← WW2 Pod: We Have Ways of Making You Talk
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Thank you for listening to we have ways of making you talk. Sign up to our Patreon to receive bonus content, live streams and our weekly newsletter with money off books and museum visits as well. Plus early access to all live show tickets. That's patreon.com we haveways.
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This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast Smart move Being financially savv Smart move Another smart move having State Farm help you create a competitive price when you choose to bundle home and auto bundling. Just another way to save with a personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state. This episode is brought to you by Jack Daniels Jack Daniels and music are.
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Made for each other.
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They share a rhythm in the craft of making something timeless while being a.
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Part of of legendary nights.
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From backyard jams to sold out arenas, there's a song in every toast. Please drink responsibly. Responsibility.org, jack Daniels and old number seven are registered trademarks. Tennessee Whiskey 40% alcohol by volume Jack Daniel Distillery Lynchburg, Tennessee this episode is brought to you by Lifelock. It's Cybersecurity Awareness Month and Lifelock has tips to protect your identity. Use strong passwords, set up multi factor authentication, report phishing and update the software on your devices and for comprehensive identity protection. Let Lifelock alert you to suspicious uses of your personal information. Lifelock also fixes identity theft, guaranteed or your money back. Stay smart, safe and protected with a 30 day free trial@lifelock.com Podcasts Terms apply.
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Partisan Brigade Stella Rossa Headquarters Order of the Day Number one Comrades of the Stellarossa the national government has granted to patriots the definition of soldiers of the regular Army. I say this to you. This is not enough for us men of the sr. We must show that we are the first and best soldiers of the new army in a new democratic Italy. But we must be worthy of our position now more than ever. We must give tangible proof of our faith, our capabilities and our worth. We are about to enter into a crucial phase of our fight. Now that the hated Hun, beaten on every front by the glorious allied troops, has been driven back into its den by our bayonets awaiting extermination. Now that the servile fascists cling with criminal desperation to their sinking ship of despotism, our job is to shear off their blunted talons. As from midnight of 25th May, we are condemned to death. Today we must grit our teeth once and for all and demonstrate that the execution forces never existed, that the only men who were ever going to die were the Nazi fascists, and that if death ever, ever claims us, it will only be on the battlefield, face to face with the enemy. Our brigade has already overcome tough trials with recognition and praise. More strife awaits us, perhaps even more bitter strife. And I am sure that, reinforced by our past successes, we will overcome any future difficulty. It is therefore necessary now more than ever that each and every one of us observes and adheres to the regulations that I have often repeated and am again reiterating. Furthermore, I hereby transform those regulations into precise orders to be observed indiscriminately by everyone. 1. Utmost discipline to be observed in even the most minor daily routines. Absolute subordination to your superiors, who will gain strength from your trust and esteem and thus be able better to face the responsibilities and duties of their rank. 3. Comradeship, which shall not only be borne because of the necessities of communal life, but shall be felt down to the smallest detail and shown above all in an ambience of reciprocal support. Thus united as never before, we will concentrate on the last bulwarks to destroy them and earn for ourselves the future of peace and honest toil which we all strive for. Comrades of the sr, on the eve of our last battles and sacrifices, I wish you good luck. Let us always remember that Italy is still divided and that everyone is watching us with admiration and trusting hope. Great things are expected of us. We must not disappoint our dead. Wish it. The Commander of the brigade, Major Mario May 1944. Well, welcome to. We have ways of making you talk with me, Al Murray and James Holland. The Second World War podcast of choice, of course. And this is our two part series that we've called Death in the Mountains. Isn't it, Gemma? What are we talking about today?
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Well, we are talking about partisan activities in Northern Italy. And we're talking about the biggest single civilian massacre in Western Europe outside of the camps. It wasn't Orador, it wasn't the DICI. It was Montessori at the end of September 1944. And it's a subject which I have been living with for the past 25 years and a subject in which I've gone into in enormous detail. I've walked that ground many, many times. I've written a novel based on it. I've written a film script based on it. It's one that is very, very close to my heart. I met A number of the people that were involved. And it's just the most astonishing story. It's. It's. It, you know. Warning. I think you're all right in episode one. Episode two is quite grim, it has to be said, but people ought to know about this. You know, this was terrible. Things were happening in Italy as the Allied forces were kind of heading their way north. And it's very easy to just assume it was just the battle lines. Terrific battle was going on behind. There were lots and lots of partisan bands sort of emerging, but for me, there is only one, and that's the Stella Rossa. These guys were total dudes. A major Mario was Mario Musalesi, whose nom de guerre, who's actually. His nickname from childhood was Lupo, which means wolf. And he's an incredibly alluring and charismatic character. And more about him later on as we go through. But it's a stunning part of the world. I mean, really. I mean, it's just amazing.
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What happens in Italy, though, is essentially once the Fascist government has collapsed and then a new puppet Fascist government is installed at Salo under Mussolini, you essentially have a vacuum, don't you? An anarchic vacuum that develops with the Germans under great pressure from the Allies, of course, this feeling that the war is going to tip into victory. No one quite knows when it's to end. There are scores to settle, very much implied in that communique. There are lines to be drawn for the future Italy to come, and that essentially a kind of state of civil war exists in the. In the enemy rear, as it were, in Italy.
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B
Absolutely. And what we're going to do in this first episode is we're going to look at the. At a bit of the background of this. We'll look at the bit of the background of the politics of what's going on in northern Italy, the kind of sort of split between what control the Italians have, what control the Germans have, which is, frankly, is 99% of it, and the rise of the partisan bands in general. But we're going to specifically look at this band, Estella Rossa, as a kind of an example. They are exceptional for a number of reasons, which will become clear. And they're operating in the mountains about 15 miles south of Bologna, incredibly beautiful part of the Apennines. It's not really on the tourist trail because it's not in Tuscany. And these are our communities that have been going on for centuries and centuries and centuries. A bit like San Pietro, south of Cassino, which suddenly, over a course of a couple of days is just wiped clean forever. Anyway, let's start with one of these characters that joins the. I thought it'd be interesting to start with Carlo Venturi, who was a guy I met. I met him with two other partisans, including one of them called Gastoni Scargi and the other guy was called Hector. I never quite got his surname. But anyway, we met in Gastoni Scargi's office at Bologna fc. It's just absolutely amazing, really. And we met in their office to talk to them all in turn. Then Carlos sent me his, his manuscript of his book he'd written some years before, sort of the time was unpublished. Then we went off for lunch and had a big long lunch and at the end of it they gave me a pair of boxing gloves and a bottle of limoncello. Just absolutely amazing. I mean these guys are all absolute dudes and these are. All three of them were survivors of the Stella Rosso. But to go to Carlo. So Carlo was only 18 in the spring of 1944. He lived in the tiny little village, mountain village of Fondazza, southwest of Bologna. And in May 1944 he received his call up papers as one of the class of 25, 1925, eligible for service. And we will get onto this in a minute, I promise you. Family of Contadini and Contadini are sharecroppers. So a contadino is a sharecropper farmer. Contadini are multiple farmers. And basically what they would do is they would grow their crops for the padrone. You know, the, the, the overseer was usually a sort of absentee landlord. Absentee landlord would have agents, agents would come around and go hand over you half your profits. That's how it worked. And it's incredibly feudal, but that is how the vast majority of farming was, was played out in, in Italy at that time they were interested in politics at all. They were neither pro fascist nor anti fascist. They just couldn't care, you know. And to be honest, in these little rural communities, fascism had a much, you know, a much more tenuous hold than it did in the cities for obvious reasons. These places are quite remote. And you know, and Carlo told me, he said, you know, my father just didn't want to get involved. He just wanted to kind of keep his head down. And he doesn't have a tessera, which is the Nazi, the fascist card, which, which everyone had to have because he's a contadino. So he doesn't need one. You need one if you're in public office of any kind. But you don't if you're a farmer, Carlo on the hand was, you know, he's. He's 18, he's young, he's a bright kid. He really resents the fact that there's still fighting. Resents deeply that the Germans are now occupying Italy. He's a very proud young Italian and he works in a factory and in Casalecchio Dureno, which is in the Reno Valley. And with a couple of friends at one point they start talking, they get, oh, let's do something. So they attack an abandoned army barracks. Those of you who listen to the earlier Italy series will remember that the armistice was signed on 8th September 1943. And then the Germans just swept in and cleared out all the Italian army armed forces and all the barracks and so on. A lot of them being cleared out by the Germans, but some of them are just sort of, you know, it's all a bit kind of. This is. This is. We're talking about October 1943, so. So they haven't all been cleared out. There's quite a lot of, you know, there's a hiatus, there's a bit of confusion. So they go in there and they break in and they kind of nick some rifles and stuff and. And they have a sort of vague notion of fighting back, but they don't really know what to do with any of it. So they basically just hide them in Carlos attic because he lives in the countryside, so it's sort of, you know, it's safer. But he's soon in trouble and one day he's on his way to Bologna and the tram he's on is stopped and GNR are the fascist militia. Come on. And he's hauled off and accused of having a hand grenade in his pocket, you know, but it's just a bread roll. It is literally just a bread roll. It's a bread roll. It isn't a hand grenade. So he's taken to jail and then he's beaten up, you know, because these guys are just throwing their weight around, you know, that's what's going on. And he said, you know, from that time on, I told myself I had to make them pay. You know, they're kind of like, you know, I'm not going to put up with this. He's a young, proud guy. He wants to kind of.
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I bet he didn't get the bread roll back either. They'll have eaten it.
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Yeah, right in front of him.
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Exactly.
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Anyway, later, he's then arrested again and taken. And he's taken to the GNR barracks and he's accused of harboring arms. And it turns out he's been turned in by the. By the fascist who lives on the house on the hill above him, above his family. So Carlo manages to convince them he's. He's innocent. They get rid of the arms before they get raided. But at the same time, it's time for him to report to duty because he's been drafted. And at this point, he has a start choice, you know, sign on the dotted line or take to the hills. And he thinks, well, you know, I don't really fancy that, to be honest. So on the 16th of May, without telling his parents, without telling any of his family, because it wouldn't be safe to do, so he just leaves. He just walks out of the house one day. They have no idea what's happened to him, don't know where he is. And he heads to Sasso Marconi, which is like a small little town, and it's a. Just. The river Reina goes down, or is it set? I can't remember which one it is. Flows into Bologna and it forks around some mountain chains, so it's like a sort of triangular thing. And on the western side is the river Reno, and on the eastern side is the Setter. And Sasso Marconi is where is where the first radios were built, is at this confluence where. Where the two rivers meet. And he spots four young men sitting by the side of the road. They just don't look like fascists. But he's not sure. He doesn't know what to say, you know, because. Which way do you go? It's kind of, you know, they're wearing civvies and stuff. He goes, they go, go, where are you going? He goes, oz, looking for you. And they go, what do you mean and what are you doing here? He has to have this leap of faith where he just goes, I'm looking to join the partisans. But if he got that wrong, but he hasn't, he's got it right, so it's okay, they are partisans. And they take him to a house above the Seta Valley, and they go, right, you're staying with us tonight. And the next day they pick up someone else. And then they head up into the mountains. And this is the mountains of the Monte Soli massif. And they take him to a place called Cabrigeda. Cap is a peculiarity to that part of Emilia Romana. And Ka means is shorter for Casa, his house. So they're up there the following morning, and the sun is rising and towering above him, he can see, you know, the heights of Monte Salvare and Montessoli, which gives the name to the chain of mountains. At that point, you know, you can see little settlements up in the. Up in the mountains and little villages. And a lot of the hills are covered with woods with little sort of baby oaks, Quercia, as they're known, and chestnuts and hazels. It's quite sort of dense, but there are fields and there's little villages and, you know, little spas of churches and stuff. So there's quite so mountain settlement up there. And now he's among partisans, and he sees men carrying rifles and Sten guns and stuff, and they're all kind of looking at him quite suspiciously. I mean, just imagine being him. You're 18, you've left home, you haven't told your parents. Suddenly you're in it. You're. You're sinking or swimming, aren't you? I mean, it's just very brave. I mean, it's just incredible. And as he was telling it, I mean, you know, I was sort of feeling quite. Because even if you do become a partisan and they accept you, you've now signed up to a. To a life from which there is no escape until liberation comes. You know, you can't. You can't suddenly walk out and being a partisan.
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A
Yeah, it's not like joining the Italian army and throwing your rifle in the river and going home, is it? It's quite different. Different commitment.
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Anyway, so second man who's. Who's joined the day after him is. Is then ordered to dig a pit. Carlos. Sonny thinks, oh, my God, I can see what's going to happen. So does the new guy suddenly tweaks what's. What's about to happen, so he runs for it. And as he runs for it, you know, someone opens fire with a stun gun, cuts him down, they chuck him in the pit and bury him. And Carlo's just sort of like, oh, my God. And they go, that guy was a spy. He was a fascist spy. And then they turn to him and he's just thinking, you know, he's absolutely cacking himself. And he says, but I'm not like that. I've stolen weapons. I've done this, I've done that. And they go, okay, well, you know, we're going to check you out. We can't afford to have spies here, so we're going to check out your story. Anyway, so for three days, he's kept up in the mountains under God. He doesn't know what to do. And then suddenly some guys come in and they go, right, we're going to take you to see our leader. And this is Mario Mousalesi, the author of that amazing pamphlet that you read out at the beginning, that kind of order of the day thing, known as Lupo. He's in his late 20s, he's like 28, 29 at this point. Lupo, sort of dark haired, thin faced, very charismatic, very sort of unhairy, he's not a hirsute man. And Lupo shakes his hand and says, yeah, no, we've checked you out, you're. You're kosher. It's good. They then take him to see Gianni Rossi, who's a smaller guy, who's the second in command. He's sat there with his kind of like, he's got like a receding hair, but he's like a squat face. And he sort of like, absolutely. You just wouldn't cross Johnny Rossi at all, you know, Mario Musalesi. Lupo is much more kind of open, obviously warm. Janny is kind of sort of brooding. Carlo is given a Sten gun, five magazines assigned to a company led by Gulfieri. They all have nom de guerre, and he's given a nom de guerre, which is Ming. And this is after a character in a comic called Laventuroso. All means of his idea taken off him, everything. He's sworn not to make contact with his family on pain of death, you know, a harsh necessity. And they're like, you're now one of us, you've crossed that threshold.
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A
So he's a member of the Stellarosso that, that's Red Star, right? Are these guys communists, they Marxists?
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B
No, they are absolutely not. And this is one of the great ironies of it, is they are one of the very, very few partisans, if not the only partisan band which is apolitical and maintains its apolitical status right to the very end. Lupo is having non. He wants people of all persuasions. He says, this is not a time for politics, this is a time for beating the Nazi fascists. Then we can sort out politics afterwards.
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But you'd be forgiven for thinking with that name that they might be you.
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Absolutely would you? Absolutely would. They maybe didn't think that one through.
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Very carefully because after all, you know, this is the great tangle of contention for the Allies is which ones to pick. And, you know, the Western Allies often, which part is Amban, you know, this is a big problem for them in France, after all, is who do we back? And afterwards who are we going to trust? And if you're called the Red Star Rossa, you know, they might go cool on you.
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B
Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's one of the great ironies. But they absolutely weren't. But anyway, you know, Carlo said to me, he said, you know, there were three crystal clear choices. Either go with the fascists, the Germans, or choose to fight with the partisans. As a young man, those were your three choices. And failure to report to duty off the call up was punishable by death. And actually it was quite rare that you'd be, you know, they don't want to kill the people they're trying to recruit. But it did happen. And word of these executions spread, of course, pretty rapidly. So many do exactly what Carlo's done and flee to the hills and the mountains of which there are a plentiful amount in Italy. And, and where you are, you're not safe, but you're safer than staying at home waiting to be, be called up. So, you know, he is now a fully fledged member of the Stader Rossa as of, you know, the end, end of May, which is about the same time that Lupo was writing that missive. But I think it's worth just sort of explaining to people about the German occupation really. Yeah, maybe we should do a little bit of that.
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A
Well, yes, because that's what it is. There is an occupation. It's from being allies, close ideological pals and all that. It's quite the opposite. Well, and we also know, you know, it's a thing we talked about a lot, what the Germans tend to think of their allies, that they're just to be exploited. So now the Italians are not their allies anymore, essentially their enemy.
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B
Well, yeah, let's face it, they don't exactly treat their allies particularly well.
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A
Well, that's it. That's what, that's, that's the point I'm making. So the ambassador is doctor, Dr. Rudolf Rahn. He says everything in occupied Italy must be exploited by us for our war effort. So they take Italian gold reserves, they're denied any economic or trade policy of their own. The north's factories are turned over to Speer. As the Allies advance, they shut down factories or blow plant up, which is after all the, you know, what Hitler's proposing for Germany at the end of the war. Italians are also then expected to pay for all German related war costs. So having taken the Italian gold and denuded Italian Italy of its means production, they've also got to then pay for.
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B
Everything that's Sheriff of Nottingham stuff Isn't it? I mean, don't you think?
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A
Yeah. And By May of 1944, the Republic is handing over 10 billion lira a month, which is 3 million pounds today. But basically they have no money and they're being ran, they're being ransacked, they're having their pockets turned out. If you're an Italian, you thought that, you know, the previous September, we've surrendered, we've, we're out of the war, it's over. This must be very dismaying. And there are.
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B
However, it's not, it's not.
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A
There isn't an end to the war. There's German troops everywhere. The country's big stripped bare. And absolutely every infringement is punishable by death. Because the Germans, they're not mucking about.
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And don't you forget it. I mean, so these notices are literally everywhere. And there are not infrequently dangling civilians from street lamps and all the rest of it. I mean, you know, they're left up there, they're hanged publicly and then left. It's all properly medieval stuff.
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Yeah. There's also this 10 for 1 policy that Kesselringer set up after the attack on the Vieira cellar in Rome on 23rd March 1944, which is in your casino book, where basically the Germans will round up civilians. Well, we'll round up anyone. If they can't find partisans, then what they'll do Is they'll kill 10 for every German killed. Hitler wanted 50 for one, but Kesselring is the voice of calm moderation about this and says, you know, that's just going too far.
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B
He's such a vile man.
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A
I mean, it's staggering. Yeah, well, as well as ransacking the country, they're taking its people, aren't they, Jim?
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B
They are. So you've got all the ex armed forces, they've been sent to Germany. So that's about 750,000 Italians. And they're now under, you know, they're operating under, under forced labor under, under Fritz sauckel. So by May 1944, there's seven and a half million foreign workers in, in Germany. Quite a number, isn't it? And then Italian men are also recruited to the organization Todd. So people who are not of kind of service age. So this would be over 40s, you know, late 30s onwards, 50 year olds, they're all taken in and recruited into the organization Todd, which is the kind of, you know, the labor force. So these are the people that are building the Gothic line and doing manual labor and so on. And they're all rounded up quite freque, you know, exactly the same way that the Royal Navy was doing press gangs in the late 18th century, for example. Exactly the same. There's no difference whatsoever. But the key thing is that Mussolini has persuaded Hitler to allow him to recruit some troops. You know, no one in it, none of the Germans wanted this to happen. But Hitler always maintained this sort of weird affection for Mussolini and so gives in and he's not allowed an army, but he's allowed to raise four divisions. Since, you know, all these ex forces were now in Germany, these had to be recruited from the younger generations of Italians. So for the classes of 1923, 1924 and 1925, plus 12,000 former officers and NTOs are released from, from Germany to go back and help set this up. And Carlo Venturi is one of those, you know, that is why he's being recruited. The initial conscription raises 50,000 men very quickly by May 1944. But then the numbers drop really, really dramatically. Why? Because it's summer. Why? Because the Allies are winning, they've taken Rome. And so everyone's thinking, oh, I don't want to be on the losing side and I don't really mind being in the mountains in summer, doesn't sound so great in winter. But there's a whole host of different reasons why that figure is. But no one's interested anymore. I mean, you know, there are still people who want to be fascists and stuff. By and large, the wind is sort of starting to change. What is really interesting though is that the, they're also recruiting for the SS police battalions under Carl Wolf, of course, and they have 200,000 Italians join those, you know, so four times as many. And there is also the fascist militia.
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A
Is the pay good? I mean, what's.
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B
Well, it's better than being a partisan. Yeah, you get pay. You know, if you're a partisan, you are outlaw, you are outside the law, you are, you are cast out of society, so you have nothing. Whereas if you're in the GNR or in the SS police battalion, you've got barracks, you've got three square meals a day, you've got, you know, blah, blah, blah, you know, you've got a pay packet and ditto with the gnr. Gnr. So the SS tends to attract people who are just sort of thinking, well, I just need to look after number one. The GNR are people who are fascist, you know, are right wing and of sort of think, no, I think the fascist way is a good way. And these are basically replacements for the old sort of squadristi. And the GNR is the. Well, we'll get onto that in a minute. But, you know, if you don't fancy any of this, then the only alternative is to become an outlaw. And obviously, as I was saying, you know, in the summer of 1944, May, late spring, May 1944, you've got summer ahead of you. Rome is captured. You know, the Allies are on the march. You know, you've got to weigh up a whole host of different factors here, but the odds are slightly more in your favour in summer than they are in winter. With the Allies on the march.
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A
Yeah. It's fascinating the idea though, that there's something for more motivated people than the ss. The GNR is sort of actually for the people who are into the politics, whereas the SS is kind of like there's three square mils a day. How people make this choice. Because after all, there's a spike in recruitment in the Middle east, isn't there, after D day that in France you get a similar thing where people move to the fascist end of the political spectrum one way or another. And as you pointed out, there are lots of reasons young men join organizations when they're pushed to do.
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B
Yeah, I think the other thing is, I think the GNR is more localized. You know, you'd have the carabinieri, which is a sort of military wing of the, of the police, but it's basically the police. Then you have the gnr, which is the militia, but you would have those dotted in all the towns. You know, there would be a GNR barracks in every town, as it would be a Carabinieri, the SS battalion. You wouldn't. So if you were joining the ss, you might be sent to the Alps, you might be sent all over, you could be anywhere. And so you're taken away from your homestead. Whereas in the, if you stayed in the GNR, you would still probably be, you know, like within 10 miles of your birthplace. So that's also a factor. You need to be with your mama and your papa and, you know, well.
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A
Or, or your dad's a member or your brother's a member and you say you've got, you know, you've got to toe the line. There's this, all these push and pull things. And as Allied victory gets closer, you're really thinking, wow, which one do I choose?
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B
Well, yeah, and the family. The father might be, I don't know, like he might have a job that's dependent on his Tesla, you know, his fascist Cards, which they still have at this time. And so he's thinking, well, I don't. If you run off the hills, then we're not going to have anything. These are really not straightforward choices at all at a time where the news and information about actually what is happening is incredibly sparse. You know, at the end of the day it's a punt. But it's worth just mentioning about the rsi, which is the Republica Sociale d'. Italiano. And this is the Neo Fascist, the new Fascist government, a puppet government based in Sal, which is a tiny town on Lake Garda, not Rome. Mussolini is the figurehead, but he is a much denuded figure since his overthrow the previous July. He sprung from prison by Otto Skorzeny and his thugs in the Gran Sasso in a few days after the invasion of Italy. But anyway, he's allowed to reform his Fascist militia under Renato Ricci, who was the former head of his squadristi, of which are the Blackshirt hit squads, the infamous hit squads of militia of the sort of 1930s and 20s. And it's now renamed the Guadalupe Guarda Nazionale Republicana, which is the gnr. And this is run alongside the Carabinieri. And the Fascist party is up again and up and running, but now is not led by Mussolini, it's led by Alessandro Pavolini, who is an intellectual and former magazine editor from Florence. Very good looking, dashing chap. Touch of the Oswald Mosley about him. And he is the head of the Partito Republicano Fescista, the prf. But the real control day to day is under Karl Wulf, who obviously we've talked about a lot this year, who is the Ober Gruppenfuhrer and highest police officer in Italy. And basically he's running the show. So the idea is that Castlering is the. Is the military commander, Wolf is, deals with everything else. So gnr, Republican policing, the Carabinieri, the day to day operations of the countries, all run by Wolf, not by Mussolini. So, you know, is it any surprise they're running to the mountains?
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A
So we're going to take a quick break and then we're going to get into the birth of the Stellarossa, the probably poorly named Red Star. We'll see you in a tick.
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B
And Doug, here we have the Limu.
- [26:34]
A
Emu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating.
- [26:43]
B
It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug.
- [26:47]
A
Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us.
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B
Cut the camera.
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A
They see us.
- [26:51]
B
Only pay for what you need@libertymutual.com Liberty Liberty Liberty Savings Ferry Unwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates excludes Massachusetts the holidays have arrived at the Home.
- [27:02]
A
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Run, you're a runner, however you choose to do it.
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A
Because when you're not worried about doing.
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B
Things the right way.
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A
You'Re free to discover your way. And that's what running is all about. Run your way@newbalance.com running welcome back to we have Ways of Making youg Talk with me, Al Murray and James Holland. And we're talking about, well, the Italian Resistance. It's interesting, isn't it, Jim, because the French Resistance is synonymous with the Second World War. Right?
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B
Right.
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A
Our ideas of it, our popular conception of it, how it sits in people's imagination. The Italian partisans, less so even the words you would call the Italians partisans, wouldn't you, where you talk about the French Resistance, that there's a kind of. In people's imaginings. I think there's a kind of difference in the vocabulary. The further east you go, the more partisans, they're partisans than they are resisters, you know what I mean?
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B
I think that's absolutely right. I mean, obviously the Italian campaign is just not as well known as the war in Northwest Europe and the war and the war in France and Normandy and so on. So, you know, British female SOE types aren't sent to Italy as well, which, you know, helps in the narrative, I think.
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A
Yeah.
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B
But it's basically because the Italian campaign is less well known, which is why no one's heard of the Massacre of Montessori, for example. It's incredible really, because they play a huge part. The anpi, which is the Association Nationale Partisans d' Italia, is a very big deal, or certainly was a very, very big deal in Italy. You know, every town would have its AMPI headquarters office and you'd go there and these guys were mates for life. And it was a very, very sort of, you know, deep run thing, but just less so outside of the, outside of Italy, I suppose. Should we talk about the Stellarossa and how they came to.
- [29:29]
A
Yes, there are partisans popping up all over Italy. But I think here's an actual organized group. What are their origins, Jim?
- [29:36]
B
So I should just tell you about the amazing meeting I had with Gianni Rossi. So I went. So this all came about because in 2004, there was a. I read an article in Times. President Rao of Germany, as he then was the president of Germany, had gone over to Marzaboto, which was the town nearest Montessori, and had publicly apologized for what had happened. And there was a story there, and they. They'd interviewed some people who'd witnessed the massacre. And, you know, there were horrendous stories. And I remember thinking to myself, God, I don't know. I don't know anything about this. Why don't I know about this? And this was a seed for a book I wrote called Italy Sorrow. Well, north of Rome, basically, and the last year of the war there and the Gothic line and all the rest of it. But all the books about the Italian campaign were about the Italian campaign, the military campaign, rather than, you know, the fact that the were 44 million Italians stuck in the middle of all this, you know, and what were they doing? And I had no idea about this huge partisan activity and fascists and GNR and all the rest of the terrible choices one had to make. And you know, how it ripped apart kind of a lot of Italian society in the process was this civil war. So I was determined to go over there. Now I went over to Montessori and met lots of people and interviewed lots of survivors and veterans and members of the state of Rossa, including Carlo Venturi and Gastoni Scargi. But I really went. But when I was talking to one of them, they said, oh, no, no, Johnny Ross is still at. I was like, oh, wow, where do I find him? They said, well, listen, he loves going for a beer every morning in the. In the. In the bar in Gardaletta. Go down to Gardaletta and you'll find him there. They'll. They'll know. So I went down to Gardaletta and you know, Johnny Rossi here he goes, oh, no, no, he doesn't live here anymore. If you go to Vardo, just up the road, just go to Vardo and like the first roundabout, you'll see a little bar. He's always in there. Johnny loves that bar. He's always in there. So we went to the next bar and went, oh, no, no, no, no, he doesn't live here anymore. He's just moved on. But if you go. If you go out here, you just Go around the corner, there's a little roundabout, turn right up there, you'll see a bar on the right, right? That's where he always goes. He loves that. Janny just loves that bar. So into the third bar and the barman said, you've just missed him. He's. He just came in for his morning coffee, but he's gone back. But he'll be back. I said, well, look, you know, I've come all the way from England to see him, you know. Do you think you could just tell me where it is? He goes, well, I don't suppose he'd mind. So he gave me his address and I knocked on the door and the kind of eventually sort of shuffling of feet and he opened the door and there he was, there was Gianni Rossi. And I said, I'm really sorry to bother you. I know this is completely out of the blue, but I've come all the way from England. I'd really love to talk to you about your time. The Stella Rossa looked me up and down and went, come back at 2. So we went back to the bar and said, look, you know. He said, yes, but, you know, do you think there's something we could get him to kind of, you know, sweeten the whole thing and, you know, to him. And he said, well, he loves smoking, right? So we bought him. We bought him a big, you know, like 10 packs of fags and went back at 2, sat in his front room and this just incredible story came out. I mean, he was quite sort of reserved to start off with, but kind of warm to his theme a bit. It was just amazing. There he still lives in the shadow of Montesquieu solely after all these years. You know, it's just incredible. So. So Janny, he told me all about his life and his growing up and all rest. And he came from a family of anti fascists. I mean, lots of people were just comsy com son. But he wasn't, you know, his father absolutely refused to join the party, never had a tessera. So. So getting work was really difficult for him. Every time there was a. They lived in Vardo. Every time there was a fascist dignitary coming, Rossi senior would be picked up by the carabinieri and put in jail for a couple of days. But his father had been a decorated veteran of the First World War, but was not a FAS Fascist. And actually they. They lived in Gardeleta, which is just right on the banks of the River Seta. So on the eastern side of the mountain chain. You remember it forks as Reno and the Seta. They're on the Seta side, Gardeleta's little, tiny little village on the banks. They're just south of Varda. Varda is like a small, small town of maybe, you know, 5,000 or something. Gardaletta is a kind of village of maybe a few hundred. Anyway, Jan is born in February 1923. He's an apprentice mechanic in Bologna. And then he's drafted in the war and joins the navy. But in the summer of 1943 he's in ill, so he's convalescing back at home when the armistice comes. So which is why he's not put in the bag or picked up by the Germans. And during this time he meets up with Mario Musalesi, who he's known as a boy, and Mario is quite a few years older than him. You know, Mario Mussolesi was always known as Lupo, even, even as a boy. And he's this tall, stringy guy. But he's also there because he's been in North Africa. He was drafted into the, into the army, served in, in North Africa, was captured by the British, managed to escape, got picked up, then got wounded in the Tunisia campaign and was inval back home, which is why he's again also avoided being put in the bag. And also from an anti fascist family. But he's very smart, very charismatic. He's one of these people that sort of draws people to him. And he's popular and well liked and well known because he's gobby and he's approached by the fascists after the armistice and eventually become a civil servant for the rsi. But he just goes, absolutely no way. He's a, you know, thinks fascism is completely dead. Strongly, strongly opposes German occupation. And so he's sort of, you know, both of them are kind of sort of lumbering around wondering when they're going to get drafted and picked up and thinking what their choices are. And there's two events, two key events that push them towards resistance. And the first one is suddenly there's a whole load of anti fascist posters get put up in Vardo. And Lupo is blamed for these because he's been so vehemently against being recruited. They think, well, it must be him. He's the only guy who'd have the nerve to do this. Anyway, he's been denounced by someone, so he finds that the guy's denounced and beats him to a pulp and then is arrested. But he's released, you know, after a couple of days. But he's marked. You are clearly an agitator. You know, we're watching you, son, that kind of thing. And then the second thing is that Lupo moves back to the family home at Cavaneziani, which is hamlet just close to Gardaletta. And it's right on the river Setter, but it's on the side of the railway line, which is on the western side of the river Setter. And so the mountains come right down and then you've got the railway line, then you've got the river. It's all quite tight around there. You know, there's not much of a mover. And obviously the river, the river bends. And so the railway line bends around the curves of the river as well. And when it goes this river, this is just a single track line and the trains have to slow down quite a lot. And they are watching, they see this train come along and are watching when they see five Allied POWs jump from the train.
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A
Gosh.
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B
And one of them is injured as he jumps and is picked up again. Another one shot and killed. But three get away. And Lupo and Janny spontaneously decide they're going to help them. And one of them's a Jock, a Scott, rather, who inevitably gets called Jock. And the other two are South Africans called Steve and Hermes. And they stay with the Stellarossa right to the very end.
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A
Wow.
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B
They're. They're right from the word go and right, they're founder members of the Stader Rossa. Effectively, they hide them in barns in the mountains. At this point, Lupo and Gianni decide to go underground permanently. And that's around November. Well, October. November 1943. And they kick off by raiding a local GNR barracks, because they all have them as a GNR barracks in Vardo, for example. And as Janny said, he said, we didn't have much of a plan. We borrowed a lorry, raided one of the barracks, took a stash of rifles and ammunition, and then it's like, got it. Now, now what do we do with it? Well, let's hide it in a barn up in the mountains, sort of see how, you know, they're kind of making up as, as, as they're going along. But they decide that they, you know, they need to have some organization. They, you know, you can just imagine the kind of excitement, the kind of nerves, the apprehension, but also the kind of the thrill of going, right, we are now, we're rebels, we're partisans. Even if we're partisans, we need to have a charter. And they've now got like a dozen people, including Steve and Hermes and Jock, and they've got a few. There's a Sugarno and there's. There's a couple of other fellows. And they consecrate the Stella Rossa. In the crypt of the church at Vardo, overseen by the local priest, is Don Iolo Cattani. And Lupo is elected, voted in as the leader of this new band and Gianni as the second in command. And they call themselves the Stella Rossa. And right from the word go, they go, we're not going to be political.
- [37:14]
A
Well, it's odd, isn't it? But also, this is the autumn of 43. You were talking in the first part about how people in the summer are thinking, well, you know, the mountains aren't that bad. It'll be okay. Their decision is tempered by that. They're not thinking like this. These are people properly mobilized, properly radicalized against the. Aren't they? Because they're making this commitment as it pitches into the winter. So that's why you end up with this core of people who really, really want to do this, rather than the drift of people over the summer who they maybe necessarily can't trust.
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B
Yeah, absolutely. And it's very clear that Lupo's the right man for the job because he's got this terrific charisma. We've all met these people. They're the, you know, the guy in the village. They're the youngster in the village who everyone just sort of is drawn to because they're cleverer, they're sharper, they're just more self confident, more self assured. You know, he's seen some action. You know, he's had military training. I mean, you know, in the Italian army, that's sort of questionable, but he's got some. He's got fire in his belly is the truth of it. By end of November, there's about 20 of them, and their first big action is blowing up a freight convoy which is halted on the railway line. So this is German stuff, but they're all manned by. The railway, is manned by Italians. And Gianni said, you know, he opened fire of a motion. He said, it was just something I had to do. And I remember saying, yeah, but didn't you feel a bit funny about opening fire on your fellow Italians? And do you know what he said? I remember this absolutely crystal clear. He just went, they had their dance, we had ours.
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A
I think I might use that in difficult situations. You have your dance, I have mine. I mean, it's very, very tough, isn't it?
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B
Yeah. But anyway, they're not doing very much over the winter, that first winter of 1943 and into the beginning of 1944, you know, the front is stagnant, nothing's much happening. You know, they're basically what they're trying to do, they're basically hiding rather than being active. You know, they've taken to the mountains. Everyone knows them. But, you know, this is so localized, this community. Everyone knows everyone in those mountain villages of Cipiano, of Casalia, of San Martino, Gardeleta, of Quecha, of Cavaneziani, all these little settlements. Everyone knows who Lupo is. They've known him since he was a boy. He's a figure. So hiding in the mountains is like, you know, they're not going to be stitched up by those. Those guys. Or are they? Because they are stitched up, because there are threats to them. And at the end of January 1944, or Lindo Samaki, who is Canyoni, is one of the originals, and he's one of the guys who's been in the crypt and the church of Vardo at the consecration of the Stellarossa, and he betrays Lupo. No one knows quite why he's done, but it's probably pressure from family. You know, they're starving, it's cold, it's winter. You know, it's just. Just he doesn't see any future for the Stellar Rossa. And, you know, he's going to have to betray his friend because that's the only way he's going to survive is dog eat dog. Anyway, whatever the reasons, on the information from Cagnoni, the fascists then send a spy to infiltrate the Stellar Rosso. And this is Amedeo Archoni. And right from the moment that Archoni turns up, Lupo suspects him and talks to Gianni about it. But Lupo is always, weirdly, for a man of his position, actually quite squeamish about killing people. He doesn't like killing people. He'll do it if he has to. He's not murderer. He doesn't know what to do about our choney. So he divers a bit. He just also can't believe that Canyoni has betrayed him. So everyone else is going, this guy's a spy. This guy's a guy. He's going, no, no, it's not, you know, Cannyone wouldn't have done that. He's just gone off. He's had enough of it. This can't be true. And they're going, no, no, he really is so they really, really watch him. And one night they're in this cave, and the cave they've lined with wood to make it a little bit more habitable. There's four of them up there. There's Archoni, there's Janny, there's another guy called Fonda. And they take Fonzo and Gianni, take it in turns to keep guard with Lupo. And Lupo's on guard. He's got a knife. And he's taken out his knife out of its sheath, and he stuck it in the roof where the wood is so it's hanging down just while he's sort of sitting there smoking or doing whatever he's doing. And Gianni and Fonzo asleep. And suddenly Archoni jumps up, grabs a knife and attacks Lupo and stabs him in the arm. And Lupo screams out, which wakes up Gianni. So Gianni tries to knock off Amadeo, jumps on him, rolls on him. But Archoni's the knife and gets on top of him. He's bigger than Janny, and the knife is coming down towards him, the knife that pierces his forehead. And when I met him, he still had the scar just there. And there's blood coming down his face. And then Fonzo and Lupo managed to knock off our choney and disarm him. And I said, so, what did you do with our choney? And he said, I took him outside. And gosh, yeah. And it's just. It's so. It was so unlike any interview that I've done with a warfare veteran, because people shoot at Germans from a distance. They open their Bren gun or, you know, they're firing on a Messerschmitt, or they're kind of opening fire with their tank, but they're not taking. Picking someone up by scuff their head, taking them outside and shooting them in the back of the head, which is what they do. To Archoni, it was a kind of, you know, and you're sat there, this guy's smoking all the facts you've just given him. And he's telling you this story, and you're. You're there. There he is. This is the guy that's, you know, you're talking to someone who has lived like this. It's is. It was pretty amazing. Anyway, 6th of May, Lupo's brother Guido is arrested, and he's been working undercover at the local fascist headquarters, you know, the local fascio, and feeding information to the Stada Rosso. And obviously, they. They don't exactly catch him, but they Kind of they suspect him in any way. He's. He's arrested the GnR, then go to the Mussolesi home in Cavaneziani and burn it to the ground. And they lock up Lupo's parents as well. And as you can imagine, he goes ape. And they mount a raid on the GNR barracks, kill everyone and spring them all out the of prison. And this has happened in early May, which is, you know, then Carlo Venturi turns up two weeks later. You can see why they're a bit suspicious, can't you?
- [42:57]
A
Springing your family does rather indicate that you. Yes, you are partisan, though, doesn't it? Some of it's not particularly considered right in terms of, you know, not endangering people or whatever. I mean, it's interesting. I'm trying to resist saying this, but it feels like clannish and the things. Maybe some of the things stereotypically about Italy, you know, and. And yet there they are literally springing his mum and dad from prison. Fair enough. You can understand it.
- [43:23]
B
Yeah, I think it's all very Robin Hood, if I'm honest. I mean, I think exactly what it is. You know, the mountains are Sherwood Forest and the villages and Vardo is Nottingham or whatever. I mean, everyone, by this point, they're hiding so much that they're hiding from the fascists and they're hiding from the Nazis. But everyone knows who they are. Everyone knows there is a Stella Rossa partisan band. It's just to do that, you've got to break into their fear fiefdom. And their fiefdom is the mountains of Montessoli. So occasionally they're going to kind of head down into the valleys, but. But that is where they're basing. And, you know, if you want to go up there and confront Lupo, good luck, you know, because everyone's going to see you coming. This is their manor, you know, they. They know every square yard of those mountains. It's interesting because when you are up in Montessoli and Monte Salvari and that mountain community, it's not a huge area. You know, you're maybe three miles wide, sort of six miles in length, that kind of stretch, something like that, you know, it's really. And the core of it know, a matter of a few square miles. You'd know everywhere, you know, all the house, you know, you know, every track, every trail, every bit of wood, you know, all the falls of the mountains. It's your job to do that. I mean, you know, because you're constantly on the move. You're constantly finding different areas as well to kind of hide out and hang out and all the rest of it. You can see how, how it sort of develops. And you know, the Stella Rossa gets stronger and stronger as it's summer, as the drafts are coming in, as the deadlines for kind of turning up is, is getting more and more people coming up. And also there's the whiff of success. And you know, as I say, there's nothing the Allied lines being on the move to kind of give everyone a massive fillip. So you can see how it, you know, but being a partisan is a summer job basically. You know, you don't really want to be a part in the winter is the truth of it. But, but you know, there is, there is a politicization going on of the partisans. There is, there is a wider resistance, a political resistance movement going on in Italy. And obviously before the armistice, you know, all political parties except Fascist Party have been banned in Italy. But, but, but once the armistice has been signed, the six main opposition parties actually very interestingly form themselves into a, into a single anti fascist entity in Rome. And this is the cln, the Comitato di Liberazione Nazionale. These are six parties. So there is the Italian Communist Party, the pci, they're the Christian Democrats. There are the Liberals who are really quite right wing. There are the Labour Democrats, Democrats. Then there is the Action Party, the Parpito Dazioni, which is a new party named after Giuseppe Mazzini's party which had been unification story of 1860 and so on. And then there's the Socialists and the pci, the Communists, the Socialists and the Action Party. They're all very anti monarchist because there is still a monarchy in Italy at this point. You know, even throughout the whole Fascist period there was still a King, Victoria Emmanuel iii, the Diminutive, he's only about four third, nine, absolute total piece of work. And then the Liberals, they're pro monarchy. But the amazing thing, so politically they're all quite diverse but they all stick together. And the interesting thing is very cleverly they all agree that the president of the CLN should be Ivan Obonomy and he is the former pre fascist Prime Minister who is now also leader of the Labour Democrats. And throughout the summer of 1943 the CLN is helping to set up clandestine committees in northern Italy behind allied lines, you know, in the area of the Nazi occupation and the rsi, the, you know, the Socialist Republic, the Neo Fascist party Milan becomes the official in inverted commas, clandestine government and supreme organ of the resistance movement. And it's now becomes known as the clnai. Lalta Italian, Higher Italy, Northern Italy. And at the same times, the. The Communists and the Action Party are taking control of a large number of partisan bands. So the Garibaldi Brigades, they emerge and they're broadly communist. Typically they have commanders of people who fought on the side of the Republicans in the Spanish Civil War. The Action Party brigades are known as the Justitia Elibita, the Justice and Liberty Brigades. And there's a lot of Garibaldi brigadier brigades. You know, I remember talking to guys from the 8th Garibaldi Brigade that were sort of based in the Ravenna region, for example, guy called Yada Mizaroki, he was amazing bloke. But Stellarosa want nothing to do with this, that they don't want political commissars, they don't want politicization, they just want to be neutral. Lupo absolutely sticks to this. We'll get rid of the Nazi fascists, then we can talk about politics. But right now I want everyone to be united. I don't want this to be the party, I don't want the Brigade to be split up on kind of political ground grounds. And actually, I think he was quite sensible.
- [48:04]
A
I think it is. That is pretty smart. But if everyone else is doing it, it puts you in invidious position, is the truth.
- [48:10]
B
Well, the problem is links are being made. They create the Corpor Volunteer Deliberazione, the cvl, which is the militarized wing of the clnai. So the CLNAI is the political bit, the cvl under an ex Italian general, I can't remember his name right now, Cordona, I think that is the military wing. And then you have Area 1, so in Emilia Roman, which is where Montessoli is, that's by an an acronym called kuma C U M E R. And they go, well, look, you know, if you come onto us and you allow commissars, we can get you more arms, we can give you more support. And Lupo's in a bit of a bind about this, but then suddenly he has a real break of luck, because in April 1944, and this is a big moment for Staderossa, they make contact with an OSS agent, an Italian called Lino Rocco. And Lino Rocco has been a telegraphist in the Italian name Navy. And then after the armistice, is in the south of the country and gets recruited by the Office of Strategic Services, the forerunner of the CIA, which is the equivalent of the American equivalent of the soe. And the SOE and OSS operate together in Brindisi in southern Italy. But they're separate. But they operate together in terms of arm drops. So OSS would send an agent to one partisan band, the SOE would send an agent to a different partisan band and through them they would have a radio and they would go back to Brindisi and signal to 344 Wingo RAF to deliver the drop. So the 344 Wing is doing the arms drops, whether it's an OSS led operation or an SOE operation. But Berlino Rocco is OSS. And the previous autumn, previous summer, he'd met a girl called Liliana Nicoletti in Fiume, which is up in the, you know, near Venezia, near Venice, in the foothills of the Alps. And he escapes south and he's later landed by submarine on the Adriatic coast. And rather than going to where he's supposed to go, he immediately goes up to Fiume to look for his girlfriend. You know, I mean, he's a good sort of, you know, red hearted Italian. And when he gets there he realizes that he finds out that, that Liliana has moved back to Bologna. So he then goes all the way to Bologna, only discover that her family has moved again to Vardo, this little town just south of Bologna on the set of Valley. So finally he gets there and he's reunited.
- [50:21]
A
So it's this guy's, he's been dropped.
- [50:24]
B
In by the OS and basically he's just chasing skirts.
- [50:26]
A
It's absolutely unbelievable.
- [50:29]
B
It's unbelievable.
- [50:30]
A
How are you going to run special operations if people are just, oh, actually I'm looking. Unless he's, he's cleverer than any of us. He thinks figures the only way to stay with his girl is if he joins the OSS and uses that to pursue her across Italy. It's unbelievable.
- [50:44]
B
Well, one of these days I've got to dig out a report I've got of an SOE agent who goes into. Gets dropped into Northern Italy is the funniest thing you've ever read. It's absolutely clear that he's been completely strung along by these fascists and he just doesn't realize it. It's really funny. I mean, these guys are really serious. The amateur. And I suspect what Lino Rock has said is, yeah, I'll do this, I can do telegraphy, I can do radio work, I can do Morse. You know, I'm just a guy, I hate Fascists. And he, all he wants is to get back to his girlfriend and he's saying, I've got loads of contacts in the north and just send me up there and I've got contacts in Fiume. You might need to give me quite a long lead. So I get, you know, and I'll report back when I've got some decent information. And he's probably sending back all sorts of, you know, troop movement reports and stuff. So they're, you know, back in the OSS in Bradesia, they're quite happy, probably, but. But anyway, I agree. I mean, the whole thing is just absolutely fantastical. It's so amateur, the whole thing.
- [51:32]
A
Or they've priced in that might go walkabout, you know, they're going to lose a few, aren't you? You know, they're not going to go where you want them. Yeah, but this does mean they have lots of weapons though, because the drops have been successful and they're. They're well equipped.
- [51:44]
B
Well, because Liliana says you need to contact the Stellar Rossa because obviously he's in the force of the oss, he's in the force of the Allies. So he puts them in touch with Sarah and he goes, great. Finally I've got my parcel band. I can organize some arms drops. It's all, again, it's, you know, the, the code is listen on, you know, we'll send these drops in. They're going to be really good. Listen, on the BBC radio, when it says, mario, get ready. Mario, get. That means it's going to happen imminently. And then when the birds are singing, that means the drop's going to come that day, that night. So get ready. Anyway, it all goes absolutely accordingly to Pan. You know, lots of. They come down full of battle dresses and Sten guns and ammunition and Bren guns and grenades and explosives and TNT and, you know, everything you could possibly want, you know, by, by the end of May they've got about 250 people.
- [52:27]
A
Gosh.
- [52:28]
B
And this just gives them all the latitude that they could possibly hope for. You know, by this point they've really started to make a serious impact, is the truth of it.
- [52:35]
A
Yeah. And this is raids on trains, roadbloc, down the. You've the two Valleys, the Seta and the Reno. So you've actually got areas you can control. So they're. They're attacking. There's a flak battery at Vardo as well that they attack and inevitably the Germans think, well, we're not going to put up with this. On 28th May 1944, they respond with a Rasta Elemento, a sweep up with using the GnR and StellarOSSA are ready. Because the thing is, I imagine as you're saying, you know, by this stage of the war, people know which way the war going. So some kid will run up into the hills and say to the Stellarossa, they're putting together a posse to come and find you. You better be ready. They drive off this. This sweep. And Rossi says, it was a good fight, really. We killed about 240 Germans, but only one of our men was wounded.
- [53:21]
B
Well, they're dug it, they're defending, they're hiding in the. In the trees and caves and all the rest of it. See them coming, smear them down, and they're flush with arms. I mean, the Germans and the. And the fascists couldn't have chosen a worse time to do this. This is where they're absolutely at kind of peak power and stuff. Stella Rossa.
- [53:37]
A
Yeah. The GNR start deserting the following month in June, which is interesting. Again, it's this. This thing of it all falling apart. And Janny then leads a raid on the barracks. They steal more weapons. They round up the rest. And give them a chance to join the Stellarossa rifle point. Possibly most do. The rest are killed and with knives to save on ammunition. I mean, if this is Robin Hood, it's not the Disney version, is it? There's more Germans captured by partisans south of Monte Sole. They both surrender, but one shot. And anyway, the others are taken to the partisan camp. He's pleading for his life, showing photos of his family, and instead they pin into the ground with knives and they leave him to die. This is.
- [54:16]
B
Yeah, that's done by some Russians, actually deserted, enjoying the. Really.
- [54:19]
A
Well, there we are. This is what's going on, isn't it? You know, the whirlwind being wreaked, isn't it? Then a member of the Stellar Rosser is captured by the Germans. He strung up for the Germans, Bruce. I mean, their rope breaks. So a member of the GnR goes to get thicker pieces of rope. So the next fascist that's captured by the Stellarossa is killed the same way. Direct reprisal. I mean, this is tough stuff, isn't it? But they do also disarm GNR men at barracks and send them home. So sometimes. Sometimes they don't have a taste for killing.
- [54:47]
B
Yeah, to me, that he's leading that particular act. And I should also say that by this point, they've all split up into battalions and companies. And they are not all on the Monte Soli Massive the whole time. They're spreading a much Wider net. I mean it's the perfect place because you've got these two arteries going southwards either side of the mountains. You know, you've got the main road going down the Reno valley, you've got a main road and a railway line going down the set of valley. You know, if you're going down to. If you're German, you're going down the front, you have to go down these roads. So, you know, obviously perfectly placed but, but there's mountains either side, you know, so, so there's the, the monsooni massive in the middle. Then you've got other mountains on the, on the western side of the Reno Valley, you've got other mountains on the eastern side of the Seta valley. So you're spreading all over the place. You're never staying in one place at any one time. And, and, and that's a key point. But there is split in the. In July because Lupo is still resisting approaches of the clnai and their military wing, which is I mentioned is Kuma, which is the Commando Unico Militare Emilia Romana and this is the local branch of the cvl. And Kuma has been urging Lupo to move away from the Monte Soli area. And Sugano is one of the originals and he argues with Lupo they should move. And Lupo refuses. There's a big spat, the shots are fired, they patch things up. But Sugano splits and joins the Medina branch of the Positive instead. And Carlo Venturi is serving under Sugarno, his battalion. He's in, was it Alfieri's company, but he's in Sugarno's battalion. But he decides to stay with Lupo. But it's, but you know, morale is really fragile as it would be. These are kind of 18 year olds, 19 year olds, 20 year olds, you know, who are scared witless most of the time. Yeah. But you know, by August they're several hundred strong and they're still causing mayhem with the Germans passing down either side of the, of the front front. And there's more POWs, there's more Russians, there's a very charismatic Russian called Karaton. At one point, Caraton has this big firefight about 15 miles south of Montessoli. They see off several German patrols and they kill the German commander. And usually at this point they'd have backed off, but on this moment Lupo thinks, nah, this is, this is a really good time to really go for it. And so they envelop this huge, really quite large German force formation as they're falling back onto Monte Oggioli. A large number of Germans are killed, an artillery battery is completely destroyed.
- [57:03]
A
Wow.
- [57:03]
B
But for the most part, you know, we're now talking about hit and run tactics, you know, playing havocs with German lines of supply. And Lupo is. He's not interested in Kuma, he's not interested in the clnai, he's not interested in the cvl. What he's interested in is the Allies. He has this vision, this is his dream, that the Allies come, they embrace as comrades in arms. He's treated that they're all treated as soldiers, fellow brothers in arms, and they march onto Bologna. That's his dream. And that's how it's going to be. Increasingly, he's less interested in the GNR and those GNR barracks. He just thinks they're kind of, you know, local small fry stuff. What he really wants to do is hit the Germans and the German lines of. Lines of supply and lines of communication. So telephone lines cut, trucks attacks, roads blown, patrols attacking and sniping at lone vehicles going up the road and all this sort of stuff. And the truth is, is in isolation, these attacks are kind of are a new nuisance, but they're being repeated all over. Between June and August 1944, Castle Ring is told in an intelligence briefing that the partisans had killed in action 5,000 troops and wounded in action and captured 30,000. So that's 35,000 in total, which is probably about four divisions by 1944 standards. I mean, that's a lot.
- [58:17]
A
That's quite the headache for Kesselring, for the Germans. And of course he's on the back foot. The front's clean closing, heading north, getting closer and closer. You can hear the guns at the front line in Monte Sole. And Lupo thinks, well, the Allies, the Allies are going to be here any minute and I'm going to join them and they'll treat me as a soldier and everything's going to work out. However. However, the Germans have had enough of the Stella Rossa and they're girding their loins for their largest raster, Lamento. Maximum effort against the Stellarossa. And we'll be hearing in the next episode what happens next.
- [58:55]
B
And I should just give you a little bit of a spoiler. The SS have arrived.
- [58:59]
A
Yes, there we are. If you want to find out what happens next, immediately, then of course you could join our Patreon and become a patron of. We have ways of making you talk and we'll take you to the ads free nirvana of listening that you're looking for. We don't have a festival.
- [59:14]
B
Well, no. What are you talking about? We have ways first six I tell you what I do have to plug is I am doing There's a day at the Jockey Club in Newmarket, Saturday the 15th of November. The Jockey Club. I'm doing a series of talks. Steve Prince is also going to be there. Clem Mully is going to be there. Saul David is going to be there. It's a whole second World War day and a very nice surroundings, drink and food thrown in. Please do join us there.
- [59:46]
A
Anyway, thanks everybody for listening. We will see you very soon. Cheerio.
- [59:49]
B
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