Atlantic Crossings, French Morale, & American Inaugurations

Summary

Podcast Summary: WW2 Pod: We Have Ways of Making You Talk — "Atlantic Crossings, French Morale, & American Inaugurations"
Date: January 20, 2026
Hosts: Al Murray (comedian) & James Holland (historian)

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on significant events that happened on January 20th during the World War II era, weaving together vivid personal anecdotes, historical analysis, and trademark humorous banter. Covering topics from Atlantic crossings and life aboard wartime liners, to the chilling bureaucratic evil of the Wannsee Conference and the political weight of FDR’s multiple inaugurations, Al and James deliver history with both gravity and wit. The show alternates between lively storytelling—such as James’s personal experience crossing the Atlantic—and deep dives into crucial but sometimes overlooked WWII events.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. James Holland’s Transatlantic Crossing Experience

• James recently crossed the Atlantic by liner, paralleling wartime voyages.
• Personal memories: traversing the site of the Bismarck sinking, exploring the ship’s bridge, and observing naval traditions.
• The Queen Mary’s unique features designed for Atlantic voyages; discussion about why ships and planes use specific interior colors to keep crews alert.
• Quote:
  • "It’s the world’s only ocean going liner... specifically designed to cross the Atlantic. Everything about it is designed for that crossing in rough seas." — James Holland [04:36]
  • "The captain is part of the ship."— James recalls shipboard lore [04:22]

2. Atlantic Warfare & Ship Design

• Discussion of sea conditions: James recounts rough Force 10 weather and praises the Queen Mary’s stability compared to cruise ships.
• Ship engineering anecdotes: No rudder on the Queen Mary, steering solely with propellers.
• Light-hearted speculation on whether this design was to thwart attacks (referencing swordfish torpedo bombers).

3. Historical Events by January 20th—A Year-by-Year Exploration

a. 1939: Hjalmar Schacht Leaves the Reichsbank

• Debate about Schacht’s dismissal versus resignation.
• Schacht’s conflict with Nazi ideology, attempts at moderating policy, and eventual replacement by loyalist Funk.
• Schacht’s survival, implication in the July plot, and post-dismissal status.
• Quote:
  • "It's that issue of people who thought... maybe we can control them, maybe we can get them to... be under control. And he’s one of those people who basically discovers you can’t." — Al Murray [08:43]

b. 1940: The Infamous Cold Winter

• Both discuss how WWII winters, notably in 1940, demoralized French and British troops.
• Personal account: Al reads from his grandfather's letters about the bitter cold, constant efforts to keep warm, and its impact on morale and sickness rates.
• The change from WWI’s seasonal campaigning to WWII’s relentless operations due to mechanization.

c. 1941: FDR’s Historic 3rd Inauguration

• Examination of Roosevelt’s decision to run again, breaking tradition due to the looming war.
• Political importance of the speech and the shift in inauguration dates from March to January.
• Lend-Lease origins: Explained with FDR’s famous “neighbour’s house on fire” analogy.
• Introduction of Four Freedoms—core ideological underpinnings for postwar world.
• Analysis of FDR’s complex, often inscrutable leadership and bipartisan governance.
• Quote:
  • “We want to create a better world... a world where every individual is free from the fear of want, you know, of hunger... these are the Four Freedoms.” — James Holland [17:41]

d. 1942: Wannsee Conference & The Holocaust

• Delayed by Pearl Harbor, the Wannsee Conference set administrative plans for the Holocaust.
• Discussion focuses on the “banality of evil”—the chilling administrative language, not the decision to kill but how to do it.
• Connection to Himmler’s observations in the East and the transition to industrialized murder.
• Quote:
  • "It’s just all very calm. It’s like you’re just doing an engineering project. They're just talking about how they're going to eliminate millions of people. And it’s revolting." — James Holland [25:23]
  • “It’s not the what or the why, it’s the how, isn’t it?” — Al Murray [25:27]

e. 1943: Battle off Zuwarah (Mediterranean Naval Action)

• British destroyers Kelvin and Javelin sink a flotilla of Italian minesweepers near Tripoli.
• Highlights Royal Navy superiority in the Mediterranean and Allied naval strategy.
• The ability of destroyers to engage from ranges where their opponents cannot reply.
• Quote:
  • "The Axis just don’t have any answer to this. ...once they go, they go. They’ve gone by the summer of 1943." — James Holland [28:22]

f. 1944: Battle of the Rapido

• Brief mention—James reiterates his critical view of the operation’s planning and execution.
• Discussion of missed tactical opportunities and lessons in combined arms doctrine.

g. 1945: FDR’s 4th Inauguration

• Roosevelt, gravely ill, runs again to "see it out" as the war nears its end.
• His selection of Truman as VP hailed as a masterstroke for postwar recovery and policy.
• The external image and stability offered by keeping the war leader in place, despite personal health.
• Quote:
  • "The last big mistake he makes is going to Yalta... you look at the last photo of him, he looks nearly 80. He’s actually 63." — James Holland [32:20]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Titanic’s my tanic. I mean, whatever. But getting to the mid-Atlantic meeting point, that was really special... we crossed over the spot of the Bismarck pretty much.” — James Holland [01:20]
• "The captain is part of the ship." — James Holland [04:22]
• "It's the color that is most likely to keep you alert." — Ship captain, relayed by James Holland [03:02]
• "Morale just goes. And it hasn’t really recovered in May and that’s part of the problem." — James Holland on French Army, 1940 [13:09]
• "It’s a day of infamy, you know, it just is, isn’t it?" — James Holland on the Wannsee Conference [26:21]
• "You can, if you can see them, you can shell them. You can stand off, they can’t do anything about you." — Al Murray on Royal Navy power [29:03]
• "He wants to see it out. He knows he’s so close and he just feels he’s the man for steering it in the final bit. And he’s right." — James Holland on FDR’s fourth term [31:22]
• "Good old school war waffle. I liked it. Proper old school war waffle." — James Holland / Al Murray closing out [35:41]

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• [01:05]–[06:20]: James’s Atlantic crossing, ship anecdotes, naval design, and Bismarck site.
• [07:09]–[11:50]: Jan 20th through the years begins—Schacht, Nazi economics, and regime changes.
• [11:50]–[15:00]: The bitter winter of 1940 and its impact on morale, with personal letters.
• [15:04]–[20:39]: FDR’s third inauguration, Lend-Lease, Four Freedoms, and political craftsmanship.
• [22:01]–[26:21]: The Wannsee Conference, bureaucracy of genocide, and banality of evil.
• [27:25]–[29:27]: Battle off Zuwarah and Royal Navy tactics.
• [29:27]–[33:46]: Battle of the Rapido & FDR’s fourth inauguration, Truman’s significance.
• [35:41]: Humorous wrap-up, preview of upcoming podcast topics and shows.

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Tone and Style

• Conversational, witty, and irreverent where suitable, but sober when addressing serious events (e.g., the Holocaust, major wartime suffering).
• Blends firsthand storytelling, scholarly insight, and British comedic asides.
• Clear appreciation for untold stories and overlooked details.

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For the Listener

This episode is a dynamic January 20th time machine through WWII history, balancing James’s historian’s expertise and Al’s comedic curiosity. Whether recounting seasick-free crossings or dissecting the darkest days of the Nazi regime, the hosts illuminate how personal experiences, weather, political maneuverings, and pure evil shaped the course and memory of WWII. Don’t miss the four freedoms chat or the peek into the bureaucratic machinery of Wannsee—perfect both for newcomers and existing fans hungry for detailed, engaging war history.

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Up Next:

• Upcoming deep-dive on the 4th Fighter Group and Don Blakeslee’s career
• Preparations for “We Have Ways Fest 6” and more Patreon-exclusive content

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Listen for more war waffle, live event teasers, and the latest in WWII podcasting!

Transcript

[Al Murray]

Thank you for listening to. We have ways of making you talk. Sign up to our Patreon to receive bonus content, live streams and our weekly newsletter with money off books and museum visits as well. Plus early access to all live show tickets. That's patreon.com wehaveways.

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[Al Murray]

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[James Holland]

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[Al Murray]

Welcome to. We have ways of making you talk with me, Al Murray and James Holland, or should I say Admiral Holland, fresh from your Atlantic adventure. I mean you've, you've done it now Jim. You've done Atlantic passage.

[James Holland]

Well, there was some really, really sizzling moments. Everyone was, everyone as you can imagine was getting incredibly excited about the Titanic. But I'm kind of. Titanic's my tanic. I mean whatever. But getting to the mid atlant, mid ocean meeting point, that was really very special because there you are, you're in the middle of the Atlantic. You know, this is the kind of, you know, this is the air gap that was closed later on in the war and you know, this is it. And, and we crossed over the spot of the Bismarck pretty much, you know, give a mile or two.

[Al Murray]

Really?

[James Holland]

Oh wow.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

350 miles off the coast of Brest. That's much more exciting than the Titanic.

[Al Murray]

That's super cool.

[James Holland]

And I'll tell you what, it wasn't very cold but.

[Al Murray]

Did the captain say that we're going over the side of the Bismarck here? No, no, no.

[James Holland]

I worked it out and then I. It was you. Yeah, I worked it out. No one else was interested in that. Everyone was very interested in the Titanic and going under a bridge at New York where there was only a meter and a half's clearance. Yeah, we gotta go and see that. We've got to go and see that. We've got ages before that happens. By the time we've kind of sort of finished our first old fashioned been and gone.

[Al Murray]

It's quite funny. You want to be forward of the chimney when it go over the funnel when it goes under that bridge.

[James Holland]

Right forward. Yes.

[Al Murray]

Rather than admiring it from, from aft.

[James Holland]

Yes, exactly. You don't want to be. You don't want to be aft. You don't want to be below decks in the wardrobe. Anyway, we did go up to the bridge. We had a tour of the bridge, which is quite exciting. And all of it was painted in that same kind of sort of greeny turquoise that you get on the inside of Spitfires and warbirds.

[Al Murray]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[James Holland]

And the captain said, why do you. Why do you think that it's all painted in this. This color? Everyone's like, I have absolutely no idea. Sort of, you know, to match the sea. I don't know, you know, whatever. He said. No, he said it's the color that is most likely to keep you alert.

[Al Murray]

Really. Apparently, that sounds like something someone came up with in the 1920s and has not actually been.

[James Holland]

No one's able to change it. But I wonder whether that was why it's in a Spitfire. Why is cockpit green? Why is it that green?

[Al Murray]

I don't know. I think it comes from the French, the cockpit green. And I think it's just. It's just one of those colors. Right. And that sounds like a rationalizer, the rationalization after the event. It's going to keep you completely as alert as possible, that green. But doesn't will it, does it? Not sure. You know what I mean?

[James Holland]

I don't know. Anyway, the other thing he had, which was really cool was he had the telescope. He had the telescope that was originally given to the Queen Elizabeth. Queen Elizabeth was taking American troops back and forth across the Atlantic. And anyway, they were leaving the Clyde, and suddenly they got a whole load of warnings of U boats and stuff. So they handled the. They. He said, okay, well, keep a really good luck. He said, take this different route, you know, dodge the U boats. But here's this telescope and make sure you use it. And the. And the. Now from ever since then, the lead ship in the Cunard fleet has this telescope.

[Al Murray]

Oh, wow.

[James Holland]

And before they disembark the captain, there's a little dent just halfway down it, and the captain taps the dent and then puts it back.

[Al Murray]

Wonderful.

[James Holland]

I mean, isn't that brilliant? We were saying how many people are on board, and he said, there are, you know, whatever it was, but, you know, 4,100 souls. He said, that is every single person and dog in kennels. But not the captain, because the captain is part of the ship.

[Al Murray]

Oh, I love it. How quickly does the Queen Mary go? How fast does she go? How many knots are you doing?

[James Holland]

Most of the time it was going about between 22 and 24 knots.

[Al Murray]

Right. I'm okay.

[James Holland]

It's the world's only ocean going liner. So it is specifically designed to cross the Atlantic. Everything about it is designed for that crossing in rough seas across the Atlantic, you know, 365 days a year. We were in a force 10 at one point and he said, you'd have noticed it, didn't you? And we all went, yeah. But he said, but did anyone fall over? Did anyone feel seasick? And we went, no. He goes, there you go, wow. If you've been on a, on a cruise ship, he said, you trust me, you'd have known about it.

[Al Murray]

Right. Okay, that's interesting. That's really interesting.

[James Holland]

Wow. And it was pretty smooth. And you'd look around and you'd see this huge crash. The other thing is, is, is we had the, you know, we had one of those cabins with a, with a little balcony and stuff. And for other night actually we had the, the door open so you could, and you could just hear the ship crashing through the waves all the time, just plowing through them. It was a bit like that sort of rolling crash you get of, of waves on a beach, on a shoreline just all the time.

[Al Murray]

Wow.

[James Holland]

There was little sort of galleyways where you could go quite low decks and there were sort of little seats and you know, and you could look out to sea and you're. We, you know, the sea is just there and it's sort of really, you know, rolling around all over the place and you're just thinking, crikey, vowel cast Corvette on one of, on this.

[Al Murray]

Renowned for its poor handling. Anyway.

[James Holland]

Doesn'T have a rudder. The Queen Mary either. What doesn't have a rudder?

[Al Murray]

Steers with the screws. Right.

[James Holland]

Steers of its propellers.

[Al Murray]

Wow. Amazing. That's interesting.

[James Holland]

It was quite the experience, I don't mind telling you.

[Al Murray]

I suppose if you haven't got a rudder, then a swordfish can't strike it and make you go around in circles. So they've thought of everything.

[James Holland]

Do you think that's, do you think that's why they do it that way? We have learned our lesson.

[Al Murray]

I have to say. Reaction to our swordfish stuff that, that's been because obviously we, we're recording this. A couple of weeks, fortnight before Christmas we're recording this and this will be going out once Christmas is long gone and a distant memory of heartburn and family aggravation and England won by the Ashes. Yeah, yeah, of course, yeah. Thank you for your reaction to our swordfish stuff. We, we enjoyed it enormously. And you'd still think of Taranto as, you know, why aren't. Why aren't there 10 films about Toronto? Why? You know what I mean, Jim?

[James Holland]

Yeah, Toronto was amazing.

[Al Murray]

That was.

[James Holland]

That was really. But I'm still thinking about that poor, poor sod in his open cockpit flying in the Arctic. I honestly, I literally just can't get over that.

[Al Murray]

No, it's truly horrendous, isn't it?

[James Holland]

And it's amazing that after kind of all these years studying the Second World War, I had no idea about that at all. You know, it's a genuinely new information about which I knew nothing.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, it's incredible, isn't it? There's always something lurking, isn't there? Right, so what we thought we'd do, this is coming out on the 20th of January, so we thought we'd look at the 20th of January through the war years. So obviously we have to bend. 1939, strictly speaking. So on the 20th of January 1939, Hitler dismisses Hjalmar Schacht as President of the Reichsbank.

[James Holland]

Do you know? He doesn't. He resigns. He resigns, yeah.

[Al Murray]

I mean, forces him out, basically, doesn't he?

[James Holland]

He's forced out, but. But he isn't actually dismissed. I think Schacht is a really, really interesting character and I think it's amazing that he survives as long as he does, because he's a Democrat.

[Al Murray]

He's sort of Mark Carney, isn't he?

[James Holland]

Yeah, he is, yeah.

[Al Murray]

Politician, financier, economist, and he's thinking, well, if this will work for Germany, this is. These are the circumstances under which we should do it, rather than, I have to follow the Nazi program. He's saying. He's seeing what Hitler's regeneration of the plans for regeneration, the German economy might do, and he's thinking, how can we make this work and how can we temper it and all that sort of stuff, rather than being fully paid up? And, of course, I mean, this is the thing that when it comes to Nuremberg, of course he is spared, isn't he? He spared the hangman's noose.

[James Holland]

He gets implicated in the plot, although actually he stays on as a sort of minister without portfolio. You know, he's paid. He gets a salary even after he's kicked out of or dismissed or resigned or whatever you want to call it. So he does stay on as an employee of the Nazi government, amazingly. But then he gets implicated in the July plot and sent to Ravensbruck. I think, anyway, he's one of the VIP prominent who ends up in South Tyrol.

[Al Murray]

But it's interesting though, isn't it? Because before the war is very unhappy about things like Kristallnacht and is trying to sort of Trying to push back where he can against narcissistic excesses. And it's that problem. He's, you know, it's that issue of people who thought. People who thought, well, all right, now they're in. Maybe we can control them, maybe we can get them to. Maybe we can bend them in our direction, keep them under control, that sort of thing. And he's one of those people who basically discovers that you can't. There is no tempering it. There is no sort of center right way of like bringing in the Nazis and running them responsibly, constraining them. The fact that he's replaced with Funk, you know, who's a journalist and a propagandist, not an economist. It's that thing of getting your people in to do the. To do the job, getting your. Your guys who you trust who are ideologically sound, who are just going to do as you're told to run things rather than going, hang on a minute, autarky isn't going to work out for us. Do you mind behaving, you know, finding a different solution to what you regard as a Jewish problem. Thank you very much. And the sort of stuff that Schacht was doing. And you get funked. And Funk's just fully paid up, isn't he? He's gonna. He's gonna do whatever the Fuhrer wants as well as. As well as his own sort of personal empire building.

[James Holland]

Yeah. And he's very happy to kind of help General Georg Thomas develop the hunger plan to starve millions of people in the Soviet Union.

[Al Murray]

It's no skin off his nose, basically. But this is part of the process that the Nazis go through, isn't it? Gradually, one by one, people who are not on board completely are given a flick, aren't they?

[James Holland]

They are, but I. But I think it is amazing that Hal actually does. He does survive. You know, that's a. That's the thing. His real name is Horace. Didn't know that.

[Al Murray]

I didn't know that. Horace.

[James Holland]

Funny.

[Al Murray]

It's funny.

[James Holland]

And his second name is something like Sinjin or something. I mean, I really couldn't be more English.

[Al Murray]

I think it's Greeley.

[James Holland]

Okay. Yeah. Horace Greeley.

[Al Murray]

That's a different person, isn't it? Horace. Horace Greeley. Shacked. It's a different person. That's an American. That could be An American industrialist, couldn't it? HG Shaft, who makes tractors. Been another world.

[James Holland]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Dozers. Bigger the better.

[Al Murray]

As I say, January 20, 1940, though now we're actually into the war, so we can ease into this properly. Now, James, over the years, I mean, it's. It's not a running joke. It's. It's more. It's more an eternal truth.

[James Holland]

It's more an observation.

[Al Murray]

An observation, yes, exactly. It's an eternal truth. It's a thing that only a fool would deny, is that the winters of the Second World War, particularly harsh, right.

[James Holland]

Throughout the whole 1940s and 1947 was even worse.

[Al Murray]

Well, it's the worst, yeah. Is there a winter that isn't harsh during the Second World War? Jim, could you pick one? 1949, 41, 1942. They're all half 43.

[James Holland]

I mean, try talking to those. Those grunts in their foxholes in. In, you know, in the Old End Forest, 1944. I mean, try talking to those who are trying to burst through the Bernhard line. I mean, horrendous.

[Al Murray]

But in 1940, London recorded a temperature of minus 11, its coldest, 1881. So there we are.

[James Holland]

Ridiculous.

[Al Murray]

That is ridiculous.

[James Holland]

Even worse in Rochefort, Belgium, minus 30.

[Al Murray]

I mean, one of the things about the winters, of course, the Second World War, really, because the First World War has campaigning seasons actually, doesn't it? It kind of grinds to a halt once you're into the winter properly, doesn't it? The offensives. The offensives sort of wind down. But in the Second World War, the campaigning seasons run through, don't they? There isn't the traditional rhythm that there ought to be, you know, men going home to do the harvest, those sort of old. Old constraints. And it's mechanization, it's industrialization. It's also. I think it's also this whole idea that you've got to keep going, haven't you? That if you let it stop, it'll go into a halt. Both sides are committed to the destruction of the other. It's certainly late later in the war, aren't they? They're remorselessly committed to the destruction of the other. Not like a frozen conflict like you might see now, where things do slow down in the winter.

[James Holland]

What's fascinating is this is January 1940, and it has a catastrophic effect on the morale of the French and British troops on the Western Front. Don't you remember the French army of its millions? You know, they're all reservists, so they have these different tiers of reserve of being reserve troops. They've all been levied and conscripted. You know, they're all sent off to the, you know, the Saar or wherever and the Maginot Line and they're all along the dug in along the French Belgian border. Then they have this terrible winter. Nothing happens. And all they're doing is making sort of, you know, pillboxes and digging foxholes and nothing's happening. And it's the Boer War and it's freaking freezing and they're all getting flu and pneumonia and trench foot and all the rest of it and morale just goes. And it hasn't really recovered in May and that's sort of part of the problem.

[Al Murray]

My grandfather's letters in January 1940 are all about. All about sleeping on the stove. They're about how bitterly cold it is. Thank you for sending me that scarf. The weather is intolerable. It's so bitterly cold. Since I wrote to you last, we have had a fall of snow and it's much warmer though still freezing. I'm quite warm in my room over the forge last night and lay in bed this morning feeling comfortable. So basically it's all about keeping warm. The work at the forge is an endless amusement to the men and they try their French and all comers and warm themselves at the fire. It just. Everyone is obsessed with staying warm. Three nights ago we reckon the thermometer registered -1 Fahrenheit or 35 of frost. Rather excessive. We are in for a very low temperature. It gets a flu as well. In all the mid. This is what you get is the cold weather. It crushes morale. You get sickness going up because when morale's bad, people tend to report sick rather than sweat it out. And you're right, it makes things really very, very miserable on that Western front while they're sitskriging and I think this is the winter that in the Second World War, that's the exception, perhaps the rule. We were talking about all the other winters. The campaigning season rolls on, certainly after Barbarossa.

[James Holland]

But yeah, they just sat on their ass. Aren't they feeling miserable?

[Al Murray]

They sat on their ass. No one knows what's going to happen next. You know, they haven't got the right kit. It's a miserable business being in the BF at this point. You know, the weather getting a vote there and its vote affects morale as much as anything else. Then the following January 1941. Good news for fans of FDR. He has his historic third inauguration ceremony.

[James Holland]

Big moment. This actually, this is a really, really big moment.

[Al Murray]

Well, it's an important moment, isn't it? Because he's back in, right?

[James Holland]

Yeah, it's absolutely vital.

[Al Murray]

Why did he run a third time? Why did he want to break precedent?

[James Holland]

Because he knew war was coming and I think he felt he was the only. That he was the right man to lead America into the war. And he was, frankly. It's also interesting that this is only the second time it's January because. Because when he first comes into power and becomes president in 1933, the inauguration is in March, and that was a traditional inauguration date. And so he then breaks precedent in 1940, 37, moving it to January.

[Al Murray]

The inauguration is supposed to give you time. March was to give you time to get from wherever you were, wasn't it, to Washington, if you were from whichever other state you had time to get your affairs in order and make your way to Washington. So he's, he's broken that in December.

[James Holland]

1914, this is when Churchill writes to him and says, you know, the time is going to come where we're going to run out of money. And, you know, we are holding together the free world at the moment. We're facing it all and we're, you know, we don't shirk from that, but, you know, we are literally running out of cash. And, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm assuming that, that you, as the United States are not going to sort of cut the tap off because we can't quite pay you the cash you need. And this comes at a moment where Roosevelt's already appreciated that the British are going to run out of money and has been thinking about how to get round this. So he started to formulate this idea, which is going to be lend lease. But he has a press conference in the middle of December 1940, and he goes, well, I've just been thinking, you know, we need to help the Brits. And, you know, it's a bit like your house, your neighbor's house is on fire. And he says, can I borrow your hose? And you say, yeah, of course you can. And, you know, you can always give the hose back at the end of it and if it's been damaged, then, you know, we'll sort something out a bit later. But, but of course you're going to hand him the hose. Then he does his big speech after Christmas. He does a fireside chat where he talks about sort of bigger themes and then he does his State of the Nation address at the beginning of January 1941. Where he talks about the Four Freedoms, you know, you know, we want to create a better world, a world where every individual is free from the fear of want, you know, of hunger. We don't go back to that again. Free from the fear of, of religious persecution, Freedom to worship whatever you want, freedom of speech, but that you can say, say what you want. These four freedoms. So, so, yeah, so freedom of want, freedom of fear, freedom so that you don't have to be worrying about what's coming around the corner. You don't have to be worrying about war and persecution and all the rest of it. Freedom of religion and freedom of speech. These are the four freedoms. This becomes the kind of sort of philosophical basis of his plans for, not just for America, but for the global post war order that's going to emerge in, eventually in 1945 under Truman. But these are big potent ideas. So you have the pragmatics, which is how America gets itself rich and makes itself rich on kind of becoming the arsenal of democracy, but you also have these sort of slightly higher ideals of going together. And his inauguration speech touches on all of this. And of course, as we know, Lend Lease act is passed in March 1941, which does indeed basically hand over stuff not just to Britain, but obviously to the Soviet Union as well and other allies. So it's amazing, really.

[Al Murray]

It's interesting though, that, because, because you know, you say, you know, war's coming, he's the only man for the job. But of course he has to do that, saying, we're not going into a war, that's their business.

[James Holland]

But he knows, but he knows they are. And he gets around it. He gets rounded by saying, I am not going to send any of our young men into war without someone starting it first. So he sort of gets round it.

[Al Murray]

But it's interesting, isn't it, because the thing with fdr, the thing that is known about him, isn't it, is that you never really actually know when you go meet him. You never really know what he's taking from the meeting with you. He keeps his own counsel, he has all sorts of subterfuges in place, doesn't he? People in their personal dealings with fdr, they find him really tricky. They find that he prefers not to give straight answers, he'll keep his own counsel. He's up to something often enough. And the fact that he does that to the American electorate, you know, and gets away with it.

[James Holland]

Yeah, but the other thing is, is that he's, he, he might be a Democrat, but, but his administration is Not a Democrat administration. It is a, it is a national administration.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, it's a national government.

[James Holland]

It is bipartisan cross party, you know, and he's smart enough to, to know that. And actually as soon as, as soon as he, he beats Wendell Wilkie, sends Wendell Wilkie off as his personal representative to Britain.

[Al Murray]

But that, that's a mirror image of Halifax being sent to Washington by Churchill, isn't it?

[James Holland]

No, I don't think it is, actually. No, I really don't think it is. I, I think that's saying, come on, I want you to be part of this. And you know, I value your opinion. And, and no, I really, really don't think it is. I think, I think it's much. And he's got Henry Stimson as the Secretary of State for War, you know, diehard Republicans and knocks at the Navy and things like this. So, you know, he's canny.

[Al Murray]

Well, that's having them inside the tent pissing out, isn't it, as the expression goes, rather than outside the tent pissing in.

[James Holland]

But it's also recognizing that you need cross party, cross Congress support. And a way you do that is by sucking up to both parties, you're not just trying to sort of keep your Democrats on side. You also want to keep your Republicans as well. You know, he's like Churchill. He's just a brilliant wartime leader, you know, cometh the hour and all the rest of it.

[Al Murray]

But it's interesting that the man whose skill set up to that point is he's been, you know, everyone regards him as tricky, but then when the, you know, he, the way he takes big crises and handles them means that that gets, that's kind of like, fine, it's part of the bargain. It doesn't matter because he's delivering. He's delivering, isn't it? It's pretty interesting, isn't it? Because, because that's exactly the sort of politicking that can wreck a politician. That can completely destroy them and undermine trust in them, particularly when the going gets tough. If you get the sense that they aren't straight with people. Because he was, he's, you know, he's, that is his reputation and his internal politicking is you, you never know really what he's going to make of what you say to him or what he's going to do. He's unreadable it. Completely inscrutable. And I think that's, that's pretty interesting. I'll tell you what we'll do. We'll take a quick break and we'll come back for the 20th of January 1942. Welcome back to. We have ways of making you talk with me, Al Murray and James Holland, where we're talking about the 20th of January. Now we've done FDR's historic third inauguration, the BEF in Brass Monkeys situation, and then Halmar Schacht's departure from the Reichsbank. And now it's January 20th, 1942. And this is, of course, when the Wannsee conference is taking place.

[James Holland]

It's indicative, isn't it, of how far Nazi Germany has gone since Hjalmar Schacht is kicked out.

[Al Murray]

Now, there's a reason that they're holding it in January, is that they were due to hold it in December. And then the strike on Pearl harbor happens and it gets put off, which is, I think, quite interesting that they're all a flap suddenly in Berlin as to what's going to happen next. The German declaration of war on the Americans. And so this gets put back and we were just saying FDR saying if there's a war, we're going to have to be, it's going to have to be declared on us. And by now that has happened within the year of FDR saying that that's happened and Vanze is put off, delayed as a result. But here they are. The thing is, is it is how far they've come. But it's always been a war aim, you know, and Schacht, of course, had Shacht, had said, if you really want Jews out of Germany, we need to put them wealth into a trust fund and we need to, we need to relocate them and all this sort of stuff and thought that there was a sort of honest way of doing it, as it were, or a cleaner way of doing it, and obviously was never going to get anywhere with the Nazi Central Command. And here it actually is out of Wannsee, that the legalistic arguments, the administrative arguments, the bureaucratic level thrashing itself out to fight what they see as a front against Germany's enemies, who they see as, as the Jews of Europe. And I mean, it's interesting, isn't it, because, because wann say, you know, it's been a subject of a drama star studded, wasn't it, with Branagh and Colin Firth and Stanley Tucci. It's peculiar, isn't it? Because also this is an event where for those, for those who want to sort of downplay or deny, I mean, sorry, they had a great big meeting where they agreed on it all and argued about which eyes to dot and Which T's to cross.

[James Holland]

But the thing about the language of. Because obviously, you know, there's, there's minutes are taken of the conference so you can see what everyone's saying. It' all written down. It's all very kind of banal on one level and just administrative and, and this is thrashing out the administrative logistical issues of how we going to set up these death camps. But what instigates in the first place is Himmler going and visiting the Baltic States, doesn't he? And he, and he sees all these executions taking place, or was it Ukraine? I can't remember. But, but anyway, he goes to east, east and France. He sees everyone, you know, shooting loads of Jews and, you know, kicking them down into pits and things. He goes, oh, that's horrible. You know, we can't have that. Can't have my guys having to go through such a traumatic thing. It's got to be another way. And Gurring is the guy who signs it off, isn't he? And then orders the right security office to sort of get on with it and to sort it out. This isn't where the decision is made. I think the thing about Vonsev, this, this is thrashing out the practicalities of it. And it's just all very calm. It's sort of, you know, it's, it's like sort of, you know, well, we're going to have to sort of dig a railway embankment and, you know, and we're going to have to put in some infrastructure and this kind of stuff. I mean, you know, as if you were just doing an engineering project. They're just talking about how they're going to, how they're going to eliminate millions of people. And it's just, it's revolting. But no one actually says that. It's just, it's, it's the banal language of the Holocaust, you know, which we've touched on before. And it is a big moment because, because this is a moment where it's all written down and this is where it's kind of, you know, it's already been given the green light. But, but this is going from green light to actually sort of, to use a metaphor of the sort of cameras rolling.

[Al Murray]

Effectively, it's not the what or the why, it's the how, isn't it?

[James Holland]

Yes, exactly. That's, that's a much better way of putting it.

[Al Murray]

There are legalistic arguments about where Jews legally in, you know, define them within the Reich and all that sort of thing. You can look at that and say, Isn't it amazing? They're arguing about this, but actually it's because they're trying to get it done. They're not arguing about that because. Because they're interested in those points. They're just trying to get it done and trying to square it off. As you say, Jim, it's about a commissioning engineering project, it's about purchase orders, it's about the boring stuff. And when we talked about Auschwitz Birkenau last year, the thing, the thing I think we were both struck by was the idea of it being a project for stakeholders in the Third Reich. What you had was different industries involved and architects, and the idea that there was. They were building a new city. That's all part of this, that there's absolutely no question that this is a project that is absolutely central to the new empire that the German, the new racial empire that the Germans want to build. It's not the why, it's the how.

[James Holland]

And this is a day of infamy, you know, it just is, isn't it?

[Al Murray]

It absolutely is, absolutely is. And the fact that it's a day, a day of infamy that's put off by another day of infamy, delayed by another day of infamy, by Pearl harbor, and also part of the. The Germans, you know, the acceleration, they're doing some of it, but it's being done to them as well. You know, the Japanese land, the Germans in the Second World War, quite firmly, as FDR is probably hoping. Anyway, let's move on a year to 20 January 1943, and an event called the Battle off Zuwarah. Back in the Royal Navy here, regime Marina as a fleet in being is becoming a fleet, not quite in being as much as the destroyers HMS Kelvin and Javelin intercept an Italian minesweeper flotilla off Zuwarah. They're leaving Tripoli, basically, and sink the lot, aren't they? Seven wounded on the. On the British side on the two destroyers, and they sink six minesweepers, a trawler, a patrol boat and a pump boat. Not a good day if you're in the Italian navy.

[James Holland]

Well, again, it sort of, you know, underlines the effectiveness of surface vessels, if you can get it, kind of poorly armed merchant men and all the rest of it. I mean, I mean, this is really, you know, it's, it's, it's game over in the Mediterranean by this point. And I know we've still got headaches to come with the Kasserine and everything in February and fondue city of Zed and in Tunisia, but, but one of the building blocks for victory in the Mediterranean is the total domination of the Royal Navy and Allied navies in the Mediterranean. And the Axis just don't have any answer to this. And they only have a limited amount of shipping at the start of the war. And unlike the Americans and unlike the British, they're not able to sort of replicate then. They can't build anymore because they don't have the resources to do so. So once they go, they go. They've gone by the summer of 1943, you know, all they've got is a few sort of coastal lighters and that's it. I mean, it's devastating.

[Al Murray]

These destroyers can engage the Italians at a range that they can't reply at in a way a U boat can't. Right. U boat's got to get up close properly, really. I mean, apart from the sort of the odd miracle, the odd miracle torpedo genius that there are out there, basically, you've got to get, you got to get pretty close. Whereas these ships can stand off and can pick their targets and destroy them. Kelvin fires 300 rounds of 4.7-inch ammo and Javelin 500 rounds.

[James Holland]

Yeah, 4.7-inch. I mean, let's face it, that's big. I mean, you think about 88 millimeter is what, three inch something, isn't it?

[Al Murray]

Yes, it's 120 millimeter guns. They're giving it some, they are big.

[James Holland]

Shells that can go miles, miles and miles and miles.

[Al Murray]

So you can, you can, if you can see them, you can shell them, you can stand off, they can't do anything about you. In a way, this is the, this battle is a perfect sort of example of the thing the Royal Navy are terrified of the German surface fleet or nervous of the German surface fleet's ability to do with its pocket battleships and its heavy cruisers. And it's. We're not going to get into classifications here.

[James Holland]

No, no, no, no, no.

[Al Murray]

But pop back to Malta, you rearm and then you go out looking for.

[James Holland]

More trouble anyway, 1944, well, we don't need to go in too much detail about this because obviously it's the anniversary of the Battle of the Rapido, you know, and I, I, I stand by my, my, my point on this. You know, Fred Walker got it wrong. It was a terrible, terrible battle plan and he didn't make the most of the assets he was given. And then when it all went wrong, he got himself into such a la. It was only ever going to be a disaster because, you know, it was going to Be always going to be a self fulfilled kind of crisis.

[Al Murray]

Unforced error though, the whole thing.

[James Holland]

Armed forced error. Where were those quads? Where were those Sherman tanks? Where were those tank destroyers? But units, I mean, just not involved, not used at all. And as I said before, if you want to, you know, it can work because it worked across the wall in September 1944 in daylight over a river probably, you know, 50 times as wide.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, it can, it can be done. And what you're talking about really there is, is essentially pepper pottering, which is what? Or pepper. Pepper potting, not pepper pottering. I don't know how I came to that. Pepper potting, which is what the, what the British end up doing by the following January, isn't it?

[James Holland]

It's a pressing fire.

[Al Murray]

It's a pressing fire, yeah. And you fire absolutely everything you've got.

[James Holland]

Everything you can and you and your, and your information get across.

[Al Murray]

Not rocket science, is it, Jim?

[James Holland]

No, no, sir.

[Al Murray]

And then the following January 1945, January 20th, we have another inauguration, a historic fourth inauguration. I mean, he's broken his personal best of three and he's not very well. Why does. Okay, isn't it. So we. I asked the question, why does he run in 1940 when you don't run for a third go. He knows how ill he is. He knows how sick he is. Right. The people closest to him know how. Probably know how sick he is. Why on earth does he run?

[James Holland]

For the same reason he runs the third time. He wants to see it out. He knows he's so close and he just feels he's the man for steering it in the final bit. And he's right. And one of the greatest things he does is choose Truman as his running mate, which is a left field choice that no one predicts, no one can see coming. It's his kind of last masterstroke. Because, you know, Truman is a fabulous president. I mean, he's one of the greatest ever for the way he handles the situation that he finds himself in for the Truman Doctrine, which, you know, develops into the Marshall Plan. You know, the first time ever that the victors are helping out the vanquished economically. I mean, you know, just incredible. I think the last big mistake he makes is going to Yalta. You know, he should never have done it. You know, the problem is, you know, his arteries were clogging at this point. You look at the last photo of him which taken the day before he died. It's taken on the 11th of April 1945. He looks nearly 80. He looks 75. He's actually 63.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, he looks like he's completely had it. It's interesting though, isn't it? Because clearly he was powerful enough. Even dying essentially even on his last legs, he was powerful enough to convince people that he should run, you know, because after all, being a politician, you don't just lead, do you? Don't just say, I'm doing this. You've got to have the consensus behind you, got to have the people to back you. That he was able to convince people that he was actually okay, that he, it's kind of interesting because rationally you hand over, don't you?

[James Holland]

And there's no question about it. There's no question of him carrying on. I mean, absolutely none at all. It's just no one goes there. I mean it's just a given that he's going to push on, going to run. But by this point, you know, his sort of, you know, active role in day to day politics is pretty small. It's just he is the man who's got the say. So, so all he's got to do in these kind of months is he hasn't got to sort of run the government. He's got to, he's just got to make decisions. So he's spending a lot of time out. And one of the reasons why Truman has only seen him twice since your inauguration is because he's in Yalta. He comes back from Yalta and by the way, on his way back from Yalta, he basically signs up the, the Saudi oil deal, which is going to be part of American doctrine in the decades to come. And then when he gets back, he goes back to his place in, in Georgia, you know, which is where he dies and you know, he's not seen again. I mean he's not in Washington. So, so from January, you know, whenever it was 21st to to his death on the 12th of April, he's, he's barely in Washington, but what a great man.

[Al Murray]

I think you made your feelings clear there, Jim.

[James Holland]

Both on Fred Walker and fdr.

[Al Murray]

I mean the thing is, is in a way the hard part to come isn't it? Is what's got, what do you do about Japan? The war in Europe is won even though you've had the setback of the apparent setback of the Ardennes, also the political setback of the Ardennes, haven't you by the time he becomes President for the fourth time, you know, by the, by this point in January 1945, the next thing is actually how do you fight the war in Japan and it's. I think it's sort of even. That's kind of on tram lines, isn't it? You know which way it's going to go. Although the atomic bomb isn't ready and although we. That decision has yet to be made, it feels to me like FDR would have decided to do exactly the same thing. I don't see him coming to a different conclusion. Maybe it's Truman's sort of renewed vigour that means that the American attitude to the Soviets becomes a little less trusting once FDR's out of the picture as well as Soviet actions. Let's not forget the way Stalin behaves as the war's ending. Kind of does offer points of friction, you know, when we talked about Yalta. But very much there's not a lot the Western allies can do to change Stalin's mind about anything. So maybe FDR being out of the picture of just. It's like a valedictory run at being president. Thanks very much. And your replacement will be along shortly.

[James Holland]

But I also think it's about external image. You know, he's the war leader. Now is not the time to have a change of war leader. Just as it's all coming to a head, you know, for the troops from a point of view of unity for the enemy. You don't want to give the enemy any hope. You know, there's a whole host of things going on there.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. You'd chuck a slab of doubt in, wouldn't you? Yeah.

[James Holland]

And it's just, it's just, it's not even considered. I mean, of course he's going to run, but equally anyone who's going to be. Whoever's going to be VP had better.

[Al Murray]

Be up to it.

[James Holland]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is why Truman's so nervous about it, you know.

[Al Murray]

Well, brilliant. I think that's been an interesting canter across the twentieths of January. Yeah.

[James Holland]

Good old school war waffle. I liked it.

[Al Murray]

Proper old school war waffle. We have some great plans. Plans for the new year which include looking at 4th Fighter Group through the career of Don Blakeslee. Very excited about that. We have of course announced to save the dates for we have ways Fest 6, which we haven't. We haven't. I don't know we've yet come up with a snappy nickname for that. Beyond being given the opportunity to say the word sex a lot. Like we're 12 year old boys who think that's hilarious. Yeah.

[James Holland]

I would say just don't try too hard with that one. I. I mean, you know, sex does it, I think.

[Al Murray]

And of course, we have many, many live streams to come on Monday's fortnightly for our Patreon subscribers, so sign up now. And of course, on Patreon. Well, first of all, there's the stuff as we move forward. So there's the things we're planning, the things we've got coming. There's. We have waste fest sex to consider. They sit you. I think you're right, Jim. Actually, there's. There's. There's also audiobook stuff, a whole stack of it. Historic audiobook stuff. And the chance to chat with other war nerds, Second World War afflicted people.

[James Holland]

And we got a load more. We've got the four fighter group, of course, but we've also got a load more series coming up. And if you don't want to. If you're too tight to do Patron, but you. You don't want to have the adverts, then join the Officers Club on Apple.

[Al Murray]

But we don't do the hard sell on this podcast, do we, Jim?

[James Holland]

No, we don't do a hard sell. We don't do a hard sell. We just do a little kind of, you know, lay on a plate. This is what you could get if you fancied it.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, a little tickle.

[James Holland]

Yeah, a little tickle. It was. No, no pressure.

[Al Murray]

A little nibble. And I am on tour, of course, currently, so if you're an IC member, wear your IC shirt and then you won't get the piss taken. It's as simple.

[James Holland]

And I think, you know, are you able to give a little sneak preview and sort of just mention the fact that there are some. Some war references?

[Al Murray]

There are. If you want a proper explanation of the true meaning of a few, that is on offer. How do you define a few? Because Winston Churchill defined a few. What did he mean by a few? That's actually how the show ends, with a big. The Winston Churchill impression.

[James Holland]

Oh, can't wait. Can't wait. Brilliant. Love it.

[Al Murray]

There's also. There's a little bit about Alan Turing as well.

[James Holland]

Fantastic.

[Al Murray]

Even better of what Alan Turing might have wanted. Anyway, thanks, everybody. Thanks for listening. We will see you again very soon. Cheerio.

[James Holland]

Cheerio.

[Gordon Carrera]

One of the darkest scandals of the modern era. A billionaire financier, powerful friends, hidden networks and questions that refuse to go away. Was Jeffrey Epstein a spy? I'm Gordon Carrera. And I'm David McCloskey. And we're the hosts of the Rest Is Classified, the Intelligence and National Security podcast from Goal hanger. And we've just released a gripping new series investigating whether Epstein was linked to any spy agency and asking what those agencies might have known about him. Listen or watch now on Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.