Episode 1616 - Ariana Grande

Summary

WTF with Marc Maron: Episode 1616 - Ariana Grande

Release Date: February 10, 2025

In Episode 1616 of the "WTF with Marc Maron" podcast, host Marc Maron engages in a deep and revealing conversation with global pop sensation and acclaimed actress Ariana Grande. This extensive discussion traverses Ariana's journey from her early beginnings in musical theater to her ascent as one of the world's most influential artists, her foray into acting with the Oscar-nominated film "Wicked," and her approaches to mental health and personal boundaries in the high-pressure entertainment industry.

---

1. Introduction to Ariana Grande

[12:55-14:00]

Marc Maron opens the episode by expressing his admiration for Ariana Grande's extraordinary talent, likening her gift to something "from outer space." He highlights her position as one of the biggest global pop musicians and acknowledges her recent success in acting, notably her Oscar nomination for her role in "Wicked."

Notable Quote:

Marc Maron [12:55]: "Ariana Grande is here today, only one of the biggest stars in the world."

---

2. Early Career and Musical Beginnings

[14:00-19:00]

Ariana delves into her passion for singing from a young age, influenced by a household filled with divas like Judy Garland, Madonna, and Barbra Streisand. She recounts her first significant break at age eight, singing the National Anthem, and her experiences in Broadway's "13," where she met her best friend and fellow cast member, Aaron.

Notable Quote:

Ariana Grande [14:21]: "I was singing from the moment I could speak. I don't remember a time that I wasn't singing."

---

3. Transition to Music and Record Deal

[19:00-30:00]

Balancing her acting career on Nickelodeon's "Victorious" and "Sam & Cat," Ariana simultaneously pursued her music career. She discusses signing with Republic Records at 17 and working with legendary producer Max Martin. Ariana emphasizes her focus on authentic artistic expression over commercial success, highlighting her collaborative spirit and dedication to her craft.

Notable Quote:

Ariana Grande [44:18]: "I felt like Republic was just the perfect home for me. I just really felt understood."

---

4. Creative Process and Collaboration

[30:00-40:00]

Ariana elaborates on her creative process, particularly her role as a vocal producer and her enjoyment in arranging harmonies. She praises Max Martin for his genius and egoless collaboration, describing their work together as a "beautiful dance." This synergy has been pivotal in shaping her sound and maintaining artistic integrity.

Notable Quote:

Ariana Grande [53:40]: "He's such an art forward, but it's not economics person. He's an egoless person."

---

5. Acting in "Wicked" and Emotional Preparation

[40:00-60:00]

Transitioning to her acting career, Ariana discusses her role as Glinda in the film adaptation of "Wicked." She shares the intense preparation required, including three months of vocal coaching to master the operatic demands of the character. Ariana reflects on the emotional depth of portraying Glinda, emphasizing the importance of separating her personal experiences from her character to maintain authenticity.

Notable Quote:

Ariana Grande [61:33]: "I trained with Eric Vitro, my vocal coach, for three months before my first audition, so that I could sound like an authentic coloratura soprano."

---

6. Building Strong Relationships and Team Support

[60:00-70:00]

Ariana highlights the significance of building a supportive network, especially through her collaboration with co-star Cynthia Erivo. Their mutual commitment to maintaining a safe and trusting environment was crucial in navigating the challenges of filming "Wicked." Ariana also touches on the rigorous demands of the shoot, including long days and emotional strains, underscoring the importance of camaraderie and professional support.

Notable Quote:

Ariana Grande [68:57]: "We just got very real right away. I want you to know there's nothing that you can't talk to me about."

---

7. Mental Health, Boundaries, and Coping with Fame

[70:00-80:00]

Ariana candidly discusses the pressures of fame, including managing social media scrutiny and tabloid invasions. She advocates for the integration of mental health support in entertainment contracts, emphasizing the necessity of therapy for artists navigating the relentless spotlight. Ariana shares her strategies for maintaining personal boundaries, such as fostering normalcy through routine and seeking genuine human connections outside her celebrity persona.

Notable Quote:

Ariana Grande [74:38]: "Choosing this life is a tricky one. I'm lucky that I have so much love to cushion me when I feel like it's the weight of it."

---

8. Embracing Artistic Vulnerability and Personal Growth

[80:00-79:40]

The conversation culminates with Ariana reflecting on the balance between artistic vulnerability and personal resilience. She underscores the importance of intention and perspective in creating meaningful art, advocating for authenticity over mere ambition. Ariana celebrates the deep connections she forms with her fans and peers, viewing these relationships as the anchors that sustain her through the tumultuous waves of fame.

Notable Quote:

Ariana Grande [75:46]: "Art comes from some sort of soulful place. And you're a vulnerable person to choose to choose art."

---

Conclusion

Marc Maron's session with Ariana Grande offers an intimate glimpse into the life of an artist who navigates immense fame while striving to maintain authenticity and personal well-being. Ariana's journey from Broadway to global superstardom, coupled with her dedication to mental health and genuine human connections, provides invaluable insights into the complexities of modern celebrity life.

Final Notable Quote:

Marc Maron [79:17]: "That was the first text."

---

This episode serves as a testament to Ariana Grande's multifaceted talent and her unwavering commitment to her art and personal integrity. Listeners are left inspired by her resilience and grounded approach to navigating the highs and lows of a flourishing career in the entertainment industry.

Transcript

[Marc Maron]

Lock the gate. All right, let's do this. How are you? What the. What the Buddies? What the next. What's happening? I'm Mark Marin. This is my podcast. Welcome to it. It's called wtf if you're not aware what you're listening to. That's always been the name. I don't know that. We knew it'd be like a brand for years. We've been delivering it for years. What's happening? I don't know how it happened, but it happened. Ariana Grande is here today, only one of the biggest stars in the world. She's one of these people. I don't know her whole catalog. I don't know a lot of it. You know, I got up to speed. But one thing I always knew is even seeing her for 15 seconds, is that she's one of these profoundly talented people where the gift is so great you kind of think it might come from outer space. Not calling her an it, but the gift. Maybe she's from outer space. I don't know. I knew when I got the opportunity to talk to her that I would have to take it because she's a magic person. You know, it's rare. I don't know what your lives are like or how often you get to meet true, truly magical people. I've met a few. Even with all the 1600 or so conversations I've had with people, the magic people are kind of. They're kind of rare, real magic people. I was talking to. Who was I talking to about. I talked to James Mangold the other day. I'll put that out later. About Dylan. He's another guy. Where it's this otherworldly magic that comes into these people. It's a combination of talent, but also just. People are somewhat possessed with magical ability. But Ariana works hard. It's paid off. She's one of the biggest selling global pop musicians in history. And now she's an Oscar nominee for Best supporting Actress for Wicked. And when I got the opportunity to talk to her, I'm like, I do what I usually do. I got up to speed as much as I could. I generally. With a musical guest that I'm not, you know, and I'm not a. You know, I'm not a teenager. I didn't grow up with her. But generally what I do with musicians is I'll listen to some of their very first stuff and then I'll dip into the middle a bit, and then I really listen closely to their newest stuff so I can sort of see where they've come from and where they are now. And I did that with her and I had some experiences with a couple of her songs. We talk a bit about it, but needless to say, it was special talking to her because she's a special person. That's that. Hey, if you're in la, in the area and you want to help out with the LA fire relief efforts, I wanted to get you up to speed on something. This week. My old manager, Olivia Wingate is working on three benefit shows at the Elysian Theater here in la. That's today, tomorrow and Wednesday. It's Samantha Bees Wits End show, which is a live trivia game show where two celebrities go head to head. It's been running in New York for two years and now it'll be in LA with with the proceeds going toward the fire relief charities. Kurt Bronner, Kristen Schall, Doug Benson, Rachel Scanlon, Joe Mandy and Reggie Watts are just some of the comedians participating. You can go to the Elysian Theater website Elysiantheater.com for tickets. Again, that's tonight through Wednesday at 7pm Each night. Each night. I was up so late last night, you know, I was watching Gone Girl, which I've seen before, and somehow, even though it's that movie, I didn't really remember how it ended quite. I watched it because I was gonna, I was preparing to talk to Carrie Coon, who is a astounding actress, and I watched a couple heavy movies. I got, I got, I got boundary problems, man. With movies. Is that possible? I have, I have boundary issues with movies. I can't. Sometimes I watch a movie and I get so immersed that I can't separate it from my life. Like, I watched another one of her movies, the Nest, and it was like, you know, there's some, there's some animal tragedy in that, and I couldn't not. It's one thing feeling emotions, but to sort of have emotions that linger and pervade your entire being. I mean, I try to watch some happy movies. They don't do the same thing, you know. So I'm going to be starting out in Iowa City at the Engler theater on Thursday, February 13th. That's this Week on my tour. Then I'm in Des Moines, Iowa at the Hoyt Sherman place on Friday, February 14, and Kansas City, Missouri at the Midland Theater on Saturday, February 15. Next week I'm in Asheville, North Carolina, at the Orange Peel on Thursday, February 20, Nashville, Tennessee at the James K. Polk Theater on Friday, February 21, Louisville, Kentucky at the Baumhart Theater. On Saturday, February 22 in Lexington, Kentucky at the Lexington Opera House on Sunday, February 23. Then I'm coming to Oklahoma, Texas, South Carolina, Illinois, Michigan, Toronto, Vermont, New Hampshire, and then New York City for my special taping. Some of you are asking about tickets to that. They are not on sale yet. They are not there yet. But for all the other ones you can go to wtfpod.com tour for all my dates and links to tickets. This episode is sponsored by Squarespace. Are you stuck in the past when it comes to your online presence? It might feel like you just updated your website recently, but then you realize it's been a decade and you're way behind the times. Get yourself over to squarespace.com wtf and start making a beautiful website that has everything you need for today. For now, we created wtfpod.com using Squarespace, but that's just one example of how you can make Squarespace work for you. Because now Squarespace has enhanced features like design intelligence that helps you design a more personalized website tailored to your needs. This goes way beyond the type of design templates that were available in the past. Squarespace Payments is the easiest way to manage your payments in one space. Get started in just a few clicks and start receiving payments right away while giving your customers more ways to Pay. Head to squarespace.com wtf for a free trial, and when you're ready to launch, use offer code WTF to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. That's squarespace.com WTF offer code WTF maybe this is off topic, I don't know, but I've got a pretty new refrigerator and it's pretty sealed, it seems to me, and all these little fucking bugs keep getting in there. Now, I talk about a lot of things on this show, but I know, I know that's one of those things where I'm going to get a lot of emails with theories about the bugs, where they come from, why they're getting in, unless they just squeeze through the seal. Or maybe they're coming from food. But there's nothing in there that has the bugs. But. And I don't even know if they're bad for me. They're just a little. It's a little unseemly to open up the fridge to dozens of little bugs. I don't even know what they're eating. I had an apple cut in half in there. They didn't seem to want to touch it. What do they want? What do the bugs want from me? Why me man, it's been a long time since I've been a guest on things. I somehow pulled out of that. That. That rotation. Like, I don't do almost anybody's podcast, and I feel a little rusty at it. It's kind of weird. I had. I did a guest shot on Adam Ray's Dr. Phil show the other night, and it was weird. I was nervous. I think I told you about that. But the other day, I did a zoom appearance on Dana Carvey and David Spade's podcast, and that was fun, man. It was fun. Again, I got to keep talking to people. I see Spade pretty frequently at the Comedy Store, but just to engage with the two of them, and fuck, man, there are some guys that say some lines, then they're just lines where I'm like, holy shit, that is so funny. I'm never going to forget it. You know, I'll let you watch it because I don't want. I don't want to throw him under the bus in any way. But we're. Because I don't know if he'll use it. But we were talking about a movie that is notoriously kind of bad and panned, and we were talking about it, and I was like, I didn't see it. And I asked Spade if he had seen it. He said, I couldn't get through the poster. I couldn't get through the poster. Come on, that's a fucking. That's gonna be wedged in my brain forever. I'll just visit it when I need a little chuckle. I guess that's what good jokes do. Brendan reminded me of a joke I used to do that was similar. And I'm like, why did I stop doing that joke? Because it was too simple about watching a movie, a bad movie. And I guess the line was, it was so bad, I almost walked out of my house. I can use that for any movie. Why do I forget the good, simple jokes? Why don't I have more jokes? I tell you the story about taking it easy, the new Marc Maron. Well, in this time of trouble and darkness, and perhaps the end of even my ability to speak publicly from the point of view that I do. Come see those shows. Might be the last tour before the restrictions, but I just. I gotta lighten up a little bit, right? Why's everything gotta be so urgent, huh? What's wrong with me? This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Coming up in this conversation with Ariana Grande, you'll hear us talking about staying on track with mental health goals and how she handles it in the high pressure environment she's in. That's because she knows what a lot of the red flags are when it comes to her life and how she needs to be proactive about them before they become a problem. Therapy can help you identify the red flags as well as the green flags that point you toward healthy practices and relationships. If you want to give therapy a try, BetterHelp is a great way to get started. BetterHelp is fully online making therapy affordable and convenient, serving more than 5 million people worldwide. And it's easy to switch therapists at any time at no extra cost. You don't have to be a pop superstar to identify your green flags. Whether you're dating, married, building a friendship, or just working on yourself, it's time to form relationships that love you back. Discover your relationship green flags with better help. Visit betterhelp.com WTF to get 10% off your first month. That's better help. H E L p.com WTF oh yeah, relationships, right? I guess the last bad one I had is just a friend. Just a friend. I thought we were pretty good friends and he just was like, you're out. It's rough. My brother's going through that too, because. Yeah, how many friendships do you have in life, especially later in life? And for some reason, one of my friends was like, yeah, I'm done. And I'm like, why? And he told me, I'm like, that's not even a real thing. Whatever. Huh? Better help. Okay, look, I don't want to ramble on too long. Ariana Grande is here. I mean, come on, Come on. Ariana Grande is here. She's up for best supporting Actress at the Oscars. Wicked is still in theaters and available to rent on digital platforms. And she's here right now. This is me talking to Ariana Grande last night. I was like, you know, I did a show and then I, you know, I didn't know how to reward myself, so I plowed through a pint of non dairy Ben and Jerry's.

[Ariana Grande]

Oh, wow.

[Marc Maron]

Then I had to go to the gym to deal with that.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, that's how it. I feel like that makes. That's balance. That's the balance.

[Marc Maron]

Do you do that? What do you do after shows?

[Ariana Grande]

I don't. It's been so long since I've done a show. Yeah, I'm trying to think.

[Marc Maron]

You don't have a post show routine of sort of rewarding yourself with some marginal popcorn.

[Ariana Grande]

Popcorn and berries. That's like my favorite thing in the entire world.

[Marc Maron]

That's it.

[Ariana Grande]

No, I mean, not always, but that's my favorite.

[Marc Maron]

Popcorn's good.

[Ariana Grande]

That's my favorite snack in the. In the entire world.

[Marc Maron]

Like Air pop.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. I mean, maybe my favorite food. Like, I love popcorn. I love it so much. Popcorn. And sweet potatoes. And strawberries.

[Marc Maron]

And strawberries.

[Ariana Grande]

Oh, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Sweet potatoes. Where's that come from? How'd you pick that one up?

[Ariana Grande]

Being vegan and they're just kind of like a fabulous thing to have around, right? Yeah, they're the best. And mushrooms and tofu and.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah, I'm vegan, too. Two years?

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Two and a half. Almost two years.

[Ariana Grande]

Fabulous.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

That's so exciting. What inspired? What inspired?

[Marc Maron]

Well, I talked to Cynthia about this, too. It's so funny. I talked to Cynthia, and I think we talked about food for an hour.

[Ariana Grande]

Oh, my goodness. Wow. We're all too similar.

[Marc Maron]

So when you guys are on set, you probably could share your snacks.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. There are many berries. Many berries and cashews.

[Marc Maron]

What made me do it was like I wanted to see if I could get my cholesterol numbers down a little bit. They weren't that bad. But then I like cooking for it. I like the whole thing of it. And once you can figure out how to get protein and how to balance your food, it's great.

[Ariana Grande]

But once you figure it out, it's quite easy.

[Marc Maron]

When did you start doing it?

[Ariana Grande]

Well, I've been vegan for 13 years.

[Marc Maron]

So, like, since you were a kid, almost.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, I was. Yeah. I think I was, yeah. Like 19 or 18.

[Marc Maron]

Was it an animal thing?

[Ariana Grande]

It was an animal thing, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Really?

[Ariana Grande]

And what was the moment?

[Marc Maron]

Like, you looked at a cat and realized.

[Ariana Grande]

No, I mean, it was always something I wanted to do, and I sort of gradually sort of, sort of inched my way towards it. And growing up in an Italian household, it was kind of really not good. Yeah, it was kind of not. It was, yeah. Very, very, very disappointing to your mother? My grandparents. My mother, yeah. So red meat was the first thing to go, and then chicken and everything else.

[Marc Maron]

That's so funny, because Italians, I mean, it's all cheese and meat.

[Ariana Grande]

I know.

[Marc Maron]

How Italian were you guys?

[Ariana Grande]

Very. I mean, super, super Italian. Yeah. My mom's side is like Abruzzi, and then my dad's side is Sicilian.

[Marc Maron]

Really?

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And you grew up where?

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, in Boca Raton, Florida.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, my grandma lived there.

[Ariana Grande]

Of course she does. Or did.

[Marc Maron]

How'd your parents get there?

[Ariana Grande]

Because my grandparents wanted to move there. Oh.

[Marc Maron]

So it was sort of like a retirement Y kind of thing. Were they like New Yorkers?

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, Brooklyn. And my dad was excited about the fishing. My dad loves to fish, so he was excited about the idea.

[Marc Maron]

Does he still fish?

[Ariana Grande]

He does. He loves it so much.

[Marc Maron]

Really?

[Ariana Grande]

It's his favorite thing in the world. That and painting.

[Marc Maron]

He paints?

[Ariana Grande]

Yes, he paints. He's amazing. I think that should be his full time gig.

[Marc Maron]

Do you have his paintings in your house?

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, I do. I have several pieces of his.

[Marc Maron]

Like, what is it? Is it figurative, abstract or.

[Ariana Grande]

Some of it's abstract and some of it is like he'll make beautiful fish or something. We paint together sometimes.

[Marc Maron]

Really?

[Ariana Grande]

Whenever we have the chance to have like a day together.

[Marc Maron]

Like, you just set up a couple easels.

[Ariana Grande]

We'll do like a little paint and sip type thing.

[Marc Maron]

It's really sweet and so. But they were like, your grandparents were full on Brooklyn Italians.

[Ariana Grande]

Full on, full on Brooklyn Italian as Italian.

[Marc Maron]

Do you have like brothers and sisters?

[Ariana Grande]

Yes, I have a brother. We have different dads, but he's my full brother. You know what I mean?

[Marc Maron]

How does that work out to different dads? Your parents aren't together?

[Ariana Grande]

No, my parents aren't together. But we have a 10 year gap, me and Frankie, my older brother and I feel like that was great.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, so someone was married before?

[Ariana Grande]

My mom was married before, had my brother.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And then married your dad.

[Ariana Grande]

And then married my dad and had me.

[Marc Maron]

And now they're not together.

[Ariana Grande]

And now they're not together, but they're best friends. It took 18 years and it took me forcing it. I forced them to communicate again.

[Marc Maron]

When you were 18?

[Ariana Grande]

No, when I was like 20. It was my 24th birthday. And I remember just kind of being at this just pivotal point where I was just like, you guys, I love you both so much. It's been such a long time.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

Figure it the fuck out. Yeah, like, hello, it's been 18 years.

[Marc Maron]

And you're not even in the house anymore.

[Ariana Grande]

No, I'm long gone. I'm 80. Please get over it.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

And they did really? They're best friends now. I can't separate. It's the best thing in the whole world. I guess they just had like some sort of beautiful conversation or realized that like how much they love me is so much louder than whatever nonsense happened way back when.

[Marc Maron]

Well, that's so sweet.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, it really is beautiful. And like, if only they had the tools that I feel like we have now, this generation with like therapy and embracing like that, maybe they could have. It could have happened sooner, but it was just the perfect thing.

[Marc Maron]

And so they Were able to reconnect whatever brought them together in the first place.

[Ariana Grande]

And they're truly so close. Like, it's the sweetest thing. It makes me really happy. Yeah. And I'm like. It's like it did something to my brain too. It was like really a beautiful, healthy thing.

[Marc Maron]

So. But when you were growing up, there was tension all the time. Like, you know, who gets to spend time with you and all that stuff.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. Yeah. Tough. Yeah, very tough.

[Marc Maron]

So that must be a nice arc of closure, even though you can't get back the anxiety you had when you were a kid. But at least now they're okay.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. And at least it turned me into an artist. Perhaps. At least.

[Marc Maron]

You think so?

[Ariana Grande]

Maybe. Maybe. No, I was always an artist.

[Marc Maron]

How old were you? Well, how old are you?

[Ariana Grande]

That's bullshit. I was always an artist.

[Marc Maron]

No, I mean, no, I think there's something to that. Depending on what you come from, what drives you to do that, you know, as opposed to just be a person who just does a job.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

There's some sort of, you know, need for. I don't know what.

[Ariana Grande]

Right. The void.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, the void and the love.

[Ariana Grande]

The void and the love. And kind of being able to put that pain somewhere, I think maybe.

[Marc Maron]

I don't know, like. Because I find that, like, people always say, like, as a comic that you're, you know, looking for love and I. I don't know if that's true because if I am, I still resist it. I'll invite a little love and then as soon as I feel it, I'll push back on it.

[Ariana Grande]

Well, then you still get to be. You still continue with the comedy. Then there's endless source.

[Marc Maron]

I did an acting job with. I was in a scene with Sharon Stone and I had a cry and I told her. Well, it took a minute, but I told her all my tools are for not crying. I don't have tools for crying.

[Ariana Grande]

But sometimes that's the most beautiful thing to watch. I feel like. I feel like that's like the most.

[Marc Maron]

Moving thing when a closed up person lets go.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. When a close up person is trying really fucking hard to not cry.

[Marc Maron]

And then they do.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. And then like.

[Marc Maron]

Or they don't.

[Ariana Grande]

But you see how hard they're trying. I don't know. That's really moving too.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Well, I mean, as I get older, I cry at everything. Oh, good for, you know, dumb things.

[Ariana Grande]

Me too.

[Marc Maron]

You do.

[Ariana Grande]

But I'm a cancer.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. What does that mean? You said that like, I'm gonna go like, oh, well, that makes sense.

[Ariana Grande]

What is. Do you know your sign?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

What are you.

[Marc Maron]

Libra.

[Ariana Grande]

Okay, cool.

[Marc Maron]

What does that mean?

[Ariana Grande]

I don't fucking know.

[Marc Maron]

Okay, I'm kidding.

[Ariana Grande]

I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. It means you're balanced. You've got the both sides.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. But that also means indecision. It means that, like, everything's torture. Minor decisions are a pain in the ass.

[Ariana Grande]

No. I don't know.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Cancer.

[Ariana Grande]

With cancers. I'm very emotional. Very watery. Very creative. I like my shell.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

But I do think I have a soft shell because, you know, I'm very open as well. I'm very. I feel like I have. I sit on the cusp of, like, really being a very protective and guarded person, but also. But also really wanting to let the whole world in.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

And, like, you can't see, but my arms are above my head.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. She's letting the world in right here in the garage.

[Ariana Grande]

So I sort of sit. I sit in the middle. But.

[Marc Maron]

But that's interesting because, like, for some reason, I feel like when you just open your arms like that and let the world in, my first thought is, like, it's gonna crush me.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. But you think, like, it's gonna lift you up.

[Ariana Grande]

I don't know. Sometimes. I don't know.

[Marc Maron]

The world crushes you.

[Ariana Grande]

I think. You never know.

[Marc Maron]

Well, you're like a singer. And that's so, like. Cause I was listening to, like. Well, I listened to the newest record, and it's interesting. Cause, like, when I think about the songs that strike me, I don't think it would be the single. You know, I don't know what the singles were on that record, but that.

[Ariana Grande]

One from Eternal Sunshine.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. What were the singles?

[Ariana Grande]

Okay, so the. The first single was yes, and. Which was kind of like. It was just kind of a dipping a toe in the water, like, setting the stage.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

Like, that was. The only reason that that song could exist on the album would be if it came as like a. Hello, we're here, coming back, and then we can't be friends.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. That one's my favorite.

[Marc Maron]

And, like, there was. But the weird thing for me is, like, because of the chords or the music. The one at the Imperfect for your is the one that, like, I was like, oh, that hit me.

[Ariana Grande]

Oh, that's one of my favorites.

[Marc Maron]

It is.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. No, like, ever. My whole discography. Thank you.

[Marc Maron]

Really.

[Ariana Grande]

Thank you. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

It's like. It's a great song.

[Ariana Grande]

Thank you so much.

[Marc Maron]

And it's got that nice kind of Almost that build that goes up and then there's the one odd chord that changes the melody.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

Thank you.

[Marc Maron]

I like that song.

[Ariana Grande]

Thank you.

[Marc Maron]

Because, like, I. Look, I didn't grow up listening to Young Old Man.

[Ariana Grande]

That's really okay. That's really quite okay.

[Marc Maron]

And then, like, you know, when I get the opportunity to talk to you, I'm like, oh, my God, she's the biggest pop star in the world. And, like, I'm like, I need to know some songs.

[Ariana Grande]

But no, no. But what's interesting, what kind of music do you like?

[Marc Maron]

I like all music. I just think, like, with newer stuff, there's so much coming out all the time. And I don't know, like, when I look at your discography and I look at who you collaborated with, I'm like, I don't even know who she's singing with. I mean, I don't know any of these people. How do. Are these people famous? I don't know, but it's just old man shit, you know?

[Ariana Grande]

You're making me laugh too hard. You're agitating my cough. This is very bad.

[Marc Maron]

But it's not like. It's not. It's not dismissive. It's just. I can't keep up.

[Ariana Grande]

No, that's exciting.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

Well, also, it's just things come out so rapidly these days because the attention span is so different.

[Marc Maron]

That's right. And. And it seems like you were able to capitalize on that pretty early on. Like, or at least be savvy to it because of your generation. Like, even with Ellie Taylor. Like, I don't. Like, I know she's the biggest, you know, concert draw in the world, but, like, I can't. I'm like, I don't. Should I know? Should I be? And then I. It's funny because I'm doing this whole big bit, my comedy act that involves a Taylor Swift song.

[Ariana Grande]

Oh, really?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

I want to come see your show.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, you should.

[Ariana Grande]

Where do you live? I'm bouncing around from LA and New York all the time.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, yeah? Well, I'm gonna tape an HBO special in May.

[Ariana Grande]

Cool. Fun. How come? Yeah, yeah, I wanna see.

[Marc Maron]

I'll let you know. Yeah, it's been pretty funny. I did a show last night, but there's a big moving part about crying and about a Taylor Swift song.

[Ariana Grande]

Anyway, did you use it for a sense memory for your scene with Sharon Stone?

[Marc Maron]

No, I used the thing that. The trigger of all that stuff, and I think you've dealt with some of this too, is that I lost my Partner. A few years ago, she passed away.

[Ariana Grande]

I'm sorry.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Thank you. But the whole thrust of the bit with the Taylor song is like, I do this hike, you know, every once in a while. You know, I hike a lot. And, you know, I listen to music, you know, and I talk about grief. Like, you don't know when it's gonna happen. You know, you have it in you.

[Ariana Grande]

Oh, yeah. At all times.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. But, you know, once you're through the initial trauma of it, you can kind of compartmentalize it, but sometimes it comes.

[Ariana Grande]

Up and you randomly.

[Marc Maron]

Right. And then you gotta just let it happen.

[Ariana Grande]

And you're like, oh, fuck, that thing from however long ago is saying hello to me.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, that's right.

[Ariana Grande]

And you have to allow it.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, you have to allow it. So the whole thrust of the bit is like, I'm doing this hike. And I'm like, why is Taylor Swift so popular? Like, I'm an old man. I'll just download her record. And then, like.

[Ariana Grande]

And then you're crying.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. On the hike.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're, like, having this religious experience.

[Marc Maron]

Exactly.

[Ariana Grande]

On this hike.

[Marc Maron]

It was the song Bigger Than the Whole Sky.

[Ariana Grande]

Wow.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And so. Well, that was that whole. About that. And then I didn't think.

[Ariana Grande]

Did it trigger, like, a beautiful release for you?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, well, that's the thing that you have to. Cause as I said before, you know, a lot of. You know, I hold down a lot. Like, I have control of my emotions and I stifle them a lot when I should have them. But with that particular one, there's something beautiful about that.

[Ariana Grande]

With grief.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Because it brings you to a place of remembrance and also connection and also, you know, just the honest feeling of. Of loss. And, you know, you gotta let it happen.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. But, you know, it's heavy. But no one.

[Ariana Grande]

It's very heavy.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. No one's gonna get out of this thing without experiencing it one way or the other. I know, but one of the things that.

[Ariana Grande]

But it's so. It's so strange because people. It's so. People are so scared to talk about it or to, like, allow it in any sense.

[Marc Maron]

I did my whole last special about that.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

About dealing with it through comedy to provide some relief. Because there is no cultural dialogue around it.

[Ariana Grande]

None.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Because people are terrified of death.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So when it, you know, it's even how we treat elderly people, you know, you don't want to see it because you know it's happening.

[Ariana Grande]

Oh, my God. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Because, like, there is that it's impossible not to have that feeling when somebody you love passes away that. Well, I'm gonna. It's gonna happen to me.

[Ariana Grande]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

It's selfish, but I agree with you. There should be a place where people can handle it because we're built to handle it.

[Ariana Grande]

Are you afraid of it? Of death?

[Marc Maron]

Of death?

[Ariana Grande]

Well, I don't.

[Marc Maron]

I think about it all the time.

[Ariana Grande]

How are we here already? I had a feeling because I've listened to your show and I'm a fan of yours, but I had a strange feeling that we would. You and I would meet, say hello.

[Marc Maron]

And then talk about that.

[Ariana Grande]

I would meet one cat. Yeah, two you mentioned, and we would jump into, like, the depths of everything we've ever experienced. I'm so sorry for asking. You're afraid of death?

[Marc Maron]

No, no, no. I mean, like. No, I think it's the most. You know, it's a pretty honest question. And, I mean, the entire, you know, global economy is built on people being afraid of death and being distracted. But when I think about it, sometimes I think, like, well, that'll be. You know, it'll be relaxing. Like, you know, I think I'm ready for a rest, you know, but, you know, I generally like to wake up, so. Oh, my God.

[Ariana Grande]

I'm sorry. I'm having a coughing fit.

[Marc Maron]

No, but, yeah, I think I am afraid of it. But I do. I think I can acknowledge it as an inevitability and I think coming to peace with it, which you don't have to do. You're young, and I'm not that old. But there is a point where you're kind of, like, walking with it on a certain level.

[Ariana Grande]

But, I mean, I feel like I've kind of experienced many things that have put it at the front of my.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

Brain and made me. Made me spend some time thinking.

[Marc Maron]

Right. The fragility of life.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, the fragility of life. And kind of like, where do we go and what happens? And am I. And how do I feel about it?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

And I don't know. I mean, there is sort of a. There is sort of a freedom and acceptance.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. If you can do it.

[Ariana Grande]

If you can, you know?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

But I love. I love life, and I'm a person who loves being here.

[Marc Maron]

Do you think about, like, the after thing? Are you, like, a heaven person?

[Ariana Grande]

I am not a heaven person. I think I'm a kind of like, hope to see again. Hope to see again.

[Marc Maron]

We change energy, but we're kind of here, and.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. Or maybe. Or maybe there's, like, A will I be a grasshopper next time Type question I ask myself.

[Marc Maron]

That's right. Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

But I think that's more of like, I wish, like, I hope I'll be a ladybug or something.

[Marc Maron]

I did a whole bit about that that, you know, in the weeks after she died, this idea somebody had told me that, well, no one ever leaves. Their energy is still here.

[Ariana Grande]

That's that. That I really know that I feel like I know to be true. Do you know that to be true?

[Marc Maron]

I do. The joke on that was like, I prefer in human form for sure. You know, I can go preferred.

[Ariana Grande]

The preferred form is.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah. Human and alive.

[Ariana Grande]

Human and alive.

[Marc Maron]

But then I do this whole thing about hummingbirds. Like I saw hummingbirds and I'm like, oh my God, it's Lyn. And then the joke is, the next day there was like four hummingbirds. I'm like, oh, fuck, which one's Lynn? You know, that kind of thing.

[Ariana Grande]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

But yeah, I mean, let's get back to your voice.

[Ariana Grande]

So, yeah, we're 10 minutes in.

[Marc Maron]

What I found interesting and that, I don't know, that I always fully recognize is that even when you were a kid or kid ish, like on the first record, you know, though, you were singing these, you know, songs and it was sort of R B songs. Right. And. But like, there's something that is specifically unique. Like you can fully hear who you are in your voice.

[Ariana Grande]

Thank you.

[Marc Maron]

From a very young age. And I don't know if there's a way to explain that, but like, when you were a kid, early on and before you started singing professionally, were you the kind of person that would walk around the house singing constantly?

[Ariana Grande]

Oh, yeah, totally. I sang from the moment I could speak. I. I don't know, I don't remember a time that I wasn't singing.

[Marc Maron]

But do you remember, like, you know, early on, you know, who were you singing?

[Ariana Grande]

Well, I think whatever my mom was listening to. So there was a lot of Judy Garland, Madonna, Barbra Streisand, Whitney Houston.

[Marc Maron]

Really?

[Ariana Grande]

Divas. We lived in a household where we were always playing musicals and divas and like Rocky Horror. Like, like.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, so that was your mom's thing.

[Ariana Grande]

My mom loves. She loves divas. And also, like Halloween.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

I was never, like, I was never sheltered from horror or like R rated things or whatever.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, you're just seeing all those movies.

[Ariana Grande]

No. Yeah, My favorite movie when I was 2 was Jaws. Like, I was really weird. Oh my God, I was strange. But no, the singing was always present and Judy Garland, somewhere of the Rainbow was a part of that. The wizard of Oz was a huge part of my life when I was a little girl.

[Marc Maron]

But your mom had some of the concert stuff of hers and other recordings of Judy's.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, and Barbra Streisand and NSync. And I loved Wild.

[Marc Maron]

So. Have you ever done Judy Garland songs?

[Ariana Grande]

Have I ever. Well, Somewhere over the Rainbow has had kind of an important presence in my life.

[Marc Maron]

Well, yeah, of course. Well, now you're part of that mythology.

[Ariana Grande]

It's very crazy because it's just meant so much to me my whole life. Like, it was one of my. My grandpa always used to ask me to sing that song, and he was my number one. I mean, he was just my best friend. My favorite.

[Marc Maron]

Was he like, a fun old Italian guy?

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, he was a fun old Italian guy who was always in a suit and tie. Always. And Bruno Mali's. And he was just the kindest man in the entire world.

[Marc Maron]

And what was his. What did he retire from? What was his life?

[Ariana Grande]

So he actually ran a company that he then passed on to my mom. So my mom took over and started working with him when she was, like, 21, I think. Really, because he didn't have a son, he had two daughters, so he was like. Yeah. Well, one of you girls has to come up and learn what the business is.

[Marc Maron]

What is a business?

[Ariana Grande]

They design and manufacture, like, communication equipment for, like, ferries and ships and, like, big, big ships and helicopters and stuff. So. Yeah, it's quite complicated and loud and craz.

[Marc Maron]

And that's your mom's gig.

[Ariana Grande]

And that's my mom's gig now. So she's like this brilliant engineer, CEO person.

[Marc Maron]

Powerhouse.

[Ariana Grande]

Powerhouse lady.

[Marc Maron]

Wow.

[Ariana Grande]

And she's amazing. The Summer of the Rainbow, it was always his favorite. So then it kind of followed me, and I sang it in Manchester at our benefit concert because of the significance it had in my heart and in my life.

[Marc Maron]

Did you cry?

[Ariana Grande]

I sure did. I barely made it through the song.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, my God.

[Ariana Grande]

And then it kind of. I sang it every night for the rest of the tour to kind of, you know, as like a tribute, of course, to Manchester and, of course, everyone who was there.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

And it just has always been a really important song in my life, and.

[Marc Maron]

It'S one of those songs so much, and, well, that kind of speaks to what we were talking about before. It's one of those songs that requires, you know, your emotional engagement individually. Totally. Like anybody who sings that song, the song defies you to make it your own. Totally because of the poetry of it.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Was there a moment where someone said, holy shit, this kid's got it in your family or any. Or were you just a singing kid? Were you a normal kid?

[Ariana Grande]

I was a singing kid. I don't know. My mom. My mom definitely noticed that I could sing.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

I think I was like 4 when she kind of was like, what the fuck? Wait, that's not like, you know, there's.

[Marc Maron]

A gifted person in the house.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. But she never forced it on me. Like, she never wanted me to pursue it. And she always said, you know, if you want to do this, I'm here. And if there are. If you want to audition for things, you can. And I did. I wanted to.

[Marc Maron]

In Florida.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes, in Florida. In South Florida. Yeah. But she was always, like, very supportive.

[Marc Maron]

But not.

[Ariana Grande]

Not a stage mom in the way that I think is a nightmare.

[Marc Maron]

Right. But you know why is. Because she's a boss.

[Ariana Grande]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

And that there wasn't this, like, I think the insidious thing about the stage mom thing is that they're kind of pimping out their kid.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And there was no reason for that.

[Ariana Grande]

And their kid is sort of filling this void for them. Whatever it is. It's very strange.

[Marc Maron]

So it sounds like you had a good separation. Your mom was able to let you be your own person.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. It was a healthy but gorgeously supportive. I'm so lucky that I have her and that I had her. Just because she's so fucking brilliant and fiercely, fiercely protective and also a good.

[Marc Maron]

Role model because you're kind of a boss.

[Ariana Grande]

Oh, thank you.

[Marc Maron]

I don't understand how pop music works, but I mean, it's like.

[Ariana Grande]

Me neither. 10, 11 years in.

[Marc Maron]

You don't.

[Ariana Grande]

No, I'm kidding. It's a strange world, but I love the creative part of it so much.

[Marc Maron]

And what was your dad doing during all this?

[Ariana Grande]

So my dad is. My mom is the business side. My dad is the art side. My dad is a. He does real estate photography, but he's also a graphic designer and a painter.

[Marc Maron]

Real estate photography? You mean like those wide angle shots that make houses look bigger than they are?

[Ariana Grande]

He does beautiful photography, but also just like lots of graphic design and website design.

[Marc Maron]

So you go from one house with the CEO to the house with the painter with the pictures and everything?

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. And if you know them, it makes sense how I could exist.

[Marc Maron]

Sure.

[Ariana Grande]

Do you know what I mean?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And how was he with your singing?

[Ariana Grande]

He was the same way. He was very aware of the fact that he thought I had A gift and that I would probably choose to do this. But he was always the one who was like, if you ever want to quit or call it or throw in the towel, it's a lot. It's a lot of stimulation. It's a lot of attention. It's a lot. Don't let them take too much from you. And you throw in the towel and you come home and we'll go fishing and. And we'll sit on the boat, whatever it is, you know, I don't love to fish, but I love to be with him.

[Marc Maron]

Were there ever times where you were like, I gotta take a break and go on the boat with my dad?

[Ariana Grande]

I think there are. Maybe. Maybe there are a few times when I should have. But. But kept pushing. I kept pushing for a while.

[Marc Maron]

And so with the. Your first break was really singing the National Anthem?

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, when I was eight.

[Marc Maron]

And was it. But did that. Because, you know, Mandy Moore has the same story.

[Ariana Grande]

Oh, really?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. She sang in national. And. And then it began. I began to wonder is like, do they know that this is a way in, like, that they're going to get seen doing the National Anthem?

[Ariana Grande]

No. I had no idea.

[Marc Maron]

How did that. Like, how old were you?

[Ariana Grande]

I was eight.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

And I had my hair exactly how it is right now in the little bun.

[Marc Maron]

You got to keep things consistent.

[Ariana Grande]

I know.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

It's true. And I. Yeah, I had so much fun. Yeah, I really enjoyed it.

[Marc Maron]

But how'd that happen? Oh.

[Ariana Grande]

Oh, there was a little. There was a little thing in the newspaper, and either my Nona or my mom saw it, and they took me to audition, and I didn't expect anything, but they let me do it. And it was really nice and fun.

[Marc Maron]

And you killed it.

[Ariana Grande]

It was really sweet. Oh, my goodness. You know, I had fun.

[Marc Maron]

Was the audience sort of like, what is happening?

[Ariana Grande]

No, they were very supportive. They cheered for me. And it was.

[Marc Maron]

Oh. They were like, let's give the kids some love. Yes, she's gonna do it.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, it was really sad.

[Marc Maron]

And when. When does it start? So, like, as a regular kid, you know, are you. Are you having fun? Are you going to school? Do you, like, have friends and stuff?

[Ariana Grande]

I have friends. I was going to school. I went. I. I enjoyed it, but I enjoyed theater a lot more, and I enjoyed my theater friends way more.

[Marc Maron]

Is it separate than the school?

[Ariana Grande]

Separate than the school.

[Marc Maron]

Like a child. Children's theater.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, because I was going to Pine Crest, and I wasn't doing that much theater at Pine Crest. I was doing it outside. I Was doing it at Little Palm Family Theater.

[Marc Maron]

So kids here.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. And then that was where I met my best friend, Aaron, who is still my best friend. And we were 6 and 7.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, wow.

[Ariana Grande]

And we were playing Judy Garland and Mickey Rooney and it was so cute. And we were inseparable. And I was doing so much theater. And then I switched schools. I went to North Broward for middle school. That was when I sort of. I was in their thespian's class. But then I left because I got cast in 13, the musical on Broadway.

[Marc Maron]

That's big.

[Ariana Grande]

That was. So I wasn't there that long, but I.

[Marc Maron]

Are you doing all musical theater?

[Ariana Grande]

Basically, yeah. I was doing all musical theater. And then Aaron and I both got cast in 13th together.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

Which is crazy.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, it's crazy.

[Ariana Grande]

It's really insane.

[Marc Maron]

And that's a big Broadway show. How'd they find you down there?

[Ariana Grande]

We flew to New York together with our moms.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Did you have, like, a Florida agent or manager?

[Ariana Grande]

I don't even think so. No. I think we just found out through, like, our New York friends because Aaron had a bunch of friends and family there and I don't even remember how we found out, actually.

[Marc Maron]

And you just flew up there?

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, I went with him just for fun. And they did a huge casting call and they saw so many kids, and they ended up casting us in the reading for 13, the musical. And then we stayed with the show. We did it at Goodspeed in Connecticut.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

And then we went to.

[Marc Maron]

That was the previews. How long did it run? How long were you there?

[Ariana Grande]

I think it was like five months, six months.

[Marc Maron]

That's a long time.

[Ariana Grande]

I think so. I don't remember. Yeah, but it happened, which is fairly cool.

[Marc Maron]

And that's when the attention started to come to you.

[Ariana Grande]

I mean, it was. We were on Broadway. It felt really. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

That was that time in Broadway where, like, they had found a market with young people, I think. Like, there was a lot of shows.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes. Billy Elliott was happening at the same time, right?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

And it was like a few years after Mary Poppins, which was cool. To that show.

[Marc Maron]

And then that leads to the Nickelodeon show.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. Which was immediately after. And my friend Liz Gillies, who was in 13 with me and Aaron. Liz and I went to our audition for Victorious together. And then we both booked that together.

[Marc Maron]

That was in New York.

[Ariana Grande]

That was in la.

[Marc Maron]

So you came to LA for that show?

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, we flew out together to audition.

[Marc Maron]

And that's just. That was straight acting, right?

[Ariana Grande]

Yes. A little bit of music. Though we sang a couple of times on that show. Yeah, so it was a musical show, but it was. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And when do you start? And then you did the spinoff. I had McCurdy on here.

[Ariana Grande]

Oh, my God. Jeanette.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah. She's great. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

She's amazing.

[Marc Maron]

Heavy book.

[Ariana Grande]

Heavy book, heavy story. Yeah, but she's amazing person.

[Marc Maron]

Yes, she seems on top of it. So after. But during that. That show, when do you start to focus on just music?

[Ariana Grande]

It was happening simultaneously. So while I was filming, you know, Victorious and Sam and Cat, I was, like, going to the studio in the evenings and making my first album and.

[Marc Maron]

By yourself?

[Ariana Grande]

Oh, sorry. Sorry. No, I mean, I was working with, like, producers and co writers and. And of course, like. But it was crazy. We would shoot all day and then I would go to the studio afterwards and sing and then come in with my red hair.

[Marc Maron]

Did you. What happened to school? How does school work?

[Ariana Grande]

Well, I did it in a little classroom that they had on set. Yeah, up in the little second floor. We had a tutor until we all graduated long distance.

[Marc Maron]

So you're producing these songs and you're putting them up on YouTube?

[Ariana Grande]

I did. I put up a few, but not many when I was younger.

[Marc Maron]

But, like, how did you know that YouTube was the thing?

[Ariana Grande]

I think it was just the thing back then.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

I guess it was just, like, I had fans for the first time and.

[Marc Maron]

I was from the TV show.

[Ariana Grande]

From the TV show. And that was like, such a kind thing and they wanted to hear me sing more. So it was just a place for me to put stuff.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

And then it was just a really strange, crazy development. I just remember it happening really quickly.

[Marc Maron]

When you put it up on YouTube.

[Ariana Grande]

Well, just the fandom, the journey from that, from uploading my first cover on YouTube to then having a little tour that people wanted, that my fans wanted to come to. And I remember I was touring my first album, previewing it, and they knew the words from YouTube videos before it was even out.

[Marc Maron]

And these are all young girls, mostly.

[Ariana Grande]

And boys and everybody in between. Yeah, yeah. And it was just really sweet. I just remember how quickly it traveled and being, like, really floored. My first show that I did of. I forget what I was calling it. Oh, my God, they're gonna kill me. My kids. What the hell was it called?

[Marc Maron]

Your first tour?

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, the Something tour. It was the Something Tour. And it was like this tiny, tiny thing.

[Marc Maron]

Was Nickelodeon involved with that? No, no, it was just totally separate.

[Ariana Grande]

No, it was separate. This was kind of when I was discovering that it was okay to separate and to do music, but I was. I still had red hair, so I was dying my hair back and forth, like, on the weekends to go do, like, a gig or a music video.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

And then it would be, like, with temporary dye. Then I would, like, wash it out. Wash it. And try to get it bright red. Try to get it bright red so I wouldn't get in trouble at work. And, like, it was just the craziest. The craziest time.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And were you, like, you were able to handle it? You weren't freaking out?

[Ariana Grande]

No, it was. It was just such a. It was such a beautiful time because, you know, it was all positive and it was all still bubbling and just kind of becoming what it was going to be eventually, before anything was out, really.

[Marc Maron]

What were the venues? Were they big? Like, were they.

[Ariana Grande]

The Roxy? Like, I played the Roxy here.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And so kind of rock club size.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, like, rock club size. It was really special.

[Marc Maron]

And now. So now that happens, and how do you get the. How do you all of a sudden just kind of launch into a music career? So you got a record deal?

[Ariana Grande]

Yes. So the record deal I signed with Republic sort of while I was still working on the TV shows, which took a lot of, like, figuring out what the right thing was to do, you know?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

And I found that Republic was just the perfect home for me. Like, I just really felt understood. Who Else Was There by Monte Lippman it was really just how I felt meeting with the team. Yeah. I tried to just kind of separate that, you know, which other people were there at the time and just kind of focus on how the people made me feel and what they said about, like, you know, my trusting my creative impulses.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

And I was young, but I definitely knew what I wanted to do. I wanted to wear little 50s dresses and I wanted to sing pop R B, and I wanted to. And, you know, there were some meetings that I took.

[Marc Maron]

Incarnation of you.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

And there were some. There were some meetings that I took that kind of had a very different vision for what they thought I should be. Like, what? Just like, not what.

[Marc Maron]

Cause you were, what, 18? How old were you?

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, I was like, 18. Nine. I was 18 years old.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

Actually, I signed with them when I was 17, I'm pretty sure, with Republic. But no, it was just really different. And I just remember being like, oh, I don't know that that feels authentic to me or safe to me, actually, and following that. And I remember meeting with the Republic family the first time with Monty and with Joe and with Wendy and everyone and just knowing, okay, I can.

[Marc Maron]

They get it.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, they get it.

[Marc Maron]

And they're willing to honor my vision for what this is.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. At this point and help. And this is a very crazy thing to jump into, and I think I'll be able to navigate it well and stay as safe as possible with these people, with this family.

[Marc Maron]

And so you did that first record, which was like, yours truly. Yeah. And those were original songs, though, weren't they? And in terms of working with producers and everything, when did you decide or when did you know that there were some hits on that record? Right.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. I mean. Yeah, there was. The first single was the Way.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

And then we had Baby, I. There's a. It was just kind of like getting a little bit of my first taste at what was to come. You know what I mean? It was just, like, a crazy thing. I had no possible expectation of where it was gonna go from there. I just thought this was the craziest thing ever, you know, The Way came out and was in the top 10 on the Billboard thing, and I didn't even know what that meant. Like, I'm not even kidding. I didn't. I. I shit you not. I had no idea what that meant.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

I didn't know what that meant.

[Marc Maron]

And you're surrounded by people going, oh, my God.

[James Mangold]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

They're going, holy shit, it's number one on iTunes. And I was like, what are you talking about? What does that even mean? And they were like, it's gonna be on the top 10 on Billboard. And I was like, okay, is that good? What does it mean? Is it fine?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

And does this. Am I supposed to do something about it? Do I care about it? I have. But of course I. You know, I was just like a kid who wanted to make art.

[Marc Maron]

Sure.

[Ariana Grande]

And I had to learn the other side of it. Like, I didn't know the business side of it at all when I came into it.

[Marc Maron]

That's probably better off.

[Ariana Grande]

Way better off.

[Marc Maron]

Because then you don't.

[Ariana Grande]

I try to keep it that way.

[Marc Maron]

Well, it seems like what you're telling me, that makes you different. Certainly there's a generation of people that. I wrote this thing the other day. It just says, ambition is not a point of view.

[Ariana Grande]

Mm.

[Marc Maron]

Mm.

[Ariana Grande]

No, it's fucking not. Wow. That's the best thing I've ever heard. Point of view is the only thing that matters.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Ariana Grande]

Really? I mean it.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

Like, even, like, when I'm watching, like, Drag Race, I'm like, wow.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

Point of View. Point of view. Point of view, right.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

This is like these pieces, you know, like, point of view in art is just, like, inarguably the most important thing.

[Marc Maron]

Well, that's. That's totally correct. But a lot of people just are ambitious and they figure it out through persistence.

[Ariana Grande]

That scares me quite a bit.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Well, yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

Intention is so important.

[Marc Maron]

Well. Because what happens is if the public begins to be comfortable with that, then the integrity of what real art is gets diminished.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And you get a lot of amateurs getting very popular specifically for the fact that they make money. Do you know what I'm saying?

[Ariana Grande]

Sure.

[Marc Maron]

But so what I was saying, though, is it's kind of beautiful that your intentions were always creative.

[Ariana Grande]

Well, thanks.

[Marc Maron]

You know, from the get go, you weren't like, how do I make a number one single?

[Ariana Grande]

I didn't even know what that was.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

I did not even know what that was. I just wanted to sing my ass off, and I wanted to sit there and write songs with collaborators I loved and make music. And that's all I knew.

[Marc Maron]

That's all I knew that was. I was curious about that because I mentioned that earlier about pop music. Is that. Do you, like, when you collaborate with people, do you bring that to the table? Are you like. I really like this person and I like their work. And can we see if we can get. Because collaboration is, like. It's like a big part of pop music.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. I mean, when I was young, I didn't know anyone. I didn't know anyone. So I had the help of my label to introduce me.

[Marc Maron]

Right. Like, do you know these guys? Do you know this group? Or do you know this woman? And.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

Like, wild.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. But then I sort of, like, made amazing friends and sort of found my people that I sort of clicked with.

[Marc Maron]

And then when you become, like, big, then people know you, and then I imagine people are calling you, like, you know, we come to do this thing on my thing.

[Ariana Grande]

I mean, sometimes.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

But no, I. I'm such a. I'm such a. A cancer. Like I said, I, I. When I. When I meet people I trust and love, I. I kind of am very loyal to them and I grow with them.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

Until. Yeah, until I kind of. Until we die. No, I'm kidding.

[Marc Maron]

Until it gets weird and I gotta go.

[Ariana Grande]

No, not. I love growing with the people I love until I feel like we're growing apart rather than together. Does that make sense?

[Marc Maron]

Sure. You write a lot of songs about it.

[Ariana Grande]

True. Wow. Oh, my goodness. I wasn't expecting to talk so Much about music today. It's kind of fun.

[Marc Maron]

What did you think we would talk about?

[Ariana Grande]

Oh, more death.

[Marc Maron]

More death.

[Ariana Grande]

I'm kidding. I'm joking.

[Marc Maron]

We got the death out of the way.

[Ariana Grande]

I'm totally joking.

[Marc Maron]

We started with death. We're going towards happy.

[Ariana Grande]

But it's fun. I love having no idea. It's so.

[Marc Maron]

But explain to me, like, there must come a point where after the first record, after you start to understand the popularity and the sort of how many people love what you're doing, then you get savvy. Right. By the second record, you're kind of, like, aware that you are at a precipice of huge pop stardom.

[Ariana Grande]

The pressure was kind of. The pressure built a little bit. Does that make sense?

[Marc Maron]

Sure, yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

Just sort of like the.

[Marc Maron]

Just talking about it. I'm anxious.

[Ariana Grande]

No, no, no, no, no.

[Marc Maron]

But like, it's a big thing.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, it was a sort of, like, interesting era. The next. The albums, the two albums that followed my first felt like they had to kind of prove a point.

[Marc Maron]

Which was what?

[Ariana Grande]

Just Sort of like solidifying my spots. Stick around, you know what I mean? That was the kind of time when I felt like the label was sending me everywhere and we were doing, like, the big pop records and like, they were slightly more pop, and it was like. It was really fun. But I was. I was everywhere every single day. So those two albums kind of had me really doing the work so that I could from then on out, just.

[Marc Maron]

Kind of like, know what the work was.

[Ariana Grande]

Let it happen, you know what I mean? Just sort of change the formula.

[Marc Maron]

But that was also when. Cause the first album you didn't write any, but the second one you started. Right?

[Ariana Grande]

I wrote quite a bit on the first album. You did, but. Yeah, but there was a. It was. I co. Wrote some of the first album, actually. Tattooed Heart, I wrote alone in my room when I was way, way younger and found a home for it on that album, but way younger.

[Marc Maron]

Tattooed Heart. Was that the first song you wrote?

[Ariana Grande]

No, no, no. I think it was maybe like 14 when I wrote it. I don't remember.

[Marc Maron]

But it made it on.

[Ariana Grande]

But it made it on.

[Marc Maron]

It hung around.

[Ariana Grande]

And I think I was just kind of still finding my voice and figuring out how to speak up and say, like, oh, and also, I'm a vocal producer. Would it be okay if. Excuse me, may I comp this myself and sort of like, does that mean write it? No, comp. So comp. Is writing is. Is just sort of, you know, just writing. Whatever. Yeah. And the top Line and the vocal arranging and whatever. And all of that I've always loved to do. But the comping is basically just vocal producing yourself. Like, sitting behind the computer in the pro tool session and, like, looking through the playlist of takes and comping it together yourself. So, like, picking words that you like the takes of or whatever it is, or if the diction is better here, like, picking that one. Or, like, if you like this run better here.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, my God, this must take.

[Ariana Grande]

And it's. Oh, it's heaven. It's so much fun. Yeah, it's really heavenly.

[Marc Maron]

Cause when I listen to pop music, I'm like, there's so much going on. It must take, like, two weeks to do one song.

[Ariana Grande]

Oh, sometimes. Sometimes. But the best part is the vocal arranging, which is just sort of, like, adding all the stacks of harmonies and sort of, like, figuring out where there should be a little response or, like, a little background, like.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

Or like, a big swell of harmonies or whatever it is.

[Marc Maron]

And you kind of. You do that on your own a lot of times.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, it's really fun. And it's really fun to work specifically with Max Martin on it because he's.

[Marc Maron]

Like, the guy, right?

[Ariana Grande]

He's just so wonderful. And we've built such an amazing trust over the years that, like, he'll leave me alone in the room and then let me surprise him with the vocal arranging that I've done, or, like, whatever it is. And it's so fun.

[Marc Maron]

What is a guy like that?

[Ariana Grande]

We love to nerd out together.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. What's a guy? Because he kind of invented modern pop music somehow.

[Ariana Grande]

Truly. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And what is a guy like that? Like, how does that work when you're working with a producer? Is it what makes him such an amazing producer? Is it his sense of arrangement? Is it his sense of rhythm or sound? I mean, what makes him a signature guy?

[Ariana Grande]

I mean, all of it. I mean, he's truly just a genius in every capacity. Just a freedom to, like, what I'll do with, like, a vocal pass or, like, a melody pass. And then there's, like, a mathematical element that he brings with, like, when we go back and forth. It's really hard to describe, but, like, when we'll go back and forth doing melody, pass it together, it's just kind of this really beautiful dance that we do. I don't know. But he's so genius. And the best thing about him, obviously, other than being the greatest producer of our time, is just no ego. There's no ego there at all. Yeah, there's no ego there at all. There's endless curiosity and like we said, point of view and curiosity and that intention leading the way of just like, oh, what's the most interesting and beautiful thing we can make today? Not like, oh, how can we shatter the. You know, it's. There's no. It's just. He's such an art forward, but it's not economics person. He's an egoless person. So you can really. Yeah, I just. I love him. We had such a beautiful time working with him.

[Marc Maron]

If he has no ego, you can interface and create together without argument.

[Ariana Grande]

You have to earn that sort of trust together. And. Yeah, but he's also just so curious and open and wonderfully welcoming in that way.

[Marc Maron]

It's so weird because, like, talking to you, like, you know, because I, whatever. I play my dumb music and I've talked to musicians before and at some point, not too long ago, I realized that the life of being a musician is that, you know, you don't live a regular life. You spend, you know, days and days and weeks and weeks in the studio doing this stuff. And like, some part of me thought like, well, that's kind. There's a freedom to that. But the drive to make the thing right could get frustrating. But the way you're describing it, the whole thing is just this process of discovery and the process is exciting.

[Ariana Grande]

Well, I think it depends on the room and it depends on your process and it depends on your collaborators process, stuff like that. I mean, I've been like, when I was young, when we were making A Dangerous Woman, which is my third album, or maybe it was my everything, I don't remember. But we would spend such a long time working on a pre chorus. We would spend weeks and weeks and weeks. And then I finally was like, let's bounce around, let's bounce around. It's not there. Let's bounce around and let's play and let's do a new melody, pass on something, hand me a mic and I'll just sing and I'll just try new things and then we'll find something else. And then guess what? We'll come, we'll bounce around and that will be there when we come back. And that's, I think when I discovered that's how I'm able to be like my most productive creative self is when I like sort of take that pressure off if it's not pouring out of me. Like, I'm not going to shove my head in the sand until it comes out right. I just, I don't have That I have a perfectionist tendency in a different way.

[Marc Maron]

And, like, if it's not right, you don't get frustrated and say, fuck it. Let's come back in a week. You're just sort of like, let's open it up and. And try some other places.

[Ariana Grande]

I just sort of like to let the right thing fall out. If there's a beat that I love, but it's not pouring out in that moment, I'll save it in my favorites folder, and then I'll come back to it the next day, and it will be there that day, because I know there's something there.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

Like, I know enough to know if I hear something, a track or something that, like, inspires me that it'll be there if it's when it's supposed to be there.

[Marc Maron]

And also, you have this complete control over this, you know, massive vocal range. So I guess over time, as you.

[Ariana Grande]

Why, thank you.

[Marc Maron]

Kind of got control of your instrument, that it opened up a lot of avenues for you to experiment with.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, I think so. I think so.

[Marc Maron]

Is that just more innate, you know, that, like, it just. You don't think that way, like, you know, like. Well, if I take it up to this octave and we can go down from here, and that kind of. You just kind of feel it out.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. I think it's emotional. I think it all comes back to intention, like you said, and point of view. It's like a. If this adds to the story, then it'll become higher, you know?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

What's making you laugh?

[Marc Maron]

Because, like, for me, singing in and of itself is so terrifying that, you know, I feel so vulnerable, and it took me years to do it in public, and I. You know, I don't do it professionally, but I wanted to do it. Cause I like doing it. But just the act of hearing my voice with no real control over it, it almost makes me cry because I feel so, you know, like, exposed.

[Ariana Grande]

But that's so beautiful.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Yeah. It's. It's hard, you know, but it is beautiful. But I can't. I can only imagine that if you have control over that and you're comfortable in that vulnerability that, you know, your. Your palette just becomes so big, and you can, like, connect whatever emotion you want to, whatever sort of vocalizing you want to do.

[Ariana Grande]

Well, I think so. I think it's. It's helpful, especially when you're, you know, doing a musical movie or something like that, where it's like that, where you got a lot of takes driving the story really? You know, and we have the. We have the ability to sing live.

[Marc Maron]

So that's. And that was in you early too, because the musical acting, you had to connect it to action.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And so the script in and of itself gives you the emotional outline that you have to. To, you know, what the story is, the lyrics.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. And.

[Marc Maron]

And but also in a movie, like in. In Wicked, I mean, there's, you know, you're building scenes.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So there's emotional arcs to every scene. And you can just sing to that.

[Ariana Grande]

And you can sing to that. And then also you can be singing one thing and feeling one thing and saying one thing and doing a totally other thing with your eyes.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

You know, which is the beautiful part about working. Yeah. Well, yes. And we're working with a camera. It's different than doing it on stage, where you have to play to the last row in the house and everything has to be larger than life and you get to come in with a close up.

[Marc Maron]

It's amazing how you never did Wicked on stage, right?

[Ariana Grande]

I never did Wicked on stage, no.

[Marc Maron]

And you know, in this, like, I'm so happy that it's so successful.

[Ariana Grande]

I'm so happy as well. I'm so grateful to.

[Marc Maron]

Isn't it crazy?

[Ariana Grande]

It's really beautiful to see how many people it's touched.

[Marc Maron]

It's wild because, like, a musical is a big gambler.

[Ariana Grande]

It's crazy, right? I was like, I hope theater nerds love it.

[Marc Maron]

So when did. And I'm sure you've talked about this a lot, but what was your relationship with Wicked before you took the role?

[Ariana Grande]

I adored it. It was my favorite musical since I was 10.

[Marc Maron]

Really? That musical, See, it's been around that long.

[Ariana Grande]

I loved it more than anything. And it was kind of the dream of my life, was to be a part of it in some capacity, whether it was on Broadway, whether it was. Whatever it was. I was stalking Mark Platt for 10 years.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

But, you know, when I found out that they were gonna make it into a movie, I was on the Sweetener Tour and I was freaking out because I was like, is this happening now? If it's happening right now, I'm gonna need to figure out a plan how to get off the tour to pay everyone in about. Just pay everyone, take care of everyone. Because a lot of people work on this show, not just me. And, you know, I take that very seriously and I'll figure it out with my fans. But if this is happening now, I need to get into vocal lessons, I need to get into acting. Lessons I need to get ready right now.

[Marc Maron]

Really? Like, what do you need from vocal lessons at this point?

[Ariana Grande]

Well, it's a totally different vocal track than what I usually sing. I had to train myself to sing opera. I trained with Eric Vitro, my vocal coach, for three months before my first audition, so that I could sound like an authentic coloratura soprano. Because Glinda's voice. Glinda's vocal track is completely different than what I usually sing.

[Marc Maron]

What do you usually sing in musical terms?

[Ariana Grande]

Well, I mean, it's just a very different placement. It's pop music and it's. I usually use my mix and sometimes my belt, but when I do my. Like, when I sing high, high, high stuff, it's usually in a whistle register, which is, like, very different than a, you know, operatic. Full falsetto.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

That kind of coloratura sound.

[Marc Maron]

So you had no real experience in that. And. And. But because. So what's a vocal coach do with you? Like, you know, like, do they say, like, look, you know how to sing, but let's learn this.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. So basically, it's just kind of training the muscles to do new tricks, like any other muscle in the body. Just kind of like, using. Doing exercises.

[Marc Maron]

Was it hard?

[Ariana Grande]

It was really hard. Yeah, it was really hard. Actually, the other day I was, like, listening. I was on a long flight, and I went all the way back just because I was feeling, like, you know, nostalgic, and I was feeling, like, emotional. And Eric had texted me congratulating me, and he was just emotional because we worked so hard for this role. And I went all the way back to listen to the very beginning. And it's just crazy to hear the difference, like, week to week, in how that upper register strengthened and began to sound slowly more and more technically correct, like how it was supposed to be for the role.

[Marc Maron]

Now, had you been, like, was this impressive preparation for an audition or you've been offered the role?

[Ariana Grande]

No, no, no, no, no. This is my. This was in preparation for my first audition where they had me sing for both roles, even though I was definitely certainly a Glinda and coming in for Glinda, for sure, Sure. I think they just didn't know if I'd be able to sing with Glinda part. So I think because publicly I had only sang Elphaba songs and I sang the wizard and I on the. The Wicked anniversary theme, but on some.

[Marc Maron]

Level, who the fuck else is gonna do it? Like, who's. What is that list?

[Ariana Grande]

That's so kind. But, no, I mean, the thing Is. Is that she requires so much more than people, like, realize or than that I. That there would be no reason for them to assume that I could act this or sing this.

[Marc Maron]

But of course you can act. You're so funny. Everyone knows you're funny. And you can do things and sketch and snl.

[Ariana Grande]

Well, that is so kind. But just there's. But with Glinda, there's, like, that she goes to other places, and there's so much beneath the surface that's, like, really broken and really real. And there has to be a real person with insecurities and traumas and a human heartbeat underneath the surface for that comedy to land. Because comedy's just telling the truth. We don't play the jokes. We just say the stuff. And there'll be a person there and dimension and nuance and.

[Marc Maron]

So you're able to tap into your trauma and depth of brokenness.

[Ariana Grande]

Well, to her is. I'm not good at using mine for acting. I'm not. It's distracting, really. I had to use Glinda's. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So you had to fabricate it.

[Ariana Grande]

I had to just learn her inside and out.

[Marc Maron]

But when you draw from.

[Ariana Grande]

Helped me.

[Marc Maron]

Right. But, like, emotionally, you Must.

[Ariana Grande]

You find the balance between. Of course, yes. There are certain parallels between us and in our lives that feel really adjacent, that are inevitable, that they tap on my own sort of traumas and my own sort of pain. Of course. And that's very. It's interesting to kind of notice that, acknowledge it, feel it, and then bring it back to Glinda immediately so that I can be honoring her and staying in her body and staying in her.

[Marc Maron]

Experience and also be able to repeat it, take after take.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

Without it triggering your own.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes. It's nice to acknowledge that connection and find it and say, okay, here's where I've felt that kind of grief, that kind of loss, that kind of insecurity, that kind of fear, and then say, okay, but what. What's Glinda's trigger here?

[Marc Maron]

Sure.

[Ariana Grande]

I want to use Glinda's trigger.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. So you load up, basically.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. I just get to know. I tried to just get to know her as much as possible, but. Yeah, but, you know, there was so much to prove. There was really so much to prove. I felt like I had everything working against me. I felt like I had so much stacked up against me for getting the role. Yeah. I thought that it would be almost impossible for me to get it. I knew I wanted to do everything I could to earn it, and I wanted to do as much work as I humanly possibly could to prove that I could be the person, that I could disappear and erase any sort of traces of familiarity and, you know, all of that is possible.

[Marc Maron]

All your Ariana Grande ness.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes. And become a character like any other actress or actor could or would. But it really took a lot of. It took a lot. It was an uphill battle. And, you know, John has spoken about it and we've spoken about it a lot. And I'm so grateful that the audition process was as thorough as it was, because I love Wicked so much. I didn't want it to go to me if it wasn't meant to go to me.

[Marc Maron]

But that's interesting that you were both aware of who you were in the world in terms of your popularity and success and what. Definitely find that. And the talent was, you know, undeniable. But the question was, she needed to separate, right?

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, I needed to disappear into her.

[Marc Maron]

And you were aware of that from the beginning?

[Ariana Grande]

I was.

[Marc Maron]

And what was the process like when they first put you in with Cynthia?

[Ariana Grande]

Okay, so the funny thing is, we didn't chemistry read together at any point. I had my first audition, then my callback, and then my third, which was a screen test with two different actresses, two different Elphabas, and neither of which were Cynthia Erivo. But somehow she tested with two different Glindas. Yeah, neither of them were me, and we both were cast. And John just went, like, blindly and believed that it had to be them. He was like, I know two things. I know that she's Elphaba and I know that she's Glinda, so we're gonna have to figure the rest out.

[Marc Maron]

Well, but that must have been interesting because of the dynamic that plays out on screen, that you didn't really know each other and you'd already both fully put these characters together for yourself.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

So that must have been a very exciting first meeting.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes, it was amazing. It was really special. The first time we met, we sang together at John's house, and Stephen Schwartz accompanied us on the piano. We sang for good, and it was really emotional. It was really special, and we felt really safe and good.

[Marc Maron]

Did you cry?

[Ariana Grande]

I did. I cried my eyes out. Of course I did.

[Marc Maron]

Did she cry?

[Ariana Grande]

I think so. I think so, yes. I think we were both crying for this whole. This whole thing.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

No, but it was good. I mean, I think the thing that was most important that we did was call each other up right away and say, like, hey, this is. This is. This is big and heavy and it's gonna require so much of us. This is not going to work if. If we don't have each other's backs. Every second of this and every.

[Marc Maron]

That was the first text.

[Ariana Grande]

And in every. It was literally one of our first calls. We just got very real right away. And I was like, I want you to know there's nothing that you can't talk to me about. There's nothing you can. That you need to avoid. There's nothing that we can't work through together.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Ariana Grande]

We have to build a very true safety within each other. Otherwise all of this doesn't work the same way. Like, it just doesn't and won't. And also we deserve to have that safety in each other for this. And it was beautiful. And that was a commitment that we made, and it grew from there, and we continue to nourish that pact.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Wow. So it's sort of like you create one of the strongest friendships in your life out of necessity to honor a piece of art.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Wow. And it held. You guys are good.

[Ariana Grande]

And it held. And it held. And it held.

[Marc Maron]

But the process of shooting the movie must have been daunting and exhausting. And, you know, there's flying involved.

[Ariana Grande]

There was so much hard, beautiful work. But I have to say, like, I. There was. I mean, every day was a 13 to 15 hour day. Like, every single day. And there was never a moment for me where I didn't want to savor every second or be there. And, you know, there was this moment. Oh, my God, Jack, our first lady, who's so. Such a amazing human being. I love him so much. But he. He came into my. To my tent, which is what we had on set because our trailers were quite far away. We never had that much downtime, so we had little tents right off to.

[Marc Maron]

The side almost every scene.

[Ariana Grande]

Like, literally a tow out of Munchkinland. We had a little tent with heaters in it and little snacks to sit.

[Marc Maron]

Down for the director's chairs.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. Just to sit for a few minutes. And Jack came in and was like, ari, I'm so sorry to bother you. He was like, would it be okay if we broke your turnaround for tomorrow? And I was like, jack, I said, look at me.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

I've been waiting 20 years to sing Defying Gravity and to be Linda. You can break my turnaround however many times you need to. And I think. And he got really emotional. It was a really sweet moment, I think, because it was just such a big week for all of us. And it was divine gravity Coming up. And he was just being protective and coming in, and I was like, don't fucking think about it one more time. We're fine. I'll be here. I'll sleep here. I don't give a fuck. I'll sleep here in my little pink tent. I don't care. And that was the kind of gratitude that I tried to lead with every single day.

[Marc Maron]

And it paid off.

[Ariana Grande]

And we had a family who took care of us, and we had coffees and waters.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

And we got to take care of each other and do the hardest and best work. Most gratifying work of our lives.

[Marc Maron]

And you're gonna do it again.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes. And we're doing it again. Well, both films are shot.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, that's done.

[Ariana Grande]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

Okay.

[Ariana Grande]

But we get to do this part again, which is really fun.

[Marc Maron]

Sure.

[Ariana Grande]

Now we're doing a press tour. About the press tour. About the press tour.

[Marc Maron]

And how do you deal with. Because I know you don't do a lot of these longer talks.

[Ariana Grande]

I'm having the best time.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, good.

[Ariana Grande]

Thank you for having me.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. I'm glad you came.

[Ariana Grande]

I knew I would. I love your show.

[Marc Maron]

Thank you. I'm glad you made it. How do you. How have you kind of wrangled and kind of effectively managed, you know, what comes at you from the world? You know, online, social media, tabloid shit. I mean, how did you have to. It seems like you had to take some time to figure out how to insulate or get boundaries around that stuff.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. It's interesting because it's something that there kind of just has to be a boundary with.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, absolutely. Or you'd lose your mind.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. And it's a strange. It's just a strange phenomenon. It's a strange thing that you kind of have to accept being a part of your life because you have this massive gift of being able to be an artist, and you have this tremendous, tremendous privilege of being able to play your dream role and make art and make music and have fans and have this connection with. This human connection with people who want to hear what you have to sing about or want to see your performances, and you get to connect in that way. And I lead with acceptance. I kind of just have to have a healthy boundary there and understand that choosing this life is, you know, it's a tricky one. And I'm lucky that I have just so much love to cushion me when I feel like it's the weight of it.

[Marc Maron]

You know what I mean?

[Ariana Grande]

Like, I have, in every direction, so much love to be that cushion for me. When it gets heavy and when it gets. It's stupid and loud and present, it's. It's strange. It started. I mean, I was 19 when it, when all of that nonsense started happening to me.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

And it's just a crazy piece of the puzzle and I never. It's something that you work so hard to kind of try to understand and you know, it never, it would never make sense to me. Does that make sense? I just love art and that's all I care about. So it's just weird that that's a part of my. Part of it.

[Marc Maron]

Preying on your personal life and speculating about things.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, it's very strange. But it started when I was so young.

[Marc Maron]

With what.

[Ariana Grande]

With just like my, my body or like rumors about my relationships or about my team or about my mom or about people I love. Like there was just no limit and I was so young and.

[Marc Maron]

And then. Did it kind of break you down at that point and you.

[Ariana Grande]

Oh yeah. I mean it was. It's. It's impossible to navigate. And that's why I, whenever I have the chance to talk about it, I talk about how I think it's so important that these record labels and these studios, these TV studios and whatever it is, these big production companies make it a part of the contract. When you sign on to do something that's going to change your life in that way.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

On that scale, you need a therapist to be seeing several times a week.

[Marc Maron]

Really.

[Ariana Grande]

Because if this hits the way that we know it's going to, because we're the big studio, we're the ones funneling this money into this plan. We know it's going to work because this is what we do. We know how your life is going to change. We see how it can change and impact people in a negative way. We should be responsible for protecting you from that.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Ariana Grande]

So that's why I try to talk about that. I think that when these people are cast in these life changing roles or in these, when they get that record deal, when they get that moment that should be non negotiable in the contract.

[Marc Maron]

That you have somebody to help you.

[Ariana Grande]

Compartmentalize everything that comes with being an artist. Because to be an artist, you are a vulnerable person with your heart on your sleeve. To choose to do art, you have to be a wounded person of some sort, you know, like art in any and every capacity. It comes from some place, some sort of, you know, soulful place. And you're a vulnerable person to choose to choose art. So the same person that is Meant to do art is the same exact person who's not meant to deal with that shit. Does that make sense?

[Marc Maron]

Of course, yeah. Because it's just like tear you apart. Yeah. If you're going through the world, you know, showing yourself and having an open heart and engaging in a creative thing that when predatory media or people lock into you, there's a persistence to it and if you can't have a boundary that whether you need help or not to maintain, can destroy you.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. And also where you put your energy is so important and you want to.

[Marc Maron]

Be able to keep the focus.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes. And also it's just a very protective thing to know that where you put your energy, it expands in certain ways. And learning that is such a pivotal thing when it comes to self protection and to being able to proceed and choose art and have that be your life.

[Marc Maron]

Right. But art at the level you're doing it too, it's not just about the public and the, the clickbait and the tabloids and everything else, but you also become limited in how you can live your life to a certain degree, publicly. Right.

[Ariana Grande]

Expand upon that.

[Marc Maron]

Well, I mean that, you know, it's hard for you to disappear in public, I would imagine.

[Ariana Grande]

No, no, no, I have, I. The thing is, is like I've created, and this is something I'm so proud of. I've created such a healthy life for myself. Yeah. And achieved a level of normalcy like with my kind of my routine and what I have found that works. And like I, I need it for myself, for my, for my mental health. I, I do my thing.

[Marc Maron]

What you like? What do you like to do?

[Ariana Grande]

I love walking, I love exploring, I love doing normal anything. You travel and stuff.

[Marc Maron]

Do you have fun, hobbies?

[Ariana Grande]

Oh, well, I haven't in a long time. I mean, hobbies, yes. But I haven't like gone on a vacation in 47 years. But, but no, that normalcy is so important to me. It's such a healthy thing.

[Marc Maron]

And you're able to do it.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. And it's nice. And also like when I do meet someone or a fan or a waiter at a restaurant or something, like, I have such a beautiful, positive interaction. And that's the real stuff.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Ariana Grande]

Like, that's real. That is such a beautiful, special thing to know. And that kind of human connection is just so much louder than the negatives.

[Marc Maron]

Sure. Yeah. And it's immediate and it's.

[Ariana Grande]

And it's emotional and it makes me cry every time.

[Marc Maron]

That's great.

[Ariana Grande]

I stopped for a cup of tea the other day. And there was a waiter who had a tattoo on his arm of me.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

And I literally. It was like a cute little, like, character, like a little anime style. And I just started crying. It was so sweet. And we. And we hugged and we met, and I feel so grateful again. Like, you know, that there are good.

[Marc Maron]

People in the world and that also that you've. You've been doing this long enough to. Where there's literally people that have grown up with you and they're. And they have a relationship with who you are and.

[Ariana Grande]

Same. And I've grown up with them.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

And we have, you know, this. We've had this, like, lifelong bond and relationship, and it's just like. It's really. It's beautiful.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

And it's like, it's okay that I have my people.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And a lot of them.

[Ariana Grande]

Well, it's nice, but, you know.

[Marc Maron]

No, it's beautiful. And I'm glad you're handling it all.

[Ariana Grande]

Thank you.

[Marc Maron]

And you do great work.

[Ariana Grande]

Oh, my therapist. I love her so much. We do great work. We do great work.

[Marc Maron]

Good.

[Ariana Grande]

That's true.

[Marc Maron]

When you do great work as an artist. And I. I'm glad you've made these. Time to transcend your cough.

[Ariana Grande]

I wouldn't have missed it.

[Marc Maron]

Well, thank you. And it was great talking to you.

[Ariana Grande]

Thank you. Thank you so much.

[Marc Maron]

There you go. That was a real conversation with a pop superstar and an actress and a funny person and a profoundly, magically talented individual. She's up for best supporting Actress at the Oscars. Wicked is still in theaters and available to rent on digital platforms. Hang out for a minute, folks. Okay, look, we typically get quite a few Oscar nominees in the garage around this time of year. And on Thursday, you'll hear my talk with best director nominee James Mangold, and we talk about his movies, his influences, and, of course, Bob Dylan.

[James Mangold]

I caused alarm bells to go off in the Dylan camp because they read my script and were like this, that this is not the mandate we had wanted for this movie. We wanted this to be about the music, not about Bob's personal life.

[Marc Maron]

More interesting.

[James Mangold]

And I was like, I don't know how to do that. I don't know how to make a movie that's just about the music. And Covid hit and kind of killed the movie for the near term. Anyway.

[Marc Maron]

Was this before you had focused on this one particular time, or was that always the arc?

[James Mangold]

That was always the arc. There was always the arc, but the anticipation, like the book. Elijah Walt. Book is not really. Doesn't really delve into the personal. But to put the book into film form without that other stuff, to me would have been a crime, like it would. It would have removed the music from all context, personally.

[Marc Maron]

But taking the heart out of the.

[James Mangold]

Movie, well, at least as I saw it. So the. So we were at a kind of moment of tension or impasse, and then Covid hit and in a sense, made it irrelevant. And then about two months into Covid, this is 2020, I get a call from Bob's manager, who goes, well, you know, Bob's tour was canceled. I'm like, okay. And he goes, so he asked to read the script.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[James Mangold]

And I go, okay. And he goes, and he likes it. And so suddenly, the team, Team Bob had completely changed because Bob had a different point of view than what they had anticipated.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[James Mangold]

And he goes, and he'd like to meet you. So then that became a series of meetings with Dylan where we discussed the script and his life and this period and a million other things. But the point being that I suddenly had license to go to places that his team had said I could.

[Marc Maron]

You can hear my talk with James Mangold this Thursday. To get every episode of WTF Ad free, sign up for WTF Plus. You can go to the link in the episode description or go to wtfpod.com and click on WTF Plus. And remember, before we go, this podcast is hosted by Acast. Here's some of the guitar. Like I play it. Boomer lives Monkey and La Fonda cat angels everywhere.