Five Days In May: A Glimmer Of Hope

Summary

WW2 Pod: We Have Ways of Making You Talk
Episode: Five Days In May: A Glimmer Of Hope
Release Date: June 11, 2025
Hosts: Al Murray & James Holland
Duration: [Approx. 48 Minutes]

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1. Introduction to the Episode

In the episode titled "Five Days In May: A Glimmer Of Hope," hosts Al Murray and historian James Holland delve into a critical juncture during World War II—the intense days surrounding the evacuation at Dunkirk. This episode is part of a series exploring the high-stakes decisions and pivotal moments that shaped the outcome of the war.

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2. The Belgian Surrender and Its Immediate Aftermath

[02:27 - 05:58]

The episode opens with a confessional memo penned by Winston Churchill on May 28th, addressing the dire situation following the Belgian surrender. Churchill emphasizes the necessity of maintaining high morale and unwavering resolve to continue the fight against Nazi Germany:

Winston Churchill [01:49]: "...showing confidence in our ability and inflexible resolve to continue the war till we have broken the will of the enemy..."

James Holland explains the gravity of the Belgian capitulation and its potential ramifications on the broader war effort, especially concerning the Soviet Union and German strategies moving eastward.

Key Points:

• Belgian Surrender: A significant blow to the Allied forces, creating gaps in the defensive perimeter around Dunkirk.
• Churchill's Memo: A strategic attempt to uphold morale without revealing the full extent of the disaster.
• War Cabinet Crisis: The Belgian surrender triggers a crisis meeting on May 27th to address the evolving frontlines.

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3. Internal Conflicts: Churchill vs. Halifax

[15:17 - 35:50]

A significant portion of the episode focuses on the political dynamics within the British government, particularly the tension between Winston Churchill and Lord Halifax regarding mediation versus continued resistance against Germany.

Notable Quotes:

Churchill [18:51]: "The French are trying to get us onto the slippery slope. Our position will be entirely different when Germany has made an unsuccessful attempt to invade this country." [18:51]

Halifax [19:01]: "We must not ignore the fact that we might get better terms before France went out of the war..."

Key Points:

• Churchill's Strategy: Advocates for unwavering resistance and prepares to address the wider cabinet to consolidate support.
• Halifax's Stance: Favors exploring mediation options, hoping for better terms before further German advancements.
• Political Maneuvering: Churchill leverages Chamberlain's support to isolate Halifax, ultimately strengthening his position within the War Cabinet.
• Churchill's Address: On May 28th, 5 PM, Churchill publicly announces the evacuation of the British Expeditionary Force (BEF), garnering cross-party support and diminishing Halifax's influence.

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4. The Situation at Dunkirk

[05:19 - 14:49]

The hosts provide a detailed account of the military maneuvers and defensive actions at Dunkirk. The unexpected resilience of the BEF and the improvised strategies employed to fortify the evacuation efforts are highlighted.

Notable Events:

• General Mason McFarlane's Report: Indicates the BEF is surrounded, anticipating disaster. He attempts to shift blame to French allies for the deteriorating situation.

  "General Mason McFarlane is a splendid fellow..." [05:19]

• Defensive Stands: Commanders like General Brooke and Major General Bernard Montgomery orchestrate movements to plug gaps left by the Belgian surrender, enabling a tighter defensive perimeter.

• Heroic Resistance: Small units, such as the Second Gloucesters and 2nd Royal Norfolk, exhibit extraordinary bravery, holding strategic points against overwhelming German forces.

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5. Improvisation and Evacuation Efforts

[21:29 - 44:43]

A central theme of the episode is the remarkable improvisation demonstrated by British forces in evacuating trapped troops from Dunkirk. The discovery and utilization of the East Mole as a makeshift harbor becomes a pivotal moment.

Key Events:

• Captain Tennant's Innovation:
  [23:00 - 24:42] Captain Tennant identifies the Eastern Mole as a potential evacuation point. Despite initial skepticism, he successfully docks the Queen of the Channel, enabling hundreds of soldiers to embark.

  "The East Mole works without any difficulty... [24:42]

• Challenges Faced:
  The Queen of the Channel is struck by enemy aircraft, but luckily, most personnel disembark before it sinks, demonstrating both the risks and rewards of improvisation.

• Mass Evacuation:
  By mid-morning, multiple ships are loaded at the mole, significantly increasing the number of soldiers rescued:

  "By the end of the 28th of May, there is very definitely a glimmer of hope." [45:34]

Notable Quote:

James Holland [21:29]: "He thinks he'll do that a little bit later." [21:29]

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6. RAF Fighter Command's Role

[42:11 - 43:54]

The episode examines the crucial role of the RAF's Fighter Command in providing air cover for the evacuation. Despite limited resources and challenging conditions, strategists like Air Vice Marshal Keith Park implement effective tactics to defend Dunkirk.

Key Points:

• Limited Resources: Only 16 fighter squadrons under Park's command are allocated to protect Dunkirk.
• Strategic Patrolling: Implementing concentrated patrols rather than constant coverage to maximize effectiveness.
• Weather Advantages: Persistent low cloud cover and minimal wind hinder Luftwaffe's reconnaissance and bombing accuracy, inadvertently aiding the evacuation efforts.

Notable Quote:

James Holland [43:55]: "Most of them are being lifted up from the Dunkirk end and there are more men pouring onto the beaches..."

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7. Government Strategy and Public Messaging

[14:49 - 35:50]

Balancing transparency and propaganda, the British government strategically informs the public to maintain morale without revealing the full scope of the crisis.

Key Points:

• Ministry of Information's Role: Controls the narrative to ensure public optimism while withholding certain grim details.

• Media Reporting: Newspapers like the Daily Express highlight heroic defenses and the BEF's resilience, subtly preparing the populace for the evacuation.

  "BEF fight heroic battle for the coast... Fate of Calais uncertain." [14:49]

• Churchill's Public Address: Emphasizes determination and readiness to defend Britain, reinforcing public confidence and governmental resolve.

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8. Personal Reflections and Conclusion

[35:50 - 48:30]

Towards the end of the episode, the hosts reflect on the intertwining of strategic decisions and frontline actions. They emphasize the collective effort and serendipitous moments that contributed to the glimmer of hope during Dunkirk.

Personal Insights:

• Tom Holland's Connection: Shares a personal anecdote about visiting the Wormwood Place, linking family history to the events discussed.

  "I've so enjoyed revisiting this and to do that kind of deep dive into the kind of cab has just been completely fascinating." [45:37]

• James Holland's Perspective: Highlights the importance of the evacuation as a turning point, maintaining suspense by not revealing future outcomes while acknowledging their well-documented success.

  "It's something that now looks kind of inevitable in the way that it looks now as we look back through 85 years hindsight." [33:59]

Conclusion: The episode concludes on a note of cautious optimism, underscoring the critical decisions and heroic efforts that provided a lifeline during one of Britain's darkest hours. The successful evacuation from Dunkirk not only saved hundreds of thousands of soldiers but also galvanized British resistance, setting the stage for future victories.

James Holland [47:43]: "It really, really is." [47:43]
Tom Holland [48:04]: "Thanks everyone for listening and girding." [48:04]

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Key Takeaways

• Leadership Under Pressure: Winston Churchill's unwavering resolve and political savvy were instrumental in navigating internal conflicts and rallying the British government.
• Military Ingenuity: The adaptive strategies and improvisational tactics employed at Dunkirk exemplify the resilience and courage of Allied forces.
• Role of the RAF: Critical air support, despite limited resources, played a vital role in safeguarding the evacuation efforts.
• Public Morale: Strategic communication ensured sustained public support and morale during the evacuation crisis.
• Serendipity of Success: A combination of strategic decisions, heroic actions, and fortunate circumstances culminated in a successful evacuation that became a pivotal moment in World War II.

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Join the Conversation:
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This summary is intended for informational purposes and to provide an overview of the podcast episode "Five Days In May: A Glimmer Of Hope." For a complete experience, listeners are encouraged to tune into the full episode.

Transcript

[James Holland]

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[Al Murray]

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[Winston Churchill]

In these dark days, the Prime Minister would be grateful if all his colleagues in the government, as well as important officials, would maintain a high morale in their circles, not minimizing the gravity of events, but showing confidence in our ability and inflexible resolve to continue the war till we have broken the will of the enemy to bring all Europe under his domination. No tolerance should be given to the idea that France will make a separate peace. But whatever may happen on the continent, we cannot doubt our duty and we shall certainly use all our power to defend the island, the empire and our cause.

[James Holland]

That was, of course, a strictly confidential memo written by Winston Churchill on the morning of Tuesday, the 28th of May. Because we've put Black Monday behind us, haven't we, Jimmy?

[Tom Holland]

Well, not entirely, because there's a further War Cabinet meeting on Monday 27th May at 10pm yeah, yeah. But it's called to discuss yet another crisis. And this, of course, is the Belgian surrendering.

[James Holland]

Welcome to we have Ways of Making youg Talk, where the Belgians have just surrendered. It's Episode four of our five days in May, trying to zoom in as close as we can get to the decisions being made at this absolutely titanic 5 days working week in British history, a world history. And as we said in the last episode, the to the free world depends on this, but also the unfree world. What would happen to the Soviet Union if Britain is out of the war, you know, because that's next then, in fact, pretty soon the Germans will be drawing up plans for heading east, actually, regardless of the outcome with Britain. So the fate of the entire planet, make no mistake, hangs on what's been going on. And I don't think, I don't think that's hyperbole. That's not us trying to sell in a podcast here or selling the story. I actually think that is the case and unfortunately for a lot of people who don't like him, Winston Church is right at the of those events.

[Tom Holland]

Yep. And whether Churchill can win over Halifax and the rest of the war cabinet, you know, that's going to have to wait another day. But the stakes literally could not have been higher. So that's where we're at. On the 27th of May, D Penner, who's now ensconced down in Cornwall we mentioned before, civilian with her kids, she's going, you know, we're now receiving very little news, which may be a good thing. She also wonders, with, it has to be said, a certain amount of perceptiveness, why the Germans appeared not to have made good use of their gap. I should have thought they would have rushed troops through it, she added, as fast as they could get them there. Quite.

[James Holland]

That's interesting, isn't it?

[Tom Holland]

If it's obvious to D Panner, but it's not obvious to Hitler. It's amazing.

[James Holland]

Exactly what I was going to say. The thing is, is though, not everyone really knows the true extent of the disaster, so intuition is what it is. Right. Harold Nicholson, who's at the Ministry of Information, he's at the Ministry of Information saying, we're a bit short on news. They have a meeting later on that day where he hears about the situation in France from General Mason McFarlane, who's just back from FHQ, having commanded Mac Force. McFarlane tells us in blunt language that the BEF are now surrounded, notes Nicholson, and that a disaster is bound to take place. You can see why Churchill drafted that memo, can't you? McFarlane's been sent to let people know what's going on, basically, hasn't he, back in London, he wants the Information Minister of Information to Know that the Belgians deserted them, which is deeply unfair, and the lack of French fight is what's caused all their problems and that they urged. The most important thing is to save the reputation of the British army by putting the blame on their allies instead. I've got a lot of time for this guy. I think General Mason McFarlane is a splendid fellow, isn't he, Jim?

[Tom Holland]

Well, he ends up being the top military diplomat in Italy, 1944.

[James Holland]

Wonderful, fantastic fellow. Yes. It's obviously the fault of the French, the Belgians, oh, boy, they've been absolutely ghastly, totally useless. And the idea is to the big problem, obviously, if you're the Ministry of Information, you've got to inform the public, but you've also got to. Can't tell the Germans too much, can you?

[Tom Holland]

No, no, absolutely not. So, you know, it's a bit of a nightmare, really.

[James Holland]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tom Holland]

To put it mildly. And the other problem is, is that, you know, they're trying to muster everyone around Dunkirk and trying to deal with their French allies, but they can't get hold of them. You know, Gort and Pownall never seemed to be able to get hold of Blanchard, which is a source of enormous frustration.

[James Holland]

Yeah. Every time they think they found him, he's gone, hasn't he? Moved on. He hasn't told Gort what's going on. The French comms, generally, the battle for France, are bad, aren't they? They're relying on dispatch riders and stuff. They won't use the phone. They're very much stuck, aren't they, in an even older way of doing things than the bf, perhaps.

[Tom Holland]

Yes. There's a reason why you can never get hold of Blanchard is because the phone lines are down. And as you say, they're using dispatch riders, which is just hopeless in this situation where roads are clogged with troops and refugees and, you know, repeatedly under aerial attack, you just can't do anything. Gort staff moves to the Dunkirk area and Henry Pownall, who keeps a very good diary during this time, he later ends up in Southeast Asia. Do you remember him? He's chief of staff to Mountbatten, but he's chief of staff to panel at this point. And he notes, in his time, much of the town was in flames and falling. Houses blocked the roads, bodies of civilians were lying in the streets. I mean, it's. Yeah, it's apocalyptic stuff, isn't it? They learn when they get there that, you know, the port is unusable, and without ever managing to catch up with Blanchard, they get to their New headquarters at Houtkirk at 3am on the 28th. But plenty of troops are already on the move that night, some heading back to Dunkirk and others filling the gap left by the retreating Belgians. And this has been one of the big dilemmas, is that on the top of the lozenge, there's this stretch from the Belgian coastline in, you know, 15, 20 miles where the Belgians are holding it. And suddenly with their surrender, that gap has got to be plugged. And General Brooke, who at this point is not the chief of the Imperial General Staff, but is commander of 2 Corps which is holding this northern, northern part of the lozenge, holds a conference with his commanders. And his three divisions are spread out west from Menin, as in Menin Gate to the east of Lille. But clearly now some pretty complicated movements are going to be needed, because in the middle you've got fourth Division, which is to move back a short distance behind the river lees, around the village of Warnerton. And the rain helps keep the enemy at bay, which is fortunate, although obviously it's completely miserable for the men. But Major General Bernard Montgomery's 3rd Division, who he.

[James Holland]

Jim. Never heard of him.

[Tom Holland]

Never heard of him. He's at the bottom of two corps line and he is going to swing behind fourth and fifth Divisions and fill the hole on fifth left flank. So it goes Belgians, fifth Division, fourth Division, third Division. And now third Division is going to swing in overnight behind fourth and fifth Division and fill that gap. And this is moving the entire division.

[James Holland]

50 miles at night. This is the thing he's practiced. It's the interesting thing, is that it's one of the things that Monty's had third Division try before, and the division handles incredibly well and so on. And even in this chaos, there are people who have a good Dunkirk, don't they, who then end up absolutely central to the way the, you know, the Allies then go on to win the war, is the truth. So Gort finally catches up with Blanchard at 11am on the 28th. It's quite funny, they've been trying to find him and he walks into Gort's command post. Hello. You'll be looking for me. I hear at around 11 o' clock, around the same time that the Belgians are surrendering ECIM. And he's horrified to learn that the BEF are now evacuating. No one has told him in French High Command.

[Tom Holland]

Well, they might have done it. It's just the message hasn't reached him.

[James Holland]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, some lad on a motorbike in a ditch somewh.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

There's no other conclusion that could really have been drawn at this point. Gort and Pownall now urge him to order the French first army, who are at the bottom of the corridor, to join the BEF and fall in.

[Tom Holland]

So they're at the eastern end of this lozenge.

[James Holland]

You really need to join in with this, help us collapse the bag, as it were, because Gort's going to retreat to the line Ypres, Poprange, Cassel, which is behind the river Issa, some 25 miles from the coast.

[Tom Holland]

I mean, these are all First World War names, aren't they?

[James Holland]

I know, I know, it is something, isn't it? And lots of the senior officers must have been thinking, oh, goodness, and what do we do now? Beat the buggers here last time. But they seem to have got the best of this this time. A lot of them must have been thinking that. You've got these amazing stands at places like Hasabruck, Cassel, Wormhoot, Old County Regiments, Gloucesters and your Woosters, Ox and Bucks and all these people.

[Tom Holland]

This is your grandfather, isn't it?

[James Holland]

Yeah, exactly. Territorial Battalion, you know, second Bucks Battalion. Territorial Battalion. A handful of professional soldiers. Everyone's a civilian pretty much. They've been up to the deal line. This is the other thing to remember with the bef. It isn't just that they're caught in their existing positions by the Germans and overwhelmed. They have gone up Steel Line in Belgium. They've marched into Belgium in order to meet the feint through the Low Countries and now they've had to scurry back. Everyone's knackered, everyone's footsore from that alone. And then they put in these extraordinary stands and you've got artillery firing 18 pounders over open sites and stuff against Panzers. You've got blokes at crossroads with boys anti tank rifles, you've got sappers ditching their shovels and getting stuck in. It's an extraordinary action there really, and critical to the business of just absorbing the German blow. And I think in the last episode you pointed out how with sluice gates open, with the area wide open and flooded and flat, with no distinguishing features, you can defend here. The Germans also, they're at the end of their rope too, so their men are tired, their kits wearing out and all this sort of thing. And it's a fairer fight at this point, isn't it? I think it's fair to say, yeah.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[James Holland]

And the Germans have a rough time of it too, at this point, which is what it's all about, because time is of the essence.

[Tom Holland]

It absolutely is. Anyway, Blanchard's having none of it is the truth of it.

[James Holland]

Love it.

[Tom Holland]

He went completely off the deep end, you know, such a withdrawal was impossible. Couldn't do it, you know, had to stay where they were, all the rest of it. So, Gordon, panel go okay, Fine, you're on your own then. Great.

[James Holland]

Suit yourself, mate.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah, suit yourself, mate. Yeah.

[James Holland]

So ended the meeting, notes, panel. Except for one or two excited moments, there was no unfriendliness and we said goodbye quite cordially. But Blanchard is a professor, no general, and the situation was much too big for him to compete with with.

[Tom Holland]

Fair enough.

[James Holland]

Very polite.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah, he is. To be honest, Branchard does not have a good campaign.

[James Holland]

No.

[Tom Holland]

You know, he's an Army Group Commander, He's Army Group north and he's just rabbit in headlights is the truth of it.

[James Holland]

Yes, but he's a professor. No general, Jim. He's a professor, boy. He's no general. Yeah.

[Tom Holland]

I mean, might as well be Monty saying that, mightn't it?

[James Holland]

Yeah, I know. Yes, there's very much a tone here.

[Tom Holland]

Sort of withering dismissiveness.

[James Holland]

Yeah. In the south, however, Guderian's panzers, now that they've been unhalted, it's interesting. They're taking a back seat, aren't they?

[Tom Holland]

Yeah, well, it's nothing they can do because it's all waterlogged.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Tom Holland]

It's now, you know, the moments pass. The opportunity for the panzers to strike was, you know, on the 24th of May when they were halted. It's not now. It's a different scenario. So first and second Panzer pressing on towards Dunkirk and the 20th motorized division with the SS Liebstendarte Adolf Hitler and the Gross Deutschland Regiment subordinated to it, and they're pushing hard against the British line. So Gudera is still hoping to reach Dunkirk, but his part in this incredible victory is, it has to be said, almost done, you know. So his panzers are playing a supporting role, but it's infiltration by infantry that's going to clear the defence around, that's growing around Dunkirk. And some ugly scenes at this time as well. So on the 28th, 80 POWs of the Royal Warwickshire Regiment are executed by the Waffen SS troops of the SS Liebestandarte. And also the near Merville SS Totenkopf troops also massacre 97 men of the 2nd Royal Norfolk. So, you know, so it's pretty bad business and Actually, I went to the, to the Wormwood place.

[James Holland]

Yes.

[Tom Holland]

Where the Royal Warwicks were last year. It was amazing.

[James Holland]

Yeah. When you did your walk, didn't you? You went, you went by there, didn't you?

[Tom Holland]

Anyway, the North Army Group B is still pressing forward, but with the sudden collapse of the Belgians, the German 18th army has to sort of clear away half a million prisoners and then move forward again. And actually their advances is dramatically slowing at this point. You know, hordes of Belgian companies surrendering, wandering towards German lines and loose crews, their hands in the air and, you know, they've all got to be cleared and sorted and corrupt and, you know. So actually on the 28th, the fighting is comparatively light in the big scheme of things. And so the earlier fears that Dunkirk is going to be overwhelmed in 24 to 36 hours, it now seems that they've got a little bit more time. So that's a minor glimmer of hope, particularly. Time also allows them the opportunity to set up defensive positions better, you know, dig in and all the rest of it. So. So it's clear that Dunkirk is not going to be overrun immediately and time allows them to get more men off, even if it's not very many.

[James Holland]

Yeah, but what do the public know back in Britain? Well, they don't know there's an evacuation coming, although the newspapers, I mean, it's interesting, isn't it, because there's this really interesting balance that has to be struck. Even when things are going very badly, the British newspapers know they can't essentially lie to people. So they say, BEF fight heroic battle for the coast. In The Daily Express, 300 men with rifles hold off 100 Nazi armored units. Fate of Calais uncertain. I mean, they're directing people's attention to the fact that, that the BF is now on the coast and surrounded and are holding off the enemy. Fate of Calais uncertain, of course, is, however nonsense, because Calais fell two days previously. I just think it's really interesting that that isn't a newspaper saying everything's going, everything's tickety boo, is it? That's a. That's leading the public towards a disaster.

[Tom Holland]

Right, you'd have thought so. Yeah.

[James Holland]

You imagine the conversations between Ministry of Information and the editor of the Daily Express, which is Beaverbrook, after all.

[Tom Holland]

Yes, exactly. You know, who's now Minister of Aircraft Production.

[James Holland]

Yeah, I mean, that's all quite difficult, isn't it? The critical. The split between Churchill and Halifax still has to be resolved, doesn't it? We've had the Rose Garden chat, but Cabinet has To resume, you've got Belgium capitulating King Leopold's surrender. What does that all mean? So how does Churchill handle it, Jim?

[Tom Holland]

Well, magnanimity once again comes to fore. You know, in France, a finger of blame is being pointed squarely at King Leopold for deserting his allies. But British Prime Minister refuses to pass any judgment on the Belgian monarch at all. After the first Cabinet, Churchill asked Chamberlain for a private talk.

[James Holland]

Talk.

[Tom Holland]

This is just brilliant. So an opportunity has arisen for Churchill to show his loyalty to Chamberlain just at the right moment. So Lloyd George, former Prime Minister and the longest serving MP in the House of Commons, has written to Churchill asking to be part of the government. And Churchill now asks Chamberlain what he thinks of this idea. And both men know that Lloyd George is defeatist, admires Hitler and hates Chamberlain. I replied that it was best to be frank. Chamberlain writes in a letter to his sister later, if he thought that Lloyd George would be more useful to him than I, he had only to say so and I would gladly retire, but I would not work with him. And Churchill knows this is what he's going to say.

[James Holland]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Tom Holland]

So Churchill immediately replies that Chamberlain was of far more help to him than Lloyd George ever could be. There was no comparison. Winston and I were serving together, added Chamberlain, and we would go down together. I mean, so simple. I mean, you know, he's just, he's just reeled him in, hasn't he? He's just playing him.

[James Holland]

Well, yeah. I mean, again, it just shows one of those things, that personality, what people make of each other, whether they can work together or not. These are actually the things of history as much as sort of tectonic plates of economic fatalism or whatever. There is a simple fact these guys detest one another. Chamberlain absolutely cannot and will not have anything to do with Lloyd George. And that seals Churchill's political fate in a way, doesn't it?

[Tom Holland]

Yes, but what does Chamberlain say to Church? He says, we will go down together.

[James Holland]

Exactly.

[Tom Holland]

Fight it out or go down together. In other words, I'm with you.

[James Holland]

Yeah. It's incredible, isn't it?

[Tom Holland]

That's the point. Churchill's got him. He knows that Chamberlain is not going to decide with Halifax now.

[James Holland]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Tom Holland]

That's what he knows. So that then emboldens Churchill for his next move. So the next move when it comes to the next war Cabinet. But first of all, Churchill wants to make a brief statement to the House about the fall of Belgium. So they all go into the House of Commons. There's no mention of the evacuation attorney.

[James Holland]

All.

[Tom Holland]

Not. Not one at all. You know, he thinks he'll. He'll do that a little bit later.

[Winston Churchill]

So he says, I have only one thing to add, that nothing which may happen in this battle can in any way relieve us of our duty to defend the world cause to which we have avowed ourselves. Nor should it destroy our confidence in our power to make our way, as on former occasions in our history, through disaster and through grief, to the ultimate defeat of our enemies.

[Tom Holland]

And who's the one man not there to witness that?

[James Holland]

Well, it's going to be Lord Halifax.

[Tom Holland]

Because he's a Lord.

[James Holland]

Because he's a lord. He's not part of the House of Commons. House of Commons. He's not part of the Commons struggle. I mean, it's fascinating, isn't it, that.

[Tom Holland]

You know, and this is the kind of rhetoric that Halifax doesn't like, you know, that speaks of Britain still having a moral duty to the world, when logic suggests clearly that an opportunity to get out of their current dire fix should be grabbed with both hands. Yeah. But when a Liberal member suggests that the MP's words reflect the feelings of the whole House, no one demurs. So they might privately be thinking something different, but openly they're not. So the next War Cabinet meets soon after in a room at the Commons, so not at number 10. And it's then that the argument between Halifax and Churchill's reopened. Chamberlain says that he feels it's a rather steamy discussion. Certainly Halifax and Churchill repeated their same argument for and against mediation.

[Winston Churchill]

So Churchill says, the French are trying to get us onto the slippery slope. Our position will be entirely different when Germany has made an unsuccessful attempt to invade this country.

[Tom Holland]

Halifax sighs, rubs his forehead, and then says, we must not ignore the fact that we might get better terms before France went out of the war and our aircraft factories were bombed than we might get in three months time. And so it goes on back and forth, neither giving ground until. Until 5pm Churchill then asked for an adjournment and to meet back again at 7 o' clock that night. And this is because he's already arranged to now address the entire Cabinet, not just those in the War Cabinet, in his rooms at the Common. And this is a crucial moment that has now arrived for during this address to senior ministers, and there's, you know, there's over 25 or something, ministers in the wider cabinet. Churchill plans to kill Halifax's proposals once and for all.

[James Holland]

And we'll be back after the break to tell you how he does that. But we will also. Before we get to that, we'll update you on what's going on in Dunkirk itself. We'll be back in a second.

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[James Holland]

Welcome back to we have Ways of Making youg Talk. Well, we left you with Winston Churchill. He's adjourned the war cabinet. He's going to address the entire cabinet and he's got something up his sleeve to finally shut Halifax down. But Meanwhile, because after all this is like the most.

[Tom Holland]

Meanwhile.

[James Holland]

Meanwhile, the lasagna of meanwhiles. What you've got now is Captain Tennant. Captain Tennant, who's the sno, the senior Naval officer.

[Tom Holland]

Preston Tennant. Yep.

[James Holland]

In Dunkirk. He's now got a tin hat, his tin hat on with the letters SNO cut out from the tinfoil of a cigarette packet and stuck on with sardine or oil. Who says the British can't?

[Tom Holland]

It was one of the things that most annoyed me about Dunkirk was seeing Kenneth Rana wandering around in a. In a soft cap and not a tin helmet.

[James Holland]

It's this. That. That's. That was your main sticking point. Or the Spitfire with 25 minutes of ammunition?

[Tom Holland]

One of them, yeah. That was pretty high on the list as well. I would say. That was sticking point number seven.

[James Holland]

Yes. A tremendous glider, that Spitfire as well.

[Tom Holland]

Well, as I would know.

[James Holland]

Yes, of course, Jim. That's our producer, Junior Chipping in there. I mean, maybe we do an episod about the movie and people could just send in their gripes and we'll just read them out. Actually, that's not a bad idea, is it?

[Tom Holland]

You don't need to. I could do it all.

[James Holland]

No, no, I want. I want the wisdom of crowds on all of the problems with that.

[Tom Holland]

All right, let's get them in.

[James Holland]

But I think one of the interesting things about Dunkirk is it's often said of the British that are bad of improvising during the Second World War that we don't. That the British are incapable of improvisation. Well, explain to me Dunkirk, then.

[Tom Holland]

That's the most amazing bit of improvisation. I mean, are you kidding?

[James Holland]

From top to bottom, from the letters cut out of a cigarette packet and stuck on with sard, to the entire. Damn.

[Tom Holland]

If that's not an improvisation, what is? Anyway, let's quickly recap what. What Bill Tennant's been up to since. Since arriving in Dunkirk the late. The previous afternoon around 5:30pm so he signals back to Dover, asking for every available craft to head to the beaches east of the port. But obviously taking men in rowing boats and other small craft is an extremely slow and laborious process.

[James Holland]

Difficult business.

[Tom Holland]

So then at around 10pm the previous evening, Monday of the 27th 7th of May, Tennant notices something significant. He notices that the Luftwaffe had pounded the harbour and the port facilities relentlessly, but not the two long moles that extend some 1600 yards out to sea. So the moles are these kind of like a breakwater, They're a kind of narrow wall. And in this case, they are. They're lattice. They're lattice concrete piles and topped with a narrow wooden walkway. Yeah, so the breakwater bit of it is kind of sort of under the surface, where they're. Where they're kind of embedded, really. And anyway, the western mole, you know, obviously they can't get there because they wouldn't be able to then get across to the other side, which is where they need to be. But the eastern mole, running out from the sea wall that links the harbour entrance to Malo Les Bains, is easily accessible. So what you can do is you can walk from the beaches at Malo Les Bains, which is the immediate beach immediate to the east of Dunkirk Port, clamber onto a. Onto a concrete sea wall, and from there walk straight out onto this. This mole, the east mole. And it's still there. It's been rebuilt, but it is. It is still there in exactly the same position.

[James Holland]

And it's a mile long, isn't it? It's extraordinary.

[Tom Holland]

Nearly a mile long. What's a mile? 1743 yards, 1600 yards. It's long. It looks pretty flimsy. It has to be said. It doesn't look very strong. But Tennant thinks to himself, hang on a minute, maybe, maybe we could more ships against this. What happens if we can use it? That, if he can, is going to be a game changer. So taking two of his officers with him, he hurries over to conduct a quick survey. And when he looks at it, you know, he thinks, well, yeah, it feels sturdy enough, but will it take the strain of a large ship slapping into it with a, you know, a three knot tidal current behind it? You know, that is another question. But there's only one way to find out. So he signals to Wolfhound, the destroyer on which he's had his passage over the Channel Channel, which is handling communications offshore, and he asks her to send a personnel ship to the Eastern Mole to embark a thousand men. So Wolfhound calls on the Queen of the Channel, which is a peacetime cross channel steamer which is now offshore at Marlene Bao, so really close, and immediately hurries over and eases her bow in at around 6 knots and gently nudging first her stern against the Cronking Pass. She slivers successfully alongside and the Mole has taken the strain without any difficulty at all. So Tennis is thinking, oh my God, thank goodness, maybe, maybe the East Mole might offer a kind of lifeline that they desperately need. So less than an hour later, the Queen of the Channel is loaded with 904 men and the captain's preparing to cast off. He says, you know, how many more could she take? Someone shouts for the Mole. And the skipper says it's not a question of how many more, but whether we can get away with what we already have. And unfortunately his sixth sense is right. Because at 4.15am on 28 May, as dawn is breaking and halfway across the Channel, the Queen of the Channel is attacked by a lone enemy aircraft. Bombs straddle the ship, breaking her back and her main propeller shaft. By stroke of good fortune, there's another ship en route. So nearly all the men are able to be disembarked before the Queen of the Channel sinks. But despite this disaster, the fact that the Mole works is an incredible fillip for Tenant and for all those trying to get back to safety and frankly, for the whole of the befuddle. Yeah, I mean it is an amazing twist in this story.

[James Holland]

Yeah. They're able to exploit it, though. That's the interesting thing, isn't it? It's right there and they can use it. So at 4:36am, tenant signals asking for all vessels to go along the east pier rather than off the beaches.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah. And they start double stacking.

[James Holland]

Yeah, Exactly. So at 4:45, a second ship leaves the mole. 9:55, a third ship casts off, packed with men. By mid morning, the pier's crammed with men. The Luftwaffe are overhead again, but haven't cottoned onto this yet, have they?

[Tom Holland]

No, because the mole is near the. Which is near the oil containers.

[James Holland]

Can't see it.

[Tom Holland]

So they can't see it. You know, there's 10 temps, cloud. Anyway, there's not a drop of wind, you know, so that's another thing that's wrong with Dunkirk film, because there aren't any sort of crashing breakers on the coast or anything like that on the shoreline.

[James Holland]

Send your complaints.

[Tom Holland]

And the Luftwaffe, you know, the cloud base is low and it's even thicker and denser and lower over the port because of this thick pool of oily smoke. So it's like having a massive umbrella over for them, you know, shielding them for what they're doing. You know, the Germans can't see, Luftwaffe can't see this, and it's incredibly difficult to hit this even if they could see it.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Tom Holland]

You know, the cloud base is what, you know, thousand foot or something, or 800 foot. Your suka dive from is beginning his dive, you know, several thousand feet above that, 6,000ft, 5,000ft, something like that. So you can't aim when you start your dive on the Mole because you can't see it. The only way you're going to attack that is not with a dive bomber, it is with a Ju 88 or a Heinkel or something, slipping underneath the cloud base and coming in and incredibly low. But that in turn is incredibly dangerous. And so hardly any of them are doing it, which is why it's not getting hit. Where people are getting hit is out in the Channel, where the sky's clearer. Yeah, that's the point.

[James Holland]

But the thing is, though, in these circumstances, nevertheless, Tenant realizes the sort of scale of the task. So at 9:35am, he says, at present, 2,000 men on a Dunkirk beach, 7,000 men on a dune, for which I have no votes available. They now need a water which army cannot supply. Unlimited numbers are falling back on this Aryan situation at present, in present circumstances will shortly become desperate. I think what's interesting about those numbers is they're tiny, aren't they? When you consider how we know more than 300,000 men get off the beaches of Dunkirk and here he is worrying about a couple of thousand, seven thousand hits. It's again, it beggars belief, the scale of this, doesn't it?

[Tom Holland]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Holland]

Surely, as you're. As you're in his position with it yet to have happened, and his helmet smells of sardines. So what they need is more boats. They need big ones along the. The mole that can moor alongside the mole and they're the smaller ones to take people off the beaches still.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

So even with little boats, the more that can do the trip across the Channel, the better. There's a sense in there that also you create. If you've got so many boats going backwards and forwards, the Germans won't know what to pick as well in air attack, will they? You just overwhelm what the Germans are capable of doing, is what? Well, yeah, but of course, it's all secret, so drawing vessels together has been quite difficult, hasn't it?

[Tom Holland]

Yeah, it is. But all the ships that can are heading to Dunkirk. You know, the Royal Navy's reach is considerable. You know, there's no ship anywhere, any port in the UK that can't reach another part of the UK within 24 hours. So, you know, that's good. They've got a number of naval commands in the Mediterranean, Middle East, Far east, so on, you know, so obviously those can't be called upon. But the British Isles are protected by five naval commands, so that's nor Portsmouth, Western Approaches, Rosy Orkneys and Shetlands, which are then divided into sub commands. So Dover is a sub command of Noor, you know, which is why you've only got a vice admiral in charge of that era, which is what Bertrand Ramsay is at that stage. The ships operating in these commands are obviously the navy, part of the naval's largest force, the Home Fleet, commanded by the completely brilliant Admiral Sir Charles Forbes, who's a total legend and completely brilliant later on in the summer, you know, so they got a big old job on their hands, but, you know, they can call upon a lot. You know, it's the world's largest navy and so there are a lot of ships, ships that can be sent over there straight around. So anyway, that's the situation. It's looking better by far and away from being out of the woods, but it is looking better. You know, the Germans are being held at bay. They're not overrunning Dunkirk quite as quickly as they'd feared. And they now have this lifeline which is the east mole. So that is a substantial glimmer of hope which should stiffen resolves and also puts Churchill in a better situation because the other thing is that overnight third division has plugged that gap. Monty's route march of 50 miles has been entirely successful. The BEF is folding in on itself. So it, it's the lines that it needs to protect are smaller, so that then requires less men, which means more men can fold in on the lozenge and head to Dunkirk. So the situation is, it's still absolutely critical, but it's substantially better than it was 24 hours earlier. And that's the key point. There is a palpable glimmer of hope. So at 5pm, Tuesday, 28 May, Churchill finally addresses his wider cabinet. Some 25 minutes men, different parties, all highly experienced parliamentary men. And Churchill gives them a frank account of what's happened in the past fortnight and admits that the BEF is now being evacuated. He says he expects 50,000 to be lifted, although told them 100,000 would be a magnificent effort. So, you know, again, you know, he's trying to be honest now and the situation has changed. It's no longer kind of 40, 45,000. You know, they're now daring to talk in terms of 100,000. He says the public needs to be prepared for bad tidings. And what's happening in northern France was truthfully, he says, the greatest military defeat for many centuries. However, soon the war is going to be turned against their island and they need to prepare themselves for that. But an invasion would be an immensely difficult thing for the Germans and Hitler would demand their fleet. You know, if they tried to sue for peace now, this is what this would look like. Hitler would want their fleet, naval bases, much else besides a puppet government would be set up with someone like Oswald Mosley, head of the British Union of Fashion. On the other hand, he points out, they've got plenty of reserves. They've got the world's largest navy, they've got air defenses, they've got the world's only fully coordinated air defense system with a home advantage. More, more fighters are being produced every week. You know, the waters are amply mined and they've got a Home Guard being, you know, the LDV as this, this point is the local defense volunteers being mustered. You know, they're a long way from needing to throw in the towel at this point, is basically what he's saying.

[James Holland]

Exactly. Well, and another Point, just before we get to my peerless impression of this moment, there are lots of British defence contracts in America that are coming to fruition right at this moment, aren't they? This is the thing. Britain has spent a vast amount of money on armaments in America.

[Tom Holland]

The Mustang is first flying. The Mustang.

[James Holland]

Exactly, exactly. So maybe, you know, and rifles, countless rifles. So maybe the army right now hasn't got the kit it needs. But as he says, you give it a moment, you buy the breathing space and we'll. We have a chance. This is the sort of paradox of the very well alone moment, isn't it? Is that Britain does feel on its own at this very moment, but actually, if you can pull yourself away from that and look at actually what. What it has at its disposal, it's not that it. Not necessarily the end. And he's quite right, that the thing. The navy will end up being part of being a German navy and that Mosley will. They will install a public government. The terms. The terms can only be bad and the terms will be bad for Halifax is the truth. They're not going to get anything out of this, are they?

[Tom Holland]

No.

[James Holland]

So he says, we shall go on.

[Winston Churchill]

And we shall fight it out here or elsewhere. And if at last the long story is to end, it were better it should end not through surrender, but only when we are rolling senseless on the ground boilerplate Churchill.

[James Holland]

It's gone well in. This stuff's gone well in Parliament a moment ago, earlier on in the day, isn't it? That's the other thing to remember. So he's tested it out.

[Tom Holland]

Out, Yeah.

[James Holland]

I mean, you always need to try your best material out first.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah, yeah. You can imagine Halifax standing at the back, sort of shaking his head, going, you know, the odd romantic. But this stirs people. Yeah. And, you know, the bottom line is he now has the support of his wider cabinet. They're all agreeing with this, you know, the point is, this is the opportunity for dissent. You know, if anyone's. Anyone wants to dissent, this is where they need to put their hands up and they don't. They all agree.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Tom Holland]

And crucially, he's got Chamberlain. So when the War Cabinet reconvenes, Churchill recounts what has just happened and stresses the response. So after this, he then goes into War Cabinet and he says, I cannot.

[Winston Churchill]

Recall having ever before heard a gathering of persons occupying high places in political life express themselves so emphatically.

[Tom Holland]

So at this, Halifax mentions Reynaud's proposed appeal to President Roosevelt and whether it should be a joint message. But he Says nothing more of an appeal to Mussolini. Churchill slaps that down. He now even dismisses an appeal to the American. He just says, no, that's it. And that is that. That is it. It's amazing, you know, that is the end of the matter. Halifax has been snookered, he's been completely neutered, you know, the War Cabinet. Churchill has got Chamberlain, he's got Attlee, he's got Greenwood, he's got the wider cabinet. Halifax is politically isolated. That's the end of the matter.

[James Holland]

That's the end of the matter. Better.

[Tom Holland]

It's absolutely amazing. And in doing so, has massively increased his own authority, which had been pretty fragile up to that point.

[James Holland]

Well, and cross party authority, which is the important thing, because he needs cross party authority until the Tory party come round behind him, which they do as things progress. But until they do, he needs everyone on. Everyone on board. And I think it's interesting. Is it within the same 24 hours that situation has improved with regards to the evacuation. So is the politician.

[Tom Holland]

It's.

[James Holland]

The coincidence is quite extraordinary, isn't it?

[Tom Holland]

Yeah, it's absolutely amazing. It's amazing. You literally couldn't make it up. You know, mistake. You know, Britain is still in terrific peril, but she does now have a chance to fight on, to pit herself, you know, against the best that Germany can throw at her. And while the battle in France might have been lost, the war hasn't been. And in Britain, one major crisis at least has been averted. And, you know, we started yesterday's episode with that quote from Lucas saying, you know, the fate of. Of fate of Britain, the fate of a Second World War, the fate of the whole free world, rests on two things. The ability of the BEF to be evacuated from Dunkirk and the split between Halifax and Churchill. Well, that split has been resolved. That has been sorted. That is no longer an issue that is bringing, potentially going to bring the downfall of the government and all that follows as a result of that. So few. This is why Tuesday the 28th is looking up and why we're going to call this episode Glimmer of the Hope. Anyway, on the afternoon of the 28th of May, we've moved on from. From national days of prayers and Black Mondays to Glimmer of Hope Tuesday, Gray.

[James Holland]

Tuesday, let's call it Shades of Gray Tuesday.

[Tom Holland]

Black Monday, Gray Tuesday. Not sunlit yet, not sunlit.

[James Holland]

There's quite a long way. Sun comes up. But Lord Gort, on the afternoon the 28th, moves his command post, the Belgian King Summer palace overlooking the Dunes and the sea at la palliative Japan, just inside the Belgian border and some nine miles east of Dunkirk. I mean, it's interesting. They really do have command of the situation, the army at this point, the bf, don't they? They do. They're holding the Germans back and it's tremendous, stirring stuff, isn't it? People are engaged in fantastic stands and Henry Pownall writes. And so here we are back on the shores of France on which we landed with such high hearts over eight months ago. I think we were a gallant band who little deserve this ignominious end to our efforts. For myself, I am still stunned. It all seems a bad dream from which I hope to wake. I imagine most people felt like that.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah, but at least these are the beaches, which is a lot more than could be said for the vast majority of the bef. But you know, more are on the move that night and the vast majority of the BEF are successfully falling back within the main perimeter and the defence line along the River Isa and behind that to the canal line between Burgoo and Ferns. But some aren't, you know, and Calais been sacrificed. And so two of the Second Gloucesters and the Four Fox and Bucks at Cassel and nearby Ledringham who've held this, you know, they've held the Germans at bay on this isolated hill for a couple of days. Then they try and break out overnight. Most of them end up in the bag. And of course also there's the considerable fighting at Hasbro where your grandfather was killed. He paid the ultimate sacrifice, didn't he? Yeah, in this fighting right at this moment. So I mean, you have an incredibly personal connection to this when you go.

[James Holland]

To Hasbrouck, you know, it's, it's a, there's a railhead there, there lots of brick buildings, lots of brick buildings, sort of modest little, you know, Flanders town. And you can see with the great open, you know, because it's flat, you can see how, you know, how you defend it. I did do a, you know, battlefield tour there with, with the colonel, with dad, a very long time ago when they were involved in putting the plaque up and they had people from the rifles and you know, they do that usual thing where they say to the soldiers, well where would you, where would you put your anti tank weapons? How would you defend this position? And they all come to the same conclusions basically. Well, you know, we can see them coming around that corner.

[Tom Holland]

The reason these are all so successful is because these are strong points that the Germans can't ignore. They have to turn and face them and get rid of them. So Cassel and Ledingham, there's these hills where the defenders have a kind of dominant position. They have to be kind of worked over by the Germans. And it's a process, and it's the same as Hasselbrook. So these little stands are holding up the German effort and buying time. Time for those trying to, you know, who are already back at Dunkirk or falling back. So that's the key point. And they're absolutely epic. And each one of these little epic defenses is a story all of its own. And, you know, large numbers of these end up either killed, wounded or. Or in the bag. So sort of, you know, casualties of the casualty figures of. Of the battle. But these are, you know, they're properly heroic and. And, you know, your father's grandfather's last stand there is. Is, you know, it's immense.

[James Holland]

It's incredible. So stuff.

[Tom Holland]

It's incredible stuff, you know, and that they are literally giving their lives to save others.

[James Holland]

We did do an episode with my dad, the Colonel Ingram, who'd. Who's researched it and found out what went on, which will be in our Dunkirk episodes from five years ago, where you'll hear him.

[Tom Holland]

Episodes 141 to 148.

[James Holland]

Yeah, he didn't tell me to get a haircut during that, but he may as well have done anyway. But Dady Penner has now realized that the lack of news was not a good thing. She writes in her diary, she wonders whether the. The BF could possibly be saved. She's reacting to the Belgian surrender. Nothing short of a mischief could save the situation on that part of the front. Now she's such an interesting barometer of how people are feeling.

[Tom Holland]

She's so perceptive. She does sense this renewed feeling of determination, not just within herself, but amongst everyone. And she says, you know, she's enjoying the reports of the RAF's wonderful performance. The daily bag of enemy planes, she writes, is now almost commonplace. And certainly, you know, Fighter Command has a key thing, which is why my Battle of Britain book starts in May 1940, because Fighter Command enters the fray on the 23rd of May, or 21st of May or whenever, whatever date it is. But it's. It's this period that Fighter Command gets out and Fighter Command is there to defend Great Britain. So the moment you're using it, it is there to defend Britain. So Fighter Command has. Has been playing its part. And responsibility falls under 11 group, which is Southeast England and London, under Air Vice Marshal Keith park for covering Dunkirk. Park has got 16 fighter squadrons at his disposal out of the 36 now left in Fighter Command. And the rest are remaining as both a reserve and to protect other parts of the country. So. So like Kentucky park is, is also facing the problem of range, although not so much from lack of fuel, but because it means operating outside Britain's defensive system. So there's no radar cover over Dunkirk. So he's forced to rely on, on inefficient and exhausting standing patrols which are just, you know, so what that means is you fly over as a squadron of 12 planes and you beetle up and down the beach for a bit.

[James Holland]

See if you bump into anyone.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah. And you know, the chances are you are, but, but you can't maintain that all the time time. So you have to do it in concentrations because otherwise to get it there all the time you're probably down to threes and sixes rather than 12s or 24s. The Admiralty is demanding cover around the clock, but it's not possible. So he goes over himself in his Hurricane and then talks to the pilots. And he quickly becomes convinced it's much better to send over two squadrons for some of the time rather than half a squadron or, you know, or as I say, a vic of three to provide non stop cover. Which is why again, Dunkirk film is wrong because they would never send him over just three. Three just saying, well, we're gonna get an episode. Anyway, he's undoubtedly right and he gets his way basically. And he also makes sure that he rotates his squadrons regularly. 92 Squadron, for example, flies missions over the French coast on the 23rd and one on the 24th and then one channel patrol on the 25th and then it gets posted out of the way. And those who'd early served in France, such as 32 Squadrons Hurricane Squadron, you know, they, they've now done their bit and they're kept out of it completely. Give them a chance to recoup Super 8. But the other thing that's helping the British cause, of course, is the weather. You know, we've touched on this already, but basically the whole of that week of last week of May, Dunkirk is under 1010 cloud with barely a breath of wind. So this is not something that's going to blow over quickly. You know, visibility is deteriorating, rain comes, then heavy cloud and rain and again, but no wind. So the Channel remains flat as a board. So, you know, again there's this other, another glimmer of hope which is that the weather is playing into, into their hands and 18,000 men had evacuated that day, of which 12,000 are taken from the East Mole and nearly 6,000 from the beaches.

[James Holland]

It's working.

[Tom Holland]

It is looking better.

[James Holland]

Yeah. And you have. Most of them are being lifted up from the Dunkirk end and there are more men pouring onto the beaches, particularly near Bray Dunes. So Bill Tennant hears Now that there's 5,000 milling around the dunes and beaches there. So he sends off two of his officers and 15 men to see what they could organize. But it's not 5,000, it's 25,000 men. I mean, these numbers, divisions of men, you know, already there, exhausted, thirsty, hungry and without and leaderless. And there's nothing like enough boats offshore. So they signal, I must stress, the need for boats and motor launches at Brae. Much provisions for troops also needed. So gathering momentum. But it's so interesting how everything, everything falls into place at the pace that's needed. It's the coincidence and the, the serendipity of so much of this is extraordinary, isn't it?

[Tom Holland]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

That the navy are. That they find them all. When they do that, Churchill gains the political capital he needs precisely the moment he needs it. If you were a religious person, you'd say, well, that day a prayer worked, a king was onto something.

[Tom Holland]

And it just goes to show that, you know, 24 hours is a long time in this war and a long time in the politics of this war. I mean, it's just amazing. So that same evening, Admiral Ramsey from the dynamo room at Dover sends out a message asking for every available shallow draft power boat to be sent to the beaches as soon as possible. So despite the embargo, on the news of the evacuation, the Admiralty responds by combing the entire coast from Portsmouth to Norfolk for motorboats, lighters, barges and of course, their crews, and sends them all to Dunkirk. This, of course, is the little boats, little ships heading to Dunkirk. So by the end of the 28th of May, there is very definitely a glimmer of hope.

[James Holland]

And there we have it.

[Tom Holland]

Five days in May.

[James Holland]

Five days in May.

[Tom Holland]

I'm exhausted by this. I mean, I mean, you know, every time I return to it, I just think it is the most amazing story. And I am absolutely one day gonna write my novelized version, my faction of the nine days of Dunkirk and do it to the end. It's just so brilliant.

[James Holland]

I just like the fact that a man is. Helmet, smells of sardines, is at the center of events. I think that kind of detail. What I really like, Jim, is that we've stopped where we have have because we do know what's going to happen next. But let's not get, let's not talk about that because they didn't, they didn't know. The, the thing that now looks kind of inevitable in the way that it looks now as we look back through 85 years hindsight. And also if you want to know what happens next, we've podcasted about it before episodes 141 and sort of seven or eight of those after that. What I am drawn to is that, you know, the week before last week did VE Day coverage. And then immediately upon us is the anniversary. So the 80th anniversary of V Day. And then immediately upon US is the 85th anniversary of Dunkirk. And you think of this disaster, this thing where everything's hanging on a thread and then you think of the victory five years later in a way, the great imponderable.

[Tom Holland]

So I was talking about this last night and saying, you know, just think, you know, D Day is four years after this. Yeah, I know where you're talking about, you know, 1,213 warships, 4,127 assault class, 9,639 vessels, 12,590 aircraft, all part of D Day four years after this. I mean, it is nothing. It's absolutely phenomenal. What a turnaround. Shows what democracy can do when they pull together.

[James Holland]

Yeah, well, and you know, you're. The thing that speeds the plow is, is how critical the situation is. An urgency, necessity and urgency and seriousness and let's be honest, waste. Being prepared to waste tons of stuff in order to get to where you're getting to. I think it's. And sacrifice. I think it's the most amazing story. I mean, it's literally a Phoenix from the flames story, isn't it?

[Tom Holland]

It really, really is.

[James Holland]

BF dies in the flames of Dunkirk.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah. I've so enjoyed revisiting this and to do that kind of deep dive into the kind of, you know, the cab has just been completely fascinating.

[James Holland]

Yeah, I'd like to say that those, those were impressions we were doing. We didn't use some fancy AI to recreate the sound of Winston Churchill.

[Tom Holland]

You know, I was Halifax momentarily, I.

[James Holland]

Think there's no argument about that, Jim. Anyway, thanks everyone for listening and guring. Yeah, it's the Goring that remains unsurpassed. We will see you hopefully. We have Wazefest, 12th to 14th of September, Black Pit Brewery next door to Silverstone. A weekend of war waffle. We have waysfest.co.uk. we very much look forward to seeing.

[Tom Holland]

Amazing people coming to speak.

[James Holland]

Amazing people to speak. Thanks very much for listening. We will see you all again very soon. And cheerio.

[Tom Holland]

Cheerio.