.

Yeah.

So he shoots weddings and spoil. And I spent a couple of whole Saturdays out watching a real photographer photograph weddings. And I got. It was quite a whole big thing.

Yeah.

So I shot a lot of. A whole sequence of him going to a house and shooting the bridesmaids and doing all that. And when we put it together, we thought this is actually a massive red herring, really. I mean, you get A moment of him doing that and a moment with him at the beginning of the film photographing a bride.

Yeah.

In a smart house.

Yeah.

But you don't need, you know, so that whole chunk got dumped.

[Mike Lee]

Right.

[Interview Participant]

But that doesn't really happen very much. It's. It's a rarity, really. Yeah. What we shoot is what we need and that's what we use.

[Mike Lee]

What's interesting you got. You kind of told the story last night about, you know, producers wanting things removed.

[Interview Participant]

Well, that was a. That's hardly ever happened. In fact. In fact, that was a unique occasion. I think that was motivated by some very negative and irrelevant preoccupations.

Yeah.

But that shouldn't be taken as. As the norm, my films. Because, I mean, the deal with my films is we say to backers, there's no script. We can't tell you what it's about, we can't discuss casting, and please don't interfere with this at any stage of the proceedings. Give us the money. And either they say, fantastic, here's the money, go away, make a film, or they tell us to off, basically. I mean, it's straightforward, isn't it? And most of the latter happens.

Yeah.

Now, my late producer, Simon Channing Williams, who died about 10 years ago of cancer, would come back from meetings with potential backers and say, they don't mind that there's no script. They don't mind that they don't know what it's about, but they will insist on a name meaning a Hollywood star.

[Mike Lee]

Oh, okay.

[Interview Participant]

Oh, and I'd say, let's walk away. And you say, yeah, but they'll give you any amount. Let's walk away. I mean, the minute there's any suggestion that anyone's going to really interfere, I. I want nothing to do with it. I mean, what's interesting about Peter Lou is that Amazon Studios were new on the block at that time.

Yeah.

And they came in and backed it without any reservation or hesitation and never interfered with it at all and were really supportive.

Yeah.

But they were new on the block back in those days. Right. So it would be wrong to interpret that story, which I told. Sure. Which you're referring to, as being the norm, because it was a very exceptional circumstance.

[Mike Lee]

But you fought the fight and got.

[Interview Participant]

Yeah, totally. Yeah. And we won the Palm Door.

[Mike Lee]

And what was the relationship in those. Along those lines early on with the BBC?

[Interview Participant]

Oh, that was fantastic. Yeah, the BBC were great.

Yeah.

In that period. This is not so anymore, by the way. You'd go in and they'd say, okay, no, Script, don't know what it's about. That's the budget, that's the deadline. Go away and make a film. And it was fantastic. And you know, a whole bunch of us, I mean, what's important about that in the wider scheme of things is the only place you could make films in the, in, in the UK was for television.

Yeah.

Mostly for the BBC. Not entirely. And we used to sit around and we used to say, you know, we make these films with all our integrity and skills, but the world out there thinks there's no British cinema. We don't go to festivals. They were not, they're not regarded as movies because they're television films, etc, they're made on 16 millimeter, blah, blah, blah. And it was frustrating in a way. Although you get a massive, there are only three channels, you know, on television and you'd get huge, huge number viewers. And then as you know, in the mid-80s, the fourth channel, channel four started in the UK and their remit was to collaborate on and back independent productions. And so suddenly it was possible to make movies and that. They've been involved in nearly all of my films right down to hard truths.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

[Mike Lee]

But early on too, I think that's how Python happened was because of the BBC.

[Interview Participant]

Oh, it was a BBC. It was a BBC comedy show every week. Yeah, yeah, totally. And.

[Mike Lee]

But the freedom of the artists to kind of.

[Interview Participant]

Totally.

Yeah.

You were encouraged. I mean the BBC was a very liberal organization. It no longer is, but that's another story.

Yeah.

[Mike Lee]

Well, look, it was great talking to you. I'm like you.

[Interview Participant]

Fantastic. Thank you. No, good. Good luck.

[Mike Lee]

Thank you, you too.

[Marc Maron]

There you go. That was Mike Lee. What? What an honor. Just spectacular. And he took time to sign Kit's poster. She had ordered a poster of one of his movies. And which one was it? High hopes, I think. And he was very sweet and just great guy. Hang out for a minute, folks.

[Peloton Advertiser]

It's a new year, folks, so why not set those expectations high? Right now the sky's the limit. So take aim at something bold like challenging yourself to learn a new language or 25 new languages. Rosetta Stone is the world class language learning program that can get you started. Available on your desktop or as an app. I know what kind of listeners I have. And you're curious, intelligent and always on the lookout for new things. You're the perfect people to start learning new languages with. Rosetta Stone. Millions of Rosetta Stone users have learned how to speak 25 different languages, including Spanish, French, Italian, German, Korean, Chinese, Japanese, Dutch, Arabic and Polish. Lifetime membership gives you access to all 25 languages. So start the new year off with a resolution you can reach today. WTF listeners can take advantage of Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership. For 50% off, visit rosettastone.com WTF that's 50% off. Unlimited access to 25 language courses for the rest of your Life. Redeem your 50% [e-mail] WTF today.

[Marc Maron]

Hey, folks, we've got another WTF collection. Over on the full Marin feed, we put together a collection of stories about getting sober featuring Craig Ferguson, Karen Kilgarith, Dax Shepard, Jason Siegel, and Rob Delaney. So you went to sleep?

[Interview Participant]

Yeah, and then I got up. This is the first time that I know of that I had done this, but I got up, but still in a blackout. So I kind of like began my new day. And the first thing I decided to do was take a car. Not my car.

[Marc Maron]

It wasn't in the middle of the night.

[Mike Lee]

It was during the day.

[Interview Participant]

It was. It was like 4 in the morning.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, the worst time to be that up.

[Interview Participant]

Absolutely. So I took it, I got in a car and I drove it. Not anywhere near that party or near where I lived at the time, but I drove and I drove it really fast into the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power at the intersection of Pico and Genesee. And it was. Yeah, it was pretty cataclysmic car accident. There was no one else involved except me, thank goodness. I didn't know that at the time. I did have to ask the cops if I had killed any. Anyone, and they told me that I had not. And. And, yeah, I. I took out three parking meters, two trees, a light post, and then the building in the car.

[Marc Maron]

And you were in the building?

[Interview Participant]

In. In the building.

[Marc Maron]

You drove into the building?

[Interview Participant]

Yeah, half and half out.

Now.

[Marc Maron]

You don't remember having any sort of, you know, anger or water problems at home?

[Interview Participant]

No, no. It had nothing to do with my.

[Mike Lee]

It was like.

[Interview Participant]

No, Bill.

[Marc Maron]

There was no momentary like those water and power them.

[Mike Lee]

I saw Chinatown.

[Interview Participant]

Yep.

[Marc Maron]

To get the latest WTF Collection episode, plus new bonus episodes twice a week, sign up for the full Marin. Just go to the link in the episode description or go to wtfpod.com and click on WTF Plus. And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by acast. And a special thanks today to Morgan over here at Bad Ladder for hosting me in a studio. I guess we'll use some guitar from the vault.

[Interview Participant]

Sa.

Sa.

[Marc Maron]

Sa Boomer lives Monkey and Lafonda Cat angels everywhere.