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- [00:00]
Marc Maron
Lock the gate. All right, let's do this. How are you? What the. What the Buddies? What the Nicks? What's happening? I'm Mark Marin. This is my podcast. Welcome to it. What's happening? How are you doing? Where are we at? No place good, but it's okay. It's okay. You can be okay. You can be okay. Don't let it collapse your brain. Do not let the world burn hotter than it already is in the machine you're holding in your hand. Don't let the interface between you and the machine you hold in your hand break your brain into thinking. Everything is immediate and in your yard, it's just in your hand. And you can put it down. Put it down for a minute. Huh? This feels like some sort of like, you know, motivational talk. I feel like I'm some sort of Eckhart Tolle of put the machine down. It's like, put the gun down. Take it out of your mouth. Put the phone down. Take it out of your head. Do it. It's where we're at. And I just want to say something about thinking about certain things. You know, I'm kind of coming down from publicity tour and, you know, saying my mind, speaking my mind in ways that I do, but I still live a pretty, pretty small life in a lot of ways. And it's just the way my brain works, you know, I don't spend a lot of money. I fester about simple things. I think about ways of looking at things. But I'm starting to realize something about sort of thinking about who you are and where you come from on all levels in a non nostalgic way. I just had this weird thought, but I'll get to it in a minute. Today I'm gonna talk to Nico Case. She's a singer songwriter known for her solo work as well as being part of the New Pornographers. She's got her first album in seven years coming out next month called Neon Grey, Midnight Green. She also just released her memoir earlier this year. It's called the Harder I Fight the More I love you. And it was a great book. And I generally don't read the books that people are coming on to promote if it's a memoir, because I find I know too much. Whether that was the case with this conversation or not, I don't know. I have my feelings, but I couldn't put the book down because there was something poetic and emotional in terms of what made her. What made her who she was and what makes her who she is in relation to the incredible sort of. Kind of poverty and insanity that she grew up with. And it really made me reflect on myself because there were some similarities, even though we don't come from the same stuff. But emotionally sometimes doesn't matter what the surroundings are. Emotions are emotions. Parenting is parenting. How you sort of claim yourself in the midst of chaos or neglect is. Is sort of the groundwork for who you become and how you enter the world. And as time goes on, you. You kind of chip away at that if it's faulty. And you make different choices for yourself against your instincts, which are sometimes not great. And that's the sort of struggle of. Of a traumatized person, or I like to say broken. But some people are like, we're not broken. We're flawed. Or, you know, everyone's got trouble. But I. I say broken. And almost in the purely poetic sense, you know, from broken things comes the process of restoration into a new thing. That was sort of the theme of my last special that's out now on hbo. Panicked in terms of how we design the set and what inspired it. The art of Kensuke. I don't know if I'm pronouncing that right. The restoration of broken ceramics with gold. And that's a beautiful metaphor for anybody who's doing the work is, you know, not only making yourself better, but making yourself stronger and making yourself uniquely beautiful in how you present who you are publicly and who you are from the inside. And I've been thinking a lot about some of this stuff in the sense of, like, how do you comfort yourself in the midst of American authoritarianism? And what are you really doing? Is it nostalgia? Is it relief when you kind of dip into classic movies or old movies or music that moved you when you were younger or reconnecting with old friends or. Or. Or. Or thinking about, you know, how you grew up and who you grew up with and all that stuff. Is it nostalgia or. Or is it really kind of, you know, reaffirming to yourself who you are? You know, there's something about, you know, containing or controlling your emotional reactions or. Or through things that are comforting from different points in your life, or just, you know, maybe if it's not just pablum or. Or just, you know, garbage you're kind of engaging with as a distraction, which I rarely do because I just have high expectations. I don't. I don't really allow myself just to be jerked around emotionally for the sake of distraction. I need there to be some meat there somehow. But the thought I was having today was really about how much of that, how much of what you could call nostalgia. And depending how old you are, I think nostalgia in a real sense really kicks in. Probably after 40. Before that it's just memories. But after 40 on upwards from that, depending on what your life was, you can kind of see the sort of periods of your life of almost specifically different lives that you lived. And I think that's sort of true. I think that in the way that we change as people, in the way that we change our environment, in the people that we move through or stay with, there are these changes that happen. And I just got hip to this idea, a new psychological idea called Internal Family Systems. And I'm waiting for a book to do a little more research on it. And this kind of posits the idea that we are several different, different selves that, you know, we kind of maintain within us. And how you treat them or what part they play in your life, you know, becomes sort of something to be worked on or a choice to be made. Like if there's some part of you that you shut off years ago out of fear of pain, rejection, or just, you know, the terror of vulnerability, that there's a way to sort of like get that guy up to speed, get that woman up to speed. Whatever it is within you, you know, you were built. We are all sort of built through influences. And I think right now, you know, the way that technology and just the sheer kind of force of the propaganda and, you know, content driven garbage that we let, you know, pound into our mind has an influence, but it's very visceral, it's very. It just taps into kind of raw emotion and dopamine and panic and all that lizard brain bullshit. But when you kind of take time with things that mean something to you, whether it's, you know, music, you know, film, whatever arts you're involved in writing, whatever that stuff is, and also people that I think you're kind of reasserting for yourself, you know, who you are in the world. And I think that it might be helpful to look at it like that. You know, then when you play that old record or you watch that old movie, that you're not just being nostalgic or trying to distract yourself, but you're literally checking in with, you know, who you, you are and what made you. And I think that anything that you engage with along these lines, that's a piece of you from whatever self it represents in your history of you, that you are kind of reasserting yourself to yourself, reaffirming that you were built from something that means something to you, even if it's parents, if you have that kind of relationship with your parents, and even if it's negative things. I think there is an element that maybe, and there's just an idea I'm putting out there that you can trivialize as nostalgia. But there's something about engaging with the stuff that moves you because it has a place in your life. That that stuff kind of is part of your design. It's part of what made you who you were, whether it inspired you or it brings back feelings or represents a person, or you use it as a foundation for your creativity or how you move through the. And that reconnecting with that stuff, it's not an act of self help. It's not an act of nostalgia. It's an act of always reintroducing yourself to who you are and what made you and strengthening that and reaffirming that in real time, in the midst of forces that are constantly ripping apart at our senses of self, at our senses of principle and who we are, and just leveling us to fear and panic. So don't just, you know, think about it as nostalgia. You know, deepen your level of awareness of engaging in the things that mean something to you because they mean something to you, because they're part of your makeup. I'm starting to sound like some sort of motivational speaker, but I just found this. Like, people in your life, think back at them. People you lost, people that said things that changed your life forever, people that showed you things that, you know, set you on your trajectory to be who you wanted to be and do what you wanted to do. You know, reflect on them with some depth and some meaning and not just sadness and not just nostalgia. You know, be grateful for the things that impacted you to make you the person that you are today in the midst of this annihilating psychic force that's going on. So you can kind of hold onto yourself. And I think if you look at it, those things with that kind of depth, it'll work that way for you. And it might save your sanity. It might save the sense and the reality of who you are, you know, both for good and bad. But, I mean, don't just, you know, write it off as nostalgia. It's life affirming shit. If you have some kind of issue that needs attention in your life, is it better to address it before it becomes a problem or after the problem has already happened? Of course you want to deal with it before, which is why we recommend Simply safe because it's designed to stop break ins on your property before they happen. You know from listening to this show that I can be a pretty anxious guy. Home security is a way to feel less anxious when I'm not around, or even when I am. Because SimpliSafe's Active Guard Outdoor Protection is powered by AI cameras and live monitoring agents to detect suspicious activity around your property. If someone's lurking, agents, talk to them in real time, proactively deterring crime before it starts. That's how SimpliSafe works. There are no contracts and no hidden fees. And they have some of the best customer service reps in the country right now. You can get 50% off their new SimpliSafe system with professional monitoring and your first month free@simplisafe.com WTF? That's SimpliSafe.com WTF for 50% off and your first month free SimpliSafe.com WTF there's no safe like Simplisafe. Nico Case is here and she's been on my radar for a long time, but I didn't really want to interview her until I really was sort of saturated with her work in all its forms. So it took a while for us to get this together. Her new album, Neon Gray Midnight green comes out September 26th. You can pre order it now and go to nicocase.com for her upcoming tour dates and her book, her memoir, the Harder I Fight the More I Love youe is a beautiful book. And this is me talking to Nico Case. I think we're okay.
- [12:47]
Neko Case
I think we're okay.
- [12:48]
Marc Maron
You sound okay to you?
- [12:49]
Neko Case
I do.
- [12:50]
Marc Maron
Good, good.
- [12:51]
Neko Case
Perfect.
- [12:52]
Marc Maron
Have you dealt with these kind of problems before?
- [12:55]
Neko Case
No. Yes. Every. Every day of my life.
- [13:01]
Marc Maron
The sound, the sound problem.
- [13:03]
Neko Case
I'm pretty obsessed with it.
- [13:05]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [13:06]
Neko Case
And the edges of the sound especially.
- [13:09]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Because you can hear just static.
- [13:15]
Neko Case
I can hear electricity.
- [13:16]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [13:17]
Neko Case
I have a lot of high end hearing that I can. That drives me crazy. A lot of people, I really hate auto tune because people often mix it and put compression on it in a way that makes the edges of it like the rippled edge of a tin can in my ear.
- [13:35]
Marc Maron
Oh, yeah.
- [13:36]
Neko Case
And it's just like, gah.
- [13:38]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [13:38]
Neko Case
I don't hate the sound of it as much as when it's just like.
- [13:42]
Marc Maron
No, I don't even know what. I don't even know what that stuff is like. You know, I don't. But I'm pretty limited, you know, I'm just looking for tone. I'm trying to figure out you know how to. How do you write songs? It's kind of tricky, isn't it?
- [13:57]
Neko Case
It's pretty tricky, yeah. The best way to start is to not know anything about it and just start.
- [14:05]
Marc Maron
But, like, how do you, like. I mean, I don't mean to start like this, but like, I've recently. Because this podcast is wrapping up and I've been playing for years, so I started playing with people and it was never something I did much of as a kid, and I was always terrified of singing. And I just, I realized, you know, I've been playing alone for my entire life and I'm okay at it, but like, you know, the rubber meets the road when you get on stage with humans. So I've been doing that and I don't like the idea of writing a song for myself. I did once after my partner died, and I thought it was pretty good, but the validation necessary to really make you believe it's good is too much.
- [14:45]
Neko Case
Well, that's why you have to just decide that you are the valid. Like, you are the judge.
- [14:50]
Marc Maron
And, you know, it took you a while, didn't it?
- [14:53]
Neko Case
It did take me a while, but I also, I kind of just realized fairly early, like, nobody gives a fuck what a girl thinks.
- [15:01]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [15:01]
Neko Case
So nobody's going to notice what I'm doing.
- [15:03]
Marc Maron
Right.
- [15:04]
Neko Case
So the freedom in that is pretty, pretty large.
- [15:06]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Yeah, I, that's true. I mean, I read. I rarely read the whole books because sometimes I think it'll affect the conversation, but I read your whole book in like one sitting, and it was, I think, kind of had a life changing effect on me.
- [15:24]
Neko Case
Really?
- [15:24]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [15:25]
Neko Case
Oh, that, that means, that really means a lot. Thank you.
- [15:28]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Because it's, you know, it's kind of a rough time. And then in the arc of your rough times, the, this sort of movement of self discovery and where you landed is an inspiring thing.
- [15:40]
Neko Case
Thank you.
- [15:40]
Marc Maron
Yeah. And I read. I read Kathleen Hannah's whole book and that was.
- [15:45]
Neko Case
That book is fantastic. Yeah.
- [15:46]
Marc Maron
It's crazy, but both of you are very, you know, kind of clear on the life and, you know, and the, the sort of having no choice but to live it, the life of rock and roll or music or whatever, and both of your. Your pasts are pretty harrowing, you know, and. But I, I couldn't put that book down either. I think I read Kristen Hirsch's too.
- [16:12]
Neko Case
I haven't read that yet, but everybody says it's fantastic. It's on my list of things to read.
- [16:17]
Marc Maron
Well, we can start with this. I underline things in books, I do that too.
- [16:21]
Neko Case
You do a lot of dog earring?
- [16:23]
Marc Maron
Yeah, but, like, I don't. Like in the moment. I don't know why. But, you know, I do it because as an effect, I guess it's. In looking back on it, I'm like, well, why. Why did I do that one? But this one's pretty. Pretty easy. I trusted animals so much more than people. I wanted only to love them. When it came to liking another human, I was perplexed as to why I would want to give my attention to something so unknown, so unpredictable. Right.
- [16:50]
Neko Case
Yeah. You don't know what they're gonna do. And all the. All the things that they teach you that are supposed to happen don't happen.
- [16:56]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [16:57]
Neko Case
The societal kind of politeness or.
- [17:01]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [17:02]
Neko Case
It just doesn't exist.
- [17:03]
Marc Maron
Well, that's like that line from Michael Clayton, which I quote all the time from Sidney Pollock, you know, after a guy supposedly killed himself but didn't. But he said people are incomprehensible. But doesn't it happen on kind of a spectrum of stuff? I mean, you don't have very much control over anything, right?
- [17:20]
Neko Case
No.
- [17:21]
Marc Maron
And you make assumptions about people based on you being one, and then all of a sudden, it's like, what the fuck is happening?
- [17:28]
Neko Case
Yeah. Why isn't this working? Is what I would think a lot of the time. Why isn't this working? Am I invisible? What's happening?
- [17:37]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Are they talking to their idea of me? That's the.
- [17:42]
Neko Case
I just was like, what's wrong with me?
- [17:44]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [17:44]
Neko Case
Because, you know, being a girl in the 70s, like.
- [17:47]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [17:47]
Neko Case
It just. I had no value. So I just immediately was like, okay, I'm doing it wrong.
- [17:51]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [17:52]
Neko Case
Whatever's happening right now.
- [17:53]
Marc Maron
Right.
- [17:54]
Neko Case
I'm the problem.
- [17:55]
Marc Maron
Right. And with animals, like, you know, they're unpredictable, but it's within the spectrum of that animal brain.
- [18:00]
Neko Case
They don't lie.
- [18:01]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [18:01]
Neko Case
They just don't.
- [18:03]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [18:03]
Neko Case
They could be having a crazy day, and they'll act crazy. And you don't have to wonder. I mean, you do wonder why they're acting crazy, but you know what they're doing.
- [18:12]
Marc Maron
And you've had a lot of dogs and cats and horses now, but don't you project onto them.
- [18:19]
Neko Case
Horses made me stop really projecting because horses are very. They're deep.
- [18:27]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [18:27]
Neko Case
And they. There's a real safety issue there.
- [18:31]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [18:31]
Neko Case
Like, you have to be able to understand what they're thinking about you. Or just getting stepped on can kill you. You know, like horses are. And that was the other part of it is that horses are not. Horses could just be killing the shit out of us all the time. And when you think of the history of people and horses, horses should have made us extinct based on what we do to them. And they could have done it. But their brains are not wired to attack and kill things or to be vengeful or seek retribution. They are into the safety of the moment and feeling comfort and levels of anxiety like they read you. They read your body, your heart rate, your temperature, your anxiety. And so I had to really just try to see it from their point of view. And, you know, I had a lot of friends who really understood horses. And I have this one woman in my life named Heike, who's German, and she would say things like, you can't expect them to not be a horse. They're not a. A cartoon. And so I took that very seriously. And now I really try to, like, figure out what the cats and dogs are thinking from a cat and dog perspective. And our communication is much better now.
- [19:49]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [19:50]
Neko Case
And it's a lot easier.
- [19:52]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Because a lot of times I, like, I've been having this trouble with my cats, and, like, it unravels my life because I have so much invested. Like, I have to constantly be told, like, no, Charlie's fine in the room. He's not up there going, like, why am I in the room? You know, I'm sad. This is horrible. It's fine. And I got to try and get out from under that.
- [20:15]
Neko Case
Yeah. He's having his own issues. Maybe he's got a health thing. Maybe he's got urinary tract problems that you don't know about yet. They act out for weird reasons.
- [20:27]
Marc Maron
I think he's jealous and spoiled and jealous.
- [20:30]
Neko Case
I have one. Yeah. I got. I have a similar problem.
- [20:33]
Marc Maron
You do?
- [20:34]
Neko Case
But my cats go outside because we live in the country, so.
- [20:37]
Marc Maron
Where do you live?
- [20:38]
Neko Case
I live in rural. Rural. Rural Vermont.
- [20:40]
Marc Maron
Really?
- [20:41]
Neko Case
In the Northeast Kingdom.
- [20:42]
Marc Maron
So you stayed up over there? How far from Burlington?
- [20:45]
Neko Case
Hour and a half.
- [20:46]
Marc Maron
Really?
- [20:46]
Neko Case
Everything's an hour and a half from Burlington?
- [20:48]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [20:49]
Neko Case
It's so tiny.
- [20:49]
Marc Maron
It's so pretty up there.
- [20:51]
Neko Case
It is. It's ridiculous how pretty it is.
- [20:53]
Marc Maron
Yeah. So I guess we can kind of talk about what resonated with me in terms of how you were brought up because your parents didn't want you.
- [21:05]
Neko Case
No. No, they did not.
- [21:08]
Marc Maron
And. And that was apparent both verbally and just in Vibe.
- [21:13]
Neko Case
Yeah, it was. It was a lifestyle. It was a lifestyle, for sure.
- [21:18]
Marc Maron
Yeah. And. But how old were they?
- [21:21]
Neko Case
They were young. They were, like, 17 and 18 or 18 and 19, I can't remember. They were definitely below 20 years old.
- [21:28]
Marc Maron
That's so crazy. They were children, when you think about it. I mean, when did you realize growing up that they were young?
- [21:39]
Neko Case
It was pretty young. Just because that was one of the reasons that they would give me for being divorced by the time I was five. Is that. Well, we were really young when we got together and.
- [21:49]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [21:49]
Neko Case
And, you know, I understood that as a young person. It made sense.
- [21:53]
Marc Maron
Yeah. But the sort of ongoing revelation of how broken they were, it's sad, but relieving, right?
- [22:04]
Neko Case
Well, it is. Yeah. And there's. When you figure out how much of the fantasy, quote, unquote, you are helping perpetuate. And you can go, oh, obviously, my mother didn't have cancer ever, when she disappeared. Yeah. She didn't want a kid.
- [22:22]
Marc Maron
That is so crazy.
- [22:24]
Neko Case
I did not realize how crazy that was until I told somebody when I was in my 20s.
- [22:28]
Marc Maron
So your entire family played along with this?
- [22:32]
Neko Case
Yes. Some knew, some didn't.
- [22:33]
Marc Maron
How old were you?
- [22:35]
Neko Case
I think I was. I was in third grade, so I don't remember what age that would make me.
- [22:40]
Marc Maron
And your parents were already split up?
- [22:42]
Neko Case
They were already split up. And my stepdad was in the picture by that point.
- [22:45]
Marc Maron
Was in will.
- [22:48]
Neko Case
I just called him Billiam. His name's William, but his name is Bill.
- [22:51]
Marc Maron
Yeah, Bill.
- [22:51]
Neko Case
And he's still around. He's awesome. He's fantastic. His whole family.
- [22:55]
Marc Maron
The anthropologist.
- [22:56]
Neko Case
Yeah, he's an archaeologist. And his whole family, the Fortini family, have always treated me like gold. They're one guy who got.
- [23:03]
Marc Maron
He hadn't won.
- [23:04]
Neko Case
Exactly.
- [23:05]
Marc Maron
So what happened? Exactly?
- [23:07]
Neko Case
She pretended to have cancer, but you.
- [23:10]
Marc Maron
Never saw her sick?
- [23:11]
Neko Case
I never saw her sick.
- [23:13]
Marc Maron
And she wasn't living with you?
- [23:15]
Neko Case
No.
- [23:16]
Marc Maron
Right.
- [23:16]
Neko Case
But apparently she was getting sicker and sicker. And so I was at my grandmother's, my father's mother, one day, and my dad came to pick me up, and he was crying, which was terrifying to begin with because my dad never showed any emotion. And he was like, your mommy's dead. And I was like, what the what? And, you know, I just. It was really shocking, and it's not something you can comprehend. It takes a long time to comprehend that somebody's dead. Yeah, it's like.
- [23:50]
Marc Maron
Especially as a kid.
- [23:51]
Neko Case
Yeah. And, you know, you could see somebody die in front of you, and it takes, like, years to understand that they're dead. And so I just went into this weird depression hallway based on nothing that I understood.
- [24:07]
Marc Maron
But they told you he drove you and you went to like a funeral, like a memorial?
- [24:11]
Neko Case
Well, a little while later we went to a wake for my mom, my grandmother's house, her mother's house. And there were people there and you know, jello salad and all that. And nobody seemed really as sad as I imagine they should seem. Yeah, and I was really sad. And you know, the only person who seemed like they kind of didn't understand what was or were on the same level as me, as my uncle's wife, my aunt sue, who was an incredible person, she seemed sad and I think she was sad for me.
- [24:48]
Marc Maron
But when you look back at that, did they all get on board for your sake that they thought somehow it was better that you thought this?
- [24:58]
Neko Case
I guess so. I mean, I still don't really know exactly what happened. My family are pretty tight lipped and most of them are dead now, so it doesn't.
- [25:10]
Marc Maron
Well, they must have known that she was in trouble and chaotic and was leaving the country and she was running away and. As opposed to tell you that I just can't even wrap my brain around the logic of it, that everybody would be on board with this heinous lie for your sake.
- [25:27]
Neko Case
I always describe it this way. It's like you cut yourself in the kitchen and then you build a rocket to go to the moon to get a band aid and come back.
- [25:36]
Marc Maron
Right? Yeah.
- [25:37]
Neko Case
It's so bizarre and around the bend. And that's the kind of the way my mother was warped as a young person was pretty classic patriarchal American and.
- [25:49]
Marc Maron
You mean the trauma?
- [25:51]
Neko Case
The trauma, the child of immigrants, you know, being raped as a young person and, and all those other things and not mattering.
- [26:00]
Marc Maron
But you didn't find that stuff out till later that she was raped in anger, which I guess all rape is by her own dad as punishment. And what's interesting in the book is that as you find this stuff out and the pieces start coming together, I mean you can find bits and pieces of hope and also explanation, but it doesn't, it doesn't reverse the damage, it only informs it. Right?
- [26:25]
Neko Case
Yes.
- [26:26]
Marc Maron
Yeah. So like after that you're just kind of left with your incommunicative dad. But it seems like you had family that was good.
- [26:35]
Neko Case
Yeah, like my grandmothers were really wonderful people. My grandfather, who was my step grandfather, who was married to my mom's mom, was wonderful. He also was very incommunicative though. He was just a really quiet.
- [26:51]
Marc Maron
The cancer guy?
- [26:53]
Neko Case
No, he was a farmer.
- [26:58]
Marc Maron
Is that Clyde?
- [26:59]
Neko Case
Clyde, yes. He raised organic beef and he couldn't eat his own cows because he was so soft. So he would just buy crappy beef.
- [27:06]
Marc Maron
At the supermarket because he was attached to them.
- [27:08]
Neko Case
He was attached to them. He was like, oh, I can't eat them. But lovely human being, lifelong volunteer fireman. Just a really good person.
- [27:17]
Marc Maron
That's on your dad's side.
- [27:18]
Neko Case
On my mom's side.
- [27:18]
Marc Maron
On your mom's side.
- [27:19]
Neko Case
Yeah. That was the. The person that my grandmother married after she left my super abusive Ukrainian grandfather. Yes.
- [27:29]
Marc Maron
But who was the one dying in the chair?
- [27:31]
Neko Case
That was my dad's father. He was kind of just one of those dad joke, kind of telling granddads he was nice to us. But I made the mistake of reading the Korean War diary that his troop wrote. And I was just like, this is horrifying.
- [27:54]
Marc Maron
That's a bloody war that no one knows about.
- [27:56]
Neko Case
I know. And the way that they were taught to view people in order to. Yes. And just the most racist, misogynist, reductive, evil. And I just was like, I can't trust anything.
- [28:14]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah.
- [28:15]
Neko Case
Nothing.
- [28:17]
Marc Maron
And you're alone and you've been moved around to different sort of versions of squalor with your father and at least some, you know, some order with your mom and Will, but just isolated, no siblings.
- [28:34]
Neko Case
No siblings. No.
- [28:37]
Marc Maron
I think the thing that resonated with me and something I, I keep trying to build on in my own sort of life because my parents were, you know, they had money enough to live, but were also had me when they. My mom was 22.
- [28:57]
Neko Case
So you're still a little kid then.
- [28:58]
Marc Maron
Yeah, totally.
- [29:00]
Neko Case
Yeah.
- [29:01]
Marc Maron
And you know, there's. They just weren't ready for it and they had no capacity for selflessness in terms of parenting. And I've always build on this thing that I read in this guy Firestone's book that if you have parents that are emotionally abusive or neglectful, that when you feel uncomfortable because of that not knowing what that discomfort is, you're going to blame yourself and. And you're going to implant a parent inside your mind that tells you you're fucking garbage.
- [29:37]
Neko Case
Yep.
- [29:38]
Marc Maron
Right.
- [29:38]
Neko Case
Yeah.
- [29:39]
Marc Maron
And I think that, you know, your book is in terms of that and moving through that is like what that's about, right?
- [29:48]
Neko Case
Yeah. And I think that there were times that, you know, I think fundamentally like my biological father was a really sweet guy, really gentle, really. He loved nature, he loved animals. But then there was this weird like macho military guy that lived in there.
- [30:05]
Marc Maron
And I remember his brother in law or something.
- [30:07]
Neko Case
No, just him.
- [30:08]
Marc Maron
Oh, him.
- [30:08]
Neko Case
Like just the guy that he thought he was supposed to be, you know, the picture of manhood in the 50s and 60s. And I remember one day he said to me. And he said it a few times after, he said, if I say black is blue, it's blue. And I was like, you can't make black blue. Yeah. So, like, I wasn't understanding the, you know, the you do it if I say it part.
- [30:33]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [30:34]
Neko Case
I got that. But it was also. He kind of sold himself out because I knew he couldn't make black into blue.
- [30:41]
Marc Maron
Right.
- [30:42]
Neko Case
So on this other contextual level, I was like, I can't trust him because that isn't real.
- [30:50]
Marc Maron
Well, and I think that having that experience as a kid kind of informs your entire position about what we're supposed to do and what we're not supposed to do. Right.
- [31:01]
Neko Case
If you had to live the life of what society means to be a good girl, you might as well just hang yourself from the shower curtain rod. Cause there's so many passion engines inside of you.
- [31:18]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [31:19]
Neko Case
That are gonna try to move you to places that are really wonderful. And if you have to choke those out, it would just be the most painful. What's the point?
- [31:32]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Because you can feel it choking from inside of you. I literally sometimes feel like I'm being strangled from inside myself.
- [31:40]
Neko Case
And I always. When I think about why wouldn't I let go of that? I think it's cause I spent so much time unsupervised in nature, and I saw how nature functioned, and there wasn't punishment for things. There were consequences for different things and, you know, cycle of life and all that. But nature just didn't act the way God supposedly did. And so there was a big contradiction there. But nature was consistent in its strangeness. Whereas adults were just always trying to make some sort of dam around things.
- [32:23]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [32:23]
Neko Case
You know, their boundaries were outsized and kind of ridiculous.
- [32:29]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Well, I think that's probably the gift of having, you know, irresponsible parents in that way.
- [32:39]
Neko Case
Yeah.
- [32:39]
Marc Maron
Like, in terms of, like, all right, you'll be okay at the house for a day.
- [32:43]
Neko Case
Yeah.
- [32:44]
Marc Maron
Or two.
- [32:45]
Neko Case
I know so many people of Gen X and older who are kind of glad for being raised that way, but also feel completely neglected at the same time or, like, just the kind of danger that you could be in.
- [33:00]
Marc Maron
Right. But, like, if you think about it, if your parents aren't going to help you by creating an environment or support so you can develop who you're supposed to be, it's better that they don't hammer it out of you and just not be there in some ways than hammer it out of you.
- [33:22]
Neko Case
Exactly.
- [33:23]
Marc Maron
I mean, it leaves it sort of an open container of, you know, you're kind of too open. And, you know, again, you're going to, you know, kind of judge yourself really harshly, but at least you can kind of get a sense of the world that's honest to you. And I think that it seems like those times where when you go back in your memory and really think about the impact of nature or what you were doing and even the patterns of behavior just out of boredom and also the manifesting of horses, whatever that was, you know, early on, that it gave you some kind of, you know, need to have a. A poetic sensibility. Like, it kind of unharnessed your imagination to make sense of the world.
- [34:11]
Neko Case
Yeah. The manifesting of horses. Maybe it was just coincidence.
- [34:17]
Marc Maron
What was that story?
- [34:19]
Neko Case
Well, I was so in love with horses from the time. Like, I remember the first time I ever touched one. I was still a baby, but I remember touching it and just feeling transported and just, you know. But I didn't have anything else to compare it to, so I just thought, this is the world. Yeah, this is the world. This is great.
- [34:42]
Marc Maron
A horse.
- [34:43]
Neko Case
Exactly. And so I was sitting on the side porch of our house in Bellingham, Washington, which was still pretty small at that time. And there was an alleyway that went past the back of our house. And I wanted to see a horse so bad. I just wanted to be near one. And I thought, okay, I'm gonna see a horse. I closed my eyes and I said, I'm gonna see a horse right now. And I opened my eyes, and I saw a white horse. And it was coming toward me, and next to it was a brown horse. And there were two young women riding these horses up the alley. And I was just like, yep, there we go.
- [35:20]
Marc Maron
Magic.
- [35:21]
Neko Case
Magic. Or just the way the world should be? You know, like, maybe that's not even magic. Maybe that's just something I should do, Feel entitled to.
- [35:30]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Women on horses.
- [35:31]
Neko Case
Yeah. Here they come. Of course they are.
- [35:32]
Marc Maron
Yeah. I'm just glad they're here.
- [35:34]
Neko Case
Yeah.
- [35:35]
Marc Maron
Yeah. I mean, some of the stuff you write in the book about, you know, your dad's house and him just, you know, disappearing into a bong in a place with, like, no furniture and the salt on the floor and all that shit, I mean, was that for years?
- [35:51]
Neko Case
Years and years and years, yeah.
- [35:54]
Marc Maron
I don't really understand how you came out with any sense of self at all.
- [36:01]
Neko Case
I often don't either. I mean, like I said, My dad, he had his moments. When I say black is blue, it's blue. That would come out now and again, but it was like some other thing was making a voice come out of him. Like, I knew that wasn't really his heart. And I was always trying to reach the person who was at his heart, and I never could.
- [36:20]
Marc Maron
Because you can feel the weight of it not being there because, you know it's in there.
- [36:25]
Neko Case
Yeah.
- [36:26]
Marc Maron
Right.
- [36:26]
Neko Case
Yeah. And, you know, I didn't know that my father had been horribly sexually abused.
- [36:33]
Marc Maron
Both your parents?
- [36:34]
Neko Case
Both my parents. And, you know, I didn't know what he was suppressing.
- [36:41]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [36:41]
Neko Case
I just knew that he was. And, you know, I didn't know he was. I don't know if he was bipolar or just depressive, but he was very depressed my whole life and drank later. Oh, yeah, that was later.
- [36:52]
Marc Maron
Weed was first.
- [36:53]
Neko Case
Weed. Yeah. Weed was just, like, constant. I do not remember a time without, like, weed smoke in the house.
- [36:59]
Marc Maron
And this is all in Washington.
- [37:01]
Neko Case
Yeah. Washington state.
- [37:03]
Marc Maron
Scary place.
- [37:04]
Neko Case
Yeah, it's a really scary place.
- [37:06]
Marc Maron
Rural Washington state.
- [37:08]
Neko Case
Well, that was like, Vancouver, Washington, Bellingham, Washington, Seattle, later. But the really rural places, I lived with my stepdad and my mom, and.
- [37:20]
Marc Maron
That was safer anyways.
- [37:22]
Neko Case
Way safer.
- [37:23]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Because of them. Yeah.
- [37:25]
Neko Case
And nature, which. Which wasn't out to get me.
- [37:28]
Marc Maron
And that was in Vermont, mostly.
- [37:30]
Neko Case
It was eastern Washington, a little bit of western Washington. Vermont.
- [37:34]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [37:35]
Neko Case
All over the place, like, wherever my stepdad's assignments were.
- [37:40]
Marc Maron
Yeah. I think what. Why the book helped me is that. That you're very able to identify through sort of feelings, but a few sort of actions that your mother resented you.
- [37:56]
Neko Case
Yes.
- [37:57]
Marc Maron
And. And I. I think it's important to identify that. And I don't know if it's easy.
- [38:03]
Neko Case
I think that I had been dealing with it for so long, it didn't hurt more.
- [38:07]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [38:08]
Neko Case
It. Like, I've. I've done so much talk therapy and. And also, you know, I'm a really open book with my friends.
- [38:14]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [38:14]
Neko Case
Like, my friends know these stories.
- [38:16]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [38:18]
Neko Case
So she was just so bizarre for so long that I just kind of had to figure out what I was helping as far as the narrative by thinking, oh, no, she didn't want me to see her die, so she left. She didn't want me to see her die of cancer.
- [38:35]
Marc Maron
Always caring for you.
- [38:36]
Neko Case
Because she loved me so much. And it's like, no, she didn't want you. And that's nothing personal. Like, I've been a young woman who was pregnant before.
- [38:45]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [38:46]
Neko Case
Like, it's not. She should have had an abortion. She should have gotten help. She should have had her own life. And I'm sure she never felt like she chose her own life.
- [38:58]
Marc Maron
Yeah. But I think there is a generation or a certain type of person that doesn't see those options.
- [39:05]
Neko Case
No. And, like, there's so much of that that I have so much compassion for her and forgive her for. What I didn't forgive her for was the fact that she would keep coming back and she would pretend to want to have a relationship with me, and then she would just pull the plug out of nowhere.
- [39:22]
Marc Maron
That's almost like torture.
- [39:24]
Neko Case
It is. It was torture and it was extreme cruelty. And, you know, there would be little signs that she just didn't. Didn't like me.
- [39:35]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [39:36]
Neko Case
I never did.
- [39:37]
Marc Maron
Yeah. And then it doesn't really end well for her.
- [39:43]
Neko Case
No. I mean, I don't know. I. Oh.
- [39:47]
Marc Maron
So when you cut off. But is she still alive?
- [39:49]
Neko Case
I have no idea.
- [39:49]
Marc Maron
You really don't know?
- [39:50]
Neko Case
I don't know. Huh. And that doesn't bother me. I don't want to know. Like, I just don't. It just. It doesn't matter, you know, it's already happened and nothing will change. And, you know, I don't know if you have this kind of thing where you choose your own family and you find people who are really reliable and close, when you have that, it doesn't matter what biological happenings have done, in a way.
- [40:21]
Marc Maron
Well, I always frame my parents as, you know, I don't really see them as parents. They're just these, you know, people I grew up with that had their own problems. So I don't have the connection that most people do. And now my dad has dementia, but there was no malice there. You know, they're still around and they're okay, but I don't feel that, you know, I would never go to them for advice or anything.
- [40:44]
Neko Case
Right.
- [40:45]
Marc Maron
Ever.
- [40:46]
Neko Case
Right. And it's so crazy to think about them as younger people and totally. And imagine the absolute vacuum of education about, like, okay, we're gonna talk about feelings, or this is what it's gonna mean to be a parent. It's literally, they're pushing you to just have a baby while you're still a child. Our society is. Or was. Then.
- [41:11]
Marc Maron
I don't know if my parents were pushing me for much of anything with any consistency, you know? And I feel like. Like, I don't like when people say that their parents did the best they could because they didn't.
- [41:23]
Neko Case
No, mine didn't either.
- [41:26]
Marc Maron
But people always fall back on that as some sort of path, a portal to, you know, acceptance that they did the best they could. I'm like, I don't know. They could have done a little more work.
- [41:38]
Neko Case
Yeah. They could have thought about, like, what. They could have thought about maybe having a kid before they had a kid. Sure. Kind of a thing.
- [41:45]
Marc Maron
Yeah, totally.
- [41:47]
Neko Case
But, you know, they weren't taught to do that either.
- [41:49]
Marc Maron
I know.
- [41:50]
Neko Case
So it's kind of like God got.
- [41:52]
Marc Maron
To let him off the hook a little.
- [41:53]
Neko Case
I let him off the hook for that. Just. Just the continued damage. No, I don't.
- [41:58]
Marc Maron
I. I thought at some point in the book I wanted to bring it up when. When you weren't developing as quickly as other girls. Do you think you were malnourished?
- [42:07]
Neko Case
Probably.
- [42:07]
Marc Maron
You know, because when you talk about what you're eating, what was. I was like, of course she wasn't growing. Right. She wasn't eating anything. Well, oh my God.
- [42:16]
Neko Case
I mean, I just thought everybody was different. So, you know, eventually I was kind of a late bloomer. Like, one day I was totally flat chested, and then the next day it's like when I turned 17, I suddenly had huge boobs.
- [42:29]
Marc Maron
It just happened.
- [42:30]
Neko Case
Yeah. And boys at school were calling me the shelf. And I was like, what the fuck just happened?
- [42:37]
Marc Maron
Yeah. And then also, you know, the sort of not struggle, but you know, how long it took for you to acknowledge or understand that you were raped.
- [42:47]
Neko Case
Yeah.
- [42:48]
Marc Maron
That because you had. You were this untethered wild child in a way, that there was this assumption. Well, that's the way it happens.
- [42:58]
Neko Case
I think there's that. But then there's also the. What we were talking about earlier, where you just decide it's my fault.
- [43:04]
Marc Maron
Right.
- [43:05]
Neko Case
So clearly I should not have taken a ride home from my friend's brother because I'm just telling him he can have sex with me.
- [43:11]
Marc Maron
Right.
- [43:11]
Neko Case
Which is not at all what I was doing.
- [43:14]
Marc Maron
And did you. Was it therapy that started to reframe your thoughts around this stuff, or did you figure it out?
- [43:20]
Neko Case
No, I just. Just one day I just finally said it in my 40s. I was like, no, I was raped.
- [43:28]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [43:30]
Neko Case
And made to feel really bad about it. And just by. I really worshiped this guy was 19 and I knew him because I was friends with his sister at school. And she was. And she was this really beautiful, cool new wave girl. And she loaned me her Nina Hagen record. And I was just like, I can't believe she's talking to me. This is so cool. And then, you know, I'd met him through her somewhere. I don't remember where. And then I was in Seattle and ran into him. And my friends wanted to go somewhere and I needed to go home. And he said, oh, I'll give you a ride home. And I thought, oh, I can trust this person.
- [44:10]
Marc Maron
Yeah, his sister's cool.
- [44:11]
Neko Case
Yeah. And then so when I came back to school after being raped by her brother, she acted like I was a non entity. And because I brought her record back to her and she just kind of ripped it out of my hand and was talking to her friends, like. And I tell my brother to stay away from idiot little girls and stuff like that. And I was like, oh, I really did fuck that up.
- [44:31]
Marc Maron
Wow.
- [44:32]
Neko Case
Because, you know, she was a big deal to me and.
- [44:34]
Marc Maron
Yeah, you wanted acceptance.
- [44:35]
Neko Case
Exactly.
- [44:36]
Marc Maron
So there's just like. It's just like. There's no end to the heartbreak. Nico. Of your life.
- [44:44]
Neko Case
Well, I think it's probably most people's experience, to be honest with you. I don't know any women who haven't been sexually assaulted or had dudes drive up in their car jerking off at them or. I just. I don't know any. And the more I get close to other people, like, I don't really know any men. Like, a lot of the men I know had the same experiences.
- [45:11]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [45:12]
Neko Case
Like, there's just this. This absolutely unacceptable sickness around children that people take for granted. Like. Oh, you know, So I don't. I don't know. It's just. It's so wrong and gross. And obviously the current climate of our country is, you know, people just don't care if women get raped.
- [45:38]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [45:38]
Neko Case
They just don't. And we're kind of finding out that they don't really care if children get raped either.
- [45:43]
Marc Maron
Right.
- [45:44]
Neko Case
Like, it's supposed to be our great moral compass as Americans that we really. We wouldn't have that. But we don't really have a moral compass.
- [45:52]
Marc Maron
That's true.
- [45:52]
Neko Case
We're just kind of comfortable and gross.
- [45:55]
Marc Maron
Yeah. More gross.
- [45:57]
Neko Case
Well, white people, anyway.
- [45:58]
Marc Maron
There are plenty of uncomfortable people now. But the dominant forces doubling down on, you know, horrific immorality.
- [46:08]
Neko Case
Yeah.
- [46:09]
Marc Maron
So when does music become the salvation, though? I mean, because it. Like you. We went to art school, but it didn't seem like you were moving towards that. It seemed to happen kind of like bam.
- [46:21]
Neko Case
Well, music was always there and I always loved it.
- [46:24]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [46:26]
Neko Case
And singing along with things. I was always alone, so I could do that. And I just loved playing in bands. I was a really butch little kid.
- [46:36]
Marc Maron
But you remember these moments where rock and Roll kind of blew you away music.
- [46:42]
Neko Case
Yeah.
- [46:43]
Marc Maron
But Back in Black, that's a good one.
- [46:45]
Neko Case
Yeah. Just the feeling of the whole room and, you know, just watching every kid in the room just be like, yes, this is great.
- [46:53]
Marc Maron
And some kid just brought it in.
- [46:55]
Neko Case
Yeah, Rudy.
- [46:55]
Marc Maron
Yeah. You need Rudy's.
- [46:58]
Neko Case
Rudy was the best. And Rudy made a great memory that day.
- [47:03]
Marc Maron
Yeah. It's a good record.
- [47:04]
Neko Case
It's such a great record. I still listen to it all the time.
- [47:07]
Marc Maron
I heard some of it yesterday. It just came up on some. I listened to Black Sabbath and then the phone just kept picking things and it came up and I was like, all right, I'm kind of a Bon Scott guy, but I'll take that album of Brian Johnson.
- [47:21]
Neko Case
We can have both.
- [47:22]
Marc Maron
Yeah. But I don't find myself engaging with the catalog post. Back in Black.
- [47:28]
Neko Case
Not so much. Couple songs here and there, but not so much.
- [47:30]
Marc Maron
But I'll go back and listen to High Voltage Daily if I could.
- [47:35]
Neko Case
Dirty Deeds.
- [47:35]
Marc Maron
Yeah, that's a good one.
- [47:36]
Neko Case
So good.
- [47:37]
Marc Maron
So. But in terms of women in rock, you know, because I, I. I felt like in Kathleen's book, there was, you know, a void there. And also, you know, what you dealt with. There's also this, you know, fuck you. There's also the maleness of the whole world of music. But what was the time? I know you talk about in the book meeting the one of L7, right.
- [48:05]
Neko Case
Yes.
- [48:06]
Marc Maron
And you felt small.
- [48:08]
Neko Case
I felt small, but in a way that it was weird because it was jealousy. And so I didn't want to meet her.
- [48:18]
Marc Maron
But not jealousy because you did the same thing. Jealousy because you hadn't. You couldn't do it.
- [48:23]
Neko Case
I felt like, I want to be as great as you, but I'm not.
- [48:27]
Marc Maron
Great yet, so fuck you.
- [48:30]
Neko Case
It wasn't. I resented the situation.
- [48:33]
Marc Maron
Oh, okay. Yeah.
- [48:35]
Neko Case
But I'm sure I did resent her too, because, like, I wasn't developed enough to understand the difference between the two things. It's just like feeling bad. Feeling. It's her. Yes, her.
- [48:46]
Marc Maron
Right.
- [48:46]
Neko Case
You know what I mean?
- [48:47]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [48:48]
Neko Case
So it was a little more caveman than the way I understand it now.
- [48:51]
Marc Maron
Right. But it's interesting to me that, because I didn't come up in music, but it just seems like a lot of people, like when you were in Vancouver in college, that there are people that aren't necessarily good musicians, but they want to play, so they figure it out. And I find that to be impressive because you weren't. I mean, you played drums.
- [49:15]
Neko Case
Yeah.
- [49:16]
Marc Maron
But you weren't necessarily a drummer. Until you decided.
- [49:19]
Neko Case
No, I really wanted to be a drummer. And it's really, like, I really put my identity there, but I couldn't separate my hands from my feet and I still can't with.
- [49:30]
Marc Maron
Oh. So everything happens at the same time.
- [49:31]
Neko Case
So, like, I couldn't, you know, separate. And so there was no, you know, offbeat or. It just didn't work.
- [49:40]
Marc Maron
Right.
- [49:41]
Neko Case
I'm great when I don't have to use my feet.
- [49:43]
Marc Maron
Right. But it worked good enough to be in a band that won a prize in college.
- [49:47]
Neko Case
Yeah. And it was really fun.
- [49:49]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [49:49]
Neko Case
And great exercise and touring was what I needed to learn about, and that got me there.
- [49:58]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Like, when does that start, though? Because it seems like you had the desire to do it no matter what, and you kind of innately knew that that's how you were gonna get good.
- [50:07]
Neko Case
Yeah.
- [50:07]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [50:08]
Neko Case
And, you know, just. It was part of music, was going on tour and all my friends were doing it.
- [50:15]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [50:15]
Neko Case
And I was hoping I would get my chance. And finally being a drummer made that possible. And I toured with a band called Cub because their drummer couldn't go. And we went on a couple really long, really amazing tours, and I just took to it like a duck to water. I just. I loved the lifestyle. I loved, you know, the adrenaline and the long hours and the driving from place to place and seeing new things. Like, I was seeing the world.
- [50:44]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [50:45]
Neko Case
Places I'd never been to.
- [50:47]
Marc Maron
And then when you walked into. Through, you know, connections with, you know, different musicians and different people who had studios and producers, that you had a community, it seemed in. In Canada for a minute that you got an opportunity to, you know, do a solo project. And then you were kind of, you know, the. The life was dangled in front of you and then taken away.
- [51:10]
Neko Case
Yeah. I. I had the great fortune of not being signed to a major label.
- [51:17]
Marc Maron
But after they put you through the whole, like, you're the one.
- [51:19]
Neko Case
Yeah, you're going to be great.
- [51:20]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [51:21]
Neko Case
You know, and they would buy me stuff and take me out to dinner and fly me to la, and I thought I was pretty cool. And then they didn't.
- [51:29]
Marc Maron
And then after that, was that the first real kind of breakdown?
- [51:36]
Neko Case
Well, I had. I had been dumped by my boyfriend, who I'd been with for quite a long time, I thought, and dumped by his family also. And so I was just like, fuck, yeah. You know, I'm really fucking up. Like, I must be a bad person. Like, this is. You know, I must be a shitty musician. And I must. I just. But. But the way they. The way the people from the record company handled it, they handled it so badly that I didn't trust that either.
- [52:07]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [52:07]
Neko Case
So I'm kind of glad they. They did handle it badly. They just kind of ghosted me.
- [52:11]
Marc Maron
Right.
- [52:12]
Neko Case
And so I just kept going because I didn't know what else to do.
- [52:16]
Marc Maron
Yeah, you kind of were committed to the life and you chose country initially.
- [52:22]
Neko Case
I did, because I loved it and I grew up with it. And, you know, country music, there was something in it that was so much more punk rock than what was going on.
- [52:34]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [52:35]
Neko Case
In punk rock.
- [52:36]
Marc Maron
Right.
- [52:36]
Neko Case
Like, that was all dudes at that point, and they were all saying the same shit. And.
- [52:41]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [52:41]
Neko Case
You know.
- [52:42]
Marc Maron
Right.
- [52:42]
Neko Case
It was really boring.
- [52:44]
Marc Maron
But it's interesting on this record, on the new record, I think it's the Rusty Mountain. It's interesting because when I think of love songs of any kind, a lot of them are country, like the real ones. Like, I think that the punk rock element of country is the humanity of the feelings expressed.
- [53:05]
Neko Case
Yes, exactly. And that's been beaten out of country music.
- [53:08]
Marc Maron
Sure. It's been beaten out of most things.
- [53:10]
Neko Case
Yeah.
- [53:10]
Marc Maron
You know, it's almost like an angry acceptance of the fragility of life. Right. You know, like, it's not quite the blues, but in the sense that that was kind of a different life. But it seems like country, it was just par for the course that, you know, someone's going to get murdered, someone's going to leave you, someone's going to fuck your friend. And it was just. That's the narrative. It's real human. And in that song, though, I noticed that there. There is this sort of idea that, you know, love songs aren't really enough.
- [53:49]
Neko Case
Not at all. They're usually. They usually fall pretty short of the mark. But it doesn't mean that the really good ones aren't really good.
- [53:59]
Marc Maron
Well, I mean, just like, even if you just go, you know, back to, like, that. You know, whatever, that kind of minimal catalog of Hank Williams, you're like, it's sort of. Most of it is there, and it's.
- [54:12]
Neko Case
True and it's simple. And it's like, you know, Johnny Cash can do it, too. And you go, and the Carter Family can do it.
- [54:20]
Marc Maron
Oh, my God. So good. Right?
- [54:23]
Neko Case
Yeah. And everybody wants to do that.
- [54:27]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [54:27]
Neko Case
And it's like, no, you got to do your own love song. That's why it's not working.
- [54:31]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [54:32]
Neko Case
And your love song, maybe your love song, is like a chair with two legs on it. You know, you gotta just. You gotta get in There.
- [54:39]
Marc Maron
Because throughout your story, there's an influx of different art, you know, both musically, visually, whatever. There's an education going on there that comes from being around creative people that, you know, whether it's punk rock or women doing their kind of personalized version of whatever it is they're going to do that's outside of mainstream kind of guy rock and then just visual arts and other kinds of things. Because it seems at some point, like, what was that early live record? Which one was that? Furnace. Which is the one.
- [55:14]
Neko Case
Oh, the Tigers have spoken.
- [55:16]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Because, like, I listen to that, I'm like, and you're fucking on fire. And it's so clear that, you know, when I read the book that, you know, all that energy, you know, that converges in confidence of delivering those songs, that, you know, you had a sense of what it takes to get people, you know, paying attention on the dance floor coming to see you and just rocking their fucking head off. Right. And that was important.
- [55:39]
Neko Case
Yeah. And that was important to me. And I might not have had the kind of self confidence to do that yet. And that's what the Sadie's brought to that record.
- [55:53]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [55:53]
Neko Case
Is I knew that they were undeniable. They are absolutely undeniable in their talents.
- [55:59]
Marc Maron
And you felt carried.
- [56:00]
Neko Case
I felt carried. I felt like part of the gang that I wanted to be a part of. I never, ever at any time. I had the kind of the opposite experience of you. I didn't really play by myself. I didn't enjoy it. I wanted to be in a gang.
- [56:15]
Marc Maron
And you had to figure out how to play.
- [56:16]
Neko Case
I wanted to be in a band.
- [56:16]
Marc Maron
Yeah, you had to figure out how to play guitar.
- [56:18]
Neko Case
Exactly. And that took a while. And I kind of did that a little by myself.
- [56:22]
Marc Maron
What is that guitar you use? Because I.
- [56:24]
Neko Case
It's a tenor guitar.
- [56:25]
Marc Maron
I never knew what they were. I never knew about them.
- [56:27]
Neko Case
I didn't know about them until I was 30. So believe me, I was. I was dumbfounded and excited and just like, okay, what's the tuning?
- [56:35]
Marc Maron
Is it like a ukulele?
- [56:36]
Neko Case
It's. It's like. I think the standard tuning for it is like a mandolin, but you can do it like the high strings of a guitar. So. Dgbe.
- [56:44]
Marc Maron
Right.
- [56:45]
Neko Case
So you can play. If you learned chords on a regular guitar, and that's standard tuning. You can play it easily.
- [56:50]
Marc Maron
Just play the bottom. Yeah.
- [56:51]
Neko Case
And it does the job. And my tiny little fingers were able to get around. And now that I've played that for a long time, I can actually play a full Size guitar. But it took a long time and I just was an impatient ADHD kid. And the amount of discipline and practice that it would have taken to play a six string guitar, I did not have it. I did not have that focus.
- [57:15]
Marc Maron
But you had the voice.
- [57:17]
Neko Case
I guess I did.
- [57:17]
Marc Maron
You didn't seem to love at the beginning.
- [57:21]
Neko Case
I love doing it. It was the passion of the doing it, the feeling of doing it, because it felt like you could just levitate off the floor while you were doing it.
- [57:30]
Marc Maron
Right. When does. Because the albums do get more sophisticated musically, at some point, do you make a conscious decision to kind of move away from the confines of country? Do you remember the records you did that with?
- [57:47]
Neko Case
It was more that I wasn't just a musician, I was a producer. And I was very much in love with ideas. And ideas make ideas. They breed like rabbits and the rabbit holes are so worth exploring. And I wanted all the sounds that there could be. And I was really interested in Eastern sounds and specifically Bulgarian singing. And there's something about the drone that gives you whiplash. You're like, what is that sound? Humans make that sound.
- [58:22]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [58:23]
Neko Case
It's an arresting sound.
- [58:24]
Marc Maron
Totally.
- [58:25]
Neko Case
And when I found that music, I suddenly. You know that Disney cartoon of the ugly duckling where the duckling is all sad and then the swan comes along and kind of pokes it and then it feels better. I felt like that little duck. Cause I have a very nasal voice. And I never felt like I sang pretty, you know, and that didn't bother me. But I never knew where I fit in either. Like, I didn't understand what my voice was for. And then when I heard these ensembles of women making these sounds, and each of them, minus, say, Georgieva in Boutril Borgarka, they have very nasal voices. And that is their strength, is they just project this laser sound out of their foreheads.
- [59:17]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [59:17]
Neko Case
And I was like, wow, that is so ancient and so arresting. And I wonder if it was weaponized in ancient cultures, like, to scare people. Because it's terrifying.
- [59:28]
Marc Maron
Almost like a magical power.
- [59:30]
Neko Case
Exactly.
- [59:30]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [59:31]
Neko Case
And you know, that is our magical power. It's one of our magical powers as human beings. Like, you know how you might love to watch Planet Earth and. And David Attenborough's talking about cheetahs and he's talking about how wonderful they are. If there was a show about humans like that, harmony singing would be one of those things.
- [59:49]
Marc Maron
I think I see it in sumo wrestling.
- [59:51]
Neko Case
Sumo wrestling?
- [59:52]
Marc Maron
Yeah, the grunting sort of. The physicality of it. Even though it's it has rules and a sport. But there is something that I think really shows the human animal element.
- [60:06]
Neko Case
Yeah. The kind of feral part.
- [60:07]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah, I know.
- [60:08]
Neko Case
That's so cool. And.
- [60:11]
Marc Maron
Or the dances that the natives of New Zealand do. That kind of aggressive.
- [60:16]
Neko Case
The haka.
- [60:16]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah.
- [60:17]
Neko Case
That's powerful stuff. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, harmony singing would be one of those things. Or, you know how when a big group of people who can't sing sing at the same time. Like, you feel like you want to start crying, that weird. Like. Like, you catch your breath. Like, that's one of the things we can do. That's absolutely magnificent.
- [60:36]
Marc Maron
Oh. Anytime harmonies happen or musicals happen, or anytime there's a lot of people singing all at once, I can't help but, like, tear up. It's fucking nuts.
- [60:45]
Neko Case
And I love it.
- [60:46]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [60:46]
Neko Case
It's like I'm still a human animal. I love this feeling.
- [60:50]
Marc Maron
So that kind of reconfigured the way you approached music.
- [60:54]
Neko Case
I just felt a little more confident, like, you know, I follow a lot of indigenous people who talk about their spirituality and, you know, their view of the world, and it's kind of the closest thing to, like, old Ukrainian stuff.
- [61:16]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Which is where you come from.
- [61:18]
Neko Case
Yeah. And a lot of people, especially people who are indigenous, talk about the importance of ancestors, and I don't have any ancestors. I'm a settler. You know, I'm a child of immigrants, and I am an invasive species here in North America. And so many people have this background here where you're just cut off from your ancestors, especially because we came in the era where you're not supposed to publicize your ethnicity. You need to blend in with America right now. We're Americans now. We don't speak Ukrainian. We don't talk about it. We're Americans. And so I had no ancestral support or foundation whatsoever, but in finding Trio Bulgarka, I felt like I had an ancestor.
- [62:07]
Marc Maron
Huh.
- [62:08]
Neko Case
And I felt legitimate somehow.
- [62:11]
Marc Maron
Yeah. And then you found your great aunt that was a wrestler.
- [62:15]
Neko Case
Yes, yes.
- [62:16]
Marc Maron
So those two things.
- [62:18]
Neko Case
Absolutely. Aunt Ella, how did that happen again? It was the craziest story. My friend Ruth, Ruth Lightman, she was making a movie called Lipstick and Dynamite about, you know, kind of the first. The. The forerunners of the. The females in wrestling, the women in wrestling. And she sent Kelly Hogan and I some footage so that. Because she wanted us to be part of the soundtrack. And I was watching it, and my aunt's, like, the third person who comes along. She's like, my real name is Elsie Shevchenko. From Custer, Washington. And I was like, that's my last name. And I was like, we were the only Ukrainians there, so. And my grandmother, luckily, was still alive at the time, so I called my grandma. I'm like, grandma, do we have a wrestling relative? She's like, oh, yes, Elsie. She was quite famous. I'm like, why would you never tell me this person? I don't know. You didn't ask, you know, and so.
- [63:17]
Marc Maron
You could have had a hero.
- [63:19]
Neko Case
Well, she's definitely one of my heroes now. And I did get to meet her, and it was really lovely. And I got to know a lot more about her through my friend Ruth, who's very generous and has told me a lot more about her.
- [63:33]
Marc Maron
But what years was the wrestling? Was it spectacle wrestling or was it.
- [63:37]
Neko Case
It was like 50s and 60s. So she started as a roller derby person, and then she made her way into wrestling, and then she accidentally, in a match, killed her opponent. And it wasn't her fault. There was something going on with the woman. And so she was made to be this horrible villain and a horrible person, and she actually felt really terrible. It wasn't something that was meant to do, but, you know, wrestling is very physical and dangerous, even if you aren't doing it, Even if it's spectacle wrestling, it's still super dangerous.
- [64:19]
Marc Maron
Oh, no, it's real. It's real. It's real sport. Yeah. And when you met her, did you see yourself in her?
- [64:27]
Neko Case
Well, I saw myself in her when Ruth told me that she's really a softie and she really likes to write poetry. And I was like, aw, it was super butch, like, poetry writing. Ding dong. And you know who I did, I felt really validated to know that Elsie Shevchenko, like, who goes out to become a wrestler in the 50s when you're a woman.
- [64:58]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah.
- [64:59]
Neko Case
Like, who does that?
- [65:00]
Marc Maron
Well, I mean, the same kind of person that goes into rock and roll, I suppose.
- [65:05]
Neko Case
Like, rock and roll is basically mainstream compared to being a wrestler in the 50s, though, as a woman, like, that's.
- [65:12]
Marc Maron
It feels like roller derby was pretty. It was something. And I think wrestling was always something because it was always happening to the side. But it was kind of a thing. I remember growing up in New Mexico, and I did it. I was on the show Glow the Gorgeous Ladies.
- [65:26]
Neko Case
I did. I watched that.
- [65:27]
Marc Maron
Yeah. But before that, I just remember growing up and there was always a local station that had wrestlers, and it was just unitards and, you know, dudes. And I remember those wrestling magazines. So it's always been sort of a fairly, at least marginally popular American spectacle. And I remember rower derby, too, and that was always women, so. Right. So it was kind of like the companion to male wrestling must have been this roller derby world.
- [65:58]
Neko Case
Yeah. Because they did have male roller derby, but it wasn't popular.
- [66:01]
Marc Maron
Right.
- [66:01]
Neko Case
Only the women's events were popular. Yeah. Which is kind of, you know, the opposite of how things usually are. But.
- [66:08]
Marc Maron
So I guess somebody at some point said, like, you girls are tough. Let's. Let's try this wrestling thing. And they figured it out.
- [66:15]
Neko Case
Yeah. And. And my aunt grew up farming, so she was pretty buff, pretty tough. Yeah.
- [66:20]
Marc Maron
So, like, when you look at the arc of, like, the records that got you here, I mean, how do you feel your songwriting is different now? Do you? Because, you know, it seems like through the book, you landed a place of, you know, wisdom and a certain amount of confidence in how you're interpreting your life. How is it different for you?
- [66:45]
Neko Case
I question myself a lot less as far as my intent. But the little things, like the technical things, I'm always working on those, and I question myself on those things.
- [66:57]
Marc Maron
In writing a song.
- [66:59]
Neko Case
Yeah. Like, once, I usually start by singing into the air or writing lyrics first. But sometimes I'll start on a guitar.
- [67:07]
Marc Maron
How does melody happen?
- [67:09]
Neko Case
I just sing that into the air.
- [67:11]
Marc Maron
Really?
- [67:11]
Neko Case
Yeah.
- [67:12]
Marc Maron
Huh.
- [67:13]
Neko Case
I was one of those kids who.
- [67:14]
Marc Maron
Was always singing and just kind of riffing. Making it up.
- [67:18]
Neko Case
Yeah, just making it up. And then, you know, now I just kind of sing it into my phone. And if I don't have musical education, so I can't. I know some chords on a guitar, and I know things about engineering, and I know things about production. But if I were to go, I'm gonna play every single chord that could happen underneath this particular line. I couldn't do it because I don't have the chops at all. But luckily, I have a great friend named Paul Rigby, who is a trained jazz musician who loves nothing more than to tell me. Which, like, could play me every single chord that could go under a certain part.
- [67:54]
Marc Maron
Oh, wow.
- [67:54]
Neko Case
And so we have this nice partnership where I'm like, paul, this isn't working. What's every single note that could go under there? And so we figure that out, or I'll have two kind of disparate pieces, and I want them to go together, but I don't know how to put them together. I'll be like, paul, how do we do this? And he's a problem solver, and that's, like, what gives him his music boner for lack of a better term. And so. So it's a really fun collaborative thing.
- [68:23]
Marc Maron
Yeah. And I think it seems like once you locked in with that original band, you certainly appreciated collaboration and that just probably expanded as you get older.
- [68:34]
Neko Case
Yeah. And I thought for a long time, like, if I didn't write the song by myself, I was not a legitimate songwriter, so I wrote songs by myself. It was lonely. I didn't enjoy it as much.
- [68:46]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [68:46]
Neko Case
So I, like, I always wanted to be in a gang. Like I said, I didn't want to be alone.
- [68:52]
Marc Maron
Sometimes he'll come in with lyrics and just bang it out with him. Yeah.
- [68:55]
Neko Case
Or I'll just, like, sing it into my phone and go, what key is this in? You know, I can figure that out myself, but.
- [69:01]
Marc Maron
And how did the Pornographers help?
- [69:07]
Neko Case
The Pornographers was a masterclass in singing and odd melody and harmony.
- [69:15]
Marc Maron
I somehow kind of missed the, you know, the impact of them. And I listened to it recently, and it's just like wild, powerful pop stuff. You kind of got thrown into that.
- [69:29]
Neko Case
Well, I was going to school in Canada and playing in a band with my two friends, Karina and Toby. We were a band called Mao. And everybody knew each other because Canada, though it may be the largest country in the world, it has one of the smallest populations. And so it was absolutely opposite of what America was like. America looked at music like sports and being competitive, whereas in Canada, it was like potluck. It was like, okay, if we're gonna have a band and we're gonna ask this person to be the bass player, we're gonna have to accept that they're already in three other bands because there's just not. The personnel, like, the personnel pool is very limited. But it was really a great way to learn things. And the sense of community from it was amazing. And I'm so glad I unlearned the American way of doing things.
- [70:19]
Marc Maron
Oh, yeah. So that freed you.
- [70:21]
Neko Case
So freeing and being able to accept other people and being happy for other people when they would be successful. You know, those things are really important if you want to grow.
- [70:30]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Canadians are pretty good. There's a ceiling, you know, that it's not Americanized in that greedy, competitive, kind of, you know, fucked up way. I've noticed that across the board.
- [70:41]
Neko Case
I mean, there are. There are people there like that.
- [70:43]
Marc Maron
Sure.
- [70:43]
Neko Case
But, you know, this was. This was very practical and very, very friendly and great.
- [70:50]
Marc Maron
And it gave you, like, a sort of an education in possibilities, but also confidence in singing, I imagine.
- [70:58]
Neko Case
Yeah. And I was, you know, Carl, the main songwriter, he. He was in a band called Zimpano, and before that, a band called Superconductor. And both of those bands were so huge for me. I was so into them because Carl could really sing. And at that time, a lot of bands were not interested in melody. It was mostly about being punk rock and tough and all this other stuff. Whereas Dan and Carl, they would openly admit to liking things like poetry in interviews. And I was just so blown away because nobody was man enough to say that they liked poetry.
- [71:35]
Marc Maron
Oh, wow.
- [71:35]
Neko Case
Yeah. They just were not. And so I was. They kind of threw me for a loop. But the melodies were so undeniable.
- [71:41]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [71:42]
Neko Case
And so wonderful. And I was such a fan of both of them. So when Carl asked me to be in the band, I was really taken aback.
- [71:49]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [71:49]
Neko Case
And I felt very special.
- [71:51]
Marc Maron
That's great. They're great records. You know what other song I like on this one that, like, struck me was the. The spider one. Little Gears.
- [71:58]
Neko Case
Yeah.
- [71:59]
Marc Maron
I like that song.
- [72:00]
Neko Case
Thank you.
- [72:01]
Marc Maron
It's almost like a Leonard Cohen song.
- [72:03]
Neko Case
Well, I noticed that you notice all the little ecosystems going around your house too. And it's like when you're a person who notices things, you have a connection to your world.
- [72:15]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Yeah. But also like to sort of, kind of expound on it and metaphorize it. It's good.
- [72:23]
Neko Case
Yeah. If we can't take lessons from little spiders, you know.
- [72:27]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [72:28]
Neko Case
We're not that important.
- [72:29]
Marc Maron
I know. It's all so heartbreaking, though, sometimes.
- [72:32]
Neko Case
I know it is. But when you realize how small you really are, it's so comforting. Oh, God, it's so nice.
- [72:41]
Marc Maron
Well, it's good talking to you.
- [72:42]
Neko Case
Nice talking to you too.
- [72:43]
Marc Maron
You feel all right?
- [72:44]
Neko Case
I do. I have to tell you a story about a dream I had about you.
- [72:49]
Marc Maron
Really?
- [72:50]
Neko Case
Yeah. It was the nicest dream.
- [72:52]
Marc Maron
Oh, good.
- [72:53]
Neko Case
So I had this dream that I was late for something and I was gonna miss this thing, or I was going to this thing that was really, really, really important and it meant the world to me, and it would mean that I did something good or something. So I was at this weird gymnasium or something, and I went into the gymnasium and nobody was there. I had missed it. And I walked into the middle room and I was like, oh, it was like a dance or something. And then you were there, and you were like, oh, hey, I think you missed it. And I was like, yeah, I can see that. And you were like, ah, that sucks. I was like, yeah. And you were like, you wanna dance? And I said, yeah. And so and it was one of those moments, like there wasn't like sexuality behind it.
- [73:44]
Marc Maron
Right.
- [73:44]
Neko Case
It was like true friendship. Like a non gendered beautiful. And. And we slow danced to it was a combination of Twilight time by the Platters and if I could be with you by Louis Armstrong.
- [74:00]
Marc Maron
Nice.
- [74:00]
Neko Case
And I felt so much better. And then I woke up and I felt really good.
- [74:03]
Marc Maron
Oh, well, I'm glad.
- [74:04]
Neko Case
So thank you for that.
- [74:04]
Marc Maron
I'm glad I showed up in the dream.
- [74:06]
Neko Case
You did. You totally showed up for me. I appreciate that.
- [74:08]
Marc Maron
Yeah. In the book too, those dreams that you recounted at the end were great. Dreams are great if you can hold onto them. And then the whole sort of of, you know, the continuing the finishing of the arc of this sort of putting horses and women into context was pretty great.
- [74:23]
Neko Case
Yeah. Like, we don't want to fuck horses. We just want to be horses, man.
- [74:30]
Marc Maron
All right. Thanks for coming.
- [74:31]
Neko Case
You're so welcome. Thanks for having me.
- [74:33]
Marc Maron
Yeah, There you go. And just if you. If you're curious and you want to know what's up with Nico, you can go to nicocase.com for her tour dates and to order her new album, Neon Grey Midnight Green. You can also get her memoir, the harder I fight, the more I love you. Wherever you get books. Hang out for a minute, folks. Hey, folks. It's a fast paced world. And if you run a business, your customers better be able to get a hold of you right away. If they can't reach you, they'll move on to someone they can fast. With OpenPhone, you won't lose any customers by missing their calls. OpenPhone is the number one business phone system that streamlines and scales your customer communications. It works through an app on your phone or computer. So no more carrying two phones or using a landline. And instead of voicemail, OpenPhone gives you an AI agent that can handle calls after hours, answer questions, capture leads, and more. You'll be covered at all times. OpenPhone is offering WTF listeners 20% off your first six months at openphone.com WTF? That's O P E N P H O-N-E.com WTF. And if you have existing numbers with another service, OpenPhone will move them over at no extra charge. Open Phone. No missed calls, no missed customers. Okay. Hey, people. We did a bonus episode for full Marin subscribers this week covering the making of my four comedy albums from 2002 to 2011. It's a good one. Final Engagement, which. All right, this is going to sound.
- [76:12]
Neko Case
Dark, but if you had died before. Wtf.
- [76:18]
Marc Maron
Yeah, you would be remembered for this album.
- [76:21]
Neko Case
Like it would be one of those.
- [76:22]
Marc Maron
Things that people talk about that are like that guy, he burned hot and fast and that was the end of him. But man, that you gotta listen to that thing. Like it would be one of those legends, legendary things. Yeah. And I think only the fact that you have a different story in your life now, that happened, you know, by way of the podcast and by way of just your growth and everything, it does not become a defining point in your legacy. But look, I just listened to it again. It is bracing. Like, and I will still I've said this to you before, it's got absolutely some of your best stuff and it's got some of your wrongest stuff in it for sure. But that part about how racism is just about. Yeah, white racism is founded in a fear of White racists are paralyzed with fear that brown people without them and surround them and make them powerless and that's just a horrifying nightmare to them. But on a deeper level, white racists are afraid that brown people will them and make everybody brown and then they won't know who to hate anymore. And that's a deeper fear because you can brown up white in one generation. You understand that, right? All it takes is one brown load to make white brown. And a white racist knows that it takes eons to un brown white. If that's even possible. To get every bonus episode and all episodes of WTF ad free, sign up for the full Marin just go to the link in the episode description or go to wtfpod.com and click on WTF Plus. And a reminder before we go. This podcast is hosted by Acast. This is a one take guitar riff. I'm in a hurry. I gotta go. The doctor Samur lives monkey and la fonta cat angels everywhere.