Episode 1631 - Lynne Margulies

Summary

WTF with Marc Maron Podcast – Episode 1631 Summary: Lynn Margulies

Host: Marc Maron
Guest: Lynn Margulies
Release Date: April 3, 2025
Topic: Exploring Andy Kaufman's Legacy and Lynn Margulies' New Documentary

---

1. Introduction to the Episode

Marc Maron opens the episode with his characteristic candidness, delving into the current socio-political climate and the challenges of adapting to authoritarianism. He expresses his frustrations and urges listeners to take action against the overwhelming negative forces shaping society.

Notable Quote:

“Please just stop. This is fucking crazy.”
— Marc Maron [00:45]

2. Introducing Lynn Margulies and Her Documentary

Marc introduces Lynn Margulies, an artist and co-director of the 1989 documentary "I'm from Hollywood," which focuses on her late boyfriend, Andy Kaufman, and his foray into wrestling. He highlights the significance of Kaufman in the comedy world and introduces her new documentary, "Thank You Very Much," directed by Alex Braverman.

Notable Quote:

“Andy was a challenging, one-of-a-kind, comedic supernova...”
— Marc Maron [05:30]

3. The Evolution and Impact of Andy Kaufman

Lynn shares her initial skepticism about Andy Kaufman's unconventional comedy style, which often left audiences in a state of uncertainty and discomfort. Over time, she developed a deeper appreciation for his ability to blend reality with performance art, pushing the boundaries of traditional comedy.

Notable Quote:

“I just like people to put their heart on the line. And I don't know that maybe he thought he did that.”
— Lynn Margulies [08:15]

4. "Thank You Very Much" Documentary Insights

Lynn discusses how "Thank You Very Much" aims to humanize Andy Kaufman by exploring his childhood and life events before his performing years. The documentary seeks to unravel the complexities of his personality, which was often masked by his on-stage personas.

Notable Quote:

“It humanizes Andy in a way that hasn't been explored.”
— Marc Maron [12:05]

5. Personal Experiences with Andy Kaufman

Lynn recounts her personal experiences with Andy, detailing his dedication to his craft and his intricate relationship with peers and family. She touches upon Andy's struggles, including his battle with cancer, and his unique coping mechanisms, such as meditation and wrestling.

Notable Quote:

“At home, he was just a quiet, normal, intelligent, quiet person.”
— Lynn Margulies [19:00]

6. The Wrestling Phase and Its Significance

A significant portion of their conversation revolves around Andy's involvement in wrestling. Lynn explains that for Andy, wrestling was more than entertainment; it was an authentic expression of his creativity and a way to engage with the audience on a deeper level.

Notable Quote:

“He just did what he did because it was fun.”
— Lynn Margulies [22:45]

7. Andy Kaufman's Legacy and Mythologizing

Marc and Lynn discuss how Andy Kaufman's legacy has been shaped by those who managed his career posthumously, notably Bob Zamuda. They debate the fine line between recognizing Andy's genuine artistry and the myths that have grown around his persona.

Notable Quote:

“You never know what's real.”
— Lynn Margulies [35:55]

8. Challenges in Portraying Andy Kaufman

The duo delves into the difficulties faced in portraying Andy Kaufman's true self in media. They critique past representations, like "Man on the Moon," for not fully capturing Andy's vulnerability and the essence of his performances.

Notable Quote:

“He was really smart, but he had this very naive side.”
— Lynn Margulies [40:10]

9. Managing Andy's Estate and Preserving His Work

Lynn shares her efforts to preserve and disseminate Andy Kaufman's work, including creating compilation DVDs and battling with Andy's family over the rightful management of his estate. She emphasizes the importance of maintaining Andy's artistic integrity while honoring his promises.

Notable Quote:

“He made me promise to finish it.”
— Lynn Margulies [61:00]

10. Reflections on Personal Growth and Coping Mechanisms

Towards the end of the episode, Marc opens up about his own struggles with anxiety and the parallels he observes between his coping mechanisms and Andy's practices. Lynn provides insights into managing mental health, drawing from her experiences with Andy and her personal journey.

Notable Quote:

“I've got something at a deeper level, which I have to talk to the shrink about.”
— Marc Maron [50:10]

11. Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Marc and Lynn wrap up by reflecting on the profound impact Andy Kaufman had on their lives and the broader comedy landscape. They express mutual appreciation for the documentary and the continued efforts to keep Andy's legacy alive.

Notable Quote:

“He was like medicine.”
— Lynn Margulies [59:24]

---

Key Takeaways

• Andy Kaufman’s Unique Comedy: Andy was a pioneer in blending reality with performance art, creating a lasting impact on the comedy world.

• Humanizing a Legend: Lynn Margulies' documentary "Thank You Very Much" seeks to explore Andy's life beyond his on-stage persona, offering a deeper understanding of his character.

• Legacy Management: Preserving Andy's legacy involves navigating complex family dynamics and ensuring that his artistic vision remains intact.

• Personal Struggles and Coping: Both Marc and Lynn discuss their personal battles with mental health, drawing parallels to Andy’s coping mechanisms and the importance of support systems.

---

For those interested in delving deeper into Andy Kaufman's life and legacy, "Thank You Very Much" is now available in theaters and on digital platforms. Visit thankyouverymuch.drafthousefilms.com for more information.

---

Listen to the full episode here.

Transcript

[Marc Maron]

Lock the gate. All right, let's do this. How are you? What the fuckers. What the Buddies. What the Nicks? What's happening? How are you? I'm Mark Marin. This is my podcast. This is it. This is what I do. This and a few other things. How you guys adjusting to authoritarianism? How's that going for you? At some point, the despair and hopelessness and anger gives way to something and some sort of adaptation. You can fight the fight as long as you want. Boycott the Tesla. Boycott the Amazon. Make a sign. Get out there and protest with a sign that says, please just stop. This is fucking crazy. You know, bold letter, crazy. Bold letter, stop. So much coming at us at all times. Hard to be specific. All of it bad. Please just stop. This is fucking crazy. And vote and get behind people that you think can maybe surface in the future. But how are you adapting to authoritarianism? It's interesting with tragedy, isn't it? Covid? Climate change is eventually, you know, people are. Yeah. A few days go by, a few months go by, and they're like, well, I guess I'm relatively okay. And then you think about friends or family or people that aren't, and then you kind of feel bad and you want to help them out or try to change something. Please just stop. This is fucking crazy. That ought to do it. That ought to fucking do it. God damn it. It's just going to be awful for the rest of time. You got to find out. Find some sanity. Find some fucking sanity. Try to do the right thing by you and yours and get behind the right things and, you know, make those signs. Please just fucking stop. This is fucking crazy. I had a fucking. There's two fuckings in there. Now the bigger sign. So look, today on the show, I'm talking to Lynn Margulies. She's an artist and the co director of the 1989 documentary I'm from Hollywood. And that film was about her late boyfriend, Andy Kaufman, and his foray into wrestling. Now there's this new doc about Andy out, and she's part of it. The documentary is called thank youk Very Much, directed by Alex Braverman. It's been in the works a while. And I don't care if you're an Andy fan or not. You got to know about Kaufman. You got to know about him. I mean, you know, he was a challenging, one of a kind, comedic supernova of a certain ilk. He's the only one. There's only one Andy Kaufman. And he has influenced a lot of people. I mean, really, in terms of real punk rock comedy, real comedy that bends reality into something that you don't really know what is happening or understand why it's happening. And you're forced into this time zone of. Of laughing, discomfort, sometimes repulsion, sometimes anger. Any zone of reaction was. Was fine with Andy as long as it was focused on him and what he was doing. I mean, some of it is relentlessly uncomfortable. And for me, I don't know that I was a fan early on. I am a more kind of real guy, you know, I don't. I'm not a huge fan of absurdism or bending reality or challenging in the way that he did. I just like people to put their heart on the line. And I don't know that maybe he thought he did that. I don't know that. It doesn't seem like he did. It was more of a provocateur kind of thing, but it wasn't my bag. But I did cultivate an appreciation for Andy as years went by. And there's some things that he did as I get older that I appreciate even more. And I missed a lot of it. I feel like I did. But his Carnegie hall concert was spectacular. There's a bit in there that is one of the best things I've ever seen in my life. I talked to Lynn a bit about that, but there is something about this doc, and we've talked to a lot of people on this show about Andy, people who worked with Andy, and we've got a pretty good catalog of just people talking about Andy on this show, which is pretty comprehensive. But this documentary did something that I think has never really been done. It humanizes Andy in a way that hasn't been explored. You know, making connections in his childhood and in his life through events pre his performing years that could somehow put him more into perspective, explain some elements of his personality, which was hard to really kind of nail down because he was moving through so many. And whoever the real Andy Kaufman was, who. Who knows who their real self is, really, but he kind of played a lot with that. But this doc really tries to. To get at that. And I didn't know where the Conversation with Lyn would go, but, you know, we got some places about him and about the arc of what he was going through and how he seemingly sabotaged his career and his relationships in the name of his expression. I don't think he ever considered himself a performance artist or an artist necessarily, but he was someone who had to do what he was doing. Thank God he did, because God knows what he would have been had he not done that. But the documentary is totally worth watching. It's called thank you Very Much and I believe it's available. It's now playing in theaters and is available to watch on digital on demand platforms. You can go to thank you very much drafthouse films.com for, for more details. But it's a pretty great portrait and biography of one of the great American artists of comedy, certainly. And in the doc they even got, you know, Bob Zamuda to talk like a person and really just reflect on his friendship with Andy as opposed to continue mythologizing him and, and insinuating that he's still alive or, or what have you. And they talked to a lot of people who worked with him and people who had thoughts about him. It's, it's, it's a pretty solid doc and I was happy I saw it. I'll be in Grand Rapids, Michigan. I'm coming to GLC Live at 20 Monroe on Friday, April 11, and then Traverse City, Michigan. I'll be at the City Opera House on Saturday, April 12 in Los Angeles. I'm at Dynasty Typewriter Monday, April 14, Saturday, April 26, and Tuesday, April 29. Those are all at 7:30pm Largo in LA. I've got an 8pm show on Tuesday, April 22. Then I'm coming to Toronto, Vermont, New Hampshire, and then Brooklyn for my HBO special taping at the Bam Harvey Theater on May 10th. Go to wtfpod.com tour for all my dates and links to tickets if you want to get in on that HBO taping. I would get in on it. I think that the, the tickets are moving pretty quickly and there's not a ton left. In other news, let's get mundane. Let's get to the minutia. Let's get to what's happening in my immediate world. I'm finally back for a few days and as I've talked about before, the problem with Charlie. The problem with Charlie. Charlie is my youngest cat. Charlie is a asshole. He's a spoiled brat and he's a troublemaker. But on another level, when I leave town, he goes through profound stress that causes him to lash out at the other cats, causes him to vomit, causes him to shit all over the house, diarrhea with stress induced colitis. And it's, it's a problem. It's not a fun thing to come home to. And once he was diagnosed with this stress induced separation anxiety thing that manifests in all these different ways, the vet and I've talked about this before, but you know, we've. We've moved forward a bit here. The vet prescribed Fluxetine. Is that what it is? Fluxetine, Prozac for the cat. And as I mentioned before, I projected my own issues with me taking Prozac onto the cat. And it's an ongoing conversation. And I'm on medicine now, too, for the first time in many years with some confidence in it. But I just. I really was concerned about Charlie's personality. I didn't want to mess with his asshole Ness. Now, look, when you have a cat, it's an odd relationship because they're all kind of crazy and they all go through periods of insanity that destroys your house one way or the other, whether it's, oh, he's peeing too outside the box when he gets stressed, whether it's pee or vomit or destruction of furniture or when they get old, whether or not. How long do you extend their lives with. With fluids. And, you know, they. There's all kinds of different phases, and their personalities change over time. I've had a lot of cats. I know this. But there's something about the assholes that the longer they stay an asshole, the more if you're like me, who's kind of a stubborn, asshole, ish person at times, you know, I like that. I like it to a point. You still get mad. But that's part of the dynamic, is being able to go, oh, fuck, Charlie, why'd you do this? Why is that a good thing? I don't know. But I decided since I do have a little travel coming up and, you know, maybe I didn't want to deal with all that nonsense, that I'd go ahead and do the Prozac. And that means you have to administer medicine to a fucking cat. And for some reason, no matter how far pet medicine comes, there's no easy way or a delivery system to give cats fucking medicine. You know, you can't give cats pills. Maybe some people can, but I've never had a cat that I could give a pill to effectively, you know, unless I mash it up and mash it into chicken. And when I was treating monkey for the hypertension, but there's just no fucking way. And they hate you. You know, you're squirting stuff in their mouth and they hate you for a little while. And I take it personally. I'm too. I anthropomorphize too much. But, like, I've gotten. You know, I can get the Prozac into Charlie. So I got him on it for two days now. It's been three days, and I'm pretty sure that, like, you know, I've just. I've. You know, I feel like because of the nature of the dynamic I have with the few cats that I have, there's a community there. And some part of me feels like I just lobotomized McMurphy. It's just. It's just ridiculous, you know? And I have this conversation with Kit. I'm like, well, you know, I just don't. I don't want to lose him or change him, even though cats change and even though this is an issue that I don't want to deal with anymore. But I wasn't really thinking of the cat. You know, Kit was like, look, you know, he's. It's not. He. He's not happy when he's shitting everywhere and peeing out of the box or throwing up or beating up on the other cats. It's not, you know, you're. You're providing a happier life for him. And I just. You know, I still couldn't wrap my brain around it. It's ridiculous. And it's ridiculous that some part of me is sort of like, hey, you know, I mean, diarrhea literally everywhere in the house. In some surprising places, I just found some diarrhea, Dried diarrhea on top of the bookshelf where. Where. Where Charlie sometimes kind of goes if. If he's scared or Kip brings the. The. The bull terrier over. So I. Look, I've come around to it, but today I went through, like. I was like, is he fucked up already? Is he. Like. He seems lethargic. He seems like he's not happy. I don't know what to do. And I called the vet, and I want to know exactly what happens to cats on Prozac. It's a lot of energy, and I think it's probably the best thing for him at least to try it, since I'm gonna be away a bit, and maybe he'll be more comfortable when I'm away. Maybe he won't. I mean, Buster is hissing at Charlie for days now. I don't even know what the fuck happened in this house when I left this last time. But there was a major battle. I'm thinking, am I doing Buster's bidding? Is Charlie the rightful alpha of this small crew? And now, like, you know, I've diminished his ability to focus on being that and Buster. I'm just. I'm just keeping Buster king, which isn't bad, I guess, but it does. You know, it's like what am I taking away from? See, I'm still spiraling about it. It's stupid. Also, I. I mentioned, well, it must be a week or so that I'm taking this. This medicine now. Busporin. Busporine, something like that. But it's, you know, I decided I was done with the anxiety of panic and my brain choosing to spiral sometimes for days about things that aren't real, they're possible, but they're not real. And it's a manifestation of intrusive thought, obsessional anxiety, whatever. But I decided to try the medicine, and it's been a week or so, and I think something's happening. And it's surprising what's happening because it gives me more confidence in the decision to take it. Like, it's one thing when you have cognitive problems, like I do. Like I know what's happening in my brain and I know when it's happening. And I can make a choice to try to stop it, you know, in a cognitive way. You know, whatever it is, meditation or exercise or trying to stop the noise in the head or get present, whatever, you know, the cognitive tools are for stopping these patterns of thought that I am conscious of happening. But something seems to be happening on a deeper level, which I find interesting, and I gotta talk to the shrink about it when I go back there to check in. But I've noticed, and I don't know if it's possible, I've noticed that I'm breathing better now. I don't know where you hold your anxiety or stress or panic, but my chest tightens up, always has. And all of a sudden I've noticed that I'm breathing better. And also I'm sleeping better and deeper. And also, according to my whoop watch, my recovery has been better than usual, which means less stress. So I think that this medicine is operating at a deep level on that part of my brain that is, you know, constantly in a certain amount of fight or flight, a certain amount of panic. And I hope that's true. I don't know what other people's experience are with this medicine. Busporine, Busporin. But it seems to be that what I'm noticing before anything else is something at a level that is, you know, I cannot change cognitively. Deeper. And it's having real effects on my, My, My body in the way of. Of breathing easier and in the way of better recovery. Because apparently I'm not sleeping as stressfully or I'm not as stressed in general doing just life stuff. So that is positive also. And this is where you can chime in. Because somebody hit me to. I was talking about walnut oil, and it's pretty common that people who listen to this show, they'll chime in. And some guy was going at it with, on the email about pecan oil. He's got this place, Oliver Farms or something. I'm not sure I should know better, but it's. I think the word Oliver is in it. But. But they do all the oils. They do all these cold press oils. They got pecan oil, they got pumpkin oil, they got okra seed oil. They got, you know, linseed. I think they. But the pecan oil because he said pecans are better even than walnuts in terms of the omegas and the health benefits. So I'm like, I'm turning into this oil weirdo. It's not. And it's not snake oil. It's nut oil. I'm not even, you know, saying it's anything other than what it is. And, you know, I'm hoping for the best, but I've become, like, kind of proponent, a nut oil proponent. I got no grift. I got. I'm not making any money on the back end of this, and I'm not trying to. To sell you any sort of health hokum, But I did buy some pecan oil and some pumpkin seed oil and some okra seed oil. And the only reason I got the okra seed oil was because this guy that sometimes drives me to the airport, Tom, his old Armenian guy, he had heard that okra seeds bring your cholesterol down. I don't even know it's true. I can't even find any research on it. But I'm like, well, fuck it, I'll get some okra oil. But now when I make a smoothie, it's a teaspoon of the pecan oil, teaspoon of the walnut oil, and a teaspoon of the pumpkin seed oil, because those are the ones, man. So now I don't know again. All I know is that since I've been vegan and I'd like to credit the oils with the lack of inflammation in my arthritic toes. And again, I'm not trying to pitch anything to you, but I would like some feedback. Huh? Anyone got any. Any word, any info, any word on the street about okra seeds? Huh? What do you know? Tell me the pros and cons of the pumpkin oil. Pumpkin seed oil. What do you got? Pecan oil. What do you know? I mean, I started with walnut oil, but now I'M going oil nuts on nut oil. Yeah, it's happening. Okay, so Lynn Margulies, the documentary she appears in. Thank you very much. About Andy Kaufman, her late boyfriend, she was with him the last couple years of his life, is now playing in theaters and is available to watch on digital on demand platforms. You can go to thankyouverymuch.drafthousefilms.com for more details. And this is me talking to Lynn Margolis. Let me take a minute to tell you about two great new additions to my life. The carom and the heart. Those are the two rugs I just got from Revival Rugs, and they're perfect folks. I'm a rug freak, and it's not usually an easy decision. Rugs can be way overpriced and low quality. Revival's founders don't want you spending thousands on a rug, but they don't want you settling for less either. Their most popular line is Revival's Genuine Washable rugs, which are truly 100 washable, but have the look and feel of a real rug so you don't have to sacrifice style for convenience. I picked out my rugs from the revival site, and it was totally easy to find exactly the right rugs for my space. Visit RevivalRugs.com WTF and use code WTF20 for 20% off your first order. Once again, that's RevivalRugs.com WTFand use code WTF20. Nothing beats that feeling of instantly transforming a room with a new rug. I just had that feeling twice. And now it's your turn one more time. Revival rugs.com WTF with code WTF20 to save 20%. So you have. You live in New Yorkville?

[Lynn Margulies]

No, I live up on the Oregon coast.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, really?

[Lynn Margulies]

I'm from here.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. When did you run away to Oregon?

[Lynn Margulies]

That was my most recent running away. I grew up in San Fernando.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, really?

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So you had to get away pretty. You had to.

[Lynn Margulies]

I got away early and then came back, then went away, then came back. I lived in San Francisco for 15 years.

[Marc Maron]

Really?

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Where?

[Lynn Margulies]

At first I started in Noe Valley.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. That's nice.

[Lynn Margulies]

You know Noe Valley?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, I lived there for a couple years.

[Lynn Margulies]

I lived on 24th street above the Wells Fargo.

[Marc Maron]

Okay. Yeah. What years were that?

[Lynn Margulies]

That was when Andy was alive.

[Marc Maron]

It was.

[Lynn Margulies]

So that was 80. I went up in 81, 82, 83. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But so what's it. Because, like, how do you. When you watch this documentary, you think it does the job?

[Lynn Margulies]

It does. Because you know what? Including me Because I'm a filmmaker. Everyone who made something about Andy, just. It was his performances, like one performance after another. And. But what Alex wanted to do when I met him, I could just tell he wanted to figure out what was underneath it all.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, I think this is the first time that's happened.

[Lynn Margulies]

It's the first time.

[Marc Maron]

And I think, because, you know, I've talked to Bob, I know I re.

[Lynn Margulies]

Listened to that.

[Marc Maron]

It's crazy.

[Lynn Margulies]

Oh, what a storyteller, eh?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, well, I mean, but the problem is, I think one of the issues with Andy, especially with Zamuda as the guy in charge of the myth and the legacy and me. Yes, but he.

[Lynn Margulies]

Immortal.

[Marc Maron]

No, but I mean, but he, like, was public facing all the time. I mean, he was doing that on purpose. I mean, there were. There were points where, like, it was, you know, your place in this doc and in terms of the legacy was the human thing.

[Lynn Margulies]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

And Zamuda, you know, for, I think most of his life, you know, after Andy died, was concerned with continuing the myth. And at the end, there's a little suggestion of that. But, you know, when you talk to Zamuda, it's tall tales, right. With cryptic endings, you know, that suggest something. And I know, though he won't cop to it, that, you know, he was doing Clifton after. Long after Andy died, and everyone knew that. But Bob was like, no, no, you know, whatever, you know.

[Lynn Margulies]

Well, yeah, there's Clifton and there's Clifton.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And Clifton's, you know, he's. He can be inhabited by whoever wants to inhabit Clifton.

[Lynn Margulies]

And I was gonna say, when someone does Clifton, they change. Like Jim Carrey.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Oh, yeah, that was great.

[Lynn Margulies]

I was on the film the whole time. And. Yeah, I mean, you just. You become Clifton and you do stuff you would never do, right?

[Marc Maron]

Well, yeah. Cause you have freedom.

[Lynn Margulies]

You have total freedom.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Lynn Margulies]

Oh, boy.

[Marc Maron]

But I thought this doc, in terms of answering certain questions and making and suggesting certain things that were kind of investigative, you know, on behalf of Alex, the director, in terms of making those connections, you know, around the death of Andy's grandfather and then the impact of the Maharishi. I mean, that's the whole core of the thing on some level. But I mean, whatever Andy did with it, he did with it. But I guess in terms of you, there seems to be a responsibility on behalf of the people that love the guy to sort of make sure the legacy stays alive.

[Lynn Margulies]

Well, he actually made us promise. Me and Bob both.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Lynn Margulies]

You know, I mean, he actually did. Bob says that Andy made him promise to Keep Clifton alive. And that's true. And what Andy made me promise. Cause we were working on, I'm From Hollywood at the time, which is that documentary. He made me promise to finish it. And then he said I had to promise him that I would get his work out into the world.

[Marc Maron]

But this is before he was sick.

[Lynn Margulies]

This was when he was sick.

[Marc Maron]

Okay.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So the I'm from Hollywood. That's the Fred Blassi one.

[Lynn Margulies]

No, that Time. That's My Breakfast with Blassie. I'm From Hollywood is about his wrestling in Memphis.

[Marc Maron]

Oh. Oh, right, right.

[Lynn Margulies]

Oh, you should see it. It's funny.

[Marc Maron]

I think I have seen it.

[Lynn Margulies]

It's funny.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. I mean, I found him funnier as I get older, I find him more funny.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

You know, I don't know. Because I'm kind of a straight standup, you know, and when you're in the.

[Lynn Margulies]

Midst of it, you're like, well, there's.

[Marc Maron]

The Kaufman school and then there's the other school. And he's singular. So anybody who is playing around in that area, you're always gonna get like, oh, he's doing an Andy Coughlin thing.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And there are guys who do the Andy Coughlin thing now.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah, well, there were.

[Marc Maron]

I mean, I knew guys that were so influenced by him, like Dave Cross early on. And there were other cats that were doing the kind of. Is this real? Is this not real? But when you. And I'm glad that Lori Anderson was in there, because I talked to her and she told me about her relationship with Andy, and I didn't think it was a known thing, but I guess she did.

[Lynn Margulies]

It wasn't really.

[Marc Maron]

But that song they played, is that an existing song?

[Lynn Margulies]

Which song is it?

[Marc Maron]

Behind Andy. She does one of her. Laurie Anderson.

[Lynn Margulies]

Oh, yeah. And she mentions Andy. Yeah, that's an existing song. I heard that back in the 90s.

[Marc Maron]

Oh. So that was. So it was always kind of there. It was such an odd connection, him connected to, you know, and it makes perfect sense.

[Lynn Margulies]

Before either of them were famous.

[Marc Maron]

Well, yeah, but it would have been. He knew that he was doing something that transcended standup early on, that it was more of a. I don't know how he would have framed it.

[Lynn Margulies]

He didn't think that way.

[Marc Maron]

Right. But he was in comedy clubs. He was.

[Lynn Margulies]

Because that's the only place he could do that stuff. Where else would he do it? Out on the streets. Which he did.

[Marc Maron]

Right. Or in performance art spaces down the Lower east side. So how old were you when you met him?

[Lynn Margulies]

Oh, God. I was a baby. I was 27 when he died. And, you know, we were just together for two years.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Lynn Margulies]

I met him in 82, right after he got the neck. Bracey was Breakfast With Blassie was shot just after the David Letterman show where he got slapped.

[Marc Maron]

Right. Yeah. Okay.

[Lynn Margulies]

And I was in Breakfast With Blassie. I'm the one that.

[Marc Maron]

Right, you talked to him.

[Lynn Margulies]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

And you were working on that set or what was it?

[Lynn Margulies]

My brother is Johnny Legend, who directed it.

[Marc Maron]

Okay.

[Lynn Margulies]

And I was living up in the mountains of Northern California. I didn't know who Andy was. I didn't have a tv.

[Marc Maron]

Really?

[Lynn Margulies]

Nothing.

[Marc Maron]

Well, what was that about living up there? Yeah.

[Lynn Margulies]

I'm just not an LA girl, you know, I'm not an LA girl. So the.

[Marc Maron]

But the decision to not have a TV and to, you know, I just didn't care.

[Lynn Margulies]

I just didn't care.

[Marc Maron]

How about now?

[Lynn Margulies]

I watch TV now. Yeah, yeah. We like to binge watch shows, but left to my own devices, I wouldn't watch TV that much, I don't think.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah, no, I get it. And so you're on this set and you're just taken with this guy.

[Lynn Margulies]

Well, no, what happened is they put us in an empty room and so we. Myself, Linda Lautrec, who was the co producer, her sister and Andy's assistant, Linda. They just put us behind them at the table, behind them. And they said, just eat. Just.

[Marc Maron]

Right, Right. Background.

[Lynn Margulies]

And then I got sucked in. They sucked me in, you know, to the scene. And I didn't know who Andy was. I knew Fred. I've known Fred since I was six.

[Marc Maron]

How come?

[Lynn Margulies]

Because my brother used to take me to the Olympic Auditorium with him when I was 6 years old to watch the wrestling. Yeah. So Fred, Freddie, I'd known almost all my life. But who's. I don't know who Andy Kaufman is.

[Marc Maron]

You know, what is it about? You know, it's interesting because. What. The wrestling thing that. I think the documentary is very good because it allows you to assess the full arc of what he was up to, you know, in all its forms. But then ultimately the wrestling, especially since, you know, what the country's become, was really a fairly astute and intuitive, you know, reaction, or trying to understand the culture we live in.

[Lynn Margulies]

You know, everyone wants to assign stuff like that to Andy. He just loved wrestling. I mean, period. He just loved wrestling. He loved the bad guy, good guy stuff.

[Marc Maron]

Sure, right. But for him to evolve to kind of land there as his almost his last major work. Right. It has you know, you can't remove him from the culture, right?

[Lynn Margulies]

No, you can't. But he wasn't thinking of that.

[Marc Maron]

I know. He just.

[Lynn Margulies]

When. At the end of his career when no one would hire him anymore because of all of his shenanigans, he said, well, maybe I'll just be a wrestling manager now.

[Marc Maron]

I mean, he just loved wrestling.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah, he loved. He loved. I mean, and if you think about it, everything he did was wrestling his entire career. It was like, you're one thing, then you're another. You're a good guy, then you're a bad guy.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Lynn Margulies]

You know, throw everyone for a loop and everything. If you look at all of his stuff he did, it's all wrestling.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And I also like the idea of any reaction.

[Lynn Margulies]

Any reaction was good.

[Marc Maron]

That's a good reaction.

[Lynn Margulies]

Oh, he loved it. The madder people got at him, the happier he was.

[Marc Maron]

Well, that's a very unique person.

[Lynn Margulies]

I know. To not care.

[Marc Maron]

To not care, but on another level, to, you know, embrace any kind of attention.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I mean, there's a not caring to it, but when people are mad at you, it's almost a more focused, more intense attention than if they like you.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah, it's true. They are really focused on you.

[Marc Maron]

Totally.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah. And he just soaked it up. He loved it.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. We have a president like that now. I don't know what you do with people like that when they're evil intended, when they want any kind of attention.

[Lynn Margulies]

I know. Have you seen. Back the first time Trump was in office, someone put out a picture of him unzipping himself and Andy was stepping out.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, God, that's. That's pretty smart.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I wish that would have happened.

[Lynn Margulies]

That was the first. First time.

[Marc Maron]

Is that. So what does Andy represent? That's interesting. You know, what, what. What Andy represents to people. But your experience with him, you know, like after you. You met him, I mean, do you get. Do you feel like there's this idea of. In the doc that's kind of kicked around a bit? The real Andy.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Do you feel like you saw that?

[Lynn Margulies]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Andy, when he wasn't doing stuff, which he was a lot, you know, just.

[Marc Maron]

At home, he was doing stuff at home. At the restaurant?

[Lynn Margulies]

No, not at the restaurant, but out in public, on the streets, he would suddenly start doing stuff. He'd start strangling me, you know, stuff like that. But at home, he was just a quiet. Just normal, intelligent, quiet person.

[Marc Maron]

Funny?

[Lynn Margulies]

Not really, no. I mean, he never told jokes or anything. He was not funny. He was A guy.

[Marc Maron]

He wasn't quick witted or anything.

[Lynn Margulies]

No, he was just really intelligent. Highly intelligent.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. But yeah, and so that's kind of interesting. So the entire thing had to be a. It always had to be a show.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And when you guys started doing so, I guess As a 27 year old you're just excited to be 25. 25. And he was how old?

[Lynn Margulies]

He was, I think eight years older than me.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Lynn Margulies]

Seven years older than me.

[Marc Maron]

So it was probably just kind of weird fun.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah. And see, that's the thing is I was very like him. I didn't. I could give a shit about famous people.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Lynn Margulies]

I didn't care.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Lynn Margulies]

It's just he and I were really alike and I was just floating through life. I had no ambitions. I didn't want to be an actress. I didn't want to be this. I didn't want to be that.

[Marc Maron]

Did you grow up in show business?

[Lynn Margulies]

No, but my brother was Johnny Legend.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Lynn Margulies]

My dad was a doctor. My mom was a nurse out in the Valley. Out in the Valley? In San Fernando.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Lynn Margulies]

Orange Grove Avenue.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Lynn Margulies]

And so I was just floating along. I wasn't. And so it was perfect because what was like.

[Marc Maron]

So when were you born?

[Lynn Margulies]

57.

[Marc Maron]

So you were here like. I mean, Hollywood in the 70s was crazy.

[Lynn Margulies]

I guess so.

[Marc Maron]

But I mean, you didn't like. When you were like going out, did it. What was the vibe? So you met andy in the 80s, right?

[Lynn Margulies]

I met him in 82.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lynn Margulies]

In the 70s. Yeah. We used to go to Hollywood Boulevard and hang out and stuff.

[Marc Maron]

Pretty crazy.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Dirty and weird.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And crowded.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Lynn Margulies]

I mean, Hollywood Boulevard was nuts on the weekends.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. So when you guys. What was Andy doing when you met him, performance wise?

[Lynn Margulies]

He was still doing Taxi.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, he was?

[Lynn Margulies]

Yep. He was still on Taxi.

[Marc Maron]

But it was tense. Or was it.

[Lynn Margulies]

It was always tense. Yeah. I remember one time we were sitting in his. We were meditating in his dressing room and they were out there rehearsing and. And what's his name?

[Marc Maron]

DeVito.

[Lynn Margulies]

No, no, no, no, no, no. The guy who's in my film. You have to. I'm getting old and I lose things.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, yeah.

[Lynn Margulies]

I have a lacuna brain now. No, the boxer.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, Danza.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah. He was pounding on the door.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Lynn Margulies]

Andy, get your ass out here. Get it. And I open my eyes and Andy's just sitting there with his little smile on his face, you know?

[Marc Maron]

What a difficult thing for everybody.

[Lynn Margulies]

Oh, I know. They all hate. I mean, Danny didn't Hate him.

[Marc Maron]

But Larry Lou, when I watched the doc, I realized, like, Judd's gotta hate this guy's too.

[Lynn Margulies]

Judd hated him.

[Marc Maron]

This guy still hated him.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And he's like 90 something.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I worked with him.

[Lynn Margulies]

He said hated him. I know. I saw. I watched your show. I saw it.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, good. Yeah. And. But yeah, it's a lot to deal with. And Andy just didn't.

[Lynn Margulies]

He didn't care.

[Marc Maron]

But do you think that on some level, was he. Did he. Did he lack empathy?

[Lynn Margulies]

Yes. Yeah, he did. Except for certain things. Like, I know there was, like, people he would visit in the hospital.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, yeah.

[Lynn Margulies]

He would go visit people in the hospital every now and again.

[Marc Maron]

Random people.

[Lynn Margulies]

Someone he knew. No, people he knew. Like, some woman was in the hospital and he'd go visit her when he was in town. But no, he really didn't. He was in his own. It was Andy's world. It was his world.

[Marc Maron]

Well, it's fortunate he was talented.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yes, exactly. Yeah. Who knows what would have happened to him if he wasn't.

[Marc Maron]

Well, when you were with him, did you guys. Cause there's a lot of stuff he talks about that I didn't know. Tracking his life, this idea that hadn't he found tm, he would have been a drug addict. Yeah. Do you think that's true?

[Lynn Margulies]

He said it was.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Lynn Margulies]

I mean, he said it over and over again, that he was living in a park and he was doing drugs and he was drinking. And then he said TM saved him.

[Marc Maron]

That footage of him asking the Maharishi that question, who the hell had that?

[Lynn Margulies]

How did he find it? The TM archives, they actually went to, you know, Lauren. Lauren got it all done.

[Marc Maron]

That is crazy.

[Lynn Margulies]

Lauren Belfor. I know, I know.

[Marc Maron]

It's a crazy moment where, you know, his question is so specific. And at that time, he knew that somehow or another comedy was the answer for him.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And, you know, the question about the nature of comedy, and that Maharishi answered it with this idea of. I can't remember exactly what he said. Something about silence. Right?

[Lynn Margulies]

Something about silence. Yeah. It all comes down to silence.

[Marc Maron]

And then you have this realization. It's the same with David lynch in a way that they create a zone of experience that is not really easily or able to be processed by an.

[Lynn Margulies]

Audience, by normal humans.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And you're suspended in it.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah. Yeah. I love that.

[Marc Maron]

Well, like, that. That kind of blew my mind that they create. It's not a meditative state, but it is a altered perception.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

And it's happening in the moment.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

And that's kind of crazy.

[Lynn Margulies]

I know Andy, at the end of his life, they had cards printed up. He was going to do a tour called On Creating Reality.

[Marc Maron]

Huh. Do you know what was that was about?

[Lynn Margulies]

I think he was going to fill it with a lot of mumbo jumbo, you know, but still, because all of us, everyone out in the world, are all trying to put a name to what he did and put a reason to what he did and, like, figure out what he did. And he just laughed at that because he just did what he did because it was fun.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Lynn Margulies]

So he was going to do this tour called On Creating Reality.

[Marc Maron]

Well, it's the interesting thing about a person who, you know, there's only. I've only met a few that they get this idea in their head, and no matter whether it makes sense or not, you know, there's something about the, you know, conjuring it that the. The will to commit to it is. Is crazy.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Because you know, why?

[Lynn Margulies]

And then the will to see it through.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Like why?

[Lynn Margulies]

Why?

[Marc Maron]

And then they.

[Lynn Margulies]

And everyone wants to figure out why.

[Marc Maron]

Well, that's like. But I guess that's the nature of a real artist, right, Is that you don't answer the questions.

[Lynn Margulies]

No, but a lot of them do. That's the thing. A lot of them do. Especially if they do stuff like Andy did. They can't stand the backlash. They have to let on. You know, doesn't everyone, like, finally explain what they're doing or why they're doing?

[Marc Maron]

I guess so. But how are you even going to explain from the beginning, how are you going to explain, you know, the. What was it, the Mighty Mouse thing or how. You can explain that.

[Lynn Margulies]

You can't.

[Marc Maron]

No, you can't.

[Lynn Margulies]

She's doing it right.

[Marc Maron]

You can explain foreign guy.

[Lynn Margulies]

And why is it funny?

[Marc Maron]

Well, yeah, well, that's. Well, I think that's the real genius part, is that it is still a commitment to comedy.

[Lynn Margulies]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

And you still get to a point where you're like, holy shit, you're laughing. Because it's crazy.

[Lynn Margulies]

He thought of himself more as vaudeville.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, I could see that.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah. Not comedy. He never thought of himself having to do with comedy. It was vaudeville.

[Marc Maron]

So you're with him when he gets fired or when Taxi ends.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Did he. He must have seen it coming or. No, I guess not. It had nothing to do with him that the show was stopped.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah. He was relieved.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. He really hated doing Taxi because he was stuck.

[Lynn Margulies]

He felt like he was sold out. Sold out. Foreign man. And, you know, made it commercial. But on the other hand, it made him money, and it made him able to do all the other things he did because he was famous.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Lynn Margulies]

So he could do all these things and be on shows and, you know, do stuff in the streets and stuff, because he was famous because of taxis.

[Marc Maron]

And this is before the Jerry's Deli or after? It's after. He worked at Jerry's. Right?

[Lynn Margulies]

Jerry's was during Taxi.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. You weren't with him, though?

[Lynn Margulies]

No, no, he wasn't doing that then.

[Marc Maron]

I kind of remember that being a thing like, you know, coming out here. I was in New York and, you.

[Lynn Margulies]

Know, there's this guy working at Coffins.

[Marc Maron]

Working at Jerry's, and I'm like, that's crazy.

[Lynn Margulies]

I know. Yeah, I know.

[Marc Maron]

Oh. And so what happens after Taxi ends with you guys?

[Lynn Margulies]

That's when it started being. Well, he was still on Letterman, but he.

[Marc Maron]

Letterman, I think, liked him.

[Lynn Margulies]

Letterman loved him. Letterman loved Andy. At the time, I think Andy had been the guest more times than anyone else.

[Marc Maron]

Was that the period where he brought the adopted kids on?

[Lynn Margulies]

Yes. And I was with. Yeah, yeah. In fact, we met them at Times Square. We went to Times Square, and they.

[Marc Maron]

Were just guys on the street.

[Lynn Margulies]

They were at an arcade playing games. And Andy just started talking to him. I mean.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Lynn Margulies]

And said, hey, you want to be on Letterman with me?

[Marc Maron]

And they didn't really know him, or one of them did.

[Lynn Margulies]

They might have known who he was.

[Marc Maron]

So he literally found those guys in Times Square and then walked up to the studio with them.

[Lynn Margulies]

Not that day.

[Marc Maron]

Not that day, no.

[Lynn Margulies]

He got, you know, he got their phone numbers and stuff and then got them together to go on Letterman and say they were his adopted sons.

[Marc Maron]

It's a crazy moment where Letterman's just stuck with them out in the studio.

[Lynn Margulies]

I know.

[Marc Maron]

And trying to have a guest conversation.

[Lynn Margulies]

I know, I know.

[Marc Maron]

And you were backstage for that.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And then, like, now, the Elvis bit must have been planned, Right?

[Lynn Margulies]

Was that that show?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Where one of the kids says he did Elvis or something.

[Lynn Margulies]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Because. And then he chose to come out with the bad wig and the jacket that thought Elvis badly and just do Elvis in that jacket.

[Lynn Margulies]

Right. Do it badly, yeah. That was like. He told one of the kids to say that.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And at what point? I mean, I just. I'm trying to figure out what public perception was of him at that time.

[Lynn Margulies]

It was pretty bad because he'd been.

[Marc Maron]

Thrown out of snl and he'd done.

[Lynn Margulies]

All the wrestling, and, you Know that was already done.

[Marc Maron]

The wrestling.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah. He'd done. Well, the wrestling. Women. He was still wrestling in Memphis. No one knew he was doing the wrestling in Memphis because if you think about it, cable wasn't big at that time, so.

[Marc Maron]

And wrestling's all over the place now.

[Lynn Margulies]

But not back then. No one knew him. No one knew he was going to Memphis and do all wrestling guys. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. So he's just being a wrestler.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And that's where he pissed off. What's his name? Lawler.

[Lynn Margulies]

Lawler. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

That wasn't about the woman. That was about him calling out, being a heel and calling Lawler out.

[Lynn Margulies]

Right. But after the neck brace thing, after the head, the. He kept going back because he wanted to get revenge. And that's what no one knew about. That's what's in I'm From Hollywood, is him going back to get revenge on Lawler. And he went over and over and over and over again back to Memphis.

[Marc Maron]

That was the. When he hurt his neck, that's when Lawler dropped him.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah. That was in April 5th of 1982.

[Marc Maron]

Did he really hurt his neck?

[Lynn Margulies]

Sorta. Not as bad. You know, he didn't need to keep wearing that neck brace till it was like, filthy and falling apart.

[Marc Maron]

But he was committed to the heel.

[Lynn Margulies]

He was committed to it. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And this was his career. Was he making money?

[Lynn Margulies]

No, no, he never cashed. They did pay him, but he never cashed a single check from the wrestling. Yeah, he just went. So that's what was going on all through 83, basically, was him going to Memphis and wrestling.

[Marc Maron]

I'm trying. So what do you make of it?

[Lynn Margulies]

What do I make of it?

[Marc Maron]

Because, like, you know, I know that, you know, you can say that he was just having a good time, but I don't think he was.

[Lynn Margulies]

He was. Oh, he absolutely was.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Lynn Margulies]

He wouldn't have done it. It was fun. He was just having fun.

[Marc Maron]

So he had no. I guess what's interesting, hard for me to wrap my brain around, was that there, the element that most people call, like, self sabotage. Right. Is when you fuck your career up.

[Lynn Margulies]

Right. Like he did.

[Marc Maron]

Right. But, you know, and that's usually attributed to people that aren't quite aware of it or have no control over that.

[Lynn Margulies]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

But it seems to me that out of his, you know, boredom and anger.

[Lynn Margulies]

You'Re putting that on him.

[Marc Maron]

Well, no, to Taxi.

[Lynn Margulies]

Oh, Taxi.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. That the idea would be to blow it up. And he couldn't seem to do it while he was there, even though he tried in so many ways almost. It seems like he was trying to get fired. He was defying them.

[Lynn Margulies]

Well, there was that one time Tony got fired.

[Marc Maron]

Right. But the character was so popular, they couldn't let it go.

[Lynn Margulies]

They couldn't let it go. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And they just couldn't.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah, they couldn't get rid of him.

[Marc Maron]

He was holding them hostage.

[Lynn Margulies]

He was actually. Yeah, they couldn't get rid of him. He was the most popular person on the show, I think.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, my God. The whole thing is like an art piece. But, you know, he's not gonna cop to that.

[Lynn Margulies]

But he wasn't doing it as.

[Marc Maron]

No, I know, I know. But like, when you look at. When you see it, when we look.

[Lynn Margulies]

At it, when we look at it.

[Marc Maron]

The implications of it in terms of show business, in terms of all that stuff.

[Lynn Margulies]

Exactly.

[Marc Maron]

He turns it on its head by creating his own reality.

[Lynn Margulies]

And then on all the other shows, like on Fridays, when he got in the fight with Michael Richards.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, when he goes and gets the cue cards.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah. And he throws the water on him. And then Letterman, where he gets slapped. Oops, sorry. And what's the other one? He screwed up. There was another one, I can't remember. But anyway, yeah, he was just. And you would think he was doing it on purpose to sabotage his career, but he was just doing wrestling.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Well, I think, like, for me, like, that Carnegie hall concert is the best thing ever.

[Lynn Margulies]

Oh, it's amazing, isn't it?

[Marc Maron]

It's the best thing ever. And even in the doc, they don't let on that that woman may or may not have died.

[Lynn Margulies]

That was perfect. They did it so well.

[Marc Maron]

But that in the dock, that is the one thing that they don't reveal.

[Lynn Margulies]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

Because Zamuda says, yeah, she died, you know.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah, she really did die.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Yeah. Like, out of all the things in the doc that they're gonna keep a mystery, it's that poor lady on that little riding horse.

[Lynn Margulies]

Well, you wanna stay true to Andy's a bit.

[Marc Maron]

Right?

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah. But then he let her come back up with, you know, he put on the Indian feathers and came out. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. And she came back to life.

[Marc Maron]

That's right. That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh. So I guess, did the woman really die? No, not on stage, no.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah, it was all a bit.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. So, okay, so now he's just doing the rescue and you're going. You're not going to Memphis with him?

[Lynn Margulies]

No, yeah, I always went.

[Marc Maron]

You did?

[Lynn Margulies]

Oh, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And what was the vibe? They just hated him.

[Lynn Margulies]

They Hated him. No. In fact, he would stay in his dressing room till everyone was gone, and I would have to go out and make sure Lawler had left. For one thing. I'd have to see Lawler get in his car and drive away before Andy would come out of his dressing room.

[Marc Maron]

Because he was afraid of him.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Did you get the sense that Lawler would really beat him up?

[Lynn Margulies]

No, no, no.

[Marc Maron]

He was a pro. Right.

[Lynn Margulies]

And he was just, you know, doing the. Doing his thing.

[Marc Maron]

Being dramatic.

[Lynn Margulies]

Being dramatic.

[Marc Maron]

So what's the arc of it? How long does that go on for?

[Lynn Margulies]

Goes on until Andy got cancer at the end of 83. You know, he kept going back. Going back. In fact, I. Yeah, there's some. There's some video when he's coughing, you know, and I'm like, oh, my God, you can see him coughing.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And does he see the doctor down there or.

[Lynn Margulies]

He comes to LA in December, he.

[Marc Maron]

Comes to 83 because the cough had gotten too much.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah. He went in for his cough to see why he was coughing all the time.

[Marc Maron]

So sad.

[Lynn Margulies]

I know. And then he got cancer, and then what he wanted to do was go on Letterman and say he got cancer for Christmas.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And that didn't happen.

[Lynn Margulies]

I don't know why that didn't happen. He even got a phone line put in his apartment and had his name on it in the phone book so people could call him.

[Marc Maron]

Really?

[Lynn Margulies]

Because he was going to go on Letterman and announce his phone number and say he got cancer for Christmas. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And then. And then see what the calls came in.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I wonder what that was. What do you make of that? You wanted some love?

[Lynn Margulies]

No, it was just fun.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, come on.

[Lynn Margulies]

I swear to God. It was just. I mean, he didn't think these through like everyone else does. He just thought it would be cool.

[Marc Maron]

I know, but we can read them now.

[Lynn Margulies]

I know.

[Marc Maron]

Some of them.

[Lynn Margulies]

I know.

[Marc Maron]

And that seems like.

[Lynn Margulies]

Seems like it, doesn't it, that he.

[Marc Maron]

Wanted some sort of.

[Lynn Margulies]

He just thought it would be funny to announce his phone number on David Letterman and then have it actually be a real phone that you could call it. Yeah, well, he had a machine hooked up to it. I don't know if he was ever actually going to answer it. Yeah. He got one call that someone actually found his number and called.

[Marc Maron]

Just out of curiosity.

[Lynn Margulies]

Just out of curiosity.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, but what do you like in the relationship? I know that in the document it says he has a couple of women saying that he was not. What's also interesting is some of the women that have known him his whole life's reaction to the wrestling. There was a line that he crossed.

[Lynn Margulies]

With a lot of people, including his family. They hated it.

[Marc Maron]

They did.

[Lynn Margulies]

Oh, yeah, they hated it. They wanted nice Andy. They wanted foreign men. They were not happy with all the wrestling and all the stuff he was doing.

[Marc Maron]

I like that. They found the real foreign man.

[Lynn Margulies]

Isn't that amazing?

[Marc Maron]

Is that from old footage?

[Lynn Margulies]

No, it's brand new.

[Marc Maron]

Because some of it is kind of old, obviously, but some of it's new. Like, Steve Martin was new.

[Lynn Margulies]

Martin's new. Danny DeVito.

[Marc Maron]

Yep.

[Lynn Margulies]

Me, of course, and his friends. But, you know, like, is Rob Williams.

[Marc Maron]

Rob Williams in it? Yeah.

[Lynn Margulies]

That's all from Comic Relief archives.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, it is, yeah. Well, you know, you do have this desire somehow to. To interpret and pathologize, right?

[Lynn Margulies]

People do. I don't. That's why Andy and I got along so well. Cause I didn't.

[Marc Maron]

It doesn't matter in the big picture, but in order to critically sort of assess his legacy, it's fun to.

[Lynn Margulies]

And he would love that. People are doing that.

[Marc Maron]

Sure.

[Lynn Margulies]

He would love it.

[Marc Maron]

I'm sure there have been books written or essays written or the implications of, you know, the wrestling period. You would hope. You would hope. But in terms of his personal relationships, there was a couple women saying that he just was not capable of any sort of intimacy.

[Lynn Margulies]

No, not really. Even with me, you know, he wasn't. He. He would do it. Like, I would go over and make him put his arm around me, and I'd lean on him. He'd go, oh, there they.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Lynn Margulies]

Aw, yeah. Like he was pretending.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Cause, like, you know, as somebody who has my own issues with intimacy, I just like trying to track why that. Where that comes from is kind of interesting.

[Lynn Margulies]

That is interesting.

[Marc Maron]

And I have to assume it's still that injury from the grandfather. How could he trust anybody that.

[Lynn Margulies]

And, yeah, and his dad, I think, you know, Bob and I have talked about this. His dad was. I think he probably had PTSD from World War II. And he yelled a lot.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, really?

[Lynn Margulies]

And I think that's what drove Andy into his room.

[Marc Maron]

And also I imagine what drove him to, you know, seek the love of the grandfather as much as possible. Cause to have that relationship with your grandfather is a big deal.

[Lynn Margulies]

Exactly.

[Marc Maron]

And if your dad's running around yelling all the time, so it's chaos.

[Lynn Margulies]

And I think.

[Marc Maron]

And it's frightening.

[Lynn Margulies]

And I think that's maybe why he liked wrestling, too, so much, is because the bad guys were an act. It wasn't real. Whereas in life it was real, but in wrestling, it wasn't real.

[Marc Maron]

You could disarm it and live in it.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. So the relationship wasn't particularly intimate in that way where he's able to trust or open his heart that much.

[Lynn Margulies]

I would think so, probably. Yeah. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So what happens after the diagnosis? How does the life change?

[Lynn Margulies]

Well, God, it happened so fast. You know, he was diagnosed in December and he died in May. And so it was just going to the doctors. They talked him into doing radiation, which he didn't want to do. And then some friend of his told him about the faith healers in the Philippines. And Andy just went, okay, that sounds good. And off we went to the Philippines for six weeks to see the faith healers there.

[Marc Maron]

Did you get a sense that he wanted it to? He believed it, yeah.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah, he believed. He was kind of magical thinking, you know, it's like he never thought cancer would kill him. He just said, oh, I've got cancer now I'll have to get rid of. It basically was his.

[Marc Maron]

So he couldn't really wrap his brain around. I guess you have to have some magical thinking at the beginning, at least. Yeah, I guess you go through those five stages alive really fast. Yeah.

[Lynn Margulies]

I don't know what the five stages are. But he never got angry.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. I think it's denial.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah, well, denial was definitely.

[Marc Maron]

I think it's denial, Depression or anger and then acceptance at some point.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah, he did accept it towards the end.

[Marc Maron]

He did, yeah.

[Lynn Margulies]

Although he never would say, I'm dying, but I think he knew he was.

[Marc Maron]

Dying, you know, and. Cause I saw that footage in the doc where he went to the improv with the mohawk and stuff, and it was interesting. Cause even, like, you know, Bud Friedman, who's a pretty tough guy, was pretty choked up.

[Lynn Margulies]

Oh, Bud loved him. And he threw a party after that, after that screening. And that was the last time I ever saw Andy was at that. Cause that was like the day or two before we went to the Philippines.

[Marc Maron]

Were the party at the Improv.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah, he threw a party for him at the Improv. Impromptu. Just said, everyone come to the Improv.

[Marc Maron]

He really loved him, huh?

[Lynn Margulies]

Oh, he loved Andy like a son. Yeah. Yeah. He's really broken up.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. I like that story because Bud was the first guy that saw him at the original improv.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yep, yep, yep.

[Marc Maron]

And knew something was totally unique about the guy.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah. I don't know how Bud figured out, because Andy wouldn't have told him, you know, what he was gonna no. At the very beginning, he wouldn't have told him that he was gonna do the whole Foreign man and Elvis and stuff and let him on stage.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. I think it must have just been like, you know, he believed it. And then when it turned into something else, he said, oh, this is something beyond anything that is out happening now.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And I don't think that Bub was like, this is gonna be a huge success or anything, but he knew the guy was touched somehow.

[Lynn Margulies]

Exactly.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Lynn Margulies]

And, like, that's what Taxi did for him is he got real big. You know, he was on shows before that, but he wasn't well known, you know. But then he got on Taxi and he was huge.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And he's doing. I love that. The guy who was the inspiration for Foreign Men, who was apparently. Because he was Bogie. Yeah. But because he was, you know, from another country and couldn't integrate socially. Of course, that's Andy's only friend.

[Lynn Margulies]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

In college, those two.

[Lynn Margulies]

Oh, yeah. Cause that's what Andy was like.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. So. But you know what was interesting is when the director, whoever was on the camera, and it's a very modern proposition when the director says, are you mad Cause he stole that from you? Because that's such a thing with people. Like, oh, he took my actor, he took me. Right. And the guy's like, no, no, it's my gift.

[Lynn Margulies]

Aw, isn't that sweet? It was my gift.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. It was beautiful. Because it goes against everything in capitalist culture that bitter people accuse people of.

[Lynn Margulies]

Right. Anyone else would have been suing Andy for stealing his Persona.

[Marc Maron]

Sure. And that guy was like, you know, he's my friend.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So he had a few friends.

[Lynn Margulies]

Not many.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Lynn Margulies]

Greg Sutton, from childhood. I mean, Andy was like, me. We're both the same. We're not comfortable with humans, really.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Yeah. Who were the guys that hung out towards the end? Bob just Imuda.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I mean, the management had had enough of him.

[Lynn Margulies]

No, George loved him.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Lynn Margulies]

George always loved Andy no matter what. But, I mean, Andy knew a lot of people, but he didn't hang out with people.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Lynn Margulies]

I mean, he had me. And I always say the reason. The only reason that he and I managed to get together, I think, is because Bob was off doing DC Cab. Then he wrote DC Cab and he was in it. And so Bob was gone, and Andy was, like, left without a friend. And then he met me, and I took Bob's place for a while because.

[Marc Maron]

You know, and over the arc of the. The sickness, which was quick. Did you. Did you sense, like, A change in the way he saw his life? No, not really.

[Lynn Margulies]

No, not at all.

[Marc Maron]

He just took it.

[Lynn Margulies]

He just accepted. I mean. Yeah, he just accepted it. I mean, things happen and that's how it goes, you know?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Lynn Margulies]

The only thing, he was very disappointed. He was very disappointed in what's his name from Saturday Night Live. Not Lorne Michaels, the other guy, the original guy.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, Eversole.

[Lynn Margulies]

Eversole. Because he felt that he betrayed him. When they kicked him off. They did the vote.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Lynn Margulies]

And Andy and Eversole figured he'd be kicked off as a joke. But then Andy was supposed to come back. You know, he was supposed to come back in disguise. Ha ha ha. I snuck back in. But Eversole didn't let him back on, so. So he was. He was really.

[Marc Maron]

So there was an agreement in the sense that they were still buddies, and then he didn't. He kept him off.

[Lynn Margulies]

It was all supposed to be an act. He'd get kicked off and then he'd sneak back on. And then Ebersol betrayed him, and he really felt betrayed. I mean, that was the one. He was hurt. And he was also hurt by the meditation movement because they wanted to kick him out because of the wrestling.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Lynn Margulies]

They wouldn't let him come on the courses. He used to love to go on the courses they have, and they wouldn't let him. They wouldn't let him. Really?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah. Cause I know they mentioned that, and it just. It didn't. You know, they didn't go too deep into it, but he was very active within the TM community.

[Lynn Margulies]

Not as much in later years, but he would go to the courses and then he signed up for one, and they wouldn't let him do it.

[Marc Maron]

Really?

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah. And he was really hurt by that because TM was his life.

[Marc Maron]

Twice a day.

[Lynn Margulies]

Twice a day. Oh, God.

[Marc Maron]

No matter what.

[Lynn Margulies]

No matter what. And he had a long. He had a long meditation and he'd fall asleep, and if he fell asleep, he'd start over. So he'd be like, meditating for, like, three, four hours.

[Marc Maron]

Really?

[Lynn Margulies]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

So he really got out there.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah. And no matter what, if we were in New York, Times Square, we'd go to a movie theater so he could meditate or he'd get a hotel room so he could meditate.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Lynn Margulies]

My never missed it.

[Marc Maron]

My late girlfriend was like that. She was locked into that, you know, and no matter what, if she were on set, she would. Was like, go do this.

[Lynn Margulies]

Oh, I didn't know she was a meditator, Lynn.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Yeah. It Was like, very important, you know, and she had this, her special chair, and if she was directing, you know, she'd go and do it. And I think it really worked for her.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Like, there was something like. You know, when I'm watching that, because I just got on medicine for anxiety after decades.

[Lynn Margulies]

I've been on it since 2006.

[Marc Maron]

What are you on?

[Lynn Margulies]

Paxil?

[Marc Maron]

Oh, this one's like a different one. Yeah, but when I'm watching that, like, there's always that part of your brain that wants to make excuses. I'm like, you know what, dude? Just lock in. Just go to the TM thing. Let's fucking resolve this thing.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But then minutes later, I'm like, I don't know if I'm gonna do that.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah, yeah. Well, when you have anxiety, it's. It's a. It's a medical condition. It's like, well, good.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. I'm working on accepting that.

[Lynn Margulies]

I don't think all the meditation in the world can get rid. It's like meditating to get rid of your heart disease, you know?

[Marc Maron]

I guess so. Okay, well, I like that framing. I'll take it. Cause I always tend to think, like, it's a reasonable reaction.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah, no, it's horrible.

[Marc Maron]

It is horrible.

[Lynn Margulies]

I hate anxiety.

[Marc Maron]

I live it.

[Lynn Margulies]

I did too, all my life.

[Marc Maron]

And it's gone, Completely gone.

[Lynn Margulies]

As long as I stay on my. And I've tapered off many times thinking, okay, I'm fine now.

[Marc Maron]

Right?

[Lynn Margulies]

Boom. Comes right back.

[Marc Maron]

Really?

[Lynn Margulies]

Yep. So I've just accepted it. You know, I take a pill. Yeah, I take a pill, and I'm not miserable anymore.

[Marc Maron]

So Andy didn't make you anxious?

[Lynn Margulies]

Not at all. I was having fun.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, so he was like.

[Lynn Margulies]

He was like medicine.

[Marc Maron]

He was like medicine. Yeah.

[Lynn Margulies]

But I couldn't. I couldn't. He wanted me to perform with him, but because of my anxiety disorder, I couldn't do anything in public at the time.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, really? What did he want you to do?

[Lynn Margulies]

Just. Well, first of all, he wanted me. I would say things. He'd go, you're funny. You should get up there.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lynn Margulies]

Oh, yeah. And I can't. I can't, you know.

[Marc Maron]

Did you stand up?

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah, he wanted me to just stand up. And it's like, no, I can't. Or he'd want me. Like, he originally wanted me to help him write his Chicago show. And even that, I was too, like, me, me. So he got Elaine Boosler to come in and do it, but I was just too anxiety ridden.

[Marc Maron]

So were you there? When he died?

[Lynn Margulies]

Yep, yep, yep.

[Marc Maron]

In the hospital.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yep. I was holding his foot because his family were upholding his hands. And so Linda Mitchell and I were at the base of the bed, each holding a. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Wow. And was it peaceful?

[Lynn Margulies]

It was. It was.

[Marc Maron]

Were there, you know, last requests?

[Lynn Margulies]

No, no, he was just tired at the end. He was just tired. You know, he was just sleeping most of the time.

[Marc Maron]

So the discussions about his legacy, those happened after he was diagnosed?

[Lynn Margulies]

Yes, yes.

[Marc Maron]

And what was it exactly?

[Lynn Margulies]

What did he say? The promises.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Lynn Margulies]

Well, one, like I said, we had started. I'm from Hollywood, and that's about his wrestling in Memphis.

[Marc Maron]

And he won that finish.

[Lynn Margulies]

I mean. Cause that was his. That was the height of his career as far as he was concerned. I mean, that was it, his wrestling.

[Marc Maron]

This is what he was working towards.

[Lynn Margulies]

Absolutely. So he made me promise to finish it. And, boy, was that hard.

[Marc Maron]

Why?

[Lynn Margulies]

Because I had to work on it right after he died.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Lynn Margulies]

Oh, my God, it was so hard. But I finished it. And the other thing, he made me promise in front of George Shapiro. He said, george, I want Lynn to get everything I ever did out into the world. You know, he said, promise to help her. And then George kind of conveniently forgot that later when I tried to do it.

[Marc Maron]

What would you try? How would you try to do it?

[Lynn Margulies]

Well, after I'm from Hollywood, I came to George and I said, okay, now I'm ready to do the rest of this stuff.

[Marc Maron]

Which, in your mind, what was that? How would you do it?

[Lynn Margulies]

Oh, just like, find everything he ever did and either put it out as a compilation, maybe do a movie of all of work, you know.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Lynn Margulies]

And George just kind of said, well, I helped you do. I'm from Hollywood. That's enough.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, really? Kind of like that was it. Well, thank God for YouTube now.

[Lynn Margulies]

Well, then what I did was I took every. I used to sell the stuff on DVDs that I just made that I just put together. Yeah. I sold them on ebay because Andy asked me to do it. And so I was putting the stuff out there.

[Marc Maron]

Like, what?

[Lynn Margulies]

I did two DVDs that I called the Kaufman archives, and I just put clips from all his different shows on them.

[Marc Maron]

And personal interview pieces.

[Lynn Margulies]

Nope, just shows.

[Marc Maron]

And did they sell?

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah, I mean, you know, 20 bucks a piece.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. You still got some?

[Lynn Margulies]

I found a couple. Yeah. They're so cute because I also. I typed up a thing about all of them and I signed it and I put that inside the DVD case, you know.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Lynn Margulies]

It's really sweet.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, yeah. Well, it's interesting that it's taken this long for someone to do a real assessment.

[Lynn Margulies]

I know.

[Marc Maron]

Because there hasn't been a documentary, has there, really?

[Lynn Margulies]

No, there have been, like Bob and I did a. A E biography on him.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Lynn Margulies]

And a couple people have just done little private things that they've put out. But no, this is the first one, the first documentary that actually delves into who he was and why he did it, rather than just present, like, his performances. Yeah, it actually delves into.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. I was amazed at the connections that the filmmaker made. It was pretty smart.

[Lynn Margulies]

It was.

[Marc Maron]

Smart guy.

[Lynn Margulies]

That's why he spent so much time with me.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. He needed to know what you knew because you were there at the height.

[Lynn Margulies]

Of his career and garb.

[Marc Maron]

But if you believe. And Andy believed that the wrestling was really the.

[Lynn Margulies]

The epitome. The height.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Lynn Margulies]

The apex of his career.

[Marc Maron]

So on some level, according to him, that was the most important time.

[Lynn Margulies]

Absolutely. You were there for him. Absolutely.

[Marc Maron]

So. But what about the estate? I mean, how does people just churn out this material? I mean, like, you know, because usually it's protected, right?

[Lynn Margulies]

Oh, well, yeah, now it is. His father wasn't as. Yeah. See, I went through all these years thinking, well, I promised Andy I would do this, and that's why I was putting stuff out. Putting stuff out. And then his dad died and his brother took over, and his brother has put the kibosh on everyone doing stuff.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, really?

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So the family did have the estate, but the father didn't give a shit.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

His father didn't see any point. So now.

[Lynn Margulies]

And back then, it wasn't. No one was really putting stuff out.

[Marc Maron]

You know, or maybe not necessarily protecting it or, you know, or didn't see why anyone would care necessarily.

[Lynn Margulies]

Exactly. That is kind of. Back when Andy had all of his stuff after Taxi ended, he moved out of his house in the Hollywood Hills.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Lynn Margulies]

And he put all his stuff in storage. And after he died, his dad just called Linda Mitchell, his assistant, and said, get rid of everything. So Linda called me and I said, send it to my mom's garage.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, really?

[Lynn Margulies]

I had her send it all to me. Yeah. Because his dad was just like, get rid of it.

[Marc Maron]

You know, that's crazy. Well, that's what people do after people die, you know, like one. Usually there's a sensitivity to it. Somebody goes through it and takes what they hold dear. But a lot of it is just sort of like. I don't know.

[Lynn Margulies]

Well, his dad still had all the stuff in Andy's childhood room at the house that was all still there.

[Marc Maron]

That's interesting, isn't it?

[Lynn Margulies]

I know. They just left his room. We used to go stay in it when we were there.

[Marc Maron]

Really?

[Lynn Margulies]

Little twin bed.

[Marc Maron]

Really?

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

They kept it just intact.

[Lynn Margulies]

Well, it was his room, and he would come back and stay there with.

[Marc Maron]

All the childhood stuff in it.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah. Just all his stuff. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

That's so wild. I thought that that was an interesting part of, like. I didn't love the movie, you know, the Cherry man on the movie. Yeah. Cause, you know, I like Milos work.

[Lynn Margulies]

I love Milos.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. He's great. And I think Jim Carrey did the best he could, but, you know, how are you gonna do that?

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah. He didn't know Andy.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And, you know, even if you study him, how are you gonna find that vulnerability that he had?

[Lynn Margulies]

I said that to the writers who I'm gonna see tomorrow. We've stayed friends, that there's nothing cinematic about Andy's life apart from his work.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Lynn Margulies]

Like I said, I don't know what you're gonna write about because he was not cinematic.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. He went out of his way not to be cinematic.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

He kind of became a vacuum.

[Lynn Margulies]

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I would call him. I always called him a vessel. You know, things went in him and came out of him.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Because, like, there are times, I think, when you see him where he turns it all off and there's. It's a type of vulnerability, but it's almost like a.

[Lynn Margulies]

An act.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, it's an act. But I think he got. I think that there was a real thrill for him in those moments. And I'm speculating that, like, when he was on stage not getting laughs on purpose, it's different than him actually being himself, you know, like with Letterman, for a minute. And, like, I think.

[Lynn Margulies]

Cause it's still part of the act.

[Marc Maron]

It's part of the act, but I think the experience of whoever's watching him or talking to him having anticipation and him having moments of, like, I'm actually being me and this is what they're waiting for.

[Lynn Margulies]

And see, that's the beauty of it. You never know, even if he's being me, if it's real. Like, people will ask me, is he dead? Is he alive? And it doesn't matter what I say, because you never know what's real. Still, even now.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. There's a few people that still want to hold on.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

The one thing in the movie that I thought was kind of smart and well shot was there's a moment in the Movie?

[Lynn Margulies]

Which movie?

[Marc Maron]

The man on the Moon.

[Lynn Margulies]

Man on the Moon where.

[Marc Maron]

The way Milos shot the Philippines stuff, where you sense watching the film, that Andy knew this was a performance.

[Lynn Margulies]

He didn't.

[Marc Maron]

But it's in the movie.

[Lynn Margulies]

It's in the movie. There's a lot in the movie that's not correct.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. So he didn't.

[Lynn Margulies]

No, he never. He never. He thought he was healed. I mean, he thought, you know, June LeBeau said, okay, you're healed now, and Landy said, okay. I mean, Andy, he was really savvy and smart, but he had this very naive side, too. His childlike naivety.

[Marc Maron]

And the magical thinking.

[Lynn Margulies]

And the magical thinking. So he just believed it was all working.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, that's interesting.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Cause I mean, he. I think Forman went out of his way to suggest that.

[Lynn Margulies]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

And even if it wasn't that Andy knew, you know, the audience, Bob and I knew. Right. But it was like. It was something Andy would have done.

[Lynn Margulies]

Exactly. Exactly. In fact, I almost think he never said it, but going to the Philippines, I was thinking. I always thought that he thought, well, this is the weirdest, weirdest thing I can do. Get cancer and go to the Philippines.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Lynn Margulies]

You know?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. But the performative element of. It's not unlike wrestling, any sort of crackpot thing.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Wrestling's just the most honest.

[Lynn Margulies]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

And that must have been why that was his major work, is that you're not gonna get more honest than wrestling's gonna.

[Lynn Margulies]

You don't get. Yeah. Even. Exactly. Which is funny, isn't it? It's a funny dichotomy. Like, you're totally honest in wrestling.

[Marc Maron]

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Cause everyone knows the game.

[Lynn Margulies]

They do now.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Well, I mean, I think that within that world, you know, the characters, you know, they're. You know, it's a hard thing to really explain, but it is the most honest entertainment. Because it's like, that's the bad guy.

[Lynn Margulies]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

That's the good guy.

[Lynn Margulies]

But the bad guy might become a good guy.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Lynn Margulies]

But, you know, back in the 60s, it was very different. People believed it. I mean, 60s wrestling was very different.

[Marc Maron]

But even now, like, people don't care.

[Lynn Margulies]

They don't care if it's fake.

[Marc Maron]

They're there for the show.

[Lynn Margulies]

It's great entertainment.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. It's the spectacle of it.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So when you think about Andy, what do you miss the most?

[Lynn Margulies]

What do I miss the most about Andy? You know, really just hanging out and having fun.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Lynn Margulies]

Cause I'm still that way.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Lynn Margulies]

I still just want to hang out and have fun. Go to Disneyland. I mean, I love just.

[Marc Maron]

Did he go to Disneyland?

[Lynn Margulies]

We never went to Disneyland together. But he loved going to amusement parks.

[Marc Maron]

He did.

[Lynn Margulies]

Oh, God. There was an amusement park we went.

[Marc Maron]

Which part of it?

[Lynn Margulies]

He would love to like get on a ride and then as the ride was coming to a halt, he'd be crying. Like that was so scary, you know.

[Marc Maron]

In front of everybody.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah, yeah. He loved being a kid. He loved being a little kid. He just wanted to be a little kid.

[Marc Maron]

And he loved fucking with people.

[Lynn Margulies]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

[Marc Maron]

Well, I love the movie and it was great to talk to you.

[Lynn Margulies]

Oh, I'm so glad you loved it. I love it too.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, good.

[Lynn Margulies]

I'm glad to talk to you too.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, I'm glad you're happy with the film.

[Lynn Margulies]

Me too.

[Marc Maron]

There you go. Thank you very much. Is now in theaters and available on digital platforms. Go to thankyouverymuch.drafthouse films.com for more info. Hang out for a minute. One thing that's not going to surprise you if you're a regular listener. We love la. Why wouldn't we? It's been the home of the show for 16 years and I've lived here for longer than that. And when you come to visit Los Angeles, no matter how long you're here, you'll be able to take in a lot of stuff I love about this place. Like there's the food. There are seemingly endless options from all sorts of cuisines and dining styles. Yeah, you got B Wally, vegan, AF out here in Eagle Rock. You got Crossroads for the high end, vegan food, a lot of stuff shopping here you go to Gimme Gimme Records if you want some records or Amoeba Records or Permanent records. And of course, there's no substitute for LA when it comes to the best entertainment. Get over to Hollywood Boulevard and see a star ceremony on the Walk of Fame. Or come see me and dozens of other comedians at the Comedy Store, which has world class comedy every night. LA. It's like 10 cities in one. If you come visit, I guarantee you'll love LA as much as I do. Find more ways to love [e-mail] hey, folks. For more about Andy Kaufman, we put together a WTF collection for full Marin listeners that's full of Andy stories from the people who knew him, Bob Zamuda, Mary Lou Henner, Carol Kane, Bud Friedman, Danny DeVito and more.

[Bob Zamuda]

Andy would be like sitting in his dressing room eating sushi during the day.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bob Zamuda]

And you could go in and talk to him and hang out with him without having to worry about becoming part of his art project, which most of the time you were. You know, like, there were a couple times that I was. When we first met, and I'd be in the hallway hanging out, and he's. He's there, and he'd come out of his dressing room, and all of a sudden, some woman would come in with a package. Like delivering.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bob Zamuda]

UPS person or postal worker.

[Marc Maron]

Right. Yeah.

[Bob Zamuda]

And he would start on her and he'd go, what are you doing taking a job away from a man? You know, you should be in the kitchen. You should be doing. And then she'd get pissed off at him, and then we would all come out. I'd be out in the. Dressing in the hallway. What's going on out here? And they would be rolling up their sleeves and wrestling, and they would get on the ground and they would wrestle. Now, here's the thing about that.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bob Zamuda]

I didn't think about it until many years later. I bought it and everybody else bought it, But I suspect that that woman was on the payroll. Okay. Yeah. That's how fucking crazy Andy was.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bob Zamuda]

Of course, she came in dressed in a uniform.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bob Zamuda]

To put on a show.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Bob Zamuda]

Okay, well, maybe I'm a little slow. He did the thing really well, and we all bought it. Like, what are you doing?

[Marc Maron]

A little slow. Took years.

[Bob Zamuda]

Took years.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bob Zamuda]

A little slow.

[Marc Maron]

That's the latest bonus episode available to full Marin subscribers. To sign up for the full Marin and get bonus episodes twice a week, go to the link in the episode description or go to wtfpod.com and click on WTF. And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by Acast Boomer Lives Monkey and lafonda Cat. Angels everywhere screwed up at the end.