1000th Episode Special

Summary

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WW2 Pod: We Have Ways of Making You Talk – 1000th Episode Special

Date: July 20, 2026
Hosts: Al Murray & James Holland
Special Guests & Contributors: Tony Pastor (Goalhanger Co-founder), Joey McCarthy (former producer)

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Episode Overview

The 1000th episode of "We Have Ways of Making You Talk" is a jubilant, freewheeling celebration of the podcast’s remarkable journey—from humble beginnings in Al’s kitchen to becoming a hub for serious history fans and a thriving community. Al Murray and James Holland, alongside producer Tony Pastor and past producer Joey McCarthy, look back on the show’s origins, standout moments, community-building, and the surprising impact they’ve made in the world of WWII history podcasting. There’s plenty of trademark banter, moving remembrance, and historical nerding out, all delivered with the irreverent humour and deep expertise fans have come to love.

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How It All Began

The Origin Story

• James recounts: Initially tried to raise money for a WWII film adaptation, which led him into the orbit of Goalhanger Films co-founder Tony Pastor at the RAF Club. (04:01)
  • James Holland: “We had this big, big fundraising sort of junket at the RAF Club.” (04:14)
• Tony’s family WWII connection: His Maltese heritage, grandparents’ wartime marriage, and arrival in the UK on D-Day. (04:53)
• Al & Tony's sports history overlap: Both met when Goalhanger was focused on football documentaries.
  • Al Murray: “He’s in your orbit. I think he’s on the radar rather than the orbit.” (05:56)
• Genesis of the podcast: Tony Pastor proposes a WWII podcast. James immediately suggests Al as his co-host, given their history-geek conversations.
  • James Holland: “You and I, by that stage, were having not infrequent meetups where we’d chew the cud and talk about the war.” (06:39)

Early Format & Naming

• Initial plan: To feature artifacts and structure the show carefully—quickly abandoned for natural conversation.
• The name:
  • James Holland: “You came up with ‘Achtung, Achtung’ and ‘We Have Ways of Making You Talk’.” (09:43)
  • Al Murray: “We can’t rebrand this late in the day. We’re not Consignia, we’re not the Post Office!” (09:54)
• First ever podcast recording: James from the Eagle’s Nest in Berchtesgaden, live on Zoom, exemplifying the podcast’s intrepid style. (15:20, Joey McCarthy’s story)

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Community-Building and Pandemic Era

Creation of the ‘Independent Company’

• During the COVID-19 pandemic, the show pivoted to daily content and livestreaming, building a strong online community.
  • Al Murray: “We started creating that community... called the Independent Company because you’re a sucker for airborne.” (17:28)
• Interactive live streams: Weekly Band of Brothers watches, virtual hangouts with listeners.
  • Tony Pastor: “The community... is our strongest, most impassioned community. We have built the show around them.” (20:04)
• Listener-contributed merch: From inside jokes to “Eat the effin soup” T-shirts. (19:48)

We Have Ways Fest

• In-person festivals began post-lockdown, becoming a focal point for the community.
  • James Holland: “There was a sense of release, a real crackle... of everyone finally meeting.” (21:22)
• Festival highlights: Meeting listeners, writers, and seeing the tangible impact on attendees.
  • Al Murray: “People have become historians... if nothing else, that’s the thing I high-five myself about.” (26:35)

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Memorable Stories & Classic Antics

Mishaps, Vehicles, and Adventures

• Driving T-34 tanks, flying in Swordfish bombers, Spitfires, Mustangs, and re-enacting the Dam Busters raid in a Cessna (with a very airsick Joey).
  • Joey McCarthy: “Al and James are having the time of their life recording a podcast in the air. But all of it is useless because in the back... vomiting for 45 minutes straight. And that, that’s showbiz.” (28:33)
• World War II ‘pilgrimages’—walking the Normandy battlefield, hedgerow antics, and accidentally being brayed at by a donkey while demonstrating fieldcraft. (29:30)

Spitfire Crash Anecdote

• James’s harrowing yet oddly joyful near-miss in a Spitfire—details on gliding, clipped undercarriage, and his unflappable optimism.
  • James Holland: “I was actually pretty calm, I’ve got to say... and then he was trying to avoid the hedge... and suddenly we were like—(sound effect)—and came down again. And Mark just said, ‘Oh shit’.” (38:47–40:01)
  • Al Murray: “If anyone’s listened to this podcast long enough, you’re aware that James Holland, someone whose toast lands butter side up.” (40:01)

Festival Antics & Listener Impact

• Listeners writing books, new careers launched (Andy Chapman, Jack Boucher, Lucy Betteridge-Dyson).
• International fans flying in (from Brazil, Alaska, the Philippines).
• Joyous wartime vehicle convoys at Arnhem—Tony’s jeep literally on fire, rescued by a WWII ambulance.
  • Tony Pastor: “I literally dived out of the Jeep before it stopped onto the side of the road with flames gushing out... I was able to... continue the journey. It was about as realistic as anything you’d ever see.” (35:15)

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The Podcast’s Unique Tone and Legacy

Blend of Scholarship and Fun

• The hosts revel in the deep, endless complexity of WWII, always returning to the “bottomless pit” of stories to uncover.
  • James Holland: “It just goes to show what a completely bottomless pit the Second World War is.” (02:55)
• Relentless humour and self-deprecation—mocking each other, riffing on their own success, and affectionate references to in-jokes and listener legends.
  • Al Murray: “We radicalized people—it’s like a history madrasa. We’ve got Second World War history madrasa!” (25:36)

Serious Reflections and Remembrance

• Stories of emotional moments at battlefields and commemorations: remembering Arnhem, flower ceremonies with Dutch schoolchildren, the meaning of liberation and sacrifice.
  • Al Murray: “People who are serious about remembrance here need to go and have a look at that and have a think about what they’re doing there... it’s truly extraordinary.” (34:12)
• The podcast’s role in democratizing history, making learning sociable, and actively shaping new historians.
  • James Holland: “My knowledge of the Second World War has risen exponentially and I know yours has too... What I’ve discovered is that you learn a hell of a lot more when you’re discussing it with a mate.” (43:00)

Meta Reflections

• The accidental nature of their success, gratitude to each other, and to the entire WW2 pod community.
  • James Holland: “I feel very fortunate.” (42:32)
  • Al Murray: “Thank you for putting up with me going, ‘Go on, tell me more about that’, and you manfully telling me more about it.” (42:33)

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “We’ve now run longer than the greatest conflict the world has ever known.” — Al Murray (03:00)
• “We all said, well, what are we going to call it? And you just went, we got to call it ‘We Have Ways of Making You Talk.’” — James Holland (09:45)
• “I was at the Eagle’s Nest. Hitler’s Austrian Alps home, recording the very first podcast there, which kind of was par for the course, for the entire pod.” — Joey McCarthy (15:20)
• “The community came to us. That’s been the really, really brilliant thing.” — Al Murray (19:51)
• “The community... is our strongest, most impassioned community. We have built the show around them.” — Tony Pastor (20:04)
• “This whole thing happened completely spontaneously during the pandemic. And then we ended up with the festival in the September after the, like, nine millionth lockdown.” — Al Murray (20:45)
• “The really, for me, the thing where you think, well, that’s why this is worthwhile. That’s why this is cool.” — Al Murray (25:36)
• “What I’ve discovered is that you learn a hell of a lot more when you’re discussing it with a mate.” — James Holland (43:00)
• “Because of the podcast, because of the regular listeners, because the Independent Company, because of the people who subscribe... those conversations would be happening anyway, but no one would have heard them.” — Al Murray (43:21)

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Episode Timeline Guide

• 02:43 – Opening: Welcome to the 1000th episode, reflections on the series’ longevity
• 03:15–06:27 – How Al, James, and Tony Pastor first met and connected over WWII and podcasting
• 07:37–09:05 – Lunch at Coach & Horses, forming the host partnership and early plans
• 09:43–10:05 – Naming the podcast and the tongue-in-cheek “branding discussion”
• 11:00–13:12 – The flexible scope of the war and the show; referencing Jonathan Fennell’s wider WWII chronology
• 15:20 – First episode story from producer Joey McCarthy at the Eagle’s Nest (Berchtesgaden)
• 17:28–20:04 – The creation of the Independent Company community during the pandemic
• 21:22–26:35 – The first We Have Ways festival and the emotional impact of turning listeners into historians
• 27:08–29:30 – Adventures: T-34s, Spitfires, aerial stunts (and producer airsickness!)
• 29:30–31:08 – Normandy and Arnhem battlefields: fieldcraft, anecdotes, remembrance
• 34:12–36:05 – Deep reflections on liberation, ceremony, and the rituals at Oosterbeek cemetery
• 36:14–40:01 – Spitfire adventure and crash landing (James’s story)
• 42:43–44:06 – Gratitude: Thank yous to fellow hosts, production team, listener community

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Final Thoughts

The episode is as much a love letter to the podcast’s community as to WWII history itself, blending the hosts’ deep curiosity and expertise with warmth, humility, and irrepressible humour. The 1000th episode isn’t just a milestone—it’s a testament to the enduring fascination with WWII and the surprising power of podcasts to create new historians and cherished friends.

See you at the next Fest!

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Transcript

[Al Murray]

Thank you for listening to we have ways of making you talk. Sign up to our Patreon to receive bonus content, live streams and our weekly newsletter with money off books and museum visits as well. Plus early access to all live show tickets. That's patreon.com wehaveways.

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[Al Murray]

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[James Holland]

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[Al Murray]

Yep, the check takes about 60 seconds. I ran my details and a couple of old agreements popped out without needing any relic registration numbers.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

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[Al Murray]

How about that? The Financial Conduct Authority confir that millions of UK drivers were hit with hidden commissions. And if you finance more than one car since 2007, each could be a separate claim. With the average payout at 829 pounds a pop, it all adds up.

[James Holland]

If you're a driver in the UK,

[Al Murray]

visit refundclub.co.uk whw that's refundclub.co.uk whW for your free check. That's what we used to say. Yes, we still do occasionally.

[James Holland]

Danger. Danger.

[Al Murray]

Exactly. Alarm. Alarm.

[James Holland]

Fire in the hole.

[Al Murray]

Fire in the hole and all that. Welcome everyone to the 1000th episode of we have Ways of making you talk with me. Al Murray And James Holland. If. If you've listened to all thousand, you don't know who we are by now. Something's gone horribly wrong, hasn't it, Jim?

[James Holland]

Yeah, but, you know, I mean, it just goes to show what a completely bottomless pit the Second World War is.

[Al Murray]

Yes. I mean, that, I think, is probably our opening thought and will be our final thought. We've now run longer than the greatest conflict the world has ever known.

[James Holland]

Yes. Rachel has made this point several times,

[Al Murray]

but I think it's very appropriate that we sat here at your festival at Chalk History Festival, because we started in my kitchen, didn't we?

[Tony Pastor]

Yes.

[Al Murray]

So we got a tiny Acorns to Mighty Oaks story here.

[James Holland]

Yes. And in your kitchen we were sort of thinking, well, what are we gonna do? Like every episode we'll have a little artifact and we'll talk about that and then we'll structure it really carefully. And you showed me a little bit of spitfire spelling.

[Al Murray]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[James Holland]

I can't remember what. I had something.

[Al Murray]

You brought a radio.

[James Holland]

Oh, did I?

[Al Murray]

You brought a great big. You know, your funk. Episode one. Jim brought the funk, literally in the form of his as Volks funk. Wasn't it? Your German people's radio.

[James Holland]

But we should talk about how it all came about in the first place,

[Al Murray]

because you tell your story, then I'll tell mine. We'll see how they compare. That's history.

[James Holland]

So. So I was trying to raise money for a film that didn't get made of Pair of Silver Wings, a novel I wrote ages ago. And we had this big, big fundraising sort of junket at the RF club.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And a great friend of mine, Nick, brought Tony Pastor there.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, Tiny Tony.

[James Holland]

Tiny Tony.

[Tony Pastor]

My name's Tony Pastor. I am the co founder of Goal Hanger and I came up with the idea for. We have ways of making you talk.

[Al Murray]

I was asked, got the other day and someone won a load of money on a horse called Two Bob Toney that I. I decided not to bet on because I thought it would be disrespectful to Tony of Gohanger. And actually, on reflection, it would have been the right thing to do and I'd have won a whole heap of cash. Anyway, anyway, so Tony.

[James Holland]

Tony came along to that at the RF club and he had. He. He's half Maltese or quarter Maltese or something. Anyway, he's got some Maltese falcon.

[Tony Pastor]

My grandmother was a Maltese girl in the Second World War and she married a British soldier. My grandfather who was stationed there with the Hampshire Regiment for three years. They got married While he was there. And he then went off for the invasion of Sicily and she moved to the UK and arrived on D Day.

[James Holland]

He had just read my book, Fortress Malta.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And he was really into Second World War, but his background was in sport and he'd set up this company called Goal Hanger Films.

[Al Murray]

Yes.

[James Holland]

With Gary Lineker, to make the kind of bits in between on programs of, you know, big sporting occasions. You know, it's the big match and beforehand they have all the VTs and all the rest of it. They were doing all that and they were doing, you know, bold matches and stuff as well.

[Al Murray]

Because I met Tony two World Cups ago, eight years ago, at a. At a junket where they were launching a bunch of Goal Hangers films about the history of the World Cup. So there was one about the 1970s dictators, South American Dictators, World cup, and then another one about Maradona and the Hand of God.

[James Holland]

Yes.

[Al Murray]

And I. I was comparing that and. And I met Tony at that. So he was sort of not. It was sort of, you know, he's in your orbit. Yeah, on my right. I think he's on the radar rather than the orbit. Okay. We weren't caught in each other's gravitational field.

[James Holland]

Chain ham or Chain ham. Low.

[Al Murray]

Chain home.

[James Holland]

Yeah. Okay. Still forming up. Over.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I could see him coming, but I didn't know how much of him it was.

[James Holland]

Anyway, yeah. So he said, would I be interested. They just started doing a podcast. Football podcast with Gary and Danny Baker.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

He said, would I be interested in doing a Second World War podcast? And I went, yeah, absolutely. And he said, well, thing is, I think you need to do it with someone. Can you think of anyone? I went, yeah, absolutely, because you and I, by that stage were having not infrequent.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

Meetups where we'd chew the cud and talk about the war.

[Tony Pastor]

I didn't know James before that, but I'd read Fortress Malta relatively recently and loved it and wanted to meet him, and this was just a fabulous excuse to do so. I bizarrely knew his agent, who was also Kevin Peterson, the cricketer's agent, and he was able to put me in touch with James. And I went and met him in the RAF Club in London, which was, of course, you know, entirely appropriate place to meet James Holland. It certainly wouldn't have been in the Royal Navy Club, would it? But, yeah, we met that day. He was very busy, and we agreed after a short chat to go and have lunch, which we did. I asked him who he had all his best Conversations with. About the Second World War. And James said to me, you're not going to believe this, but it's actually the comedian Al Murray, AKA the pub landlord. He said, every time he comes to town, we meet up and talk about the Second World War. And I said, let's get out. Let's the three of us meet. Let's see if we can make this happen.

[Al Murray]

We had that great afternoon at Coach and Horses with my dad, who had his hearing aid on for some of it, which was. Yes.

[James Holland]

He'd interject with Bon Mo about the Airborne.

[Al Murray]

That's right, yeah. Yeah. Or say, well, he was useless.

[James Holland]

Well, of course, he made an absolute terrible mistake.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

And so on. And with Dolbers as well. Trevor Dolby was there as well. He popped in for a bit. Yeah.

[James Holland]

Yes.

[Al Murray]

And we drank a lot of Guinness and we. We talked about stuff. And anyway, so then Tony, you. Tony says to you, who would you like to do the podcast with?

[James Holland]

And I said, without Murray? And I was about to have lunch with you.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And we went to that subterranean place near Piccadilly.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. ZL Brasurie. ZL had a cassoulet.

[James Holland]

Yeah, yeah. And is that what you had?

[Al Murray]

Yeah, it was a bit dry. No, I've not had the casselay there since I go for the pomfret normally.

[James Holland]

And I said, mistake thing is being asked to do this World War II podcast. I mean, you know, how do you fancy doing it? And you just went, yeah, yeah.

[Al Murray]

And here we are. Well, although, although, then there was a bit. There was a bit of like. Well, actually, what. Actually we're going to talk about Tony, and this is the amazing thing. And I'm sure many other guys, by the way, listening. Yeah, yeah, listen, by the way, listening, Tony. I'm sure many of the other Goal Hanger hosts will be astounded by this because, you know, now it's like. It's like essentially three death stars worth of podcast used to be like half a death star. Now it's like three or four death stars worth eating entire media ecosystems. In fact, if Gohanger continues expanding at this rate that it's expanding at, it will reach Jupiter by Christmas next year. Yeah, that's. That's the. My estimation.

[James Holland]

Without reaching its culmination point, it's not going to reach.

[Al Murray]

Gohanger will never reach its culmination.

[James Holland]

They're going to get across the Dvina, the Dnieper and all the way to the Volga east of the Urals, and we'll get these. Yeah. Everyone else has failed Goal hanger will get that far without running, without the wheels coming off. Anyway, because we were media types, we all were. Met at Soho House. There was me and you and Nick Hartwell, who'd introduced me to Tony in the first place.

[Al Murray]

But basically Tony used to write a script though, didn't he?

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yeah, he write a script.

[Al Murray]

That's why the other Gohan hosts were not doing this. He had the Hannah Fry doesn't get given like science notes by Tony Pastor. I mean, he'd be mad to do that.

[James Holland]

And you came up with Actung. Actung, yeah.

[Al Murray]

And we have ways of making you talk.

[James Holland]

That was yours because we all said, well, what are we going to call it? And you just went, we got to call it. We have ways of making you talk. Which actually, you know, in retrospect, we should have just called it World War II.

[Al Murray]

No, no, all right. No, we can't rebrand this late in the day. We're not Consignia, we're not the Post Office. Calling ourselves Consignia out of nowhere.

[James Holland]

That didn't go well.

[Al Murray]

That cost them millions of total cock ups. The Post Office, you can't change its name. Your Muppets. You're quite right. The first thing was we would bring stuff to look at.

[James Holland]

Yeah, we had your Spitfire bar. Well, I've got that.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, I had that bit. I've got a bit of Spitfire Spa.

[James Holland]

Yes.

[Al Murray]

Which is those. Which is those concentric square pieces of slices of aluminum. Yes, That's Mitchell's amazing.

[James Holland]

Yes.

[Al Murray]

Design where it's, it's, it's these two.

[James Holland]

It looks like the coolest paperweight you've ever seen.

[Al Murray]

It's it. Because it is the coolest paper.

[James Holland]

Well, I know, but it looks like it. So the reason why we're here is because great friend of the show Adam Shushvorge is here at the Chalk History Festival doing a talk on Taranto as Johnny Wellem, one of the pilots. An E5H.

[Al Murray]

And we covered Taranto November last year in year six.

[James Holland]

In year six, final year of the war.

[Al Murray]

In year six, we got to the second year of the war. That's quite right.

[James Holland]

I've got really good news actually because we were seeing Jonathan Fennell talking the other day and his new new thesis is that the war started in 1931 and ended 1949.

[Tony Pastor]

Yes.

[James Holland]

So we're not even at the end of the war yet.

[Tony Pastor]

Yes.

[Al Murray]

And he's right. 1931 is when the international order collapses.

[James Holland]

Yeah. So we've got a whole raft Japanese

[Al Murray]

going to Manchu Into Manchu.

[James Holland]

Yep.

[Al Murray]

Create Manchuku.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

The international order begins to disintegrate.

[James Holland]

Yes.

[Al Murray]

And. And the events in Europe are. People are taking their lead from what the Japanese are getting away with. It's not Hitler driving things, it's him going, all right, I can do that now, can I?

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

That's where they, you know. And then the Italians in fact ahead of him in terms of. In terms of bending the international order, screwing up the League of Nations. But how does he pick the end date though? Is that partition or something?

[James Holland]

Well, I don't know. He's only written volume one. Hasn't got that far. There's a volume two. So we'll have to wait. Being Jonathan Fennell, it had lots of statistics and lots of morale.

[Al Murray]

Brilliant. He's so good.

[James Holland]

He's so good accounts.

[Al Murray]

It's so perspective. He's so good on that like Ghost in the Machine side of it because you can look at what the factories are churn running out, but it's the. It's getting people to do it.

[James Holland]

The billion letters that were going out like every minute.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. It's amazing.

[James Holland]

From the Feld Post.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. Yeah, it's amazing. Absolutely. But. But Taranto. So we looked at. We looked at the Toronto raid is the most amazing story and to see it depicted like this is particularly as

[James Holland]

we've since a two part series that became four.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah, it was a two part series that became four dot because you've got the. You've. Well, you've got all the. The fact is, is they're very busy in the Mediterranean with these kind of operations anyway.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

You know this when they. They're rounding up what's left. The French Navy.

[James Holland]

Yep.

[Al Murray]

We haven't done Melza Kebir yet, have we?

[James Holland]

No, but we're going to.

[Al Murray]

We're going to. What's so interesting about this though is the Royal Navy knew this harbor because they'd been here in the First World War.

[James Holland]

Yes. It's a great place to visit actually. And you can go. There's a little footbridge that takes you into the Mar Piccolo. You can just see it all. You can see it all has all played out. It's. It's fantastic. And you can walk all along this bit where. Where Johnny Welland went down in eh. 5. You can literally walk along this Cornish. It's all sort of industrialized and now and, and still a naval base, I should hasten to add. And it's just absolutely fantastic. Superb place to visit.

[Al Murray]

I mean the other thing is quite recently we flew in a swordfish didn't we, Jim?

[Tony Pastor]

Yes.

[James Holland]

And we're told that it was easier to go into space with SpaceX than it is to get a seat in a Swordfish.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

We're like, really?

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

All right, I'll take that.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. And we didn't have to pay what you pay for SpaceX.

[James Holland]

No. That is also, I think if I.

[Al Murray]

If I were a billionaire, I'd probably buy the Swordfish. I don't think I'd buy a rocket.

[James Holland]

I'm not just not interested in space at all.

[Al Murray]

No, no. It doesn't happen in the Second World War.

[James Holland]

Why would you want to go to Mars? Why would you want to go to the moon? There's nothing there.

[Al Murray]

Oh, Jim.

[James Holland]

Why would you want to go to the moon when you. When you could, I don't know, go and follow the tracks of the LRDG in the Western desert?

[Al Murray]

It's a compelling argument.

[James Holland]

Well, it is for me.

[Al Murray]

And this was in April. May. April, May of 2019, wasn't it? So it was before. Yes, April, before the great emergency that no one refers to anymore. That has been Memory Hold, AKA the Pandemic. Anyone remember that?

[James Holland]

No, I thought not erased it.

[Al Murray]

It's been completely erased, hasn't it? It's been stuffed in a memory hole.

[James Holland]

But it was going very nicely. And I remember that first summer, I was in July, I was in Berchesgaden, and I remember, on a family.

[Al Murray]

Why go to the moon when you could get a Burgess car?

[James Holland]

That's my case. So I was there. And I remember we were. We were in the Kempinski Hotel, which was built on the site of Goering's house. I remember recording live from there, because in those days, audio was all you needed.

[Al Murray]

Yes. Right.

[Joey McCarthy]

I'm Joey McCarthy. I'm the former producer of we have Ways of making you talk with Al Murray and James Holland. And I was their producer for the first approximately 750 to 800 episodes. When I joined Goal Hanger, I was told by Tony Pastor that I'd work in the glamorous world of sports production. And they said, we've got this little idea of something called a podcast. So we made our way to Chiswick to the original sort of we have Ways headquarters, Al Murray's kitchen. Al Murray greeted us, got us a brew, and it was all very lovely. And then a man came onto Zoom, and it was James Holland, and he had this beautiful azure blue background. It was the sky, it was sort of clear skies of a few beautiful white fluffy clouds. And we all said to him, jim, where are you? And he was holding his iPhone at the time on the Zoom, and he went, I'm at the Eagle's Nest. He was at Hitler's Austrian Alps home, recording the very first podcast there, which kind of was par for the course, for the entire pod podcast and my history with it.

[Al Murray]

Is that hotel as good as it says it is? Like the Luftwaffe. It is as good as it says it. So it's not like the Luffy.

[James Holland]

Yeah. And you know what? One of the good things about it is the lifts work really quickly. Boom.

[Al Murray]

Really?

[James Holland]

Yeah. No waiting.

[Al Murray]

Right.

[James Holland]

Amazing breakfast, amazing views.

[Al Murray]

Why go to the moon?

[James Holland]

Anyway, I'd take the convincing.

[Al Murray]

Summer. So you're in Berchtesgade. This is one of your I was in Berchtesgarden anecdotes. You're in Berchtesgarden and.

[James Holland]

Well, no, it's just. I just remember recording it there, and I just. I remember having to sort of. I remember being. We had this room where it had a little terrace out on the reef, and you could look over to the Untersberg, which was.

[Al Murray]

And the northern lights.

[James Holland]

Yes. And the red was shining down on it. And someone said, you know, this time there'll be a lot of blood. No, that didn't happen. But I remember. I remember for having this sort of do I admit where I am? Moment. And then I thought, no, you know already.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, we're in.

[James Holland]

We're in. Come on, let's just say it.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

Let's spell it out as it is.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah. Well, and then the. And then, of course, the pandemic came, which I think is the. I think the reason there's a podcast industry at all is the. Is the. Is that little COVID 19 virus.

[James Holland]

That is.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. I think someone ate bat soup. And here we are. Right. I mean, people blame a lot of things in this country on bats.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

Right. You can't build that motorway because of the bats. Right. But the pandemic was built by bats.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

Podcasting goal Hanger owes everything to our tiny, tiny velvet, hypersonic friend. And that's when we really sort of dug into this, didn't we? Because there was no.

[James Holland]

Well, we started creating that. We created a little community, didn't we? Called the which. Which. I mean, you're in charge of names. So you came up with the independent company because you're a source of airborne.

[Al Murray]

From Zeno. From Zeno's book, the Cauldron. Yeah, Yeah. I was recording it as an audiobook because I did a lot of that because there was nothing Nothing else to do.

[James Holland]

Well, there's models.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, but. But, you know, you want to do something productive rather than just paint Shermans.

[James Holland]

I think you could argue that's quite productive. Anyway, so you did that and then. And then we built up the independent company and we started doing these live

[Al Murray]

streams every week where we'd get drunk and watch Band of Brothers.

[James Holland]

I remember there was times where, post Pandemic, where I was staying with you, and I remember really, really funny night where we were talking about, you know, our TV experiences and walking and we were drinking spatebagunda.

[Al Murray]

That's right.

[James Holland]

Because every time I used to come stay with you, I'd always bring you German wine because it was funny.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, that's what.

[James Holland]

It's delicious.

[Al Murray]

Yes. There's a story about the bloke in the soup.

[James Holland]

Oh, yes, yes.

[Al Murray]

Epic story. Tell the story, Jim.

[James Holland]

Well, yes, for those of you don't know it. So we were filming at Tom Neil's house, and Tom Neil's a legendary fighter pilot, flew with 249 Squadron in the Battle of Britain and on Malta, he was flying with the Americans. He was seconded to the Americans. So he flew on that strip that was built behind Omaha beach on D plus one. So he did all sorts of amazing things. And he was just such a lovely bloke and he was so funny. And his wife Eileen, they'd met during the war, I think, and she was a section officer, so when he was feeling stern with her, he'd go, oh, we do be quiet, Section Officer. And, you know, I'm calling you Wing Commander, you've got another thing. Anyway. And they would sort of, you know, affectionately bicker.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And anyway, we were filming him, and Eileen at this point was, you know, in her 90s, and her eyesight was going. And she said, well, I've made you all some soup for lunch. And we said, oh, you know, you don't need to do that. But no, no, come and have a soup. Anyway, we had a sound guy. He was quite. He was. He was a bit devoid of charm.

[Al Murray]

Right, okay.

[James Holland]

A bit devoid of charm.

[Joey McCarthy]

Okay.

[James Holland]

And. And I only kept saying, have some soup. And you go, no, sorry, I don't want soup. And she goes, have some soup. And you get, no, no, I really don't want any soup. And everyone else was having soup. And I just really wanted to say to him, just eat the effing soup. And I was telling this story, a bit pissed, it has to be said. I had too much baker kunder.

[Al Murray]

That was a fantastic eat.

[James Holland]

And Then someone made a T shirt, didn't they?

[Al Murray]

That's right.

[James Holland]

Someone made.

[Al Murray]

Did make that. That. That. That T shirt. The community came to us. I mean, that's been. The really, really brilliant thing is it was completely. And I'm not going to use the word organic and I'm not going to word the. Use the word grassroots. I'm not going to say bottom up.

[Tony Pastor]

The community of listeners and now viewers for we have ways of making you talk is our strongest, most impassioned community. And we have built the show around them. And for them, it is the closest thing you could have to a huge collective audience that influences the editorial. They make demands. We try to provide what they want. They come to our live shows. We. We know many of them by their first names. I'm proud to say I've met thousands of them at we have Ways Fest. I try and remember as many names as I can. I remember an awful lot of faces. I shake an awful lot of hands. And they have become friends.

[Al Murray]

This whole thing happened completely spontaneously in the. In the. During the pandemic. And then we ended up with the festival in the September after. After the, like, nine millionth lockdown.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

And there was that protracted period, I think the. That Chris. Second, whichever lockdown. It was over a Christmas where I thought, well, there's never going to be any more. Stand up.

[James Holland]

I remember you saying that to me.

[Al Murray]

Theaters are shut forever. My job's over. I've had a good run. Hooray. You know. Oh, well, this. This will probably do. And we. That first festival, I remember it being not. Not a sort of hysterical occasion.

[James Holland]

No.

[Al Murray]

But there was this extraordinary.

[James Holland]

There was a sense of release, a real crackle.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. Of everyone there. And I remember when we came down the middle of that tent and at that. That sort of excitement and vibe of it and of everyone finally meeting and of everyone. And, you know, I've made. I've made tons of friends out of this as well. It's been the. Really.

[James Holland]

All those names that used to appear on the sidebar of shame. The comments on the live stream. So there was Marion and there was Simon from Red 5. Yeah.

[Al Murray]

A.D. bond. All these people.

[James Holland]

All these people.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And Michael Beveridge. Now, you know, we work alongside at World War II headquarters, the Highland. Paul Davis.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, Paul.

[James Holland]

Ditto with World war II headquarters. So all those names. And suddenly they were all there.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And we were just having the best laugh. Weren't we all getting. Absolutely, yes.

[Al Murray]

I mean, it's tanked up. There's been a great deal of conviviality with this project, it has to be said. Well, let's go to a break and then we'll come back and continue reminiscing about this absurd project we're involved in. We'll see in a tick.

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[Al Murray]

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[Al Murray]

Welcome back to the thousandth episode of

[James Holland]

we have ways to make YouTube 1000

[Al Murray]

a thousand year podcast. That's what this is.

[James Holland]

My Daisy said to me the other day. Do you realize that's 41 days solid on the basis of it being an hour long?

[Al Murray]

Well, some of them are, some of them longer.

[James Holland]

Yeah, well, that's my point. So she averaged it out.

[Al Murray]

We've had some Mission Creep. I mean, this could be the other name for this podcast. Mission Creep. The thing I really love about the festival, which is in September, by the way, in case because one of the remarkable things is I'll speak to Bum. You know, I get this thing where listeners come and say, love the. And it's always lovely when people do that.

[James Holland]

Yes.

[Al Murray]

And also because I listen to a fair few podcasts. I know what. Because you think you know the person because they've been in your ears. You think you've got like an intimate relationship with them. So you have to sort of remember. I always try and remember that I don't really know Dominic Sambrook. Who does, though. He's essentially unknowable. Right, right. And the.

[James Holland]

I do know my brother quite well.

[Al Murray]

Well, yeah, but, you know, but, but, but it's that thing. And so people come up and they go, heard a guy last weekend there was a. Basically the village Fate in Chiswick, where I live, and a guy came up and said, hello, Al, it's Alex. I listen to the podcast all the time. Like, nice to meet you.

[James Holland]

I mean, occasionally I get people coming out and go, hello, Tom, I love your podcast.

[Al Murray]

Oh, well.

[James Holland]

Well, do you.

[Al Murray]

Do you really?

[James Holland]

Great.

[Al Murray]

Not that much. What I was saying is that it's really amazing how the listeners of, you know, at the festival.

[James Holland]

Yes.

[Al Murray]

They take part. We radicalized people. That's what it is. Basically, it's like a history madrasa. We've got Second World War history madrasa. We've got where we were radicalizing people, turning them into historians as people have been getting into print. It's been. That has been absolutely amazing. If nothing else, that's been the. Whatever I might have learned or picked up along the way of experience, that's been the. Really, for me, the thing where you think, well, that's why this is worthwhile. That's why this is cool.

[James Holland]

And that's why Andy Chapman's developed a writing career. Jack Boucher's developed a writing career. Lucy Betteridge, Dyson, yeah. To name but three. Marin Sting her work. Yeah. They. Her and Akak have got that.

[Al Murray]

Which is brilliant.

[James Holland]

Which is fantastic.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

We've had people from all around the world and we get people from Brazil and from the Philippines and from. John Clough comes over from Alaska. George Hode. Got him early.

[Al Murray]

Little George. Yeah.

[James Holland]

Not so little now.

[Al Murray]

No, no, he's nice. Great. Long.

[James Holland]

He's all grown up. George Hood now. Yeah.

[Al Murray]

Used to be. I go to talk about the sewage crisis. Not anymore.

[James Holland]

I'm not moving off of that.

[Al Murray]

That thing of the people have become. Become historians. The Second World War, as a result, is just that. That, you know, if nothing else, that's the that's the thing I high five myself about when I'm at the festival, that we've done that. Really? Because, because that's a completely unexpected byproduct. I didn't, I didn't, didn't for a second think that would happen. Didn't think that could possibly occur. And here it is, you know, it's super cool.

[James Holland]

Yeah, it is. And let's face it, we've had a huge amount of fun. And you think about all the things we've done. We've driven around in T34 tanks. The Swordfish.

[Tony Pastor]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

The Mustang. The Spitfire.

[Al Murray]

Spitfire. Your Spitfire adventure. Yeah, I've flown the. Well, we flew over the Ada, Mona and Saupa, didn't we? Yes, but, but at a height that didn't really convey the drama. And then I did the simulator through the, through the Taz. That was a great trip to Germany, wasn't it?

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

With Joey.

[James Holland]

Fantastic. Joey.

[Joey McCarthy]

I know I've had the experience of traveling across Western Europe with Alan James, two absolute experts in second World War history. One of my least fond memories, however was our Dam Busters series where James, Al and I went to the Ruhr Valley and they both had the brilliant idea. Do you know what would be really good would be if we could actually fly the Dambusters route. So could you book us a light aircraft and a pilot to fly us the route of the Dam Busters over the Ruhr Valley? And I went, yeah, I guess so. So in 24 hours time I had found a lovely small German pilot school and a small tiny Cessna type airplane. Al at the front, James in the back, me to the left of James. I've set up GoPros across there, so I've got a full 360s kind of experience of it. It's brilliant. What I didn't know is that I get very travel sick in light aircraft. So Alan James are having the time of their life recording a podcast in the air. But all of it is useless because in the back there is a young 23 year old producer with his head between his knees vomiting for 45 minutes straight. And that, that's showbiz.

[James Holland]

And then he gave up on us and had to go to the rest of his entities.

[Al Murray]

Joey went on showbiz, didn't he?

[James Holland]

Yeah, yeah, but now he's hanging out with Paul McCartney. I mean he wants to do that when he could be going over the Myrna Dam.

[Al Murray]

I've met Paul McCartney.

[James Holland]

Okay, great. I haven't, but I'm very glad I've been To the Merlin dam.

[Al Murray]

All right. Okay.

[James Holland]

Oh, yeah. You know what? Not the sorper.

[Al Murray]

Oh, my favorite dam's the sorper.

[James Holland]

Oh, yeah.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

No.

[James Holland]

Up for the. For the murder myself. We've also started doing our World War II headquarters, and we've done our walking the ground. We've pretended to hurl grenades at the weapons pit at the edge of Pegasus Bridge.

[Al Murray]

Yes.

[James Holland]

We've had hysterics in the hedgerows as you've been reenacting and doing sound effects of mortars and machine guns.

[Al Murray]

Right. And you got brayed out by a donkey, remember?

[James Holland]

Oh, my God. Yeah. That was when we were looking at where Fali had been taken out.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, that's really funny. Well, so we were in the 101st Airborne sector.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

82nd.

[Al Murray]

82nd. Well, it doesn't really matter, does it? They all end up all over.

[James Holland]

Yeah, but, you know, but everyone goes on about 101st.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, fair enough. Good. Good point, well made. Anyway, and. And we're walking along this road where General Fali is ambushed and killed.

[James Holland]

Yeah, he's killed.

[Al Murray]

What Jim was doing, he was. He was moving like a cat. I'm going to say this. Yeah, Like a cat. Jim's fieldcraft. Let me just say this. Jim's fieldcraft is second to none, right? No one moves the landscape like James Holland. One minute is a hedgerow, the next bit, Jim emerges from it. Anyway.

[James Holland]

Where did you come from, Jim?

[Al Murray]

Yeah, exactly. If you need a cup of tea made on an outcrop of rock, Jim's creeping along like, cat, like. And, you know, if he'd been dressed in olive drab at that precise moment with his face black like that night camo Mohican, a whole lot. He can't more. 101st a second. Anyway, and he's demonstrating how you'd move in this situation. And suddenly a donkey brayed from the exact opposite side of the hedge in his face. And he jumped.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

He jumped out.

[Al Murray]

He jumped out. Your skin.

[James Holland]

It's extraordinary.

[Al Murray]

Really, really funny.

[James Holland]

And then we had a. We had our jeep trip out there.

[Tony Pastor]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

Amazing trip to Arnhem.

[James Holland]

Amazing trip to Arnhem. Several trips to Arnhem.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. But the one for the 80th, when we. When we went. When we went on press side on the Ginkleheath, so we was just, you know, it's a hundred thousand.

[James Holland]

But you remember when we were filming illegally with the police officer.

[Al Murray]

Hey, I like you. Your name is Harland.

[James Holland]

Yes. And then we said, sorry, what are we doing?

[Al Murray]

Illegal.

[James Holland]

Yeah, it is illegal, but we don't care.

[Al Murray]

It is illegal. But we like you guys, so it's okay by us. You must come to Rancom police station. Say hi anytime you like. Okay, thanks, lads. So we were flying with it. This is your no fly zone for your drone because we're on the big. We're on the real dzx. We're on the big drop zone. And, and, and it's one of those places when you get there, you go, of course you drop paratroopers here.

[James Holland]

Of course you would.

[Al Murray]

You know, everyone going, oh, look at the map. Where's the phone? It's like. It's an absolutely completely ideal place to land.

[James Holland]

You don't need to have a second one.

[Al Murray]

No. You don't do a second lift. No, don't do that.

[James Holland]

One's fine.

[Al Murray]

Don't do that. It's a terrible idea.

[James Holland]

The bridge.

[Al Murray]

Scare the bridge.

[Mary Beard and Josephine Quinn]

All of you.

[James Holland]

I've just had to remember, all of

[Al Murray]

you, go to the bridge.

[James Holland]

Just remember something.

[Joey McCarthy]

Go on.

[Al Murray]

What?

[James Holland]

Keith Brigstock, great friend of the show.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

He was over there.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

Recently. Because they go over there every year and they do their kind of whole 30 course shtick.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

With his guns.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And he said, I've been thinking about this. And he said, and I want you to tell our this, basically the job of first Airborne was to take the job, the bridge and hold it for two days. And they did. So from my point of view, they were successful.

[Al Murray]

That is an argument within the army. Yeah. Within the parachute regiment. They go, well, we hold it for longer than. We hold it for four days. They'd held it for nine days. If all the bayonets they dropped that day had gone to the bridge.

[James Holland]

Yes.

[Al Murray]

You leave more than half your force behind. Oh, we can't get into this.

[James Holland]

No, come on, don't start again. Anyway, it was a very moving trip because we did the. First of all, we. We hung out with Jim Clark and his amazing Sherman. Yeah. And. And Kit and co. And. And Andrew drove in.

[Al Murray]

We drove into Germany in a Sherman tank at one point. Hello, we're back.

[James Holland]

Yeah. That was so good, wasn't it?

[Al Murray]

In a great long, great long, olive drab column of.

[James Holland]

Of Sherman tanks, of trucks.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

Of dingoes.

[Al Murray]

That's that dream getting lived right there.

[James Holland]

Yeah. And we did that. And then we. And then we went and saw the football match, which was just incredible.

[Mary Beard and Josephine Quinn]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

Where 19 minutes, 44 seconds, everyone stops and claps for two minutes.

[Al Murray]

The whole thing's in the whole thing. Oh, guys. Very dusty in that football ground.

[James Holland]

And then. And then there was the high pollen count, the service at the cemetery.

[Al Murray]

I think the remembrance there is as

[James Holland]

good as it's ever going to get.

[Al Murray]

People who are serious about remembrance here need to go and have a look at that and have a think about what they're doing there, because there are. It's that business of them honoring our dead, rather. The whole thing of, you know, you've got all those old Paris, you say, I don't get it. We turned up, we smashed it, we smashed that town up. Then we lost him. We bug it off, right? And they love us, right? And, you know, it's an encapsulation of the. Of. Of things. That's it, isn't it? But it's. You talk to all the Dutch people, they go, you tried. You at least, you tried. They tried to liberate us. And it's framed as liberation, not a sort of slow mo. Flags and trumpets, because, you know, they're. They're the people being liberated rather than sacrifice. It's liberation. Sacrifice for liberation. It's just. It's so. It's. It's got. It's such an interesting way of looking at it and the way they keep the memory alive. And I. I was there at it in April. Look for the Sosabosky exhibition that they've just started at Hartenstein. And the fellow who runs the Hartenstein

[James Holland]

being the hotel that was headquarters in the middle of the battle.

[Al Murray]

Amazing airborne museum there. Yeah. And I was the guy who runs the flower child thing.

[James Holland]

Yes.

[Al Murray]

Came and grabbed me at that event.

[James Holland]

Yes.

[Al Murray]

So what they do every year, and they've been doing it since 1945, 46 is every year school children have a grave in the. In the graveyard. And, you know, there's the photos of them right after the war with. With the white wooden crosses putting flowers on the things. And they've handed that on every year. Every year they've had it on for class, to class. It's absolutely amazing.

[James Holland]

It is absolutely amazing. It's the most moving thing.

[Al Murray]

And. And. And the guy who runs this came and grabbed me and said, oh, I saw your filming up from Arnhem from last year. And you. You know. And he gave me a pin. He gave me the two. The 80th anniversary flower kids pin as a. As a memento to say thank you for. For the way we'd filmed it and covered it.

[James Holland]

That's amazing.

[Al Murray]

You want to say thank you to them for. For doing it because it's. It's truly extraordinary. And there is the sort of. The sort of carnival of the great convoy of jeeps.

[James Holland]

Oh, that was fun, wasn't it?

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Tony's caught fire, didn't it?

[Tony Pastor]

One day in Arnhem, I had the most realistic Second World War reconstruction moment ever. I'd jumped on a Jeep owned by a Dutchman. We were taking part in a thing which was called the Race for the Bridge. Hundreds of military vehicles racing from Oosterbeek through to. Through to Arnhem itself. And our jeep caught on fire. I literally dived out of the Jeep before it stopped onto the side of the road with flames gushing out of the front of the. Of the vehicle. It was genuinely terrifying. And then, would you believe it, a British ambulance from the Second World War pulled up from out of the Cavalcade and I was able to jump on the ambulance, clamber onto its roof and continue the journey. I mean, it was about as realistic as anything you'd ever see.

[Al Murray]

Tony. Tony Gohanger and was in the jeep behind us that caught fire.

[James Holland]

Well, that's quite good. It's not quite as good as my Spitfire, but it's pretty good.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We love to talk about your Spitfire.

[James Holland]

Can we talk about my Spitfire now? I think so.

[Al Murray]

We went flying Spitfires May 24th.

[James Holland]

Yeah. The lovely. The lovely Richard Grace.

[Al Murray]

The late Richard Grace, who's a fantastic fellow. A lovely, lovely bloke.

[James Holland]

Well, the gray Spitfire is one of the most original Spitfires.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

Still flying.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

Did incredible things.

[Al Murray]

A couple years before that, he took us up in the Mustang, didn't he?

[James Holland]

Yeah. And Daisy.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, we. And we. Where we chased trains.

[James Holland]

Yes.

[Al Murray]

I don't know if we're allowed. We're allowed to talk about that.

[James Holland]

Yeah, we're allowed to talk about that.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. We chased the London Northwest Line.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

Came down onto the trains of the Mustang.

[James Holland]

We pretended we were Don Gentile.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. Going. I mean, did you do that? Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course you did go. Right. Anyway, so we. We went back in 20. 20, 24. And the idea we were going to get with Ben Wilborn. That's right. The idea is we're going to go up the Spitfire and be shown how you do aerial combat by managing the energy in the aircraft. So never ever throttling back. So, like, you do a barrel roll to slow the pain down. If you're trying to. Trying to get in behind something, you do a barrel to slow the plane down without coming off the throttle because you want to leave. You don't want to do that because the engine is. They've got to Rev back up again. All this sort of stuff, how you manage the energy and all that, blah, blah, blah. So I went out and had this amazing flight, and he stuck out on the wingtip. We turned around and we barrel rolls and all this perfect blue skylight today. And I came back down and then it was your go. And then Jim didn't come back.

[James Holland]

Well, I'd been having a lovely time too, because he said, okay, you've now got control. And there was this big fluffy bit of bank of cumulus, and I was flying around it and I just flown around this whole thing and just thinking, oh, wow, this is absolutely amazing. And he goes, all right, now I'll take back control and we'll do a few maneuvers. And then suddenly, mayday, mayday. Thinking, ah, this isn't great. No, Unfortunately, I'd been listening to him when he did the safety brief in a way that I kind of typically don't. But on this occasion, for some reason, some sixth sense told me I needed

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

to listen to this.

[James Holland]

So he asked me to pull back the canopy. So I did, but it kept getting stuck on my helmet because obviously the canopy is slightly domed.

[Al Murray]

And Spitfires are made for people of

[James Holland]

5 foot 5 with leather skull caps. Yeah, I had this great big sort of stupid dome thing. So I pulled by the canopy and it was like, dunk, dunk. And you're in a Sutton harness where you can't really kind of move. That's the whole point.

[Al Murray]

And it's not a glider, a Spitfire, is it?

[James Holland]

So I was sort of thinking, what do we do? And. And his radio still works. So he said, I'm going to try and get down into a field. I was like, okay. Anyway, Venture. I managed to get there enough to get the canopy back, you know, and I remembered to put the little. I remember this very clearly, putting the little hat, the little clip to keep the canopy so it didn't slide forward again. By the time I sort of faffed around that, we were hurtling towards this field, which was a little sort of Cessna strip.

[Al Murray]

Yep.

[James Holland]

You know, engine's still not working and coming in way too fast. And the grass strip for the Cessnas was designed for Cessnas. It wasn't designed for spitfuzz. Coming in at speed. No, not wasn't designed for Spitfires. Full stop. And at the far end of this field was kind of rougher grass and then a big long hedge. And I just, oh, my God. You know, we're going to go into this if we're not careful. I was actually pretty calm I've got to say, because you just sort of think, I'm sure it'll be okay. Or, you know, I don't know what I was thinking really, but I was all right. And then he was trying to avoid the hedge, so he was turning to starboard to the right and it was quite soft, it was May. And the right hand side of the starboard undercarriage dug in the wheel and suddenly we were like. And came down again and Mark just said, oh shit, I heard him say that and thinking we were gonna go straight over. And then we sat down and it was like sort of moments calm. And I say to absolute idiot said, so should I get out now? And he went, yes. So I got out and you know, just slid down the side of the, of the plane to, to the ground and sort of walked off at pace.

[Al Murray]

Well, the thing is, if anyone's listening to this podcast long enough, you're aware that James Holland, someone whose toast lands butter side up. So when, when we were told, when we were told, oh, they put down a field somewhere, oh, he's all right, he's fine, nothing's happened to James, he'll be all right. And he turns up high as a kite. It's like so ecstatic with it, with the, with a big piece of propeller that.

[James Holland]

Yeah, never letting go, never letting go.

[Al Murray]

And I've got a photograph of you like absolutely buzzing. And you said, it's actually really quite exciting.

[James Holland]

It was absolutely fantastic, genuinely fantastic. The worst bit was then having to try and tell Rachel because Rachel. I had lots of messages from Rachel going, where are you? Where are you, Jim, Why haven't you run me? Where are you? And I was like, how do. I can't sugarcoat this. I remember saying, I don't want you to worry, but just had this prank in this Spitfire.

[Tony Pastor]

James Holland is one of my closest friends and the best people on the planet. But he does have occasional ideas that are so insane you should stop before you go through them. The Lloyd Carrier is one of those. I remember we, we were approached by someone who'd found the remnants of a Lloyd Carrier in an old barn. Basically its derivation was discovered in Normandy on a farm obviously abandoned post the post the conflict there in 44. And it was in a terrible state. I remember posting a picture of it in its rusted, broken down state and people were shocked. We bought it, including me. So we just decided it would be a lovely project. Why not do it up over a period of time? It gives us great content and it's a lovely thing to have all of which is true, however, as my wife, who at that time when Golanga was. Was a micro business, used to do the accounts. She used to say to me, who on earth is Lloyd? We're paying him a fortune. I said, I'm afraid to tell you it's a Lloyd carrier. Brilliant. If you need a machine gun carrier in southwest London, less ideal when you've got a dwindling bank account and it's costing you tens of thousands of pound. However, as I like to point out, no other media company in this country owns a Second World War vintage vehicle. If one of our competitors, the Guardian, the Times Global Media, ever decides to go to war with us, they will not have a machine gun carrier and we do.

[Al Murray]

It was one of those things where you think, well, that wouldn't have happened were it not for this podcast.

[James Holland]

No.

[Al Murray]

So, I mean, I think that's.

[James Holland]

I feel very fortunate.

[Al Murray]

I think all of you listening for these thousand episodes, James, I'd like to thank you for putting up with me going, go on, tell me more about that. And you manfully telling me more about it.

[James Holland]

I'd like to thank you for putting up. Putting up with me and for all the amazingly brilliant times we've had. Yeah, it's been incredible hilarity we've had. Yeah. The moving bits as well, let's not forget those. The, the, the journey of discovery. Without wanting to sound like a complete cliche, but I am.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

Because actually my knowledge of the Second World War has risen exponentially and I know yours has too, over this. And, and what I've discovered is that you learn a hell of a lot more when you're discussing it with a mate.

[Tony Pastor]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

You know, that is the truth of it. And when you can talk about it like two grown ups.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

In a room, really chew the cud and you can, you can actually get to the bottom of what happened on Operation Barbarossa.

[Al Murray]

And what's really good though, is we aren't the tree falling in the forest that no one hears. Right. Those conversations would be happening anyway, but no one would have heard them.

[Tony Pastor]

Yes.

[Al Murray]

What I'm saying, but because of the podcast, because of the regular listeners, because the independent company, because of the people who've subscribed to the Patreon, because of the people on the Apple channel, because of the people who just listen casually on Spotify or wherever you get your

[James Holland]

podcasts, and the people who casually just send me emails with their great uncle's photos.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. It's just incredible.

[James Holland]

And letters.

[Al Murray]

It's just incredible.

[James Holland]

What we should say is a huge thank you to Tony. Yeah, Tiny Tony, everyone at Gull Hanger, to all the gang, but obviously especially to J.R. and to Joey.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Thanks, everyone, for listening. Thanks. For those of you who are watching, thanks to the crowd we've gathered here at Chalk History Festival. We'll see you at we have Ways fest in September, won't we? Yes. Good. Brilliant.

[James Holland]

There we go.

[Al Murray]

Auf Wiedersehen, mein Lieblingen.

[Mary Beard and Josephine Quinn]

I'm Mary Beard. And I'm Josephine Quinn. At the Rest Is Fest this September, we're putting on a show that can only be described as an odd, iconoclastic romp through the ancient world. We're talking about leaders behaving badly, emperors putting their horses in charge, cities built by asylum seekers and empires getting their comeuppance. There will be some proper myth busting, but we'll also be asking why these myths matter even when we know they're wrong. So if you love your ancient history and you're free on September 6th, get your ticket now and join us at London Southbank Centre. Tickets are on sale now. Just visit southbankcentre.co.uk that's southbankcentre.co.uk.com.