WW2 Pod: We Have Ways of Making You Talk

Atlantic War: No Phoney War At Sea (Part 1)

Hosts: Al Murray (comedian) & James Holland (historian)
Release Date: November 18, 2025

Overview

In this episode, Al Murray and James Holland begin an in-depth series on the Atlantic War, focusing on its opening chapters and dispelling the myth of a “Phoney War” at sea. Covering the critical period from September 1939 to May 1941 (cutting off just before the Bismarck chase), the hosts explore the early clashes between the Royal Navy and the Kriegsmarine, including dramatic first strikes, technological innovations, and the strategic blunders on both sides. With their signature blend of insight, storytelling, and dark humour, Al and James set the stage for understanding why the Atlantic War was arguably the most pivotal campaign of WWII.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Dispelling the “Phoney War” Myth

• Main point: While the land war in 1939/40 is famed for its inactivity (the “Phoney War”), at sea violent conflict started immediately.
• Memorable quote:
  • Al: “Put all of your phoney war stuff aside…it's being fought tooth and nail in the Atlantic from the very beginning.” (08:17)

2. The Sinking of SS Athenia – The War’s First Maritime Tragedy

• Story of Jimmy Goodson:
  • On 3 September 1939, SS Athenia is torpedoed by U30 under Fritz Julius Lemp, marking the beginning of deadly U-boat attacks.
  • The episode tracks 18-year-old Jimmy Goodson’s harrowing escape and acts of heroism, illustrated closely through survivor testimony.
  • Emotional aftermath: Goodson’s drive to join the air war came from this traumatic experience.
• Notable moment:
  • James (recounting Goodson): “He’s overcome by fury there and then he decides to do something…he goes back to Canada, joins the Royal Canadian Air Force.” (09:22–10:17)
  • Outcome: Of 1,418 people, 98 passengers and 19 crew perish, but most are rescued due to the slow sinking and rescue efforts. (35:16)

3. British and German Naval Strengths and Weaknesses

The Royal Navy

• Largest navy in the world in 1939:
  • 15 battleships, 7 aircraft carriers, 15 heavy cruisers, 49 light cruisers, 192 destroyers, 12,500 merchant vessels, etc.
• Strategic edge:
  • Expansive empire, merchant fleet (33% of world shipping), seasoned personnel from a culture of seamanship (“Yachtsmen go to war”).
  • Robust infrastructure: Operational Intelligence Centre (OIC), Naval Control of Shipping (NCS), cutting-edge cryptography at Bletchley Park, and aerial reconnaissance capabilities. (41:41–42:30)
• Tone:
  • James: “The Goliath of world navies is the Royal Navy in 1939…puts it in a very, very good position.” (13:37)

The German Kriegsmarine

• Outdated or incomplete force compared to the Royal Navy.
• Inter-service rivalries cripple development; Hitler and Raeder prioritize surface ships over U-boats pre-war.
• The “Z Plan”:
  • Fantastical plan for massive surface fleet that never materializes; dropped in September 1939. (30:46–31:49)
• U-boat arm:
  • Only 18 U-boats operational in the Atlantic at the outbreak—a fraction of what Donitz wanted.
  • Donitz’s frustration at lack of investment:
    • “Seldom indeed has any branch of the armed forces of any country gone to war so poorly equipped.” (34:25–34:29)
  • Donitz’s insight that 300 boats are needed for effective Atlantic campaign (rule of thirds).

4. Early Naval Blows and Lessons: Courage and Catastrophe

• HMS Courageous (aircraft carrier) sunk by U-29 on 17 September 1939 with huge loss of life, due to vulnerabilities in anti-submarine warfare.
  • “You deploy these things, they are instantly vulnerable.” (47:14)
• Gunther Prien’s audacious attack at Scapa Flow:
  • U-47 infiltrates the British Home Fleet anchorage and torpedoes HMS Royal Oak on 14 October 1939, shocking the Admiralty and resulting in over 800 deaths.
  • Vivid memoir excerpts dramatize the torpedo attack and aftermath. (53:39–54:22)
  • “It’s as if I’ve been allowed to take a peek through the slightly open door of hell.” — Prien (54:09)
• Aftermath:
  • “This is an extraordinary blow…the largest loss of boy sailors in any action in British naval history.” (54:22)

5. German Strategic Blunders: Too Few Subs, Too Much Hubris

• Kriegsmarine’s initial surface-focused plans compounded by lack of bases, oil, raw materials, shipyards, and experience.
• “The Z Plan is total la la land. I mean, it is absolutely fantasy.” — James (31:49)
• Missed opportunity: Had Germany invested early in U-boats (as Donitz pleaded), the first phase of the Atlantic War could have been even more catastrophic for Britain.

6. British Adaptability and Standing Orders

• Rapid evolution in tactics, particularly around convoys and merchant vessel protection.
• Complexities of convoy system logistics and why independents still sailed.
  • “It’s not a very efficient way of doing things, but it’s a much more efficient way of getting ships safely across the ocean.” (43:00)
• Naval/merchant infrastructure is robust, but early complacency and errors reveal a steep learning curve.

7. The Opening Months – Not All Goes Britain’s Way

• For every German psychological victory (Athenia, Courageous, Royal Oak), the Royal Navy suffers setbacks but also rapidly adapts.
• “1939 ends with the Royal Navy having learned many, many important lessons and the Germans ruining…I think a number of missed opportunities.” (56:03)
• The war at sea is revealed as real, unrelenting, and foundational for the rest of WWII—not at all “phony.”

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Human Cost:
  • “I think your final moments as you slip below the waves would be very lonely, wouldn’t they? And you’d just be thinking, oh, my God, I’m going to be fish bait.” — James (06:31)
• Dark British Humour:
  • “Calling it a wolf pack…That’s the thing a 13-year-old boy would—yeah, it’s gonna be called like a wolf pack, fatty.” — Al (38:47)
• On German Myopia:
  • “Everyone’s getting very, very carried away by scenes from Nuremberg rallies and how mighty they are. But huge fleets require vast amounts of steel…None of those things Germany has in its favour.” — James (29:52)
• Satirical Dismissal of Nazi Planning:
  • “It’s batshit crazy. And Donitz is there at those meetings around the board table, puts up his hand and goes, can I just put in a plea for more U boats, please? Everyone goes, yeah, yeah, get back in your box.” — James (32:25)
• Preen’s Periscope View:
  • “It’s as if I’ve been allowed to take a peek through the slightly open door of hell.” — Prien (54:09)

Important Segment Timestamps

| Time | Segment / Event | |----------|-----------------------------------------------------------| | 02:25 | Dramatic prelude: U-boat commander Preen’s perspective | | 06:39 | Story of SS Athenia and Jimmy Goodson’s ordeal | | 11:24 | Churchill returns as First Lord of the Admiralty | | 13:37 | Royal Navy’s 1939 strength and global shipping reach | | 19:27 | German strategic weaknesses and shortcomings | | 23:23 | U-boat doctrine and Nazi surface fleet obsession | | 30:29 | Analysis of the unrealistic “Z Plan” | | 34:25 | Donitz laments lack of U-boats (“so poorly equipped”) | | 41:41 | British naval control, intelligence, and bureaucracy | | 47:14 | Sinking of HMS Courageous and lessons learned | | 48:47 | Dramatic retelling of Prien’s infiltration and Royal Oak | | 53:34 | Emotional account of the sinking and losses | | 56:03 | End of 1939: British learn, Germans rue missed chances |

Tone & Style

Lively, clever, and conversational.

• Al and James trade banter, occasionally poke fun at the grimness or bureaucratic absurdity of the era, and do not shy away from vivid or emotional detail.
• They maintain respect for the seriousness of loss in recounting tragedies and emphasize the unpredictability and brutality of the campaign.

Conclusion

The episode sets the tone for a thorough, human, and technical exploration of the Atlantic War, highlighting that the early months were fiercely contested, fraught with missed opportunities, innovation, and immediate human impact. The so-called “Phoney War” was anything but “phony” at sea: the Atlantic was a battleground from the war’s opening moments.

Listeners are left eager for part two, where the consequences, adaptations, and continuing drama will unfold.