Episode 1633 - Gavin Matts - WTF with Marc Maron Podcast

Summary5 min read

WTF with Marc Maron: Episode 1633 - Gavin Matz

In Episode 1633 of the WTF with Marc Maron Podcast, hosted by Marc Maron, comedian and writer Gavin Matz engages in a profound and candid conversation that traverses personal struggles, the evolving landscape of the comedy industry, and the broader implications of societal changes. Released on April 10, 2025, this episode offers listeners an insightful exploration of Gavin's journey and perspectives amidst a rapidly shifting cultural and political environment.

1. Introduction

Marc Maron welcomes Gavin Matz, a Canadian writer and comedian known for his role in Season Four of Hacks on Max and his comedy special "Progression" available on YouTube. Marc highlights Gavin's entry into the podcast through Ally Makofsky, the woman who opens for him on the road, setting the stage for an engaging dialogue.

2. Reflections on Authoritarianism and Empathy

The discussion opens with Marc delving into themes of authoritarianism and the erosion of empathy in contemporary society. He muses on the capacity for significant achievements achieved without empathy, contrasting it with the necessity of fostering empathy in a self-absorbed, algorithm-driven world.

Marc Maron (01:15:30): “...the things you can accomplish with absolutely no sense of empathy.”

Gavin shares personal insights, drawing parallels between societal trends and his observations of his father’s struggle with dementia. He reflects on the deep-seated rage and emptiness that surface as cognitive functions decline, emphasizing the profound impact of these personal experiences on his worldview.

Gavin Matz (00:10:45): “What doesn't go away... is a very deep kind of rage at the edge of the void.”

3. The Changing Landscape of Show Business and Comedy

Marc and Gavin explore the transformation of the comedy and show business industries. They discuss the shift from intimate club performances to corporate arenas, highlighting how mainstream platforms prioritize stockholder interests over genuine artistic expression.

Marc Maron (00:35:22): “...mainstream or old school show business is just sort of over... we've built our own show business.”

Gavin critiques the commercialization of comedy, noting how rising stars now rely on vast followings rather than honing their craft in smaller venues. This commercialization, he argues, dilutes the authenticity and community-centric essence of stand-up comedy.

4. Gavin Matz’s Personal Journey in Comedy

Gavin recounts his path from Vancouver's local comedy scene to winning Canada's Top Comic in 2017, which secured him a visa and facilitated his move to the United States. He shares anecdotes from his stand-up career, including challenges faced during performances and the evolution of his comedic style.

Gavin Matz (01:02:15): “I was like, I have to keep going and going and going.”

Marc reminisces about his own early days in comedy, discussing the importance of overcoming stage anxieties and the value of authentic connection with the audience.

5. The Role of Comedians in Societal Change

The conversation shifts to the responsibility of comedians in times of political turmoil. Marc emphasizes the importance of using comedy as a platform for resistance and maintaining a sense of community and representation.

Marc Maron (01:20:44): “You have to show up in your life in the way that you feel is right.”

Gavin echoes this sentiment, advocating for comedy that supports and uplifts communities rather than perpetuating negativity and exclusion. They discuss the significance of representation and the power of comedic voices in fostering societal progress.

6. Impact of Social Media and Misinformation

Marc and Gavin delve into the pervasive influence of social media platforms like TikTok in shaping public perception and mobilizing young audiences. They express concerns over misinformation and the creation of echo chambers that reinforce existing beliefs, making it challenging to discern truth from propaganda.

Gavin Matz (01:43:10): “I felt like TikTok was really pushing people... mobilizing... in a way that I’d never seen before.”

The discussion highlights the pressing need for critical thinking and the role of comedians in addressing and mitigating misinformation through their unique platforms.

7. Personal Struggles and Resilience in Comedy

Gavin opens up about personal hardships, including family dynamics and the emotional toll of his career. He shares his commitment to stand-up despite setbacks, underscoring the resilience required to sustain a career in comedy amidst personal and societal challenges.

Gavin Matz (01:55:27): “I'm just another guy... It's not like some new sound.”

Marc reflects on his own vulnerabilities and the therapeutic aspects of comedy, illustrating how shared experiences and honesty can bridge gaps between performers and their audiences.

8. Conclusion and Final Thoughts

As the episode concludes, Marc and Gavin reaffirm the pivotal role of comedy in navigating and resisting oppressive societal structures. They advocate for continued authenticity, community support, and the preservation of spaces where diverse voices can thrive.

Marc Maron (02:08:46): “You can't buckle to this wave of, you know, pseudo macho fascist garbage.”

Gavin emphasizes the necessity of maintaining comedic integrity and supporting like-minded individuals who prioritize empathy and community over commercial success.

Key Takeaways

Empathy's Decline: The episode underscores the diminishing role of empathy in both personal relationships and broader societal interactions.
Industry Transformation: A critical look at how commercialization has altered the landscape of comedy, prioritizing profit over authentic artistic expression.
Comedians as Resisters: Highlighting the responsibility of comedians to use their platforms for societal resistance and community building.
Social Media's Role: Concerns over the impact of social media in fostering misinformation and dividing communities.
Personal Resilience: The importance of resilience and authenticity in sustaining a career amidst personal and industry challenges.

Notable Quotes

Gavin Matz (00:10:45): “What doesn't go away... is a very deep kind of rage at the edge of the void.”
Marc Maron (00:35:22): “...mainstream or old school show business is just sort of over... we've built our own show business.”
Gavin Matz (01:43:10): “I felt like TikTok was really pushing people... mobilizing... in a way that I’d never seen before.”
Marc Maron (02:08:46): “You can't buckle to this wave of, you know, pseudo macho fascist garbage.”

Final Thoughts

This episode of WTF with Marc Maron offers a deep dive into the intricate dynamics of modern comedy, personal resilience, and the pressing need for empathy in an increasingly polarized world. Gavin Matz's insights, coupled with Marc Maron's reflective interviewing style, provide listeners with a nuanced understanding of the challenges and responsibilities faced by contemporary comedians.

For those interested in Gavin Matz's work, he stars in Season Four of Hacks on Max and his comedy special "Progression" is available on YouTube.

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Transcript851 lines

[00:00]
Gavin Matz
Lock the gate.
[00:09]
Marc Maron
All right, let's do this. How are you? What the fuckers. What the Buddies. What the Nicks? What's happening? I'm Mark Marin. This is my podcast. Wtf. Welcome to it. I imagine you chose it. You didn't just walk in. Wonder what's going on here. What's happening here? Who's this guy? Who's he talking to? I don't think I've ever heard of that guy. That's the interesting thing about when people see me post the guests on a social media platform. You know, people are like, who? Like, that's my fucking problem. Look it up. Fuck who? Today we got a. We got a Canadian fella, Canadian fella on the show, Gavin Matz. He's a. He's a writer and a comedian. He's also in the cast of season four of Hacks, which premieres today on Max. He's got a special out called Progression, available on YouTube. And he was brought to my attention by the woman who opens for me on the road, Ally Makofsky. So I figured, okay, well, if these youngsters are, you know, telling me what's up, let's have a conversation with this Canadian fella who enjoys it here in America. I wonder if that's changed since I've talked to him. But, but that aside, what's going on with you? How are you holding up? How. How are you adapting to authoritarianism? It's all happening so quickly, isn't it? I don't mean to trivialize anything, but sometimes you gotta take a glib tone just to find yourself a bit of relief in a moment. Am I right? But it is kind of fascinating in terms of the way global politics and American culture is going. It's an amazing thing, the achievements one can accomplish with a complete lack of empathy. I don't know, that's. If that's part of any motivational speakers system other than, you know, straight up fascists. But yeah, the things you can accomplish with absolutely no sense of empathy. And for most people, empathy has to be honed, it has to be engaged, it has to be worked on. Especially in a world where we're self consumed, self absorbed, self centered and entertaining ourselves endlessly with algorithms that have been chosen for ourself and our desire system. Where is there room for empathy? Where is there room for considering the struggles of others when you're completely engaged in your own emotional spectrum being triggered by garbage that you let into your face? Huh? And I'm not speaking down, I'm speaking over. I. I'm not different than any of you. I am speaking to myself. I mean, look, I've got a dad who, who. Who has dementia. And before he had dementia, my dad was always a fairly. I would say, you know, look, I'm no psychiatrist, but I would say he was pretty close to pathological narcissism and the full spectrum of emotions that comes with that and defends what's at the core of that, which is a profound, I think, infantile emptiness and probably rage. Again, not a psychiatrist. But as he gets more demented as the. That illness progresses, what doesn't go away, what's interesting is that, I don't know, look again, I'm not a clinician and I'm not a caregiver, but it seems that what's left, once all the systems start to break down and their ability to socialize and think or remember their breakfast goes away, you know, I think what's left over that still comes to the forefront is something that's probably the deepest, beyond memories. It's a character trait of some kind. And with my dad, the one thing that seems to be holding on is a very deep fuck you. There's a lot. A very deep kind of rage at the edge of the void. The void of death, the void of the injury, the trauma. Fuck you. And my dad was always one of those guys. He knew his particular craft, which was surgery, he knew his skill set, he knew the world of medicine, but everything else he didn't. And I think in some ways that was always, you know, kind of an insecurity of his. But I think the fact that I kind of sought to be a thinker and try to engage with stuff that, you know, he needed to sort of, you know, kind of meet me there somehow or compete with me somehow. And the way that kind of manifested was just, you know, provoking me, trying to get a rise out of me, you know, instigating arguments without a counter argument, just acting out of kind of ego and insecurity and figuring out a way to push buttons. And that gave him a great deal of satisfaction. Now, I think that, look, you know, he did have a full range of emotional behavior, but usually it was a vacuum of need or a aggressive expression of pushing you away, pushing me away, whoever. But, you know, his disposition got him into a lot of trouble over his life. And what's interesting about what just happened over the last few days around this tariff chaos is that this is a guy, not unlike my father, who his sort of strength is not real strength. It's based on a profound Weakness of sense of self, of ego. And also at the core of it is just a void. And at the edge of that void is, you know, whatever's left of that guy just saying, go fuck yourself and getting whatever he wants and then just watching it go into the void and then just getting more, trying to fill it. So what you see in the actions, and this is again, not a clinician, not a psychologist, is, you know, just an angry, dumb old man who is, you know, obviously politically adept in terms of manipulating people and frightening people. But I think at the core you have a guy whose mind is slipping, who has literally all the power in the world, who at any given moment, if he's not getting all of the attention, you know, feels like he's disappearing. So every day he has to figure out how to get a rise out of the world. How do I get a rise out of the world? And not unlike my father, when all of a sudden people that he wants desperately to like him, I think for the most part he truly doesn't give a fuck about, about people that, that don't like him and he'll just beat on them. But the people that he wants acceptance from or wants to appear smart to, if they turn on him or if his reflection in the, the movement that he started starts to get ugly, then, you know, he, he just retreats, you know, hey, come on, I was just, you know, around, you know, I was just, you know, ah, see, look, I got a rise out of you. But the problem is that he is the most powerful man in the world. Kinda, I think on some level, despite what he thinks, he's still sort of a puppet of people who have actually intelligently and dubiously and probably demonically achieved massive wealth. And that's really the club. He has always created an illusion that he belongs to. But in terms of intelligence, he's really just a angry yet, you know, armchair bigot. You know, the armchair might be gilded in gold and the floors might be marble, but he's still just a guy yelling at the tv. But now he's got all the power in the world and he just wants to get a rise out of the world. A guy who is thrilled at terrifying and through negligence, probably killing his detractors because of his power. It's, it's a horrendous charade and it's a fucking threat to the, to existence itself for everyone. Yeah, how are you? Nice to see you. Sorry. I talk a lot about anxiety on this show and anxiety can take many different forms. A lot of people have Heard of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder or ocd. But many of you might not associate it with anxiety. It's just that thing where you need to be extra clean and extra organized, right? The truth is it's a very serious condition that can paralyze people with fear and anxiety. A lot of people don't know that they have it, feel shame about their symptoms and suffer in silence. And not every therapist understands OCD or is qualified to treat it effectively, which can make it difficult to find the right help. But OCD is highly treatable with a specialized type of therapy called erp, or Exposure and Response Prevention. With no cd, you can do live virtual ERP therapy with licensed therapists who specialize in ocd. These are highly trained therapists who accept insurance and make treating your OCD more affordable. In fact, no CD therapy is covered by insurance for over 155 million Americans. If you relate to any of this, or if you want to help a loved one who's struggling, you can learn more by booking a free 15 minute call with no CD. Just go to nocd.com to schedule your free call and get connected with someone who can help. That's nocd.com Hey, I forgot to do this. Tomorrow I'm in Grand Rapids, Michigan, GLC live at 20 Monroe. Saturday I'm in Traverse City, Michigan at the City Opera House In Los Angeles, I'm at Dynasty typewriter. Monday, April 14, Saturday, April 26 and Tuesday, April 29. Those are all at 7:30. Then Largo in LA for an 8pm show on Tuesday, April 22. In May, I'm coming to Toronto, Vermont, New Hampshire and then Brooklyn for my HBO special taping at the Bam Harvey Theater on May 10th. Go to wtfpod.com tour for all my dates and links to tickets. Yes, getting a rise out of the world by creating chaos. Certain types of people just like pushing buttons till someone spins out. And then they just watch the show, push those buttons until things just get chaotic and untethered beyond anything you could ever expect. And just watch the show, watch it unfold. So outside of that, I guess things are not great here at the house with Charlie. He's kind of half a zombie. I'll deal with that when I get back from my dates. I don't think I'm gonna keep him on the Prozac. As for me, I went to begin the process of getting a crown in my mouth. I've become very fascinated with dentistry. It's almost like being a jeweler. You know, the tools they Work with, you know, some power tools, but some very fine, you know, fine picks and files. But, you know, I'm fascinated with root canals. I'm fascinated with the process of putting a crown on. And, you know, as you get older, you know, I have gum recession, and I'm always worried about my gums, but it turns out my gums are very healthy because I'm obsessive about them, take good care of them. The recession, it turns out, is because I have a cross bite. My bite is fucked up. Has been my whole life. But with teeth, it's interesting when you look at X rays, and now I'm gonna have, like, one of each type of fake tooth. I've got one implant. I've got one root canal, and now I'm gonna have a crown. I think I might have two crowns now. And it's funny, as you get older, you know, I was talking to the dentist about my bite, and the dental assistant was like, you know, they can still fix that. And I'm like, yeah, if my jaw. There was a reason I didn't want to do that in high school, that I didn't want to be the kid who has to eat through a straw with his mouth wired shut. I was too vain. For six months. Braces didn't work, but they're like, you can always fix it. I'm like, you know what? I can't. I've. I've. I've lived this long. If we can just make the teeth last until the end or put ones in there that will. I'm good. But the idea was, like. It's just fascinating to me because, like, this one tooth that I had to get a crown for had a filling in it from when I was a kid. And there was a crack along it because of my bite, which only lands on this tooth, and the one on the other side can only choke. I can only chew with, like, four teeth, three or four teeth. And the pressure on it was, you know, a lot for a lifetime. And there was a crack in it. So there was the outside chance that, you know, when they started, when they pulled that filling out to create the. Basically the post for the crown out of the tooth I have, it might have been cracked all the way through, and they would have pull it all out. I would have needed another implant. So you're right on the edge of it, man. How's it going to go? And then the jewelry work starts happening. You have four or five Novocaine shots. Your old fucking face is numb, and they're just going at it. The smell of burning tooth from the drills. A lot of this sounds terrifying, but I'm like, you know what's going to happen? Look at this jeweler at work and they gotta craft me this little gem of a new tooth. So they drilled out that fucking filling, it turns out, didn't go all the way through. Then they fill it up with some hardening goop to create the little post for the new piece of jewelry that is going to be in the back of my mouth. I don't know. I guess if you enter a dental situation with fascination, also just a root canal, it's like, what the fuck? Who figured that out? You want to create a post out of what's left of your tooth, but we got to file out those nerves and make them inert. It's like, on some level, dentistry can be a racket, but on that tooth by tooth basis, it's just kind of fascinating. It's very kind of delicate and nuanced, you know, work that has to be done, you know, in a very kind of small space. I think it's kind of fascinating. And I'm also, you know, now I've got a temporary crown on. I just got to hope I don't fucking swallow it. Chew on the other side of your mouth. Yeah, I'll try to remember that. Guys, if you're starting to notice your hair thinning when you look in the mirror, you're not alone. Life just gets busier and busier and it can feel like there's nothing you can do about it while you have all these other responsibilities. So try HIMS Hair Loss Solutions. You can avoid jumping through a bunch of frustrating hoops and get access to hair loss treatment without even leaving your home. The process is simple and 100% online. Just answer a few questions and a medical provider will determine if treatment is right for you. And then if you get a prescription, HIM sends it right to your door. You'll join hundreds of thousands of HIM subscribers who are able to get their confidence back with visibly thicker and fuller hair. Start your free online Visit today@hisss.com WTF that's H I M S for your personalized hair loss treatment options. Hiss.com WTF results vary based on studies of topical and oral minoxidil and finasteride. Prescription products require an online consultation with a health care provider who will determine if a prescription is appropriate. Restrictions apply. See website for full details and important safety information. Okay, so Gavin Matz is here. He is in season four of Hacks, which is now Streaming on Max. He's Canadian. This is me talking to Gavin Matz. I think it's only. We're days away from a sort of undeniable constitutional crisis.
[18:21]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[18:22]
Marc Maron
And if that happens, then at least we'll all know.
[18:25]
Gavin Matz
I know it sucks because, like. Like, I've been kind of mourning having dreams, you know?
[18:31]
Marc Maron
Interesting morning. Having dreams.
[18:35]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[18:35]
Marc Maron
Do you think.
[18:36]
Gavin Matz
Well, it just seems also silly to be, like, what I would love to be in TV and movies.
[18:42]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[18:44]
Marc Maron
It is kind of weird, right? Because you start to, like, I. I wonder about that. I mean, like, I'm on the other side of it. Like, I could leave. I could be done. Theoretically.
[18:55]
Gavin Matz
Sure. I'm not. I'm kind of just only starting. I know that's what the morning is. Yeah.
[19:00]
Marc Maron
Yeah, I know that. I know that feeling. The morning of possibilities.
[19:03]
Gavin Matz
Yeah, exactly. I'm like. I just started to think things were possible, and now.
[19:08]
Marc Maron
And now you just gone.
[19:09]
Gavin Matz
I've kind of been at the tail end of everything, though.
[19:11]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[19:12]
Gavin Matz
Like, I'm like the last generation of, like, weed being cool. You know what I mean?
[19:19]
Marc Maron
Weed not cool.
[19:21]
Gavin Matz
No. You know what I mean? Like, everything has kind of become corporate as I've gotten older.
[19:26]
Marc Maron
Corporate weed.
[19:27]
Gavin Matz
Corporate weed, you know?
[19:28]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[19:28]
Gavin Matz
It's just an example. I was thinking, because Mac Miller came on while I was driving, and I was like, oh, I remember when that came out.
[19:35]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[19:35]
Gavin Matz
And it was like, that's when, like, you'd still be like, yeah. Smoking weed. Like, buying it from a guy who.
[19:41]
Marc Maron
Like, there was a whole lifestyle to it.
[19:45]
Gavin Matz
Yeah, exactly.
[19:46]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[19:46]
Marc Maron
Like.
[19:46]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[19:46]
Marc Maron
You'd have to go wait for the guy to stop talking.
[19:50]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[19:50]
Marc Maron
Go get the weed. Then you have to smoke with him.
[19:53]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[19:54]
Marc Maron
Hear the new record or whatever. Cd.
[19:56]
Gavin Matz
Totally.
[19:57]
Marc Maron
Maybe listen to him sing a little rap a bit.
[19:59]
Gavin Matz
Yeah. Mixtapes. I'm in a mixtape era in a garage.
[20:04]
Marc Maron
Well, how old are you?
[20:05]
Gavin Matz
I'm 30.
[20:06]
Marc Maron
Wow. I didn't know who you were. You got to thank Makofsky for this.
[20:10]
Gavin Matz
Yeah. 100%. I mean, Ali texted me, and I was like, yeah, I would definitely. I would go on. I was like, I guess he had cancellations. He's probably supposed to talk to somebody who's on an Oscar run or something.
[20:24]
Marc Maron
Yeah. And the fires me up.
[20:26]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[20:26]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[20:26]
Marc Maron
And a lot of people bailed. I'm like, I better load it up.
[20:29]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[20:30]
Marc Maron
No, but I. I mean, I. I do like this. You know, When I started the podcast, it was, like, mostly comics, and, like, there is a whole generation of comics. I don't know I didn't know who you were. And then I watched your special and that's. She, she talked you up and I thought, well, this guy seems intelligent.
[20:46]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[20:47]
Marc Maron
So let's talk about this morning. Yeah, that's because I don't know. I don't know how to contextualize it either. Like what happens to show business in, in light of this? And I. There's part of me that thinks, well, Netflix will do whatever it needs to do to accommodate whoever needs to accommodate to make their stockholders happy. So that'll be just a. Another oligarchy of some kind.
[21:08]
Gavin Matz
I mean, these are all businesses now too. There's. It's just like the thing of being like, punk is dead.
[21:13]
Marc Maron
Well, yeah, punk is dead. But now the Republicans have somehow co opted punk. As you know, now it's just cool to say the N word a lot.
[21:21]
Gavin Matz
Of course.
[21:22]
Marc Maron
And wear a hat and you know.
[21:23]
Gavin Matz
And be, oh, damn, I'm in a hat. But not that kind of hat. Okay.
[21:27]
Marc Maron
It's hard to tell with the hats. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's hard. You know, when you see the hat and beard guys, you don't always know what team they're on.
[21:32]
Gavin Matz
Yeah, I feel like, dad, hat is fine. Like if you got your hat low to your head.
[21:37]
Marc Maron
Sure, okay. Yeah, sure. That's good.
[21:38]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[21:39]
Marc Maron
But a lot of times I see dudes, you know, wearing the flannels with the beards. I'm like, he's, you know, fuck that guy.
[21:43]
Gavin Matz
Oh, no.
[21:44]
Marc Maron
And then they're just sort of like, ha. And I'm like, wow. Yeah, I know. Anticipation of that coming out.
[21:49]
Gavin Matz
Yeah, you can be beta in a flannel. That's fine.
[21:52]
Marc Maron
Well, it's like I did a bit about the. Being an alpha pussy.
[21:56]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[21:56]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[21:57]
Marc Maron
I don't like beta. Yeah, it's called Alpha pussy.
[22:00]
Gavin Matz
Alpha pussy. Using words, weaponizing words in the right way to manipulate people.
[22:05]
Marc Maron
Well, what do you think about it? Like, what is your, what is your thoughts in terms of. Why do you feel like you're not going to be able to go forward? Or is it that you're going to be up against something?
[22:17]
Gavin Matz
I mean, I just think, you know, talking about things becoming corporate, I feel like, you know, comedy, which I'm as, is primarily just a stand up and.
[22:26]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[22:27]
Gavin Matz
And that's kind of corporate. I mean, even this podcasting, whatever is like, you got to have a podcast. But it's just. But this isn't. I'm not.
[22:36]
Marc Maron
This is.
[22:37]
Gavin Matz
Well, no, no, no, we're not filming this.
[22:39]
Marc Maron
No, we're this is analog, baby. We're old school. We're on the way out.
[22:42]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[22:43]
Marc Maron
I do it the way.
[22:44]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[22:44]
Marc Maron
Before people could afford small TV cameras in their. In their garages.
[22:49]
Gavin Matz
I know. You got to have a 8K camera set up. Well, that's.
[22:52]
Marc Maron
The whole thing is like, there's no. It seems to me that that mainstream or old school show business is just sort of over and they have no way of really, you know, knowing how to get audiences other than glomming on to people with a lot of followers. And then those people are like, we don't fucking need you at all. We've built our own show business.
[23:08]
Gavin Matz
Yeah. I feel like it's also just like, you know, more rich kids more than ever.
[23:12]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[23:13]
Gavin Matz
Like coming into the comedy space.
[23:16]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[23:16]
Gavin Matz
Supposed to be an escape for people.
[23:18]
Marc Maron
With nothing and just ugly people and people with nothing.
[23:22]
Gavin Matz
Yeah. And then that's kind of where like the crowd work and easy kind of jokes come in, I found, because it's like these people with camera setups that.
[23:29]
Marc Maron
Well, all they're going for is a crowd work, but, you know. Well, where'd you come up? Where were you from?
[23:34]
Gavin Matz
I came up in Vancouver. That's where I started. I actually. Who? Sophie Buttle, who was on the show last week. We lived together for like two years.
[23:41]
Marc Maron
As a couple?
[23:42]
Gavin Matz
No, just friends in a one bedroom apartment. And I had the bedroom and she had the living room.
[23:47]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[23:47]
Gavin Matz
And. And just doing stand up.
[23:49]
Marc Maron
Back when there was a club there.
[23:51]
Gavin Matz
Yeah. There was the comedy mix and the yuck yucks. And I was working like excavation in the mornings.
[23:57]
Marc Maron
Excavation?
[23:58]
Gavin Matz
Yeah, Helping build a Walmart.
[24:01]
Marc Maron
Oh, okay.
[24:01]
Gavin Matz
Just flattening the ground.
[24:03]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[24:03]
Gavin Matz
Real ditch digging work.
[24:06]
Marc Maron
How was that for you?
[24:07]
Gavin Matz
I mean, I mean, I mean, terrible. I worked for my cousin who, you know.
[24:12]
Marc Maron
So you're a Vancouver guy. Yeah, like born and raised.
[24:15]
Gavin Matz
Born and raised, yeah.
[24:17]
Marc Maron
Because I spent three months up there and you know, I'll have this conversation over and over again because I'm waiting for my PR to come through now.
[24:24]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[24:25]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[24:26]
Marc Maron
And you know, now it's kind of urgent. I'm bothering.
[24:29]
Gavin Matz
I'm waiting for my PR to come through here. I can't leave the country right now.
[24:33]
Marc Maron
You can't leave here?
[24:34]
Gavin Matz
Yeah. Because I'm waiting on my green card for.
[24:38]
Marc Maron
Oh, you mean if you leave, you won't be able to come back?
[24:41]
Gavin Matz
Yeah. My. No. If I. If I leave, my. I forfeit my petition.
[24:47]
Marc Maron
If you leave America.
[24:48]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[24:48]
Marc Maron
So you're waiting for your green card from America.
[24:51]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[24:51]
Marc Maron
And if you go back To Canada, Even for a vacation.
[24:54]
Gavin Matz
Yeah, I can't right now. I'm usually waiting on my travel papers and, like, you know, the. Which they didn't cut the. What is it? The uscis. They. That's not one of the.
[25:05]
Marc Maron
What is that?
[25:06]
Gavin Matz
Government. The government, whatever. Immigration.
[25:08]
Marc Maron
Okay.
[25:08]
Gavin Matz
That's. That hasn't, like, lost funding, which is nice. And I've been reading about it on Reddit.
[25:12]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[25:13]
Gavin Matz
So people are still getting their petitions coming in. Like, they, like, as Trump's being inaugurated, they're like, thank God I got my green card. I'm not so worried because I'm white and. Yeah, look like this. I don't think ICE is coming for us. Going to knock down.
[25:26]
Marc Maron
Well, no, not ice, but what if the. I mean, there is a fear of, like, he'll just lock us all in. But you kind of want to be here from. My fear is like, what if they lock us all in? I can get.
[25:35]
Gavin Matz
I got to get on a sitcom. Mark. Lock me into NBC.
[25:39]
Marc Maron
Sitcom. Are you going? Do you have a time machine?
[25:41]
Gavin Matz
Yeah. I'm joking. I'm joking.
[25:44]
Marc Maron
They do make them, though, dude.
[25:46]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[25:46]
Marc Maron
There are these sitcoms where I'm like, who the fuck is watching it? And it's the people that still watch television like that.
[25:50]
Gavin Matz
Hey, man, I sent in a tape to be Tim Allen's son. I'd get on Tim Allen's new show. You know, he's a mechanic now.
[25:59]
Marc Maron
Is he really?
[26:00]
Gavin Matz
Yeah, Salt of the earth.
[26:01]
Marc Maron
You're kidding, right?
[26:02]
Gavin Matz
I'm not. I'm not. I'm. I'm completely serious.
[26:05]
Marc Maron
Tim Allen's back.
[26:06]
Gavin Matz
He never left. He was just standing.
[26:09]
Marc Maron
Well, now like that they're the. The dominant voice in culture. I guess he can proudly be that. He shouldn't have any problem now, right?
[26:16]
Gavin Matz
Yeah. This is also my problem is, like, this is what's popular. But I'm like, especially comedy. I'm like, that's supposed to be counterculture. So I just like, why is that popular? Why are you doing that?
[26:26]
Marc Maron
Who?
[26:27]
Gavin Matz
Just everybody. Yeah, everybody. It's not even like a who or what. It's just like, everyone is, like, aligned that way. No one evolves anymore.
[26:35]
Marc Maron
Well, it sounds like you have some standards. Where. Where did you get them? I mean, when you were coming up, like, how you're 30, how long you've been doing it?
[26:43]
Gavin Matz
11 years.
[26:44]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah. So you're.
[26:45]
Marc Maron
You're punk.
[26:46]
Gavin Matz
Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's funny because you're like, I. I feel like just again, just beginning. But it's. As everything crumbles but yeah, it always.
[26:55]
Marc Maron
Kind of feels like that, though. Now it's the world, though. Before when I started, it was comedy in general that, like, at that time, you know, it was after the boom in the 80s, so there was this like. Yeah, the 80s comedy boom. And every club you'd go to, the guy be like, I don't know what's going on. Last week was packed, you know, and you don't know what week they're talking about. Oh, yeah, it was just. It had died, you know, and it was dead for a long time and there was not a big club thing and this sort of, you know, road headliner thing and kind of stop. So. So comedy was dead, but that is the opposite now, I don't think so.
[27:31]
Gavin Matz
I think it is dead on it. Like, clubs are dead unless you're in like a city where people go to them, like in New York or something, like, you know, like. But I think if you go anywhere, clubs kind of dead. Like, the people that are big acts, they don't do clubs anymore, whereas they used to just go to do clubs and you'd be like, in the club, you'd be like, who's that? You? Yeah.
[27:52]
Marc Maron
I mean, like, they do four or five shows in a week.
[27:54]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[27:55]
Marc Maron
And now if they've got the juice, they can just do one night of the theater or two shows at a.
[27:58]
Gavin Matz
Theater or an arena.
[28:00]
Ally Makofsky
So, yeah, I don't know.
[28:01]
Gavin Matz
I want to go see someone in an arena.
[28:02]
Marc Maron
I don't know what that is.
[28:03]
Gavin Matz
I've never wanted to see someone talk there.
[28:05]
Marc Maron
Have you ever been to an arena show? Have you ever been on.
[28:08]
Gavin Matz
Oh, I've never been on one. I've never been on one, but I've. I've been to one for fun.
[28:12]
Marc Maron
Who? Oh, really?
[28:13]
Gavin Matz
Yeah, comic. I've been to a couple for fun. I'm going to one even in March for fun. I'm going to go see Sebastian at the arena. Yeah.
[28:20]
Marc Maron
Do you like arena shows?
[28:22]
Gavin Matz
No.
[28:22]
Marc Maron
Isn't it just a bunch of people watching the monitor?
[28:24]
Gavin Matz
I've seen Kevin Hart in an arena.
[28:26]
Marc Maron
Why?
[28:26]
Gavin Matz
I just want. I just think it's funny to know what. What it is just to go there and be like. I mean, that's what most people going to a show and they're like, I'm going to see him in arena. That's. They just think that's like the biggest stage they can see that person on. So I think the environment itself is. Is funny.
[28:43]
Marc Maron
I never understood the appeal, though.
[28:45]
Gavin Matz
There is none.
[28:46]
Marc Maron
But, like, why do they all go?
[28:48]
Gavin Matz
I Don't know. I'd rather see somebody pop into like a 60 seat place or.
[28:52]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Or do like, you know, an hour in a. Like a reasonable sized venue where there's a sort of intimacy to it, of course.
[28:58]
Gavin Matz
Where I'm like, feeling like I know the person.
[29:00]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[29:01]
Marc Maron
Or that you can always connect with a crowd that size.
[29:03]
Gavin Matz
Of course. And when anyone that's like, they can even connect in an arena, I'm like, well, they're lying to you. And you're. You're easily lied, I guess.
[29:11]
Marc Maron
But you have to. Your whole pace changes. Everything, you know, has to have this. You know, everything has to be pretty big. And I just don't know what the experience is. And, you know, and I like some of those guys. I don't mind Sebastian.
[29:23]
Gavin Matz
No. I'm not shitting on him.
[29:24]
Marc Maron
No, I know.
[29:25]
Gavin Matz
I think he's funny.
[29:25]
Marc Maron
And, you know, he does a. You know, he puts a lot into throwing those jokes out there. A lot of physicalities. Like an athlete.
[29:32]
Gavin Matz
Yeah. Not a lot of people. I can't do that. I could.
[29:35]
Marc Maron
He has to wind up.
[29:36]
Gavin Matz
I barely am moving them.
[29:38]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[29:39]
Gavin Matz
I'm barely moving.
[29:40]
Marc Maron
But Nate doesn't move much. He does arenas.
[29:42]
Gavin Matz
That's. Yeah. That one that I kind of.
[29:44]
Marc Maron
Yeah, I think. I guess. I guess people like to be part of a big thing and, you know, and just listen to a guy talk. I mean, when you go to see Kevin, is it like a rock show?
[29:57]
Gavin Matz
I mean, I'd only. I'd only see. I saw him like, when I was still in Vancouver. I went.
[30:02]
Marc Maron
Are they like hooting and hollering? Are they. Are they listening?
[30:05]
Gavin Matz
No, it was a bad show until he went on.
[30:09]
Marc Maron
Oh, yeah.
[30:09]
Gavin Matz
And. And he had a lot of openers.
[30:12]
Marc Maron
They seem to bring a ton of openers. It's like one guy and nine guys.
[30:16]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[30:16]
Marc Maron
Doing two minutes even.
[30:18]
Gavin Matz
Like, I was. I live in New York now, but last week I went to a show at Madison Square Garden that my friend gave me tickets to to see people play Dungeons and Dragons live. Sold out Madison Square Garden. But the. It was called D20. And it's actually like, are you a DND guy? No, no, I'm not. But I went and the vibe was good. I did not know what was going on, but, like, it was really positive.
[30:43]
Marc Maron
And like, well, DND nerds are not. They're the bad. They're not the enemy.
[30:47]
Gavin Matz
Yeah, no, no, no. I was like, it's probably the opposite of when Kill Tony was in msg. Exactly.
[30:53]
Marc Maron
So wait, so like, what do they. They're wearing the costumes or what are they doing?
[30:57]
Gavin Matz
Some people are in costumes. They're the people on it in D20. They're a part of this thing called Dropout, which is just, like, improv. It's like they're from college humor. So they're all, like, people that have been doing improv and sketch comedy for a long time.
[31:10]
Marc Maron
So the D and D becomes a framework for the improv.
[31:14]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[31:14]
Marc Maron
Okay.
[31:15]
Gavin Matz
Yeah, it's fun. But they're just, like, all seated down. There's nothing really to it. But I like going to shows.
[31:20]
Marc Maron
They're not moving.
[31:21]
Gavin Matz
They're just sitting like this.
[31:22]
Marc Maron
They're just playing Dungeons and Cracking.
[31:24]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[31:24]
Marc Maron
Dude, it sold out Madison Square Garden.
[31:27]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[31:28]
Marc Maron
I don't know what's happening.
[31:29]
Gavin Matz
I don't either. I might get a cybertruck. You know what I mean? I'm crazy.
[31:34]
Marc Maron
What do you think is happening? Is it like. I mean, it's clear that people are craving some kind of communal event.
[31:42]
Gavin Matz
Of course.
[31:43]
Marc Maron
Right. And that this is something they do with their friends. Maybe they listen to a podcast, but I guess they're just going to be part of this community.
[31:52]
Gavin Matz
Yeah. People were preemptively cheering for things that I didn't know were coming.
[31:56]
Marc Maron
How would you know? I know, but before they roll the dice.
[31:59]
Gavin Matz
Yeah. Like they. They like. Or they would say something, and I guess that would remind them of something that happened in a previous episode. And they're so.
[32:06]
Marc Maron
Fuck.
[32:07]
Gavin Matz
And I'm just like, that's nice. I'm glad people have that.
[32:10]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[32:10]
Gavin Matz
You know?
[32:11]
Marc Maron
I know, but you would think, is there a way to get people moving in more like, I guess it's socially proactive, but when you think about politics and stuff, it's like, how come that we're the good folks who can draw big with the politics?
[32:23]
Gavin Matz
Yeah. I.
[32:25]
Marc Maron
We're the people facilitating possible change in the world that can make a compelling Madison Square Garden appearance.
[32:32]
Gavin Matz
I don't know.
[32:33]
Marc Maron
God damn it.
[32:34]
Gavin Matz
I don't know. But there was a improv riff on hedge fund managers and crypto, and everyone in the audience booed.
[32:42]
Marc Maron
Oh, good. Well, there you go.
[32:43]
Gavin Matz
So I think they kind of align politically.
[32:45]
Marc Maron
We're moving forward.
[32:46]
Gavin Matz
We get people to believe in us through Dungeons and Dragons.
[32:50]
Marc Maron
So the anti corporate. There's an anti corporate nerd contingency within the D and D community.
[32:56]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[32:56]
Marc Maron
That might actually help us out 100%.
[32:59]
Gavin Matz
That I'm here to tell you about today in this lost episode.
[33:04]
Marc Maron
So this Lost episode, this is not a lot.
[33:07]
Gavin Matz
No, no, no.
[33:08]
Marc Maron
But. But you're In Vancouver. And I guess when you live there, there is a, a limit to it remaining exciting or you wanting to stay there. There was just no future comedically there.
[33:18]
Gavin Matz
I, I mean, I, I don't know, I was never like thinking about that, but I just like kept doing stand up and then. And I was doing it all the time and I was eventually. And I was coming down and trying to visit LA with like what money I had once I turned 21. And yeah, I. And then in 2017, I won Canada's top comic and that gave me like 25 grand and that's how I got a visa. And then I was just like, okay, I'm going to go like rough it, you know.
[33:43]
Marc Maron
2017, Canada's top comic.
[33:45]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[33:46]
Marc Maron
How does that work?
[33:47]
Gavin Matz
It was like a competition with Just for Laughs where it was like to get to the finals. You. Like you. There was a first round and that got you voted into a voting round and then the voting round got you into a top eight. And then the top eight performed it Just for laughs in Toronto.
[34:02]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[34:02]
Gavin Matz
Queen Elizabeth Theater. And then, and then you did like a seven minute set and you were.
[34:07]
Marc Maron
Who were you up against?
[34:09]
Gavin Matz
Kathleen McGee, who is in a great comic who just passed away and she passed away. Yeah, she had cancer for a while, but she's very funny.
[34:17]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[34:18]
Gavin Matz
And Kelly Taylor, Kyle Bottom. Some. Just Canadian comics. Yeah, that, that, you know, they don't leave. They were. That. No, I think they would try to. And I think they were quite mad, honestly, at me because I was the youngest one there and I was kind of being like as a, of being a little jerk. Were you? Yeah.
[34:37]
Marc Maron
What, what style?
[34:38]
Gavin Matz
Just cocky, you know, just like this doesn't matter.
[34:42]
Marc Maron
Oh, diminishing. Diminishing event for the people that, who's. Who thought it was the biggest night of their life.
[34:49]
Gavin Matz
Yeah, yeah, that guy. Yeah. Real regret on that kind of behavior. But the buzzkill guy, not buzz. I mean. Yeah, I mean, fun for me.
[34:59]
Marc Maron
You guys don't realize, like, even though I won, it's not a big deal.
[35:02]
Gavin Matz
No, no, before that. Oh, but I was doing it. I was think I was trying to do some kind of, you know, you get in some kind of like. Yeah, exactly.
[35:12]
Marc Maron
You're trying to keep your own shit together and then, you know, not consciously undermine the other people.
[35:17]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[35:18]
Marc Maron
Oh, good for you.
[35:22]
Gavin Matz
Yeah, but I mean, I was 23, so.
[35:25]
Marc Maron
Hey, but why'd you get into comedy? Who were the people that like, you know, what drove you there when you were a kid? Like, what'd you grow up with, you.
[35:32]
Gavin Matz
Know, like, there was this job.
[35:33]
Marc Maron
Family.
[35:34]
Gavin Matz
Yeah. I have young. I have two younger sisters, an older sister, and then my mom. I had a lot of cousins because my mom is, like, the youngest of, like, 12.
[35:42]
Marc Maron
Oh, my God. So I was all Canadian.
[35:45]
Gavin Matz
Oh, they're all. They're all. They're all Canadian.
[35:48]
Marc Maron
Deep Canadian. Like, generations of Canadians.
[35:51]
Gavin Matz
No, my mom's dad was British, and it was. And then my mom's mom was, like, French Canadian.
[35:59]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[36:00]
Gavin Matz
Don't know a lot about my dad's side of the family.
[36:02]
Marc Maron
What happened to that guy?
[36:03]
Gavin Matz
He's around. He's a good guy.
[36:06]
Marc Maron
Are they together?
[36:07]
Gavin Matz
Yeah, they're together.
[36:09]
Marc Maron
Oh, you're talking about him like he's out of the picture.
[36:11]
Gavin Matz
No, no, no. I just don't know a lot about his family because, I mean, they. They had a falling out when I was really young.
[36:17]
Marc Maron
The whole family.
[36:20]
Gavin Matz
One of his brothers sided with his parents and. And then his other two brothers there, they're. They're still close.
[36:26]
Marc Maron
Oh, okay.
[36:27]
Gavin Matz
But they're all over the place. Yeah.
[36:29]
Marc Maron
What'd he do?
[36:30]
Gavin Matz
He worked. They're all kind of fishermen. He worked for Fisheries and Oceans Canada, my dad. And then my uncles are, like, fishermen and contractors.
[36:41]
Marc Maron
Like, out in the boat.
[36:42]
Gavin Matz
Yeah, out in the boat. Like my uncle Murray Moose, I call him.
[36:47]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[36:48]
Gavin Matz
He lives in. In Alert Bay, which is, like, deep Vancouver island, like, really far, far east.
[36:56]
Marc Maron
And he's got a boat.
[36:57]
Gavin Matz
Yeah, I got a little yellow boat. If I. If it's still the same one. Yeah, My uncle's got a boat. The same boat he's had for a while, my Uncle John.
[37:05]
Marc Maron
They're both fishermen.
[37:07]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[37:07]
Marc Maron
And they go out and they fish, and then they bring their fish to market.
[37:11]
Gavin Matz
Yeah. And they, like, smoke fish. They make. My Uncle John used to have a deli.
[37:16]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[37:16]
Gavin Matz
And that. I remember, that was, like, my favorite thing as a kid, going to his deli.
[37:20]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[37:20]
Gavin Matz
Yeah. Just have. Even. He makes such good. Like, he's just sausage and.
[37:26]
Marc Maron
Really.
[37:26]
Gavin Matz
Yeah, they're real, like, salt of the earth. Like, good guys.
[37:29]
Marc Maron
Smokes his own fish and makes his own sausage. He had a deli.
[37:32]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[37:32]
Marc Maron
Where you could buy it by the pound or eat it in house.
[37:35]
Gavin Matz
Yeah. And he makes sandwiches and.
[37:36]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[37:37]
Gavin Matz
You'd go in and I had the Nepo hookup. I would get free Pepsi. You know what I mean? It's a good time.
[37:42]
Marc Maron
Could go behind the counter.
[37:44]
Gavin Matz
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. My mom worked as, like, his, like, bookkeeper for a while in, like, the attic. The deli.
[37:50]
Marc Maron
My God, this seems like the Future. Why not that future? The fuck is wrong with you? You can still go back, dude.
[37:56]
Gavin Matz
He sold the deli, you know, like.
[37:59]
Marc Maron
Well, this is on Vancouver Island.
[38:01]
Gavin Matz
No, this was in, like, Langley, like.
[38:04]
Marc Maron
Oh, yeah, yeah.
[38:05]
Gavin Matz
And he lives kind of out in Fort Langley, kind of Alder grove area now. And he would, like, he's, like, building houses.
[38:11]
Marc Maron
And so he got out of the fishing racket.
[38:14]
Gavin Matz
Yeah, but they still fish. And they go up every year to this place, Winter harbor, and they have, like, a trailer there.
[38:19]
Marc Maron
But the fish that he smokes, does he catch him?
[38:21]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[38:22]
Marc Maron
Oh, my God.
[38:23]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[38:23]
Marc Maron
That's the life.
[38:25]
Gavin Matz
It is the life.
[38:26]
Marc Maron
Like, that's why I'm going to Canada now. Like, because I just been recently. Hope I can go. I don't know. I hope I don't. Well, I just want to have options, dude.
[38:35]
Gavin Matz
Of course, of course.
[38:36]
Marc Maron
But, but that sounds pretty good.
[38:39]
Gavin Matz
It's. It. I always say I'm like, I should have been a fisherman. I always say that.
[38:44]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[38:45]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[38:45]
Marc Maron
I mean, like, I don't know if I'm too old to get into the racket.
[38:48]
Gavin Matz
No, no.
[38:49]
Marc Maron
I don't know if I'm too old to, you know, get a boat and learn the things. But maybe I could do it in a leisurely way.
[38:55]
Gavin Matz
Yeah, that's.
[38:56]
Marc Maron
Maybe I could go out, catch some fish, smoke them.
[38:59]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[39:00]
Marc Maron
Hang out, have a friend over.
[39:02]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[39:02]
Marc Maron
Try this fish.
[39:03]
Gavin Matz
I mean, I remember you said we used. I used to go out on, like, long trips with them and on the boat. Yeah, we'd go. Well, we'd go on a fishing trip for, like, a week, and we'd spend every day, like, on the water.
[39:13]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[39:14]
Gavin Matz
And they'd play like, Kid Rock before it was problematic, and we'd. I remember catching big fish to Kid Rock playing. Yeah, yeah.
[39:23]
Marc Maron
Just out there in the ocean.
[39:25]
Gavin Matz
Out there in the ocean, did you see, like, whales, porpoises, whales, really? Orcas, all that, Dude. Yeah.
[39:32]
Marc Maron
What are we doing?
[39:33]
Gavin Matz
I, I, I don't, I don't know. I need to get on Tim Allen's show. I don't know.
[39:43]
Marc Maron
Is that why you're out here?
[39:45]
Gavin Matz
No, no, I'm out here doing a little. I just finished yesterday, a little part on the new season of Hacks.
[39:50]
Marc Maron
Oh, that's good.
[39:51]
Gavin Matz
So I've been coming out here doing that.
[39:53]
Marc Maron
What's that part?
[39:54]
Gavin Matz
I'm a writer in Deborah.
[39:57]
Marc Maron
On Deborah in the writing room.
[39:58]
Gavin Matz
Yeah. So it's pretty, it's pretty relaxed part. It's the longest I've ever been on a thing.
[40:03]
Marc Maron
How long were you on It.
[40:04]
Gavin Matz
Since the beginning of October.
[40:06]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[40:07]
Gavin Matz
On and off.
[40:08]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[40:08]
Marc Maron
And then so you're in the writer's room of the new show that she's. That. What's her name's Hosting.
[40:13]
Gavin Matz
Yeah. Which I think I could have said.
[40:15]
Marc Maron
Yeah, it's fine.
[40:15]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[40:16]
Marc Maron
Everyone knows that that's what's happening. You know, I'm not going to ask you what the dynamics were or what makes it an exciting season.
[40:22]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[40:23]
Marc Maron
Or what Hannah's character is doing.
[40:25]
Gavin Matz
Yeah, I have some stuff with Hannah and she's great. Yeah, Hannah's the best.
[40:30]
Marc Maron
So it's interesting. You're really kind of doing it the old way. Like, you know, you're doing the comedy, you seem serious about it. You have a point of view. You're like, fuck the man. But you're like, but the man needs me.
[40:41]
Gavin Matz
Yeah. Yeah. You can't. I can't. You know, in capitalism, I can't completely separate in this. You know what I mean? I am a cog in the machine.
[40:49]
Marc Maron
I never was able, like, I never had a handle on auditioning or acting. I was always yelling there was no way I was going to fit on a sitcom. So like, despite wanting to do it, I was just not. It was not going to happen.
[41:02]
Gavin Matz
Yeah. It's never like come my way. Like, I mean, I've done a couple things. I mean, this is the longest, but I'm just like, you know, and for that reason you just focus on stand up. But I don't want to like post.
[41:15]
Marc Maron
Really post your stand up.
[41:17]
Gavin Matz
I don't want to do it how everyone's doing it.
[41:19]
Marc Maron
I mean, what is what you mean, like crowd work?
[41:22]
Gavin Matz
Yeah, sure. Just like, you know, just the constant social media of it all.
[41:27]
Marc Maron
So it's a full time job.
[41:28]
Gavin Matz
I feel like I bite myself in the foot sometimes by doing that, but I kind of just like doing stand up and working on it on my own and then maybe, I mean, you know, work hard and people will see it.
[41:38]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah, yeah.
[41:39]
Gavin Matz
Even with the special, which like, I couldn't have done that without all things comedy or like Burr helping.
[41:46]
Marc Maron
Where did he see you?
[41:47]
Gavin Matz
I'd done his. The show that he did. The ringers.
[41:51]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[41:52]
Gavin Matz
On comedy. And I did a set on that and. And then I just had a relationship with them and I pretty much just like sent what I was working on at the time and was like. And then they gave me money to shoot an hour.
[42:05]
Marc Maron
And where'd you do that?
[42:07]
Gavin Matz
In Vancouver at this place called the Biltmore. Yeah, it's a little rock club.
[42:11]
Marc Maron
Yeah, it's kind of interesting because, like, there was no kind of sort of effort to be like, yeah, it's a show. You just kind of come out. Seemed like there was a few people there.
[42:25]
Gavin Matz
Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's. There's a few people there. It's all the second show because the first show was awful.
[42:31]
Marc Maron
But what happened?
[42:33]
Gavin Matz
Just getting heckled by this lady who used to cut my hair the whole show. Yeah.
[42:37]
Marc Maron
Couldn't shut her down.
[42:39]
Gavin Matz
I, I tried, but eventually it's just like no one was kicking her out. It was during, like, Just for Laughs. And there was no, it wasn't. It wasn't like a comedy club or anything, so.
[42:49]
Marc Maron
Oh, so you did it during the festival.
[42:50]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[42:51]
Marc Maron
So you got the festival pull. Yeah, but the fact. But you knew the woman.
[42:55]
Gavin Matz
Yeah, I knew the woman. Yeah.
[42:56]
Marc Maron
And she up your whole first show.
[42:58]
Gavin Matz
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[42:59]
Marc Maron
So you got that on tape and you had a. You had to, you know, in between shows, you had to be like, I.
[43:04]
Gavin Matz
Mean, I fully like Marriage Story. Punch the walls. Losing it.
[43:09]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
[43:09]
Gavin Matz
But, yeah, but then the second show works and I'm, I like it a lot. I'm glad I have it. And I'm like, it did what I wanted it to do and I works with the title and I'm just happy with it.
[43:20]
Marc Maron
And what was it? Progression.
[43:22]
Gavin Matz
Progression, yeah.
[43:23]
Marc Maron
So what was the idea? You had an idea. You had a theme.
[43:26]
Gavin Matz
Yeah, I have an idea for like, you know, the future, if that ever happens, to do a little like, you know, Kanye west for tied together kind of things.
[43:37]
Ally Makofsky
Oh, really?
[43:38]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[43:39]
Marc Maron
So there's going to be several progression and then, and then, and then the.
[43:43]
Gavin Matz
One that I want to do now, which I, I feel like, because I taped that like two years ago, that I. And I have finally have, like, I think what I've improved on. I'm trying to do another one that like, matches that.
[43:55]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[43:56]
Gavin Matz
Kind of, you know, progression of style or whatever called present and just more in the moment and.
[44:02]
Ally Makofsky
Okay.
[44:03]
Marc Maron
So it's sort of like a James Acaster idea.
[44:07]
Gavin Matz
Yeah, I like him a lot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like he might be. And like, there's only like a couple people who really think about what they're doing on, like, the grand scale of, like, doing stand up their body of work, you know?
[44:19]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[44:20]
Marc Maron
I did a series of albums. One was called Not Sold Out.
[44:25]
Gavin Matz
Okay.
[44:26]
Marc Maron
The other one was called Tickets Still Available.
[44:28]
Gavin Matz
Okay.
[44:29]
Marc Maron
And then the third one was Final Engagement.
[44:31]
Gavin Matz
Okay.
[44:32]
Marc Maron
Now I don't. Because I was done.
[44:34]
Gavin Matz
You quit?
[44:35]
Marc Maron
Well, no, I, I, you were done with that no, it felt like the last. It always feels like the last one to me. And. And not sold out was literally like 60 people. And it was right after 9, 11.
[44:49]
Gavin Matz
Whoa.
[44:49]
Marc Maron
@ stand up New York. And I just had a guy who had a DAT recorder do it. And we put that out. That was the first cd. And it was like. It was reissued later, but it was, you know, it was a very loose, fucked up show. And then tickets still available, I did in Seattle at. What was that place called?
[45:09]
Gavin Matz
The Underground.
[45:10]
Marc Maron
Yes. Yeah. Was it the Underground?
[45:12]
Gavin Matz
There was. The Underground is the one place that I knew that I did it a couple times right before it closed.
[45:17]
Marc Maron
Terry?
[45:18]
Gavin Matz
Yeah, I think so. In the basement, kind of like.
[45:21]
Marc Maron
No, that was. That was better. Why am I forgetting?
[45:24]
Gavin Matz
Oh. Laughs Then maybe not.
[45:26]
Marc Maron
Laughs it was the other one. And now I'm spacing it out. Like, Terry used to own the club. He'd sell the tickets, he'd serve the drinks, he'd open the show and then he'd try to rip you off. I can't. I can't remember what the fucking name of the club. Why is that? Why is this happening? But was. It was. It's a horrible little club, but, you know, had low ceilings. It was all right. And. And I just called him, I said, yeah, I need to, you know, I need to, you know, make a record. And we did that there, and it wasn't sold out. And. And then the last one, final engagement, same thing. I was just out of. My wife had just left me and I was like, I. All this was very loose. I was very angry and I was, you know, heartbroken and just full of hate. Not really hate, just anger, emotion. Right. So I laid that down over four shows. None of them were sold out. And they're out there. And Louis Katz said that final engagement really saved his life. It helped him out.
[46:27]
Gavin Matz
Wow.
[46:28]
Marc Maron
Yeah. So I delivered for one guy.
[46:31]
Gavin Matz
That's kind of all you want, right? You want one person? I mean, I had like one. I had like. Yeah, just like one person I'm cool with. I don't need an arena. No, no. Yeah. Because when I got familiar with you, obviously I'm a bit younger than Louis, so. Yeah, I missed those. And like. But thinky Pain.
[46:51]
Marc Maron
Oh, yeah, that was one that was of that ilk.
[46:54]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[46:55]
Marc Maron
Where like, it was before Netflix was a thing. It was just an hour and a half of kind of half thought out stuff.
[47:01]
Gavin Matz
Yeah, I remember watching that. I was like, man, it was like, right when I was like, getting into.
[47:05]
Marc Maron
Comedy, you're like, anyone can do this.
[47:08]
Gavin Matz
No, no. I was like, man, he's just gonna sit down right away. I was like. I was like, this is blowing my mind. He sat down right away. When's he gonna get up?
[47:18]
Marc Maron
I got up a couple times.
[47:20]
Gavin Matz
Yeah, he did.
[47:20]
Marc Maron
That was a decision, dude, the sitting down, like, you know, I was like, you know, I did my share running around.
[47:27]
Gavin Matz
Look, I tried it for a while, I think, and couldn't hold it. No, I mean. I mean, off of. That's your influence.
[47:35]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[47:35]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[47:37]
Marc Maron
Well, what I noticed was that there were a couple. It happened later in my career because, you know, you find that, like, when you're walking around, especially if you're doing. You're trying to hold. Grab them, like, and you feel this compulsion to kind of, you know, move back and forth. I'll do some pacing, you know, still at the Comedy Store, but I just. I found that sitting down, you know, if you don't freak out, you know, it draws the attention differently.
[48:03]
Gavin Matz
Totally.
[48:04]
Marc Maron
And, you know, if you can hold that, you know, it's. It's your own space, and you don't feel like you're running around trying it seem desperate.
[48:12]
Gavin Matz
I know it does. I do things that are grounding on stage, like grab the mic stand behind me, kind of like lean back on it sometimes. But that has gone not my way a couple of times. Where the mic stand snapped at the bottom.
[48:23]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[48:24]
Marc Maron
Oh, really?
[48:25]
Gavin Matz
Yeah. Yeah. That's happened to me at the stand in New York a couple times, and I think I owe them a couple mic stands, but I'm trying to.
[48:31]
Marc Maron
It's sad when. When the. You know, when the one thing you need up there, you.
[48:36]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[48:37]
Ally Makofsky
And then you.
[48:37]
Marc Maron
You're embarrassed. You're just trying to be cool and then.
[48:41]
Gavin Matz
Trying to be cool and then be listened to.
[48:44]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[48:44]
Marc Maron
And then.
[48:44]
Gavin Matz
And then they're like, this guy doesn't even know who he is or what he's doing.
[48:48]
Marc Maron
We saw that. The. The mic stand breaking opened the portal.
[48:51]
Gavin Matz
Yeah. This.
[48:52]
Marc Maron
Into his vulnerability.
[48:53]
Gavin Matz
The fourth wall, there's.
[48:54]
Marc Maron
Yeah, he's scrambling. He's drowning up there.
[48:58]
Gavin Matz
Literally. He's holding this. The mic stand. No bottom. Just a true. A real metaphor for his life and decisions.
[49:06]
Marc Maron
You make the joke, but you've still been upstaged by things out of your control.
[49:10]
Gavin Matz
I know. And nothing will ever be better than that.
[49:12]
Marc Maron
No.
[49:13]
Gavin Matz
For the audience.
[49:13]
Marc Maron
My back when he could smoke my. I. My hair caught on fire on stage. That was a big moment.
[49:19]
Gavin Matz
Oh, that's a huge moment.
[49:20]
Marc Maron
Because I had really long hair and I used to flip it Back. And I did. I did it with a cigarette in my mouth, and I'm just doing my joke. And the front row was like, dude. And my hair was on fire.
[49:29]
Gavin Matz
Oh, man.
[49:30]
Marc Maron
And it's hard to come back from that. I mean, it's vulnerability. I mean, they. They felt good that I got it out.
[49:36]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[49:36]
Marc Maron
But it was. It was a bad moment.
[49:38]
Gavin Matz
You kind of just got to close and leave after that.
[49:41]
Marc Maron
Now you kind of. You kind of just sitting it. Sit in the embarrassment, man. That's all we're trying to fight, isn't it?
[49:47]
Gavin Matz
Yeah. You kind of got to own it. It's so hard.
[49:50]
Marc Maron
The whole reason we get in this, it's a war against being embarrassed.
[49:53]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[49:53]
Marc Maron
And so when it happens, you got to be like, take the hit. Let's see if we can crawl out of this. Don't run away, man.
[49:59]
Gavin Matz
Yeah. I try to. Truly. I try not to isolate myself from the audience, but I tend to, you know.
[50:04]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[50:04]
Gavin Matz
Like, when you're up there, real sometimes us. Me against you thing that I've slowly gotten rid of.
[50:10]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[50:12]
Marc Maron
I do that.
[50:13]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[50:14]
Marc Maron
Like. Like, people talk about how, like, people do stand up because they want to be loved. I'm like, that might be true, but not for that long.
[50:22]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[50:22]
Marc Maron
You know, maybe a minute or two.
[50:24]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[50:24]
Marc Maron
And then kind of throw something in. Yeah, you do kind of do that.
[50:26]
Gavin Matz
I'm like, don't clap at that.
[50:28]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah, yeah.
[50:28]
Marc Maron
Or like.
[50:29]
Gavin Matz
And I actually change completely from smiling to don't.
[50:32]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah. Yeah.
[50:33]
Marc Maron
What is that? I don't know what that is. Or else you do a joke that everybody likes, and you're like, all right, well, how about this one?
[50:38]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[50:38]
Marc Maron
You don't like me so much anymore, do you?
[50:40]
Gavin Matz
Oh, I hate when I'm like, now I have to close. I'm always like, why do we have to build to that?
[50:46]
Marc Maron
You don't. A lot of guys don't do it anymore. It's old school.
[50:50]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[50:50]
Marc Maron
I think you should probably have a closer.
[50:52]
Gavin Matz
I mean, the seller. I mean, the seller. You have to, like, close.
[50:57]
Marc Maron
You have to close every joke.
[50:59]
Gavin Matz
Yeah. You have to.
[50:59]
Marc Maron
You can't. There's no.
[51:01]
Gavin Matz
You have. You have to.
[51:02]
Marc Maron
I mean, you can't have any weak moments at the seller.
[51:05]
Gavin Matz
No. I mean, so you have. You have to.
[51:08]
Marc Maron
I.
[51:08]
Gavin Matz
Which is. I sometimes. I mean, I've been working there for, like, a year, but I sometimes can feel like I don't fit in there at all. And I'm like, me, too. But I want to work there, because I do. I do need the. The Cash.
[51:19]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah. Oh, you do? Yeah.
[51:21]
Marc Maron
In the stage time. Doesn't matter.
[51:22]
Gavin Matz
Stage time. I love. And I love the rooms.
[51:25]
Marc Maron
Like, I. I guess I do. I mean, I'm 61, and I still feel that when I go there, I feel like, oh, is Estee here?
[51:31]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[51:31]
Marc Maron
What am I? Like, I'm me.
[51:33]
Gavin Matz
Yeah. I mean, I talked to Todd Barry. Yeah. And he'll be like, she gave me any spots.
[51:38]
Marc Maron
She can give me any spots.
[51:39]
Gavin Matz
She gave me all the bad spots. And I'm like. I'm like. I'm like, I can't. How long am I going to do this?
[51:46]
Marc Maron
I'm too proud to deal with that shit. I can't. I can't.
[51:50]
Gavin Matz
And he's. And Todd is like.
[51:51]
Marc Maron
He's so funny.
[51:52]
Gavin Matz
He's like. He's like, my. Like, my fate. My favorite.
[51:55]
Marc Maron
You have Todd.
[51:56]
Gavin Matz
I love Todd, dude. Medium energy was like, my shit. Like. And I told him that, and he was like, really? You know, And I'm like, yeah, man. I was like, you remember there's a part of that album where you're, like, riffing with the crowd and you just say, wet Candy. And he's like. And I just said. I said that. Like. Like, as a teenager. Wet candy. I used to always say that. And I brought it up to him. He's like. He acted like he didn't know me, you know, he's like, I don't remember that at all.
[52:25]
Marc Maron
Really?
[52:25]
Gavin Matz
Yeah. I'm like, what? This was, like, formative.
[52:28]
Marc Maron
Like, we started together. We used to wander around him, and I used to wander around the. The Village. Just be like, why can't we get spots? Yeah, but I can't. I don't have. You know, like, there used to be a club called Catch, Rising Star, and the guy who ran it was this guy, Louis Ferranda, and he would just sort of randomly pick who would go on.
[52:46]
Gavin Matz
Oh, I know. Lewis is around.
[52:47]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[52:48]
Marc Maron
He works for the festival now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But. But he used to be the bartender, and then he became the booker of, like, this. This big club. And guys would just sit up there and wait for hours to see if he would throw them on, you know, usually after the audience had left. And I just couldn't do it.
[53:02]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[53:02]
Marc Maron
I just. I couldn't let that guy.
[53:04]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[53:05]
Marc Maron
Have power over my life.
[53:06]
Gavin Matz
Yeah. That. You got to get out of there.
[53:08]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[53:08]
Marc Maron
It was the same with the seller. You just, like, after a certain point.
[53:11]
Gavin Matz
You'Re like, don't tell me I have the juice.
[53:13]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[53:13]
Gavin Matz
Don't talk to me. This way. No, you know, you know what I mean? When someone's like, you got. Yeah, yeah, you're good, you got off. Why?
[53:21]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[53:23]
Marc Maron
So what are you gonna do with all this fight? You're just gonna keep plugging along, I.
[53:26]
Gavin Matz
Guess, until I explode.
[53:27]
Marc Maron
What is the presence? What's the idea for the next special?
[53:30]
Gavin Matz
You know, about that time? Present.
[53:35]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[53:36]
Gavin Matz
Moment.
[53:36]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[53:37]
Gavin Matz
Memory.
[53:37]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[53:38]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[53:39]
Marc Maron
So what are your fears right now for like, you know, in terms of what's going on politically? Why do you think, how you think it's going to affect show business or is it just going to affect you?
[53:46]
Gavin Matz
I think it affects me because I care about people.
[53:50]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[53:50]
Gavin Matz
Which is, I think a crazy thought. I don't think a lot of comedians think like that anymore.
[53:55]
Marc Maron
Well, I think a lot of guys are a lot more adept at the business and they get into it to make money, which was never my thought.
[54:03]
Gavin Matz
Yeah. Because I'm, I'm still like, what?
[54:07]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[54:07]
Gavin Matz
You know.
[54:08]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[54:08]
Gavin Matz
I was just on a show for like five months and I'm like, I'm.
[54:12]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[54:14]
Gavin Matz
I'm like, what? Yeah, I was going to get on TV and I'd be rich.
[54:18]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[54:19]
Marc Maron
No, didn't work out.
[54:20]
Gavin Matz
You know, you always think things are going to be different and then you.
[54:22]
Marc Maron
Got to get the next one.
[54:23]
Gavin Matz
And then you're like, now and then it's just this. And I'm like, I get anything. You got to keep going and going and going. I know you got to join sag. That's.
[54:30]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[54:30]
Gavin Matz
You know what I mean?
[54:31]
Marc Maron
So now you're in. You probably made enough money to get a little insurance coverage.
[54:34]
Gavin Matz
Yeah. And I got. And then you're like, you know, with stand up, you're like, oh, you got a tour. Yeah, Like I did that when I did the last one.
[54:42]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[54:42]
Gavin Matz
You know what I mean?
[54:42]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[54:43]
Gavin Matz
I can't again until it's better. Well, do you draw in like Chicago and like in five places? Yeah, you know.
[54:51]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[54:52]
Gavin Matz
Which is fine. I'm happy with that. I love going to those places where I draw.
[54:55]
Marc Maron
Right.
[54:56]
Gavin Matz
But I'm like, I mean, with. When I was touring this, which I wasn't really touring, I went like kind of old school and was doing like one nighters in like Danville, Kentucky for like 20 progression. Yeah.
[55:09]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[55:09]
Gavin Matz
I was out there staying with divorced guys all over the country, crashing on couches. Recently divorced.
[55:16]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[55:16]
Gavin Matz
I got a couch to spare.
[55:17]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[55:18]
Gavin Matz
Just bombing everywhere, really. And I'm just like, you know what I mean?
[55:24]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[55:24]
Gavin Matz
Driving five hours to bomb for an hour. Yeah.
[55:29]
Marc Maron
But it Got you tough. You still believed in it.
[55:33]
Gavin Matz
Yeah. I was like, this is good. And when I would do it and it had, like, a crowd, I'd be like, okay, great. I'm like, I like this.
[55:39]
Marc Maron
Well, that's like, a tough road to hoe. When you do it a specific way and you're not gonna waver. Is that like, you know, you don't got a second gear that you're gonna kick into.
[55:48]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[55:48]
Marc Maron
To sort of get everybody on board.
[55:51]
Gavin Matz
Yeah. I'm not. I. And I don't think it's anything like. I don't think my. What I'm doing is, like, revolutionary, where people are gonna be, like, holding, holy shit, you gotta see this guy, right?
[56:01]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[56:02]
Gavin Matz
Like, I'm just another guy, you know? It's not like some new sound.
[56:11]
Marc Maron
Well, it can be. But you. You know, your pace is sort of like. Well, now that I know you like Todd, who were some of the other slowpokes that you liked?
[56:18]
Gavin Matz
You know? Hannibal. Yeah, Hannibal.
[56:20]
Marc Maron
Early Hannibal. Yeah.
[56:22]
Gavin Matz
Like, you know, the John Doerr had this show that was on that was, like, all filmed at Just for Laughs. And that's kind of how I liked, like, saw everybody that I liked. Like, Chelsea Peretti was the first stand up I ever saw live.
[56:34]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[56:34]
Gavin Matz
Saw her open for Aziz. The. My mom got me a ticket as my graduation present from high school.
[56:44]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[56:44]
Gavin Matz
It was the first show I went to. It's just one ticket.
[56:47]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[56:48]
Gavin Matz
To Aziz.
[56:49]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[56:49]
Gavin Matz
And I went and I watched in Chelsea opened, and I was like, whoa.
[56:53]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[56:53]
Gavin Matz
They have openers.
[56:55]
Marc Maron
Oh, that was it.
[56:55]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[56:56]
Gavin Matz
And I was like, wow. I was like, she's so funny and, like, dry and, like, like, slow.
[57:01]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[57:01]
Gavin Matz
Like.
[57:01]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[57:02]
Marc Maron
So you knew it could be done.
[57:04]
Gavin Matz
I was like. I think I was like, yeah, it was just, like, mind opening.
[57:07]
Marc Maron
And that was before you did open mics.
[57:09]
Gavin Matz
Yeah, that was before I did open mics. I didn't do one until, like, a year later.
[57:13]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[57:14]
Gavin Matz
When I, like, figured out you could do that.
[57:16]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[57:16]
Gavin Matz
In the bottom of Goldie's pizza.
[57:18]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[57:18]
Marc Maron
Goldie's Pizza.
[57:19]
Gavin Matz
Marlo Franzen.
[57:20]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[57:21]
Marc Maron
Who's that?
[57:22]
Gavin Matz
You know, he had stuff like, you know, I'm an actor. You might have seen me in the Titanic. I played the boat.
[57:32]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[57:33]
Gavin Matz
You know, you might have seen me in Apollo 13.
[57:35]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[57:36]
Gavin Matz
I played the moon.
[57:37]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[57:37]
Gavin Matz
Yeah. He's a big fat guy.
[57:38]
Marc Maron
Oh, right.
[57:39]
Gavin Matz
So his bit was. Oh, yeah, it was.
[57:42]
Marc Maron
And he hosted that show.
[57:43]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[57:43]
Marc Maron
And you. You go on. There was nobody. There was a pretty packed.
[57:46]
Gavin Matz
You know, there's some Comics. And that was it.
[57:49]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[57:50]
Gavin Matz
And there was, like, three mics there a week.
[57:53]
Marc Maron
And you got the bug and that was it.
[57:55]
Gavin Matz
Yeah, yeah, I got the bug, and that was it. There's no, like, grand story when people ask you. I'm just like, yeah, I just started doing it, and then I was doing it.
[58:03]
Marc Maron
Were you, like, a Hedberg guy?
[58:05]
Gavin Matz
Yeah, well, I liked Hannibal first.
[58:07]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[58:08]
Gavin Matz
And then.
[58:08]
Marc Maron
Then you go back, and then you.
[58:10]
Gavin Matz
Go back and you're, like, trailing through and you find people and like. Yeah, all that stuff. But, yeah, it's very Hannibal. And I was like. People were like, obviously, say Hedberg to me. But I was like, I didn't know who that was. And then I went back to it.
[58:24]
Marc Maron
And you found it, and you're like, that's what invented Hannibal.
[58:27]
Gavin Matz
Yeah, of course.
[58:28]
Marc Maron
But then Hannibal became sort of like a musical act and a freak and a weirdo. Changed his pace.
[58:33]
Gavin Matz
Sure.
[58:34]
Marc Maron
He changed everything.
[58:35]
Gavin Matz
I mean, that's. I mean, that is kind of what progression is about, is like, I'm, like, recognizing these things and, like. I mean, like, finding, like, you're getting to your own style through that.
[58:46]
Marc Maron
Well, it's interesting because you got so much attention, you know, early on, and he definitely had a different style. And then all of a sudden, you know, he's wearing a shiny suit and he's doing music.
[58:54]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[58:55]
Marc Maron
And he's like. His pace has changed. It's like, almost like he came out of his shell. Like, you know, what made him famous was his nervous kind of defense mechanism or. Or his sort of just trying to socialize.
[59:06]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[59:07]
Marc Maron
And then, like, all of a sudden, now he's, like, this big act.
[59:10]
Gavin Matz
Yeah. And now he, like. He's reopening, like, the Knitting Factory and stuff.
[59:13]
Marc Maron
Is he?
[59:14]
Gavin Matz
Yeah, he's a cool guy. I know he's great. I've never met him, but, like.
[59:17]
Marc Maron
Oh, yeah. When I talked to him, it was crazy story. Just him, like, sleeping on the subway and driving around, you know. On the subway for hours. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, he really. He paid his dues. But it's interesting when someone's style changes that much. I mean, I feel like on this tour, because of the world and because of my audience, you know, I've had to figure out some other approach in some way.
[59:40]
Gavin Matz
In what.
[59:41]
Marc Maron
In how I'd present the actual.
[59:43]
Gavin Matz
Okay, so you're not like, doomsday?
[59:46]
Marc Maron
Well, I am sort of doomsday, but there's a. Now that it's happened, you know, and it feels like everybody's sort of in shock, boiling Frog? Yeah, kinda, but just sort of like they're like traumatized and it doesn't feel like, it feels like it's over. So like, I have to approach it like, you know, there's one thing to sort of like call something out with anger in resistance when you feel like there's fight left. But like right now, maybe it'll change in a few months. I don't know. It doesn't feel like there's fight. It feels like there's just this PTSD and this sort of weird kind of shock. So like going into it, like I've, I've started to be more like, look, you know, we're all in the same boat, you know, it's bad. I don't know if I have solutions. I can reflect on my feelings about it, but I can also then from there just try to be entertaining in the moment that we're in. And I'm not a guy that generally thinks about entertaining. But then all of a sudden I started to realize like, well, maybe, you know, you can set up where we're at and then just entertain within that.
[61:06]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[61:06]
Marc Maron
As opposed to be like, you know, I know the answers or these people or whatever. Like the people I have, my audience, you know, they're, they're a fragile bunch and they're grown ups and they're sensitive and they're, most of them are progressive. So, you know, I can kind of weave in the, the doom, of course, but then kind of like try to lift up a little.
[61:30]
Gavin Matz
Yeah. I mean, I do think now probably it's, it's an important time to push back on, you know, what's happening. And I think that's important. I think people will find comfort in that.
[61:43]
Marc Maron
You push back in the way that, you know, you can do, you can live your life. And that's going to be on some level, if you think a certain way, an actual act of resistance is that you can't buckle to this wave of, you know, pseudo macho fascist garbage.
[62:06]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[62:06]
Marc Maron
I mean, you have to show up in your life in, in the way that you feel is right. But I think a lot of people even think that's afraid, that's frightening. So that's the tricky part. It's. They live in these towns, they have neighbors they don't fucking know. And all these people are emboldened. So, you know, sensitive people just go in, they, they go in themselves and they just mind their own business. So I kind of like talk about how well you have to continue to stand up in your life, you know, so someone's got to hold the line and you can't just, you know, wither away. No, but it's hard, dude. Yeah, it's really. We're getting this, you know, front row seat to see how this propaganda brain works on people.
[62:50]
Gavin Matz
Yeah, it's, it's so. I mean, the, the I actually like with misinformation. I always thought it would be pretty obvious what is and isn't.
[63:00]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[63:01]
Gavin Matz
And it's not.
[63:02]
Ally Makofsky
No.
[63:03]
Marc Maron
Because the phones have like in the, the sort of algorithms have locked people in to a belief system.
[63:10]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[63:10]
Marc Maron
That is reaffirmed constantly.
[63:12]
Gavin Matz
And I felt like TikTok was really pushing people. Like, at least from like what I've seen on there and what everyone's talked about, it felt like so informative.
[63:22]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[63:22]
Gavin Matz
You know, for like two years.
[63:25]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[63:25]
Gavin Matz
And it felt like it was like kind of mobilizing, like people my age and even like, you know, younger than me in like a way that like I'd never seen before, you know?
[63:35]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[63:36]
Gavin Matz
And. And then for that to be like, I've seen a switch in it since it's like shut down.
[63:44]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[63:45]
Gavin Matz
To where it's quite obvious that that's.
[63:49]
Marc Maron
Been used as a brain machine.
[63:50]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[63:51]
Marc Maron
Oh, yeah.
[63:52]
Gavin Matz
Well, it's going to be.
[63:53]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[63:53]
Gavin Matz
Whereas like, I felt like before it was more open.
[63:56]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[63:56]
Marc Maron
But openness depending on who's flooding the, the field.
[64:02]
Gavin Matz
Yeah. Zuckerberg.
[64:04]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[64:04]
Marc Maron
I don't know, man. So, so you're just gonna what, the man?
[64:09]
Gavin Matz
Yeah, man. The man. This I just want to do stand up. But I, I do, I, I, but I, I actually, I mean, I'm. I'm joking when I repeating you say that. But yeah. I don't know. I, I care. I'm like, I have things I want to do.
[64:23]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah, like what?
[64:26]
Gavin Matz
Just what I'm doing, you know, and I don't want that to stop.
[64:29]
Marc Maron
So what in terms of like.
[64:32]
Gavin Matz
Sorry.
[64:32]
Marc Maron
You know, where. What one has to do to get out there, you just, you don't have the wherewithal to feed the beast. The content beast.
[64:41]
Gavin Matz
Not the content beast. But, you know, there's other things I want to act. I like your career a lot. Like the things you've done.
[64:48]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[64:49]
Gavin Matz
That you're good in the order.
[64:50]
Marc Maron
Oh, thanks, man.
[64:51]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[64:52]
Marc Maron
You know, I studied that guy. I knew who that guy was.
[64:54]
Gavin Matz
That movie was good.
[64:55]
Marc Maron
And my fear was being that guy. So I thought if I acted as that guy, maybe it would get me out of the way, man. Of being that guy.
[65:03]
Gavin Matz
It was great. I thought it was great.
[65:05]
Marc Maron
Oh, thanks.
[65:05]
Gavin Matz
Yeah, I love that movie. Saw that at, like, late 11pm showing at Angelica. You know the one in New York with the train underneath?
[65:13]
Ally Makofsky
Oh, yeah, yeah.
[65:14]
Marc Maron
Down on Houston. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I. Well, the acting thing, it was something I always wanted to do, but it didn't look like it was going to happen. And it didn't happen. I was in my 40s where, you know.
[65:24]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[65:24]
Marc Maron
It was crazy. And now I'm trying to figure it out. Did you study acting?
[65:29]
Gavin Matz
No.
[65:29]
Marc Maron
You're just doing it.
[65:30]
Gavin Matz
No, I always wanted to do it and I always wanted to. I just didn't know. I mean, stand up, I guess, is my way in, but I never knew you could do any of this stuff. I didn't grow up in, like, a. Like, I did drama in grade eight.
[65:42]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah. Yeah.
[65:44]
Gavin Matz
Not after that.
[65:44]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah, yeah.
[65:46]
Gavin Matz
You know, my sister, she had a friend that was acting, and I remember picking her up from her friend up. My mom picked her up from Stanley Park. She was in a Nesquik commercial.
[65:58]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[65:59]
Gavin Matz
You know, the Nesquik bunny.
[66:00]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[66:01]
Gavin Matz
And there was, like, cameras and stuff, and I was pretty young and I was like, I want to do that. And my mom's like, okay, yeah. And then that. And then that was kind of like, it. I was like, can you do that?
[66:11]
Marc Maron
Did you do any? No, no. Now it's happening.
[66:15]
Gavin Matz
Yeah. Yeah.
[66:16]
Marc Maron
Do you write shows? Are you developing?
[66:19]
Gavin Matz
Yeah, yeah.
[66:21]
Marc Maron
You sell them?
[66:22]
Gavin Matz
I'd. I had a movie that. It was in development at Columbia for, like, a couple years ago, and it kind of fell apart. And then I just had one fall apart because somebody dropped out and trying to take a show out. Make a show.
[66:36]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[66:37]
Gavin Matz
Try to reach young men.
[66:38]
Marc Maron
Oh, yeah. What's your angle on that?
[66:41]
Gavin Matz
Just show normal. I feel like a lot of television hasn't ever shown, like, normal dudes, guys. Even though it's like, under the guise of, like, I'm a businessman, I'm like, you know what I mean? There's never anything that's, like, true or real to, like, me and my friends. So I'm like, you know, pretty much like, what is Our girls? You know.
[67:04]
Marc Maron
Right. And what does that look like? You think you've got a handle on it?
[67:07]
Gavin Matz
I think I do. I think I'm pretty. Like, I think I have, like, my finger on. Like.
[67:12]
Marc Maron
It's kind of a weird generation. I wouldn't know how to characterize it.
[67:15]
Gavin Matz
I mean. Yeah. The in betweens of, like, Millennial and Gen Z is like. It's kind of. It's a weird, like, lost years.
[67:23]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[67:24]
Marc Maron
You're On Rami's show too.
[67:25]
Gavin Matz
Yeah, I did a little. Yeah, he gave me. He threw me a little bow.
[67:28]
Marc Maron
And you know that guy.
[67:29]
Gavin Matz
Yeah, I know that guy.
[67:30]
Marc Maron
Those guys are doing like. Him and Mo are doing good shows.
[67:32]
Gavin Matz
Mo is great.
[67:33]
Marc Maron
Great.
[67:34]
Gavin Matz
Mo is awesome.
[67:35]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[67:35]
Marc Maron
I just watched a second season of his show.
[67:37]
Gavin Matz
You finished it. I only got through that. I've only watched.
[67:39]
Marc Maron
I had to talk to him.
[67:40]
Gavin Matz
Okay, great.
[67:41]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[67:41]
Marc Maron
Sweet guy.
[67:42]
Gavin Matz
Yeah. But you know that I saw him talk and we drove down to dc. I think it must have been like November. I mean, when he was at that protest in dc, we, me and some friends, because they're close with Mo, but he just ended up talking there.
[67:58]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[67:59]
Gavin Matz
And is that the one with Chappelle? No, that was him just for like, he, he. We were just like on the White House, like outside.
[68:07]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[68:08]
Gavin Matz
Congress protesting ceasefire.
[68:11]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[68:11]
Gavin Matz
For Palestine. And he talked and it was beautiful. And then he did a show that night at the Comedy Loft and. And he talked for like an hour and a half and it was like, beautiful.
[68:25]
Marc Maron
Yeah, he's a deep hearted dude.
[68:28]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[68:28]
Marc Maron
But like, I think that when you're dealing with people that come from communities, ethnic communities, or a different heritage or immigrant story, you know, there's something important about those shows in terms of, you know, what America looks like and what being an American is. Right?
[68:47]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[68:48]
Marc Maron
In the sense that, like when I watch like Reservation Dogs or Rami show or even Mo's show, like, you know, I'm a pretty open minded guy, but I don't know anything about that life. Life. And it's a life that's built on, you know, a community that's existed for thousands of years and now they're here and, and how they kind of. How they hold their families together. But there's a sense of history. Whereas, like basic white people, what do you got?
[69:14]
Gavin Matz
Nothing.
[69:15]
Marc Maron
So. So that's what your show's gonna be about.
[69:17]
Gavin Matz
Yeah. You know, I always joke, I say we. I almost had community. You know, if Genghis Khan had.
[69:23]
Peter Weller
Had.
[69:23]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[69:23]
Gavin Matz
Made it to Europe.
[69:24]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[69:25]
Gavin Matz
We would all have community right now.
[69:27]
Marc Maron
Sure.
[69:28]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[69:28]
Marc Maron
But it's a weird thing though, to be untethered from a sense of history or community.
[69:34]
Gavin Matz
Yeah. I mean, I think that's why you find like certain things to like be involved with. And it's like, you know, similar to like people finding that like Dungeons and Dragons and like.
[69:42]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[69:42]
Gavin Matz
People that like that. Like. I think those things exist and are important and they're like, you know.
[69:46]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[69:47]
Gavin Matz
They're like watering holes of like Culture that, like, people do need. And, like, we are losing as we get more and more isolated from the Internet and, like, them driving us apart.
[69:56]
Marc Maron
Right.
[69:57]
Gavin Matz
And like, even, like, comedy and, like, people being fans of you and going to your shows, like, I think they find, like, peace in that.
[70:03]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[70:03]
Gavin Matz
And, like, your voice brings them ease, and I think that's important.
[70:06]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[70:07]
Gavin Matz
Like, that's, like, under fascism. I'm like, you have to have those voices and people to go to and to, like, you know, speak when you are scared or.
[70:17]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[70:17]
Gavin Matz
You're worried and you need to be comforted. Like, that is so important. And it's like, all those voices, and that's why it's, like, terrible that, like, you know, to end DEI and, like, make that a villainous thing. It's because there's all these kinds of people, and they, like, need somebody. And that's what, like, representation is all about.
[70:33]
Marc Maron
Right.
[70:34]
Gavin Matz
To not understand that or push back on that and, you know, to have a platform and platform people that are against it.
[70:40]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[70:41]
Gavin Matz
When you're. You should be somebody who's bringing everybody in, and it's like, you create this, like, you know, like, Tony Hinchcliffe, like, this evil, like, making fun of people, bullying, and, like, your community is built around, like, being mean to people. It just drives me crazy, man. And I'm like, this isn't what I got into this for. It's to be associated with those people.
[71:01]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[71:02]
Gavin Matz
And, like, association is always my issue, especially in comedy now. And I'm just like, I. I want to, like, you know, support those who, like, like, care about people. And, like, that's what we should be doing. And that's, like, what someone like yourself is to me. So.
[71:17]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[71:17]
Marc Maron
Well, thanks.
[71:18]
Gavin Matz
Sorry for the rant.
[71:19]
Marc Maron
It's okay. No, and the same with Mo, too, is that, like, you know, you diminish when you silence people or marginalize them, you diminish the possibility of progress. And also just, you know, different points of view. Like, these people are so uncomfortable with people that are different than them that they resent them, and then eventually they hate them, and then they want them to shut up or be gone. And then, like, then we're at this fucking juncture. And it's weird because a lot of the people who are 75 million people didn't vote for that guy. They voted for the other person. And so they're out there, but there's such a constant assault of propaganda that, like, they're, like, to silence somebody, they. It happens within them.
[72:08]
Gavin Matz
I just don't know why you can't, like more than one thing, dude.
[72:13]
Marc Maron
They. They're just, you know what I'm saying, though, they're threatened. You know, it really comes down to, you know, white people feeling like they're not going to be in charge anymore or there's. They're going to be a minority.
[72:25]
Gavin Matz
Yeah, it's.
[72:27]
Marc Maron
It's so up. But like, I appreciate what you're saying that there is something about entertaining the people that are like minded, you know, like, I'm not like, fundamentally a leader of any kind. I'm not going to go out there and try to start a march necessarily. No, but I. I think I can.
[72:45]
Gavin Matz
But you would be at one if you were invited and you believed in it.
[72:48]
Marc Maron
Sure.
[72:48]
Gavin Matz
Yeah.
[72:49]
Marc Maron
But there is this idea that, like, even in hopelessness that, you know, I think I. I guess I do this instinctively, but I'm trying to be more aware of it, that there is a need for a release or to have that sense of like minded people around you. Like, I. It's really weird because in the first Trump administration, I felt like, you know, I do these shows and I'd be like, well, this is a safe space. We can talk here, you know?
[73:12]
Gavin Matz
Yeah, I remember this. I remember. I. It was just like, it was like, funny. It's not really anymore. It's not. No, it was funny. I always think that, though, it's like, you know, going back to when, like, you know, when it was like I was maybe like the worst person in the room, you know?
[73:34]
Marc Maron
Yeah, sure.
[73:35]
Gavin Matz
You know, like. And that's so. I'm so far removed from like being a dick to anyone.
[73:40]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[73:41]
Gavin Matz
You know what I mean? But what a pleasant time that was.
[73:43]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah, yeah.
[73:44]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Well, it's good talking to you, buddy.
[73:47]
Gavin Matz
Yeah, thanks for having me.
[73:48]
Marc Maron
Yeah, man. There you go. Gavin Matz. He's in season four of Hacks, which is now streaming on Max. And also his comedy special progression is available on YouTube. Hang out for a minute. Hey, people, if you liked Monday's episode with Peter Weller, there's an extra 20 minutes of me and Peter available exclusively for full Marin subscribers.
[74:18]
Peter Weller
You know, as long as governments tilt. This is his quote. Tilt quixotically to the top of the pyramid to solve a narcotics problem. You know, they're lost because the bottom of the pyramid, the junkie on the street, is the thing that must be handled.
[74:34]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[74:35]
Marc Maron
Interesting.
[74:36]
Peter Weller
How many people you're gonna bust? How many people are you gonna bust? How many people are you gonna bust? Fine. You're just taking, you know, chips off the top of the pyramid. Who cares?
[74:43]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[74:43]
Marc Maron
And using, using that as a cudgel to take more power. I mean, even now with fentanyl, the idea, like the idea we're going to close these, that the big problem with Canada is that there's fentanyl coming in. There's like 10 guys ever bringing fentanyl over. But it's a port, you know, it's a port of, it's a place of entry for Trump to have a conversation about taking over Canada.
[75:04]
Peter Weller
Yeah, it is.
[75:04]
Ally Makofsky
Yeah.
[75:05]
Peter Weller
But it's leverage.
[75:07]
Marc Maron
Leverage, that's the word. To get that Peter Weller bonus episode along with all the bonus episodes we do twice a week, sign up for the full marin just go to the link in the episode description or go to wtfpod.com and click on WTF Plus. And remember before we go, this podcast is hosted by Acast Guitar Time, SA Boomer lives monkey and La Fonda cat Angel everywhere.