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- [00:01]
Marc Maron
This episode is supported by Neon's new film, the Life of Chuck, which I watched. And after the first section, I was like, oh, my God, what am I gonna do with that? And then all of a sudden, these strands. He intertwines bleakness with a celebration of human life in a way that I couldn't have ever imagined. And I guess it's based on a Stephen King story. And the film stars Tom Hiddleston, Mark Hamill, and Karen Gillan. The Life of Chuck is now playing in select theaters and opens everywhere June 13th. And I gotta be honest with you, it's just kind of a mind blowing film. This beautiful celebration of what it really means to be alive. I would see it.
- [00:46]
Mike Birbiglia
Lock the gate.
- [00:56]
Marc Maron
All right, let's do this. How are you? What the fuckers? What the fuck, buddies? What the fuck? Nicks? What's happening? I'm Marc Maron. This is my podcast. Wtf. Welcome to it. If you're just getting on board here, welcome. I know some people are curious. They've been reading about it. It's sort of still amazing to me, but not really just how we all create our own little bubbles. And I know for a fact that most people don't know who I am, most people in the world. But that's okay. It's really okay. I'd rather be a little below the radar. I like to just cruise at my own altitude and, you know, I don't want to be something everybody looks up in the sky and says, oh, shit, look at that thing. Now I just kind of want to zip by my own lane, my own frequency and my own altitude and. And live the life. But if you are just checking in for the first time, welcome. You've got a lot of catching up to. Only about 1600 and. And. And change episodes, but they're all pretty good. I can vouch for them because I was there when they happened. I hope you're well. I hope that thing cleared up and I hope that, you know, everything was okay with that meeting you had. And I also hope that you don't hurt yourself because you're. You're not paying attention to the road right now. Wake up. Hey. Hey. Don't ride the brake. I was in a car the other day and the guy was riding the brake. There is nothing I cannot stand more than that. It makes me furious. I'm sure there's deeper issues that are probably being brought up, but the riding the brake thing, I can't take it. I don't know how to ride the brake in anything. Well, that's not true. Maybe not ride the brake, but I'll hang out in a lower gear sometimes. So, look, you guys, I know a lot of you are watching and reading and hearing and freaking out about what is really martial law here in some parts of the Los Angeles area. This is an authoritarian shit show of a political theater put on by our sociopathic huckster, clown King, to kind of flex his dick and show us what the future holds. But it is happening. But I do want you to know that even people that know better, that when it's sort of, you know, presented as the. The state of California is burning. The state of California is in chaos. The state of California is crumbling. Just know that the state of California is fucking huge. I mean, is it. What is it? Is it the biggest state or is Texas, Is it the second biggest state? I mean, there is shit going down, and it's horrible shit. There are peaceful protests that have been instigated into something maybe more than that by the Marine presence, by the National Guard presence. The cops here were doing fine. But I'm telling you, this is a flex. And this is the country we were living in now. And anybody who watches this shit, that watches this horrible reality of innocent people being ripped out of their homes with no due process and taken away and watches clips of that and thinks, yeah, this is the way America should be, you're a shitty person. You're just a shitty person. And there's a lot more shitty people than I ever imagined. You know, I used to think people were fundamentally or innately decent or cared about other people. But something's broken the brains of many. There's a mania, there's a doubling down. There's a honoring one's worst and most primitive instincts in relation to other human beings. There's a loss of decency, a loss of tolerance, a loss of basic love and respect. And it's just being fanned. These flames are being fanned. And this is the shit show we live in. Grateful to the people that stood up and got out there and tried to have a peaceful protest like we're allowed to do, to speak our minds and show what we believe in as Americans. And it takes a tremendous amount of courage to do that. But I just want you to know that not unlike most other states, probably all other states, California is a huge place with lots of different kinds of people in it. Lots of good people, lots of iffy people, lots of shitty people, lots of people that are struggling, but it's massive. And this idea of that this state is Crumbling, because that's how it's being contextualized or presented to you on your phone or in the clips you're watching is not true. There are people standing up. There are people out in the streets. There are people engaging in their democratic right to a peaceful protest. There are people like me talking on microphones, and there are people just kind of, you know, herding horses and, you know, doing some farming and. And, you know, trying to have a life. But I. I don't. I don't think you should be blind to it, but just know that this is political theater on behalf of an authoritarian government in what's becoming more and more a fascist culture in order to terrify and frighten the average person. And it's probably working. That said, so I got Mike Birbiglia on the show. And look, I go way back with this guy, and I've. I've talked about our history together on episode 94. Then he was on again for episode 300 when he was the interviewer of me. I was in his film Sleepwalk with Me. He's also the director of Don't Think Twice. He's had four Netflix specials, including his latest called the Good Life. And silly problems between me and him, they're not even problems. They're just feelings persist, mostly in me. And look, I know it's me, and it's one of these weird kind of things I have to deconstruct and live in and figure out why these feelings exist and what I need to act on. Probably none. And, you know, why I have this thing with him, I don't know. But he keeps coming back, folks. He keeps coming back because, you know, I think on some level, we like each other. On another level, he's got a special coming out. So. So when we get. When we get to it, we. We get on it. You know what I mean? We get into it a bit, but it's. I would say it's better than it has been in the past. The documentary Are We Good? Is screening at the Tribeca Film Festival in New York City. Come see it this Saturday, June 14th at 5pm that's at the Okx Theater on Chamber Street. I'll be doing a Q and A with Tracy Letts after the screening. Then Sunday, June 15th at 5:30pm It's a screening at the Village east on 2nd Avenue and 12th Street. Also, there are now four episodes of Stick on Apple TV. Plus new episodes premiere every Wednesday. I gotta watch that new one. I'm watching them as they happen with you. It's a good show. Me and Owen are. I think we're doing a good. Everyone in the cast is doing a great job. A great job. So, look, it's time to take home security seriously, okay? I have home security because I want my place to be safe whether I'm home or not. And we've recommended Simplisafe for almost a decade as home security you can trust. From the start, we liked SimpliSafe because it was easy to set up and the representatives were great to deal with. But since then, SimpliSafe has only gotten better. The current system has Simplisafe active guard outdoor protection, which prevents crime before it happens, stop break ins, package theft and vandalism with live monitoring agents who can see, speak to and deter suspicious individuals outside your home before they can do anything. Get away from the box right now. WTF listeners can get the same peace of mind we get by using Simplisafe. And we wanted to make sure you get the best deal possible. 50% off. A new SimpliSafe system with professional monitoring. And the first month is free. Go to SimpliSafe.com WTF that's SimpliSafe.com WTF for 50% off. And the first month is free. There's no safe like Simplisafe. So look, I do want to bring to your attention something to an article that came out sort of. It's an epic article. It's on defector. Defector.com and the article is called There Will Never Be Another WTF with Marc Maron. It's by a woman named Diana Moskowitz. And it's a beautiful, beautiful article. And look, I'm not tooting my own horn, but you know, when you read about yourself and your, your achievements and what you do, like me and Brendan and, and you know, there is insights there that I couldn't have because I barely know. You know how many people listen to this? I don't check numbers. I don't know. I just do these talks and, you know, I'll look at social media sometimes, but I'm never. It's been years and years since I've worried about who's taking it in or what they think about it necessarily. But this woman has had a long relationship with this show and she's a great writer and her assessment of it and her experience with it was just beautiful. I got choked up at the end and she really got something, and it's something. There's a whole section in this piece that I wouldn't have never really thought of about whatever it is I do in my monologues. My particular tone, my particular sense of myself, but more than that, my particular position or emotional disposition as a man in a society where men are thought of in a certain way. And much of that is toxic and much of it is predictable. But she was able to really kind of oddly compare my emotional output and how I handle my tone on this show as fundamentally the domain of women writers and presenters in terms of what I talk about and how open I am about my particular problems or vulnerabilities or cats or whatever. And I was very moved by that. Not insulted or felt it was off. It made perfect sense. Yes, I do all I can to be a good woman. I got a serious yin and yang thing going on there. But both the yin and the yang is in terms of male, female are pretty well represented. But she also took in, you know, the way she framed, you know, her favorite interviews, which were, you know, outliers or ones that I don't hear much with. Sir Ian McKellen and Sir Patrick Stewart and why she liked them and how they represented the show. And also just sort of assessing my relationship with Brendan, who has been my production partner and business partner from day one in a very equal relationship. 50, 50 all the way down the line. And it's always been our. Our game. It's always been our thing. We've never sold it out. You know, we've done ads, but we've always maintained control and this is the only thing we do. And the way she framed it is being not unlike a. A punk rock band who you love but, you know, eventually will will not be a band anymore. Was kind of beautiful and very touching. I recommend that you read this thing. Not because, again, that I'm tooting my own horn, but I thought it was a. A kind of brilliant and deep and personal and honest and on the money assessment of what Brendan and I have done here over the last 16 years. Look, if you're looking to buy or rent a place to live or you just want to have fun scrolling through dream homes, you should start using the Redfin app. Whether it's for fun or for your next place to live, search all the homes for sale and apartments for rent in your neighborhood. You'll find it all in one place where, without having to go onto other apps, you can filter for price, beds, baths, square footage, and so much more. And if you find a place you love, Redfin makes it easy to see it in person. Just schedule a tour right from the app. Plus, if you're looking to sell. Redfin agents know how to get you the best price possible for your home. That's because they close twice as many deals as other agents. And with a listing fee as low as 1%, Redfin's fees are half of what others often charge, which means you'll have more money to put towards words your next home. So whether you're looking to buy, rent, or sell, Redfin's got you covered. Download the Redfin app to get started. Okay, you can do that. You can do it. Okay, so look. Yeah. Again, as we move through these last few months, not a eulogy, an appreciation of you, an appreciation of the appreciation. And also just my life cats are. Okay, a little nervous. They seem to know too much when I'm preparing to travel. So, look, Mike Birbiglia is here. I think we had a relatively pleasant interaction. We, you know, we got past whatever dumb stuff I have maintained in terms of tension between us and got to talk about jokes and his new special and about life and death. It was good. His new Netflix special, the Good Life, is streaming now. And this is me talking to Mike. Yeah, the. The notion of having to be aware of a bit and. And how it can be disassembled and re. Yeah.
- [15:04]
Mike Birbiglia
You were considering you're cutting a bit from your special. You're shooting.
- [15:08]
Marc Maron
Well, yeah, it wasn't supposed to be in there. I'd made the decision not to do it because it was always provocative and it's a difficult situation and what ultimately. And then we shot it after the second show just to have it. And, you know, I talked to Brendan, I talked to my director, and I talked to my girlfriend just about the. It's not so much. There's no cowardice in not doing it. All that I'm saving myself from is the bit being cut up and then me being trolled for the rest of my life.
- [15:40]
Mike Birbiglia
No, that's what. Whenever people ask me, can you not say anything anymore? Which is a real trope now. It's like you can't say anymore. Okay. You have to have an answer for that. You can. Except people can cut it up into a 10 second version, a three second version, a 60 second version. And so then it's completely out of your hands.
- [16:00]
Marc Maron
That's right.
- [16:00]
Mike Birbiglia
Then like, you're saying people can use it against you for the rest of the time. So then when you're releasing a comedy special, you gotta go like, okay, how could they use this?
- [16:07]
Marc Maron
But, like, do you like, you like. I know exactly what my concern is because it's political. But like, for you, what would an example of thinking, I have that joke.
- [16:18]
Mike Birbiglia
In this special, you know, basically eight year olds are insufferable. When I spend time with my daughter, I really think, like, this makes me really not understand pedophilia.
- [16:30]
Marc Maron
Yeah, that's a, that's a tricky joke.
- [16:32]
Mike Birbiglia
It's a tricky joke, but it's like a good joke.
- [16:34]
Marc Maron
Sure.
- [16:34]
Mike Birbiglia
You know what I mean? Like, I'm like, no, no, I stand behind this joke. This is a, this is a provocative, insane joke. But I'm on the right side of it.
- [16:43]
Marc Maron
Sure. Well, that's the thing is that, you know, if you, especially if you've been doing it as long as we have and you work on these jokes and you know, when you're doing the jokes that, like, this is, this is a button pusher in a way. It's not even a button pusher. What it is, it's a take on something that, that puts you in the center of it and then people have to kind of go through the shocking element of it.
- [17:07]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah. And that's actually the fun of the song special is like, I, like, I have a joke about my dad. I go, this joke, my dad had a stroke. It's been devastating. But I will say it has calmed him down.
- [17:18]
Marc Maron
And it's like, yeah, I used to do stuff about my dad, his manic depression and dementia. Like, he's not depressed anymore, right?
- [17:25]
Mike Birbiglia
No, no, it's crazy. I just heard you on the phone with your dad. It's actually very sweet. Like, you say I love you. I've never had that.
- [17:32]
Marc Maron
Oh, really?
- [17:33]
Mike Birbiglia
We don't say I love you, we say take care.
- [17:35]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah, no, you know, they get, they soften up. And my dad was always. They would say I love you, but I didn't believe it.
- [17:43]
Mike Birbiglia
Right.
- [17:44]
Marc Maron
So, but, but in terms of those jokes is that, that is the great thrill of doing a dark joke is that like you manage to transcend the darkness. I mean, that is the trick of the whole thing is you have this horrendous thing at the core of it and then you can lift it up to, to. And it's not even shed light on it, but to disarm it through comedy. Right.
- [18:07]
Mike Birbiglia
That's the thing. Yeah. And that's the thing. I was like, we should talk about that because bleak to dark does that and good lights work. Yeah, it takes work.
- [18:15]
Marc Maron
It's a lot of work because you have to, you have to find the tone.
- [18:19]
Mike Birbiglia
It's so hard.
- [18:21]
Marc Maron
It's through repetition and getting comfortable with it. Yourself. And then like, it really. It's different. It's interesting because, you know, you craft jokes, you know, I think we're similar in how we go about putting stuff together. I think you were actually the person that made me do callbacks and it was driven by resentment and.
- [18:40]
Mike Birbiglia
Perfect.
- [18:42]
Marc Maron
Cause it's true, though. I don't know, I never told you that. Like, I watched one of your older specials. It was probably before. It was probably before more or later or something. And I saw the way you structured them. And at that point I wasn't really looking for through lines and there wasn't really a thread connecting them together. And then I watched you and I'm like, oh, it's a trick. It's callbacks. I can fucking do that. And out of spite, you move me forward creatively. I appreciate it.
- [19:09]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah, it's like, I don't think of it as callbacks. I think of it as. As forward momentum. So in other words, like instead of and then, and then, and then it's so then, so then, so then. So that you have to. Sometimes you have to remind people, oh, yeah, that was. That was my girlfriend in college. You know what I mean? So it's a callback technically, in stand up comedy terms, but actually you're reminding them of the story that you're in.
- [19:33]
Marc Maron
Yeah, but. But the thing that it, the illusion it creates is a story and that that threads the whole thing together. But this, your special, your new one is basically a story.
- [19:44]
Mike Birbiglia
It's a story.
- [19:45]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Yeah. But like, when you don't necessarily have a through line for the whole set, if you can drop a reference to an earlier bit later on, there's a connection that kind of holds the whole thing together.
- [19:58]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah.
- [19:59]
Marc Maron
It's an illusion, though, because it's not a story, but it's just sort of like, oh, I remember that from the other joke. Sure. Yeah. And I try to find them all the time now.
- [20:07]
Mike Birbiglia
That's cool.
- [20:08]
Marc Maron
But the thrill.
- [20:09]
Mike Birbiglia
I'm glad I've taught you about comedy.
- [20:11]
Marc Maron
Yeah, I appreciate it. Well, I mean, I've never denied your abilities.
- [20:15]
Mike Birbiglia
That's nice. I've never denied your abilities.
- [20:21]
Marc Maron
Yeah, you can use that as a blurb. I'm really good at blurbs. I tried to be so diplomatic with Nick Crow about his new movie that he kept saying, that's a good tag. What is it?
- [20:31]
Mike Birbiglia
Blurb for it.
- [20:31]
Marc Maron
Yeah. And they were all kind of horrible. It feels complete.
- [20:36]
Mike Birbiglia
Oh, my gosh.
- [20:37]
Marc Maron
That kind of stuff.
- [20:38]
Mike Birbiglia
Wow. But yeah, it's interesting. Like, yeah, you're the thing we're talking about. Of like turning something sad, like you did with Lynn into something funny. I think that's the job. I actually think that's the job of being a comic is. Is you make people laugh. Making people laugh is baseline, right?
- [20:56]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [20:56]
Mike Birbiglia
Making people laugh at something they're sad about, that's. That's the real stuff.
- [21:00]
Marc Maron
Well, it's essential or. Or angry about or whatever. Like, I think. I think on one, for me, comedy look at things differently. I think that's another thing outside the sadness is to sort of like turn the lens. Like, I never thought about it like that.
- [21:16]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah.
- [21:17]
Marc Maron
But the elevation to actually provide some sort of humanity and relief to things that are really not discussed. Like, I think the whole like, you know, approaching grief, which is something everybody deals with. Nobody likes to talk about it and nobody wants it in their life, but it's an inevitable. Right. It's going to happen.
- [21:38]
Mike Birbiglia
Sure.
- [21:39]
Marc Maron
So to get into that zone and to disarm it and to open up a conversation about it I think is definitely proactive and it's good and it should be a purpose of comedy. I think that like, Prior used to do that, like in the sense of, you know, talking about volunteering your insane life.
- [21:57]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah, that's right.
- [21:58]
Marc Maron
And struggle, you know, to. To put it out for the world. Because like, whatever he did about race, his personal upbringing was fucking nuts.
- [22:07]
Mike Birbiglia
Horrible.
- [22:08]
Marc Maron
Yeah, but like.
- [22:09]
Mike Birbiglia
But he grew up in a brothel.
- [22:10]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, but all the things he got out of it were amazing. It's a. It's the determination of the human spirit. It's important.
- [22:18]
Mike Birbiglia
Agree, agree.
- [22:20]
Marc Maron
But. But the whole not being able to say anything, it's interesting because I feel that, like what. What I talked about on some interview with politics is that people are going to self center that the power of terror and propaganda, you know, makes people afraid to talk.
- [22:41]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah, that's true.
- [22:42]
Marc Maron
Yeah. So I think that's the bigger concern of a certain type of thinking that is more dangerous. And like, you can't say that if you're saying that to yourself. That to me is the real threat.
- [22:56]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah. And that's out there, Turtle.
- [22:58]
Marc Maron
Totally.
- [22:58]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah.
- [22:58]
Marc Maron
Yeah. With your fucking neighbors, people at work, you know, they can't even talk about the world because they don't know if it's like they're gonna open up some fucking shitbox of anger on someone in their life.
- [23:11]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah.
- [23:13]
Marc Maron
But with this special. And to. Like I was gonna tell you, I had this realization about, you know, some. Some of our attention that's all driven by Me. Is that for. For me, have it with a couple other people. Is that, like. I think I'm a pretty decent guy with people, but if somebody, like, annoys me for whatever reason, it's not their problem. Eventually I. I get. I get stuck in something, and then I'll get. You know, I'll say some shitty stuff. But I realized that I was talking because I want to make a joke out of it, that if you're that kind of person where you kind of blow up at somebody or say something hurtful, as soon as you do that with me, I'm like, oh, what a right. Would I do that?
- [23:52]
Mike Birbiglia
Right.
- [23:52]
Marc Maron
And then for me, it's over. But whatever you've done to the other person, who knows how long that'll go?
- [23:58]
Mike Birbiglia
Oh, of course.
- [23:58]
Marc Maron
So there's that idea that, like, you know, I'm a pretty good guy, but sometimes I blow up, but. But right after, I'm fine, you know. You know, as long as I hurt your feelings for a second, and then I can. I'm good.
- [24:09]
Mike Birbiglia
That's like. That's like my dad, but I think that's like, you're a little bit like my dad. Like, it's a. But isn't that rageaholic behavior?
- [24:16]
Marc Maron
I used to rage, and it's. It's more precise than that. I think what happens is, for me is I feel like that I have a justified problem with somebody. So I guess it's ragehog in the sense that, like. Well, yeah, but you can choose not to act on it or don't deal with that person.
- [24:37]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah. Yeah.
- [24:38]
Marc Maron
You know, it's not your job to dump your problems with, like, what are they going to do? Like, let me fix that for you.
- [24:44]
Mike Birbiglia
Right.
- [24:45]
Marc Maron
You know, that's an unreasonable expectation.
- [24:48]
Mike Birbiglia
That's right.
- [24:49]
Marc Maron
I think it's. It's. It has to do with anger and insecurity, but rage is rage.
- [24:53]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah. It's funny. Like, you know, I Like my last special, the Old man in the Pool. The ending of it is this thing where I talk a lot about how my dad and I never said I love you.
- [25:05]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [25:05]
Mike Birbiglia
And I've never said I love you. I think never. I think, actually.
- [25:10]
Marc Maron
And that's crazy.
- [25:11]
Mike Birbiglia
At the end. The end of the special, I go. Because the special is all about death and. And all this thematically about death. And at the end of it, I go, what I want to say to my parents. And then it cuts to black.
- [25:20]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [25:21]
Mike Birbiglia
You know, which is what happens. We don't choose. We don't choose that our life is in the first act or the second act or the third act. It just ends when it ends.
- [25:27]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [25:28]
Mike Birbiglia
And, like, I feel like that was true, you know, with Lynn Shelton, where it's like. Where it's like she died. I love Lynn Shelton. You know, I considered her a friend, and she. I was in one of her movies.
- [25:39]
Marc Maron
Yeah, she loved you.
- [25:40]
Mike Birbiglia
She was one of the great people.
- [25:41]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [25:41]
Mike Birbiglia
And. And, like, you don't. You don't think she's gonna. Fuck. What the fuck? Like, when I heard she died, like, you can't believe it. And it's like. And then you think back, like, oh, what was my last interaction with her? My last interaction was. She did a movie with you. She asked me to host the Q and A. And you said, mark doesn't like me. I don't want to do it. I would do anything for you, Lynn, but Mark doesn't like me. I don't want. It just feels toxic. We're. You know, in hindsight, I should have just gone. Lin wants this. I love Lin. I'm gonna put this behind me.
- [26:12]
Marc Maron
I love when I know how to deal with Mark.
- [26:18]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah. So anyway, but that's the thing is, like, you know, whenever, you know, you've expressed resentment towards me or for whatever reason that it doesn't really make sense to me, but it's.
- [26:31]
Marc Maron
But I want to put it to rest, and I try to put it to rest. And I've spent my whole life in relationship with you trying to put it to rest. And when we do hang out and it's perfectly fine, we're, you know, we're both, you know, real comics, and we talk about real stuff and everything is good. I really think it's really just petty. It started in petty jealousy, and then it just becomes. There's just. There's certain people that, you know, I completely think you're a great comic, and I think you're a nice guy, but there's just certain things about. Like, I can name all three of them, the people.
- [27:08]
Mike Birbiglia
Well, I know you have it with Jon Stewart.
- [27:09]
Marc Maron
Well, that's different.
- [27:11]
Mike Birbiglia
Okay.
- [27:11]
Marc Maron
No, it would be. It's probably you and Pete.
- [27:15]
Mike Birbiglia
Pete Holmes, who I love.
- [27:17]
Marc Maron
Right. And probably, you know, Edelman's on the list, so that he's a new entry. Yeah, well. Yeah, well, see, like, I could argue, but. Okay, but what my vibe, what my feelings are. Because I'm sort of a volatile, like, emotional, you know, rageaholic. I'm not Rage. I'm not.
- [27:38]
Mike Birbiglia
You're dispelling that.
- [27:40]
Marc Maron
No, only because I know what that looks like. With me, I know I have been an abusive, angry person.
- [27:45]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah.
- [27:46]
Marc Maron
I think with.
- [27:46]
Mike Birbiglia
You feel like that's behind you, the.
- [27:48]
Marc Maron
Abusive and raging part. Yes, yes. Yeah. And one of the ways that I do that is if I can't manage those kind of emotions, I will detach from the person. I know it's my problem, but, you know, I don't have to have the certain people in my life.
- [28:05]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah.
- [28:05]
Marc Maron
I don't think I rage at you. I don't rage at my girlfriend. I don't really rage anymore. You know, it's just there's certain things that trigger a certain resentment in me and I'll. And I'll get mean for a few minutes, but I'm not, you know, I'm not gonna. Like, I used to scream, oh, wow. So there's no, there's none of that.
- [28:25]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah.
- [28:25]
Marc Maron
So if I'm. If you're putting me on the spectrum of rageaholic, I. I'm very, like, I'm way right just at the low end. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [28:34]
Mike Birbiglia
I get that.
- [28:36]
Marc Maron
But in terms of, like, you know, stepping up and doing things and. And doing things with Lynn and making those moments, having regrets about the moment. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [28:47]
Mike Birbiglia
It. It actually hearkened to, like, something, I don't know, I've been working on on myself in the last 10 years, which is like, you know, just realizing, like. Oh, yeah, it could just go away.
- [28:56]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [28:56]
Mike Birbiglia
Like, it can. You can just die at any moment.
- [28:58]
Marc Maron
How old are you?
- [28:59]
Mike Birbiglia
46.
- [29:00]
Marc Maron
Yeah, like, I'm 61.
- [29:01]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah.
- [29:02]
Marc Maron
I think about it all the time.
- [29:04]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah.
- [29:04]
Marc Maron
And then there's the other thing that I conflict with is it could go at any time. And then there's the other part of it, which is maybe at my hand.
- [29:11]
Mike Birbiglia
Oh, my God. That's a funny joke you have in your blink to dark. Or that you're not going to kill yourself with a bat. Yeah, yeah.
- [29:18]
Marc Maron
It took so long to orchestrate that bit, to figure out the physicality of it and how many times I should hit myself in the head. That was one of the proudest. That was one of the great moments, you know, when a joke comes to you and you're like, oh, my God. Oh, yeah, that line. You never. You're not gonna look at a bat and think, I'm gonna kill myself.
- [29:36]
Mike Birbiglia
Totally. I had that with. It's funny with this special. People have said that to me about my urban air bit.
- [29:43]
Marc Maron
Oh, yeah. I wish I knew more about that place.
- [29:45]
Mike Birbiglia
Oh, okay. Like trampoline parks and how they're so fucking dangerous. And crazy. And I've had a bunch of comics be like, I can't believe you got to that first.
- [29:54]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [29:54]
Mike Birbiglia
Like, you know what I mean? You hit something and you go like, wait, no one's done this great. No one's touched trampoline parks for kids.
- [30:01]
Marc Maron
Fantastic research.
- [30:02]
Mike Birbiglia
Oh, yeah, I did research.
- [30:04]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [30:04]
Mike Birbiglia
Well, I mean, I done. I've been to so many of these birthday parties, so I'd been there multiple times.
- [30:09]
Marc Maron
Well, you realize that the pool of comments is going to be dads who talk about their kids.
- [30:13]
Mike Birbiglia
That's right.
- [30:14]
Marc Maron
So that limits it.
- [30:15]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah, that limits it.
- [30:16]
Marc Maron
Yeah. No, I can't stand that. I had an issue with. I told him I wouldn't talk about. But I. You know, now that we're talking about anger, I got. I got angry yesterday at someone we both know for very specific reason. And the. The issue with jokes being out there forever.
- [30:34]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah.
- [30:34]
Marc Maron
On your Instagram and everywhere else, is that there are people that don't know that they've glommed it.
- [30:40]
Mike Birbiglia
Right. Sure.
- [30:41]
Marc Maron
And it's just out there. And now there's a whole generation of comics that watched me when they were kids.
- [30:46]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah.
- [30:47]
Marc Maron
And so all of a sudden, I see one of my jokes surface, partially or all of it, and I have to be like, well, you know, you own. That's your joke, but you haven't done it in 15 years.
- [30:59]
Mike Birbiglia
Right.
- [30:59]
Marc Maron
But now this guy's doing it. So what. What do I do? What do you do?
- [31:04]
Mike Birbiglia
You know, if I had someone come up to me at the seller recently, and they're like, oh, I'm a huge fan. You know, they're a comic.
- [31:09]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [31:10]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah. I came up on your stuff from whatever, and then I looked on their Instagram and I saw like, one of my jokes.
- [31:16]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [31:17]
Mike Birbiglia
It was like one of my early jokes, and it was almost word for word, and I said to my wife, Jenny, I go, like, that's the flow of this whole thing. At a certain point, you become the person who people came up on.
- [31:34]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [31:34]
Mike Birbiglia
And even I don't. I'm not saying that guy stole a joke, but it's in there. It's in the brain.
- [31:38]
Marc Maron
But that's it. But like, so, like, how do you. It's not even the act of forgiving that. And we understand it. Cause I've seen it over and over again, of course. And there are some. There are some areas of observation that are pretty commonplace.
- [31:51]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah.
- [31:52]
Marc Maron
And it's like. But if you have a unique twist on it that you know is yours.
- [31:58]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah.
- [31:59]
Marc Maron
But some jokes are like, you Know, there are some things you talk about, and that's one of the reasons why I decided to talk about myself exclusively, is that no one can take that. Like, if you're looking at the world, then you're at risk.
- [32:10]
Mike Birbiglia
That's what Lucian Hold. That's what Lucian hold might be. You know, who used to run the comic strip taught me.
- [32:15]
Marc Maron
Oh, really?
- [32:15]
Mike Birbiglia
He was one of the first people I was, like, probably in my early 20s. And he. I was talking, doing observational comedy about The Teletubbies.
- [32:24]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [32:24]
Mike Birbiglia
Mr. T and A Team.
- [32:26]
Marc Maron
Also the big topic.
- [32:28]
Mike Birbiglia
And then he goes. He goes, if you talk about yourself, no one can steal your jokes.
- [32:33]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [32:33]
Mike Birbiglia
And I started talking about myself.
- [32:35]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [32:36]
Mike Birbiglia
He's a great piece of advice.
- [32:37]
Marc Maron
The best. Yeah.
- [32:38]
Mike Birbiglia
I don't really have.
- [32:39]
Marc Maron
But then, you know what happens when you get older and you do a few special. So you tap yourself out. You're like, the well. All of a sudden, the well's all filled up.
- [32:46]
Mike Birbiglia
Well, Sedera said that on my podcast. He goes. You go, you. You. At. When you're starting writing, you have the most stories because you have your whole life, but you're not that good at telling stories.
- [32:58]
Marc Maron
Right.
- [32:59]
Mike Birbiglia
So then as you go, as your life goes on, you have less stories, but you're way better at telling the story.
- [33:04]
Marc Maron
Sure. Oh, that's interesting.
- [33:05]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah.
- [33:06]
Marc Maron
But do you find, like, how'd you handle that? That guy doing your joke?
- [33:10]
Mike Birbiglia
I was actually fine with it. I was so weird.
- [33:13]
Marc Maron
Nothing.
- [33:14]
Mike Birbiglia
I didn't do nothing. No, I didn't do anything. No, I don't.
- [33:18]
Marc Maron
I.
- [33:19]
Mike Birbiglia
To me, it's like, I don't think of it as things are for things. For me, I'm like, this is great. I'm doing great.
- [33:30]
Marc Maron
Okay.
- [33:31]
Mike Birbiglia
In. Not in life. In comedy.
- [33:34]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [33:34]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah. I mean, like, I have the struggles that everyone has of being alive. But your stories. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I. But my comedy, it's like, I. I write these shows. They're really specific.
- [33:47]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [33:48]
Mike Birbiglia
And people show up live to see them, and then I'm able to make comedy specials from them. That's amazing.
- [33:53]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [33:53]
Mike Birbiglia
Like, what else could you want? You're grateful. I'm grateful.
- [33:57]
Marc Maron
That's good.
- [33:57]
Mike Birbiglia
So I don't want to see someone crib a joke. Or maybe they don't realize they crib a joke. I go, yeah.
- [34:01]
Marc Maron
Well, I get. Here's what happened in the two cases for me is someone brought it to my attention that there was this kid doing a joke I did literally in 1989 that's really funny. And, you know, it's out there, you know, and this kid, you know, maybe he could have seen it when I was. When he was a kid. I don't know. And it was the same setup. And I. You know, someone sent me a clip of him doing it from Instagram, so I DMed him. I said, look, I did that joke, but I don't care. But I'm just telling you because it might be brought to your attention. So, like, if someone's gonna be like, yeah, it's a Marc Maron joke or whatever that might happen, but I'm okay with it.
- [34:42]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah. That's nice.
- [34:43]
Marc Maron
Yeah. So I think I handled that well. Yeah. But the other thing yesterday, I did not handle well, and it was sort of the same thing. But, you know, if somebody has a pattern of taking jokes from different people, that becomes a more difficult situation.
- [35:03]
Mike Birbiglia
It's funny. Like, I remember when you had Robin Williams on years ago, and that was a great conversation.
- [35:08]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [35:09]
Mike Birbiglia
And you talked to him about it.
- [35:10]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [35:10]
Mike Birbiglia
And it was very clear that he had not, in my opinion, that he had not intended to lift jokes, but that he, in some ways, was a sponge of.
- [35:22]
Marc Maron
I saw it. How it happened.
- [35:23]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah.
- [35:24]
Marc Maron
Because I. I did it. He saw me at the Throckmorton once, and I did this bit. It was a big bit about the. The demon. You know, the sober demon bit. It was like, you know, it used to be like, yeah, let's go out, get some blows some. And some booze. And then it's like, how about some ice cream? You know, so. And he, you know, he came up to me after the show. He goes, ooh, that demon is. And he starts riffing right. On my premise.
- [35:48]
Mike Birbiglia
The Robin Williams version.
- [35:50]
Marc Maron
Yeah. And he's riffing on it. I'm like, that's how it happens.
- [35:52]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah. Yeah, sure.
- [35:53]
Marc Maron
That's like one step away from I. You know, it's mine.
- [35:56]
Mike Birbiglia
No, I get it.
- [35:57]
Marc Maron
Yeah. I mean, I guess there's nothing we can do about it.
- [36:00]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah. I remember one time, Mulaney, when he was writing on snl.
- [36:03]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [36:04]
Mike Birbiglia
Texted me. Hey, I. Did you ever do the Polar Bear Drinking Coca Cola as a bit on an album? Yeah, it was a tag he had written for me on tour with me, like, years before.
- [36:17]
Marc Maron
Oh, interesting.
- [36:18]
Mike Birbiglia
I was like, yeah, it's on Two Drink Mike, and it's on this special. Whatever. He's all right. Won't do it.
- [36:22]
Marc Maron
But he had written it.
- [36:23]
Mike Birbiglia
He had written it, right. So, like I said, you can use it if you want. You know what I mean? Like, I don't care but like, I do think, like, there is a degree where we're. We're doing all these brain exercises as comedians and trying to put out more and more and more stuff to figure. To figure out what's funny to us. And you do come across the same ideas, of course. Yeah.
- [36:43]
Marc Maron
Parallel thinking is real. And like, when I did this special, I had this one joke. It's a pretty much a one liner, but I had a sense that not that I took it from somebody, but that someone else was doing it might be out there. Yeah. So I was like, fuck it. And I. I didn't do it.
- [36:57]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah.
- [36:58]
Marc Maron
And. And then it's funny because rock gave me a tag for a joke that really worked well. And then I. I ended up. It was part of the joke that I took out of the special. So that's gone.
- [37:11]
Mike Birbiglia
Mulaney had a great tag in my special, the Good Life, which is. My wife is a poet, I'm a comedian. Together we're a sculptor. Such a simple joke.
- [37:21]
Marc Maron
That's a good joke.
- [37:21]
Mike Birbiglia
Isn't it great?
- [37:22]
Marc Maron
It kills and does it like when you. When someone gives you a tag and it really works well, don't you ever get that moment where you're like, fuck, why didn't I?
- [37:28]
Mike Birbiglia
Totally.
- [37:29]
Marc Maron
How is that? How is he just so good at that?
- [37:31]
Mike Birbiglia
Totally.
- [37:32]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [37:32]
Mike Birbiglia
But that's what. When. Next time you're in New York, you gotta come on Working it out, my podcast, we just work out jokes. But I think you'd like it because I think you love jokes. Well, I do work out jokes in real time.
- [37:43]
Marc Maron
Yeah, I do, but they become jokes, you know? I know When I did this special, I had a really simple everyone can love joke. It's a cat joke, and I had a tag, but it wasn't quite right. And I knew it. It worked. Good enough. It basically has two punchlines. There's the turn, and that gets the laugh. But then there's another beat there that was required to kind of close it up. And the thing I had there was, okay. But literally three days before the special, I was on stage and it was delivered to me. And that's how. That's the. The way I work. That's what makes it interesting.
- [38:20]
Mike Birbiglia
That's nice.
- [38:20]
Marc Maron
I don't know where it comes from.
- [38:21]
Mike Birbiglia
It's from the gods.
- [38:22]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [38:23]
Mike Birbiglia
That's like.
- [38:23]
Marc Maron
Most of my stuff is.
- [38:24]
Mike Birbiglia
That's like the Bob Dylan documentary Scorsese did years ago where he goes, I didn't write these songs. God wrote these songs. And it's like, it's kind of nuts through a certain lens. But there's another lens. You're like, yeah, I get it.
- [38:38]
Marc Maron
Where does it come from? I know it specifically with me, because I work through talking. I don't write it.
- [38:43]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah.
- [38:44]
Marc Maron
So. And I believe that it's like if you're a funny person and you put yourself in a position where you have to be funny.
- [38:50]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah.
- [38:51]
Marc Maron
Which is a comics job. But literally corner yourself, like, I've got a funny enough idea.
- [38:55]
Mike Birbiglia
Totally.
- [38:55]
Marc Maron
That'll get a few laughs. But I'm hoping that by doing it, it'll evolve. And where the hell does that come from?
- [39:02]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah, you're. Yeah, that's right.
- [39:04]
Marc Maron
I mean, it comes from your brain in a moment, but it didn't come from your brain sitting there going, well.
- [39:09]
Mike Birbiglia
It'S fight or flight meets jokes.
- [39:11]
Marc Maron
That's right.
- [39:12]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah.
- [39:12]
Marc Maron
Yeah. So we're doing your podcast now.
- [39:16]
Mike Birbiglia
Do you come to New York a lot?
- [39:18]
Marc Maron
I'm going to be there.
- [39:19]
Mike Birbiglia
I saw you there at the Cellar.
- [39:20]
Marc Maron
I was there to shoot the special.
- [39:21]
Mike Birbiglia
Oh, is that what it was?
- [39:23]
Marc Maron
No. You were there a couple of weeks ago.
- [39:24]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah, I saw you. And then before that, I saw you at the Cellar.
- [39:27]
Marc Maron
Yeah. And I'll be there for Tribeca in a couple weeks.
- [39:31]
Mike Birbiglia
Oh, that's cool. You're in a movie.
- [39:33]
Marc Maron
Yeah, there's a documentary about me.
- [39:34]
Mike Birbiglia
Oh, that's cool.
- [39:35]
Marc Maron
Yeah, that's all right. I mean, it's good. It's a little much from. It's a lot of me.
- [39:39]
Mike Birbiglia
It's a lot of you.
- [39:40]
Marc Maron
It's almost too much me for me. But it was talks about the Lynn and the COVID and building an act after that, and then it became more expansive.
- [39:48]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah.
- [39:49]
Marc Maron
You can come see it if you want.
- [39:51]
Mike Birbiglia
I'll come see.
- [39:51]
Marc Maron
You can do it.
- [39:53]
Mike Birbiglia
What do you mean, if I can do it?
- [39:55]
Marc Maron
Well, I don't know how much you are that interested in me.
- [39:58]
Mike Birbiglia
I am interested in you.
- [40:04]
Marc Maron
So the one thing I didn't know about watching this special, and I don't know why I didn't know it, I probably knew it because we've done. You've done this show, like, more than anybody. For a guy that doesn't get along with me or I don't get along with. But like, we grew up with Dr. Dads.
- [40:19]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah.
- [40:21]
Marc Maron
And it's a very specific, weird thing.
- [40:22]
Mike Birbiglia
Oh, it's a very specific type of dad.
- [40:24]
Marc Maron
Yeah. But my dad was similar to yours. Really?
- [40:27]
Mike Birbiglia
And Conan did, too.
- [40:28]
Marc Maron
What kind of doctor was his dad?
- [40:30]
Mike Birbiglia
You know, I not. I'm not sure. My dad's a neurot. Was a retired neurologist.
- [40:35]
Marc Maron
Yeah. That's a big one.
- [40:37]
Mike Birbiglia
It's a. It's no pun intended. It's a heady profession. It really is. Like, it's. It's a smart group of people.
- [40:43]
Marc Maron
Oh, yeah. My dad was more of the. The kind of, I guess the working class doctor in a way. He was an orthopedic surgeon. So it's like hammers and saws, screws.
- [40:54]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah, yeah.
- [40:55]
Marc Maron
We're cutting people open, chopping away.
- [40:58]
Mike Birbiglia
Totally.
- [40:59]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [40:59]
Mike Birbiglia
It's weird, like, only as I get older and I feel like you've probably had this with your dad. Although I did hear you say I love you to your dad a second ago, so that's nice. But I do feel like there is a degree of the emotional withholding is not unrelated to the job where he's compartmentalizing what is really extreme. I mean, he's dealing at work, my dad.
- [41:19]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [41:19]
Mike Birbiglia
People with Parkinson's.
- [41:21]
Marc Maron
Oh, yeah.
- [41:21]
Mike Birbiglia
People with, you know, Ms. Yeah.
- [41:23]
Marc Maron
Oh, yeah.
- [41:24]
Mike Birbiglia
Really? Brain disorders is a Hell, yeah. And so then he comes home and he's just trying to sit there and read his war novels. And meanwhile, like, I'm projecting on him that he's this mythological creature sure of. Of perfection in my life.
- [41:38]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [41:38]
Mike Birbiglia
And it's like, yeah, he's saving lives and being a good debt and. And being a good doctor. And like, you know, it's funny, people would come up to me when I was a kid, they go, your dad's a great doctor. And I go, thanks. You know, and then he'd be like, no, for real. Like, I've gone to a lot of doctors. He's a really special, you know, and it's like, I just didn't see that side of my dad. Like, it's just not what I saw.
- [41:58]
Marc Maron
Right.
- [41:59]
Mike Birbiglia
And like, I had a lot of anger about that for a lot of years. And it's. I talk about this in the special, but it was really only in the last few years where I got to understand, like, you gotta ask questions, you gotta be open to that these people are flawed, that your parents are flawed and just ask questions.
- [42:16]
Marc Maron
And also, you don't know them.
- [42:19]
Mike Birbiglia
Right. You don't know them.
- [42:20]
Marc Maron
Don't know them. I do a bit in my special about that. About, like, you don't know these people.
- [42:25]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah, totally.
- [42:26]
Marc Maron
I mean, they had whole lives before you. They had lives outside of you.
- [42:29]
Mike Birbiglia
That's right.
- [42:30]
Marc Maron
They have people in their lives. You don't fucking know them. Yeah, well, my joke about dementia, which is pretty funny, I say, like, you Know if you can let go of who they were and just sort of deal with what is. There's a lot to be gained. And I say, like, you know, the filter goes away eventually, and the statute of limitations on what they should and shouldn't tell their kid, that's gone.
- [42:53]
Mike Birbiglia
That's very funny.
- [42:54]
Marc Maron
So if you have unresolved issues or questions, just reach into that bingo cage of memories and see if you can pull out the missing piece. That'll make you a whole person.
- [43:03]
Mike Birbiglia
That's right. That's a great. That's a great one. The. You know, I talked to my mom and dad yesterday because they haven't seen the special. Special dropped. How is he on Monday? He's in rough shape. I mean, he. He's like a tank. His constitution. 84.
- [43:18]
Marc Maron
Yeah. My dad's 86.
- [43:19]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah, it's up there. And it's like he had a stroke, you know, 15 months ago. It was really extreme. He's almost died about six or seven times. You know where we took him? Like, he was at the hospital last week. Wasn't eating what, you know, was throwing up. Awful stuff. Awful. And so I was talking to them yesterday, and they haven't seen the special, you know, and. But then their neighbors started telling them, oh, we saw Mike's special, and it's beautiful. And it's a love letter, Vince, to you. And.
- [43:50]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [43:51]
Mike Birbiglia
But they're like. But it's also challenging. You know what I mean? Like, so they kind of have.
- [43:55]
Marc Maron
You're a good doctor. Right.
- [43:59]
Mike Birbiglia
My parents had a vibe of what the special. Special was yesterday when I was on the phone. And I go. I go, vince, I call my compareance. Vincent. Mj.
- [44:08]
Marc Maron
You do?
- [44:09]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah. I go, vince, I think you would. I think you'll like it. But it is challenging, you know, and it's about your. Some of it's about your stroke. And. And my dad on speakerphone goes, I don't like the personal stuff.
- [44:25]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [44:25]
Mike Birbiglia
And I go, vince, don't watch it. I go, you can't. You can't choose what your child's gift is.
- [44:32]
Marc Maron
Oh, that's interesting.
- [44:33]
Mike Birbiglia
And he goes, that's true. And he laughed. And I was like, for me, that was peace.
- [44:38]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Oh, that's good. Because my dad, you know, when I wrote about him in my book, he. Now, he gets a kick out of it. But I went to the mats with my dad. Like, I pushed him as far as he could go.
- [44:50]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah.
- [44:51]
Marc Maron
And, you know, I saw what was at the core of him, which, oddly is, fuck you, you.
- [44:56]
Mike Birbiglia
Oh, interesting. Yeah. There's a hostility.
- [44:58]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah. Or just something. And so I think that's at the core of every narcissistic personality.
- [45:03]
Mike Birbiglia
Sure.
- [45:04]
Marc Maron
Because they can't totally reveal themselves to themselves.
- [45:08]
Mike Birbiglia
Right.
- [45:08]
Marc Maron
So you're gonna. You're gonna get the. You. You know, but that's the correlation, though.
- [45:13]
Mike Birbiglia
They can't reveal themselves to themselves.
- [45:16]
Marc Maron
Well. Because I. I think they're not open.
- [45:18]
Mike Birbiglia
To themselves about who they are. Right.
- [45:19]
Marc Maron
So.
- [45:20]
Mike Birbiglia
Which is a narcissist.
- [45:21]
Marc Maron
If you push them to go there, Right. They're. They're gonna hold out.
- [45:25]
Mike Birbiglia
Right.
- [45:26]
Marc Maron
All the way to the end.
- [45:26]
Mike Birbiglia
It's gonna come at you. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [45:29]
Marc Maron
But, you know, look, you know, I. You know, I. As people get older, and I think you. I don't know if you're seeing it, because it's not necessarily in the special. Is that, you know, they. They are half your brain.
- [45:40]
Mike Birbiglia
Yes.
- [45:41]
Marc Maron
And, you know, whatever their shortcomings or flaws were, you know, that wired you.
- [45:47]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah.
- [45:48]
Marc Maron
Half of it, at least.
- [45:49]
Mike Birbiglia
For sure.
- [45:50]
Marc Maron
So at some point, you have to reckon with the good parts and the bad parts about your dad that you possess. Right. And then you have to say, like, all right, well, this. You know, these are good things from him.
- [46:02]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah.
- [46:03]
Marc Maron
And these are the bad things. And a lot of times those bad things will kind of be a struggle, and they'll take you down, and they're built to fuck you.
- [46:09]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah. Yeah.
- [46:10]
Marc Maron
I don't know if you had that same experience. Oh. But anyway, my dad, when I wrote about. In my book, he. He was furious, and it was graphic, and it was, you know. And, you know, he was, like, very angry, and. And I didn't do the same thing you did, which was more. It was a better way to phrase it. I said, well, look, it's my story, too. This is my story.
- [46:30]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah.
- [46:31]
Marc Maron
That, like, I own this story, my side of it, as much as you do, and you're part of my story now. You can choose. And I'm not sure if I'm. If I was as, you know, careful as I could have been. Out of respect.
- [46:44]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah.
- [46:45]
Marc Maron
But fundamentally, I didn't respect him at that point. So we had this fight on the phone, and I said, you know. Well, he was worried that, like, some of the stuff I said would have implications for him professionally.
- [46:54]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah.
- [46:54]
Marc Maron
And that, you know. You know, his family was mad and this or that. I'm like, what do you want? You want money?
- [47:01]
Mike Birbiglia
Sure.
- [47:01]
Marc Maron
Yeah. And he goes, yeah. And I go, how much? He goes, $100,000.
- [47:05]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah.
- [47:05]
Marc Maron
And I said, I'll give you five.
- [47:09]
Mike Birbiglia
That's good. Have you done that on stage?
- [47:11]
Marc Maron
Probably.
- [47:11]
Mike Birbiglia
That's funny.
- [47:12]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [47:13]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah, it's a good bit.
- [47:14]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Mulaney saw me do some shit about my mother that never made a special, you know, but, like. But as they get older, you know, and he softened and the love you thing, like when I told my mom and they're not together, that I think, you know, Dad's got the beginning of dementia. She said, how can you tell?
- [47:30]
Mike Birbiglia
That's funny.
- [47:30]
Marc Maron
Because he was always same. Well, he's detached.
- [47:33]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah. Yeah.
- [47:33]
Marc Maron
Like, that was always the joke.
- [47:34]
Mike Birbiglia
I get that.
- [47:36]
Marc Maron
That's what I was thinking. Like, he'd be at dinner, but he wouldn't be there.
- [47:39]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah, absolutely.
- [47:40]
Marc Maron
Yeah. And I don't. I don't know what that was. It was a joke at the table. Like, we'd be talking and he'd be like, off in space.
- [47:49]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah. My feeling about my dad was always. He was. He was. I was the youngest of four.
- [47:54]
Marc Maron
Oh. Yeah.
- [47:55]
Mike Birbiglia
And so I. And I was the oops baby. And. And so I don't think he wanted to be a dad much anymore. Like, the way my sisters describe it is like they would.
- [48:04]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [48:05]
Mike Birbiglia
Go on trips to Boston and they'd buy raincoats and.
- [48:08]
Marc Maron
Right. Right.
- [48:09]
Mike Birbiglia
They'd have a night, a day out of town. It's like I didn't get.
- [48:13]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [48:13]
Mike Birbiglia
I got nothing. Like, I was just alone. I was off. You know what they call now, like a free range kid? Like, I was just out with my friends. Yeah. Like, it's kind of. I don't know, like it was done, but at the same time, like, as I get older, I just go, like, you know, oh, my dad was a tough dad, but also, like, compared to what.
- [48:30]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [48:31]
Mike Birbiglia
He didn't beat the shit out of me.
- [48:33]
Marc Maron
Right.
- [48:33]
Mike Birbiglia
You know what I mean? Like, there's people who have a real heart, you know.
- [48:37]
Marc Maron
Sure. But. But detachment and emotional neglect is. Is, you know, not as traumatizing in events as physical abuse. But in the big picture, is. Is pretty mind fucking true. You know, Like, I. I think that the. You know, comparing trauma and the effects of it, you know, some. Some trauma is easily identified. The other stuff is a little more insidious.
- [49:03]
Mike Birbiglia
I know what you mean. I just feel like it was never sure.
- [49:06]
Marc Maron
You had money, you had good. You know, you had good. You had everything.
- [49:09]
Mike Birbiglia
Valued education.
- [49:10]
Marc Maron
Yes, yes.
- [49:11]
Mike Birbiglia
There were things like that where, you know, my dad doesn't have. You know, he'll die when he dies. Today, tomorrow, in a year.
- [49:19]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [49:20]
Mike Birbiglia
He's like, he'll die with no money. He spent all his money on educating his kids. Really? Yeah. For real? Like he always.
- [49:28]
Marc Maron
That's funny, because my dad's broke too.
- [49:30]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah. He really valued that. Like he. Because he grew up in Bushwick in an Italian neighborhood in the 40s.
- [49:37]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [49:38]
Mike Birbiglia
And he had. He had nothing. And then he got a scholarship to a Catholic school. Xavier. In high school in Manhattan. I.
- [49:44]
Marc Maron
Same with my dad. Yeah.
- [49:46]
Mike Birbiglia
Really?
- [49:46]
Marc Maron
Well, he grew up with, you know, his mom was a teacher.
- [49:49]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah.
- [49:50]
Marc Maron
His dad was like a bookkeeper.
- [49:52]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah.
- [49:52]
Marc Maron
And he was a valedictorian.
- [49:54]
Mike Birbiglia
My dad's dad worked in the subway tunnels. Yeah, he was an electrician. He'd go into those dark tunnels after they dynamite the tunnels, and then he'd rig wires in the darkness.
- [50:05]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Wow.
- [50:05]
Mike Birbiglia
It's crazy. I mean, so the idea that my dad ended up being like a doctor and had a law degree and all this stuff, it's bananas. And so I don't weirdly, like, at this age, I don't begrudge him any of that stuff because he wasn't. When my dad would rage, it would be like I say, you know, in the show, he'd be like, why are my goddamn keys. You know, and it'd be like, we gotta find dad's keys.
- [50:25]
Marc Maron
Yeah, I know that one.
- [50:26]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah, it gave me that. Like I was on edge.
- [50:29]
Marc Maron
The whole. The whole family has to snap into it.
- [50:31]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah.
- [50:31]
Marc Maron
Where's that ski hat? Oh, here we go.
- [50:34]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah. And so. But it wasn't at me. It was like. It wasn't like, God damn you, Mike.
- [50:39]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [50:39]
Mike Birbiglia
You know what I mean?
- [50:39]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [50:40]
Mike Birbiglia
It wasn't at me. So I don't know.
- [50:43]
Marc Maron
But it definitely scrambled the family into action big time. And then you never knew what you were gonna be dealing with when he got home.
- [50:49]
Mike Birbiglia
Oh, yeah.
- [50:49]
Marc Maron
It's like dealing with somebody with anger issues or self centered. Kind of the megalomaniacal thing of a doctor in general is that it's as erratic as an alcoholic.
- [51:00]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah. Do. Right.
- [51:01]
Marc Maron
You know what I mean? And my dad was bipolar, I guess, but you just didn't know and you barely saw him, so you wanted to engage one way or the other. And it was always like before family trips or something. Where the fuck.
- [51:15]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah, sure.
- [51:16]
Marc Maron
So you always enter these family experiences, just afraid.
- [51:19]
Mike Birbiglia
Well, it's funny, like, I, you know, I think the way I started writing a special two years ago was like, what can I teach my daughter? My daughter's eight. She's starting to ask questions that are hard. That's the way I started.
- [51:29]
Marc Maron
That's right. Yeah.
- [51:30]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah. And about a year into it, dad had a stroke. I was like, okay, now it's about how do I relate to my dad, how to relate to my daughter.
- [51:37]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [51:38]
Mike Birbiglia
But in. But you know, in some ways, the irony of it is this way that I look at my dad as like this mythological, all knowing creature. That's me now, right?
- [51:47]
Marc Maron
Yeah. For her.
- [51:49]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah.
- [51:49]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [51:49]
Mike Birbiglia
So it's like, I hope. Well, no, but you know, you know that that's.
- [51:54]
Marc Maron
You are. Yeah.
- [51:55]
Mike Birbiglia
At least for a period of time.
- [51:56]
Marc Maron
Sure.
- [51:56]
Mike Birbiglia
And then. And so I had to explain jokes to her the other day because I was like, this special is going to come out, millions of people are going to see it. And I talk about you and mom and grandma and grandpa. And like, so the way that I write jokes is like, there's something real that's true and then there's something silly and then something real and then something silly. So I explained to her, like the ballet joke. I'm like, we went to your ballet recital and mom and I are crying and crying because she doesn't have it, you know. And then I was like, no, we're crying and we're hugging her. And I go, you were so fantastic. And then you said, dad, you would say I was fantastic even if I wasn't fantastic. And I was like, you are so much better at logic than you are at ballet. And I go, like, so that's. So it's a joke.
- [52:35]
Marc Maron
Does she see it?
- [52:37]
Mike Birbiglia
I showed her some clips, so I was like, she took it pretty well. She took it pretty well. She goes, I like the true jokes better. And I go, well, the good thing is the special ends on true. I go, it's silly. True, silly, true, but it ends on true. And I think that that's the important part. And I think the audience knows which parts are silly and which parts are true.
- [52:57]
Marc Maron
Right.
- [52:58]
Mike Birbiglia
And so I'm hoping that that reads. She's 10. Like, I'm hoping that reads. But I'm also like, you know, I'm concerned.
- [53:04]
Marc Maron
Well, concerned in the sense that, like, at this age, when you showed her that joke, did it hurt her feelings?
- [53:11]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah, I think she didn't love it. But I also think, like, she loves the joke where, for example, she goes, someone comes up to me on the street when I'm with her and goes, you're a great. Your dad's a great comedian. She's like, all right. And I go, uno, what do you think when people say stuff like that? And she goes, it's a waste of my time. And I go, that's the meanest thing anyone's ever said to me. And I know Bill Burr.
- [53:32]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [53:33]
Mike Birbiglia
Like, she loves that.
- [53:34]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [53:34]
Mike Birbiglia
Because she's like. Because she's. She gets the joke. She is the.
- [53:37]
Marc Maron
She tells the joke and she.
- [53:39]
Mike Birbiglia
It's a waste of my time.
- [53:40]
Marc Maron
She gets to do a shot at you.
- [53:41]
Mike Birbiglia
She takes a shot at me. And, like, she. And earn and, you know, truly, she really does love that and gets. Why? What's funny about that?
- [53:52]
Marc Maron
Well, I guess the question is that. Does it. Is there the possibility that implants in her that, like, I am not good enough?
- [53:58]
Mike Birbiglia
Enough? Well, that's the concern. But I think, fortunately, I wouldn't have done it about, like, for example, like, she's really good at swimming.
- [54:04]
Marc Maron
Yeah. And, like, so she gave up ballet.
- [54:08]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah. That's like. Yeah. I don't even think she remembers it, barely.
- [54:11]
Marc Maron
Oh, that's good.
- [54:11]
Mike Birbiglia
You know what I mean? Like, it's like. It's like she was seven. Like, it doesn't really feel present.
- [54:15]
Marc Maron
Sure, sure.
- [54:16]
Mike Birbiglia
Like, I wouldn't have done it about a thing that she really cares about now. So I didn't do anything about swimming or whatever.
- [54:21]
Marc Maron
Good.
- [54:22]
Mike Birbiglia
And. But I'm. I'm le. I'm not doing anything about her for her teenage years. I'm literally. And I told her that. I go, I'm not talking about you for the next 10 years, because you have your own journey and growth, and, like, this is your story to tell.
- [54:37]
Marc Maron
Well, that's the tricky thing. And that's the lesson with my dad and also the lessons that I've done. Jokes about women I've been involved with.
- [54:44]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah.
- [54:44]
Marc Maron
Is that when they say to you, like, could you maybe go easy on this?
- [54:49]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah.
- [54:49]
Marc Maron
Yeah. And then you, you know, depending on what's more important to you, which is a real question, you know, comedy or the. This.
- [54:55]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah, sure.
- [54:56]
Marc Maron
You know, you kind of navigate that, but you know, to what? And also, I had a girlfriend who I wrote about, and she said her thing was, it's like, well, I don't get a public rebuttal.
- [55:07]
Mike Birbiglia
That's right.
- [55:08]
Marc Maron
So that's another thing you got to take in consideration. That taught me a lot.
- [55:12]
Mike Birbiglia
Oh, completely.
- [55:13]
Marc Maron
And because we want, you know, we're selfish, we like, but this is my story. You're in it, but it's my story. And they're like, yeah, but I don't agree with it.
- [55:20]
Mike Birbiglia
Right, sure.
- [55:21]
Marc Maron
So then what.
- [55:23]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah. Which is why I'm taking some time off from autobiographical storytelling. Because it is loaded. Yeah. No, I'm taking a few Years off from it. And I'm writing. Right. The thing I'm writing right now is my next movie. I'm going to direct.
- [55:34]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [55:34]
Mike Birbiglia
It'll be another small indie.
- [55:36]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [55:36]
Mike Birbiglia
Like Sleepwalk With Me or Don't Think Twice. It's actually a lot like Don't Think Twice. It's about a group of friends and. Oh, okay. And it's. It's at a wedding and it's. It's just that kind of.
- [55:45]
Marc Maron
So you can. You can live in other people. That's a little bit.
- [55:48]
Mike Birbiglia
That's right.
- [55:49]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [55:49]
Mike Birbiglia
And. And. And. And it's. And no one's one for one. So, like, Don't Think Twice. For example, a lot of times people will be like, this is about Mike doing improv. It's like, no, it's not.
- [55:57]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [55:58]
Mike Birbiglia
I wasn't really an improviser.
- [55:59]
Marc Maron
Right.
- [56:00]
Mike Birbiglia
I did it in college. Right.
- [56:01]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [56:02]
Mike Birbiglia
But, like, it was funny because. Yeah. You're. Did you ever see Don't Think Twice.
- [56:06]
Marc Maron
About the sketch group?
- [56:07]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah.
- [56:07]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [56:07]
Mike Birbiglia
The improv group. Yeah. Michael Key and Gillian Jacobs.
- [56:10]
Marc Maron
Yeah, I think so.
- [56:11]
Mike Birbiglia
I thought you would like it because it is about jealousy. It's about, like, what happens when. When someone gets, you know, in this case, like, a fake siren. Live.
- [56:19]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [56:19]
Mike Birbiglia
Keegan. Michael Key got. And then everyone else doesn't. It's about, like, what happens in life when we realize it's not fair.
- [56:25]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [56:26]
Mike Birbiglia
It's actually one of the best things. My mom told me when I was a kid. She. I remember saying to my mom, it's not fair. Someone got something. She goes, nothing's fair. Life isn't fair. I think that's one of the best things you can teach a kid.
- [56:39]
Marc Maron
Oh, totally.
- [56:40]
Mike Birbiglia
Nothing's fair.
- [56:41]
Marc Maron
Yeah. But also the other side of it is that we feel that because we feel we deserve something, but we don't really know if we're right for the job or what they're looking for.
- [56:53]
Mike Birbiglia
Are you talking about, like, the SNL.
- [56:54]
Marc Maron
Scenario or any scenario? It's like, yeah, like, some guy gets elevated because of you, and you think, like, you deserve that. But perhaps the person that was giving that job to somebody had a reason.
- [57:06]
Mike Birbiglia
Oh, 100%.
- [57:07]
Marc Maron
You know? And then you could say, like, well, that's fucked up. It's like, yeah, but it doesn't matter. So that's the unfairness. But it's not a meritocracy issue.
- [57:14]
Mike Birbiglia
Not at all. It's funny, like, doing that movie cured me of jealousy because I fucking wrote this movie for two years, three years. I directed it. I edited it like it just was. And then at a certain point, I was like, these characters are fucking insufferable.
- [57:29]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [57:29]
Mike Birbiglia
They need to get over themselves. This has nothing. Because you. The same thing you're saying has nothing to do with them in a certain way. Who gets what has kind of nothing.
- [57:38]
Marc Maron
To do with you and everybody. The jealousy is driven by your own insecurities and what you think you're, you know, entitled to based on, you know, your sense of, you know, justice or self righteousness. That could be that you might be talentless.
- [57:51]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah.
- [57:53]
Marc Maron
You might not deserve that job at all. You can't see that.
- [57:56]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah.
- [57:57]
Marc Maron
So, like. And it's hard to learn that lesson.
- [58:00]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah.
- [58:00]
Marc Maron
You know, like to just go like, well, it wasn't for me.
- [58:03]
Mike Birbiglia
Totally.
- [58:04]
Marc Maron
Yeah. It wasn't my opportunity to get. Yeah, it's. And that's. That takes. That takes some real humility. Because, like, if you're. If you're ambitious and you want something and, you know, you believe you deserve it, how can you, like, when someone else gets it, go like. Well, he's probably the better choice.
- [58:22]
Mike Birbiglia
Totally. And it's interesting. I was watching. I was on a show the other day with this guy, Arthur Brooks. He's like a Harvard professor who wrote this book on, like, number one bestseller on happiness.
- [58:31]
Marc Maron
Oh, good.
- [58:31]
Mike Birbiglia
And he has this really basic, super smart guy.
- [58:34]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [58:34]
Mike Birbiglia
Really basic thing that I'm like, I'm going to teach my daughter this, which is when something challenging happens, write down two things. And one of them is write down what happened and how it made you feel. And the second thing is write down what you learned and then go back to it six months later. And usually the first thing you actually don't care about. And the second thing you learned.
- [58:57]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Oh, interesting. Well, that kind of happens when you get older where you. You think, like, how did I give so much of a. About that?
- [59:03]
Mike Birbiglia
It's crazy.
- [59:04]
Marc Maron
Like, it consumed me for years.
- [59:07]
Mike Birbiglia
Oh, for sure.
- [59:07]
Marc Maron
And then it's like, not even there anymore. It's not even that it was stupid. It's just like. It was kind of like nothing.
- [59:13]
Mike Birbiglia
Right. Well, you know what's funny? But that, you know, you're 61.
- [59:20]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [59:20]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah. CHRIS Rock said to me recently, he goes, you get to 60 because he's 60. Also, I think, because you get to 60s. Like, there's not many of us comics left, like, who are doing it.
- [59:34]
Marc Maron
Yes. You know, and who aren't huge. Like the guys who, like, can, you know, go out just on a whim and make $50 million, they seem to never go away. But the guy. But the guys who, like, you know, like, what happened to that guy? I don't know.
- [59:49]
Mike Birbiglia
No, there's a lot of that.
- [59:51]
Marc Maron
Totally.
- [59:51]
Mike Birbiglia
There's a lot of that. Even now in my 40s.
- [59:53]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [59:54]
Mike Birbiglia
Where they'll have, like, that guy just gone. I don't know.
- [59:56]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [59:57]
Mike Birbiglia
It's a weird field in that way. And a lot of people die. I mean, that's the thing that's painful is, like, Geraldo died. Hedberg died.
- [60:03]
Marc Maron
I mean, like, in their prime.
- [60:05]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah. Patrice died. I mean, like, so many people die.
- [60:10]
Marc Maron
Well, yeah, but, like, that's not different than any other world.
- [60:12]
Mike Birbiglia
I don't know.
- [60:14]
Marc Maron
I don't. I grown to argue this sort of, like, well, comics are all fucked up, or there's more drugs and alcohol and, like, really? More than cops, more than firemen.
- [60:23]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah.
- [60:24]
Marc Maron
More than plumbers.
- [60:25]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah. Yeah.
- [60:25]
Marc Maron
I don't know. Show me the numbers.
- [60:27]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah, yeah, I want to. I do want to see the numbers.
- [60:29]
Marc Maron
And also show me the ratio of comics versus how many working comics there are versus the ones that died young, I think, tragically, is something. But that happens, too.
- [60:38]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah.
- [60:39]
Marc Maron
You know, but. Yeah, but, yeah, people go. And then there are those comics where you're like, whatever happened to that guy? And then out of nowhere, you'll be like, oh, he's working down the street.
- [60:46]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah, totally.
- [60:48]
Marc Maron
That's insane.
- [60:49]
Mike Birbiglia
Also, sometimes people get really good later.
- [60:52]
Marc Maron
Oh, yeah.
- [60:53]
Mike Birbiglia
Like, you're. Well, you're a good example. Yeah, you were good in the 90s. You're great now.
- [60:58]
Marc Maron
I was better. I'm better now.
- [61:00]
Mike Birbiglia
I think you're better now.
- [61:01]
Marc Maron
I wasn't formed. I was just angry. I was a rageaholic.
- [61:04]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah, you're a rageaholic.
- [61:07]
Marc Maron
And I used to think, like, well, this is what everybody wants. Months. But, you know, true rage versus funny rage.
- [61:13]
Mike Birbiglia
Different thing, you know, like, true rage versus funny rage. Okay, sure.
- [61:18]
Marc Maron
Yeah. If you're really an angry person and you don't have control of it, that. That's. That's not great, you know, like, you know, even if you watch old Hicks stuff, I mean, his anger was, you know, utterly alienating, totally justified, but not. Not entertaining for most people.
- [61:36]
Mike Birbiglia
Right, right.
- [61:36]
Marc Maron
Whereas somebody like Burr is a cranky, angry fuck. But, you know, he's got a populist slant on it, and he's got a slant on, you know, the dynamic between him and his wife. And he's softening up a little bit, but that the. The funny, cranky guy or the funny, angry guy is a rare bird.
- [61:53]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah.
- [61:53]
Marc Maron
The ones that are good at it. It's great.
- [61:56]
Mike Birbiglia
That's right.
- [61:56]
Marc Maron
Yeah, but. Yeah, but honest rage, not. Not great. It's a little disconcerting.
- [62:01]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah, I get that.
- [62:02]
Marc Maron
But, no, I feel like I am better now. I think you're better now.
- [62:05]
Mike Birbiglia
Thanks.
- [62:06]
Marc Maron
I think you've become less of a caricature of yourself.
- [62:10]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
- [62:11]
Marc Maron
And I think, like, one of the things that annoyed me early on was that you were kind of leaning on this character that was part of you. Our characters are always part of us, but it was. It didn't have a lot of depth necessarily.
- [62:24]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah. I think, like, when we're starting out.
- [62:26]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [62:27]
Mike Birbiglia
We're emulating the people we admire. I mean, I remember even talking to Geraldo one time. I was opening for him, and he goes. He goes, dude. He goes, when I was starting out.
- [62:36]
Marc Maron
You had a tell.
- [62:37]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah, he goes, I was doing a tell.
- [62:39]
Marc Maron
Totally.
- [62:39]
Mike Birbiglia
He goes, I have TV spots where I'm doing a tell, and it pains me so much.
- [62:45]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [62:45]
Mike Birbiglia
You know, because he admired a tell. There's a fucking generation of people who admired it.
- [62:49]
Marc Maron
There's a lot of hotels around.
- [62:50]
Mike Birbiglia
There's a lot of Attels running around.
- [62:52]
Marc Maron
And then even now, I would say that there are people who are influenced by him, but I would say Sam Morrell is definitely an Attell Mattel.
- [63:00]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah, sure.
- [63:01]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [63:02]
Mike Birbiglia
And then, like. And then there was tons of Hedbergs for a while, Mitch Hedberg's, and that.
- [63:05]
Marc Maron
Was a little more specific. And it was always annoying because, you know, tell, like, what you learn from a tell is, like, incredible joke structure.
- [63:12]
Mike Birbiglia
Oh, amazing. And he said, by the way, talk about someone who's. Who's better. I see him when I see him at the Cellar, he's on fire.
- [63:19]
Marc Maron
He's always been on fire. I mean, it's just nice.
- [63:21]
Mike Birbiglia
He's got a different brain.
- [63:22]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah. It's like he. It's like a abacus. It's like an abacus that's on fire.
- [63:30]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah.
- [63:30]
Marc Maron
In his brain all the time. A joke abacus.
- [63:32]
Mike Birbiglia
That's right.
- [63:33]
Marc Maron
It's constantly putting it together.
- [63:34]
Mike Birbiglia
That's what it is.
- [63:35]
Marc Maron
But. But Hedberg was a disposition, so when people took Hedberg, they had to do his.
- [63:40]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah.
- [63:40]
Marc Maron
The.
- [63:41]
Mike Birbiglia
A kind of an escalator can never be broken, and it can only become stairs.
- [63:45]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah.
- [63:46]
Mike Birbiglia
All right.
- [63:46]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But. But, yeah. No, but see, I think you've. In the last few specials. Okay. I guess probably since Sweep Walk With Me, you kind of came into yourself more.
- [63:58]
Mike Birbiglia
Thanks, man. Yeah, I think it's like, I think everyone's doing that, though, right? I think. I think the thing that I have in common with Geraldo is that it was filmed early. You know what I mean? Like, I got a few things on tv, and then. So people can see me as a collection of my influences before I find myself.
- [64:17]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [64:17]
Mike Birbiglia
Or found myself.
- [64:18]
Marc Maron
Yeah. I wonder if that's. I find that I'm more aware of my influences now, and when I watch old stuff of mine, it's weird because it's not. I never. I'm always kind to myself, except when in my first year or two then I had an attitude that wasn't really mine. But, like, most of the time, I'm like, well, you know, you're not there yet, but I can see me in it. I don't really know exactly who my influences are. Are, because they. They happen in. In moments, you know? Like, I know if I do, like. Like there have been beats where I'm like, oh, it's just like a Gaffigan beat.
- [64:56]
Mike Birbiglia
Oh, interesting.
- [64:57]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [64:57]
Mike Birbiglia
Or.
- [64:57]
Marc Maron
Or there's like a. A way I've been. I've become more clear about my homages or where, like, I track where they come from when I see them.
- [65:05]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah.
- [65:05]
Marc Maron
Like that bit at the end of End Times Fun. Which was this, you know, operatic bit where, you know, Mike Pence is blowing. Jesus. I knew in my mind, like, this is to honor Hicks.
- [65:16]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah. Yeah, sure.
- [65:18]
Marc Maron
Because it's structurally not exactly what I do anymore, but there was a time where that kind of. That type of anger flow.
- [65:24]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah.
- [65:25]
Marc Maron
And I'm like, this is for him.
- [65:26]
Mike Birbiglia
That's nice.
- [65:27]
Marc Maron
Only I know it, but. Yeah, but why. Who do you think your influence were early?
- [65:30]
Mike Birbiglia
It was Hedberg.
- [65:31]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [65:32]
Mike Birbiglia
I had the, like, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
- [65:36]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Where does it, like. Because I talked to this guy and I. And I don't. I put it together. But where does Andy Blitz factor in with me? Yeah.
- [65:47]
Mike Birbiglia
Oh, I never saw Andy Blitz other than, like, every now and then, Luna Lounge, I'd run into him, but I know I didn't. We just look like.
- [65:55]
Marc Maron
No, there's, like. He does a thing. He's. It's a lot slower than you, but I. I think that, like, you know, the kind of like. Well, you know, like, there's a. There was a thing, but you never.
- [66:05]
Mike Birbiglia
No, I think he's funny, but I don't know his work at all.
- [66:07]
Marc Maron
Oh, you didn't absorb Orbit.
- [66:08]
Mike Birbiglia
No, no. He was a writer at Conan. Was. I was an intern, maybe.
- [66:11]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [66:12]
Mike Birbiglia
Like, I think we crossed over yeah. And we. I think we have a similar talking style.
- [66:16]
Marc Maron
That's math.
- [66:16]
Mike Birbiglia
And we have a similar, like, hairline. We kind of look similar, but. Yeah. No, no.
- [66:20]
Marc Maron
So is Hedberg, mostly.
- [66:21]
Mike Birbiglia
Hedberg, I would say, was my biggest influence. Stephen Wright was a huge influence.
- [66:25]
Marc Maron
Really?
- [66:25]
Mike Birbiglia
That was the first one. So Stephen Wright was. I saw when I was 16 at the Cape Cod Melody Tent. My brother Joe took me and it. It changed my life.
- [66:34]
Marc Maron
But that's, but, but that's not. Neither of those are really the style of jokes you do.
- [66:38]
Mike Birbiglia
No. And so then. And then what happened was I did the moth 2003.
- [66:44]
Marc Maron
Oh, right. Yeah.
- [66:45]
Mike Birbiglia
And I was like. And it was. It was interesting. You talk about, like finding yourself. It's like at the moth, you have to be yourself.
- [66:51]
Marc Maron
Yeah. That's where what Luna was for me.
- [66:54]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah. And then there's no version of the moth where you see someone's story.
- [66:58]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [66:59]
Mike Birbiglia
And it's not them.
- [67:00]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [67:00]
Mike Birbiglia
Like they. They direct you. They dramaturg it. It was the first time where like, I truly had, like, Katherine Burns was my director and she kind of taught me how to teach. Tell a eight minute story. And it was.
- [67:13]
Marc Maron
Oh, so that introduced you long form.
- [67:15]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah. And that. And then I did that. And then I. And that introduced me to Ira Glass, this American Life. And then he did a bunch of stories with me and. And he really taught me just how to tell story, like. Right. And then how to, you know, find.
- [67:27]
Marc Maron
The Bob and Tom stuff too. Right.
- [67:29]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah. Bob and Tom was huge because they let me do my secret journal.
- [67:33]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [67:33]
Mike Birbiglia
Which was like this piece I wrote, which is like a travelogue. And I would call in and so. Yeah, there were a lot of. There were a lot of people that.
- [67:41]
Marc Maron
Moved you towards long form.
- [67:42]
Mike Birbiglia
Long form. Yeah. And also, like, I. When I was in college, I wanted to be a screenwriter. I just want to write movies and plays. I didn't want to be a comic. I just. I just wanted that.
- [67:51]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [67:51]
Mike Birbiglia
And then I got out of college, I was like, oh, that's. No one wants that job. No one has that job. No one's offering that job. It's a weird thing when you realize from your college naivete that like that, like, no one's waiting for you.
- [68:04]
Marc Maron
Oh, yeah. No. If you decide this world, it's all on you.
- [68:08]
Mike Birbiglia
Oh, yeah.
- [68:08]
Marc Maron
To push it out there. So let me ask you, like, early on we talked about, you know, the parts of your father that you're infected with.
- [68:18]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah.
- [68:18]
Marc Maron
You don't really address that in the show. It's interesting. It's sort of. And I'm not sure I do either.
- [68:24]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah.
- [68:24]
Marc Maron
Because, like, it's this whole other zone of possibility.
- [68:28]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah. Sometimes my. Sometimes my brother Joe calls me Vince Jr. Really? Yeah.
- [68:33]
Marc Maron
In what situations?
- [68:35]
Mike Birbiglia
I think because of my intensity.
- [68:37]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [68:37]
Mike Birbiglia
You know, I think that the thing that's confusing to people sometimes when they know me versus they see me on stage, is that on stage I seem relaxed. And off stage, I'm pretty intense. I'm not mean, but I'm intense.
- [68:53]
Marc Maron
Yeah. I think maybe that was one of the reasons that I. I sort of was resentful.
- [68:58]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah.
- [68:58]
Marc Maron
I'm like, this guy's not being honest.
- [69:00]
Mike Birbiglia
But I can explain why.
- [69:01]
Marc Maron
Okay.
- [69:02]
Mike Birbiglia
It actually makes sense because I've thought about a lot. I. Reglass brought it up on my podcast recently where he's like. He's like, in real life, you're super intense, and on stage you're really relaxed. And I go, ira, it's because on stage I'm relaxed, actually, because it makes sense. I'm in charge.
- [69:19]
Marc Maron
Right. You have complete control.
- [69:21]
Mike Birbiglia
So in my life, I'm like, fucking flipping out of control. And I'm like, I gotta hold onto something. And then I'm intense. On stage, it's just me talking. If there's a heckler, I have a line. I make a. I can handle it. I've been doing this a long time. So it's like on stage, I fucking. I'm pretty happy.
- [69:37]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Cause you decide.
- [69:39]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah. I find this sometimes, like, at parties, you go. People go like, oh, comedians. Like, I met this comedian at party. He wasn't that funny or whatever. Yeah, but we suck at parties.
- [69:48]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [69:49]
Mike Birbiglia
Suck at parties. Because it's a bunch of people talking to each other.
- [69:53]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [69:53]
Mike Birbiglia
And I'm like, no, no, shut the fuck up. I have the best story.
- [69:56]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's not about me enough.
- [69:58]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah, but not even that. It's like. It's like. It's not about, you know, someone be like, you.
- [70:04]
Marc Maron
You amateurs.
- [70:04]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah. You amateurs. It's like. It's like, oh, I. One time I sleepwalked through a second story window. And they're like, oh, let me tell you my sleepwalker. No, no, no, mine's better.
- [70:12]
Marc Maron
No, it's going to be better. I've worked on it for years.
- [70:14]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah, exactly.
- [70:17]
Marc Maron
No, that's interesting, so. Because I feel that too. But it wasn't always that way. I mean, I think I got comfortable on stage where you. You have that moment where you realize, like, oh, I live up here.
- [70:27]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah. Yeah, I live up here.
- [70:28]
Marc Maron
And you Know when you're about to go on stage, at some point you're like, I'm not nervous at all.
- [70:33]
Mike Birbiglia
That's why I always tell young comics, I go like, get on stage anywhere. Anyone will let you be on stage. I, I, you know, you were in sleepwalk with me. You played like the mentor comic in sleepwalk with me. But it's like, it's like I performed. I hosted a lip sync contest at a college. I did open mics, I did coffee houses, I would show up at bars when I was in college in D.C. where it was an open mic where they didn't want comedy.
- [71:00]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [71:00]
Mike Birbiglia
And I would sign up and then I'd fucking go up.
- [71:02]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [71:03]
Mike Birbiglia
People were like, what?
- [71:04]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [71:04]
Mike Birbiglia
Like that's how you get okay.
- [71:07]
Marc Maron
Overcoming those fears.
- [71:08]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah.
- [71:08]
Marc Maron
And like, but God, at the beginning you're just like, for weeks you're like, I got to do five minutes.
- [71:12]
Mike Birbiglia
Oh, yeah.
- [71:13]
Marc Maron
For weeks.
- [71:14]
Mike Birbiglia
Oh, yeah.
- [71:14]
Marc Maron
Freaking out. But what, what? So intensity. But are you an angry guy?
- [71:20]
Mike Birbiglia
I don't think so.
- [71:23]
Marc Maron
Okay.
- [71:24]
Mike Birbiglia
I don't know.
- [71:24]
Marc Maron
You didn't get that from your dad. You don't, you don't blast off.
- [71:27]
Mike Birbiglia
I don't know. No, that was the thing that when I was a kid, I was like, I'm never going to do that. I remember my dad flying off the handle. I was like, I'm never going to do that. I never yell. You get asked like, you know, all the people who work on the producers of my podcast and my wife and my daughter, like, I do not yell. It is, it is baked into me. It's possible it's all staying inside and feeding into a tumor that's in forming in real time, but, but it doesn't come out.
- [71:53]
Marc Maron
Yeah, I used to do, I used to do a bit about that. Like, you know, like, like when you stifle anger where you're like, God damn. And then it just, it goes inside you and it creates tumors with your parents faces on.
- [72:05]
Mike Birbiglia
Oh my God. That's fucking funny. It's funny because I had a joke about my anger going inside and then forming into tumors until I die. And Ira was like, take that joke out. And I go, why? And he goes, I don't think it's true. I think it's like an old wives tale. Like, I think it's like, it's like.
- [72:22]
Marc Maron
Oh, he had a problem with the science of the joke.
- [72:23]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah, with the science of the joke. I was like, all right. I did take it out though.
- [72:27]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [72:28]
Mike Birbiglia
It's funny how similar that Joey. That's a Good. Parallel development example.
- [72:31]
Marc Maron
Sure.
- [72:31]
Mike Birbiglia
You and I, basically the same joke. So yours is funnier. The pictures of your family.
- [72:36]
Marc Maron
Yeah, I took it one step into joke land.
- [72:38]
Mike Birbiglia
Well, no, mine. Mine had a joke too. I just forget what it was, but it was like. Yeah, you had a funny one years ago that I loved, which was the chain reaction of anger. This guy cuts you off this and this. It all somehow ends up in the Middle East.
- [72:51]
Marc Maron
People remember that joke.
- [72:53]
Mike Birbiglia
That joke's great. That joke. That's a classic.
- [72:54]
Marc Maron
That's like one of my first jokes.
- [72:56]
Mike Birbiglia
That's. That's a classic joke.
- [72:57]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah, it's good.
- [72:59]
Mike Birbiglia
Why are you going.
- [73:00]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah.
- [73:00]
Mike Birbiglia
Just take it as a compliment. Thank you.
- [73:02]
Marc Maron
Oh, thank you.
- [73:03]
Mike Birbiglia
You're welcome.
- [73:04]
Marc Maron
No, I like the joke, but like, it's funny that there are people, like, to this day. Remember that joke? I did it on me. I don't know if I even did it on a Letterman or maybe I did on Conan. Maybe I did on my first Letterman.
- [73:13]
Mike Birbiglia
Well, you were like a stand up comic when stand up comedy was in mono before it was in stereo.
- [73:19]
Marc Maron
Sure.
- [73:19]
Mike Birbiglia
You know, like. Like when there was 10 comics.
- [73:22]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah. And then I was in. There was 10 comics at the top and then 20 in the middle and then 50 at the bottom and I was somewhere in the lower tiers. But yeah, I was around.
- [73:32]
Mike Birbiglia
I don't think you.
- [73:33]
Marc Maron
There was still only 100 guys.
- [73:34]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah, yeah, totally. You know, now there's like a thousand.
- [73:37]
Marc Maron
I don't even know how many.
- [73:38]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah, it's a lot.
- [73:39]
Marc Maron
Yeah. So do you, do you find yourself. What about your mom? What'd you get from her?
- [73:45]
Mike Birbiglia
Well, like I said, like, my mom was like, nothing's fair, you know.
- [73:48]
Marc Maron
Oh, that. Yeah, she had this practical.
- [73:50]
Mike Birbiglia
She has a really good.
- [73:51]
Marc Maron
A real Catholic.
- [73:52]
Mike Birbiglia
Very Catholic. Yeah. So she. And. And when I, you know, I talk in the special about. I went to see the Pope last year.
- [73:58]
Marc Maron
Oh, yeah?
- [73:59]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah, Yeah. A bunch of comedians. Yeah, it was like Rock and Colbert and Cohen.
- [74:02]
Marc Maron
That was kind of weird, wasn't it?
- [74:03]
Mike Birbiglia
It's interesting.
- [74:04]
Marc Maron
But like, how'd that group get chosen?
- [74:06]
Mike Birbiglia
Pope Francis, I think.
- [74:07]
Marc Maron
I wasn't expecting to be on that list. I have no resentment about that.
- [74:10]
Mike Birbiglia
Oh, good, good, good. The. I think that it was some version of Colbert and the Vatican.
- [74:20]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [74:20]
Mike Birbiglia
Like emailing back and forth a group of people's names. That's how I understand it.
- [74:25]
Marc Maron
Cause he's a very out Catholic.
- [74:26]
Mike Birbiglia
He's a very out Catholic. Yeah. Yeah.
- [74:29]
Marc Maron
So the Pope says, that guy. He's on board.
- [74:31]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah. But my. Yeah, My mom's very Catholic. I was very Catholic. I talk about it in the special. As an altar boy, I was just full. Full in. And, you know, my mom. I think the biggest thing I learned from my mom is to laugh at yourself. My mom is, like, always willing to lean into the character of herself, and I just love that. I just think that's a good attitude.
- [74:59]
Marc Maron
Well, I guess if you lean into. If you're a believer and, you know, you're flawed and you're imperfect, and you use Jesus to relieve you of that. That there must be some acceptance of who you are if you have that relationship with. With Jesus.
- [75:12]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah, that's a. That's an optimistic take. I hope that's.
- [75:19]
Marc Maron
You don't want to overuse Jesus.
- [75:21]
Mike Birbiglia
No, you don't overuse.
- [75:22]
Marc Maron
Continue being bad.
- [75:24]
Mike Birbiglia
But my mom is one of these people, and my. I think in some way I see this in my daughter sometimes. It's like she, you know, like, my mom will be. Friend. Will be friends with anyone who wants friends.
- [75:40]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [75:41]
Mike Birbiglia
You know what I mean?
- [75:41]
Marc Maron
She's of service.
- [75:43]
Mike Birbiglia
She's of service. It's astonishing.
- [75:45]
Marc Maron
That's real churchy.
- [75:47]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah. She'd be like, my friend Ellen was saying, blah, blah. I was like, ellen who? Like, this person I met at the grocery store. You met someone at the grocery store? But, like, that's what my mom is like. And. And. And I'd like to think I picked up a little bit of that from her.
- [76:02]
Marc Maron
She's kind of, oh, that's nice.
- [76:03]
Mike Birbiglia
You know, and that's what. That's what the end of the special ends on is. All we have is these small acts of kindness.
- [76:08]
Marc Maron
Yeah, I think that's. That's probably true. I try to be kind. Sometimes it's a little late.
- [76:15]
Mike Birbiglia
Like now, this conversation.
- [76:17]
Marc Maron
We do fine.
- [76:19]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah, we're fine.
- [76:20]
Marc Maron
We are. I don't have any. You know, like, whenever we do it, I have to reckon with the fact, like, you know, like, hey, Marco, what do you. What are you so hard on this guy for? What the. What the fuck is it, really? But, you know, I find that, like, my struggle in relation to other people or how I see it, it's just sort of the same thing as nothing's fair that there was a time where literally you were doing one of the shows at the Bleecker Theater.
- [76:50]
Mike Birbiglia
Right. And you were in the basement. Yeah.
- [76:52]
Marc Maron
Yeah. And to me, that was like, what the fuck? How does. Like, how. You know, and you're younger than me. Well, I knew how it happened. I'm a fan. I'M out of my mind.
- [77:00]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah, yeah.
- [77:00]
Marc Maron
And you weren't. And if you were controlled. That's right.
- [77:05]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah. Yeah.
- [77:06]
Marc Maron
But. But it was, you know, all based on this sort of like, you know, like, you know, he's this, you know, palatable person.
- [77:13]
Mike Birbiglia
Right.
- [77:14]
Marc Maron
That's able to, you know, wrangle this thing into these shows and get all this attention. And I'm down there, you know, yelling.
- [77:20]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah, yeah, I get it.
- [77:22]
Marc Maron
So there was really all rooted in that.
- [77:24]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah, I get that.
- [77:25]
Marc Maron
But I'm, you know, I'm letting it go. I let it go. Every time we hang out. You keep coming here.
- [77:31]
Mike Birbiglia
True. It's been a while, though.
- [77:33]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Well, I think we went through well. I mean, there was that thing with Lynn and that was kind of upsetting to me, and I don't know why I hold on to things really, but I'm always good with you.
- [77:46]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah.
- [77:47]
Marc Maron
You all right?
- [77:48]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah, I'm good.
- [77:49]
Marc Maron
Yeah?
- [77:51]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah, I feel like. Yeah, I'm good.
- [77:54]
Marc Maron
What?
- [77:55]
Mike Birbiglia
No, I got nothing. I got nothing.
- [77:57]
Marc Maron
There's nothing to process.
- [77:58]
Mike Birbiglia
No, I just feel like whenever you talk about me on the show.
- [78:04]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [78:05]
Mike Birbiglia
Like, people texted me last week, you talked about me during the Nick Kroll episode.
- [78:08]
Marc Maron
Did I?
- [78:09]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah. You're like, I have a thing with him or whatever.
- [78:12]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [78:12]
Mike Birbiglia
You were like, do you guys all hang out with each other?
- [78:14]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [78:15]
Mike Birbiglia
You know, that kind of thing.
- [78:16]
Marc Maron
Jealousy.
- [78:16]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah. I got all this text messages being like, mark's talking about you again, the show. And then we talk on the phone and it's nice. And then it's like, there's a premium episode where it called Mike Birbiglia called me, and then we. You talk for 45 minutes. About a 20 minute phone call we had.
- [78:32]
Marc Maron
Yeah, but I felt bad and the.
- [78:34]
Mike Birbiglia
Phone call was nice, but.
- [78:35]
Marc Maron
No, but I felt bad because the whole thrust of that was like, I'm mad. And then, like, I say a thing, I don't feel great about it, and then you text me and I'm like, oh, fuck. Now I got to really deal with it. And by the time that happens, I feel bad about what I've done.
- [78:49]
Mike Birbiglia
Right.
- [78:50]
Marc Maron
And that's that. It's just this dumb thing that I got from my father is like, you. You focus, you get angry, you say some shit, and then, like, it's out of you. But. But the component of it that's missing is that, well, you hurt someone's feelings. And, you know, that was the. That was the. The arc of that, so now you're fine. But it also puts me in a position to where, like, yeah, dude, I'm sorry. Like, to defy you to accept me. And I think that was my whole dynamic with my old man and that I used to do that joke on stage, you know, like, I do this little thing where I push the audience away. Push them away. And then pull them back. And pull them back. Then I push them away. Just see if I can pull them back. It's a little dynamic I call dad.
- [79:32]
Mike Birbiglia
Well, my version of that, actually. And this circles back to your question. Are you angry? Is like, I have this joke from Old man in the Pool. Not a joke. It's just a piece of writing from Old man in the Pool where I go. I write my journal every few nights because I find if you write down what you're saddest about or angriest about, you can I forget what the line is? Like, if you're saddest about, you're angriest about. Oh, you can start to see your own life as a story.
- [79:59]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [79:59]
Mike Birbiglia
And at a certain point, hopefully, you can encourage the main character to make better decisions.
- [80:05]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [80:05]
Mike Birbiglia
And, like, that is why I journal. Like, the things in my journal are fucking wild.
- [80:09]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [80:09]
Mike Birbiglia
Like, they're fucking angry. They're.
- [80:11]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [80:11]
Mike Birbiglia
They're spun out.
- [80:12]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [80:13]
Mike Birbiglia
But I don't.
- [80:14]
Marc Maron
You don't have to live in it.
- [80:15]
Mike Birbiglia
I don't. I don't. Well, no, I live in it. No, I do live in it.
- [80:17]
Marc Maron
But it becomes a story. Once you write it.
- [80:19]
Mike Birbiglia
It becomes a story. So, like, a lot of. Like, Like a few years ago, I did a special called the New One, and it was all about how I never wanted to have a child. And then all the reasons you should never have a child. And then how I had a child and how I was right.
- [80:33]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [80:33]
Mike Birbiglia
And then how I was wrong. And that's kind of the emotional landing.
- [80:35]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [80:36]
Mike Birbiglia
The show. And it's a lot, like, A lot of that show is me writing in my journal for all those years of feeling like I'm completely left out of the, like, mother, daughter relationship. I'm the fucking third person who no one gives a about.
- [80:53]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [80:54]
Mike Birbiglia
I'm not really part of this thing. And, like, a lot of that stuff ended up being really good jokes.
- [80:58]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [80:59]
Mike Birbiglia
But at the time, this is. I was angry.
- [81:01]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [81:01]
Mike Birbiglia
I was, like, furious.
- [81:02]
Marc Maron
Well, yeah. So, like. Well, even with. With the dynamic and Nick's another guy. Dude, I had to stop following him on Instagram.
- [81:09]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah.
- [81:09]
Marc Maron
Like, I mean, like, Nick roll.
- [81:11]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah. Wow.
- [81:12]
Marc Maron
Because I. I. And I tell. But, you know, he's. He's different. I I think he's got a thicker skin than you. Really?
- [81:18]
Mike Birbiglia
Oh, okay. I don't know about that, but sure.
- [81:21]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Well, maybe it's a funnier thicker skin.
- [81:25]
Mike Birbiglia
Nick is funny. Yeah. I've known nick since he's 20 years old, and I know.
- [81:28]
Marc Maron
He told me that.
- [81:29]
Mike Birbiglia
And he's so. He was always funny.
- [81:31]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [81:31]
Mike Birbiglia
That's the thing about.
- [81:32]
Marc Maron
He's.
- [81:33]
Mike Birbiglia
He's funny as bones.
- [81:34]
Marc Maron
Totally gifted comedian.
- [81:35]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah. Yeah.
- [81:36]
Marc Maron
So I had to stop following him on Instagram because I got tired of looking at his gilded childhood, like, so funny. Like, you know, it's just, like, so much love around him, and they're all.
- [81:45]
Mike Birbiglia
It really does have a lot. I know.
- [81:46]
Marc Maron
And it just kept coming up. I'm like, I just can't take this anymore.
- [81:49]
Mike Birbiglia
Too much love.
- [81:49]
Marc Maron
This guy's got everything. And I think if I can be honest with you, in terms of, like, why I. It's all me, dude. You know, whatever this thing is with me and you, it's all me. And I know that, but I have total inability to see my place in the world. And I'm not very good at gratitude. So the phantom limb that I live with is that I feel that people are doing better than me or they're being treated better than me, they're being received better than me. It's fundamental insecurity. But we're sitting in my house. I'm doing okay. I'm doing good. I'm doing everything we should be. I'm doing a special. I'm acting in movies. But there's still part of me that's sort of like, well, fuck Birbiglia and the show. Yeah, that one man show. I'm like, I don't even know what that is, but it's not real. And I'm sorry that I act on it. I appreciate it, and I won't talk shit about you. It's always like. And I know it doesn't make me look good, and I know it's just. It doesn't read as anything other than what it is. Mark is at times a resentful, insecure, jealous cunt. And I don't know why he is that, because he's doing fine and it doesn't serve me. I get it. Maybe this will be the episode that finally buries it.
- [82:59]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah.
- [82:59]
Marc Maron
For me, it's my own fucking problem.
- [83:02]
Mike Birbiglia
You know, what was the. You know, it's, you know, cured me from jealousy. When I wrote Don't Think Twice was realizing I started to analyze jealousy. I was like, I had this realization, you can't be jealous of. Of. Of something someone has or that's not you. You can only be jealous of you if you can only truly be jealous if you would trade your life.
- [83:25]
Marc Maron
Right.
- [83:25]
Mike Birbiglia
One for one with that person.
- [83:26]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [83:27]
Mike Birbiglia
And if you think about the person you're jealous of, you're like, no, I would never fucking do that. Never trade my life one for one with that person.
- [83:32]
Marc Maron
That's interesting. Yeah. I find that, like, a lot of times I'm jealous of things that I wouldn't even be right for. They're not. Have nothing to do with me. And it's really a fundamental insecurity that I guess I wrestle with a lot still. I don't talk about it as much, but, yeah, it's not attractive. How. How's your sister Gina?
- [83:54]
Mike Birbiglia
Gina's good. Patty's good. Joe's good. I. I was very. I've been very blessed with, like, hashtag bless siblings that are cool.
- [84:04]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [84:05]
Mike Birbiglia
And, like, taught me a lot about life.
- [84:07]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [84:07]
Mike Birbiglia
Art and comedy.
- [84:09]
Marc Maron
Gina. It's so funny because, like, I knew Gina when she was Nina Rosenstein's assistant.
- [84:15]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah. In the 90s.
- [84:17]
Marc Maron
Right. And I was at doing. I was at Comedy Central doing Short Attention Man Theater. And this. This whole arc of Nina is the person that. She's my person at hbo. She's the one that pushed through my last two specials.
- [84:28]
Mike Birbiglia
She's really cool.
- [84:30]
Marc Maron
But, like, I knew her when I was a kid.
- [84:31]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah.
- [84:32]
Marc Maron
And there's been this whole life, and all of a sudden I land back with her, and it's so amazing and so good. I love doing the special at hbo because when I was coming up, that was what you. That's all there was.
- [84:42]
Mike Birbiglia
That's all there was. Yeah. That was the big thing.
- [84:43]
Marc Maron
And also, it's like a curated place, you know? You know, you're not going to. Your special is not going to drop. And then three days later you're like, I can't find it. Is it on the homepage?
- [84:51]
Mike Birbiglia
Totally.
- [84:52]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Yeah.
- [84:52]
Mike Birbiglia
I feel like I've been given the. The. I feel like the media universe has been evolved in a period of time where my. Where my comedy went from not having a home. Like, it never quite fit with HBO because HBO was mostly more edgy.
- [85:12]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [85:13]
Mike Birbiglia
And it never quite fit with Comedy Central because what I do is more theatrical and grown up. Right.
- [85:18]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [85:18]
Mike Birbiglia
And so I never really had a home until Netflix came along. And now I'm just like, oh, this is perfect.
- [85:24]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [85:25]
Mike Birbiglia
Because there's no commercials, thank God. And it reaches everybody and the people who need to find it, find it, right? And then those people are fucking super fans. Because it's like. So what I'm doing is really specific, right?
- [85:37]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I find that too specific. Different, Differently. But yeah. And then when you start to. It's interesting when you start to build a fan base and you see them out there and like, I look at them, I'm like, how are you people? The people, like. Because like, you're gonna manifest what you honestly are.
- [85:54]
Mike Birbiglia
Yeah, of course.
- [85:55]
Marc Maron
And mine are all. They're all grown up people. They're good people. But some of them look much more well adjusted than me. But I'm glad I entertained them.
- [86:02]
Mike Birbiglia
But yeah, I always have that when people come up to me in Brooklyn and there's always just. It's. Whenever someone comes up, it's always like this pear shaped, middle aged ogre who's just like, I totally relate to everything you're saying. I'm like, oh, great. I. I look like that guy.
- [86:14]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah. Inside.
- [86:16]
Mike Birbiglia
Inside.
- [86:18]
Marc Maron
All right, good talking to you, man.
- [86:19]
Mike Birbiglia
Thanks, man. This is good. Thanks for having me.
- [86:26]
Marc Maron
There you go. We did okay, me and Mike again. His special, the Good Luck Life is now on Netflix. Hang out for a minute, folks. Hey, people. For Father's Day, we posted a new WTF collection for full Marin listeners. This one featuring dads. It's got stories about fatherhood from Matt Damon, Bill Burr, Jack Gallagher, John Glazer, Hank Azaria, Ron Funches, and a recent visit with Barry Marin. Do you remember this dog? Yep. You do? Penny. When did you have that dog? Oh, don't know. But I remember him. Penny, Penny, Penny, look at this. Eleanor. That's your mom, right? Yep. How about this one? That's grandma. Do you remember her? Yeah. Was she a nice lady? Yeah. She talked much. I remember her talking. Was Barney her husband? Yeah. Was he a character? I didn't know him. You didn't? He was dead already. I don't know. I don't remember. I love this picture. That's Ben, your dad. My dad looks good in that pic, huh? Yeah. You remember him talking much? Yeah, more or less. Remember, it was this. Look at this picture. Were you. That was when you were a lifeguard. Keppel Park. Probably. You're doing pretty good with this quiz of your life. It's a dementia test. That's the little dog, Penny? No, another one. Inky. Inky. To get that collection and new bonus episodes twice a week, sign up for the full Marin. To sign up, go to the link in the episode description or go to wtfpod.com and click on WTF Plus. And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by Acast. And now I will I'll do a little guitar that's a little clunky, but again, I love you, John Lennon. It sa boomer lives monkey and lavanda cat angels everywhere.