British Sea Power, Canadian Riots, & Japanese Death Rockets

Summary

WW2 Pod: We Have Ways of Making You Talk
Episode: British Sea Power, Canadian Riots, & Japanese Death Rockets
Release Date: June 30, 2025

Hosts: Al Murray and James Holland

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Introduction & Catch-Up [01:59 – 02:27]

Al Murray and historian James Holland kick off the episode with a casual catch-up, discussing their recent travels and literary pursuits. Al shares his enthusiasm for Nan Rogers' comprehensive two-volume history of British naval power, highlighting its depth and insightful analysis. Both hosts emphasize their passion for World War II history, setting the stage for an engaging discussion filled with expert knowledge and humor.

Al Murray [02:27]: "It's the most extraordinary thing and it's set off lots of deep thoughts, Jim."

The Emotional Impact of Visiting WWII Battle Sites [02:44 – 07:48]

James Holland recounts his visit to Italy, where he reflects on the harrowing experiences of young soldiers during the war. He shares poignant stories of bravery and loss, including the tragic fate of Sergeant Murphy and the struggles of David Cole. These narratives underscore the human cost of war, emphasizing the universal emotions and fears shared by those who served.

James Holland [07:14]: "I found the whole thing really upsetting, actually, this time."

German Naval Strategy and Post-War Narratives [08:05 – 11:53]

The conversation delves into German naval strategies during WWII, particularly focusing on Plan Z—a massive and ultimately unfeasible German naval expansion plan. Al and James discuss how German military leadership attempted to shift blame for wartime failures onto the government, a pattern reminiscent of post-WWI behavior. This section highlights the recurring themes of leadership accountability in German history.

Al Murray [09:33]: "There are patterns of human behavior that repeat themselves in German culture."

American Isolationism and its Consequences [11:05 – 16:23]

Al Murray explores America's isolationist stance before and during the early years of WWII. He explains how political decisions, such as resisting involvement in European affairs and focusing on naval shipbuilding limitations, impacted the Allied war effort. James Holland adds insights into the internal tensions between the US Navy and Air Force, revealing how inter-service rivalries hindered effective cooperation.

Al Murray [12:22]: "Look at how quickly things can change in modern politics, how quickly opinions can shift."

The Fragility of Allied Naval Power [16:27 – 20:42]

The hosts discuss the delicate balance of naval power among the Allies. Al highlights how Britain's naval projects were still significant despite treaties limiting battleship numbers. James emphasizes the importance of naval power in both the Atlantic and Pacific theaters, arguing that the war's outcome heavily depended on shipping, supplies, and naval engagements.

James Holland [21:13]: "Naval power clearly holds the key to the entire Second World War."

Operation Oboe and the Liberation of Borneo [28:29 – 29:48]

Al and James cover key July 1945 events, including the Battle of Balikpapan, where Australian and Dutch forces made amphibious landings to liberate Borneo from Japanese control. They discuss the strategic significance of these operations and their role in the broader context of the Pacific War.

Al Murray [28:37]: "It's really, really important that the British fleet should engage in the most modern type of naval warfare."

Japanese Technological Innovations: The Mitsubishi J8 Rocket [35:07 – 37:21]

The episode delves into Japanese attempts to develop advanced weaponry, such as the Mitsubishi J8 rocket—a Japanese equivalent of the German Me 163 Komet. Al and James explore the technical challenges and ultimate failures of these projects, illustrating the desperate measures taken by Japan as the war turned against them.

James Holland [36:35]: "It gets 2 minutes, 30 seconds of power on a range of 7 minutes."

Atrocities and War Crimes [36:54 – 37:58]

The hosts touch on the darker aspects of the war, including Japanese massacres in Burma and the disturbing incident of American Private Clarence Bertucci murdering German POWs. These stories highlight the brutality and psychological toll of the conflict on individuals.

James Holland [37:44]: "It's quite extreme, isn't it?"

Conspiracy Theories and Misinformation [30:01 – 31:29]

Al and James address modern conspiracy theories surrounding Hitler's supposed escape to New York, debunking these myths with factual observations. They draw parallels to contemporary misinformation, emphasizing the importance of historical accuracy.

Al Murray [30:05]: "It's no coincidence he lived half away from a top secret nuclear research plant. And I just said to him where he lived and how far from that place doesn't put Hitler's brains back in his skull, mate."

Reflections on Naval Power's Decline and the Atomic Age [27:20 – 28:39]

The discussion shifts to the decline of traditional naval power in the face of the Atomic Age. Al explains how nuclear weapons and strategic shifts have transformed global military dynamics, reducing the prominence of battleships and emphasizing air power and mutually assured destruction as the new pillars of military strategy.

Al Murray [27:25]: "Questions then become of Mutually Assured Destruction in terms of the security of the world."

Conclusion: The Enduring Importance of Naval Power [38:05 – 39:42]

As the episode wraps up, Al and James reiterate the critical role of naval power in WWII and its lasting impact on modern military strategy. They express gratitude to their listeners and promote their Patreon for additional content, livestreams, and community engagement. The hosts conclude with a light-hearted reflection on hosting the podcast as akin to friendly pub conversations, reinforcing their camaraderie and passion for history.

Al Murray [39:02]: "This podcast makes a resounding noise of war waffle across the planet. So thanks all of you for joining us."

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Notable Quotes:

• Al Murray [09:33]: "There are patterns of human behavior that repeat themselves in German culture."
• James Holland [21:13]: "Naval power clearly holds the key to the entire Second World War."
• Al Murray [30:05]: "It's no coincidence he lived half away from a top secret nuclear research plant."

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This episode offers a deep dive into the strategic intricacies of naval power during WWII, the political dynamics of the era, and the personal reflections of James Holland on visiting historical sites. Al Murray's humor and engaging dialogue make complex historical topics accessible and compelling, providing listeners with a nuanced understanding of the war's multifaceted legacy.

Transcript

[Al Murray]

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[Al Murray]

Achtung Ak Tung. Welcome to we have ways of making you talk with me, Al Murray and James Holland, your Second World War podcast for all your Second World War needs. Now this is one of our war waffle chats, isn't it, Jim?

[James Holland]

And we don't do them that often these days.

[Al Murray]

There's lots to catch up about because we've been on our travels.

[James Holland]

We've been reading, haven't we?

[Al Murray]

Yeah, reading a lot. You've been to Italy. I've been to Italy, so I've gone all Navy.

[James Holland]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You've been reading Nan Rogers, haven't you?

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah. It's amazing. It's an amazing book.

[James Holland]

He is the doyen of the royal historian of the Royal Navy, isn't he?

[Al Murray]

Yeah, but what an undertaking. A two volume history of British naval power covering the last three centuries. I mean, I recommend it to anyone. Yes, it's the most extraordinary thing and it's set off lots of deep thoughts, Jim. But we'll get to those in a bit. And then the other thing I've been reading is the sketches for the answer show.

[James Holland]

Yes. It's just really funny. I'm. Read the rumble ones yet? No. I want to spill any beans.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. It's just too, too funny.

[James Holland]

Yes. And the reason why I thought I was going to be late is because I've been putting stencils onto the Jeep all afternoon with Marcus.

[Al Murray]

Oh, tell us all about it.

[James Holland]

It's looking great. And it's now anglified, which I'm very happy about.

[Al Murray]

Brilliant.

[James Holland]

So it's got side lights rather than American ones. They have a lone big lamp on the left hand fender or the driver's side. But British ones had two little side lights on the fender. So we've put those on and the star is now pointing away rather than two.

[Al Murray]

Right.

[James Holland]

But it's got the figure, this a weird figure of eight for the 21st Army Group. And then it's got the actual 21st Army Group badge on it, but the black base is down. So I've now got to do the next one when it properly dries out. So it's all very exciting. It's looking really cool.

[Al Murray]

Tac HQ markings, essentially.

[James Holland]

21St Army. Great. Tac HQ.

[Al Murray]

Oh, imagine.

[James Holland]

So when you and I go to Normandy in a couple of weeks.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

We can beef around pretending we're Carol Mather and someone else.

[Al Murray]

Yes, we can. I was looking at Robin Ne's book about Normandy.

[James Holland]

He was such a good bloke.

[Al Murray]

Was he? Fascinating bloke. There's the bit about the phase lines and the actual conversation about the phase lines. It's just basically just put where you want. They don't matter.

[James Holland]

No, they don't matter. That's the whole point.

[Al Murray]

Monty's saying that it's not matter, but it's Kit Dornay and his account is Monty saying, they're not important. You know that just put them on. They don't mean anything.

[James Holland]

Everyone knows that except Tamar Bradley.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. So it's the 7th of April, eight weeks before D Day. Dornay says where the phase line should be drawn between D Day and d day plus 90. Monty replied, well, it doesn't matter, Kit. Draw them where you like. Shall I draw them equally, sir? Said Tommy. Yes, that'll do, replied Monty.

[James Holland]

Well, I think that that proves my point, doesn't it? That it's very much just a guideline.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. Guidelines. They're for the logistics people.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

Nothing more, Nothing more, nothing less. So you, you've been in Italy?

[James Holland]

Yes. And you know, inevitably, whenever you walk the ground, you always have different thoughts and different things occur to you. I suppose one of the things that really, really occurred to me was, you know, just so much was expected of these young men. I mean, we were there in kind of sort of, you know, May. It was beautiful and lovely and sunny. And you could look from Monte Damiano over where fifth Division were crossing towards the Minturno Ridge. You could see it. There was your Centi Valley where they were up against 94th Division. You know, you could see the whole thing. It's all laid out. And he just thought, God, you know, this is one thing seeing this in summer, but quite another doing this in January.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

The rain pelting down the kind of, you know, the river in spate, as they say.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

You know, mud on the ground, mines everywhere at night. Yeah. Looking again at John Strick, who was this guy who did this patrol into Castle 40. And kind of, you know, guy behind him hit a mine and he got flown eight feet into the air. And guy behind him, he triggered the mine, lost a foot and broke both legs. And his sergeant went missing. And they had some. They had some shooting and never recovered him. So I thought, right, I'm gonna. That was Sergeant Murphy. I thought, I'm gonna go and visit Sergeant Murphy's grave. So we did in the Minturno Cemetery. And. And for once it was. You know, the lawn was immaculate. You know, the umbrella pines were immaculate. The sun was shining. The sky was azure blue. All the rest of it, the gravestones looked a little bit sort of down a hill. It was a bit weathered, it was a bit unloved. And I think that's because it was kind of. What was it, kind of east facing, northeast facing, Something like that. Anyway, it looks a little bit sad. And I found Murphy's grave and there he was. So he obviously, you know, he had been shot and killed and his body later recovered. And then I was thinking about David Cole, and I was thinking about him trying to struggle across the Garrigiano. And, you know, his first radio operator gets killed just to kind of prize the radio off. And then they get across the river eventually and they have to go through the minefields. And then they kind of, you know, reach the kind of. Basically the foot of the Mino Ridge and they got to climb up. Another shell comes in and he's covered in blood. And it's the adjutant that he's just been talking to a minute ago. He's now bits. And then he looks at the replacement signaler you know, the guy with the radio pack and his whole front of his face has just been shorn off and he's got a prize of, you know, the radio off that, and then he's sort of got to carry on. And this is a guy who's kind of, you know, just never would have been in uniform had it not been for the war. You know, studying history at Cambridge when he decides he ought to do his bit. No, he's a sort of gentle, nice bookish type. Round glasses and a rather feeble moustache.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

You know, what are these people doing? Yeah, scrambling over minefields in the middle of the night. You know, the only illumination coming from star shells and flares and things and, you know, explosions. How can you possibly make sense of this? And, you know, I'm struck more and more that these people are no different from you or I or, or as we were at that age. Ye know, they have the same thoughts, the same worries, anxieties. It's just in a world that is fundamentally different but has many similarities as well, but, but the emotions, the thoughts are the same, you know, it's devastating, really. I found the whole thing really upsetting, actually, this time.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

I mean, you usually. You feel a bit kind of sad when you go into a cemetery. You don't feel depressed? I felt depressed about it.

[Al Murray]

Well, but do you think that's because one of the things that's the shifting perspective now is that because there are wars going on, it's not 80 years ago anymore, it's happening right this minute. And it's happening, as you say, to people just like you and me.

[James Holland]

Yeah, yeah, I think that's exactly what it is, kind of. It does, it does feel a little bit of sleepwalking and, you know, I.

[Al Murray]

Mean, the thing is, though, that I keep coming back to more and more, particularly when you talk about American soldiers in Italy fighting this war. The president that has sentenced this war was elected on an isolationist ticket only a couple of years before, and here they are doing it. In some of the reading I'm going to do, just some of the parallels at the end of the First World War and the end of the Second World War are very interesting. At the end of the First World War, German opinion attempts to pivot to blaming the government. Right. And they succeed in doing that, exonerating their generals and the civilians, in the end going, well, actually, we're victims of this entire process. We didn't. It's nothing to do with our country or our government's aggression in the stuff we've looked at at the end of the Second World War, there is a definite attempt to do that ripple again, isn't there? Yeah, you look at Germans very, very quickly talking about, well, we were bombed horribly and you know, and Jodl getting up rams and saying, no one's been through anything worse than us, by the way. The things that have been demanded of the German people and the German people exceed anyone else's suffering. So, you know, we hope you're going to be kind to us. In other words, we're going back to our standard thing. And the generals are also after the war saying, is all Hitler being useless and undermining us? It's exactly the same thing. The generals at the end of the First World War saying the government undermined us and if we'd been allowed to fight the war properly, we'd have won it. You know how you always say history doesn't repeat itself? There are patterns of human behavior that repeat themselves in German culture.

[James Holland]

The end of both of those wars.

[Al Murray]

There'S a concerted effort to do the.

[James Holland]

Same thing for the masses to distance themselves from the hierarchy.

[Al Murray]

Exactly. And then the soldiers to go, well, you know, if only we'd not been let down by the politicians.

[James Holland]

Yeah, it's all Hitler's fault.

[Al Murray]

Exactly, exactly. And you know, you immediately after the war you get, you know, Little Heart talking to them all and publishing that book, the Other side of the Hill, where they were going, well, you know, if only, if only Adolf would let us do Barbarossa our way, everything, we'd have beaten the Soviets. And of course Little Heart is into these guys because they're Panzer people who he used to like before the war particularly, you know, and it feels himself part of that kind of conversation, how powerful that is as a historiographical idea.

[James Holland]

It's embarrassing reading now, I think.

[Al Murray]

Yes, but it's rinse repeat for the end of the First World War. That's what I'm so struck by. But the other thing is America's isolationist posture after the First World War. It's not just. So you've got two things happen at once. Wilson has his stroke when he's at Versailles and then Congress won't back the Versailles Treaty, won't back the League of Nations. Right. That obviously means from then on no one trusts the Americans anymore, in diplomatic terms anyway. Isolationist or not, no one trusts them in Europe.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

Because they've created this situation where they want self determination and they run away from it. They told Europe to redraw itself so that America doesn't have to get involved again and then basically refuse to back it.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

Which is what makes NATO so significant in the years that follow the Second World War, is that the Europeans, the Americans know they, you know, they've got to bind themselves to Europe to prevent this happening again. Which is fascinating because there's no appetite at the end of First World War.

[James Holland]

No. There's a huge resentment of big business being. Being the sort of blood butchers.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. And the British tricking America into the war and all this sort of stuff.

[James Holland]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, all that. Yeah.

[Al Murray]

Because there's tons. I mean, I think the thing really got to remember is there's an awful lot of. There's a core body of American opinion that doesn't like Britain, that hates the British Empire, that has no appetite for it at all, and sees the First World War as our decadent former enemy needing rescuing. So you can see all the currents that lead to. Even when it's obvious what the Second World War amounts to in 1939, 1940, what's actually going on in Europe, and particularly after the strategic earthquake that Roosevelt runs an isolationist ticket after the fall of France, is absolutely amazing. And it's even more incredible that three years later there are people fighting.

[James Holland]

Yes. And how. And how well they've coalitioned with Britain. I mean, it's just amazing, really.

[Al Murray]

It's absolutely incredible, you know, because after all, you look at how actually how quickly things can change in modern politics, how quickly opinions can. Can shift, how quickly the pendulum can swing against people. If nothing else, we still don't know in the end which way America might jump in a whole load of options. Right now it's adopted an isolationist posture, but who's to say that that's the one it's going to stick with? Because after all, look at as it.

[James Holland]

Threatens Iran with war.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, well, exactly, exactly. That's exactly my point. Right. And. And that, again, that just makes. It just makes all. All the stuff we've ever talked about all the more amazing. And even the Americans fighting at the other end of the Pacific, there's their peculiar business in the late 30s where there are people in the Royal Navy saying, we'd really great if the Americans would use Singapore as a harbor rather than Pearl Harbor. That would. That would be. That'd be great. And the American Navy going, you could forget it. Even though actually, in the strategic picture, if there's going to be a war with Japan, Singapore is a much better option for the Americans, much easier to protect the Philippines because the problem with Pearl harbor is how far away it is from America's actual interests. It's thousands of miles from the Philippines rather than hundreds like Singapore. But no one can agree on anything in the American Navy in the interwar period. Just so interesting, you know, how the different governments basically say, we're not getting involved again, although American money's in Europe, so American money isn't being isolationists. They're trying to do it through capital rather than through security. You know, there's elements in the US Navy who are basically as long as they can keep the British Navy down by limiting the numbers of ships, the better that's their win in the interwar years. I mean, we were talking about this before we came on. I've been reading Price of Victory by Nam Roger. What's interesting is this, the 19th century stuff, there's basically not much other naval history in it, but once you get to the mid 20th century. The thing I was struck by more than anything else reading this, in the 1930s, 1920s and 1930s, there's this endless diplomatic arm wrestling about how many ships you can build, what speed they can go, how they can be armed, what their endurance is, and all this sort of stuff, right? The Americans can't make a torpedo, which is why they opt for dive bombing. They can't make a torpedo that works. That's what drives them to die.

[James Holland]

It's still the big problem for the US Navy submarines in the Pacific until 44, I think.

[Al Murray]

And they've got these concepts of battle and the way that the idea is you have a big battle and defeat the other navy and then carry on, even though the First World War shown that that isn't really going to happen. Because Jutland, it's essentially inconclusive, right? So there's all these treaties limiting battleship numbers, 1945, the atomic bomb. No one talks about limiting navies after that. It's gone.

[James Holland]

Yeah, it's not interesting.

[Al Murray]

The massive shifts in the way the world works, that's one of them. And obviously naval power is still incredibly important because the world operates on maritime trade, right?

[James Holland]

It still is and it still is.

[Al Murray]

But navies aren't how you calculate that anymore. One of the points he makes, it's absolutely fascinating as they go into the war, the American Navy and the American army basically despise one each other. And there are periods during the war where the Navy refuses in the Pacific to share intelligence with the American Army. It won't do.

[James Holland]

That's amazing, isn't it?

[Al Murray]

Whatever tensions between the British and Americans. The tensions within the American service establishment is completely crazy, right? The things they won't do for each other. They're arguing over who should patrol the sea. You know, should it be the US Army, Air Force or should it be the US Navy? Who does that job belong to? And they can't agree. And a big part of the bomber craze, the bomber people, is because they're trying to find a way to beat the navy at their own game. The flying people in the army who despise the navy and are trying to find a way to snooker the navy strategically. And that's why they get so stuck into bombing as what the Air Force can do to win a war. Because after all, the other thing that's that, you know, the British say it's the blockade that won the First World War. The Royal Navy's saying that everyone sort of agrees on that. But after the First World War, no one wants to spend money on warships. So whatever war you're going to fight next, you're not going to be able to win it with a blockade, because no one wants to build ships. And ships are totemic of the First.

[James Holland]

World War, but the British Navy is still the largest in 1939. So.

[Al Murray]

Well, and he makes a very interesting point about rearmament where he says, you know, look, look, the state of the Royal Navy, you know, and its projects and what it's doing. Ultimately, a navy that was out building its potential friends and foes alike and rigging the system of global naval arms control for its own strategic purposes cannot be described as being in a state of decline.

[James Holland]

That's very old message, isn't it? I mean, I would agree with that entirely.

[Al Murray]

When you look at Plan Z in 1940, just absolutely love this, what the Germans planning to build, well, in 1939, it envisages 10 super battleships, eight aircra carriers, 15 armored ships, as they call them. It's the pocket battleships or whatever you want to call them.

[James Holland]

Yep.

[Al Murray]

Five heavy and 24 light cruisers, 68 destroyers, 249 U boats. Right. In 1940, it's expanded to 80 battleships, 15 to 20 carriers, 100 cruisers, 500 submarines. Right?

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

It's absolutely amazing. And Halder says these people dream incontinence. It's just impossible. You know, the 1939 plan requires 6 million tonnes of fuel oil and 2 million tonnes of diesel, although Germany's total consumption of all mineral oils is just over 6 million tons a year, less than half of that for domestic production.

[James Holland]

It's total fantasy, isn't it?

[Al Murray]

It's a complete fantasy.

[James Holland]

Whereas what they should have done, of course, is just build lots of U boats.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah. But with Eden, the Kriegsmarine opinion is it's the U boats that lost Germany the First World War, because when they went to under restricted submarine warfare, it brought the Americans in. So naval people, raider, those people, they don't believe in using U boats, they hate it.

[James Holland]

And that's why they haven't built up a large U boat for them.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. And also that surface ships would be much more effective against convoys, which they would be if the Germans were prepared to engage them. But they don't feel they've got a critical mass to do anything decisive in that way. So they end up hiding them and, you know, not bringing them to battle. It's absolutely fascinating, isn't it? But by the end of the war, Ayers completely supplanted naval power as your way of extending your, you know, of delivering force abroad. And the air people, you can argue that the air people have won through the atomic bomb and through your super fortresses or whatever, they've won and they've won the war and defeated naval power. And from an RAF that in the in between war years, doesn't really know what it wants, it's Baldin who gets RDF development going. And one of the really interesting things that Roger says is that the BBC were told to develop their technology within the same frequency wavelengths and stuff as rdf, as radar, so that, lo and behold, they were working in the same, essentially in the same field of, you know, electromagnetism and all that sort of stuff, signal transmission, so that there was a cross fertilization in the technology, that their breakthroughs would then belong to the radar.

[James Holland]

Well, that seems to be incredibly sensible.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, but that's Baldwin, you know, that's not even Chamberlain, you know, that's an even earlier sort of piece of prescience. And he says, you know, the RAF's terrified everyone with the prospect of bombers. In trying to get their own bombers, they've scared the shit out of everyone about enemy bombers. The bombers always get through because they know there's only so much money to go around. They've resisted having proper fighters. And it's the government that insists on ordering fighters because the RAF doesn't want them. The RAF wants bombers because they want attack weapons, not defensive weapons, which is what fighters are. They want an aggressive posture. Because Trenchard's whole thing is attack, not defence. I mean, you know, you've got to weigh this all with everything else, but he's just so interesting. If you view it all completely from a naval perspective, it all ends up looking quite different.

[James Holland]

Not bad.

[Al Murray]

He's also a long Second World War guy that, you know, it starts in 37 in China and ends in China in 49 with the end of the Chinese Civil War. He says the longest army confrontation is Japanese. Chinese military confrontation of the whole conflict.

[James Holland]

Yes, it is 12 years exactly.

[Al Murray]

And the Japanese spend a long time trying to keep the Americans out of it and then can't help themselves and draw the Americans in because they're running out of road. It's, after all, the last half or whatever. Depending on when you regard the Japanese, Wyoming started at least the last quarter of their war, rather than, you know, all of the American war. Anyway, it's just. Just looking at it from through this naval prism and looking at the. The British, because they win the war and win the First World War, there's all this demand to regulate the amount of shipping built because basically everyone wants to not have to build ships because they're really, really expensive. Everyone's trying to avoid it.

[James Holland]

So they sort of have a mutual pact not to build any.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, exactly. And the American Navy are able to sell that to Congress. The American. Just as long as the British aren't building battleships. Brilliant. That suits them because they hate the Royal Navy. And the Congress are great, great. We haven't got to spend money on European entanglements. It's just so fascinating, the sort of swirl of it all. And then the other great thing is how much he loves a swordfish, the string bag.

[James Holland]

Well, you know, Roland, our friend Roland White, he's. He's doing Taranto next.

[Al Murray]

Oh, brilliant.

[James Holland]

Yeah. And he's getting really, really into it in only a way that Roland can. So that's exciting. I mean, naval power clearly holds the key to the entire Second World War. I mean, if you. If you argue that the Atlantic, the war in the Atlant, the most important theater in the entire Second World War, then clearly it is. You're a naval man. And then just look at the Pacific, you know, impossible with that. None of the. None of the Allied offensives are possible without naval power. That's the truth of it.

[Al Murray]

Also, his stuff about the Pacific Fleet is absolutely fascinating, that they have to develop this fleet train thing, that they've got to come up with a way of a fleet, you know, keeping itself going.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

Without a proper base. How do you do it? In the 30s, they were looking to develop a fleet train method out of Singapore. And then, of course, they can't. And the real problem is where do you repair your ships? There's one dry dock in Sydney at the start of the war that's big enough to take a smaller battleship or a cruise or whatever, but they have to build another dry dock in Sydney and that's still thousands of miles from anywhere.

[James Holland]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, the distances are truly enormous.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Holland]

I was sort of thinking about this earlier on today, actually. The question was how much was, you know, did Hitler, his military ineptitude help us to win the war? It was like, yeah, he definitely did on one level. On the other hand, this. He was the idiot who kept saying, no, we can't surrender, even when clearly they weren't going to win. So it sort of cuts both ways. A whole kind of Hitler kind of advantage disadvantage debate. But Nelson King, could the Allies have won the war? You know, this is the thing. Could they have won by Christmas? Yeah, they could. The only thing that was holding them back was not enough assault shipping.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

You know, and if you think they've built, you know, was it 8,000, 713 assault craft between May 1942 and April 1943. That is their main concentrated effort, the Americans concentrated effort of building assault shipping. They are still making it, but they've then got to build more Liberty ships and they've got to build more warships and, you know, so the British, you know, so there just isn't enough. There's not enough because, yeah, you would have landed in the southern France at the same time as Overlord, you know, D Day, you know, you would have wrapped up Italy quicker because you could have easily outflanked it.

[Al Murray]

Well, and without the war in the Pacific, that, that's all completely possible.

[James Holland]

Without the war in the Pacific, you, you would just wrapped up Europe so much quicker and, you know, it would have been over by Christmas. So actually, everything about the Second World War hinges on naval power and shipping and supplies are shipping and how long it takes to get from A to B and how many assault craft you've got and how many landing ships you've got landing ships. The most important thing of all. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there's never enough. There's only. And, you know, even at the height of the Pacific War, there's only something like 148 landing ships. Sounds like a hell of a lot. And it is a hell of a lot on one level. On another level, it's just not enough.

[Al Murray]

It's just not enough.

[James Holland]

Yeah, what you want to do. And of course, the moment you get more you then your strategy then becomes more ambitious and you think, okay, well, we'll do this. Well do, we'll do the Philippines and we'll do Peleloo.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

You know, but as, as my friend Aaron Young is, is discovering, the whole point about Peleloo is to help the Philippines. You know, it's another staging post. You know, it absolutely is vital. Yeah.

[Al Murray]

Should we take a quick break and then. Well, just keep going because this is all great fun. We hope you're enjoying this conversation as much as we are. We'll see you in a second.

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[Al Murray]

Welcome back to we have ways of making you talk with me, Al Murray and James Holland. I almost forgot who it was. I was so much to say.

[James Holland]

Well, and I think it's fair to say that if we weren't talking about this on a recorded podcast, we would be in a pub talking about it.

[Al Murray]

That's abso. There's a really great little anecdote because Fraser obviously is running the British Pacific Fleet.

[James Holland]

Yeah, Bruce Fraser.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah. Bruce Fraser, who's such a dude and his whole thing. He says from a national point of view, it was of the utmost importance that the British fleet should engage in the most modern type of naval warfare yet evolved. And to do so by fighting in company with its originators and prime exponents. In no other way could we have learned the technical lessons which this type of warfare teaches. He's saying there's the stuff to learn that we have to learn as a navy. We can only learn on this job. And then he says, finally, from a point of view of national prestige, it's been of the utmost important that our dominion should see the British Navy engaged, if not in equal numbers, at least on equal footing, the American forces in the Pacific. And it would have been disastrous from this point of view if the British Pacific fleet, after being sent to the Pacific, had been relegated, as the Australians consider their own forces to have been relegated to a back area. It's really, really interesting political importance of.

[James Holland]

The being present at Okinawa at the end.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. And yet naval power is about to like, be degraded. And you kind of think of those images of the atomic bomb tests where those rings of old battleships being destroyed, you know, a Bikini Atoll or whatever, by the atomic bomb. That's like symbolic. I mean, it's not symbolic. It's literally happening in naval power being eclipsed by the atomic age. It's right there. Anyway, he tells a funny story as well about where they finally get their water distilling ship out to the Pacific. But the water distilling ship runs on coal, so it has to have a collier moored to it alongside it. And basically the collier supplies the distilling ship and the collier needs water. So they basically just feed each other and then no water, no water gets to anyone else, basically, because they, you know, they're adapting to a kind of warfare they just haven't. Haven't considered.

[James Holland]

That's just amazing. So wait, so is he arguing that, you know, naval power is redundant now? I mean, surely not.

[Al Murray]

No, it's sheer strategic importance of how you held the balance of power, which is what it was always for, is not disappeared, but has been relegated. Questions then become of Mutually Assured Destruction in terms of the security of the world. You know, all those relentless treaties, all that relentless bargaining. It's. I mean, in a way it's a lot like Strategic Arms Limitation Talks, but it's battleships. So when you can consider the difference, you know, in consequence of the battleships and how many cruise missiles you can have in Germany, it's just a completely different ballpark. The shift that the Atomic Age brings in that regard, in what strategic power is, how you can use it and all that sort of stuff. And it's the air. The air people have won. You know, you look at it now, you know, like Israel attacking Iran. It's the air power. It's, you know, obviously they can't. You can't send cruisers to Tehran, can you? Or battleships.

[James Holland]

No, no, no. And yet, of course, you know, the Duncan Sands white Paper, you know, relegated air power in favor of the navy.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, I know.

[James Holland]

You know, it's fascinating, but they're now having an air capability for. For nuclear weapons again, aren't they? That's what they're looking into, anyway.

[Al Murray]

Should we talk about July thereabouts in. In 1945? Why not?

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

J.R. has assembled us an excellent set of events and things to talk about. So it's the Battle of balik Papan on the 1st of July.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

Which is why we touched on the Aussies there that, you know, as Bruce Fazer saw it relegated to the backyard. Australian and a small force of Dutch troops make an amphibious landing a few miles north of Balik Papan in Borneo as part of Operation Oboe to liberate Dutch and British Borneo from Japanese forces.

[James Holland]

Amazing, isn't it? The Japanese still fighting on these highlands. I mean.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah, well. And that we're helping the Dutch Empire out, you know, these are the parts of the world that after the war, you end up with Japanese soldiers, don't you, working against nationalists, insurrectionists, whoever's trying to hang on to their independence post war.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

Very, very peculiar sort of twists in late 1945. Then you get good news for everyone in Germany. On 1 July, the inner German border is established as the boundary between the Western and Soviet occupations of Germany. And British forces formally withdraw from Magdeburg as it's part of the Soviet zone of occupation.

[James Holland]

Ever been to Magdeburg?

[Al Murray]

I have not been to Magdeburg, work. Have you?

[James Holland]

Yes, I. I have. And I remember buying a pair of Adidas running shorts from there, which, of course, being a German firm. So it was all entirely appropriate.

[Al Murray]

Absolutely. No, I've not known.

[James Holland]

It's where, of course, Hitler's remains were having been distant, tossed into the river. 70 were tossed into the. Not into the elbow, but a tribute of the elbow at Magdeburg.

[Al Murray]

I'll tell you what, after those. Those episodes, I had a couple of very, very entertaining crackpots telling me that there's one guy who was Saying, well, you know, he's, you know, Hitler's nephew, lived in New York State. So yeah, I saw that.

[James Holland]

I just thought, I just thought, res, don't get involved. Al's doing it.

[Al Murray]

And he said it's no coincidence he lived half away from a top secret nuclear research plant. And I just said to him where he lived and how far from that place doesn't put Hitler's brains back in his skull, mate.

[James Holland]

Honestly, how can people believe this? How can people believe it?

[Al Murray]

And he said that the Americans had especially rescued Hitler in return for the atom secrets he had given them.

[James Holland]

Right, Yeah. I mean, Hitler was many things, but an atomic scientist he was not. I think that's fairly safe to say. How can people just believe this nonsense?

[Al Murray]

Well, and then eventually what happens, he started going, you know, these are the narratives that are foisted on us in order to get us to think this, that and the other. And you're just waiting for him to blame it on the Jews, basically. You're just waiting, you know, why do you need Hitler to be alive? Why do you need him to be alive?

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

What does it demonstrate? Does it show that he was flawed? After all, if he, if he doesn't escape, you know what I mean?

[James Holland]

I literally don't understand why anyone would think it. But then I also, I don't understand why people would be against vaccines. I mean, you know, last time I checked, you know, infant paralysis from podio was checked by vaccines. So what's the big beef against vaccines? They seem great to me. Why would you feel the need to kind of believe in some crackpot theory which has no basis on anything?

[Al Murray]

I mean, answers on a postcard, please. I'm sure someone's gonna let us know.

[James Holland]

Anyway, back to Magdebur. Yeah, Anyway, so on the 3rd of July, James Jimmy Burns becomes USX GSA. Of course, he was one of the people who was absolutely shooing for being veep president, Vice president in. Nominated for vice president in July 191944 and then wasn't. Yes, and that was because of his slightly sort of fraught relationship with the South America.

[Al Murray]

He was a kind of dyspeptic guy, wasn't he? He quite capable of being quite vinegary, right?

[James Holland]

Yes, he was a bit vine, but he was also, he could also be very charming and he was also very clever. And actually he was quite. He wasn't. He didn't do a bad job as Secretary of State. It's just that Marshall was better.

[Al Murray]

Yes, it is interesting because, I mean, it's him that Frames the reply to the Japanese mokazatsu. You know, where he says, this is what we want Japan to do. Actually, it's his drafting that gives the Emperor the out. So he's no fool, sort of. In some ways he's. One of his problems is he's clever than everyone else and he sort of knows it. I think that's part of Jimmy Burns's character, isn't it?

[James Holland]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Also, what's going on on the moment? 4th of July, 500 Canadian troops riot in Aldershot. That's because of. They've been delayed in being sent home. But it might also just be because they're in Aldershot.

[Al Murray]

So Wednesday in Aldershot, that's what we're talking about here. I mean, those who know and love Aldershot will probably not raise an eyebrow at that at all. If you're a Canadian who came here in 1940, right. The war's over. It's a long, long time. The war's over. Right. You're thinking, you're looking at your watch, aren't you? And you're also anxious that you're not going to get sent to the Pacific, right? Sent to fight in Japan. The Americans accept a division of Canadian troops, don't they? Who are going to fight An American kit with American gear and American uniforms. MacArthur will only let Canadians fight if they're like Americans. Like the way the French do it, you know.

[James Holland]

Well, it's also good because, you know, when the photos are taken, you know, everyone can just see their Americans.

[Al Murray]

On the subject of which, on the 5th of July, Big Mac MacArthur, Douglas MacArthur announces the liberation of the Philippines.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

And it's the day of the general election, the first British general election in 10 years, which I think is, when you think of it like that, it's quite different, isn't it? It's. You could see after 10 years why you might get a swing against the status quo, whatever it was. Can't.

[James Holland]

You know, I was in up in Scotland last week and I was doing a thing with, with Andrew Maher about the wartime generation and he started talking about the khaki election and he was saying, you know, what you gotta remember is that, you know, Churchill was really unpopular with lots and lots of people. And I really want to say there was a church was probably. The Conservatives were unpopular.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

But I didn't really feel I could, I could weigh in a bit, but I didn't want to get into a kind of, you know, political ding dong with the former BBC Political correspondent and I. Well, it was just. It wasn't one of those. It wasn't one of those kind of events, really. John Curtin, the Australian pm, he dies in office and succeeded in the interim by far Frank Ford, but only for one week because Ford was then. He then lost a party leadership ballot. So he was the shortest serving PM in Australian history.

[Al Murray]

Liz Truss is an amateur, ladies and gentlemen, beaten by an Australian. How much she feel. Frank Ford there holding the record for a week. Yeah, I mean, this is one of the things, though, in Australian politics, because Curtin's been not well, towards the end of the war, there is a sort of lack of grip from the Australian government and they're feeling very, very bruised about essentially being sidelined by MacArthur and his plans for.

[James Holland]

Yeah, we put you up, we look after you, we give you tea every night.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And this is.

[Al Murray]

We don't want your soldiers.

[James Holland]

He just wants it to all be American, doesn't he?

[Al Murray]

Yeah. Then on July 7, good news for fans of rocket propelled gliders. Some of you may have watched our WW2 headquarters video about the ME 163 Comet. Well, the Japanese didn't want to miss out on the thrills and spills on offer to them of a glider powered by T stoff organic reactive material. It's the Mitsubishi J8.

[James Holland]

And to be fair, it looks exactly like a Comet.

[Al Murray]

Yes. It's basically the same thing, isn't it?

[James Holland]

It literally means autumn water.

[Al Murray]

Oh, that's nice.

[James Holland]

Or, because the words have different meanings in Japan, it can also mean sharp sword.

[Al Murray]

Oh, well, that's all right then. Phew. They turned that around, didn't they?

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. As you say, Jim, this is like. It looks the same. It is the same, really. They only build seven. They're offing their pilots anyway. But they don't need this to help.

[James Holland]

It's got a range of 2 minutes, 30 seconds of power on a range of 7 minutes.

[Al Murray]

I mean, the thing is, there's little enough meaningful Axis cooperation, isn't there? Particularly between Germany and Japan. You know, there is between Germany, Italy, but in a kind of like. Germans always think, oh, for Christ's sake, who have we got ourselves saddled with here? But there's very little meaningful stuff between Japan and Germany. But there's this, the odd technological exchange, isn't there? So there's this. Don't they ship a Tiger tank, essentially, to the Japanese?

[James Holland]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, something like that.

[Al Murray]

Or they try to.

[James Holland]

I mean, it's all very helpful because I'm sure Jack has gonna be in the position to make lots of Tiger tanks. I mean, holy moly. Anyway, so that, that has his first strike. Doesn't go very well for the pilot.

[Al Murray]

Oh God, no, no, I mean it's. This is just like the comic.

[James Holland]

It gets 13, 000ft, the engine stalls. Yeah. Pilot managed to glide it. Bad. But of course because it's made of hydrogen peroxide or what the feel. Hydrogen peroxide then catches fire as he crash lands and he dies the next day.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

So we'll just put it on hold until we can sort out and make some modifications.

[Al Murray]

Luckily the war ends. Luckily for everyone involved. On the other hand, the Japanese are still trying to prosecute things. Really? Really. Calagon. On the 7th of July, there's, you know, there's a. Another massacre. 600 to 1000 villages in Burma are murdered. I mean they dump their bodies in the local wells after they, you know, supposedly have helped British forces in the area.

[James Holland]

Area.

[Al Murray]

I mean again, it's. You've lost and you're still doing this, you know. Horrendous.

[James Holland]

Yeah. Then on the 8th of July, we've got the midnight massacre in Utah. I mean what a bizarre thing this is. So a century machine gun, sleeping German POWs in the camp. Nine die and 19 are wounded. And Private Clarence Bertucci isn't court martial but found mentally unbalanced and sent to a psychiatric hospital. When he was asked for his motivation, he said I hate Germans, so I have to kill Germans.

[Al Murray]

God.

[James Holland]

Okay. Yeah, it's quite extreme, isn't it?

[Al Murray]

Anyway, he's in the guard tower. It's his Browning and he's 30 caliber. And he brought brasses up the tents where they're sleeping.

[James Holland]

Bizarre, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely bizarre.

[Al Murray]

Horrible.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

And not something I'd heard of.

[James Holland]

No, me neither. Anyway, on that note. Yeah, well, Jim, that's all good fun, wasn't it?

[Al Murray]

Yeah, it's great fun. And there's much more to think about with the naval power stuff because.

[James Holland]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Al Murray]

It's kind of the other way around when you start looking at like that, the entire thing.

[James Holland]

Yeah, I think it's. Well, obviously once I've done my Arden book, I will be in full naval mode and saying very well.

[Al Murray]

It's the fact that US Navy doesn't want anyone in convoy for all that time.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

Germans have that happy time in the Caribbean. What on earth is going on there?

[James Holland]

What they won't allow.

[Al Murray]

They won't go for convoy. Why not? What's King's problem?

[James Holland]

Don't know.

[Al Murray]

Anyway, well, anyway, thanks everybody for listening. We would just like to say, by the way, a huge thank you to you for the recent loads more of you of you subscribing, loads more of you joining in the fun loads more of you coming to the Patreon and the Officer Class channel on Apple. And we'd just like to say thanks so much for being a part of this and being making this job not a job. And the sound of two people yakking the way we would if we were in a sat in a pub together or in a beer garden on a summer's afternoon.

[James Holland]

Yes, that's more like it, isn't it?

[Al Murray]

Yeah. So thank you so much because a podcast is like the tree falling in the forest. If there's no one there to hear it, does it make a sound? This podcast podcast makes a resounding noise of war waffle across the planet. So thanks all of you for joining us. Don't forget we do live casts on the Patreon where Jim and I get together and you can watch us in our offices as you can watch us chatting and talking, taking your questions, talking to other historians, talking to people we just want to chew the cud with. And of course, there's our festival. We have waysfest.co.uk look that up and realize that that is the best weekend you could ever possibly have because it's basically this, but with pints in an agreeable place and lots of dirty big green vehicles driving around. Anyway, thanks for listening. We'll see you soon. Cheerio.

[James Holland]

Cheeri out.