Episode 1626 - Jane Marie

Summary

WTF with Marc Maron Podcast – Episode 1626: Jane Marie

Release Date: March 17, 2025

In Episode 1626 of the WTF with Marc Maron Podcast, host Marc Maron engages in a profound and revealing conversation with Jane Marie, a seasoned journalist and podcast creator known for her investigative work on multi-level marketing (MLM) schemes, the wellness industry, and life coaching. This detailed summary captures the essence of their discussion, highlighting key topics, insightful critiques, and personal anecdotes shared by Jane Marie.

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1. Introduction to Jane Marie and Her Work

Background and Career Path

Jane Marie provides a comprehensive overview of her career trajectory, starting from her tenure at This American Life to launching her own podcast, The Dream. Her work initially focused on exposing the intricacies of MLMs, later expanding to scrutinize the wellness industry and life coaching.

[11:57] Jane Marie: "I've been working on this podcast for years, diving deep into MLMs, wellness, and life coaching to uncover the underlying mechanisms that exploit individuals."

2. Exposing Multi-Level Marketing Schemes

The Deceptive Allure of MLMs

Jane delves into the deceptive nature of MLMs, drawing parallels between these schemes and broader societal issues. She critiques the foundational principles of MLMs, emphasizing their exploitative structure and the psychological manipulation involved.

[44:23] Jane Marie: "MLMs sell a faux meritocracy, convincing people that their financial success depends solely on personal effort, ignoring systemic inequalities."

Impact on Individuals and Communities

She discusses the detrimental effects MLMs have on individuals, especially those from marginalized backgrounds, highlighting how these schemes prey on aspirations and vulnerabilities.

[52:27] Jane Marie: "It's not about selling a product; it's a numbers game where people are perpetually recruiting others, siphoning money without offering real value."

3. Transitioning to the Wellness and Supplements Industry

Critical Examination of Health Supplements

Moving beyond MLMs, Jane examines the wellness industry's reliance on unregulated supplements. She critiques the lack of scientific validation and the marketing strategies that mislead consumers into believing in pseudo-scientific solutions.

[49:05] Jane Marie: "The supplement industry thrives on the same principles as MLMs—selling the illusion of control over one's health without substantive evidence."

Consumer Vulnerability and Exploitation

Jane highlights how the absence of regulatory oversight allows the industry to exploit consumers' fears and desires for better health, often at exorbitant costs.

[50:09] Jane Marie: "There's no regulation on vitamins and supplements, leading to inconsistencies and making consumers easy targets for exploitation."

4. The Rise and Pitfalls of Life Coaching

Life Coaching as a Modern Scam

Jane transitions to the life coaching industry, portraying it as another contemporary scam that capitalizes on individuals' search for self-improvement and meaning.

[55:23] Jane Marie: "Life coaching offers a façade of self-actualization, providing little more than a platform for coaches to validate their own sense of purpose while offering questionable advice."

Societal Implications and Personal Validation

She discusses how life coaching not only exploits clients but also serves as a means for coaches to affirm their own identities and societal roles.

[60:12] Jane Marie: "Becoming a life coach is as much about the coach's need for validation as it is about helping others, creating a loop of dependency and exploitation."

5. Personal Insights and Family Background

Navigating a Complex Family Dynamic

Jane shares personal stories about her upbringing, revealing a tumultuous family environment marked by emotional affairs, parental struggles, and early independence.

[25:39] Jane Marie: "Growing up, my parents' instability forced me into a parentified role, shaping my resilience and my drive to seek meaningful work."

Overcoming Substance Abuse and Rebellion

She recounts her teenage rebellion, substance abuse struggles, and the eventual intervention by her father, emphasizing the lasting impact of these experiences on her life and career.

[32:38] Jane Marie: "My descent into drug use was a misguided attempt to find autonomy, but my father's intervention helped me redirect my path towards purposeful work."

6. Reflections on Capitalism and Societal Structures

Critique of the American Dream

Jane offers a scathing critique of the American Dream, arguing that it perpetuates a myth of individual meritocracy while masking systemic injustices and economic disparities.

[47:04] Jane Marie: "The American Dream sells the illusion that anyone can succeed through hard work alone, ignoring the structural barriers that impede true equality."

Intersection with Modern Politics

She connects her critiques of MLMs, wellness scams, and life coaching to broader political trends, particularly the rise of ideologies that undermine empathy and promote divisiveness.

[46:30] Jane Marie: "These industries thrive in a political climate that devalues empathy and promotes individualism over collective well-being."

7. Current Projects and Future Directions

The Dream Podcast's Evolution

Jane discusses the evolution of The Dream, now in its fourth season with a broader scope that includes investigative pieces on abortion laws and other pressing societal issues.

[67:29] Jane Marie: "Our latest episodes tackle critical issues like the criminalization of abortion, shedding light on the dire consequences of regressive policies."

Exploring New Themes

She outlines her intent to explore diverse topics without the constraints of corporate oversight, aiming to maintain authenticity and depth in her storytelling.

[61:41] Jane Marie: "By breaking free from corporate control, I can pursue stories that genuinely matter and present them without sensationalism."

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Conclusion

Episode 1626 presents a compelling dialogue between Marc Maron and Jane Marie, navigating through complex themes of exploitation within MLMs, the wellness industry, and life coaching. Jane's incisive analysis coupled with her personal narratives offers listeners a nuanced understanding of the systemic issues underpinning these industries. Her dedication to uncovering the truth and advocating for societal change underscores the importance of informed journalism in combating modern-day scams and fostering a more equitable society.

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Notable Quotes:

• Jane Marie [44:23]: "MLMs sell a faux meritocracy, convincing people that their financial success depends solely on personal effort, ignoring systemic inequalities."

• Jane Marie [52:27]: "It's not about selling a product; it's a numbers game where people are perpetually recruiting others, siphoning money without offering real value."

• Jane Marie [49:05]: "The supplement industry thrives on the same principles as MLMs—selling the illusion of control over one's health without substantive evidence."

• Jane Marie [55:23]: "Life coaching offers a façade of self-actualization, providing little more than a platform for coaches to validate their own sense of purpose while offering questionable advice."

• Jane Marie [47:04]: "The American Dream sells the illusion that anyone can succeed through hard work alone, ignoring the structural barriers that impede true equality."

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This summary provides an in-depth overview of Episode 1626, encapsulating the critical discussions and personal reflections shared by Jane Marie. It serves as a comprehensive guide for those who seek to understand the multifaceted issues addressed in this enlightening episode.

Transcript

[Marc Maron]

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And when you're ready to launch, use offer code WTF to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. That's squarespace.com WTF offer code WTF. All right, let's do the show. All right, let's do this. How are you? What the. What the Buddies? What the Nicks? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is podcast. Welcome to it. How's it going? What's happening? Are you all right? I hope you're holding up. I got nothing but worry, man. I have nothing but worry in my head about all things. And, you know, I'm very tired of this idea of Trump Derangement Syndrome. Oh, you mean the normal, rational reaction by caring people who are concerned about the future of democracy and the safety of themselves and their loved ones and people that are at a profound disadvantage that that concern and empathy and the panic ensuing from the situation is somehow mentally inappropriate. Go fuck yourself if you think that. Hold on to your brain. It's not Trump Derangement Syndrome. It's the normal reaction to the collapse of everything we know and understand. And look, you know, you're up against people that really believe in this process, but just know that your heart's in the right place. Can you dig it? Okay. Durham, North Carolina. I'll be at the Carolina Theater of Durham on Friday, March 21st. Charlotte, North Carolina. I'm at the Knight Theater on Saturday, March 22nd. And I'll be in Charleston, South Carolina, at the Charleston Music hall on Sunday, March 23rd. Then Skokie, Illinois. I'm coming to the North Shore center for the Performing arts on Friday, March 28th in Joliet, Illinois. I'm at the Rialto Square Theater on Saturday, March 29th. Then I'm coming to Michigan, Toronto, Vermont, New Hampshire. And tickets are now available for my special taping in Brooklyn, New York at the BAM Harvey Theater on May 10th. Go to wtfpod.com tour for all my dates and links to tickets. Okay, do that. Today I'm talking to Jane Marie now. I've known her for years. She's a journalist and podcast creator. She used to work on this American Life. And then she launched her own podcast called the Dream. The first season focused on pyramid schemes, and then she did seasons looking at the wellness industry and life coaches. The Dream is now in its fourth season with new episodes weekly. Ah, yes, the future of medicine. The future of medicine, of treatment, falls within the realms of the wellness industry, yoga teachers, life coaches, and guys with big ideas about what to eat. That's the future of treatment. Don't worry, you can beat a virus if you just kind of focus and breathe and come from your core. Fight the virus from your core. Yeah, do that in a downward dog. Sure, man. Just jack yourself up on vitamin A. That'll knock out hundreds of years of scientific research into how to maintain health up against the environmental pollutants and the evolution of viral bodies. Yeah, just think your way out of it. Take some vitamins, suckers. Yeah, great. Great. Dealing with the shittiest Kennedy. So, yeah, I've been kind of obsessed with this idea. What do I fester about on a daily basis other than the future of the world? But it's just sort of like this, this notion of comedians who fought for free speech. And I'll say it again, it's always been free. Sometimes you get a little reaction, but sometimes that's what you're looking for. And if it's negative reaction, that doesn't mean you can't say it. So after all this kind of, you know, kind of whining about censorship from the left, quote unquote, I mean, what do we have? You know, you get these comics that compare themselves to Lenny Bruce, that it's the same fight that Lenny Bruce was fighting and it really isn't. You know, he was definitely fighting for free speech. But a lot of the stuff that he would use in terms of, you know, stereotypes was to diminish the stereotypes. That famous bit of him in front of an audience calling out all the different stereotypes of all the different people was not to marginalize them more, but to make people realize that there are, you know, names for all kinds of people, and none of them have any meaning because we're all people. It's sort of different than, you know, the idea of focusing in on two or three stereotypes of marginal or minority groups just because you get a little kick out of saying it. And it's just that I don't know how everything has been inverted, how, you know, the idea of Lenny Bruce has been absorbed by exactly the people that he would have criticized, or the idea of comedy in terms of being aggressive, like Bill Hicks, has been appropriated by the people he would criticize or people like Hunter S. Thompson or whatever. The point is, the idea of speaking truth to power is exactly that. You speak truth to power, even if there's a risk to it in order to get that truth out there. It seems we're entering a phase where the sort of angle of free speech is to speak power to truth. Because ideologically, so many of these people that are, you know, yammering about free speech is their freedom to speak louder than those they are indicting with their free speech that they're insisting, take a joke, even though the language marginalizes them even more. And ideologically, there's a lot behind it in terms of wanting to quell their voices, to shut them up, to not give them a position. The entire politics of this nation at this point in time, through the attack on dei, is about diminishing the voices of those who may not have them in the public sphere. So when you start calling them names because it feels good and you feel free to do that in the particular room you're doing that in, all you're doing is insulating yourself in an ideology that is the current ideology of this country. So, in essence, you are speaking power to truth because you represent that ideology. And there's really no courage in that. Just divisiveness. It's not inclusive because inclusiveness has been deemed bad by this administration and by the current political climate. It's really about, go fuck yourself. But wait, I'm just trying to shut the fuck up. Take a joke. It's something I fester about. It's definitely something I fester about. Along with soy milk and, you know, which boots I'm wearing or whether or not this belt is wrong. Oh, there's always a lot going on in my mind. And also, just, why hasn't this person texted me back? That's ongoing. That is ongoing. Hopefully that'll resolve itself soon without me spiraling into a panic about where that person is all right. Well, that's where I'm at. How you doing? So look, Jane Marie, very interesting. Interesting life, but also the the work she's doing on the Dream is. It's great. The Dream podcast is now in its fourth season with new episodes weekly. You can get it wherever you get podcasts and this is me talking to J. 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I just had that feeling twice and now it's your turn one more time revivalrugs.com WTF with code WTF20 to save 20% you and I have hung out before at different times, different points in your life. Yeah, I know you. Kinda.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I guess when I met you, you were at this American Life. Is that when it was.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And then I met you again when you had a studio.

[Jane Marie]

Yep.

[Marc Maron]

Here in, like, you were running a.

[Jane Marie]

Studio over here in Glendale. I still have it.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, you do?

[Jane Marie]

Atwater. Glendale. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, In Atwater.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, I remember.

[Jane Marie]

I still have.

[Marc Maron]

That's your place.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And do you produce shows out of there?

[Jane Marie]

Yeah, lots of shows, really. I've done. Recently, I made Michelle Obama's book tour podcast. Won a bunch of awards for that. I worked with the Royals. We can get into that.

[Marc Maron]

You did?

[Jane Marie]

I'm the only person. There was, like, a recent article about them, and I was the only person that was like, they're fine. Yeah, whatever.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Jane Marie]

And it went on the Daily Mail as like, what's up with this lady?

[Marc Maron]

Right?

[Jane Marie]

Like, why did she not see all the problems? And I was like, they're rich people who live in Montecito. What are you guys expecting?

[Marc Maron]

Right?

[Jane Marie]

They were perfectly nice. She's very charming. She's so gorgeous.

[Marc Maron]

And you produced her show.

[Jane Marie]

I produced. I was working there before they were figuring out what to do before they left Netflix. He had so many good ideas.

[Marc Maron]

You were working where?

[Jane Marie]

At their house in Montecito.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, so you went out there. You were the one that they chose to sit there and shoot ideas at.

[Jane Marie]

Well, they had another team, and then that team couldn't get anything done. And then they were like, we need to. Bringing the big guns.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And you were the big gun.

[Jane Marie]

I was the big gun.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And you had a nice time out there in Montecito.

[Jane Marie]

It was so sweet. They're in love. They're so hot for each other. It's crazy. Like, they, like. They're like. You know, when you see a couple next to each other and they're trying to be composed because there's some stranger in the room or whatever, they're, like, slapping each other. Stop it. You know.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, really?

[Jane Marie]

Quit with the thing that you just did. Don't touch my leg.

[Marc Maron]

It's a weird thing. My. And I have no real sense of who they are other, you know, as people. But, you know, and maybe it's just because I'm a man, but, like, from the beginning, I was like, that guy's in trouble from.

[Jane Marie]

With her?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

Oh, they're. He's so. He is so into her.

[Marc Maron]

Is he a sweet guy?

[Jane Marie]

He's so sweet.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, good.

[Jane Marie]

He's so sweet. He's flipping weird. I mean, like, look.

[Marc Maron]

Well, yeah, he's a. He's a prince.

[Jane Marie]

Oh, I put my foot in my mouth once. We were talking about some story ideas.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

And everything. Every person that he wanted to talk to for this one show we were maybe gonna work on.

[Marc Maron]

What so bad. What'd you do?

[Jane Marie]

They all had dead moms. And I said, well, maybe it's cause they all have dead moms. And then I was like, oops. Oh, no, I forgot you're also someone with a dead mom. He was totally gracious about it. Yeah, he's very charming. He's a complete weirdo. Who is, you know, who is a prince and also who, you know, the monarchy believes that they were like, anointed by God.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Jane Marie]

So to grow up as a little cute little boy with a dead mom and then be the most famous person or one of the three most famous people. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

People are so fucking fascinated with them. With the royals, like, it's like it was. I was actually in England on, you know, after college or maybe after high school for a month on some exchange program. I was there for the Lady Di Charles wedding. It was crazy.

[Jane Marie]

You're old.

[Marc Maron]

The entire world was crazy. Yeah, I'm old.

[Jane Marie]

I remember watching that wedding in a mall in Tokyo live on a bunch of.

[Marc Maron]

Why were you there? How old were you?

[Jane Marie]

Seven.

[Marc Maron]

Okay. What were you doing in Tokyo at seven?

[Jane Marie]

My dad's best friend lived there and we went and visited the one time.

[Marc Maron]

Or did you go there a lot?

[Jane Marie]

I've been there a couple of times, but that was my first time, so.

[Marc Maron]

And the Michelle Obama thing, what was that?

[Jane Marie]

We went on a book tour and we recorded an episode in every city and put that out.

[Marc Maron]

How'd that do?

[Jane Marie]

It was wonderful. Like, great numbers. We won a bunch of awards and stuff. Oh, oh. But my most. Okay, so I'm back doing the dream again, which is like your thing, a whole story. Yeah, that's my show. But most recently, before the dream relaunched, we paired up with Bradley Cooper's production company, Leah Pictures, and we had signed on to produced someone else's show. And then they dropped out at the last minute. But I was like, we already signed the contract and I need money, you know, so now I'm gonna save this. And I pulled this idea out of my ass and like, they went for it. Like, he was like, yeah, that sounds great. It is a non narrated, fully like documentary style show where we feature one woman kind of audio diary style.

[Marc Maron]

Okay.

[Jane Marie]

Each episode.

[Marc Maron]

So she kind of functions as the narrator that's it?

[Jane Marie]

Yeah. And it's like, all kinds of weird ladies that I love. And it's called Finally a Show About Women that Isn't Just a Thinly Veiled Aspirational Nightmare.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Oh, that's good. It's a long title, but maybe you can make the. What do you call it? The letters Just.

[Jane Marie]

I'm not worried about that. I was just happy that they let us get away with it.

[Marc Maron]

It's great. And you recorded a bunch of those.

[Jane Marie]

A bunch of those.

[Marc Maron]

And they're out.

[Jane Marie]

Yep.

[Marc Maron]

Wow. So you're a big mover and shaker in the podcast world.

[Jane Marie]

I don't know how to do anything else. That's not true. I know how to do a lot of stuff, but I. But this is what I feel. Are you feeling. As far as podcasting goes, I keep thinking, like, I feel like a harpsichord player around the time pianos came out.

[Marc Maron]

I don't know.

[Jane Marie]

Like, I've spent 25 years honing this skill of documentary audio projects, and now everyone has these pianos. And I'm like, so grateful anytime someone lets me still make my weird harpsichord music, you know, like.

[Marc Maron]

What do you mean piano? Like, you're still audio only, right?

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So that's what we do too. But Brendan and I, I mean, I.

[Jane Marie]

Don'T do like, chat show, you know, like, I.

[Marc Maron]

But also we're not doing video. I mean, I think the bigger shift was to video.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

That's the piano, not just the content. Right. Because there was a lot of podcasts around, they came and went. But now people putting together full television studios, that becomes. That's the thing.

[Jane Marie]

And everyone can have one. And you're like, what? Why did I learn the harpsichord? This is like not an easy.

[Marc Maron]

I don't know, I think people. We've decided that people are kind of tiring of that and coming back to analog. So I think we are OGs and also a little easier to deal with.

[Jane Marie]

We are certainly OGs. Yes.

[Marc Maron]

But you started at how do you get here? I mean, I listened to a good chunk of the dream, at least the first season. And the way you weave your life in and out of these stories about the first season was multi level marketing. And then we go into the supplement racket. But through the course of these shows, you're able to kind of have an autobiographical personal engagement with the material and then also explore the material that is foundational to the world we live in now politically and in a corporate way.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And also what's interesting to me is I had read and talked To Kurt Anderson, about the book Fantasyland and the very nature of what you're exploring in the dream is literally foundational to the beginning of this country.

[Jane Marie]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

That the idea that a bunch of religious whack jobs came over here to escape tyranny, perhaps persecution, and then just.

[Jane Marie]

Created this world of where they're tyrannizing and persecuting everyone. Sure.

[Marc Maron]

But also. But just the nature of preaching and snake oil is really the foundation of America.

[Jane Marie]

It is.

[Marc Maron]

And capitalism to some degree, well, it's.

[Jane Marie]

Like making a dollar at any cost. I've interviewed for nothing. For nothing. I know. I interviewed. I remember in 2008, I did this piece with Adam Davidson for this American Life. Right after the crash in 2008, we went down to Wall street and to this bar. Pound and Pence, I think was the name. Yeah. Anyway, like, a douchey. It's one of those bars where I walk in and I cannot tell the difference between any of the men there.

[Marc Maron]

Like, they are. You were living in New York?

[Jane Marie]

Yeah, I was living in New York at the time, and I got into a screaming match with these guys who were bankers who'd just gotten bailed out and were like, you're stupid. If this whole thing, like, ruined your life in any way. Like, I figured out mentally, just, like, dumb.

[Marc Maron]

It's like the idea of Trump derangement syndrome.

[Jane Marie]

If you're not trying to be a billionaire, you must be an idiot.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Jane Marie]

And the reason I still have a job, even though really the truth was they got bailed out. Yeah. But they say. They said to me, the reason I still have a job is because I'm smarter than you. Like, I learned the system. I learned how to game the system.

[Marc Maron]

Well, that's the system. It's all about, you know, winning means, likes and money.

[Jane Marie]

Yep. Yeah. And Ira Glass, my old boss, said to me, there was a story about our show in the. In the New York Times last year. And he was like. I forget the exact quote, but it was something like, Jane has this real, like, ax to grind or something. Like, she feels like life is very unfair and that this country is very. Like, things are unfair.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

But she's funny about it.

[Marc Maron]

That's her saving grace. She has a sense of humor.

[Jane Marie]

About the end, he said it was like he just feels. Or she feels like the world's unjust. And I was like, well, no shit.

[Marc Maron]

But the arc is.

[Jane Marie]

Am I being manic right now? Like, I feel like I'm all over the place. It's okay, because I haven't Seen you in so long. And I'm just. We're like being those old friends, like.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. No, that's what we do here.

[Jane Marie]

What about this? What about this? What about this?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

Okay.

[Marc Maron]

How's your kid?

[Jane Marie]

Perfect.

[Marc Maron]

Good.

[Jane Marie]

I mean, literally. And maybe I should write a book about how to make a perfect child, because my child is perfect.

[Marc Maron]

And you're okay with Julian?

[Jane Marie]

No.

[Marc Maron]

Okay.

[Jane Marie]

He left. I never want to shit talk my daughter's father because. And I learned this when I was becoming a foster mom. I have an adult foster daughter.

[Marc Maron]

You do?

[Jane Marie]

Yeah. But when I was in training to do all of that in classes and stuff. There's very little a father especially can do to make their child not want a connection.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

You know, Very little.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, interesting. Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah. Like, they can do the worst stuff you can imagine and the kid will still like.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah. Their father. And I know that.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

And I know. Yeah. That fostering a relationship between them is way healthier for her than me coming on some podcast.

[Marc Maron]

Sure. Trashing her.

[Jane Marie]

Not some. Your podcast.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

Hopefully I'm raising a kid who's smart enough to figure everyone out.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And also, like.

[Jane Marie]

And it's not my job to step in the middle of that, especially with someone who is her other closest relative. Like, this is. Half of her is this person. And I want her to love him and know him, and I want him to love her because that's very important for her health.

[Marc Maron]

And the whole thing's kind of a. Kind of a crapshoot in terms of, like, you know, once you. I guess I don't have kids because I just didn't.

[Jane Marie]

Because you're not stupid.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Kinda.

[Jane Marie]

No, seriously. I don't recommend it.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. But they are their own people and they will work stuff out. And I guess the trick is to make that struggle as easy as possible with the power that you can.

[Jane Marie]

And also don't protect them from the harsh parts. Self confidence is built by overcoming shittiness.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[Jane Marie]

You know, so I can't.

[Marc Maron]

That never worked for me. The. The.

[Jane Marie]

Do you want me to try right now?

[Marc Maron]

The. Overcoming shittiness, Giving me confidence never worked for me.

[Jane Marie]

It just made me realize we could start today.

[Marc Maron]

Made me realize that there's more shittiness coming.

[Jane Marie]

But you can stand up to it enough to have a home.

[Marc Maron]

Yes. I don't know how that all happened.

[Jane Marie]

But I'm saying grateful. You have a shelter, you have a job.

[Marc Maron]

Yes. Yes. Cats. Well, how did you grow up?

[Jane Marie]

Whoa. Okay. How did I grow up? Where do you want to Start.

[Marc Maron]

Well, I mean, I listened to, like, the incentive or the inspiration for doing this show, this series. The dream was personal. Yeah, but how did that happen?

[Jane Marie]

So my folks met when they were. My mom was in eighth grade and my dad was in ninth grade. And she got elected to student council. And moving into high school, she had to go over there and take a class from the student council in ninth grade. And my mom was like a boobless dork. Like, really short hair, buck teeth, flat chested.

[Marc Maron]

And this is where.

[Jane Marie]

Nerd.

[Marc Maron]

Michigan.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah. In the middle of nowhere. Like, outside of Flint, Michigan, in a rural area. Small, small town. And my dad was also on student council, also a dork, but also, like, became like the superlative king in senior year. You know, like smartest, hottest, greatest athlete, all of this stuff. My mom blossomed also later, but she wrote in her diary in eighth grade, I'm gonna marry Jeff. You know? And they got married when she was 17.

[Marc Maron]

Okay.

[Jane Marie]

And moved to Ann Arbor, Michigan, where my dad played football for Bo Schembechler. And then I was born a couple years later, and he was like, this is the lore. Who knows if our parents are ever telling us? You know what I mean?

[Marc Maron]

No, you gotta wait till they get dementia to fish out the truth.

[Jane Marie]

Seriously, it's coming soon. Well, no, it's not, actually, because they're like, not that old, but I'm doing.

[Marc Maron]

A whole bit about that. Are you the poetry of kind of trying to excavate, you know, information, what really happened?

[Jane Marie]

Yeah, things are going awry lately with both my parents. We're like, they've rewritten everything at the moment.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, really?

[Jane Marie]

So I think we're gonna swing back. Well, so the lore is that my mom got pregnant and she was working at a pizza place, and my dad was playing football and just like, going to school. And then he decided that if he was going to have a kid, he didn't want to go into the NFL and, like, have his knees broken and not be able to take care of me. So then he went to his counselor and took a test and it said, bleep, bleep, blorp. You should be a dentist.

[Marc Maron]

A dentist.

[Jane Marie]

And then he became a dentist.

[Marc Maron]

Wow.

[Jane Marie]

But we lived in, like, subsidized housing and stuff that whole time.

[Marc Maron]

So he was a rural dentist.

[Jane Marie]

Yes, he still is. Yeah. So he was, I wanna say, like, I mean, they were children, but we lived in Ann Arbor until I was like, seven or something.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

And then we moved back to the country and he's got a practice there now, and he has a practice there now. And he doesn't really make money. I mean, he makes money.

[Marc Maron]

Why? Because he's a charitable guy.

[Jane Marie]

He is.

[Marc Maron]

Okay.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah. He does, like, the prison dentistry, and he doesn't want people to be ripped off and he doesn't like yanking teeth, but he also doesn't want to charge people for root canal. You know, like.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, yeah, Good guy.

[Jane Marie]

He's a good guy.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Well, that's nice. They're still together.

[Jane Marie]

Oh, no, no, no. That's a whole other thing. No, no, when I was. So we lived there until I was 14. And then when. Around that time. Oh, my God, this is so. No, when I was 10, actually started, my dad had, like, an emotional affair with my aunt.

[Marc Maron]

With your aunt or your mom's sister?

[Jane Marie]

Stepsister.

[Marc Maron]

Stepsister.

[Jane Marie]

And then when he told my mom, my mom was like, oh, oh, that reminds me, I was not a virgin when we got married.

[Marc Maron]

Okay, so this is. This is the deep lore.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Okay.

[Jane Marie]

And then they were like.

[Marc Maron]

So that was the one thing she had.

[Jane Marie]

And then they were like, then. Yeah. And then both of them were like, do we both have bipolar disorder? Like, what's going on now? Because we're like 30 years old and, like, everything's going awry. And so eventually my mom left and we moved back to Ann Arbor and she went to school there. And then she started dating, like, this guy from a punk band that was like, close to my age. And then my mom then had an affair with the court appointed psychologist from my parents. Divorce.

[Marc Maron]

Well, smart people. Interesting people.

[Jane Marie]

Sure. Yeah. Then they got married to the psychologist. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And you're like, what, 16 or something?

[Jane Marie]

Yeah, yeah, No, I was. It went on for five years with like, his wife's barging into my mom's house and stuff, like, grabbing her husband.

[Marc Maron]

Full drama.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah, yeah, a lot of stuff.

[Marc Maron]

But, you know, I mean, do you have sisters, brothers?

[Jane Marie]

I do. I'm the oldest, obviously, of five now. So there was me and my brother two years younger.

[Marc Maron]

From your dad?

[Jane Marie]

From my mom and dad. And then my sister eight years younger than me from my mom and dad.

[Marc Maron]

Huh. Were you trying to keep it going?

[Jane Marie]

They were. And then once the divorce happened, I have a couple steps from my mom's second marriage, who I love very much. And then my dad. Okay. So my dad is young and we had that kind of like father daughter thing where we would go out and people would think we were on a date.

[Marc Maron]

Sure. How old is he?

[Jane Marie]

He would be 66 or 7.

[Marc Maron]

Wow.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Not much older than me.

[Jane Marie]

How old are you?

[Marc Maron]

61.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah, you're okay.

[Marc Maron]

In the zone.

[Jane Marie]

But my dad was also like, even though he's a dentist and everything, he was also like a very early adopter of rap music. And like, he liked going out to shows and surfing and, you know, like, he was a fun person. And I was his fun playmate, you know, growing up. But then when I became an adult and he wasn't remarried, it became like he would, like show up at this American Life sometimes. Cause he lived in Michigan, it was like a few hours away. When we were in Chicago, he'd show up and start hitting on Ira's wife and stuff. Anyway, and call me all the time. And I would have to say, like, get a life. So then I was working on this story. We were working on a story at the show about Russian brides and doing fact checking around, like the legit Russian bride websites I sent one time. And I was like, just get a move on here, dude. And he found a Russian bride. Come on, they're still married. So this was like 20 years ago. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Really?

[Jane Marie]

And she's younger than me.

[Marc Maron]

Wow.

[Jane Marie]

She's also a dentist from Siberia.

[Marc Maron]

That's crazy.

[Jane Marie]

I know. This is all.

[Marc Maron]

Have you done this show?

[Jane Marie]

No. Trying to save it for a book or something. I don't know. You know, I do get into this vibe sometimes with my family story because it is really remarkable. And I'm only told telling you like 10% of the time.

[Marc Maron]

But the interesting thing about this particular part of the story, as opposed to the part that you explore in the dream, is that, like, this is a fairly irresponsible but relatively progressive story.

[Jane Marie]

Sure.

[Marc Maron]

You're not submerged in some sort of grievance ridden townie culture. I mean, these people seem like it's.

[Jane Marie]

Only recently that any one of them have ever started looking at Fox News or something. That's not the world that I'm from.

[Marc Maron]

It sounded like they were both not unlike my parents of a different generation. Growing up with you.

[Jane Marie]

Yep.

[Marc Maron]

Because they were so young when they.

[Jane Marie]

Had us, which made me the parentified child.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, of course. And also, there's no boundaries. There's no, you know, everything's.

[Jane Marie]

My mom borrowed my clothes for dates, you know.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, really?

[Jane Marie]

Yeah, like that kind of level. And again, my dad, like, we hung out. We went to raves in Detroit together.

[Marc Maron]

That's just crazy.

[Jane Marie]

It is crazy. Well, until I got caught with cocaine. And then he was like, maybe the rave thing isn't the best for you. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So is that how you rebelled? You just Got all fucked up and. Did you?

[Jane Marie]

I actually moved out when I was 16 in Ann Arbor because it was.

[Marc Maron]

Too boundaryless and fucked up.

[Jane Marie]

I lived with my mom at the time, and it was. I really felt like I did have this thing as a girl, and, like. How do I say this? I was definitely sexualized by the men in my family. Like, not assaulted or anything.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Jane Marie]

There was often talk of, well, you're gonna get knocked up. You know, like, that kind of thing.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jane Marie]

And at a certain point, that just, like, got to be so much that I felt like, well, if I'm being. If fingers are being pointed at me. Meanwhile, I'm a straight A student. Like, I'm doing everything I possibly can to, like, not screw up my life in that way. I was just like, why do I have these people? Like, why do I have bosses in my life who don't understand me at all, think I'm irresponsible? I had a job since I was 13. I didn't. So, yeah, I moved out at 16. But then I got into drugs, which was a blast, but only for, like, a year, and I had to get rescued.

[Marc Maron]

You did?

[Jane Marie]

Yeah, by my dad.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, really?

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Which drugs?

[Jane Marie]

Mostly cocaine.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Yeah. So you're up a lot.

[Jane Marie]

Running around, getting, like, staph infections is basically what was happening.

[Marc Maron]

So not a great party.

[Jane Marie]

Not a great party. Letting older men, like, bick my head and stuff. Like, it was not. It was. It was raving in Detroit in the early 90s.

[Marc Maron]

So the dentist came to the rescue.

[Jane Marie]

Dentist came to the rescue, took me home, said, I have three rules. No boys overnight. Call me every three days. And I forget what the third one was. Oh, no drugs in the house.

[Marc Maron]

So you cleaned up a little bit.

[Jane Marie]

I cleaned up a lot, yeah. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So how do you end up at this American life exactly? Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

I mean, the Lord. No, I'm kidding. No. So I graduate high school through the.

[Marc Maron]

Mail, like a ged.

[Jane Marie]

I don't even know what it was.

[Marc Maron]

Exactly, but it's legit. You think?

[Jane Marie]

I still have nightmares about it. Like, I'm not actually a high school graduate, you know, Like, I have those dreams of, like, I have three more credits I have to do. Yeah, no, it was. There was this thing in the back of, like, teen magazines that was like, cut this thing out and send it in, and then we'll send you textbooks. And then it was proctored by the local high school, the tests. So that's how I graduated. And then I went to some local community colleges, and my dad and I Opened a cafe in a weird rundown bank. Okay.

[Marc Maron]

Wow. Full life.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah. And then I moved to Chicago and went to school there. And I was putting myself through school, so I had, like, five jobs. Like, I was working at a bar and somehow got into the honors college, which is very weird, and working there. And then I started working at my college radio station. And this was right when Pro Tools. Okay, guys. Listen, audience. This is where we're going to get real. Inside baseball.

[Marc Maron]

The Pro Tools.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah. Whoa. Yeah. Pro Tools happened. And I went to, like, a convention and met with the people from Pro Tools and was like, can we have a system for our school? And they said, sure. So I learned Pro Tools. And then one day, I was driving home from Chicago to Michigan, and I heard this radio story about a guy who was a Tequila Man. Did you ever.

[Marc Maron]

Is it one of Iris?

[Jane Marie]

It's John Hodgman.

[Marc Maron]

It's Hodgman. Okay. Tequila Man.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah. He was, like, friends from college with this guy that became a Tequila Master and, like, traveled around letting people, like, take shots off of his body and stuff. And he was, like, hired by Resorts to be, like, the Tequila Man.

[Marc Maron]

Sure.

[Jane Marie]

But this. I never heard this show before.

[Marc Maron]

I knew a guy who was the Dancing guy, but he didn't make a living at it. He was just, like, a local character who would show up at punk shows and dance.

[Jane Marie]

Good for everyone around him.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. I don't know what happened to that guy. It wasn't looking like it was gonna.

[Jane Marie]

Go well, what town?

[Marc Maron]

He was here, but I think he was elsewhere, too. And I've seen, like, he ended up in Utah, I think. I don't know what happened to him. I'll text him after the show.

[Jane Marie]

I hope he's doing great.

[Marc Maron]

See how Dancing man is faring.

[Jane Marie]

This was Tequila Man. And I heard the story, and I was like, is this Pirate Ra? Like, I was excited, actually. Cause I was like, is this Pirate radio? Did I just, like, accidentally stumble upon pirate radio? And my first thought was, I gotta get to know these people. Yeah. And I didn't. Nothing I was doing in college or work. I was a bartender. I was dating rappers. I was studying history, getting good grades. That was my life. Yeah. But I heard this story, and I was like, I must look into this. And then I listened all the way through the credits, and it said, it was this American life. So the next day, I went to school and got on the early Internet and looked up the show, and they had an internship.

[Marc Maron]

Okay.

[Jane Marie]

And I applied. And then I didn't hear anything at all which is fine, because what was I expecting?

[Marc Maron]

Sure.

[Jane Marie]

But then it turned out the hiring manager, like, was late hiring a new intern, and I lived right down the street. Like, I wasn't someone from, like, a Ivy League school that had to move or anything. I was just. Plus, I was, like, older. Cause I went to school late. I was, I think, 24 or something. It was starly kind. She called me. We stayed on the phone for an hour. And then I was like, okay, so did you want me to come in for an interview? And she was like, that was your interview. And I was like, no, no, no.

[Marc Maron]

I thought we were just talking.

[Jane Marie]

And then she called me an hour later, her and Jonathan Goldstein, and they said, do you want to come be our intern? And I said, yeah. Yes. And then. And then I just hit it off with everybody. I don't. Since then, Ira has said very complimentary things about my skills. But, like, I didn't go in there knowing anything about that world, really, or, you know, especially culturally, the world. Like, I don't. Like, I. Again, as a high school dropout.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Jane Marie]

I opted out of understanding these sorts of things. But, like, the schools that everybody there went to, or, like, the world, the.

[Marc Maron]

Towns, these aren't party people, but they're.

[Jane Marie]

Also not poor people, and they're not rural people, and they're not from the middle of nowhere in Michigan. It was a bit of a culture shock for me to have, or, like, a learning curve, basically, to know what people were talking about when they're talking about graduate school or going to journalism studying. I just went in there with technical skills. I can cut tape really fast. Like, really fucking fast. The tops of the shows, like, the beginning of the shows, I used to cut those five minutes before air.

[Marc Maron]

Wow.

[Jane Marie]

Like, Ira would record, and I would mix it with the music, like, on the spot, and we would go live on Fridays. So that was thrilling.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. The live radio is thrilling.

[Jane Marie]

It was so much fun.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

But, yeah, I just had, like, go. He says he paid me for my taste and that I was a really natural editor, which I took as an offensive. When he first said it to me, like, oh, you're just.

[Marc Maron]

Like.

[Jane Marie]

You're naturally. Like, you're not trained.

[Marc Maron]

It's hard not to feel like you're being condescended to, you know? I love him. I think he's a genius. But, I mean. But there is that moment sort of like, are you.

[Jane Marie]

Like, are you fucking with me?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. My relationship with Ira, I mean, outside of the interview I did with him, but. And seeing him Socially, here and there. My greatest accomplishment. One of them on the podcast was to do a live show in Brooklyn at Union. What's the big place out there?

[Jane Marie]

Bell House.

[Marc Maron]

The Bell House. And on that panel I had Artie Lang and Ira.

[Jane Marie]

He loves Artie Lang.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And to me, it was the greatest thing I'd ever achieved, was bringing those two together.

[Jane Marie]

Oh, my gosh, I wish I would have been there. No, he's like a. Yeah, he's a Howard Stern freak.

[Marc Maron]

Isn't that interesting?

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So then. So eventually you just start producing segments.

[Jane Marie]

Well, I was an intern.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

And then I was the intern again. Because they needed. Because it happened again. So I got to do two terms as an intern. And then at the end of my internship, and I was like, producing things, but mostly learning and following everyone around and working like 70, 80 hours a week and just staying until 11 o'clock at night and hope. Keeping my fingers crossed that, like, Ira would order dinner, you know?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

Cause it was just like a poor. They did. I will say they had a paid internship. They still do. That's the only reason I ever applied. Cause I didn't have the money to.

[Marc Maron]

Just not do anything else or to have an internship.

[Jane Marie]

Like, I'm not.

[Marc Maron]

Gotta work.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah. I don't. And I was still bartending on the weekends, but I needed the cash. So that was great that I got like $2,000 a month or something. But I lived in Chicago. It was like 500 for my rent. And I lived. Yeah. But I worked a lot of hours. And at the end of my internship, Ira was like, all right, kiddo. He still calls me kiddo. Yeah, what do you want to do? And I was like, I want to work here. And he was like, I'm not hiring. And I was like, you will be eventually. And he was like, maybe not. Why don't you want to go to, like, all things I could, like, put a word in for you all these places. And I was like, no, I'm fine. I'll just hang out here. Yeah. So I kept bartending. I kept volunteering at the studio.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

Like at wbz at the radio station. And doing some, like, really sketchy, actually, stringer work. You know, a stringer is like someone that goes out with a tape recorder to record someone on the other end of a phone interview and did some stuff with, like, recently released death row inmates and things, like, in my car.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Jane Marie]

But eventually someone got pregnant and needed to go on maternity leave.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And he got in.

[Jane Marie]

And I got snuck right in there.

[Marc Maron]

But that's interesting. So this whole arc of this is you, you know, you're getting an education in a specific type of journalism.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah. Yes, exactly. And I love that type of journalism, and it. I mean, I learned directly from the best person at it.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

As far as, like, audio journalism goes, like, I got very lucky that I sat right next to that person for 10 years.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

You know, and he even told me when I was an intern, like, at the very beginning, he said, like, if you want to learn how to do this stuff, you got to find the things that you like, like the people that you like who are doing this, and just copy them until you figure out what your thing is. I listen to my old pieces. Oh, my God. I sound, like, so bad, so inept. My scripts are horrible. I sound like I'm trying to be on this American life.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Jane Marie]

But I'm already working there.

[Marc Maron]

Well, there is a tone to it.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah. It's very flat.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Is that taut?

[Jane Marie]

Yes. Yeah. I can teach it to you if you want to get a script up.

[Marc Maron]

I can manufacture it. Yeah, I think I can get it.

[Jane Marie]

Well, you're doing 25% less mark right now. A little bit flatter.

[Marc Maron]

Okay, so what happens next?

[Jane Marie]

I don't think you're thinking about what you're saying, so can we start that one again?

[Marc Maron]

Sure.

[Jane Marie]

I want you to think about the words.

[Marc Maron]

Okay. Okay.

[Jane Marie]

Mm.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, well, that's interesting. So where do you go from there?

[Jane Marie]

You're almost there. Just. But we know you're a funny person, so we have to inject a little bit of that. But keep it flat.

[Marc Maron]

Okay. Okay.

[Jane Marie]

Okay.

[Marc Maron]

Okay. So that's a great story, but, I mean, what happens next?

[Jane Marie]

Boom. You're hired. Where's the check? No, I spent 10 years doing that with people.

[Marc Maron]

But so all this kind of leads into, like. I mean, I think the dream is you really doing it.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Like, this must be your, you know, your masterwork at this point, this series, in terms of the approach and how you absorbed it and then, you know, learned how to make it your own.

[Jane Marie]

No, that type of journalism is awesome. And that's what I want to do. I want to just be myself without inserting myself in every single part of the story. I also don't want to be Navel gazy all the time. Like, I want to be able to tell personal parts of the story without.

[Marc Maron]

And engage people.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah, and engage people as a normal person. Because that's another thing that happens, like, in the, you know, audio documentary world is, like, people come in to tell stories and you're just like, I cannot relate to this person at all. Like, they.

[Marc Maron]

That's when I just keep interjecting until I get them around to something that I can. That's my style. It's not really an NPR approach.

[Jane Marie]

I like your style.

[Marc Maron]

Well, thank you. So what drives you to do this thing? What about this multi level marketing scam?

[Jane Marie]

That's the first season that we did, I think.

[Marc Maron]

No, I know, but that was the entry point.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

You made a decision.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Are you telling me you had the full arc of all the seasons?

[Jane Marie]

No, no, no, no, no. So I got a call from Stitcher saying. From Laura Mayer saying, we want to make a show about MLMs. And then I kept her on the phone forever, and I was like, blah, blah, blah, blah, everyone I know.

[Marc Maron]

What do you think compelled her to do that?

[Jane Marie]

Her. Just the thing we were all experiencing at that time of, like, Facebook posts from our friends trying to sell stuff.

[Marc Maron]

Okay.

[Jane Marie]

It was like a very.

[Marc Maron]

Okay, yeah, yeah.

[Jane Marie]

It was like 2017, 2018. And so we just started talking about it and talking about it, and I was like, oh, my grandma did it. My great grandma did it. Blah, blah, blah. I said, do you. Are you sure I just should produce? Like, can I. Who's hosting this? They were like, we don't know yet. I was like, oh, I'm available to just talk about my family and myself and look into this. And it was a fascinating world. And then it opened the show up to this whole grand scale, institutional American style. Trickery, essentially, is what the show's about.

[Marc Maron]

But what's interesting about the arc, at least of that first season, is whether it was trickery or not, there was a good side to it.

[Jane Marie]

Oh, my God.

[Marc Maron]

On a community level, yes.

[Jane Marie]

Like, my family is all involved. I grew up going to Avon parties, Tupperware parties. I still have one of my friends that was on the show who sells bags, although that company just shuttered and now she's selling. I think she's selling diet shakes. Anyway, I went to a couple of her parties for the reporting, and it was so fun. And if I was in Owasso still or Corona or any of that part of Michigan, I don't. Maybe I would. I don't know that I wouldn't be doing something like selling makeup to my friends.

[Marc Maron]

But the implications and the sort of foundation of the racket, it's really like, you know, this is the final turn of that particular American way of thinking with this presidency. And fascism, like fascism in its most basic form, is a huge grift.

[Jane Marie]

It's this faux meritocracy that I have a big problem with, which is being sold to people by the people stealing the money from people who think this is a meritocracy.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Jane Marie]

You know, it's not. It's like, Donald Trump is definitely not the top 1%, smartest or most capable person.

[Marc Maron]

No. He likes making money for nothing. He's running a parade. It's like a giant protection rifle.

[Jane Marie]

But he's telling you and everyone. He's telling the whole world right now. Like, the Doge thing is. No, just that we're our best and brightest. We only want our best and brightest.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

And whitest.

[Marc Maron]

But if it weren't for what you were talking about in your book and also in the podcast, if it weren't for the evolution of this, people might not have believed it, but they've been believing this bullshit forever.

[Jane Marie]

Yes. Because it sounds great.

[Marc Maron]

Of course. Like, Nate. I watched an old clip in Nate's about why he voted for Trump, basically, which was like, well, you know, he's talking about winning. I want to win.

[Jane Marie]

No, I mean, I do, too. I didn't vote for Trump, but we all want to win. Right. And if the story is. Which is the story of America, that, like, those who try hardest, you know, and keep your nose to the grindstone. It's also so, like, the bootstrap thinking thing. I spent a lot of time thinking about this, which I think is just one of the most Reese's ideas out there. It came, like, about after the Civil War, where it was just, like, a way for white people to tell black people that it's on them now, and.

[Marc Maron]

Now it's on everybody.

[Jane Marie]

You know, now it's on everybody. Right. But it was this idea of, like, we let you go free, now it's all on you.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Jane Marie]

You know, there's no social safety nets, and we're not gonna help you do anything. You gotta just pick yourself up by your bootstraps.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Jane Marie]

Even though we didn't let you have any.

[Marc Maron]

No boots. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

[Jane Marie]

And now it's literally everybody. And there are. But there's been studies done. We talked about this on the show about, like, personality types when it comes to this sort of thing. There are. There are personalities who look at the potential of making money on, you know, a pyramid scheme or something else.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

And they see that's 0.1% of people, and that just. That's also just making money in America.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

And they go, oh, that sounds stupid. I'm not. How would I ever there's no chance. And then there's other people that are like, well, if anyone can do it with me.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Jane Marie]

You know, interesting. And.

[Marc Maron]

And sometimes they're selling nothing but an idea.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And so the second season was all.

[Jane Marie]

About the health supplement, wellness and supplements and all of that. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Because again, this is prophetic.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But it's, it's very interesting, the mindset of it, that a person can easily turn on science and medicine because of suspicion and the amount of money it may cost and then just throw all of their, Their belief into stuff that is proven to be useless or, or not effective or just. I, It's. I don't quite understand it, though. I take vitamins. I get it on a fundamental level, like why you wouldn't want to get vaccinated. I'm not sure I quite understand it, but I know myself, like, well, I should be able to do that, fight that on my own.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah. We just did an episode about RFK Jr and his thoughts about vaccines and all that stuff for the Dream. Yeah. And we did. In the wellness season, too, we did an episode about this. I can say, just coming from, like, poor people. I mean, healthcare is expensive.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Jane Marie]

And vitamins are also expensive, but not as expensive.

[Marc Maron]

And also you feel like you have more control over vitamins. It's not like, what is this? And the doc can't explain it to you.

[Jane Marie]

Right. Well, it's also. There's no elitist person in the middle of you in the vitamin.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

And I'm not.

[Marc Maron]

It's just your neighbor.

[Jane Marie]

Exactly. Or something. It really means a lot to people. And even within my family, there's talk sometimes about my dad being like, hoity because he has like a quote unquote medical degree. Like, he's a dentist.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, I see.

[Jane Marie]

And so, you know, he thinks he knows everything. Like that kind of thinking which you hear from Trump and all of his buddies all the time, like, well, what makes you so smart? Yeah, like science studies, like doing the scientific method, whatever.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

And we do. We have let people down in the healthcare world a lot in this country in particular. And I totally get the impulse to, like, want to find some alternative to, you know, waiting in line at Cedars for some asshole to come in and tell you there's nothing that can be done.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Jane Marie]

And that we're not going to do the next test because you don't have the right insurance. Like, I understand that completely. Where I get bothered is just that there is science out there, you know.

[Marc Maron]

Like, yeah, some things don't work, some Things don't work.

[Jane Marie]

And also in some places. Well, not any. Some industries are not regulated at all. Like there's no regulation on vitamins and supplements.

[Marc Maron]

I know.

[Jane Marie]

None. Yeah, there's no. You don't have to get anything tested by the fda. There doesn't have to be consistency between bottles.

[Marc Maron]

And that. And that type of pitch is the same as the MLM thing.

[Jane Marie]

Exactly. Like, you can be your own boss, you can set your own hours. Why do you have this boss above you? He thinks he knows everything.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Jane Marie]

We have a better way. We have a shortcut.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

We have a shortcut to money. We have a shortcut to.

[Marc Maron]

Right, but they're also on the take, you know, from the company that's making the product. Right.

[Jane Marie]

Sure.

[Marc Maron]

They don't have a piece of that. It all tracks back up to these people that are doing nothing but, you know, pulling money in from people who spend, what, maybe a month to six.

[Jane Marie]

Months in the company, maybe a year, saving money.

[Marc Maron]

Right. Of their own.

[Jane Marie]

Of their own to do this thing.

[Marc Maron]

That's not possible.

[Jane Marie]

And an endless line of people behind them. One of the women that I interviewed described it as a. And she. She's one of the higher ups at one of these companies.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

But she's like, well, we have a bathtub with the drain open. We're just. People are gonna filter through this thing really, really quickly. And I'm like, oh, so you really aren't selling anything? Like you're always selling.

[Marc Maron]

It's just a numbers game, suckers.

[Jane Marie]

The idea of selling something.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

How did Betsy DeVos get so huge?

[Jane Marie]

So huge in what way? Like, get appointed by Trump?

[Marc Maron]

No, but I mean, like, how did Amway make so much fucking money?

[Jane Marie]

Well, so they started their company without a product at all. They were vitamin salesmen. They were a lot of different things. They had like an airline and all this nonsense. They were besties from high school that also would like charge people to. Van Andel and DeVos back in the day in Grand Rapids. But they worked for this vitamin company doing like door to door sales and then decided that they were gonna start their own company like that, but they didn't have a product.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

And so they built the whole framework for what Amway was going to look like in terms of, quote unquote, hiring and recruiting and all of those.

[Marc Maron]

You can be a distributor.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah. And then they went and acquired a bar soap company, Right. Called, I think it was called Frisk or something like that.

[Marc Maron]

So it's all hype.

[Jane Marie]

It's all hype. It's all.

[Marc Maron]

And they made a fortune.

[Jane Marie]

Oh, my God.

[Marc Maron]

I remember some guy talked me into an Amway starter kit. No. When I was in high school.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah. Well, that's the other thing. There's no rules. Like, yeah, you don't have to have a. You don't have an adult or have a degree or anything.

[Marc Maron]

It's another high school student.

[Jane Marie]

That's what's so great about this opportunity, Mark. Anyone can do it.

[Marc Maron]

Sign up, you get this package, you get a few products. And I tried to sell two things and it didn't work out. And I was out.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah. Did you do Cutco after that?

[Marc Maron]

No, I didn't do anything. I'm not driven that way. But when you're in high school, the guy's like, yeah, try it. And I'm thought like, all right. And then you just like, if you don't have that kind of mindset, it's not gonna stick. I don't remember doing it. I think I sold some cleaner to my friend's mom and that was the end of it.

[Jane Marie]

I talk about this in the book. I fell for one once. It's not an MLM exactly, but it was an infomercial scam where they sold tapes or, like, CDs and books about how to put Chinese manufactured tchotchkes in the back of magazines. And I was like, that sounds like so much fun.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. I remember when I was in high school, there was a couple of moments where I'm like, this is the way to do it.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But, like, I didn't have the wherewithal. I didn't have the ambition. No, I just thought, like, you know, let's do it. And then somebody talked you out of it. If you're smart, you're like, oh, yeah, that makes sense. I'm not gonna do it.

[Jane Marie]

Well, also, just like, if you're a business person, just make your own business. Like what?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, but, like, you gotta also find something you believe in. I don't think that ambition is a point of view. It is its own thing and you can apply it to whatever. But it seems like now it is sort of a point of view.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah. Like, I am ambitious. I am empowered. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Marc Maron]

No matter what. It doesn't matter what it is.

[Jane Marie]

Virtuous person. Quote, unquote, person.

[Marc Maron]

What was the third season about?

[Jane Marie]

Life coaching.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, my God.

[Jane Marie]

I'm sorry. I apologize. Oh, my God. Yeah, it was about life coaching, which.

[Marc Maron]

Is so sad, man. It's like, so sad that, like, this idea of suckers is that we're all kind of half suckers.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And you have to be vigilant.

[Jane Marie]

I married a man. I know. I actually married two. Like, I had all the hope in the world.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

About this thing that was clearly. If I read even one piece of paper about this.

[Marc Maron]

About what?

[Jane Marie]

Marriage to, like a cishet. Supposedly male. You know, like what was. I think like that I did it twice. I did it twice. That's how hopeful I was at achieving a certain version of the American dream.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

You know, sure. Oopsie daisy. But like, this is our folklore.

[Marc Maron]

Well, I always think of that. The scene at the end of Wolf of Wall street when that guy comes back and, you know, Scorsese really focuses on that audience of people and they really played it well. That bunch of extras.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Just that sort of like, you know, tell us what we need to do.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

To be you.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Or to have what you have.

[Jane Marie]

I feel like there's cracks forming most recently. I mean, I've been complaining about the one presenters for years now. But I do feel like we're kind of seeing finally out loud these multi, multi, multi, billion and trillionaires wealth hoarding in a way that there's no shame at all left in it. And like I said.

[Marc Maron]

And it becomes aspirational to a lot of people.

[Jane Marie]

That's what I was saying that there's people that earlier there's been those studies about people, they look at that and go, I could be an Elon.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Jane Marie]

I could be a Jeff Bezos or I could be a loser who doesn't care about that sort of thing. And again, when I've spoken to very wealthy people, they don't understand why I don't want to be a billionaire.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

Like, there's no. They don't. They can't comprehend why I wouldn't want to hoard all of my neighbor's wealth. And I'm like, I'm too lazy for that. First of all. Like, I just.

[Marc Maron]

But I just always wanted to be okay.

[Jane Marie]

I just want to be fine and I want to be nice and I want to help people and I want to raise a normal person.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, you're so woke. That's what that was all about.

[Jane Marie]

I do listen to almost exclusively, like, rap music, so I'm not that woke.

[Marc Maron]

No. But I mean, that was the weak point. That was the Achilles heel of being able to render it all down to something that sounded bad.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But you know, because when you really. If you are a person that believes in liberal democracy or empathy or. Or helping people or that people who need help, should get help. You know, those are decent things. And somehow through the word of woke, it became an attack word.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Like, it's kind of fucking amazing, but it goes right into this sort of like, why wouldn't you want a billion dollars?

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

What's wrong with you?

[Jane Marie]

What are you, an idiot? Like, and also that idea of wanting a billion dollars is like what this whole place was built on too, you know?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

Like, and, and having it come through nepotism and.

[Marc Maron]

Right. So what's, what is the like. Well, life coaching is just so hilarious in terms for me, it's so funny that, like, you know, like, you can glean things from people, you know, that have a handle on things that you might not and just move through it.

[Jane Marie]

So this was a point of, this was something I brought up early in that season was like, I want. If I'm gonna have a life coach that isn't like a certified, like therapist or something, or a doctor, I want their life to be perfect. Like, I want it to be perfect to you. To me. Yeah, I want it. But that doesn't exist.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

So, yeah, that season was really interesting.

[Marc Maron]

Because my brother, who, you know, is kind of moved through a lot of different jobs and is very sort of hyper self aware and very sort of always has been kind of a searcher and, you know, really prone to, to, to systems that offer self actualization but, you know, struggles. And I remember there was a brief period there where he's like, you know, and he was just trying to keep his own fucking life together. He's like, I'm looking into getting into life coaching.

[Jane Marie]

We did a whole episode about how many unemployed life coaches there are, or like life coaches that have been recently fired from their job. And they're like, no, what I'm gonna do? Teach other people how to get jobs, Right? Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Because it's a racket, you know, and even if they can't apply to themselves, they can get a pitch going. That is uplifting for them too, though, for sure.

[Jane Marie]

You know, it's like validating for themselves. Like, it's like, I have purpose, I have some.

[Marc Maron]

Well, that might be the okay thing about it.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah, I guess that's what I could see in it when I was talking to people. Like, yeah, it was affirming for the, for the life coach themselves to say, I have something to offer the world. Because the world, the way it's set up, which we've been talking about, isn't being kind to very many people or valuing their gifts, you know, everything's getting so distorted in terms of what we care about. You know, we don't care about science anymore. Like, as of this last month, there's no more science. There's no more value in, like, you know, having capable, intelligent people running the country. There's no more value in taking care of one another. And so it is a. I mean, becoming a life coach is a way to say, I have a gift to share with the world. That's what my great grandma did when she was selling Avon. Like, she felt like I'm showing I'm being part of my community, and I'm, like, helping women feel good about themselves. And I think that's just as important as what the sucker is getting out of it.

[Marc Maron]

Sure.

[Jane Marie]

You know.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Well, it's interesting that, you know, in one of the seasons, there was, you know, two kinds of. They weren't necessarily suckers, but people that came to a realization about what they were involved in.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And one was sort of like, yeah, I got out and, you know, oh, well, you know, fuck the suckers. On some level, you know, I don't do it anymore. But it wasn't really empathetic. And then there was the other guy that was like, oh, my God, what am I involved with?

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So what's this new season about?

[Jane Marie]

Anything I want. Cause I bought the show away from the giant corporations that were run by people who've never done anything in journalism or podcasting. And so it's a new. It's weekly now. It's not seasonal.

[Marc Maron]

Okay.

[Jane Marie]

We're just. I'm doing interviews and reporting on whatever I feel like.

[Marc Maron]

And what have some of that been?

[Jane Marie]

Well, today's episode was about a case where a woman was. A young woman was put on a suicide hold, arrested and taken to a hospital for considering having an abortion. That's happening, like, thinking about having an abortion.

[Marc Maron]

So who ratted her out?

[Jane Marie]

Her former friends that she had been a pro life activist with when she was 15 years old.

[Marc Maron]

Okay.

[Jane Marie]

Called the. Went to the courthouse, called the cops, got her arrested.

[Marc Maron]

What state?

[Jane Marie]

North Carolina. I just finished producing a show about abortion called Outlawed. That's all about, like, what abortion actually is and, like, why it's so wild that it's illegal. Because, like, it's not about birth control.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

You know, that's a whole racist, classist argument. But, like, rich white ladies are always gonna have abortions.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Jane Marie]

You know, of course. Because they're gonna have the doctor that tells them that their kid doesn't have a brain.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Jane Marie]

At six months pregnant.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

But also because they can afford that. You know what I mean? But, like, that's the actual sequence of events that happens often.

[Marc Maron]

But that's also another thing that's sort of the blind spot of people who are aspiring to be billionaires or whatever is that their conditions in their life are of a kind where they aren't. They don't have any entitlement at all. Right. They're just struggling. And rich people are always going to be able to get whatever they need somehow.

[Jane Marie]

Well, because they deserve it.

[Marc Maron]

Well, I mean, that's what they.

[Jane Marie]

You know what I mean, that's what they believe, though, is that they, you know, why wouldn't they have the very best doctors? They need to keep their kind alive.

[Marc Maron]

Right. Well, I get that. No, I get that. But I guess, like, I'm always sort of stuck on the profound lack of empathy in any way for the people that they're taking advantage of. I don't quite.

[Jane Marie]

I don't get it either.

[Marc Maron]

I can't make that leap to understand.

[Jane Marie]

That part of you about it today on this episode. That's how I closed the episode. I was just like, when you let your politics completely impact and erase your morals, what are you even doing? Why do you have an idea about who should be president if at the end of the day you don't care if children are getting hurt?

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Jane Marie]

Like actual alive children, you know?

[Marc Maron]

Well, I think what happens, the only analogy I can have I get is that, like, I know when I was doing morning radio that, you know, you get into a sort of manic brain and, you know, and you start churning out, you know, your version of talking points or your version of your beliefs. But there's a mania to it. And I think because of technology and because of, you know, so many people creating content, that that mania, which is not what. It does not possess empathy, really, it's really just about, you know, intensity and getting out whatever your beliefs are, whether they're even actually yours.

[Jane Marie]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

But that zone of engagement makes no real room for other people. Right. You know, until, you know, until you have to talk with other people. But so if you're living in that, if you're isolated and just churning, that that's coming in and that's going out. You're literally, you know, putting some sort of wall between you and having actual human feelings.

[Jane Marie]

Well, you're commodifying yourself.

[Marc Maron]

Well, there's that, but there's also a.

[Jane Marie]

Content creator or whatever.

[Marc Maron]

Sure. But I'm just talking about that weird mania of opinion that doesn't even, you know, is not thoughtful. It's just sort of attack or intensity. And if you live in that, how are you going to be a functioning human?

[Jane Marie]

I go on TikTok and sell one of those slicer things, the cheese grinder. Sure, sure.

[Marc Maron]

Those are the only things I almost buy is like bullshit kitchen stuff. It's like, that would be a good thing just to clip on my faucet for the sponge.

[Jane Marie]

For real.

[Marc Maron]

Like the ideological thing I don't get, but like, oh, my God. So you can just squeeze the lemon without it, you know, like.

[Jane Marie]

But that is what folks are doing, you know, and they're thinking, my outrage and my creating conflict all over the place is creating engagement. Engagement is creating opportunities to make money.

[Marc Maron]

I'm so new. Not in that loop.

[Jane Marie]

Oh, I thought you were gonna say old.

[Marc Maron]

No, I'm just not. Like, I don't feed on that stuff. I've never been about money, which is my shortcoming, but also just.

[Jane Marie]

You're doing fine.

[Marc Maron]

Well, yeah, you're doing fine. It worked out. Yeah, but it was never like, my drive has never been to make money. It's been to understand and communicate same.

[Jane Marie]

And I want to have a. I mean, and I don't mind having a job. Like, I don't mind. I like working.

[Marc Maron]

I don't mind working if I want, if I can find value in the work other than money, because that's not enough for me.

[Jane Marie]

Well, that's why I like bartending. Sure. I loved bartending. Yeah, I was really good at that.

[Marc Maron]

You're with the people.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah, I'm talking about.

[Marc Maron]

You're watching people like, you know, have a good time or destroy their lives. You get the whole arc.

[Jane Marie]

I show off how I can, like, do one thing with my foot and one thing with my, you know, like, performative. Yeah, it was fun.

[Marc Maron]

What are some of the other episodes this season?

[Jane Marie]

So this season we also did some follow ups about the, like, former people that were on about MLMs, folks who had been scammed. I'm talking to this woman, Dory tomorrow, who she's like the best kind of maniac. She believes that she's solved what Stonehenge was for.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, sure.

[Jane Marie]

And the voyage manuscript.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. So glad they're out there doing their own research. She's going to answer all the questions.

[Jane Marie]

She's really smart though. I think she has a great idea, like how I would sum up the research she's done. And she's a lay person. Like she's a historian or anything, or an archaeologist. But I think she Gives credit to how smart people have been since people have been people. Instead of being like, oh, it must have been hocus pocus and weird stuff, she's like, no, I think it was a meat processing plant.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Jane Marie]

Literally.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Jane Marie]

And she has, like, drawings and everything of, like, this is how it worked.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

You know.

[Marc Maron]

Interesting.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah, it's really good. But so kind of, you know, whatever I'm curious about.

[Marc Maron]

But your curiosity is in the spectrum of revealing certain truths that are simple and subversive somehow in a way now.

[Jane Marie]

Weirdly.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

Like, it's weird that they. That they are at all, but I.

[Marc Maron]

Like, they're only gonna become more so.

[Jane Marie]

I like talking about the. We live in a fantasy.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

And I'm not talking about, like, online or something, but we live in this pretend world that we were all raised in. Like, I was raised to believe if I was worked hard and put effort in and whatever, like, my life would be okay. I could maybe have a home that I own or a child who isn't fucked up or, you know, and all it really took was my mindset. Like, me putting my mind towards something. And the stories that I'm really drawn to are where that shows not to be true at all. Like, that the powers that be have a lot more influence on what happens to each and every one of us. And I know the Stonehenge thing seems like an outlier, but I do think it's important to recognize people have always been smart and thoughtful and, like, trying.

[Marc Maron]

To figure something out that will sustain either them or a community.

[Jane Marie]

Exactly. And so that interests me. I do. Like, you know, I'm not the thing that. I always have had an easier time saying what I'm not into. And that's also an IRA thing where he's like, if you can't figure out what you really want to do, you can totally, totally figure out what you don't want to do.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Jane Marie]

And I know that I don't. I don't want to do true crime. I don't want to talk exclusively about cults, although I have a few times. And this season, we did get into one of these AA cults.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, well, tell me about that one.

[Jane Marie]

It's called Midtown. Just. It's kind of your typical sex cult. But the.

[Marc Maron]

But that's an offshoot of aa. We used to deal. We had a reckon with one of those cults once when I was in New York aa, There was this infusion of Bay Area weirdos that were called. I called. I think they called them. It was Called. I can't remember they had a name for it, but it was definitely a cult within the cult. And generally AA distances themselves from that shit pretty quickly just by a community reaction.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah. A bunch of normal people sitting in a room being like, that's weird.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. And that was kind of interesting that that work, that it worked like that. It's like you're not doing the thing.

[Jane Marie]

That's how the Internet used to work. And I miss it so much. Like, when I was a lady blogger, when I was working at the Hairpin and Jezebel and stuff, like, our Internet community, like, people talking in the comments and stuff, it wasn't so nasty, like, you know, or contentious all the time. People kind of sorted themselves out and kicked out the jerks.

[Marc Maron]

Well, male trolls ruined the Internet.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah, yeah, but we, you know, just engaging and being like, ugh, yeah, we don't want to.

[Marc Maron]

That still happens, I think, on Reddit threads and stuff sometimes.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Where they're like, no, you're crazy. And why are you posting this?

[Jane Marie]

Yeah, but. No, but the cult thing. There are so many podcasts about cults now. There's more podcasts about cults than there are cults. Yeah, sure. So I know I don't really want to do that full time. I really want to. I mean, my goal really is to try to figure out if I can make money doing a thing I'm good at, because I have been told my entire adult life that I cannot, mostly because of my vagina and my boobs. Like, we can't sell ads on a podcast hosted by a woman.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, really?

[Jane Marie]

Not a good podcast.

[Marc Maron]

But also, I imagine part of it was also being. Being taught that, you know, this type of work is a pipe dream.

[Jane Marie]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

And that there's more secure avenues.

[Jane Marie]

Absolutely, absolutely. And I don't have a safety net, so, like, I don't get to take the risks that a lot of people in my industry do. So, you know, when someone comes to me with a contract and it's like the lowest amount of money, I go, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I have poor kid brain, you know? Yeah. Just like, you want to pay me half of what I'm worth? That sounds great.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jane Marie]

Can I work twice as much? And I do that every time, and so I have to get out of that habit. But this new format for the show is really kind of an experiment of, like, can I just be myself and use my skills and be good at mixing and editing and talking to people?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And exploring these weird ideas. Yeah, yeah. And the book. So this is basically based on the first three seasons.

[Jane Marie]

Notice the first season. It's all.

[Marc Maron]

It's all mlm.

[Jane Marie]

This is kind of character study of the people that start and promote MLMs. So it's a lot about, like, what kind of a person.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, interesting.

[Jane Marie]

Wants to start.

[Marc Maron]

I'm glad you brought it to me.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah. You're gonna like it, I think.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

And then there's a lot of weird stuff about my life and childhood and everything.

[Marc Maron]

A little memoir.

[Jane Marie]

Ish. A little bit here and there. Because, you know, when you write a book, they're like, zhuzh it up with more Jane.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

People want more Jane.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Are you sure?

[Jane Marie]

You know what? Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I mean, I. Some guy just made a documentary about me that took four years and it's premiering at Sundance. I'm like, how much of me do people really want?

[Jane Marie]

Isn't that a weird thing? This is like. This last, like, six months is the first time I've ever thought about that. Cause I didn't think I was part of the story really, you know, or like, the. But that parasocial desire. I don't keep up with it enough to, like, understand that that's what's happening. But the more people that listen to my show or read things I've done, it is happening. Like they really are feeling.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, it's a little scary sometimes.

[Jane Marie]

It is scary.

[Marc Maron]

Depending on what your boundaries are like.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah, I have pretty strict boundaries, but I also. Look, I'm lonely.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. But. Yeah. And there's also the pint. There's that part of you that's sort of like. Well, they do kind of know me. They do, you know, I mean, I'm putting myself.

[Jane Marie]

I told them, and they were fine with that, so I'll.

[Marc Maron]

Sure.

[Jane Marie]

But I also get, like, so much hate and stuff, which is just funny. The hate that chicks get on.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, it's crazy.

[Jane Marie]

Dude, her voice is so annoying.

[Marc Maron]

It's crazy.

[Jane Marie]

I can't stand her laugh.

[Marc Maron]

It's crazy.

[Jane Marie]

Why does she think she's so smart?

[Marc Maron]

We had a comment board on WTF back in the day, and we took it down because any female guest would just get just garbage. And it's like, again, it's one of those things, like, I don't get it. What is wrong with these dudes? I don't like. I mean, you know, I can sort of.

[Jane Marie]

They're negging everyone in the world. They think that that's how it works, I guess.

[Marc Maron]

But there's also this disconnect, which is scary. That, you know. You know, most people don't get to fuck. And even with dating apps.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But there's just this part of me where I can try to empathize, or not necessarily empathize, but at least, you know, kind of, because of my boundaryless nature, engage with in almost a symbiotic way, immediately codependent way enough to understand kind of where they're coming from. Like, I can understand a lot of what's going on today because there's part of me that it speaks to and I manage that part.

[Jane Marie]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

Because that's the bad part.

[Jane Marie]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

And we all have those parts. But there are certain behaviors where I'm like.

[Jane Marie]

Where they're like, our A's are. So what the fuck is wrong with that person?

[Marc Maron]

That person wrote that on purpose.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I mean, what is that?

[Jane Marie]

I don't. I think it's. Well, it is mostly men.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, I know.

[Jane Marie]

I think I saw this one because I have a daughter when she was little, and this came actually out of the mouths of a couple of people, you know.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

When, like, my kid would get clocked in the head by a giant John Deere toy by a little boy.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

And the dads would be like, boys will be boys. You know, like that kind of thing. Lots of boys will be boys stuff today. Like, still, like, a couple years ago, her. You know, no one would let her play soccer on the playground. And she's not like, wearing a dress or anything. You know, she's good at soccer. But it is a. Parents are like.

[Marc Maron]

Well, yeah, but that was still doing.

[Jane Marie]

That to these little ones. I mean, they're like 8 years old, and they're being taught by their mom and dads that, like, well, what are we going to do? And they put their hands up, like, they're just probably going to rape somebody.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Kind of.

[Jane Marie]

I mean, seriously, that's where this is going.

[Marc Maron]

And that was really the intention. It's a boy of, you know, dei, was to solve some of these problems on a societal level.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And now that all that shit's gone.

[Jane Marie]

But you're saying the word problems as if everyone agrees on what those problems are.

[Marc Maron]

No, I know. I get that.

[Jane Marie]

And we don't.

[Marc Maron]

No, we don't. No. Some people, really. That's the thing.

[Jane Marie]

Some people think that I had my girlfriend in high school, like, my literal girlfriend in high school. Her father wrote a book when we were in high school called the Natural History of Rape.

[Marc Maron]

Like, you know, see, it's just something that happens.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah. And, like, to Confront that at 16 years old that, like, this is what this person is actually really interested in is, like, how does it just keep happening? You know? And, like, what can we do about it? Nothing. It's just nature.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

And any initiatives like DEI to change.

[Marc Maron]

Any of this or just civilization.

[Jane Marie]

Right, but civilization was also built on that sort of thing.

[Marc Maron]

No, I get it.

[Jane Marie]

Our quote unquote civilization. Right. Was built on raping and pillaging.

[Marc Maron]

Sure. And God knows that's something we need to get back to because that's when things were great again. All right, well, it was good talking to you.

[Jane Marie]

Was it?

[Marc Maron]

Yes.

[Jane Marie]

Was it okay?

[Marc Maron]

Totally.

[Jane Marie]

I don't go on shows very much.

[Marc Maron]

No, it's great.

[Jane Marie]

Okay.

[Marc Maron]

Don't you feel good?

[Jane Marie]

I feel good.

[Marc Maron]

Okay.

[Jane Marie]

I feel like I had fun.

[Marc Maron]

All right, There you go. That was great. I want to mention again that new episodes of the Dream are published weekly. You can also listen to past seasons on all podcast platforms. Hang out for a minute. Hey, folks, I've been doing this a long time, more than 15 years. And I can tell you from past firsthand experience, when I hear from my listeners, they not only know me, they know my sponsors. Research shows that 74% of listeners recall the brands they hear when listening to podcasts. So if you're a business owner or marketer and you want your business to be top of mind, podcast advertising with Acast is the way to go. If you're ready to be heard, run podcast ads with Acast by visiting Go Acast. Hey, folks, two years ago, I talked with another podcaster who has a long running and beloved show, Karina Longworth. We talked about old Hollywood, new show business, and the forgotten history of entertainment. When I think about what you're doing, and I know the podcast is popular, but I wonder how much people know anymore or how much people care anymore.

[Karina Longworth]

I mean, that's what's crazy is that I'm only 42. I mean, obviously that's older than a lot of people.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Karina Longworth]

But it's like it feels like it was so present not that long ago to me, and now it just feels like it's gone.

[Marc Maron]

But isn't that weird? Can you track that as a intellectual, when that happened?

[Karina Longworth]

I'm actually kind of trying to do that right now because the season that I'm working on is about the 90s.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Karina Longworth]

And so I'm really trying to figure out what is the end of this.

[Marc Maron]

Thing that you're involved in.

[Karina Longworth]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

The romantic, seedy, but glamorous world of Hollywood.

[Karina Longworth]

Yeah. And it's, you know, I always. The tagline of the podcast is that it's Hollywood's first century, which could mean a lot of things based on, like, when you define the start of Hollywood.

[Marc Maron]

When do you define it?

[Karina Longworth]

Around 1908.

[Marc Maron]

With which film?

[Karina Longworth]

That's basically when they start making movies in the city of Hollywood, like over.

[Marc Maron]

In, like, Echo park and stuff. Or where was the Keystone? Like, where.

[Karina Longworth]

That's like Los Feliz.

[Marc Maron]

Los Feliz. Yeah.

[Karina Longworth]

But, you know, then you could say that the Hollywood business of making feature films doesn't really start until around 1915. But I've just kind of always thought of it as the 20th century.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Karina Longworth]

And, you know, not.

[Marc Maron]

So you're out of it. You're out of the first. We're out of the first century by.

[Karina Longworth]

A few years, I would say. So. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

That's episode 1421 with Karina Longworth of youf Must Remember this. You can listen to that for free on all podcast platforms. To get every episode of WTF ad free, sign up for WTF plus, go to the link in the episode description or go to wtfpod.com and click on WTF Plus. And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by Acast. Here's some guitar. Like I play. Okay. Boomer lives Monkey and lafonda Cat Angels everywhere.