← WW2 Pod: We Have Ways of Making You Talk
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- [00:02]
Murray
Thank you for listening to we have ways of making you talk. Sign up to our Patreon to receive bonus content, live streams and our weekly newsletter with money off books and museum visits as well. Plus early access to all live show tickets. That's patreon.com we haveways.
- [00:25]
James
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- [01:21]
Jim
The McDonald's Snack Wrap is back. You brought it back. Ranch Snack Wrap. Spicy Snack wrap.
- [01:29]
Murray
You broke the Internet for a snack.
- [01:32]
Jim
Snack wrap is back. Burma had been conquered from the north, a feat never before accomplished in history and one worthy to rank with the most splendid of military achievements. The task laid upon Mountbatten and his allied commanders of all services had been discharged with greatly inferior resources than had been deemed necessary by the chiefs of staff and Mountbatten himself. Only a few months earlier. The frontiers of India were safe. The road to China had been opened and secured. Four fifths of Burma had been freed. The Shield of Japan's conquests in Southeast Asia had been banished. Scattered down the road to Singapore lay open. And that was from the campaign in Burma. One of the HMSO His Majesty's Stationary Office pamphlets prepared for Southeast Asia Command by the Central Office of Information.
- [02:35]
Murray
Welcome to we have ways of making you talk with me. I'm Murray. And James Holland. And Jim. So will they get Rangoon before the monsoon? Which I, you know.
- [02:45]
Jim
Sounds like a poem, doesn't it?
- [02:47]
Murray
Has a ring. What's quite clear is that Slim's army is firing on all cylinders, isn't it?
- [02:53]
Jim
And it's a honed machine now.
- [02:55]
Murray
Yeah. And you know, such a far cry from.
- [02:58]
Jim
Oh. Arakan, January 1943. Yeah.
- [03:01]
Murray
Yeah. Even two years previously, it's quite extraordinary. The turnaround and he doesn't stint in praising his subordinates.
- [03:08]
Jim
He never puts a praise on himself. You know, he makes it absolutely clear that he's his junior commanders, the men, you know, they deserve all the praise. And he says to watch a highly skilled, experienced and resolute commander controlling a hard fought battle to see not only a man triumphing over the highest mental and physical stress, but an artist producing his effects in the most complicated and difficult of the arts.
- [03:28]
Murray
And that's him talking about Punch Cowan. Of course, Slim is. Slim is very good at being modest, isn't he? And delivering praise down, isn't he? But he's also, you know, got to deal with the people above him. But, but this is operational art at its sort of most complex, isn't it?
- [03:43]
Jim
Well, yes, and perfected, I would say, you know, we can go. It was amazing what Patton did to get across the Rhine and the fact he's training beforehand and organizing all his boats and all the rest of it. Yeah, but you know, Patton Schman, compared to this, frankly, I mean this is of an entirely different order. The kind of make do and mend stuff, the kind of having to make 540 riverboats on, in situ on the Irrawaddy. I mean, you know, it's absolutely nuts. And of course it is, it is the marriage of the ground forces, logistics engineers with air power that really is the key to this. But it's also having the vision to understand how you can get air power to work with your ground forces in the first place. And that's the thing that he's honing back end of 1943 and into the beginning of 1944, win air superiority, own the airspace, get your guys on the ground to advance clear spaces in the jungle, create landing strips where Dakotas can land or Piper Cubs or whatever they are. You know, and this is making a huge difference. So you know, during extended capital operation. Extended capital, you know, the operation to take Mandalay and Meteller. Allied air forces are flying 7,000 sorties by day. And by April 1945, 90% of 14th army supplies are coming in by air. Yeah, you know, that's, that's, that's amazing. What I think is really, really interesting is there's always been this thing that Burma is just a British show, Americans aren't involved and all the rest of it. That's just to completely discount the huge contribution by the, by the United States on this. And you know, and even off of Wedemeyer has, has taken away 75 planes in December. You remember they, that they get most. You know, Mountbatten gets 50 of those back. Then Hap Arnold, who is the commander in Chief the U.S. army Air Force back in Washington, he then says, okay, I understand why this is so important. I'm going to give you a further 145 transports. So, you know, 75% of the 88 and a half thousand tons that reach 14th army during this operation just in March alone comes from the usaaf. You know that. That is a substantial contribution.
- [05:44]
Murray
And there's a large Chinese faction in this fighting under Stillwell and, you know, 14th Army. Let's any bones about this? We keep saying British. It's the Indian army.
- [05:53]
Jim
Yeah.
- [05:54]
Murray
And it's Indian and West African soldiers.
- [05:57]
Jim
And East African soldiers.
- [05:58]
Murray
And East African soldiers.
- [05:59]
Jim
And Gurkhas and Nepalese.
- [06:01]
Murray
Exactly. And in fact, 14th army is sort of. Is it 80% non British?
- [06:07]
Jim
Not in terms of fighting troops, but it is in terms of overall footfall.
- [06:11]
Murray
Well, but we're talking about the effect of overall footfall here, aren't we?
- [06:14]
Jim
Yes, we are.
- [06:15]
Murray
Without logistic business guys on the railway Stevadors, people loading and unloading, packing, moving, building rail, Wales building. Building roads. That is. Maybe it's not the sharp end, but. But it's. It's this completely pan Allied effort and in a British imperial effort is the truth.
- [06:32]
Jim
Yes, I. I would say in sort of fighting troops, it's probably about 35% British.
- [06:39]
Murray
Yeah. But they aren't able to do any of the fighting without all these other people contributing. And I think that's what's really interesting is this is coalition warfare.
- [06:46]
Jim
Yeah.
- [06:46]
Murray
In its purest essence, isn't it? You know, dealing with the Chinese means that there are political issues with the Chinese. I mean, still Wells men, Chinese troops are not ne affected by this in terms of their morale and their attitude. But there are political shenanigans going on, aren't there?
- [06:59]
Jim
Well, yes, because Chang is inserting all the Chinese troops that were in the ncac, they're withdrawn back into China and, you know, they're immediately flown out by the U.S. 10th Air Force. Well, that obviously means aircraft and all the rest of it. So, you know, Slim just goes straight to Mountbatten when he hears this kind of bypassing lease. And Mountbatten then appeals to Churchill, who then turns to Marshall, and Marshall agrees that the US transport should not be withdrawn until 1 June or the fall of Rangoon, whichever comes first. So that's that sorted out. But it's another kind of hassle. There's then a big spat between Chang and Mountbatten, who have kind of sort of completely fallen out as everyone falls out with Chang because he's such a total asshole.
- [07:35]
Murray
Yeah, well. And on an extremely sticky wicket, it does raise the question, what on earth is Lys doing with his time?
- [07:41]
Jim
Well, he's feeling redundant. This is a problem. And this is going to brew up trouble for later. You know, he wants to, you know, he's. He's got a massive ego. He's coming with a massive superiority chip. You know, oh, we'll show these sort of, you know, these backwater people to how we do things in the real theater of war over in, you know, the Mediterranean and Italy. I'll show them what to do. And he's kind of, you know, sorely disabused of that, but he doesn't have the wit or the humility to recognize that actually he's a step out of time and that actually his inverted commas, modern European fighting ways, are out of touch with what's going on in Southeast Asia. And he doesn't make any effort to try and get his head around that. And his ego won't allow him to kind of, you know, how can I help you? It's clear that you've got this under. Under wraps. He's just not that kind of person. And, you know, again, it just underlines what a sort of terrible decision it was. But, but anyway. But, I mean, you know, Slim's big problem is, is that casualties in the. In the. In the 14th army for the whole of extended capital have been comparatively slight. You know, 10,000 in total, which a vast number are disease again. But he only has five divisions because 56 division is still up. And in the Northeast, second British division needs a rest and being pulled out. And it's possible that even once they've kind of regrouped that the Japanese might have local superiority. So it's not a total slam dunk that they're going to just whip their way straight down to Rangoon and kind of overrun the whole of the country. You know, there's still quite a big challenge ahead. And, you know, it's really, really important to understand that, again, the distances involved, you're Talking about another 350 miles from Miktila to Rangoon. You know, that's a big distance in this landscape. This is all kind of quite challenging. And we all know that the Japanese don't like surrendering. So the idea that this is now going to be a cakewalk is not on anyone's mind. But it's interesting, I think to, to think about what the Japanese are doing because, you know, clearly their strategy is in complete r. The whole point was that they were supposed to hold the central part of Burma, but you know, they've lost that. And in three weeks of operations after the fall of Mandalay, Douglas Gracie's 20th Division have cleared 45 miles by 40 and hold a 50 mile stretch of the Rangoon Mandalay Railway with another couple of thousand of Japanese dead and another 50 guns gone. Which 50 guns doesn't sound very much, but it is in this theater. That's the point. The numbers that we're used to talking about Europe are not the same as they are here. And you know, early April, second division before they go back to India and 20th division kind of link up and now the whole of northern and central Burma is in allied hands. You know, Kimura's lost that battle for central Burma, but what he is thinking is, okay, let's move down to another defensive line and let's try and hold the Allies until the monsoon comes in early May. And you know, if we do that then, you know, then that might give us a chance to have some reinforcements and maybe we can counterattack and all that. I mean, it's delusional claptrap. I mean it's just bonkers. Reminds me of Kesselring sort of thinking, well, if we can just kick the Allies back into Se Anzio, then we can do a counter punch and push them back, you know, the Gustav Line and maybe we'll, we'll take all of Italy. I mean it is absolutely total fantasy. Kimura has used all his reserves in the M battle. All his remaining divisions are at half strength or less. Most of his motor transport's gone, most of his artillery's gone. So you know, he's still got his base troops and everything, but you know, he's not got much. So he, he orders the remnants of 15th army to head for Toungoo, which is 250 miles south of Mandalay and 125 miles north east of Rangoon. And the railway runs from kind of Mandalay down to Miktila, down to Tongu in a kind of roughly straight north south line. And then about 70 miles, 75 miles west of that, also running pretty much in a straight north to south line is Irrawaddy Valley. But the main rail link is not on the Irrawaddy Valley, it's kind of further east than that. And so right parallel with Toungu is Prom, and that is on the Irrawaddy. So you know, what he hopes to do is create a kind of defensive line that roughly runs parallel from the coast across the hill south of the Arakan to Prome, then across the Irrawaddy and across to the Taungu, you know, and he's assuming that these kind of main arteries, these main axis, these lines of communication are going to be the main defensive positions. And, you know, he's also got the 28th army, which has been in the Arakan battles, you know, again, also really badly hammered and under strength, but not as under strength as the Japanese 15th Army. So they're going to hold Prome and the Irrawaddy Valley, while The remnants of 15th army are told to hold Town Goo. And General Sakurai, who's the 28th army commander, you know, he's told to try and keep the Brits north of Prome, which will give a bit of time for 54th Division to withdraw from the southern Arakan, where they've been fighting British 15th Corps and 26th Indian Division. 24th Indian Division, 25th, rather, and the Commandos and so on. But for Slim, clearly the sights now are firmly on Rangoon. But he's got, you know, say, best.
- [12:37]
Murray
Part of 350 miles and the deadline of the monsoon. So just as Kimura's. So Kimura's relying on the monsoon to rescue him, and Slim is thinking, well, it might rescue the Japanese, right, I've got to get on with it, not give them the chance to solidify. Because everyone, this is the nature of the campaigning in Burma, is that you're sort of kind of put on hold a bit, you know, particularly as Slim is further and further and further into Berm and his supply lines are getting longer and longer and longer. The monsoon is going to generate far more friction the further he gets from India, essentially. So he doesn't want that to get in his way, does he? So he's got to crack on.
- [13:12]
Jim
Yeah, exactly.
- [13:13]
Murray
Slim's plan, as. Seeing as. As he sees it, time is running out.
- [13:17]
Jim
Yeah.
- [13:17]
Murray
Is to get Frank Messafee, who's four.
- [13:20]
Jim
Core commanders, great friend of the show.
- [13:22]
Murray
Great friend of the show. He's not wearing his pajamas on this occasion.
- [13:25]
Jim
Nobody is wearing a slouch, Captain.
- [13:26]
Murray
Fantastic. He's. He wants a strike. Slim wants him to use a strike force led by four corps, but also detach another back across the Irrawaddy to head south towards Prome. So, in other words, to divide what he's got and shuffle things around and crack on towards the railway line that goes to Rangoon. So all roads lead to Rangoon and you're going to have to seize them. The Japanese are using these roads, banking on these roads as defensive positions. It's going to rather feed them into what Slim has planned.
- [13:54]
Jim
Right, well, exactly. So you've basically got these two corridors, you've got the Irrawaddy Valley and they're completely. They're running north, south and they're parallel to one each other, separated by 75, 80 miles, something like that. On the western side, on the right hand side, where it was 4th Corps doing the right hook, it is now going to put Montagu Stomford's 33rd Corps going down the Irrawaddy Valley. Whereas now 4th Corps, which was on the right, is now going to be on the left going down Mictila Toungoo down the railway line route. That's basically how it's working. There's a bit of a sort of shuffle of Division. So Gracie's 20th Division stays in 33rd Corps, but they're now joined by the 7th Golden Arrow Division, 19th Division. Pete Reese, which was in, obviously in 33 Corps, is now in mess of his 4th Corps.
- [14:40]
Murray
Right.
- [14:40]
Jim
There's also a few little tensions between Stopford and Slim because it's now clear that Messervi's fourth Corps is, you know, is the vanguard for the drive on Rangoon. And earlier Slim had said, you know, stopped, you know, Monty, I think, you know, Rangoon's going to be yours, you know, and these things are quite important. And one of the reasons why there's this slight sort of tension between Slim and Stopford is because one of Stopford's staff appealed directly to Mountbatten that the Corps was being starved of supplies. And so Slim summons Stopford to Bagan for a bit of a dressing down. And Stopford says, look, this guy obviously knows has a direct in to Mount Baton. You know, this has nothing to do with me. And they're kind of, it's fine, you know, they smooth it over, you know, and frankly, in this incredibly testing time, despite all their successes, if that's the limit of the problems they've got, you know, they're not huge. So I think, you know, you can, you don't want to sort of overcook the disharmony. I think for the most part, 14th army is operating as an extremely well oiled machine.
- [15:36]
Murray
Yeah, well, and there's, there's disarmy to come at a higher level anyway. Yes, this level, it's ticking over nicely now. I think what's interesting here, though, because obviously Mountbatten's an amphibious combined operations specialist, isn't it? So he's going to want to land some people in some landing craft, isn't he? I mean, he's just. He's just it. He's a naval guy. He's itching for it. Right, okay.
- [15:54]
Jim
So there's two schools of thought on this. So there's a one school of thought which is that Mountbatten is a kind of sort of narcissistic prima donna. He's jealous of Slim. He doesn't want Slim getting all the glory and he's damned if it's going to be 14th army that's going to get to Rangoon. He's going to spoil it with an amphibious operation which will claim it. The alternative view is that actually Mountbatten and Slim have always got on very well and there is no evidence again to suggest that they haven't at any point, pretty much. And that Mountbatten is there as an amphibious opera, you know, combined operations, amphibious guy. That's the reason why he's sent to be supreme Allied Commander in the first place. And that if you can get to Rangoons as quickly as you possibly can with an amphibious operation, why wouldn't you do that? And I fall very much into the latter camp, I have to say.
- [16:36]
Murray
I couldn't tell that from your tone, Jim.
- [16:38]
Jim
Yeah, I know. You never know, would you? But historians are always so keen to kind of pick up on the disharmony and the discord. And, you know, there's a. There's a tremendously. Well, it's Frank McLinn who's a sort of. Of journo historian who wrote. He's written a book. He's written all sorts of very diverse things and including a history of history of Burma. But he's really got it in for Mountbatten. And it's so based on his own personal prejudice. It's just, you know, you can't take it seriously.
- [17:07]
Murray
Yes. A lot of this is, though, is people thrashing out what the best way of approaching things is. Right.
- [17:11]
Jim
It's not about who gets there first, it's about winning the war in Burma. Mountbatten's got amphibious operations. He's got 15 Corps which have been detached from 14th Corps who have won the battle in the Arakana, are now kind of sort of, you know, not really doing a huge amount. 14th army have had this tremendous battle and they're absolutely exhausted. And you. And you've got shipping and you've got landing craft, got air power. Why wouldn't you use that? You know, the point is to win the war as quickly as possible. So I refute the kind of. It's all Mountbattening a prima donna thing.
- [17:40]
Murray
Yeah, but, well, so what we're talking about is Operation Dracula we talked about previously, and the idea is to an amphibious landing that will land at Rangoon, and therefore you get there quicker, don't you? You're there instantly, aren't you?
- [17:52]
Jim
Sounds like a really good idea to me.
- [17:53]
Murray
You know, and Slim. Slim's in favor of this sort of, you know, because Dracula coordinated with. What he's doing is a far. Is a far better prospect, isn't it? And he's worried that Kimura is going to pat the city with suicide squads and hold out until the monsoon. So, you know, the more the merrier if you've got. And again, so much of the way things are being done in. In Burma. A hammer and anvil, isn't it? You. You make the Japanese the meat and the sandwich, to mix my metaphors, don't you? And this will do that. This will offer that.
- [18:19]
Jim
Yeah, exactly that.
- [18:20]
Murray
And obviously, once you've taken Rangoon from the British perspective, strategically, you can then go to Malaya more easily. You've cleared the coast and you set yourself up for that.
- [18:30]
Jim
Yes. And obviously what you want to do is you want to get. You. You want to clear as much of Burma of the Japanese as quickly as possible with the monsoon hovering over you. So I think the thing that is pressing Slim and his drive southwards is not that Mountbatten might take the glory for taking Rangoon. He is Supreme Allied Commander, after all, and why shouldn't he? Yeah, it's just to get as far as you possibly can before the rains come down, because then everyone will feel wretched and miserable and you're making your life even harder. You know, this is like Pe. Rhys driving on his. His infantry Brigadier. You know, you're exhausted now, but push on because that will save the rivers of blood tomorrow and the next week and the week after, you know, which they know because they've been through several monsoons since this war began. So I think that's what's really going on. But what's interesting about. About Dracula is originally there's a variety of it which is actually going to go into the island of Phuket in Malaya called Operation Roger. This is then, you know, they think actually, no, this is just overextended and it's not really going to achieve very much. Let's. Let's just consolidate in, you know, in. In Burma and Taking Rangoon. So Dracula was originally conceived, is kind of, sort of is revived and announced on 2 April that this is going to happen using 26th Indian Division, which has now been wrested from its Arakon operations, and the British second division volume, which had been obviously in 34 corps for the Battle for Mandalay.
- [19:45]
Murray
One peculiarity of Dracula is that Dracula is the nickname of Eric down, who's the airborne specialist who supplanted at 1st Airborne Division by Roy Urquart and who was sent east to prepare for this operation. And it's his nickname because he looks like a vampire.
- [20:00]
Jim
Fantastic.
- [20:01]
Murray
I love that. Is that a coincidence or is that why they've called?
- [20:03]
Jim
Well, because I think Dracula was visually put forward. No, it's only the summer of 1944, wasn't it?
- [20:07]
Murray
Yeah. Well, you know. And he's long gone from first Airborne by then. He's the man known as the most abrasive man in the British Army. That's his reputation, which, you know, as.
- [20:15]
Jim
We know, is quite a claim, really.
- [20:17]
Murray
That's quite a claim.
- [20:18]
Jim
Quite a lot of abrasive characters.
- [20:19]
Murray
But, I mean, one of the interesting things that also is going on at this point, Point, is it clear that the Japanese are losing. So some people are now picking a side, aren't they?
- [20:28]
Jim
Yeah, yeah. Including Aung San.
- [20:29]
Murray
Well, particularly on Sang, I think, and, you know, for later resonance, I think this is very interesting, isn't it? So Onsang and his Burma national army, in early January, they let it be known that they're thinking of changing sides. And this is via the SOE in an operation called Nation.
- [20:44]
Jim
British have learned, and they've learned from, obviously, the Jedburghs, they've learned from Italy and all the rest of it is that you don't want these irregulars running a mock and doing their own thing. You need to control them on a fairly tight leash. And, you know, and you. You can do that by sending liaison officers and saying, you know, we'll arm you and we'll equip you and we'll make sure you're all right, but you have to do what we say. So here are these people doing it. So. So they then set up an operation, an SOE operation codenamed Nation, which is to liaise with the Burma national army, the BNA and leaderships of other groups. And the first parachute dropped by the SOE is by an all Burma force under Tenpai Mint, which is dropped back on the 27th of January. And they report that urgent training is needed of the BNA troops. Well, no surprise there. Right. This is very much sort of part and parcel, you know, this is where experience in Europe really does count in a way that Oliver Lees experiences don't count.
- [21:36]
Murray
Yeah.
- [21:36]
Jim
And one of the people that's parachuted Into Burma on 20 March is Major Tom Carew, who I knew and was absolutely delightful friend and is the father of great mate of mine called Kegi Crew. He's also a writer.
- [21:46]
Murray
Yes.
- [21:47]
Jim
But he reports back that, you know, within a week he reckons that sort of BNA operations can start.
- [21:53]
Murray
Right.
- [21:53]
Jim
Slim recognized that Aung Sam might be a major headache after victory, but just does see the benefits. So. Yeah, he's coming from the cold.
- [22:01]
Murray
He's coming from the cold. Well, and you know, that's what I do in his situation.
- [22:06]
Jim
Yeah, yeah.
- [22:07]
Murray
You don't want to be on the receiving end of the British army at this point, do you? Or the Indian Army. And you want to be in on the liberation of Burma from the, from the Japanese, which is the political side of the, that you want to find yourself on. So what are the conditions like? I mean, it's pre monsoon, so you've storms, it's very, very humid. It' extreme heat. I went, I was in Cambodia pre monsoon last year and the weather's disgusting.
- [22:29]
Jim
Yeah.
- [22:30]
Murray
You know, and that's pretty much the same latitude. Sticky, really, really sticky. And then when it does rain, you're soaked in an instant and it's, it's oppressive and that obviously this kind of atmospheric tumult makes flying more difficult, doesn't it?
- [22:43]
Jim
Well, it does. And also if you suddenly got a waterlogged airstrip, you can't for all your bit hess, it's kind of not enough. And, and you know that then can affect supplies and, and that, that affects your speed. So, you know, these are challenges which are starting and you can see why this, this sense of urgency is everyone's tired. You know, Mandala, you know, big battles like Mandalay and Mictido, you know, they take it out of divisions and you know, it is still 17th Division and 5th Division and 7th Division, you know, they're doing the running. So 30 Corps, for example, is given instructions to carry out what Slim calls Union Jack sweep. So the idea is you have a sort of a big rectangular area on the map and you sweep down diagonally, you know, and then up and down the other side and, you know, a bit like the shape of a Union Jack. And so, so 20th Division and 7th Divisions are pushing southwards down the Irrawaddy Valley with these sweeps and you know, quite often meeting fanatical resistance. Then 36th Division, your great uncle, who.
- [23:37]
Murray
We'Ll come to in a later episode.
- [23:39]
Jim
Yeah, they're added to 30 Corps and also the British 2nd Division is brought back as well. So meanwhile, on the 30th of March, Punch Cowan starts moving south with his 17th Division. So that 63rd Brigade and 48th Brigade that we were talking about in the. In the McTeela battle, and their big aim is to kind of sort of, how are we going to get Piobwe, which is a significant town. It's where the battle of. Where the Japanese had their headquarters for the Battle of Miktila, for example, about 25 miles south of Miktila, something like that again, there's a railway line, the railway runs through there. So it's an important nodal point, it's an important hub. And Cowan does the classic pincher. He does basically a mini version of Mictila, a Mandalay. So he sends 48th Division straight down sort of south from Miktila, going down the main road, then there along the railway line. And he sends 63rd Brigade in a kind of wide arc with a battle group which is called Claude Col. Two squadrons of Probin's Horse, great friends of the show. Two squadrons of armored cars, one self propelled battery, they've got those now, two infantry battalions, you know, it is a classic Kampfgruper, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, that's exactly what that is.
- [24:44]
Murray
Yeah, exactly, yeah. And they, they roll on. So it's a sort of thunder run, isn't it?
- [24:48]
Jim
Yeah, well, the idea is to go in a sort of wide arc to the right and then sweep south of Purbui and then, then come up and attack from the south as 48th BR come attacking from the north. That's the plan.
- [24:58]
Murray
They go through a bunch of villages, so Yindor, and there's a thousand Japanese there. Yanang, Yadwan, Yoden. I can't. How do you pronounce it? Y Sedwin, which is south of Pyobi. And on the 9th of April, 48th Brigade, they take the airstrip north of Pyobi on the 8th. Yeah, I mean, they're rolling on, aren't they? By the 11th of April, it's like.
- [25:20]
Jim
10 days after the end of. End of the Battle of McTila.
- [25:22]
Murray
Yeah. Basically they've destroyed the remnants of the 50 Japanese, 53rd Division, who by this point all they have left is two anti tank guns, two battalion guns, 33 grenade throwers and a handful of machine Guns. It's kind of interesting, interesting this thing, because this is a, you know, Napoleonic war thing, isn't it? To say how many artillery pieces of the enemies you've seized as a way of showing how decisively you've won. And there's a, there's a flavor of that in this, isn't there?
- [25:42]
Jim
Yeah, there is a bit.
- [25:44]
Murray
Because it is a good measure of how deep the water the Japanese find themselves in now.
- [25:48]
Jim
But just think of this, Al these guys that, you know, when, when do they cross? They cross the night of the 14th, 15th, don't they? Do you remember seventh Indian division crosses, don't they? And 17th division punch. Can 17th div. Then follow through 17th, 18th, something like that, yes. Okay, that's right. So then they have until the end of February six weeks of fighting, getting to Meteela and then fighting in Mactila. Six weeks of combat. Every single day, you know, every day. Those two brigades, well, and 99th, 63rd, 48th, 99th Brigade are in battle and 63rd and 48th, every single day now they're fighting again. So they have basically been on the go non stop for two months. Months in Burma in these conditions with supplies, more supplies than the Japanese, but still not as many supplies as you'd want in an ideal situation. And they're still going, hats off to those guys. I mean, seriously.
- [26:39]
Murray
Well, and against an enemy that insists.
- [26:41]
Jim
On fighting to the death. Fighting to the death and giving no quarter. And none was given.
- [26:47]
Murray
So the Japanese 18th Division, they pull out of Purebuy because General Honda from 15th army, he's finally gone. All right, we do need to trade space for time. We've got to get out of here. We're being overwhelmed. But obviously there's vicious hand to hand fighting. You know, the hallmark of all of this, the Germans, Right. We've talked about why won't the Germans give up? Haven't we, in northwest Europe? But they do. It's the thing in the end, you.
- [27:10]
Jim
Can be a British soldier in Italy or in Europe and barely see a living German soldier, you know, that is possible to do that. It is not possible to do this for the Japanese. There is a point where a Japanese screaming at you will come charging at you at point some, at some point, you know, you just will see them.
- [27:26]
Murray
And if you want to read about that again with the George Madonna, Fraser really underlines that point.
- [27:30]
Jim
Yes. And his book covers all this period, by the way.
- [27:32]
Murray
Yeah. And he says something like, that guy running towards me with his sword didn't think that the war was over. Didn't think that he'd lost.
- [27:39]
Jim
Yeah.
- [27:39]
Murray
But by the time they've taken it, there's 2,000 Japanese dead in and around the town. And Slim says Fritz Size Purebuy was one of the most decisive battles of the Burma war. It shattered Honda's army, but it did more. It settled the fate of Rangoon.
- [27:56]
Jim
I just feel somehow we're doing him a disservice. There's nothing wrong with the, with the Brummy accent, by the way, Jim.
- [28:03]
Murray
He's so dazzling, Slim, in lots of ways that maybe, maybe this is our.
- [28:07]
Jim
Way of just taking him down a peg.
- [28:09]
Murray
Well, no, not having to look directly into the eyes of the sun, Jim. Yeah, yeah, maybe that's, maybe that's it making him human.
- [28:18]
Jim
But, but you know, these actions, you know these actions are just absolutely devastating the remnants of the Japanese 15th army who were already bad at the end of Mictila Mandalay. That's the point.
- [28:29]
Murray
Yeah, yeah, well, so by the 14th of April, which is as you pointed out, that's two months after they cross on the 14th of February, don't they? The first crossings on the 14th of February, 18th division is down to 3100 men. 49th division is down to 1600 and 53rd division down to 1600 as well.
- [28:45]
Jim
And when you add on the sort of, you know, backroom staff, that means the entire 15 army is 8,000 men, which is less than half the size of a normal division for an army. Yeah.
- [28:56]
Murray
At this point I would jack it in.
- [28:58]
Jim
Yeah, me too.
- [28:59]
Murray
But it's not an option, is it? I mean, what's amazing here is Slim has 312 miles to travel to Rangoon and he's got three weeks.
- [29:07]
Jim
Well, three weeks until Dracula.
- [29:09]
Murray
Yeah, until Dracula. But the thing is, is the way, the rate he's going, I think they, it must feel possible right. Now we've talked about growing confidence. We've talked about even though they, as you, as you pointed out, they are fighting in a difficult environment Right. Of the supply lines, they're very confident in what they can pull off with this tempo of operations.
- [29:26]
Jim
Yeah.
- [29:26]
Murray
So Slim Urge's 5th Division who are spearheading four cores advance to head for SHU.
- [29:32]
Jim
Yeah. 5th Division have now taken over from 17th Division from Punch.
- [29:35]
Murray
Yeah. Because they're doing this leapfrogging thing. That's part of how they've been doing stuff. And they get to Sho on 16 April before Japanese suicide squads are dug in. But I mean, amazing. By nightfall, the four course Vanguard are 240 miles from Rangoon. It's incredible. Yeah, right. We need to take a quick break as we race to Rangoon.
- [29:56]
Jim
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Murray
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Jim
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James
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- [30:57]
Jim
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- [31:31]
Murray
Welcome back to we have Ways of Making youg Talk. Will we get to Rangoon before Dracula?
- [31:37]
Jim
Yeah. And then the next town they come to is Pien Mana, which is bypassed because it's quite heavily defended. And you know, there's an airfield at lua, which is 10 miles further south. And that's, that's quickly taken. And this is really important because it means that fifth Division can now be resupplied by air. So, you know, it's a classic thing. You know, this is all about airfields. And then the next dash is, is to Taugu, you know, which is where the Japanese Kimura intends to make his stand. But they want to get there. They want to hustle the Japanese before they can prepare the defenses and also yet again, seize the airfield that's there and then that can bring them to within range of Rangoon. So Slim is now told the Dragon is definitely going to Be be launched on 2 May without any kind of, you know, it's set in stone now. Which means that the four core now have 11 days to travel 200 miles if they're going to sort of get there first and get there ahead of 15 core who are going to be spearheading the Dracula operation. So Slim now launches the. The Karen gorillas on the Japanese as they're falling back to towngoo ahead of 4th Corps arrival, arrival.
- [32:33]
Murray
The Japanese driving hard through the night down jungle roads to Tongu ran into ambush after ambush. Bridges were blown ahead of them, their foraging parties massacred, their sentries stalked, their staff cars shot up.
- [32:44]
Jim
You get this sense of chaos, don't you? This is an, you know, a Japanese army that is absolutely run ragged. That, that is, you know, shorter supplies, short of food, short of ammunition, no morale and frankly just needs to. It is cruel, inhumane, insane to keep them fighting, fighting. You know, we've said this a number of times, you know, why do people surrender in a battle? You know, in, in medieval times or, or even more recent times? They do so because they haven't got enough supplies and they're not going to win. Yeah, this isn't the case here. There is this sort of maniacal win. If only we can just hold a line before the one scene, it all will be okay. No, it won't. You know, just throw in the tower. But they don't, of course.
- [33:21]
Murray
I mean, they're compromised on the front, they're compromised in their rear.
- [33:24]
Jim
They're totally. Yeah.
- [33:25]
Murray
You know, and also Slim is entirely inside their decision loop, inside their thinking. And you know, he's thinking two steps ahead and they're five steps behind at all times. So fifth, if they, they get into tango on the 22nd of April, having covered 50 miles in three days.
- [33:40]
Jim
Yes. And the reason they're able to do this is, you know, because of Japanese are so screwed anyway and because they've been ravaged by the current guerrillas on the way down, they're never able to make the stand that they're supposed to be making at town. Good. They just can't do it, you know, so.
- [33:52]
Murray
So they're now 160 miles from Rangoon and it's 10 days before Dracula. And if they're doing 50 miles in three days, this is. It's tantalizingly close. This is it.
- [34:00]
Jim
Yeah, but it would. The odds would suggest they're not going to quite do it.
- [34:03]
Murray
Yeah, well, yeah, but let's see, they're.
- [34:05]
Jim
Running out of time on the fifth day to win the test match.
- [34:09]
Murray
They received surrender. The Surrender First Division of Bose's INA. 150 officers and 3,000 men. So that's. The Indian national army are over. They're cooked.
- [34:18]
Jim
Just explain to me why Sumas Chandra Bose is still so fated, why there's an international airport named after him in Kolkata.
- [34:23]
Murray
Well, because.
- [34:24]
Jim
Because they did absolutely nothing and they all surrendered.
- [34:26]
Murray
Everything changes after. After the end of the war. It's politics, Jim. Everything can suddenly go into a mirror version of itself in an instant. And, you know, leaving the British behind and redefining India in its own image and that, that's how I know. You know, you like to frustum russom about this. I'm kind of relaxed about it really.
- [34:43]
Jim
I just can't wait. Just annoys me.
- [34:46]
Murray
So on the 24th of April, 5th Division have clocked up another 20 miles. But they're. I mean, this is the thing though, this kind of momentum, this kind of tempo.
- [34:53]
Jim
They.
- [34:54]
Murray
They're knackered by this point. They're exhausted. The thing is, this kind of tempo, everyone ends up worn out. The gear starts to, you know.
- [35:00]
Jim
Yeah.
- [35:00]
Murray
Things start to break down.
- [35:01]
Jim
Yeah.
- [35:02]
Murray
You know, and there are 140 miles from Rangoon and they've got seven days to go. Are they going to make it? Feels like they're running out of steam. 17th Division now leapfrogging again.
- [35:11]
Jim
There's now, then they're now in the lead once again for the first time since Puabui.
- [35:15]
Murray
Yeah. And they reach Daiku on the 26th of April. They're 80 miles.
- [35:18]
Jim
Come on, guys, you can do it.
- [35:20]
Murray
Yeah. But here's the interesting thing. Finally the penny is beginning to drop for General Kimura.
- [35:25]
Jim
Crikey.
- [35:26]
Murray
Well, I suppose. Is he so afraid of his superiors of delivering bad news?
- [35:30]
Jim
Is it that they're just all kind of so into it, aren't they? They're just sort of. It's a bit like Kesseling in his oath, Hitler, isn't it? It's the same sort of thing.
- [35:36]
Murray
Yeah. Yeah. They're opting for death rather than dishonor, aren't they?
- [35:39]
Jim
Yeah. There is no car, Wolf.
- [35:42]
Murray
No, there's not. There's no one.
- [35:44]
Jim
No one. Reaching out to the Allies and circling back of an early peace opportunity.
- [35:48]
Murray
That's right. Beetling backwards and forwards between Ceylon and Rangoon. He's decided there's no point defending Rangoon. It's impossible. So we'll make a last ditch down.
- [35:56]
Jim
At Pagu, which is north of Rangoon.
- [35:58]
Murray
Yeah. And hold on until the monsoon Breaks so hold them off. Rangoon, that's pretty much ideal, isn't it, for Slim in this situation? And so 17th Division, they press on this minefields and suicide squads and more than 500 dead on the.
- [36:13]
Jim
This is another road of bones, you know, this is like the one leading out of Imphal. Yeah, they're dying because of disease and malnutrition and starvation and you know, it's just horrific. Absolutely horrific. And they have business pretty stiff opposition north of Pegu. But then they reach the town at nightfall on the 27th of April. And this is a town which is on both sides of the. Of the Pegu River Defenders. Either side, you know, they're making a bit of a stand here. There is now a difficult choice because, you know, you can either have rations or you can have arms. You know, there's only so much amount of supplies that can be brought forward. So. So Slim thinks, well, you know, just got to get on with it. So we're going to have to put the men on quarter rations. Not half rations, quarter rations. So he goes up to the front and, and to try and sort of g the men up and he speaks to one gunner and he says, I'm sorry you've got to do all this on half rations, rations. And the gunner says, don't you worry about that, sir.
- [37:03]
Murray
Put us on quarter rations, but give us the ammo and we'll get you into Rangoon. I mean, this is a heartily related tale, isn't it?
- [37:09]
Jim
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. The marvelous spirit of 14th Army.
- [37:13]
Murray
Exactly. The gunners obviously thinking, well, if we get the Rangoon, this might stop. Yeah, and then we'll be all right.
- [37:17]
Jim
What he he didn't say was what he's muttering under his breath. Once Uncle Bill had walked away.
- [37:22]
Murray
Exactly.
- [37:23]
Jim
Oh, God, here we go again. What is a fag and a cup of tea?
- [37:26]
Murray
Pegu, the Japanese is filled it with mines and booby traps and it's cleared on the 2nd of May y just as the monsoon hits.
- [37:34]
Jim
Literally the rain starts coming down that day.
- [37:36]
Murray
Yeah, that's the. The day when Dracula's launched, of course. But Rangoon has been abandoned and isn't there the story of the airplane flying over Rangoon and the on the roof of one of the buildings smart people have put Japs gone get finger extract digit.
- [37:50]
Jim
Yeah, exactly that.
- [37:51]
Murray
Yeah. And Rangoon has been abandoned. Slim says on the evening of the second, when news of the successful landing south of Rangoon and the Japanese evacuation have been been received, 17th Division was halted in drenching rain. 41 miles by road from its goal. So Kimura hadn't succeeded in stopping Slim get to Rangoon first by fighting at Pegu, but he's been destroyed, completely destroyed in the process.
- [38:14]
Jim
So what? It doesn't really matter.
- [38:15]
Murray
Well, places don't matter. It's destroying the enemy that matters.
- [38:19]
Jim
Exactly that.
- [38:20]
Murray
The Japanese used to understand that.
- [38:22]
Jim
Yeah.
- [38:22]
Murray
But along the way they've forgotten it. There's a. Meanwhile, there is their gym, 33 core.
- [38:26]
Jim
You know, Stopford's 33 core. Been doing a great job clearing the Iradi Valley, you know, having a really tough time. I mean, plenty of Japanese defenses there. Definitely monsoon hampers up the final mop, you know, mopping up operations. But, you know, there's still huge fights at Alamo and Karma, which is near Prome, between the 11th and the 15th of May. So, you know, you've got this little pocket again. What are the. What are the Japanese doing, You know. And afterwards, 33 Corps, they find another 1400 Japanese dead. And the killing continues throughout May and on into June and July because those clearing up operations slow down inevitably with the monsoon and with tracks getting turning into mud and the rain going on. But, you know, between in that time till, you know, the end of July, a further 11,500 Japanese are killed in action. And just 96 Anglo Indians in that time.
- [39:14]
Murray
Yeah.
- [39:14]
Jim
And on 28 July, 28,000 Japanese troops of the 28th army begin the long march into Siam, having broken out of the Sitang river valley and actually quite a skillful operation, it has to be said. And during that operation, 14,5 kill another.
- [39:29]
Murray
12,000 troops for the cost of 95 of their own men killed.
- [39:34]
Jim
It's just, it's, it's, you know, you know, they have been utterly destroyed.
- [39:38]
Murray
Yeah.
- [39:38]
Jim
You know, really reduced to kind of 10,000, you know, 15,000 men. That's all that's left of the Burma armor area.
- [39:45]
Murray
The Sitang river bend battle has shades of fillets, but without them escape, escaping.
- [39:50]
Jim
Well, again, you know, it gives me kind of hope for the future because I think, you know, be fun to do. Be interesting to do an episode or two just on that alone. And any one of the, you know, the Battle of is an epic, which we've told in very kind of brief terms here, just because this is, you know, we're trying to give a big overview. But, you know, so many of these battles deserve a proper reappreciation. In fact, actually, I'm very keen to get myself over there. So I think once we've got over there, then we could be much better placed to.
- [40:15]
Murray
Francis Tuka's involved in the core commander by then. Yeah, put up to core level. Yeah. Now here's the thing though. Obviously we've talked about how, you know, Slim is so dazzling we dare not look him in the eye. This isn't really what's going on at the time at all, is it?
- [40:31]
Jim
It's just the scale of this victory both at Imphal and now here at Mandalaya McTeela. You know, it's. Obviously it's written about back home and people talk about this stuff, but. But I don't think people really appreciate just how difficult it's been. What an amazing piece of generalship this has been. The, the vision, the foresight, the coordination, the make do and mend the fighting skill, the wherewithal to understand how you need to adapt your tactics for the different locations within Burma. The building up of morale, the control of malaria, the whole picture, the 360° in the round. This is why Slim is considered the greatest fighting general of the Second World War and arguably, you know, Britain has ever had. You know, it is absolutely remarkable, you know, and you would have absolutely thought that having brought off one of the greatest military achievements ever, let alone the current war, you know, that Slim would immediately be fated, lionized, you know, kind of put on the highest of pedestals. But it's not what happens. I mean, and what we're about to relay to you makes me feel sick to my core.
- [41:31]
Murray
It's an absolutely amazing story.
- [41:34]
Jim
It's a total freaking shower and I'm ashamed of this. And needless to say, this is Lisa's doing. Not a friend of the show, I think it's fair to say so. Lisa's been feeling increasingly cut out of the loop. And on 3rd of May, so the day after Rangoon Falls, Lease visits Mountbatten in Kandy in Salon. Anyway, Manbatten's not on peak form. He's just been recovering from, from dysentery. And Lee says, gosh, you know, I mean, Bill's done a terrific job, but you know, he's been in the job a long time now. He must be absolutely exhausted. And I wonder whether, you know, maybe it's time for his work is done. Let's get a new army commander in and give Bill a bit of a rest. And you know, I've been thinking that maybe Philip Christensen at 15 Corps, the man to oversee the, you know, maybe Slim can oversee the post war administration of Burma. Mountbatten says, well, I don't really think so. I Kind of want, I want Bill Slim staying where he is. But you know, I don't mind you carefully suggesting this to Slim if you want to sound him out. But Lees, because he's such a numbskull, flies over to sees this as green light. And he then does something even more unforgivable. He flies straight to Akiab for first because it's on the coast, rather than going to see Slim first. And he meets up with Christison and he says, right, you know, Bill stepping down. You know, he's very tired. He's had a long time doing this. He's had this great victory. But it's time for some from fresh Rock, you know, and I want you to command 14th Army. And Christensen, who gets on very, very well. Slim says, oh, terrific. Well, you know, sure. I mean, you know, if Bill's fine with that, that's great. Lees then thinks, well, I'm, you know, yes, because we're going to set up another army which is going to be the occupying army of Burma and we'll call this 12th army while 14th Army P down on into Malaya and all the rest of it. And so he says to Christensen that slim's already left 14th army, but he hasn't, he hasn't even spoken to Slim about this. So from Akia, because it goes, you know, geographically, it goes Ceylon, Candy Ceylon in Sri Lanka, to Akyab, the Bay of Bengal, then to Miktina, where Slim's now got his TAC hq, Slim thinks, oh, great, you know, Lee is coming, bring me some congrats. And Lee says, before we talk of anything else, I must tell you that, but I've decided to give Christensen command of the 14th Army. I don't consider you capable of planning large scale amphibious operations. So I don't think it'd be fair to either 14th army or yourself to leave you in charge of it, you know. And Slim's resolute jaw kind of hits the floor. It's like, yeah, wtf?
- [44:05]
Murray
Yeah, well, although in person he sort of says, well, he says no, he rejects it.
- [44:10]
Jim
Well, he rejects the offer of 12th Army.
- [44:12]
Murray
Yeah, with a sort of straight bat, doesn't he? To Lisa's face. So off camera he's like, oh God, here we go again. I've dealt with this before because after all, he's had that whole business where no, Irwin 43, after the failure of the Arakan campaign, basically tries to say, wasn't me, it was Slim who did this and tries to get pin it on Slim. So Slim's with His staff is sort of saying, don't worry, I've dealt with this before. But he must have been absolutely apoplectic.
- [44:37]
Jim
Yeah, and it's clear he is. He absolutely is. And he knows this is jealousy, this is, you know, lease being crass, you know, he knows this is politics and not performance. Lee then casually signals to boss Brook, chief of the Imperial General Staff. He just says, was he Alan Brook by this point?
- [44:53]
Murray
I think he's Alan Brook by this point, anyway.
- [44:56]
Jim
So he signals to Brook and says that he's replaced Slim. Brook is just absolutely gobsmacked, you know.
- [45:02]
Murray
Well, Jim, Jim, let's not forget the timing here. This is VE Day, around the end of the war in Europe, where Brook's thinking everything's going absolutely brilliantly, we've defeated Germany the last thing he wants, and.
- [45:13]
Jim
Then this total numskull has just gone. Wrecked everything.
- [45:16]
Murray
Yeah, exactly.
- [45:18]
Jim
Another headache to sort out just at the point I don't need. So on 9 May, Slim tells his senior staff he'd been sacked. And then the news leaks out to the other ranks and of course, you know, they're incandescent about this for obvious reasons. Mountbatten, of course, is also outraged, you know, and he's feeling, thinking, crikey, okay, I wasn't quite on the ball when I was speaking to Lee, so I should have been a bit more clear about this. And on the 14th of May, Brook sends the bluntest of signals to Lees with a really severe reformand telling him that this is absolutely beyond his remit. How dare he do something like this? And also coincidentally, the orc Auchinleck is in London at the time, who's Commander in Chief of India. And he is also dumbfounded. And on the 20th of May, Auchinlecht tells Churchill that Slim is the finest general in Southeast Asia and recommends him as his successor is the cnc. And the long and short of it is the Lease is sacked. Hooray. Instead, and Slim takes his job. He becomes CNC of Allied Forces Southeast Asia. And the tragedy for Christensen, who has done a fantastic very well remedied, he's left high and dry because he's been tarnished. And stopford is given 14th army and Dempsey is given 12th army.
- [46:24]
Murray
A terrible business, isn't it?
- [46:26]
Jim
And that is, that's a sort of sour note on the end of the Burma campaign. But the great thing is that history's forgotten it. Slim's reputation just grew and grew and grew afterwards. So much so that it's now, you know, he's one of the three people to have a statue outside Ministry of Defense alongside Monty and Brooke. You know, he is widely considered now one of the very greatest generals ever in British history. Yeah, and frankly it's hard to argue with that. You know, it's, it's is an astonishing turnaround from where they are, where they were. The vision that he has, the way he coordinates it, gels it persuades, you know, coerces, gets the best subordinates, reconfigures 14th army and turns it into this war winning machine. I think is just testimony to that all rounder vision that he's got as the master battlefield commander, the master of the strategic aim, the operational art and the tactical pizzazz. You know, it is the plaudits, the accolades of him are entirely justified. It's an astonishing achievement and the flexibility.
- [47:30]
Murray
Of the Indian army to turn itself from, you know, basically a colonial police force in 1939 to take on millions of volunteers that expand at vast rate to get through its setbacks. I mean this is, is often the story in the war that I think is the bit that leaves me. You know, it's, it's D Day for four years after Dunkirk. This, that, this is, we're talking about two years after the Arakan offensive. That an organization. And yes, it's because of its leadership, but the fact it can generate leaders that can do this and then generate people who can work with a leader with this kind of vision and drive and ability. These are extraordinary organizations. And you know, there's a lot of talk now, isn't there, of resilience is a word that's being banded around a sort of buzzword in defense chat. The Indian army's resilience in the face of the defeat in Burma, in the opening stages of the war in, you know, most organizations would go, well we, well that's us done. We can't, we've got, we've got nothing but the fact that they're able to turn themselves around. And yes, obviously having the staff and the industrial base to be able to do it, but it's the people, the brains and the application I think is, is truly remarkable. Remarkable and across the world as well because, because this, after all this is, this is the junior theater. So I mean of the, you know, the three theaters, Northwest Europe, Mediterranean and this is that this is the, the junior. And yet they've still got the people and the resilience and the intellectual firepower. Because a lot of it comes down to that, to turn this around.
- [48:57]
Jim
Don't, don't underestimate the fact that this is a multinational force. A multinational managing and organizing and bringing together and gelling a multinational force is, is much harder than a single nation force, obviously. So you have that challenge as well. There's several books that we should recommend. I would recommend Louis Allen's magisterial book Burma the Longest War. It's hard work. We've read it so that you don't have to. But, but if you do want to read it, that is the kind of the big authority. There's also the four official histories of the war against Japan. I think they are in a sort of paperback reprint version these days, but you can still buy the original originals on AB Books. A War of Empires by Rob Lyman. We've talked about this a lot. It's excellent. I would also recommend Defeat Into Victory by Slim, which is really good. There's various memoirs, of course. The standout is, is George McDonald Fraser's, which is exactly this period. But I've got to say I found this, these twin series we've done on the Burma campaign, you know, from from the middle of 1943 right through to the middle of 1945 is two years of war in Southeast Asia, in Burma. I found it absolutely fascinating and I am totally in aw every single person that fought in this campaign and what they achieved. And you know, and, and, and I think we should also. There should be a nod to the Japanese because while the, the commanders were obviously cruel, you know, hundreds of thousands of Japanese troops were, were, were, were flung to the lions in the cruelest possible way. And what they had to endure was out of all proportion to the hardships faced by 14th army and XV Corps, which is same saying something, frankly.
- [50:34]
Murray
Yeah.
- [50:34]
Jim
And it's a horror story. And it's also a horror story that in a country that is so beautiful and so, so lovely, that was so ravished by war and it still is ravaged to this day, you know, and many of the problems that, that emerge from the end of empire, the end of this war, the con, you know, this brief conquest by Japan, they're still being felt to this day. Yeah, that's Burma now. Myanmar's tragedy. But gosh, what a fascinating story this is.
- [50:58]
Murray
Well, thanks, Jim. We have one more episode for you in this series to follow which is about the forgotten bit of. The forgotten bit. The forgotten forgotten bit. What it's like in a wartime county battalion, the 10th clusters. I'm sure you've all subscribed to the Apple Officer Class channel by now, if only to avoid the advert reads. That we have to do. Maybe you're in a hurry and you want to get through these episodes quicker. Maybe you want to digest them all in one giant lump. I don't know. But that's one solution to that problem. Or maybe you want to subscribe to our Patreon livecasts every other Monday ticket offers, that sort of thing. Exclusive stuff with we have Ways Fest in particular, which is the 12th, 14th September. We don't like to do the hard sell on this podcast, but here it is anyway. That's we havewaysfest.co.uk we will see you there, we hope. Certainly. I've run into a lot of people in the last couple of weeks who I've managed to sort of persuade. They really want to come. Thanks for listening, everybody. Thanks, Jim. Cheerio, everyone.
- [51:48]
Jim
Cheerio.