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- [00:02]
Marc Maron
So it's happening, people. The Bad guys. And I'm one of them. Get ready for The Bad Guys 2 from DreamWorks Animation. I love being Mr. Snake. It's one of the more fun jobs I've had in show business. I like working with Craig Robinson, Sam Rockwell, Awkwafina, Anthony Ramos, Natasha Leone on this one, everybody. It's just. It's a blast. Especially when we can all get into the same room and kind of work it out together. Natasha plays my love interest in this one. I tell you, it is kind of an exciting thing to have parents who know me from me say that their kid loves Mr. Snake. I'm crossing generations with my Snake voice. Yeah. Get tickets now for The Bad Guys 2. In theaters August 1st. Lock the gate. All right, let's do this. How are you? What the. What the Buddies? What the Nicks? What's happening? I'm Mark Marin. This is my podcast. Welcome to it. This is the home stretch coming in for landing. How. How's everybody? You okay? You holding up? I. I gotta be honest with you. I do so much better when I talk to other people, man. I don't know if I'm left to my own devices in my own head. It doesn't. It's not a great situation currently. I know. Look, I know a lot of you have listened to me over the years. You've heard me go through things. You've heard me transcend some things you can see probably better than me. The things that are still there. The remaining patterns. The spiral of circular thought. Maybe the. What is it? The diameter? Is it. The diameter spreads out? Is that it? What's it? The radius is the one from the center to the edge, and the diameter is the whole thing. Maybe the diameter of each spiral spreads out kind of like an expanding universe. But they're still there, man. They're still fucking there today. And I don't know if any of you can relate to this. Today I woke up and I wanted to claw out of my body and I just wanted. You know, I just don't. Some days. Usually food related. These are the deep ones. These are the deep issues. The deep down body image, food, fat, slash. You're a gross spiral. Definitely the most existentially rooted one. And it's just odd. I go through these times where. Look, I don't know why, and I'm not bragging, but Men's Health wants to do a story on me, all right? So that means they want to do some photos of me, and I don't know what that Means I don't have a six pack. I don't have. You know, I'm in good shape. I look all right. I talked about this before. I know, but it's. It's coming up and there's some part of me, and I guess I just have to take notice when this happens. I know I've got this shoot in a couple of days, and I don't know why I'm happy to do it, but, you know, I'm not going to be doing any shirts off kind of things. I mean, I'm not going to be any. Doing any workout pictures. I don't even know if my regiment is on the level. I know. It works for me. Look, I know I'm fit, but come on, dude. It's a lot of pressure. I've been avoiding abs my entire life with the. With the belief that someday I'll have them. But that's, you know, that's kind of. I know that's not going to happen because a couple of reasons. I don't have the discipline to do that, you know, both on a dietary level or on an exercise level. I exercise. I got muscles. I'm in good shape. I eat well. Don't feel great, hardly ever, but I don't think it's dietary. And I'm going to be 62 in September, but still there's this thing hanging over me, which is a men's health profile. I'm like, okay, it's fine. What fucking difference does it make? Just tell them what you eat, tell them what your exercise regimen is, and answer the questions about your life that they want to hear. No problem. But the point is, is now it's days away and I've been plowing through a fucking pint of ice cream two nights in a row. Yesterday I had leftover chili from 4th of July, but I didn't have any cornbread. So me and Kid are eating this chili with gonna. And I'm like, well, I can make cornbread. Takes two seconds. So now I got a fucking tray of cornbread in there that I'm just eating. You know, there's no way to lie about how much cornbread you've eaten or cake. When the whole tray or whole cake pan is right there, you can see it slowly go away, Just taking slivers at a time, thinking like, oh, this is cool. But any way you slice it, literally, you'll see it's fucking gone in three days. And that's all gone into your fat face. Sorry, that's wrong. Into your dumb hole. How's that? Better. So basically what I'm saying is some part of me knowing that this is coming up, I want to make myself as miserable as possible in the days leading up to that. So that's happening. Pretty fun. Pretty fun day.
- [05:20]
Jenna Friedman
Look.
- [05:20]
Marc Maron
On the show today, I talked to Jenna Friedman. I've known Jenna a long time. She does stand up. She was a producer at the Daily Show. She was a writer on Letterman. She was one of the writers on Borat 2, which got her an Oscar nomination. She's got a. A couple of specials out there, and she'll be doing a new special at the Edinburgh Fringe in Scotland next month. Yeah. And we haven't talked in a while, and I. I don't think. I think we're through the tension, but, yeah, I mean, we had a nice conversation. Also. I'm back at Largo for a comedy and music show on Wednesday, July 23, and I'll be in New York at the 92nd Street Y in New York City for a Q and a on Thursday, July 31, following a sneak preview of my HBO special. Tickets for both shows are at wtfpod.com tour and one other thing. Our old buddy, the great Eddie Pepitone has a new special out starting today. It's called Eddie Pepitone the Collapse. And you could get it at Veeps. Yeah. Just want to claw out of my body. And I'll bring that energy with me to the photo shoot for Men's Health. That'll be. That'll be awesome. Just me hunched over, sucking in my stomach that I don't really have, but I feel like I have. But it's probably not real, but I can't tell because I have body dysmorphia. And it doesn't matter if I feel it. It's real, right? I know it's probably not real, but this is the only one that I really commit to. If I feel it, it's real. The flab, the chubs, the stuff hanging over. You can't really see it, but it doesn't matter. This is my issue. This is the one that stays. This is the one that stays. Fuck. Oh, my God. And then I had a. Had to take the cat to the vet today. I'm looking for new solutions for Charlie. So I had to take Sammy to the vet today just for a checkup. And turns out Sam is a stocky little fucker and he's pretty strong. And Sam and I, we get along fine, but he doesn't. He's not. He's a cat. Cat. He likes cats. He doesn't like me that much. He likes me, okay. But it's very erratic and spontaneous and a little awkward when he shows affection. And I think he's kind of. I think he's kind of dumb. But, you know, when he focuses, he's like. He can move. Like he's like all cat but like just sitting around. He looks kind of dumb and he's kind of not mopey, but he always looks a little concerned and, you know, it's very awkward. I know. I don't know if he likes to be touched or where to touch him. It's just. He's one of those cats, man. But he's tough, dude. Like, I had to take him to the vet. Also, like, very adventurous. He's the only cat the. Once or twice I've left the door open, he's fucking out. He's not running around. He's just sort of like, dum dee dummy, what's going on out here? Dum dum. But look, I love Sam. I have. We have. We share space and we understand each other and I think he's. I get a kick out of him, but I had to take him to the vet for a checkup and I put the. I put the crate out. I've gotten a lot better at getting cats in crates since the fire when I had to really man up to it. Not around, you know, you do need the focus. But I woke up to put him in the crate and I put him in the crate and that guy just like, like, like almost Herculean cat strength just bolted out of it. Like I couldn't even grab him. But it was strong. It was surprisingly strong. And I'm like, well, there goes that vet visit. That's not happening. But about half an hour later, because he is kind of dumb, I think it was pretty far behind him already. And I just scooped him up and I put him in and you know, I had a towel in there and he's bitching and he's crying and he's kind of flailing around. It was like, God damn it. I just. I've been doing this my entire adult life. Bringing one fucked up cat or another to the goddamn vet and all the anxiety that that induces and it kind of sealed the deal. I was going to take Charlie out to New Mexico with me when I go out there for a week and just so he wouldn't be home causing trouble and beating up on my other cats and shitting or whatnot. But after this, this ride, this short Ride with Sammy. I was like, fuck that, dude. I don't want to take him on the plane. I don't want to walk him through security. I have no idea. I have to. I ordered a carrier, a travel carrier, and I'll. I'll start trying to break Charlie in, but nonetheless. So I'm driving with Sam, and he's just. He's not howling, but he's not happy. And he's all up. And then, like, I smell shit in the car, and I'm like, God damn it. So I got to pull on the way and see if he shit in the car, which means I got to reach in and hope he doesn't get out and start jumping around the car. I didn't have a fucking paper towel, so I got to pick up this lump of cat shit with my bare hands and throw it into the parking lot, and then close up the goddamn cage and bring him to the fucking vet. So much drama and anxiety. It's amazing. I didn't get killed on my way over there, but I've dealt with all of it. I've taken cats on planes. I've walked cats through security. I've driven them to vets. I've lost cats and in the wild and gotten them back. I have freaked out about cats in every way possible. I've dealt with every cat disaster that's possible inside a house. I've put two cats down. Being in the room with them, I know it all. But God damn it, just driving a cat to the fucking vet, man. I was more worked up than Sammy was by the time we got there. And aggravated and already not feeling great in my body. But I get it, man. I am, like, the same way. The amount of anxiety, aggravation, you know, just kind of like my pants. Not literally before. I've got to do something that seems scary or. Or. Or I'm not used to. I'm the same way, to the point where I don't even want to do it. Sammy didn't have a choice. I generally don't have a choice either. But you get right up to the edge of that, where you're just sort of like, I want out of this box of me. I'm gonna right in my pants because of how aggravated and frightened and mad I am. I'll do that just to spite me. I don't want to do this. And then you do it, and you're kind of even happy to be there. You know, it's nice. New, new experience, new environment, new people. And then, you know, you're on your way home, you're like, well, that wasn't so terrible. Then why? Why? Why put yourself through that shit, Mark? Why do it? This episode is brought to you by Squarespace and our website, wtfpod.com is also brought to you by Squarespace. It has been for years. And Squarespace makes it easy to make a beautiful website and get all the tools that'll help you engage with your audience. They have a completely new design system, blueprint, AI. And that's where you'll get started. Build your online presence from the ground up with a professional layout and style options, and get to work on all the added features that will make your site a place where customers and fans can get everything they want. Make checkout seamless with simple but powerful payment tools. Set up a paywall to sell memberships or exclusive content. Even get access to stuff people can download right from the site. Go to squarespace.com wtf for a free trial, and when you're ready to launch, use the code WTF to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. That's squarespace.com WTF offer code WTF. Get started today. So look, Jenna Friedman, as I mentioned before, I've known her for years. Comedian, writer, producer. She'll be at the Edinburgh Fringe in Scotland with her show, Jenna Friedman, motherfucker. That's August 8th through 24th. You can get tickets@jennafridman.com so I was telling you that, like in this new special, not unlike the last one I did, I kind of had sections and there was like 15 minutes up front that were specifically political. And what I was gonna say because you, you know, kind of swim in the same waters. Is that, is that an analogy? It's very, it's. It's tricky to find a tone, especially if you want to come back from it, that is not slightly condescending and self righteous.
- [13:51]
Jenna Friedman
Absolutely. So, yeah, how do I say, how do I respond without sounding self righteous and condescending?
- [13:59]
Marc Maron
But, you know, I had to kind of, like, figure it out. I had to work it out, because I knew. Not that necessarily, I think that what I'm doing is for everybody, because it clearly is. But, you know, given the state of politics and the amount of fear on behalf of vulnerable and left leaning and even just Democrats or anybody, that you have to ground what you're doing in that community. And I think it's still for everybody, but you have to represent.
- [14:31]
Jenna Friedman
You're saying the audience. People are just fearful of what's going on right now.
- [14:35]
Marc Maron
They're Terrified. But because it's a special, I wanted to read that people aren't gonna be like, oh, fuck this, you know, like whoever else, you know, I don't want to listen to politics or I don't like this guy.
- [14:48]
Jenna Friedman
Right.
- [14:49]
Marc Maron
So to find some just tonal middle ground, not, not material wise, but just a way of presenting that is a little more kind of like just a given as opposed to.
- [15:00]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah.
- [15:00]
Marc Maron
Was tricky.
- [15:01]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah.
- [15:01]
Marc Maron
Do you ever think about that?
- [15:05]
Jenna Friedman
I don't know. I don't. I think part of my problem is I don't think about that.
- [15:10]
Marc Maron
Oh yeah.
- [15:11]
Jenna Friedman
I just kind of. Do I just kind of say what I want to say. I wish I thought about. I wish I was wired to think about the audience more.
- [15:21]
Marc Maron
Well, yeah, it's not like obviously I'm not pandering kind of guy, but I did want it to. Cause I wanted to ease into this other part where I knew I was just going to be not so much lighthearted, but more focused on just like the comedy of a story that just hits. So I just decided to. To change the tone a little bit, to just make it more kind of like, hey, this is what's happening. As opposed to like, we're fucked. And these guys, you know, there's a little of that in there.
- [15:50]
Jenna Friedman
I think I haven't done a special in this moment. I think we're in a particularly challenging moment.
- [15:57]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [15:58]
Jenna Friedman
And I think your impulse is correct.
- [16:02]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [16:03]
Jenna Friedman
In terms of broadening out and not alienating people who might benefit from listening to you.
- [16:09]
Marc Maron
Sure. Yeah. And. But I said, I said, look, I'm gonna try to be entertaining now. I don't think it is necessarily the reason I started doing comedy, but I think I can.
- [16:20]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah.
- [16:21]
Marc Maron
And I did it. So it just. But I knew what I was up against and I did take some pretty solid shots.
- [16:27]
Jenna Friedman
But even when you say solid shots, what do you mean? At politicians or at.
- [16:34]
Marc Maron
Well, like without it becoming too, look, you've got all these talk show hosts who are doing one liners about Trump or whatever, but to even talk in the arena that we're still in this sort of two party situation that's resolvable in the old way, I think is it's not ignorant and it's not even irresponsible. It's just stupid. But that's all they know how to do. So instead of just mentioning names, I wanna make sure this stuff has some legs. So it's not this dated thing hinged to a thing that happened.
- [17:12]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I never Thought it was him specifically. It's the whole. It's everything that kind of enabled this moment to happen. It was so clear from. You know, I was on the campaign trail in 2015 working on a movie, and I saw him. I was seated behind him, actually. I was working on this silly movie with these guys called the Good Liars.
- [17:32]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [17:32]
Jenna Friedman
And we saw the moment, the New Hampshire primary, when he became a viable political candidate.
- [17:43]
Marc Maron
Horrible moment.
- [17:44]
Jenna Friedman
It was really scary because. So I was in this movie, and it was a docu style unscripted comedy about these two guys who were pretending to be Trump supporters before Trump supporters were even really a thing. Okay. So before I even get into it, I'm actually, like, very in my head talking about Trump right now.
- [18:06]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [18:07]
Jenna Friedman
I think I posted about this, but I had a situation a couple weeks ago. Did you?
- [18:12]
Marc Maron
Oh, at the border in Canada. Yeah. Cause I was. You know, I went to Canada after you, and I was expecting something, but nothing happened to me.
- [18:19]
Jenna Friedman
That's what a couple other people said. I know it was my own fault. I was coming back and I had my guard down and I had offered up that I was a comedian.
- [18:26]
Marc Maron
This is American Customs coming back into this.
- [18:29]
Jenna Friedman
American Customs. But in Vancouver, right?
- [18:32]
Marc Maron
No. Yeah, I know that place.
- [18:33]
Jenna Friedman
I didn't know that American Customs met you in Vancouver.
- [18:35]
Marc Maron
Yeah, they're on that. Yeah, they're all. It's easier. But, like.
- [18:38]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah, so I had my guard down. I thought it was literally just airport security asking me questions to make sure that I wasn't getting paid under the table or something when they were like.
- [18:48]
Marc Maron
What were you doing up in Canada?
- [18:50]
Jenna Friedman
And I said, I was there performing comedy at ted, which already sounds like a lie. And then he said, were you working or did you get. You know. And I just was like, no, it was unpaid, which is also a whole other issue. And then he said, you're a comedian? And I said, yes. And he said, what do you joke about? And this is going to make me sound really stupid, but I'm fine with it. I actually said everything other than airport security. I just wasn't even thinking that he.
- [19:16]
Marc Maron
Was a customs guy. Yeah.
- [19:18]
Jenna Friedman
And he didn't even react. He just kind of stared at me. And then he's like, what do you joke about? And I looked at his shirt and it said, U.S. customs.
- [19:28]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [19:28]
Jenna Friedman
And before I could respond, because I didn't know what I was gonna say, he asked, do you make fun of politicians?
- [19:33]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [19:34]
Jenna Friedman
And I said, no, because Trump's a businessman.
- [19:41]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [19:42]
Jenna Friedman
And he was like, go ahead. And he Let me through. And it was this weird moment where I just thought, like, that's the craziest thing I've ever been asked, really, as an American citizen with an American passport, going back into my own country.
- [19:54]
Marc Maron
But do you think, like, you know, you thought, you felt that his tone was that of policy and not curiosity, do you know what I mean? Because like, those guys, a lot of times they just need to make a joke.
- [20:06]
Jenna Friedman
I don't think he was being flirty or jokey.
- [20:09]
Marc Maron
No.
- [20:10]
Jenna Friedman
I think he was literally just following orders. Also. That's, that's, that feels like a question. What if I had said yes?
- [20:19]
Marc Maron
To what?
- [20:20]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah, yeah, I joke about politicians. Is that illegal? What if I'd said that?
- [20:23]
Marc Maron
Well, I mean, I would have said it. Yeah, of course. What else are we going to joke about?
- [20:27]
Jenna Friedman
I, I don't know. I wanted.
- [20:29]
Marc Maron
You felt like I wanted to get.
- [20:30]
Jenna Friedman
Home to my child. I had a flight to catch.
- [20:33]
Marc Maron
Yeah. I, because I've been asked that. I don't know, like, you know, if I've been asked specifically, like, what do you joke about? But I could see how in that moment and in the moment we're living in, that could feel like a threat.
- [20:48]
Jenna Friedman
Do you joke about politicians? I just channeled my like high school age self with my like coming home to my mom and being like, have you been drinking with your friends? I was just like, no.
- [20:57]
Marc Maron
Interesting.
- [20:58]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah, it didn't, that's, that feels, that feels like a normal question. Some, for sure.
- [21:03]
Marc Maron
I mean, I like sometimes they, it's a very weird, stunted job, those guys. And you know, they, they, they're, they're void, they're devoid of personality. A lot of them when you meet them. And also they have this, this. You don't know what they're looking for. But I could see in the climate we live in that, that would seem like, you know, a check against you or whatever. But I've had them try to make conversations and it's never particularly fun, but sometimes I think it's just the nature of the personality of the job that makes them flat. But I. Look, I'm not going to doubt your fear or what it implied.
- [21:40]
Jenna Friedman
I've been asked a ton of things going into other countries I've never been. And asked questions going back into the country that I was born.
- [21:48]
Marc Maron
Oh, I, well, I, well, I, well, I have, but I, but I understand.
- [21:53]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah, Yeah. I just, maybe I was on edge. I was, I was hanging out with like Carol Caldwell or whatever, however you pronounce her last name. One of the Whistleblowers for Cambridge Analytica. And I just was, like, thinking about this a lot.
- [22:05]
Marc Maron
Look, there's no reason not to be paranoid, you know, and there's no reason, you know, but, I mean. And now, within the last week, he's gonna investigate celebrities. But, look, it's a scary time, and there's no reason not to have that kind of fucking reaction to it.
- [22:23]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah.
- [22:24]
Marc Maron
But you're okay? He made it back?
- [22:26]
Jenna Friedman
No, I'm fine. It wasn't ever about me.
- [22:28]
Marc Maron
I just felt like the times, they are changing.
- [22:31]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah. It felt like a scene in the Handmaid's Tale in a flashback.
- [22:34]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Yeah.
- [22:35]
Jenna Friedman
It didn't feel. I. I fully understand my privilege. I wasn't afraid. It just felt ominous. The first thing I did after I texted a friend of mine who is not. Who doesn't look like Ann Romney, she's not white. And she was also at ted, and I just said, just FYI, don't tell them you're a comedian.
- [22:52]
Marc Maron
Oh, really?
- [22:53]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah.
- [22:54]
Marc Maron
I've always found that that question in the past has been just their awkward way of making conversation, but it sounds a little different when it becomes specific.
- [23:05]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah.
- [23:06]
Marc Maron
How is the mother thing going?
- [23:08]
Jenna Friedman
How's the mother thing going? I don't identify as a mother. I feel like that term is. No, it's so weird. It wasn't something that I wanted. It just never. I got to, like, 39.
- [23:20]
Marc Maron
How old's the kid?
- [23:21]
Jenna Friedman
Two and a half.
- [23:22]
Marc Maron
Yeah, the best.
- [23:24]
Jenna Friedman
He's the best.
- [23:24]
Marc Maron
Yeah. What's his name?
- [23:27]
Jenna Friedman
I'll tell you.
- [23:28]
Marc Maron
Oh, okay.
- [23:29]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah, just. Yeah, he's the best. He's so funny and cool, and I love him so much, and I'd feel so cliche, and I feel like I.
- [23:39]
Marc Maron
What do you mean? You feel cliche or just.
- [23:41]
Jenna Friedman
I don't know.
- [23:43]
Marc Maron
Parenting changes people.
- [23:44]
Jenna Friedman
I mean, I don't know if it. Yeah. I don't know if it changed me or whatever, but he's just. I just feel very lucky.
- [23:50]
Marc Maron
And you love him.
- [23:52]
Jenna Friedman
I love him.
- [23:52]
Marc Maron
And you feel connected to him and you miss him when he's. When you're away?
- [23:56]
Jenna Friedman
Well, I don't know. I mean, I guess I miss him, but I do love him. I'm. I. I've gone away from him a little bit, but, yeah, I. I totally miss him. It's not even that I miss him. It's just like, when I'm with him, my whole body feels, like, peaceful and calm.
- [24:08]
Marc Maron
When you're with him?
- [24:09]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah.
- [24:09]
Marc Maron
Oh, that's nice.
- [24:11]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah, he's just. He's. He's He's.
- [24:13]
Marc Maron
Make sure you let him become his own person.
- [24:14]
Jenna Friedman
Of course, I understand. I understand the history of Jewish mothers and the burden I have.
- [24:20]
Marc Maron
I'm saying that as.
- [24:21]
Jenna Friedman
Experience the cross to bear. No, I understand that.
- [24:24]
Marc Maron
Boundaries.
- [24:25]
Jenna Friedman
I know, but not yet. No, not yet.
- [24:28]
Marc Maron
But are you, like. What is your mothering? What have you learned in terms of. Because I don't have them.
- [24:36]
Jenna Friedman
I don't have them either. I just have one.
- [24:38]
Marc Maron
No, I get it. But in terms of the learning curve, decisions you've made against your instincts, what are they? Do you know what I mean? Sometimes I think, whether it's over protection or negotiating things that you should probably let them do on their own, that.
- [24:54]
Jenna Friedman
Kind of stuff, it's very hard for me to set boundaries.
- [24:57]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [24:58]
Jenna Friedman
He's the only man I've never. The only guy I've never been able to, like, say no to. And I don't want him to be entitled. So I. You know, we give him, like, this little timeout where if he just. Cause two and a half, they're always pushing you. And so we have this little chair where he can, like, read a book in. If he's really bad and just keeps. He's not bad. He's wonderful. But we've only put him in the chair.
- [25:22]
Marc Maron
That's the punishment.
- [25:23]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah, we'll put him in a chair.
- [25:24]
Marc Maron
Punishment, chair.
- [25:25]
Jenna Friedman
Well, just the idea of being in timeout makes him sad. We're like, you can read a book in timeout, and we'll just put him in there for, like, two minutes. It's just on principle. We have to be like, you can't. If we tell you not to do something, you have to listen.
- [25:38]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Is it sinking in?
- [25:40]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah, he's really, really great.
- [25:42]
Marc Maron
Oh, good.
- [25:44]
Jenna Friedman
I mean, I don't know any other kids. Yeah, but he's just. He's awesome.
- [25:49]
Marc Maron
What do you mean? I don't know any other kids?
- [25:51]
Jenna Friedman
I mean, I know his friends. You'll appreciate this. They all have names of, like, Jewish men from the 30s. They're all like, Seymour, Sandy, Sidney.
- [25:59]
Marc Maron
Any hymens?
- [26:00]
Jenna Friedman
Maury? No hymens. My son is named Hyman. After.
- [26:05]
Marc Maron
After.
- [26:06]
Jenna Friedman
Not even.
- [26:07]
Marc Maron
Yeah. It's too many steps to get back there.
- [26:10]
Jenna Friedman
I know.
- [26:12]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Well, that's good. I mean, at least you're adjusting to it. But you still don't like to identify as a mother necessarily.
- [26:19]
Jenna Friedman
I don't know. It's so complicated. I kind of feel and. Did you just yawn?
- [26:24]
Marc Maron
No, no. I took a deep breath.
- [26:27]
Jenna Friedman
Okay, well, that's similar. No, it's not okay.
- [26:33]
Marc Maron
What is complicated about identifying as a mother? What do you think it takes away from you? I mean, I watched a special.
- [26:39]
Jenna Friedman
You watched Lady Killer?
- [26:41]
Marc Maron
Yeah. And that.
- [26:43]
Jenna Friedman
What?
- [26:44]
Marc Maron
Why are you saying it?
- [26:47]
Jenna Friedman
Did you like it?
- [26:48]
Marc Maron
Yeah, I like it. You know, look, you do a thing where you're like one time the thing that, you know, that always sticks with me about. When I did a half hour comedy special for HBO years ago, Jim Walcott of the New Yorker, he said something like, you know, Marin is good, but he tends to hit the. I don't remember what the analogy was. Like the fairground bell a little too much. Like there is a weight to, you know, how you do stand up and what you talk about and, you know, as funny as it. As it is, you know, it's still all pretty heavy.
- [27:27]
Jenna Friedman
Well, buckle up because that special is hard for me to watch.
- [27:32]
Marc Maron
Why? Because you're pregnant?
- [27:35]
Jenna Friedman
So I found out my mom was sick like the day before.
- [27:38]
Marc Maron
Oh, really? Yeah.
- [27:41]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah. And I. There's a pocket knife here that I'm just gonna focus on anytime I feel like I get emotional.
- [27:47]
Marc Maron
Sure. Just don't use it.
- [27:48]
Jenna Friedman
I know.
- [27:49]
Marc Maron
On yourself or me.
- [27:51]
Jenna Friedman
It's just such a. It's such a, like, macabre object. So it's just centering me. But. Yeah.
- [27:59]
Marc Maron
The day before you taped.
- [28:00]
Jenna Friedman
You found out I found she was sick.
- [28:01]
Marc Maron
And like, what?
- [28:03]
Jenna Friedman
Well, we didn't know it was pancreatic, but.
- [28:04]
Marc Maron
Oh, my God.
- [28:05]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah.
- [28:06]
Marc Maron
It's the worst one.
- [28:07]
Jenna Friedman
I know.
- [28:07]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [28:08]
Jenna Friedman
And so when I. When I like, I just, you know.
- [28:11]
Marc Maron
You were holding in all that. I used to have queen accident.
- [28:14]
Jenna Friedman
No, I don't want. I like, I really don't like to cry in front of my co workers. And it's so funny because I like, I can't. I watched Sarah Silverman special postmortem. So good.
- [28:27]
Marc Maron
Yeah, it was great.
- [28:27]
Jenna Friedman
And it reminded me because so many people are doing stand up comedy now. And then I look at Sarah and I'm like, she is. She's such a pro.
- [28:35]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [28:35]
Jenna Friedman
And she's so composed and it's. Her jokes are just perfectly mapped out.
- [28:40]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [28:41]
Jenna Friedman
And I'm working on a new hour where I'm trying to excavate these feelings and it's just been of grief.
- [28:49]
Marc Maron
Your mom passed away.
- [28:51]
Jenna Friedman
Oh, yeah. So, yeah, she died like six weeks later.
- [28:55]
Marc Maron
Wow. That's fucking horrible. Well, I'm sorry for your loss. So you're. When you watch that, it's not. It's not about the material as much as what you were kind of keeping in yeah.
- [29:08]
Jenna Friedman
And the material, I'm proud of it. I didn't really get to workshop it as much as I'd wanted to because it was during COVID and I was seven months pregnant.
- [29:18]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [29:18]
Jenna Friedman
But so there were a couple jokes, if you listen closely. There's one joke about, like, I also was shooting a true crime show at the same exact time, which is so funny to me, but because I was just, like, so pregnant and having to read a crime scene.
- [29:34]
Marc Maron
Do you think you would have gotten pregnant if it wasn't Covid?
- [29:37]
Jenna Friedman
Oh, I know where you're going with that. We can talk about that.
- [29:40]
Marc Maron
I'm not going anywhere with it.
- [29:41]
Jenna Friedman
No. Covid fully domesticated me. I just come off of Edinburgh in 2019. I was about to tour my hour.
- [29:50]
Marc Maron
What was the name of that show?
- [29:51]
Jenna Friedman
Miscarriage of Justice. It was a political show. Did well in Edinburgh. Edinburgh. Sorry, I can't pronounce it. And I was about to tour it, and then the pandemic happened. And then. Yeah, I.
- [30:02]
Marc Maron
It's interesting how the Europeans like American political comedy much more than Americans.
- [30:06]
Jenna Friedman
Well, because it's like novelty to them. And they're so curious what is going. They don't. It's not as personal, and they don't have the fatigue that we have.
- [30:14]
Marc Maron
And also, they don't hear it from that side. I mean, what. They're, you know, you know, Europeans in relation to, you know, resistance and what they've been through. Every country has been through at least two of these fuckers, right? So, you know, the language of resistance is something they can lock into. But here, it's like, you know, these. Why didn't they shut up?
- [30:36]
Jenna Friedman
Right? We're so. We are so naive as a country. I mean, we're changing. It used to be that I would always do better in the UK because my comedy, more than political, is just dark. And they have a darker comedic sensibility than we do over here. But we're catching up.
- [30:50]
Marc Maron
It's gotten more political, I think, over time.
- [30:53]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah, but I just mean more. I don't even mean political. I just mean dark.
- [30:56]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [30:58]
Jenna Friedman
But, yeah, in my special, there's like this one joke about. It's not so not funny, but I didn't realize that one of the leading causes, like, the leading cause of death for pregnant women is homicide.
- [31:09]
Marc Maron
Huh.
- [31:11]
Jenna Friedman
Which I was like, where's the joke? But it's like the joke that ended up in the special is like, that's the male version of abortion, you know?
- [31:20]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [31:21]
Jenna Friedman
I can't get an abortion. So you know, it's not lol, but it was funny to try it on, to try to keep working it out. But I knew that if I'd had like, a couple, like another month or two and just had been able to, like, work out the show, I would have gotten bits like that kind of LOL.
- [31:36]
Marc Maron
LOL's tricky with politics because it's like there's a difference between LOL and a laugh of recognition.
- [31:44]
Jenna Friedman
Right.
- [31:44]
Marc Maron
Do you know what I mean?
- [31:45]
Jenna Friedman
But is our. So we're, it's nice for you to say that, you know, that that's politics. I'm just talking about murdered more to pregnant women. That to me is like, dark. But it's also obviously political. But not everybody sees it as political.
- [31:58]
Marc Maron
Well, I mean, you frame it politically in the special.
- [32:03]
Jenna Friedman
I do, I do. I'm just trying to pretend I'm not a political comic.
- [32:07]
Marc Maron
Well, what.
- [32:08]
Jenna Friedman
Because I want to be able to give travel.
- [32:10]
Marc Maron
You want to be able to what?
- [32:12]
Jenna Friedman
Go get back into the country.
- [32:14]
Marc Maron
Oh, I thought you meant to tour.
- [32:16]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah, to tour and get back.
- [32:18]
Marc Maron
You're going to get back.
- [32:18]
Jenna Friedman
No, it's fine. I know.
- [32:20]
Marc Maron
You know, there. I, I mean, I, I, I think that. Well, look, I'm not going to speculate about the, the nature of whatever this authoritarian show is going to eventually turn into, but I don't know, like, I was thinking. So, okay, so you're working on excavating and verbally processing your grief in the experience of.
- [32:43]
Jenna Friedman
Yes. Yeah, yeah, I've been, yeah. So I have this new hour that I've been working out kind of since.
- [32:50]
Marc Maron
Were you doing it Dynasty and stuff?
- [32:52]
Jenna Friedman
I've been doing. I've been working out at Lyric.
- [32:54]
Marc Maron
Oh, yeah.
- [32:55]
Jenna Friedman
And then I've done a couple shows out of town.
- [32:59]
Marc Maron
So hard, it's so hard when you're dealing with, like. Because when I was talking about Lynn, you know, fairly quickly after she passed away, you've got to sort of warn your audience that, you know, these emotions aren't processed yet. So I don't know why I did. And I was like, look, you know me. This is what I'm going through. I'm looking for the humor in terms of. And I do it on stage. You're more of a writer person that, like, I find that if I get vulnerable to, on stage to a point where I can't handle it, I'll generally be funny. And usually that's, that's how I generate it.
- [33:30]
Jenna Friedman
Do you cry? Have you cried on stage?
- [33:32]
Marc Maron
Yes. During that? Definitely.
- [33:35]
Jenna Friedman
And how do you, do you think people Appreciated that vulnerability. Vulnerability.
- [33:39]
Marc Maron
Well, I mean, you know, you, I mean, you said it in the last special. I mean there is, you know, when, with grief in particular and even revisiting it after it's been some time, like if you get yourself into that place. Those tears are very specific. Do you know what I mean? They're tears of loss. And I think that those are the kind of tears that can't be held back. So you're not crying because you're mad or a baby cries or self pitying or whatever. But grief is a universal experience and a lot of people, they don't, they don't, they don't know how to, to share that. So I think that the crying is received in the way that humans are supposed to receive it.
- [34:26]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah, I've been, I was doing the show and I was blowing past the sad parts and I was able to just do the show and then I talked to a comedian friend whose father died when he was 22.
- [34:40]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [34:41]
Jenna Friedman
And I asked, you know, how long did it take you to like not cry all the time? And he said it took like five to seven years. Because I felt, I feel kind of.
- [34:50]
Marc Maron
Weird that I can't talk about it without crying. But, but it's like what I tried to do in relation to that was the way I framed it in my head especially because, you know, she died so out of the blue and tragically and quickly and you know, she was young is that, you know, you. There's like, I'm not the victim, she is, you know, what I'm experiencing is loss. And there's really nothing unusual about loss. It is as human as, you know, birth, death and all of that. It's just we don't have a cultural dialogue around it really or a way of emoting.
- [35:25]
Jenna Friedman
I would say the, I would say that you are the victim, that she's out like you're the victim. Her, the people who loved her are the victims. She's gone.
- [35:34]
Marc Maron
I don't see them as victims. I feel like somebody being taken out of life tragically and quickly in a surprising way.
- [35:41]
Jenna Friedman
I'm not saying she's not the victim. I'm just saying you're also.
- [35:45]
Marc Maron
Yeah, I didn't see it as victim ness because. And that was very helpful for me to put in place very early on. I just tried to frame it as like, look, I lost somebody. That is not, it's not a victim position, it's a human position.
- [35:58]
Jenna Friedman
Right.
- [36:00]
Marc Maron
And also to know in my heart that there's nothing unusual about this. Zero.
- [36:05]
Jenna Friedman
Right.
- [36:06]
Marc Maron
That this is a human experience that no one can get out of life. Not experiencing it. Everyone deals with loss.
- [36:13]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah.
- [36:14]
Marc Maron
It's like, it's guaranteed. It's the only thing that's guaranteed.
- [36:18]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah.
- [36:19]
Marc Maron
So on that level, despite the fact that we don't know what to do with the feelings or we're embarrassed or when you have uncontrollable feelings, it's too vulnerable, especially in public. But the truth is, if more people do that, we've had some language around this and it's actually fairly politically righteous to accept death and embrace grief and feel those feelings, because the entire capitalist system is driven by avoiding death or denying it.
- [36:51]
Jenna Friedman
Also, like, robots aren't going to replace someone who's just crying on stage.
- [36:58]
Marc Maron
Yeah, well, I don't. I think you. I mean, we should do some research on that. I'm sure that they've got some pretty sophisticated crying robots now. And I'm not sure there's not a lot of people on TikTok who aren't, you know, for all intensive intents and purposes, you know, robots who cry.
- [37:15]
Jenna Friedman
Right. AI chatbots and.
- [37:17]
Marc Maron
Or just people, you know, people who like.
- [37:20]
Jenna Friedman
Oh, correct.
- [37:21]
Marc Maron
You know that their shtick is the vulnerability racket.
- [37:25]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah.
- [37:26]
Marc Maron
But anyways. Well, I'm sorry for your loss and it's okay to cry. So how are you doing with the processing? How long has it been now?
- [37:32]
Jenna Friedman
A little over two years. I mean, I'm doing. I'm. I'm. I. It's fine. I just. Yeah, I'm going over there. I'm nervous about doing the show and.
- [37:44]
Marc Maron
Going over where?
- [37:45]
Jenna Friedman
To Edinburgh.
- [37:46]
Marc Maron
Oh, you're going there again. Oh, that's right, you told me.
- [37:49]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [37:50]
Marc Maron
So you don't have the show fully in place, but, you know, you get a little wiggle room with Edinburgh.
- [37:53]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah, I'm working it out. It's 90% there.
- [37:57]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Oh, good.
- [37:58]
Jenna Friedman
I'm heading over. I'm gonna do 18 shows in August. I know, I know.
- [38:05]
Marc Maron
Like, are they produced or you just go in there on your own, you gotta producer run around, hand out flyers and stuff.
- [38:11]
Jenna Friedman
I'm not gonna have to do that.
- [38:12]
Marc Maron
Good.
- [38:12]
Jenna Friedman
Thankfully.
- [38:13]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [38:15]
Jenna Friedman
But I probably will.
- [38:16]
Marc Maron
I met you in Scotland, I think.
- [38:18]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah.
- [38:19]
Marc Maron
Glasgow.
- [38:19]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah. That town is crazy.
- [38:21]
Marc Maron
Glasgow.
- [38:22]
Jenna Friedman
I remember at the stand, seeing there was like a hen party and that's a bachelorette party, or maybe they stopped having those or something.
- [38:31]
Marc Maron
Glasgow.
- [38:32]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah, but people. The woman got so drunk that she fell and knocked down, like the whole table with her and people just laughed.
- [38:43]
Marc Maron
There was more public vomiting than I'D ever seen in my life.
- [38:46]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah.
- [38:46]
Marc Maron
In that place. It's so funny, because what I remember about that trip was, you know, trying to talk you into going to business school.
- [38:55]
Jenna Friedman
What? I don't remember that at all.
- [38:57]
Marc Maron
That was the entire.
- [38:59]
Jenna Friedman
You were trying to tell me to go to business school.
- [39:01]
Marc Maron
No, we were walking around and, you know, I watch your show and I don't. I don't know how you watched me.
- [39:07]
Jenna Friedman
Do stand up and then you told. Wanted to.
- [39:09]
Marc Maron
No. You didn't know what to do. You were trying.
- [39:12]
Jenna Friedman
I was really young.
- [39:13]
Marc Maron
No, but you're trying to figure out because you got into Brandeis or somewhere. Yeah.
- [39:18]
Jenna Friedman
This is someone else.
- [39:20]
Marc Maron
No, it's not. You were like, literally, like, I don't know if I should pursue this or pursue business. I mean, we talked about it for a while.
- [39:27]
Jenna Friedman
Oh, I got into UCLA film school, but that wasn't. Then.
- [39:31]
Marc Maron
I don't know. We talked about it a lot.
- [39:32]
Jenna Friedman
I didn't apply to business school.
- [39:33]
Marc Maron
Well, you did not know if you wanted to stick with standup.
- [39:38]
Jenna Friedman
Really?
- [39:38]
Marc Maron
Yes. I don't know how old you were, but it was like you were like. You just didn't know if it was the right. I think you were just nervous about the security element.
- [39:49]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah, of course.
- [39:49]
Marc Maron
Yeah. But it was, like, on your mind.
- [39:52]
Jenna Friedman
Of course. Until you're making money doing comedy, you're thinking about making money doing comedy.
- [39:57]
Marc Maron
That's right. So. But I just remember the conversation, and I was sort of like, well, maybe, you know, you shouldn't do it. Cool. It wasn't because of your standup. I don't even think I'd seen it you yet.
- [40:06]
Jenna Friedman
Oh, that's cool.
- [40:07]
Marc Maron
I don't even know, like, how we knew each other at that time.
- [40:10]
Jenna Friedman
I remember performing at a show with you, and you were on the same show, and it was a basement show and there were like 10 people there.
- [40:18]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember that too, vaguely.
- [40:21]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah.
- [40:21]
Marc Maron
I remember we walked around a cemetery.
- [40:24]
Jenna Friedman
Oh, probably. I love cemeteries.
- [40:25]
Marc Maron
Yes. A big cemetery there.
- [40:27]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah, that makes sense.
- [40:28]
Marc Maron
Yeah. And then, you know, I just remember that you were just unsure, but you would have been. He's just at the beginning.
- [40:34]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah. You had just started doing wwf, the podcast. Yeah.
- [40:38]
Marc Maron
So crazy. So long ago.
- [40:41]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah.
- [40:42]
Marc Maron
And you're happy you chose the career you chose.
- [40:44]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah. You're such a dick.
- [40:48]
Marc Maron
I'm really not a dick. You want to make me a dick.
- [40:50]
Jenna Friedman
I don't want to make you a dick.
- [40:51]
Marc Maron
You just want to make me a dick.
- [40:52]
Jenna Friedman
I don't want to make you. No, you've evolved You've evolved.
- [40:55]
Marc Maron
I'm not.
- [40:56]
Jenna Friedman
You're not a dick. You're really. You're a veteran of. You're a wise.
- [41:02]
Marc Maron
Oh, come on. So. But, like, let's go through. So people know, because you're not necessarily. No one knows who you are, Jenna. And that's not me being a dick. You say yourself, they do it.
- [41:14]
Jenna Friedman
My business school.
- [41:17]
Marc Maron
Your secret business school.
- [41:19]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah.
- [41:20]
Marc Maron
But what did you do? You just. What you did. You didn't go into usc.
- [41:24]
Jenna Friedman
I got Letterman. Ucla.
- [41:27]
Marc Maron
Right.
- [41:28]
Jenna Friedman
Film school.
- [41:28]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [41:29]
Jenna Friedman
And.
- [41:30]
Marc Maron
And then I got Letterman out of New York. And that was when you were. That was like 2010, 2011.
- [41:36]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah.
- [41:37]
Marc Maron
How did that go? How'd you get that?
- [41:40]
Jenna Friedman
So I had. I think it was Jeff Garland. I opened for him and David Miner saw me.
- [41:47]
Marc Maron
Oh, right, right, right.
- [41:48]
Jenna Friedman
And then they submitted me. I sent in a packet. I didn't hear back. And then a year later.
- [41:54]
Marc Maron
A year.
- [41:54]
Jenna Friedman
They asked me to submit again. I submitted something overnight, and then I went in for the interview and they'd asked me, have you ever written for anyone? And the only person I'd. I just wrote some roast jokes for Jeff Ross.
- [42:13]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [42:14]
Jenna Friedman
And I realized I'd never. Like, I never had a job. How do you get hired if you don't have a job? And I just said, I. I wrote some roast jokes for Jeff Ross, and I didn't realize this would happen, but they called Jeff immediately, and Jeff sang my praises, and I got hired that day.
- [42:28]
Marc Maron
That's crazy. I know, but I remember, like. Cause there was a period there where we were friends until I decided that you were being condescending to me.
- [42:36]
Jenna Friedman
You were so mean. It's okay.
- [42:38]
Marc Maron
But it was a misunderstanding. You didn't think I was as insecure as I was?
- [42:42]
Jenna Friedman
I didn't think you were. I didn't think. My mistake. I didn't realize that you can be older and not be mature.
- [42:48]
Marc Maron
Yes.
- [42:49]
Jenna Friedman
You were twice my age, and I just thought you were wise and would.
- [42:52]
Marc Maron
Be twice your age.
- [42:54]
Jenna Friedman
Well, not anymore.
- [42:57]
Marc Maron
Okay.
- [42:58]
Jenna Friedman
Not twice. Fine. 20 years.
- [42:59]
Marc Maron
Okay, fine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You didn't realize that you could be a neurotic, immature, insecure person at my age at that time.
- [43:07]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah. Like 46. Who would.
- [43:09]
Marc Maron
Like, who would meet his friend who he met in Edinburgh and. And she was telling him about all the successes. Her successes. And you didn't even fathom the idea that I could be like, oh, fuck, I got nothing going on.
- [43:22]
Jenna Friedman
It wasn't my. That's how you heard it. I think I was having a hard time at it.
- [43:26]
Marc Maron
I Know, and I feel bad for it now. You were. And I. And I. And that was another part of my brain that's like, yeah, but you're Letterman.
- [43:33]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah, yeah. And I was just like, I. Yeah.
- [43:35]
Marc Maron
You were getting opportunities I never. I never ever got. But, yeah, I apologize for that. Thanks for being immature.
- [43:41]
Jenna Friedman
That's okay.
- [43:41]
Marc Maron
And, you know, and defensive. But I do remember because we went to the Chelsea restaurant and that place isn't there anymore. That was the best. That place that was open like all night. Like, it was on, like, you know what I'm talking about?
- [43:52]
Jenna Friedman
14.
- [43:53]
Marc Maron
Yeah, but so how long did you stay over there in New York in Letterman?
- [43:59]
Jenna Friedman
A year. And then there was a job, a field producer job at the Daily Show.
- [44:03]
Marc Maron
But was it. Was it rewarding? I mean, did you feel like that was the trajectory that you were meant to do?
- [44:08]
Jenna Friedman
No. I mean, it was so weird because by the time I got there, Dave was. It was like Weekend at Bernie's. He was just, like, checked out. Yeah, totally. Just going through the motions. There were a lot of. There was just a lot of politics and I didn't work with him at all. So it's hard to. You know, I got a lot of top tens on and a lot of, like, the things that we would submit on just like the kind of one liners. Yeah, I was successful getting those on, but it was just. It was a. And everybody was so demoralized at one point. I remember being nine months in and they would call these, like, emergency top 10 meetings where, like, Dave didn't like any of the top 10. So we just start all over. And everybody was running around and it was so stressful and I just giggled. Cause it felt so silly to me that it's not an.
- [44:55]
Marc Maron
You weren't in the culture.
- [44:56]
Jenna Friedman
We are. You know what I mean? Like, we're not in. We're not. Like, someone's not dying.
- [45:00]
Marc Maron
And you weren't in the culture long enough to realize the cult of personality.
- [45:03]
Jenna Friedman
I just didn't. And so I was laughing and I said something. I think it was Jeremy Weiner. And he's like. I was like, it's so. I don't know what I said, but Jeremy looked at me. He's like, you're part of us. You've been here for nine months. You're not.
- [45:16]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah. You're not an outsider.
- [45:18]
Jenna Friedman
An outsider. And it just was. But everybody there was so nice and. Yeah, it's so surreal, all these opportunities that you get because.
- [45:29]
Marc Maron
And then. How'd the Daily show happen?
- [45:32]
Jenna Friedman
Wyatt Cenac who I knew in Stand up, so that there was a field producer role open.
- [45:37]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [45:39]
Jenna Friedman
And I didn't know what that was. And I said. I was like, I'm a comic. It's not for me. And he, to his credit, was like, don't be an idiot. It'll teach you. You're basically a writer, director in the field. And I submitted for the job, I did this trial piece, and I got it. And to this day, that was. I mean, that was one of the best jobs I've ever had. John was a great boss, and I learned how to write and direct.
- [46:06]
Marc Maron
Oh, yeah.
- [46:06]
Jenna Friedman
Field segments.
- [46:07]
Marc Maron
How long were you there?
- [46:08]
Jenna Friedman
Three years. I left when John. I only wanted to, like, stay for one, just because I just really was, like, a comic and.
- [46:14]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [46:15]
Jenna Friedman
And then I just. I ended up staying till John retired.
- [46:17]
Marc Maron
So that's. It's interesting that, like, so you got these opportunities when you're, like, in your early 20s.
- [46:22]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah.
- [46:22]
Marc Maron
And so just the fact of them. Yeah. See, that would have been, you know, another mistake I would have made in my immature mind was that it wasn't really about ambition even. It was just about sort of having people recommend you. And you're like, why wouldn't I do this?
- [46:41]
Jenna Friedman
My whole career has been pretty scattered, and I just kind of. I take opportunities as they come, and I try to make the most of them.
- [46:47]
Marc Maron
Well, yeah, but that one for the Daily show really kind of paid off in terms of what you wanted to do with your life.
- [46:52]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah. I mean, the two shows that I had on the air that were my own would not have been as good as they were if I hadn't learned how to field produce.
- [47:02]
Marc Maron
Well, what was that one that you did with Kronberg?
- [47:05]
Jenna Friedman
Oh, that was a web series that was a live.
- [47:07]
Marc Maron
Was that during the Daily show or after?
- [47:09]
Jenna Friedman
Before, I think before and during.
- [47:11]
Marc Maron
And what was the angle on that web series?
- [47:14]
Jenna Friedman
I had seen a New York Times wedding video that looked so silly, and I just parodied it, and it was during Wedding Season, and we didn't say that it was a parody, so people thought it was real. And so it went viral.
- [47:26]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Did you get in trouble?
- [47:28]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah, they sent me a cease and desist letter, so we had to put, like, parody. But to me, it was so clear that it was a parody. And people just. I always overestimate people, I think.
- [47:39]
Marc Maron
Oh, yeah, people are dumb.
- [47:41]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah.
- [47:41]
Marc Maron
I didn't realize even smart people are dumb. It's kind of amazing. Some of the smartest.
- [47:45]
Jenna Friedman
I think we all got the memo now in this current moment, I'm not doing that anymore.
- [47:50]
Marc Maron
But I think what happens is that you can't, you know, you're dumb only because you can't adapt. Like, you know, there's a lot of things that make people dumb. It's like, you know, shifting to Gmail and then you expect like, you know, old people.
- [48:02]
Jenna Friedman
I haven't done that.
- [48:04]
Marc Maron
Yeah. So like, and then just like, I know from having a podcast for years and just having people after a certain age, like, I don't understand. Where do I get it? I'm like, on your phone. It's two clicks. Did you ever have to go through an old person's phone? My. You, your mom's.
- [48:25]
Jenna Friedman
It's fine, it's okay.
- [48:26]
Marc Maron
But like my mom's boyfriend before he lost his mind, like he wanted me to do something on his phone and he literally had I think a thousand open windows.
- [48:34]
Jenna Friedman
Right. I actually have that. I actually have that. I didn't. I don't even. I have a thousand open. That's me.
- [48:40]
Marc Maron
Do you. I have to. I can't. I don't like when my email has numbers.
- [48:44]
Jenna Friedman
Right, I understand that.
- [48:45]
Marc Maron
It's fucking annoying. I looked at Mikayla Watkins phone one time and she had like 1100 unopened emails. I'm like, what are you doing? You can't have that number there.
- [48:56]
Jenna Friedman
Right.
- [48:57]
Marc Maron
I don't know. So what were the shows that you did on your own? I can't remember. There's one for Adult Swim.
- [49:03]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah, yeah. It was called Soft Focus. And I just feel so lucky that we were given the opportunity to make that show.
- [49:12]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [49:12]
Jenna Friedman
I wish that those opportunities still existed.
- [49:16]
Marc Maron
Don't they exist? And I guess you can make them up in self generating. It just seems like everybody's just starting their own show business.
- [49:22]
Jenna Friedman
Everyone's doing their own thing. You have to.
- [49:23]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah. And what was that show?
- [49:26]
Jenna Friedman
It was. It was a couple specials. We were about to shoot a third one and then the Pandemic happened. But it ran. I did two. I did it in like 2018 and 2019.
- [49:37]
Marc Maron
Wow. The pandemic really fucked you on so many levels.
- [49:41]
Jenna Friedman
No, I mean it turned me into a mom.
- [49:45]
Marc Maron
Exactly.
- [49:47]
Jenna Friedman
It's great.
- [49:47]
Marc Maron
No, and wasn't there one other one?
- [49:50]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah, and then I had a true crime show, which is crazy how that.
- [49:53]
Marc Maron
Are you a true crime freak?
- [49:55]
Jenna Friedman
No, I was making fun of true crime on Conan. I was making fun of true crime. And this industry is such a cash cow that they were like, let's, you know, like, do you want to do a show? And so I did A little kind of development deal with amc. And then I got a show off of it.
- [50:10]
Marc Maron
How many episodes did you do?
- [50:11]
Jenna Friedman
Two seasons.
- [50:12]
Marc Maron
Oh, that's pretty good. Of how many?
- [50:14]
Jenna Friedman
Only 12 episodes. Six episodes each season. And it was intense. It was really intense. And I'm very proud of what we were able to do, and we infused some comedy into it, which I didn't think would be possible. But, yeah, I mean, it was. I don't know. It was cool to. There was one specific episode about this girl whose grandmother was murdered. Well, I should say allegedly. Sorry. Allegedly murdered by this guy. And then the guy checked himself into a mental hospital called a billboard defense attorney who convinced the jury that this woman had choked on his dick. And then he got away with it. And then not only was she murdered, she was made a punchline in the media because, of course, you know, granny chokes on dick.
- [51:10]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [51:10]
Jenna Friedman
And so. And being a comedian, you're handed a story like this, and people think it's easy. It's actually the most complicated story to make funny because it's like, you don't want to do dick jokes. You know what I mean? And you're like, how do I balance it? What do I. What do what? What do I do? And so I. I'm very proud of that episode because we were able to make a show that really reframed the narrative. I was worried about, will this episode be an ad for the defense attorney to get him more work if we do it wrong? And we got this grizzled veteran cop on, and she was like, everybody knows when it's like a sex crime, like, you just blame the victim. That's. That's what you do. It's called, like, the rough sex defense or the consent defense.
- [51:54]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [51:56]
Jenna Friedman
And it was really cool. And then I ended up talking to the defense attorney. He sat down with me, and I don't know how you prepare for interviews. I want to ask you next. I'm curious as to your process, but I really. A lot of times with interviews like that, I'll do a lot of research, and I ask questions, and then a lot of it is, like, improvise. And I was just trying to talk to him, but in this moment, I just was like, have you ever sucked a dick? And he was like, well, I don't know if I can answer that. And I was like, sorry to slut shame you. That's the defense attorney's job. And it really just kind of got hit home, like, what the kind of point was about. We also had a medical examiner on to say that like, you can't die that way. Like that's not an actual way to die. And also in the uk, consent offenses or rough sex offenses are illegal. You can't present them in court because they're not just not. You can't like accidentally kill someone during sex in that way. And so but they're still legal in the US So it did feel like a little bit that, like kind of without sounding like self righteous, like that advocacy comedy where you're like, hey, if we just knew that these were defenses, maybe we could outlaw them in states where they're just used to exonerate abusers or give them murderers or give them reduced sentences.
- [53:08]
Marc Maron
Yeah, so that's good. That's a great piece of work.
- [53:11]
Jenna Friedman
I know. And then the show and then. Yeah, we just ran for two seasons and I think.
- [53:15]
Marc Maron
Is that episode available somewhere?
- [53:17]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah, I mean, I can send it to you. Yeah.
- [53:19]
Marc Maron
What about for the people that are listening?
- [53:21]
Jenna Friedman
For the people that are listening, I can send it to you too. For the two guys jerking off to my lisp, I can send it to you too.
- [53:28]
Marc Maron
That's not my audience, but it's a lot of concerned, aggravated women.
- [53:35]
Jenna Friedman
Oh, I love you. I love women.
- [53:40]
Marc Maron
So that was one of those things where the style of the Daily show interrogation. Because you gotta have some balls to do that.
- [53:52]
Jenna Friedman
Yes.
- [53:52]
Marc Maron
And know you're going to do it. So the type of interviewing I do is not comparable to that.
- [53:57]
Jenna Friedman
How do you prepare for your interviews?
- [54:00]
Marc Maron
Well, for somebody like you, who I know for a long time, you know, I, I hope that we can, you know, connect as people. Like when I do these, my only hope is that I'll figure out in my mind some portal in, you know, that will either become thematic or not, but at the very least develop a genuine rapport that then can just move on its own. You know, I, I try to know as much as I can about people, but a lot of times it's not about what they're promoting or anything else, it's whether a, a real conversation happens. So that's all I'm looking for. I don't have questions generally unless it's somebody with a huge amount of work that they've done out of respect. You don't want to diminish someone who's a master of something. So. But generally I have to like the person.
- [54:51]
Jenna Friedman
Right.
- [54:52]
Marc Maron
And then, you know, hopefully it turns into a conversation.
- [54:55]
Jenna Friedman
Right.
- [54:56]
Marc Maron
That's my thing. Like, but for doing that kind of stuff, you have to know, like, I'm gonna do this question now.
- [55:02]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah, you have to know. You have to know how to. I mean, at the Daily show, we basically would go out with a script beforehand. And you good example was there was a really tricky piece. Sam B. Was a correspondent.
- [55:19]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [55:20]
Jenna Friedman
And it was on the fast food workers strikes.
- [55:22]
Marc Maron
Right.
- [55:24]
Jenna Friedman
All my pieces were pretty heavy. I got there at a point when John was just like, whatever you want to, whatever you care about, we can find a way to make it funny. And that has been my mantra ever since. I really do feel like you can kind of make anything funny. And so we wanted to do a piece about like income inequality and fast food worker strikes, but it's like in four minutes, four and a half minutes, you're trying to make a case against free market capitalism.
- [55:45]
Marc Maron
Right.
- [55:45]
Jenna Friedman
That's actually funny. How do you do that?
- [55:47]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [55:48]
Jenna Friedman
And we found this guy, this hedge fund guy who had been on the show. I think he predicted or he helped predict, like the 2008 crash. So he really liked John. And we asked him a series of questions. And one of the questions that Sam asked was, do you believe markets determine wages? Yes. Okay, question. Next question. Describe to me the type of person worth $2 an hour. And he said, I don't know what the PC term for R word is. And he said that on camera. And we aired it. And that then became the crux of the piece. Like it wasn't haha funny, but it was like, this is what we're talking about. This is why we don't want to live in a society where people are what they're worth. You're having disabled people worth $2 an hour. Do you want to live in that type of society? Because that's what free market capitalism with no regulations is. I'm not a Marxist. I'm just saying that's kind of that how we were able to.
- [56:44]
Marc Maron
That's great.
- [56:45]
Jenna Friedman
You know, articulate a point of view using either humor or just kind of hypocrisy or whatever you want to call it.
- [56:52]
Marc Maron
In terms of activism, which I think you do. Was this something you grew up with?
- [57:00]
Jenna Friedman
Hmm.
- [57:01]
Marc Maron
Like when you were in college, you know, what was your disposition?
- [57:06]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah, I mean, I was an anthropology major. I mean, I got into comedy the least funny way possible. I wrote a paper about it. It's so lame. It's so lame. I wrote like my.
- [57:16]
Marc Maron
Could you send that over to me too?
- [57:17]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah, No, I wrote a paper about comedy and that's how I got into it. It was like a. It was. I have a book out.
- [57:24]
Marc Maron
What was the thesis?
- [57:26]
Jenna Friedman
So I wrote about this in a book, so I have it. So it is out there.
- [57:29]
Marc Maron
If people are interested, it's a chapter in a book of yours. What's the book called?
- [57:32]
Jenna Friedman
Not Funny. Okay. I also, like. I know that. Okay. I titled the book Not Funny because I wanted to get a foreword by someone named Bill Cosby who wasn't Bill Cosby.
- [57:47]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [57:47]
Jenna Friedman
I thought that that would be funny. And I found someone and he wrote a foreword.
- [57:54]
Marc Maron
Who was that guy?
- [57:55]
Jenna Friedman
Just a random guy named Bill Cosby. I had to go. I had closed my Facebook account. I had to reopen Facebook and friend a bunch of Bill Cosbys to find. It took me so long to track down somebody who would do this. His name was William Cosby.
- [58:09]
Marc Maron
Okay.
- [58:10]
Jenna Friedman
Anyway, my editor rightfully nixed the idea.
- [58:13]
Marc Maron
Oh, after all that work.
- [58:14]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah, it's fine. But so I think Not Funny Forward by Bill Cosby really sells that the book is funny.
- [58:20]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [58:20]
Jenna Friedman
But just not funny as a title. I'm into it, but it feels more like Diatribe y than I wanted.
- [58:27]
Marc Maron
It was just essays.
- [58:28]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah.
- [58:29]
Marc Maron
And your paper.
- [58:32]
Jenna Friedman
It wasn't the paper. So the paper. There is an essay about how I wrote this paper. I did, like, an ethnography of Improv Olympic. That's how I got into comedy. I went to Improv Olympic. I showed up.
- [58:46]
Marc Maron
Could you define ethnography for me?
- [58:47]
Jenna Friedman
It's like a year. It's a research paper in a community, so in anthropology. And I talk about this in that. But a lot of anthropology is like the ethnographic method where you study a community. And a lot of it is really problematic because you had white people going over to foreign countries to study these indigenous populations and then, like, misinterpreting all.
- [59:08]
Marc Maron
Their customs with a colonial point of view.
- [59:10]
Jenna Friedman
Right.
- [59:10]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [59:11]
Jenna Friedman
So I wanted to study a community that I could actually assimilate into.
- [59:15]
Marc Maron
Okay.
- [59:15]
Jenna Friedman
And I was living downtown and this comedy theater was around the corner from me. I originally wanted to study women and women in standup in Chicago. And at the time, I was told there weren't that many. And there were. They just weren't like, on the north side, there's like, Patty Vasquez.
- [59:28]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [59:28]
Jenna Friedman
But there weren't a lot of women doing stand up comedy at the time. And so somebody said, you should check out Improv Olympic.
- [59:34]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [59:34]
Jenna Friedman
And I went there and I just fell in love. And that was like my gate. I just wanted to see classes. I was like, can I pay for a month pass to see classes? And Katie Rich, who went on to. I don't Know if you've ever talked to her, but she's hilarious and wrote for snl.
- [59:46]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [59:47]
Jenna Friedman
She was working in the Door and she's like, well, if you pay for. If you sign up for classes, you can see all the shows for free. It's a cult.
- [59:54]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [59:55]
Jenna Friedman
And I started to do that and I was sold. And so I kind of fell in love with this community where you could be your own writer, director, performer. Have you ever done improv?
- [60:03]
Marc Maron
No, not on that level.
- [60:05]
Jenna Friedman
Thinking of you doing improv makes me laugh.
- [60:07]
Marc Maron
Yeah. I've been dragged into improv situations.
- [60:10]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah.
- [60:11]
Marc Maron
No, but I've not done it like as a collaborative form.
- [60:15]
Jenna Friedman
It also always, every time I've seen it in la, it has lost its shine. I don't know if it's. Cause I've gotten older and I've been doing comedy, but when I started doing it in Chicago, it's. It was before improv was a punchline. It was before the Office and all these shows that utilized improv kind of went mainstream. And I just, I couldn't believe this was a thing that people did.
- [60:34]
Marc Maron
Well, I think it's like, you know, from talking to hundreds of people that, you know, a way into comedy as, you know, a writer, performer, producer, director, that, you know, standup was kind of sidelined years ago. I mean, I think that you get a more well rounded person and a less socially aggravated person, you know, out of collaborative theater work.
- [60:58]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah.
- [60:59]
Marc Maron
And the type of people that gravitate to it, in my experience, are a little better off as humans.
- [61:05]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah.
- [61:06]
Marc Maron
Than the gypsies that are, I guess you can't use that word anymore. The kind of wandering solo weirdos that are comics.
- [61:16]
Jenna Friedman
Right?
- [61:16]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [61:17]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah. So I. The paper ended up getting me, so I let somebody publish the paper on a comedy website. It circulated and Sharna Halpern like basically blacklisted me from I.O.
- [61:31]
Marc Maron
Oh my God.
- [61:31]
Jenna Friedman
And that's how I got into Stand up.
- [61:33]
Marc Maron
She blacklisted you for.
- [61:34]
Jenna Friedman
Because the paper was from IO? Yeah.
- [61:36]
Marc Maron
Okay.
- [61:37]
Jenna Friedman
Because the paper was. It was so benign, it was so tame, but I was looking at improv. This is going to sound so wonky, but improv was kind of like a lens to view social inequality. And so I was looking at improv Olympics and I'm like, this place has made such great strides in the past 20 or 30 years. Tina Fey and Amy Poehler are hosting SNL. Predominantly white, middle class women are achieving equality in this community, but everybody else is lagging behind. It's not because improvisers are racist. It's because there are systemic issues in our larger political economy. Everything we're talking about now, I mean, I really saw it there. At the time that I was there, there were like, I had friends who were non white performers who kind of got pushed out of the mainstream and had their own improv groups. It felt like separate but equal, which isn't equal. In Chicago at the time, you had a couple all black improv groups, Latino, all Asian improv groups. People were just finding separate communities because the mainstream was so hostile to them.
- [62:37]
Marc Maron
Interesting.
- [62:37]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah, so I wrote about that. I also wrote about how it's a bar, it's a work environment, it's an educational center. Lines are blurred. When I was an intern, I was. I had so many experiences and I wrote about the most benign one, which was just like, it was so benign. I just thought it was funny. I was reading about sexual harassment and like one of the male teachers came up and like rubbed my lower back and like told me my hair looked really cute or something. And I was like, that was what I wrote about. The actual. What actually happened was crazy. Not to me, but just in general. It was a crazy environment. And so. But just because I said, hey, this environment could be sexually charged and that's not really helpful or conducive to people trying to be there to learn, people got very upset. And I. And I had a show that was canceled. I got kicked off my Harold team.
- [63:27]
Marc Maron
Really?
- [63:27]
Jenna Friedman
And then like the reader wanted to do a story about it and I was so ashamed and embarrassed. I just was like, I don't want to make waves that way.
- [63:34]
Marc Maron
How did the other improvisers take it? Were you like ostracized at all levels?
- [63:38]
Jenna Friedman
Well, the only people that really came down on me were like two of my favorite female teachers. I wrote about it. I've written about it because they.
- [63:45]
Marc Maron
What were you. You were saying from an. An outsider or even an insider point of view, in the context that you were saying, it implied something about them that they didn't think was true and may not have been true.
- [63:57]
Jenna Friedman
I used all pseudonyms. I didn't say anything about them. I think one of them apologized to me years later. I think I just like, I'm this random 20 something early, like 20 year old coming into this community kind of saying, like, this is the stuff that happens. Like nobody wants so specific.
- [64:11]
Marc Maron
If you hadn't let them publish it, it would have just been a paper you wrote for school.
- [64:15]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah, I know. I didn't let them publish it. It was just a comedy Blog. It was like new. Blogs were new.
- [64:20]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah.
- [64:21]
Jenna Friedman
It was just. And then the interesting thing is that, like, in 2015, all this stuff came to light. Like, all the sexual harassment there. Like, all these people. Someone complained about sexual harassment, and Sharna was like, I'll fix it by offering you free. Free classes. And all this stuff came to light. And I was like, they knew about this.
- [64:37]
Marc Maron
I mean, oh, see, you got them where it hurt.
- [64:41]
Jenna Friedman
It's not there. It's not any organization's fault. It's just happens. It happens. And it's like, how do we. No one's perfect. But it's just like, these places are so special when they're. I mean, there's. I don't know. I really. It felt like a magical place. And it's such a bummer that people can't take constructive criticism.
- [65:01]
Marc Maron
They should grow up.
- [65:02]
Jenna Friedman
I just, you know, I wasn't saying anything really controversial. It would have been cool if they were like, okay, we read this. Maybe students. Maybe teachers shouldn't try to fuck students.
- [65:11]
Marc Maron
I don't know.
- [65:12]
Jenna Friedman
That's all, you know, like, maybe we should just kind of like, be careful about that.
- [65:17]
Marc Maron
Yeah. And so they threw you out and then made you a standup, and that.
- [65:21]
Jenna Friedman
Made me a standup.
- [65:21]
Marc Maron
And you stayed in Chicago?
- [65:23]
Jenna Friedman
I went to New York. I had a play that I wrote that was critically panned in Chicago, and then I took it to New York and it did really well. And then I was like, I'm moving to New York.
- [65:32]
Marc Maron
What was that one called?
- [65:33]
Jenna Friedman
It was a satire in American Girl Dolls. As refugees, and I had my cast were all these incredibly talented women in Chicago. And it was such a cool experience and it really taught me about satire.
- [65:48]
Marc Maron
But it's interesting that coming out of anthropology, that. That one paper in terms of understanding your place as a woman, as a creative person, and that's always been the active part of your creativity.
- [66:05]
Jenna Friedman
I guess.
- [66:05]
Marc Maron
So that's good. At least, you know, you've stuck by it.
- [66:09]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah.
- [66:10]
Marc Maron
You have a voice.
- [66:11]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah. My mom used to say, you have a voice. People might not listen, but you have a voice. Yeah.
- [66:17]
Marc Maron
And so when did you move out here? I had no idea you lived here.
- [66:21]
Jenna Friedman
I was going back and forth and then the pandemic, I was like, you know what, la, it's not looking so bad.
- [66:28]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [66:28]
Jenna Friedman
New York, my New York friends really like every. I love New York. I will always be a New Yorker in my heart. And I'm trying. I try to get back there as much as I can, but I do think during the pandemic, there was a little bit like, we're gonna stay here. And I'm like, do you understand when a system's under stress? Same thing with the LA fires. If you have the privilege and ability to get out, to take. Put less stress on the system, do it right, do it. That helps everybody. Don't bash people for leaving, you know, I mean, I don't know. That's my point of view.
- [66:58]
Marc Maron
No, I get it, but did you grow up in New York?
- [67:00]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah. From New Jersey.
- [67:01]
Marc Maron
Jersey?
- [67:02]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah. Like all comedians?
- [67:03]
Marc Maron
Yeah. What part of Jersey?
- [67:05]
Jenna Friedman
Haddonfield, Next to. Next to Philly and Cherry Hill.
- [67:08]
Marc Maron
Oh, down there. Down there, yeah.
- [67:11]
Jenna Friedman
You're from New Jersey, too?
- [67:12]
Marc Maron
Well, I was born there. My family's from there. You know, I didn't spend time.
- [67:15]
Jenna Friedman
Where were they? But where were you born?
- [67:17]
Marc Maron
I was born in Jersey City.
- [67:18]
Jenna Friedman
Okay.
- [67:19]
Marc Maron
But my, like, I think most of it was, you know, Pompton Lakes. I think it's Bergen County. You know, Wayne. We lived in Wayne, New Jersey. It's definitely about 45 miles outside the city. Not by Philly, but I got family down the shore and shit. I've said it many times. I'm genetically Jersey. So you just came out here for the pandemic?
- [67:42]
Jenna Friedman
I pandemiced, yeah. No, I was also working. I worked on Roseanne for a day.
- [67:50]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [67:50]
Jenna Friedman
Then she sent out that tweet.
- [67:53]
Marc Maron
That was the end of that gig.
- [67:54]
Jenna Friedman
No, it became the Conners. And I worked on that for a year. And then I work with Sasha. I've been working with Sasha out here.
- [68:00]
Marc Maron
Oh, that's right. You did the second Bora movie. What's that? Like, how does that process work, Sasha? Like, what'd you do on the. So I guess the skill set around produce segments on the Daily show again, kind of helped you.
- [68:13]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah, yeah. I knew how to pitch for what he. What he does.
- [68:18]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [68:18]
Jenna Friedman
Cause I make. Cause I did that. I produced those things.
- [68:22]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [68:23]
Jenna Friedman
I think from my Adult Swim show. I think he had seen some of my segments, and that's how I got into his orbit. And then. Yeah, Borat, too, was a dream. I mean, because for years I've wanted to make kind of shocky feminist, creepy comedy. And there wasn't the platform. And then Sasha was totally game.
- [68:41]
Marc Maron
Yeah, I did a cartoon with Maria. What's her name?
- [68:43]
Jenna Friedman
Bakalova.
- [68:44]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah.
- [68:45]
Jenna Friedman
She was so good. I don't know. Did you see that movie?
- [68:48]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah.
- [68:48]
Jenna Friedman
So the period dance.
- [68:50]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [68:51]
Jenna Friedman
That was.
- [68:52]
Marc Maron
That's from the mind of Jennifer Eagan.
- [68:56]
Jenna Friedman
There was more to it that got cut for time, but Maria's literally doing somersaults with like a bloody underwear all around Sasha. And whenever I feel sad, I just think about that and laugh. It's the funniest. I feel so lucky that I got to be part of that. It's like the dream. I mean, especially as like a female comic of my generation. But it's like we never. You never talked about period stuff. You knew not to. It wasn't a thing.
- [69:24]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [69:24]
Jenna Friedman
And then to really just be able to go there in this way to.
- [69:27]
Marc Maron
End all the conversations.
- [69:30]
Jenna Friedman
And it's also like, no one can tell you that. I love the type of comedy when no one can tell you something's in a. Inappropriate because you're like, but these are natural. And like half the population goes through with this. So what's inappropriate about it? You know, like when you kind of.
- [69:43]
Marc Maron
So you're responding to the stereotyping of. Of female comics as well. You just talk about their period.
- [69:49]
Jenna Friedman
That kind of. I think that's what I'm. Yeah.
- [69:52]
Marc Maron
So like, it's fun when you can find a way to go so far over the top that, you know, you end the conversation.
- [69:57]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah. Yeah.
- [70:00]
Marc Maron
So where now tell me, like, because we'll probably air this when you're heading over there to Scotland. The arc of this thing, did you find that you were able to counter your feelings of grief with comedy all the way through?
- [70:16]
Jenna Friedman
I'm figuring it out. It's really fun when I get. I don't know if this will be in the final show, but whenever I feel sad. Cause for. I think the show is better when I connect to the material. Yeah, but then, and, but then I don't know how you feel, but it feels like if I feel sad, I don't want to cry because that feels like hacky or it feels like fraudulent or something. It feels like, I don't know, I have a hang up about that.
- [70:40]
Marc Maron
Well, can you do it on purpose?
- [70:42]
Jenna Friedman
Well, here's the thing. When I think about my mom, I can cry at the drop of a hat.
- [70:46]
Marc Maron
Right.
- [70:47]
Jenna Friedman
And then if anyone's like, oh, she's being. I'm like, look at my IMDb page. Clearly I'm not an actor. You know, clearly I can't cry on command, right?
- [70:56]
Marc Maron
No, no, I don't think there's.
- [70:58]
Jenna Friedman
I don't know why I have that. Like, I feel like it's disingenuous or something because I've seen so many shows where people cry and there's just something about it.
- [71:06]
Marc Maron
So you should open the show with that. Like a sort of, like a trigger warning that there may be real tears.
- [71:12]
Jenna Friedman
So I just did the Soho Theater and they have all these trigger warning.
- [71:15]
Marc Maron
Like in London.
- [71:17]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah, the triggers. Now it's a different time. I don't think we should have. I don't think that we should need trigger warnings for shows. I think we do people a disservice when we.
- [71:26]
Marc Maron
No, no, I don't think so either. But I think it's a joke, as a joke to sort of counter your fear of crying as being misinterpreted, as doing something manipulative.
- [71:35]
Jenna Friedman
Right, right. Well, I have other jokes. No, I mean, so whenever I get sad, now I have a prop. Like right now I have a prop flashlight that I just shine on, like, just a random man to just kind of like, take me out of my.
- [71:52]
Marc Maron
Okay.
- [71:52]
Jenna Friedman
I also, like, feel like British men are so repressed that to be like, no, you're crying. It just kind of gets me out of it.
- [71:59]
Marc Maron
It's funny. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [72:00]
Jenna Friedman
I've done it a couple times. I don't know if that'll stay in, but it's a good. It's just a good clutch to have.
- [72:05]
Marc Maron
Now, where are you on this sort of like. Because I feel that. Do you feel that you were able to, like, you're obviously continuing with what you're doing, but do you feel that was ever a point where the writing was cutting into what you thought was stand up time?
- [72:25]
Jenna Friedman
Ask that again.
- [72:26]
Marc Maron
I mean, like, because, like, you know, I'm a stand up, you know, you know, all the way through and through. So like anything else, even when I started the podcast, I'm like, yeah, but I'm a stand up. You know, like, there was always this sort of. Even if it was making me money, which it wasn't, but when people began to know me as this guy, which.
- [72:45]
Jenna Friedman
Gives me a podcaster, Marc Maron.
- [72:46]
Marc Maron
Well, a broader personality that I wasn't, you know, and was freeing for me. But I always see myself as a standup no matter what. And you know that. And I come from sort of this weird warrior mindset about it. And I just wondered, do you feel like you've been able to put as much time into stand up as you want?
- [73:10]
Jenna Friedman
Cause I'm a mom.
- [73:11]
Marc Maron
Just in general. Because you had all these writing jobs.
- [73:14]
Jenna Friedman
No, I haven't. No, I haven't. Especially now. I mean, being in la, it's so much harder to do standup. It is hard when you have a kid. Like, I'm gonna be Away from him for three weeks, which I haven't been. Which feels weird. Cause he's growing so fast.
- [73:26]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [73:27]
Jenna Friedman
My husband's a musician, and he also, as a performer, understands. He's like. Cause I was like, can you guys come over? And he's like, you're not gonna want us there. You just focus on your. I'm doing a show every day at like 4pm He's. Focus on your work. Focus on the show.
- [73:42]
Marc Maron
Yeah. And he's a solid dude.
- [73:44]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah, he's great.
- [73:45]
Marc Maron
Good.
- [73:46]
Jenna Friedman
And it'll be good.
- [73:48]
Marc Maron
It'll be good for you.
- [73:49]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah. But I mean, stand up. So labor intensive. So I know that when I'm in New York and I'm doing like three shows a night, I'm funny.
- [73:56]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [73:57]
Jenna Friedman
And when I am not. Like, the last time I performed at the Celery, I hadn't performed there for a month. I haven't performed in, like a couple weeks. And I just had a rusty set in front of Esti.
- [74:06]
Marc Maron
Isn't that funny that it all comes down to Esti?
- [74:08]
Jenna Friedman
It all comes down to Esti. But, yeah, I mean, it's. I, Like, I'm. I kind of. I dip into the comedy store a little bit out here, but it's just if I'm not doing stand up frequently, I get rusty really quickly.
- [74:24]
Marc Maron
Yeah. You lose that connection, the audience connection. Like, if you're. It's like a gym. Like, if that's open. If you're doing that two, three nights a week, so it stays open. If you go like, three weeks, you're like, that part. You have to reintroduce yourself to it.
- [74:38]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah. It's crazy how labor intensive it is.
- [74:41]
Marc Maron
Yeah. It takes time. But it's good that you're working on, like, one piece.
- [74:46]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah.
- [74:46]
Marc Maron
I think Sarah handled that very well to do the one piece. And, like, in that framework is, you know, you can go anywhere with it with grief because you can go back to all of your experiences with your mother and then to where it becomes kind of daunting and horrible.
- [75:02]
Jenna Friedman
I don't talk about. I mean, I probably could put more of her in it. I just. The experience of losing her. It all happened in my third trimester.
- [75:10]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Oh, boy.
- [75:11]
Jenna Friedman
So I was like 27 weeks pregnant, and I was like, la dee da. And then, like the day before I taped the standup special, I found out that she was sick. And I didn't know how sick. Cause nobody was telling me anything. And then she. And then I was also shooting the True Crime show at the same time, so. I was just running around shooting this show about, like, murder, and then she died, like, five or six weeks later. I had to fly back to say goodbye to her at 34 weeks pregnant. But I went.
- [75:39]
Marc Maron
And that kind of hung over your birth.
- [75:42]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah. Well, the thing is, I did not want kids. I still am ambivalent about kids, but I love my one kid, and it was something I didn't want, and my husband really wanted it.
- [75:54]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [75:54]
Jenna Friedman
And I. And, like, I was just like, you know what? You can go ahead and try. I've never been pregnant. Probably won't get pregnant this time. And it happened, like, right away.
- [76:03]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [76:03]
Jenna Friedman
And I feel so lucky about that because my mom got to see me be pregnant.
- [76:06]
Marc Maron
Right.
- [76:07]
Jenna Friedman
And he has also been, like, such an antidote to grief.
- [76:12]
Marc Maron
Right.
- [76:14]
Jenna Friedman
But I was a mess, and there was. There was comedy to be had in being, like, such a mess. I was such a mess.
- [76:19]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [76:20]
Jenna Friedman
And I talk about it in the show, Like, I just. I was getting nosebleeds all the time. I was a total mess.
- [76:24]
Marc Maron
Wow. It's like the most natural antidote to grief.
- [76:27]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah.
- [76:28]
Marc Maron
Is birth and life.
- [76:30]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah.
- [76:30]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [76:31]
Jenna Friedman
But it just, like, life comes at you fast. It just all hit at the same time.
- [76:35]
Marc Maron
And you don't explore, you know, your childhood with your mother at all in the show.
- [76:41]
Jenna Friedman
No, she was great. I mean, she was. She. Oh, there's so much I could tell you, but she was very private.
- [76:49]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [76:50]
Jenna Friedman
Which also makes me that, like, when you ask if I'm nervous, it's like, yeah, I'm always nervous being on a podcast.
- [76:55]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [76:58]
Jenna Friedman
But she was very private, and there was so much of. There was stuff she never told me her whole life. Like, I.
- [77:04]
Marc Maron
You don't never know your parents. It's weird. I talk about that now. It's just like, you don't. You don't know.
- [77:09]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah.
- [77:09]
Marc Maron
It's crazy.
- [77:11]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah.
- [77:12]
Marc Maron
You have this specific kind of, like, narrow spectrum of experience. And they had lives, you know, they had secret lives. They had lives as adults. They had lives before you. And it's like, you just don't. I, like, both of my parents are still kind of hanging in there. My dad's losing his mind, and my mom's very old, and you just start to realize, like, I don't. And. And my dad was kind of a monster. So, like, now, like, I do a bit about that, about when they get dementia. Dementia. And.
- [77:40]
Jenna Friedman
Oh, I saw that. You're, like, hold on to that moment when they're.
- [77:43]
Marc Maron
Well, there's that. But the new one is, it's like, you know, the filter goes and the statute of limitations on what they should and shouldn't tell their kid, that goes away. So if you've got unresolved issues or questions, you know, just reach into that bingo cage of memories and see if.
- [77:57]
Jenna Friedman
So intense, see if you can find.
- [77:59]
Marc Maron
The missing piece that'll make you a whole person.
- [78:03]
Jenna Friedman
So, I mean, I had the opposite experience because when she died, she was like. I could see in her face her fear, knowing that she was gonna die. And that haunts me till this day.
- [78:11]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [78:12]
Jenna Friedman
But to have the opposite, to see them kind of disappear while their body's still alive, feels haunting. In a whole nother.
- [78:19]
Marc Maron
Well, they're just spitting out information that becomes very poetic and interesting if you can let go of who they were, you know, and if who they were.
- [78:26]
Jenna Friedman
Was not the best person.
- [78:28]
Marc Maron
Well, yeah. Yeah. It's interesting what remains. You know, the stubbornness and the belligerence and the angst, anger. Like a lot of that stuff that's holding on more than what he had for breakfast. These core things, to me, it's all after losing somebody I love tragically and quickly. The framework of how I see life, it definitely shifted. And I imagine being haunted by your mom's fear and vulnerability. It's such a common human experience. It's a very odd thing to generalize, you know, innately to make the decision to generalize it, but it's like, there's nothing more common than that. Yeah, it's wild.
- [79:11]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah. No, no. And I know it is crazy how grief illiterate we are, but a lot of us are. I mean, a lot of comics are talking about it. There's like the cliche in Edinburgh of, like, the Dead dad show, you know.
- [79:19]
Marc Maron
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [79:20]
Jenna Friedman
And that's also maybe why part of my, like, reticence to cry or to talk about. I'm just like, I don't want to be part of the. Like, I don't want to be, you know, grouped into that kind of thing, but it doesn't matter.
- [79:30]
Marc Maron
But also, it's like, it's a one show thing and. And whether there's a group, like, that's a much better grouping than a lot of the other types of grouping there are.
- [79:38]
Jenna Friedman
That's true.
- [79:39]
Marc Maron
I mean, at least you're doing something community, communally viable and helpful, and you're actually, you know, contributing to people feeling less alone in these unavoidable feelings that are going to happen to everybody. Like, I can, you know, like, it's okay to be a grief hack because it's not like it's.
- [80:01]
Jenna Friedman
There's so many other hacks, you know?
- [80:03]
Marc Maron
Yeah, the worst kinds. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [80:06]
Jenna Friedman
That is the hardest part. When I've been doing the show, people coming up after and like, kind of unloading their trauma.
- [80:11]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah.
- [80:12]
Jenna Friedman
I'm sure you get that.
- [80:13]
Marc Maron
Well, yeah, you know what? But even what I get out of that is like, oh, it's everybody.
- [80:20]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah, it's really. Yeah, yeah.
- [80:22]
Marc Maron
One of the great sort equalizers. Totally.
- [80:25]
Jenna Friedman
Yeah.
- [80:26]
Marc Maron
Well, good luck with the show.
- [80:28]
Jenna Friedman
Thank you.
- [80:28]
Marc Maron
It was nice talking to you.
- [80:30]
Jenna Friedman
You too.
- [80:34]
Marc Maron
Okay, Jenna, you too.
- [80:35]
Jenna Friedman
Okay, we can take. Do another take. Do that again.
- [80:39]
Marc Maron
It's great talking to you.
- [80:40]
Jenna Friedman
Wait, wait. Now I'm directing. Okay, do that again. Just do that again.
- [80:42]
Marc Maron
It was really great talking to you.
- [80:45]
Jenna Friedman
You too.
- [80:46]
Marc Maron
Oh, thanks. Yeah, I didn't know how it would all pan out, but we did it.
- [80:52]
Jenna Friedman
Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.
- [81:00]
Marc Maron
I was happy to talk to her. It's been a while. Again, I should mention. She'll be at The Edinburgh Fringe August 8th through 24th with her new show, Jenna Friedman. Motherfucker. Get tickets@jennafreedman.com. hang out for a minute, folks. Hey, people. Jenna was on a live episode of WTF from the early years. And if you have a WTF support subscription, you can hear all of those live episodes, like this one with Bill Hader and Fred Armisen. You guys seem so well adjusted. When I was a kid, the, you know, the mythic SNL thing was like, that place is up. It's nothing but crazy over there and not anymore. Sweet. It's very sweet. Yeah, everybody's. That seemed like a talking point. Yeah. No, I mean, it's just like. Tell them it's sweet. No, it's just very. No, it is. It's very nice. Like, people come and they want to. Like, sometimes hosts come or bands and they're like, ready to party and it's. Yeah, it's quiet time. Yeah, it's all quiet. There's mats on the floor. We're taking naps. How often do you have to deal with Lauren? Like, one every. Every day, all the time. He's awesome. Yeah, he really is. He's very hands on and he's very. Can I share with you how paranoid I am? Yeah, I. You know, I had one meeting with him when like 95 or something, and it didn't go well. And like, I think he brought me in was when Luna was starting downtown. And like, the first thing he said to me was, like, I don't know what you think you're doing down there below 14th street, but it doesn't matter. It didn't matter, did it? No, it didn't matter at all. And, but, but this is how fucking nuts I am and how self important I am is like the Wall Street Journal wrote up this show and, and I told, I told the interviewer who was asking me about, you know, Luna and, and that you guys were coming on. And then I told him about the SNL story and I told him that story cause he was asking me about alternative comedy. And I called him back and I said, look, could you pull the learn thing out because I don't want him to see it and then say, and then keep Fred and Bill late. Like I thought Lauren Michaels was going to see that story and say, you guys aren't going. You're not going to the fabled wtm. Wow, that's crazy. That's a good move though. That is. I mean, that is a good move. Is it the right thing? He did do the right thing. That's episode 164 live in Brooklyn. You can hear that ad free with a WTF plus subscription. To sign up, go to the link in the episode description or go to wtfpod.com and click on WTF. And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by acast. Here's kind of a messy rendition of a Velvet Underground deep cut. Boomer Lives Monkey and La Fonda Cat Angels everywhere.