Highlights & High Ground

Summary

WW2 Pod: We Have Ways of Making You Talk
Episode: Highlights & High Ground
Release Date: December 19, 2024

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Introduction

In the episode titled "Highlights & High Ground," hosts Al Murray, a comedian, and James Holland, a renowned historian, reflect on their activities and insights from the past year commemorating the 80th anniversary of World War II. This comprehensive review delves into their experiences, projects, and the profound moments that have shaped their understanding and presentation of WWII history.

Reflecting on the 80th Anniversary of 1944

The conversation begins with a discussion on the significance of 1944 in WWII history compared to 1943. Al Murray remarks,
“[02:14] '80 years on from 1944, which this time last year, we'd spent the whole year going. No One talks about 1943 enough because it's overshadowed by the epic events of 1944.'”
James Holland concurs, highlighting the monumental events of 1944, such as the D-Day landings, which have naturally overshadowed the preceding year's events.

Engaging with WWII Media and Series

Al and James delve into their experiences with contemporary WWII media, particularly focusing on series like "Masters of the Air" and "Rogue Heroes." Al shares his admiration for the portrayal of historical events, stating,
“[04:11] 'I thought Masters. Yeah, Was really, really fantastic.'"
James adds his perspective on the series' accurate depiction of key moments, specifically praising episodes that cover the Regensburg raid and "Black Thursday" for their authenticity and emotional depth.

Walking the Ground: Immersive Historical Experiences

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to their "Walking the Ground" series, where they visit historical WWII sites to gain a deeper understanding of the battles and strategies employed. Al recounts their visit to Norwegian HMS Belfast, filming under harsh weather conditions and reflecting on past projects like the sinking of the Scharnhorst and the complexities of Big Week. James reminisces about their visits to Normandy and Nijmegen, emphasizing the tangible connection to history that these trips provide.

James shares a poignant memory of visiting Omaha Beach, noting,
“[09:31] 'I've got to say, also, it's been fantastic to go there with you because we've talked about this stuff. To actually get up to the top of WN 60 and look out over the whole stretch of Omaha beach there with you. That was a fantastic moment.'”
Al adds his insights into the strategic importance of high ground, particularly referencing Grosbeak Heights and its role in defending key positions during the war.

Engagement with the Historical Community

The hosts emphasize the importance of their interactions with the WWII community. Al discusses becoming the honorary colonel of an airborne regiment, highlighting the camaraderie and respect shown by veterans and current members.
“[15:33] 'It was in a hotel in town. So there's a new Gurkha squadron has come in. Airborne Gurkha squadron has come into the regiment, which is really, really cool.'”
James reflects on the challenges of preserving historical accuracy and the emotional connections formed through these roles, sharing anecdotes about veterans' stories and the complexities of wartime decision-making.

Upcoming Projects and Future Plans

Looking ahead, Al and James outline their ambitious plans for 2025. They discuss collaborating on a book that explores pivotal moments like the surrender on VE Day, blending historical analysis with personal narratives.
“[34:32] 'You're part of the time, an entertainer... you must be able to recognize that in...'”
James reveals his upcoming project for Audible, where he will fictionalize the Dunkirk evacuation into a 45,000-word novella, integrating dramatized sound effects and narrated accounts to bring the event to life.

Additionally, they plan to continue their "Walking the Ground" series with new focuses, including:

• The Ardennes Offensive: Exploring the Battle of the Bulge.
• Operation Veritable: Delving into the crossing of the Rhine.
• Pacific Theater Exploration: Examining campaigns in the Philippines and beyond.

Al excitedly shares,
“[23:15] 'How far is that?... 60 miles. Three days.'”
highlighting his enthusiasm for upcoming sponsored walks that physically engage with historical sites.

Personal Anecdotes and Emotional Reflections

The hosts share heartfelt memories, including Al's flight experience in a Spitfire and James' involvement in memorializing fallen soldiers. Al discusses the emotional impact of meeting veterans and witnessing the enduring legacy of their sacrifices.
“[19:15] 'I found that what I really loved about the casino is first of all, the thing with the diaries...'”
James elaborates on his connection to historical accounts, emphasizing the importance of personal diaries in understanding the chaos and humanity of war.

Commemorating Achievements and Community Support

Al and James express gratitude towards their listeners and the broader historical community. They recount the success of their July festival, highlighting the joyous atmosphere despite the commemorative nature of the event.
“[33:10] 'I absolutely love the fact that we're meeting the listeners. I love the fact walking from one side of the site to the other means you shake hands, you take photos, you know, you rudely ask for selfies.'”
They also mention upcoming events like the Chalk History Festival and their continuous efforts to engage and educate their audience through interactive experiences and sponsored activities.

Conclusion and Farewell

As the episode draws to a close, Al and James reflect on the year's accomplishments and the personal growth they've experienced through their dedication to WWII history. They extend heartfelt thanks to their audience for their unwavering support and invite them to join future events and projects. The episode concludes with a festive farewell, celebrating the shared commitment to preserving and understanding the profound history of World War II.

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Notable Quotes:

• Al Murray [02:14]: "80 years on from 1944, which this time last year, we'd spent the whole year going. No One talks about 1943 enough because it's overshadowed by the epic events of 1944."

• James Holland [04:18]: "You know, those are those key moments in that summer and fall of 1943."

• Al Murray [09:14]: "What high ground amounts to, you know, and I used your quote in Black Tuesday about what is high ground? You know, what the accurate. It's nothing. It's the tiniest elevations. Other places, it's great big, actual visible heights."

• James Holland [15:30]: "It's tremendous. So they're about 60. More than that, actually."

• Al Murray [19:15]: "What I really loved about the casino is first of all, the thing with the diaries where basically because it's diaries, it's not. Well, I remember going up that hill and it was. Was worse than they say in history books."

• James Holland [33:39]: "The crowds are having a fantastic time. There is a sort of collective joyousness."

• Al Murray [34:32]: "You're part of the time, an entertainer... you must be able to recognize that in."

• James Holland [37:25]: "That is the moment. It's like March 1945, where suddenly it's kind of, these guys are our potential next enemies."

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This episode of "We Have Ways of Making You Talk" offers a rich tapestry of personal experiences, historical reflections, and future aspirations, providing listeners with an engaging and informative journey through the legacy of World War II.

Transcript

[Al Murray]

Thank you for listening to we have ways of making you talk. Sign up to our Patreon to receive bonus content, live streams and our weekly newsletter with money off books and museum visits as well. Plus early access to all live show tickets. That's patreon.com we haveways put us in a box. Go ahead. That just gives us something to break out of because the next generation 2025 GMC terrain elevation is raising the standard of what comes standard. As far as expectations go, why meet them when you can shatter them? What we choose to challenge, we challenge completely. We are professional grade. Visit gmc.com to learn more.

[James Holland]

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[Al Murray]

Achtung. Achtun. Welcome to we have ways of making you talk the second World War podcast with me, Al Murray and James Holland. And here we are, Jim, at the end of 2024.

[Joey]

80 years on.

[Al Murray]

80 years on from 1944, which this time last year, we'd spent the whole year going. No One talks about 1943 enough because it's overshadowed by the epic events of 1944. And let's be honest now, this has been a year of epic, epic stuff.

[Joey]

I know. I just don't know where the year has gone, to be honest.

[Al Murray]

Well, there's that problem, obviously. Yeah.

[Joey]

And also, I mean, I just to have sort of spent so much time careering around following in the footsteps of all these people of 80 years ago.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Joey]

It's just been absolutely incredible. I mean, 1944 was a big year. You know, you can bang the drum for 43, but doesn't matter which way you cut it. 44 is bigger. It just Is.

[Al Murray]

Well, let's look at it this way, like. So at the start of the year, I remember we went to HMS Belfast in January to film a little thing for we have ways Festival 4. And we shot up there in the horizontal freezing drizzle, stood on the deck and on the bridge and filmed there. And we were looking ahead to the year and we'd just done the series about the sinking of the Scharnhorst, and we were very much looking ahead to. Big Week was going to be the thing we were going to tackle first.

[Joey]

Yes. Oh, yes. Because of course, that was Masters of the Air, wasn't it?

[Al Murray]

Exactly. Because Masters of the Air was just coming up, which, you know, it seems peculiar that that's even. That's been and gone. I mean, in any other year that would be a huge event, but with.

[Joey]

Everything we've fitted in, only then did we go on to Bur. Then we did we go on to Burma Secondary Theatre.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. Not if you're there. Not if you're there, it ain't.

[Joey]

Not if you're there. Definitely not. Oh, my goodness, mate.

[Al Murray]

And then we've worked our way through all sorts of stuff.

[Joey]

I was writing Casino. I didn't finish that till March.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I was wrestling Arnhem to the ground in those terms. I mean, it seems quite strange to look back and think how much of that there was to do at the time. But, I mean, let's talk about Masters of the Air first, because that was the sort of. First big sort of cultural thing of the year, certainly, rather than the big series we're doing. Who did I end up talking to someone about this the other day? They said, have you seen that thing about the U.S. air Force?

[Joey]

Yes, yes, I have.

[Al Murray]

I have, of course.

[Joey]

Yeah. I might give it another airing, to be honest. I remember third and fifth episodes I thought were particularly good.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Joey]

You know, those are those key moments in that summer and fall of 1943.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Joey]

You know, so it was a shrine for Regensburg raid, wasn't it? And then it was the. The October week where they had sort of culminated on Black Thursday. And those two scenes are really good. And I remember thinking that first, where they go. Maybe it's even in the very first episode, they do their first run and they go over and they get all that flack over the Dutch coast.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Joey]

And I thought, you will not see a better depiction of this ever, because this is the only way you can show it.

[Al Murray]

Now, that was the boast, wasn't it, that we were getting when John Orloff came to talk on us. He's going to see things the human eyes hasn't beheld since. 43, 44, 45. I'm sort of thinking, okay, but it's pretty good. It was, it was pretty much bang on, wasn't it? Obviously. I mean I. One wonders what's happened to all the costumes. Which particular ether they've disappeared into.

[Joey]

Or is there a way they get bought out by. They get sold to. Back to the people that supply them? To be honest. Yeah. They then sell them on as sort of, you know, as.

[Al Murray]

As seen on TV. I mean there must be what, 500 of everything because they did go for the massive scenes with tons of extras.

[Joey]

Well, I remember John Olaf saying there was this one big hall where it was just absolutely stuffed full of.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah, uniforms.

[Joey]

I mean every uniform you could possibly think of.

[Al Murray]

That was the first couple of months of the year, wasn't it? We came into the new year having done the Scharnhorst. We did our big week which coincided with Masters of the Air and then Burma, of course. Now the other thing we've shifted to very much this year is the big series, isn't it? It's been the, the big long series. In depth stuff, of course.

[Joey]

I've absolutely loved doing those.

[Al Murray]

Well, I've really enjoyed it too.

[Joey]

I've really enjoyed it. And I've also enjoyed the quirky ones as well. I mean, not least the one we've just done, the duel. I mean I think this is absolutely fascinating and also different from what we normally do. So. Yeah, you know, just so bonkers all that, wasn't it? Do you know what I was thinking? I was thinking if that is a tailor made movie for Guy Ritchie, isn't it? Because you could have comedic moments in it.

[Al Murray]

Well, yeah, of course you've got. Maybe you make the hero of it, the Jewish forger, the guy.

[Joey]

No, no, no, no, no, no. You just have. It's kind of brittle and wolf. It's like two badass Nazis just trying to outdo each other.

[Al Murray]

Right, okay. There's your funding problem.

[Joey]

Yeah, Nazis can't be the heroes of films, James. Yeah, they can be antiheroes. Of course you can. As antiheroes in stories and tales all the way back to Herodotus. What are you talking about? What is to be if he's not an anti hero?

[Al Murray]

Well, yeah, but you know, someone needs to drive off into the sunset. Different category. No, no, no, someone else. Someone else, Jim. Someone else. Yeah. I mean Tommy Shelby isn't a Nazi. The core. The core point.

[Joey]

Yeah. He's a mass murderer.

[Al Murray]

Yes, I suppose so. I suppose.

[Joey]

Same coin, different sides.

[Al Murray]

There is. There is this thing, though, isn't there? That there has been, along with Masters of the Air and SAS Rogue Heroes. It's been a lot of actually mainstream Second World War telly this year, isn't there? Which I find very interesting because obviously. And those are two very different approaches to it, isn't it? One's basically, how do you do the American war effort again in the Vander Brothers kind of framing within that legacy, within that TV heritage? So little wonder that it was John that did it. And then like the SS Rogue Heroes, it's a very modern British telly way of looking at it. It's like, how do we get some ruffians on the tv?

[Joey]

Yeah. Very pumped for season two, I've got to say.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah, I can't wait. Yeah. And, you know, how do we get ruffians on the telly? How do we get them to have adventures? You know, the Second World War is kind of incidental to it.

[Joey]

Yes. It's kit and bangs and explosions and.

[Al Murray]

Lads having a fine old time brassing stuff up and.

[Joey]

And getting one over the Nazis.

[Al Murray]

Well, exactly. The occasional wrestle with a demon or two.

[Joey]

But let's not overplay it.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. Let's not get upset about it because, you know, the depiction of Maine in it, which obviously your Die Hard main fans really don't like because, you know, he was a much bigger man and all that sort of stuff, but, like the sort of Paddy Maine sort of gets his Black Dog drinks, shoot, shoots at bottles. Then he's.

[Joey]

Then he's all right again.

[Al Murray]

He's all right again. He's gleaming in combat. You know, there's no.

[Joey]

I mean, clearly that's the way forward to get over combat stress. Have a bottle of whiskey, shoot the bottle, shoot the bottle and then you're fine. I mean, to be honest, I mean, I can see imagine that if you had a, you know, you had a. An old Webley and you were kind of firing a bottle, that would be quite fun, wouldn't it?

[Al Murray]

Might be good. Bit of a laugh, wouldn't it? Yeah, yeah, definitely.

[Joey]

But anyway. But I thought. I thought Rogue Heroes is great. I thought Masters. Yeah, Was really, really fantastic. The trouble was the stories gelled so brilliantly in the first bit, didn't they?

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joey]

And that is a problem where you're trying to squeeze real events into a kind of, you know, Hollywood narrative. It's kind of tough to do because Real events don't play ball. That's the. That's the issue.

[Al Murray]

No, they refuse to. Don't they? And then, of course, we had our own adventures filming stuff, which it's been very, very interesting doing. Walking the ground and finding our way through that. And to go to Normandy several times this year as well, it's been really, really brilliant.

[Joey]

And I've got to say, also, it's been fantastic to go there with you because we've talked about this stuff. To actually get up to the top of WN 60 and look out over the whole stretch of Omaha beach there with you. That was a fantastic moment. And beers in Arromanche and all the rest of it.

[Al Murray]

But also to go up to Breville Ridge to look at. To look down from, you know, where Rommel's going. Right. It's gonna happen here. And then to, you know, to think about. And again, it is that thing where the minute you get there, the landscape starts telling you the story or dictating the terms of the story. It's the frame of the story. And obviously, we've talked about high ground an awful lot this year because of our trips to Nijmegen as well. And, you know, again, to go there more than once, to go back, to have another look, to have another think, to have another perspective on it each time, you know, that is really, really interesting. And what high ground amounts to, you know, and I used your quote in Black Tuesday about what is high ground? You know, what the accurate. It's nothing. It's the tiniest elevations. Other places, it's great big, actual visible heights.

[Joey]

It's 30 foot to 3,000ft.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. It could be anything. And when we. When we were stood on. On the reverse slope of Grosbeak Heights, looking across to the Reichsfeld, and you see the Reichsfeld in the distance, and that open space, that's a drop zone. And you know, the tangle that Jim Gavin finds himself in, you know, having to defend his second lift arrival point, having to defend Browning's headquarters and the Reichsfeld there lurking in the distance, saying, hello, I'm Germany. There could be anything in here. Yeah, you know, shit's getting real because we're not invading France anymore. We're not threatening to take Belgium off the Third Reich. This is Germany. This is the fatherland over there. And that might change attitudes. Maybe not amongst the soldier, because the soldier in a ditch is a soldier in the ditch, wherever he's in the world, but certainly amongst the people in charge and the people calling the Shots and deciding what needs to be defended and how vigorously and all that sort of stuff when we were there on that slope. And also, you know, the folly of two lifts really underlining itself, like, really saying, this is wrong. We got. We got this.

[Joey]

I mean, this is. The other thing is it's a combination of chatting it through.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Joey]

With someone who knows what they're talking about.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Joey]

But also walking the ground and then chatting some more and then reading some more and then chatting a little bit more and then walking a bit more ground. You start to get a pretty clear idea what the hell's going on, actually. Well, you do way that a lot of the Second World War is. It seems so impenetrable and confusing at times.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Joey]

I think, you know, I've really. I've changed my mind this year about Market Garden. I've been sort of, you know, on the fence about it. I really think it was worth the punt. I've really come round to that idea and I really do think it could have worked or it could have achieved the aims that were set out for it. What would have followed as a consequence of that is, I think he's up. Yeah.

[Al Murray]

Of course, it's a completely different thing.

[Joey]

Yeah. But I think. I think as conceived, I think it could have worked. Yeah.

[Al Murray]

Well, I was at an airborne lunch yesterday.

[Joey]

Yeah. Yeah. How was that?

[Al Murray]

It's tremendous. So they're about 60. More than that, actually. There were more than 60 people there current and, you know, was this in your new.

[Joey]

New, new guys.

[Al Murray]

I was being welcomed as the honorary colonel and it was really very, very nice. And a couple of very old boys going, I remember you, and you were four and all this sort of stuff, which was very nice as your dad, as your mum. It's all lovely. Really, really lovely, lovely stuff. Cool.

[Joey]

You've grown up, haven't you? Since all I saw.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, exactly. This old boy called Bob Prosser telling me about when he joined 9 Squadron and how that he wanted to be in the same squadron as John Humphries, who'd fought at Arnhem, you know.

[Joey]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

Who only died very, very recently. And then, you know, a lot of discussion about how Eric Mackay's account of what happens in the school.

[Joey]

Oh, yeah.

[Al Murray]

Because he gets in first. It's become the one that people go to. But he wrote it, he got it first. And he leaves out the people in C company from 3 Para and. And he goes, no one had an overview. There were four blokes. There's four, five, six blokes in each room. That's the story of that battle. There's just blokes in a room, you have no idea what's going on in the next room. You don't know what's going on downstairs.

[Joey]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

You don't know what's going on upstairs.

[Joey]

That's chaos of war.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And kind of saying anyone who tries to make sense of it in their account, it's a fool's errand.

[Joey]

Well, you pulled it off.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. What was really interesting, talking to the colonel, the commanding officer, the regiment and, you know, sapper regiments are really interesting because they're made up of squadrons and the squadrons are all off doing different things. So a sapper regiment has a larger headquarters than a infantry battalion. Right. Because the squadrons are all off doing their own thing.

[Joey]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

So one's deployed here, one's over there, you know, one's doing, you know, airfield protection or airfield maintenance, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. All the multiple roles the engineers have. Right. So it's not like an infantry battalion where, you know, it's obvious what the companies know what to do and all this sort of thing. You know, the companies aren't differently tasked as they are in the Royal Engineers. I was talking the adjutant about that was really, really interesting. But one of the things that currently said, I've been at planning, he says, when I. Every time I read about Market Garden, I think I've been at that meeting every time where the RAF are going, isn't that amazing? Because I don't know that we could do that. And then I said, one of the really interesting things about the. You know that they've got this ongoing problem where they're. The idea is they'll be deployed, they're stand two people and, you know, first Airborne thing is they keep being stood up for stuff and then stood down and they're all keyed up and they're all. They all regard themselves as the absolute bees knees. That's a corrosive thing that eats away at their morale. You know, it's one of Browning's arguments for Market Garden is the morale is being eaten away by this process and basically that's not changed. If you're a thing like 16 Aerosol whose job is to spring into action at the drop of a hat, you're essentially in that same position or you run that risk, put it that way. And that was really interesting to talk about. And then the really, really fascinating was the thing when I said, oh, you know, one of the interesting things in the Market garden orders is that they do say, see Operation Linnet, see Operation Comet, you know, say manifest and all that. And that how that, that becomes an impacting problem, you know, and then a thing that's right for one thing, six weeks ago isn't right for now, you know, but they haven't got time. They haven't got time. And that caused a raised eyebrow. Not a comment, but a raised eyebrow. That, that was a, an ongoing issue. It was fascinating and they're all really tremendous bunch of people.

[Joey]

Fantastic. Where was it?

[Al Murray]

It was in a hotel in town. So there's a new Gurkha squadron has come in. Airborne Gurkha squadron has come into the regiment, which is really, really cool.

[Joey]

That's very cool. So now that you're an honorary colonel, how many kind of events do you have to do?

[Al Murray]

Yeah, I'm going to what I want show up. I've got to show up. But it's showing up saying hello, I can go on exercises if I want.

[Joey]

Are you going to?

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joey]

You're going to go on exercise?

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah. I'm going to turn up on a couple, you know, you want. I want to sit in a Land Rover in the middle of the night, freezing cold, drinking coffee out of a thermos as much as anyone else. But I can show up and there are family days and stuff which I think is really important. And then it's commemoration and all sorts of bits and pieces along the way to go to. Should be good fun. And one or two people asking after my, you know, they are as one of the old boys, one of the two that sort of, oh, your dad's a legend and all that. She was very nice, very nice to hear.

[Joey]

Oh well, we all know that.

[Al Murray]

Well, yeah, but you know, nice to hear it from independent sources, you know.

[Joey]

Well, that's very exciting. So that's another thing that's achievement of the year.

[Al Murray]

We'll take a very quick break and then we'll carry on with our review of the year. I think that's what we're calling it.

[Joey]

Yeah, definitely.

[James Holland]

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[Al Murray]

Welcome back to we have Ways of Making youg Talk. It's the end of 2024 and Jim and I were waxing lyrical. Looking back on the things we've experienced, the things we've learned. We did a bit flying, didn't we, Jim? Was that in May?

[Joey]

That was May. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When we went up in the spit in the gray Spitfire with dear old Richard. I mean, I'm still feeling very, very upset about that. I just can't stop thinking about him. And I think it's because, you know, it's just a life full of so much more promise of exciting things to come. And he was just, he's just such a lovely, lovely fellow.

[Al Murray]

A reminder, isn't it, that this is all. There's a lovely bunch of people around this subject is, I think the thing I'm reaching for. You meet all these fantastic, interesting people, dedicated people, people who've made their lives out of aspects of this subject. And they're all pretty much incredibly generous with their time and their expertise and their knowledge. And you know, he was generous with his Spitfire and his Mustang. It's absurd really. And you know, the body of people around this, you know, it's that old expression if there isn't an in your group of friends, it's probably, you may apply in this instance, but it's an absolute tragedy.

[Joey]

And what a treat he's given us. First of all, flying us in the, in the, in the Mustang a couple of years back and taking my Daisy up as well and making her arguably the youngest person ever to have flown a P51 age 14. I think she was or 13 at the time, you know, and then going up and finding that Spitfire. And I remember just flying around this huge, great, fluffy bank of white cumulus nimbus and just thinking, oh, this just doesn't get better. I mean, you know, one day we can tell the full story of that flight. But one day, it was an amazing day in so many ways.

[Al Murray]

It was the Mayday bank holiday that.

[Joey]

Yeah, it was. Yeah, it was that Monday, wasn't it? Six months. And then. So I went, you were on tour and you can come. But I then went, did that air show, which, apart from the fact that Richard was so poorly, was an amazing, amazing occasion. I mean, just some of the planes he'd got assembled spoke volumes about him, but it was incredible to see them. And, yeah, my love affair with the P38 Lightning continued that. That day. It was very, very sexy. We owe Richard and Sophie Wright, his sidekick there at a lease and we owe them a huge debt because they also brought the planes to we have Waste Fest.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, they did, yeah.

[Joey]

Which was extremely kind of them. Hugely appreciated. You know, how lucky are we? We get to talk about this stuff. We get to find out all sorts of exciting things. We get to meet lots of really, really interesting people and, you know, occasionally we even get to kind of play with some of these things. And, yeah, you know, they might have been designed as weapons of war, but now they can just be enjoyed for the magnificence of the engineering and the.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Joey]

Sound they make and what they represent and the shape of the wings or the shape of the turret. I mean, the other highlight was. And got inside that crocodile, wasn't it?

[Al Murray]

Incredible, you know, amazing.

[Joey]

Still hoping that's going to be a.

[Al Murray]

We have Waste Fest 5, with any luck, for fun. Putting the fun into fun. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Joey]

And this has all happened before. We've even got to D Day, you know.

[Al Murray]

I know. So then we went out, we did some walking the ground, filming in Normandy, didn't we?

[Joey]

Great fun with Ben and co. Yeah.

[Al Murray]

And then we were in Normandy for D Day and that was a really fantastic trip. Really, really great fun. Driving around in the. The Avant.

[Joey]

Yeah. With Tony and Joey.

[Al Murray]

Tony and Joey. But no, I mean, that was a fantastic week. I ran into Nigel Farage.

[Joey]

Yeah, I've forgotten that. I was doing my BBC with the lovely Kirsty Young and Catherine Parkinson.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. Vernon Kay, we discovered, is a massive Richard Burton fan and has.

[Joey]

Aren't we all.

[Al Murray]

All sorts of Richard Burton memorabilia from where Eagles Dare.

[Joey]

I thought he was into war. Full stop. As well.

[Al Murray]

I think he is. Yeah. Certainly when we filmed Arromanche, he knew more about it than I thought he might. Which is terrible of me, really, because after all, the afflicted lurk in all corners.

[Joey]

The afflicted lurking.

[Al Murray]

We are legion. Yes, exactly. Don't be patronizing. Quite right. That was a good little trip. And we stayed in a very nice pension just outside Bayeux. We went into Bayeux for lunch.

[Joey]

Yes.

[Al Murray]

It was a really good trip each time. The weather has been incredibly kind to us, isn't it?

[Joey]

Yeah. Absolutely extraordinary. Yeah. And I had the amazing experience of going to Burju.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Joey]

Which is where the Sherwood Rangers had this big thing. And finding the remains of Frank Galvin's tank. And then setting up this idea with thanks to Tuggy Mayer, who's a friend I've got to know from doing some of the tours. Actually came on the Malta trip he did year before last or whenever it was. And Tuggy and I came across. Well, it was Tuggy's idea in the first place. I've got to give him full credit for creating a memorial to the eight men of the Sherwood Rangers who died there. And that's taken certain amount of flight. Stuart. Bertie's come up with an amazing design and hopefully we'll get that in for next August 16th.

[Al Murray]

Amazing.

[Joey]

And one of the things I am planning to do is organize a little sponsored walk from the Gold beach all the way down to that spot following the course of the Sherwood Rangers to raise money for it.

[Al Murray]

I've had my idea from my sponsored march next year for Fiddley's Touch. Right.

[Joey]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

You know, there's a loose plan to go and see Iron Maiden in arnhem.

[Joey]

Yeah. Yeah. 23rd of July. Got it in the diary.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. Yeah. I'm gonna walk from Joe's Bridge to Arnhem to get to the concert.

[Joey]

Yeah. But. Yeah, I'm up for that.

[Al Murray]

That's a good idea. In it.

[Joey]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah. That works, doesn't it?

[Joey]

Yeah. How. How far is that?

[Al Murray]

60 miles. Three days.

[Joey]

Sign me up. I'm so there. Let's do it.

[Al Murray]

Brilliant.

[Joey]

All right, so we do that and then we do. And I'm. I'm definitely doing the other one as well.

[Al Murray]

Great.

[Joey]

Got to work out when to do it.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, you gotta work out when to fit it in. So that was a really, really great trip. Trip to Normandy and. And then over the summer. What else have we got up to? Well, over the summer, then I read this is one of the interesting things about the way the job shaped Up. I have to read your books because I do the audience.

[Joey]

Yes. You have this weird, weird week and a bit of being me.

[Al Murray]

And I found that what I really loved about the casino is first of all, the thing with the diaries where basically because it's diaries, it's not. Well, I remember going up that hill and it was. Was worse than they say in history books. There's none of that. Right. It's people's thoughts as soon as they can get them down. Right.

[Joey]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

Which changes your relationship with the words as a reader for a start. Right. And then the fact that you do that thing of. Some of them. They're just diaries in archives that have been found or donated and the person who's writing them was killed in action or killed in an accident or. Or dies of whatever, their wounds or whatever. And that just completely transforms your relationship with those witnesses.

[Joey]

Yeah, it doesn't. It.

[Al Murray]

There's no better way of making a diary feel real than the protagonist buying it.

[Joey]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

Without being sort of morbid about it. No better way about reinforcing what a diary actually is.

[Joey]

When they died, I really wanted them to die quickly. Yeah. I didn't want to do lots of sort of foreshadowing. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't want to do all those kind of shots you get in a movie where, you know, he's just about to get it.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Joey]

I wanted to come like a bolt out of the blue.

[Al Murray]

Well, they all do. They all do. The one in particular where I can't remember who it is, but where basically you just go, he's killed. Did what? And you're like, huh. I think that because after all, because it is 80 years ago the thing to try and present it as a. As a moment that was now.

[Joey]

Well, you know, we've had a lot of talks about. I'm determined to do it, this writing in the present tense and keep it. Absolutely. I mean, whether I do it with Atlantic or whether I save it for the bulges, because that's the next two things I'm doing. But that's up for grabs. But I'm definitely going to do it at some point. Funny enough, I've just been asked to do Approached about doing a short piece for Audible.

[Al Murray]

Right.

[Joey]

And they want me to do that whole kind of non fiction fiction. So I've got to do 45,000 words on Dunkirk.

[Al Murray]

Really.

[Joey]

I'm gonna fictionalize it.

[Al Murray]

You.

[Joey]

So you write it as a novel, 45,000 word novel, novella. Then you have to go back over it and you have to sort of semi Dramatize it because they get actors in to play the parts and they do the whole Dolby surrounding sound effects.

[Al Murray]

So there'd be someone saying some. We must. We must evacuate now.

[Joey]

Well, yeah, but also. Oh, get down, mate. There's another studio coming.

[Al Murray]

Oh, really? There's all that kind of give my number. Yeah, that's really cool, Jim. That's a really interesting.

[Joey]

Yeah, so that'll be interesting. And if it works, then. So they get the rights to it for a bit, then you can publish it. So you can then publish them as these little short. You know, because if the first one works and you might do another one, you might do something like Epsom.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Joey]

You know, like Six Days of Epsom. It'd be great.

[Al Murray]

Wouldn't it be brilliant? That'd be absolutely brilliant.

[Joey]

45,000 words. Bish, Bash, Bosch done. You know, I mean, I've known for overwriting a little bit, and this would be a very good discipline. Anyway, so that's all for 2025. And that's exciting.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, that is very.

[Joey]

By the way, thank you. I'm totally grateful for you for. For reading it and reading all of them. I mean, my audiobooks have got to say, the sales have gone up enormously since he started doing them.

[Al Murray]

I'll pass that on to my representatives. I mean, the thing I do really like about is, as a thing to have to do is you have to read the book. Right. There's none of that thing of, you know, you leave it by your bed and you come back to it three weeks later. You have to read the damn book from start to finish.

[Joey]

Yeah. And you can't just skim a bit.

[Al Murray]

No, no, no, no, you can't.

[Joey]

First of all, before we get on to the next project, how did you find reading your own book?

[Al Murray]

Horrible?

[Joey]

Did you?

[Al Murray]

Yeah, absolutely horrible.

[Joey]

Didn't you occasionally think, oh, that's actually all right, that bit?

[Al Murray]

Well, no, yeah, but those moments are crowded out by the bit. Think, oh, Jesus Christ, what idiot wrote this? The bits where I often. Which I think are the hardest to write are essentially the bit where you're saying, okay, here's this unit, that unit, that unit. They're at this location.

[Joey]

This is the reason why I'm saying nightmare. It's so difficult.

[Al Murray]

The exposition before you get into the drama. I find really, really difficult.

[Joey]

The worst bit, because you got to explain so much because otherwise people's not going to know what's going on. But you don't want to bore people today. It's such a hard balance. How do you make it interesting.

[Al Murray]

How do you make it gleam? It's very, very difficult, really difficult. And sometimes you want to go, the men at the bridge were, you know, or wherever the men had arrived at the crossroads. They were exhausted and you know, you edit it's going to go which men? What crossroads? And you're like, I'm going to get to that. But just we need some crumbs here to draw the reader in somehow.

[Joey]

Oh my God. I've been trying to follow the course of this 17 year old guy from the battle from Zelo Heights to all the way across Berlin and beyond.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Joey]

Oh my God. Trying to piece that together.

[Al Murray]

Difficult.

[Joey]

Really, really difficult because you know, that's a really good bit. But also where the hell is he? And then you go out come the Google maps and you're trying to work out where he is. Ah, okay. Because some things, you're reading his account and you think that just makes no sense at all. So then you got to try and work out what it is he's saying.

[Al Murray]

Yep. What does he really mean?

[Joey]

What does he really mean? Unbelievable account though. I mean really. Whoa.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, go on. Well, like where did you find it first of all?

[Joey]

Well, I read it years ago. I think it's called Berlin Soldier by Helmut Altner and it's based on his diary.

[Al Murray]

Right.

[Joey]

He ended up being a very well respected journalist post war, but at the time he was 17. He was recruited at the end of March, gets sent off to flipping Zelo Heights and he's part of the ninth army. That gets sort of.

[Al Murray]

Right.

[Joey]

Most of ninth army gets completely surrounded, annihilated. But he, he's one of the few that sort of gets back and they end up having this huge fight around Spandau in the Olympic stadium at the beginning of May. Then they're told they've got to break out on the 9th, 2nd of May. So okay, it's ridiculous. They get told things like, no, all we got to do is you just got to get through the Doberitz training area and then, then we'll meet up with Venk's army and then they'll counter attack, it'll all be fine, they'll see off the Russians and then you can have a kind of rest for three weeks. Yeah, Everyone goes, yeah, okay, great, let's do it then. And it just, every part of that is just total and total nonsense.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, Yeah. I met a guy at. 20 years ago at the Olympic stadium when we were filming there. I met, we met this old boy walking his dog and we were talking about, you know, because they murdered a load of people, dumped a load of bodies by the Olympic stadium in one of the of parks next to the Olympic stadium. And this old boy walk his dog come by and he goes, what are you doing? He said, well, we were filming about the last year of the war, the end of the war. And he goes, oh, yeah, I remember. I remember. And you're like, oh, God, this is too good to be true. He says, yeah, you know, obviously the Russians were in Berlin. So I thought, well, we've probably lost the war. And then a jet flew by me, 262 flew overhead like a low like that. And I thought, oh, wouldn't have often have arrived. We're going to be all right.

[Joey]

Can you believe it? That's amazing. Isn't it? Isn't it?

[Al Murray]

And you think this is what people were thinking?

[Joey]

Well, I've also been thinking about, you know, just how the insanity of it goes right up to the top. So Keitel and Dernis. So Donitz takes over.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joey]

When he tops himself and he goes, you know, the number one thing, the reason for not. You know, obviously we realized we had to bring the war to a conclusion straight away, but also what we were really concerned about was that the 3 million German troops that, you know, we had to get them away from the Russians. Mate, you can't do that. Okay, okay. There's one bridge over the Elba. It's destroyed.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Joey]

You know, only about 15 people can go over at any one time through the ruins of this bridge going Tangamunda.

[Al Murray]

Okay.

[Joey]

You're not gonna get 3 million people over there.

[Al Murray]

No.

[Joey]

Stop the war, because the longer it continues, the more people are going to die.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Joey]

And you kind of think, you know, what the heck are they thinking?

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Joey]

How can they be so deluded that they think at this stage of the war they're going to be able to get 3 million people across the River Elba?

[Al Murray]

But it's always been deluded. And it's one of those things where.

[Joey]

It'S always been deluded. This is literally what I just wrote before we came on air.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. The whole thing has always been deluded. And the delusions continue even when, you know, reality couldn't be biting any harder. It's very, very, you know, it's like. Like Himmler trying to negotiate with world Jewry at the end of the war.

[Joey]

That's just unbelievable. But anyway, so just to get back to it, so we had an amazing time in Arnhem. Two trips over there.

[Al Murray]

Incredible time.

[Joey]

Then we had that incredible trip to Guernsey Again, you know, we talk about delusional. You look at some of that. The underground hospital. Why make it underground? Well, what's wrong with wooden huts on the top?

[Al Murray]

Well, there's some thought that it originally it was just going to be an ammunition dump or a hardened headquarters or something, and then they switch it to being hospital.

[Joey]

But still, I repeat, why.

[Al Murray]

Couldn't agree with you more. I mean. Yeah, the whole thing, completely bananas. And then of course, well, there's. The festival was in the July. I mean, this is. The. One of the things is we need to. It keeps.

[Joey]

Yes. Our chronological tour of the War of the Year is already working.

[Al Murray]

Let's scroll back to July because July was absolutely amazing. The festival was absolutely amazing.

[Joey]

So much fun. So much, so much fun.

[Al Murray]

Every aspect of it. Bit like sort of bigger and plumper, but with the. For me, I know that people who've been since the beginning, the thing they're concerned about is the vibe retaining. For me, the vibe does feel exactly the same. There's still the business of. I absolutely love the fact that we're meeting the listeners. I love the fact walking from one side of the site to the other means you. You shake hands, you take photos, you know, you rudely ask for selfies.

[Joey]

I love the fact that everyone who's there, he's just so happy to be there. There is a sort of collective joyousness. Yeah. To be there as we commemorate the slaughter and mayhem of the Second World War. But that paradox, I think, is easily squared because what we're interested in is the incredible drama of the Second World War. We want to know more because it is so fascinating and we enjoy each other's company in our shared interest in that fascination. And that's absolutely fine point.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I found that all the sort of. Also the kind of entertainment end of it all was really tremendous fun.

[Joey]

Well, the review was good fun today. Wasn't it fun?

[Al Murray]

It was really good fun to do. And you know, now we've done one, we have a feeling we might do another and what we might put in it.

[Joey]

What.

[Al Murray]

What didn't work.

[Joey]

Well, we got some great people already lined up for next year. We always said we weren't going to really get onto the program until January, but obviously we have been doing a little bit of stuff going along and lining a few things up. So that's been exciting. And also we had our great stunt. Our greats.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Joey]

For 2025, which is again, has been one of the year's highlights because that was one of the funniest moments, driving in a not a tank across Lambeth Bridge.

[Al Murray]

The not a tank discourse, by the way. We sent that spiraling off all the way across the Internet.

[Joey]

Oh, my God.

[Al Murray]

At least as many social media platforms as possible where people arguing about whether it's a tank or not.

[Joey]

And obviously now we're kind of. You and I are collaborating on a book together for the first time, which.

[Al Murray]

Is, yeah, really exciting. Yeah, yeah.

[Joey]

That's been really. I've just found it so interesting how, I mean, really, you know, what started off as your idea going, why don't we do a put on all the surrenders? And you're sort of thinking, yeah, okay, I can see how that's going to be out sort of, you know, people snogging in green park on the 8th of May and all that kind of stuff. But actually, that's the boring bit. But it's really interesting. It's all these incredible characters that actually are driving these stories.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Joey]

You know, Ike being utterly exhausted. The huge responsibility on Truman's shoulders. The extraordinary misconstruing of terminology and words with the Japanese.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Joey]

The absolute total shit show going on in Berlin. He's just amazing.

[Al Murray]

It's amazing. And what you've got is people, you know, I mean, because I think it's really interesting.

[Joey]

It's a much richer, deeper, more profound, thought provoking and frankly, interesting book than I had thought it was going to be be. Yeah, I'm pretty proud of it, actually. I think it's going to be great.

[Al Murray]

I'm really enjoying. I mean, you know, Bill has just sent over the edit of my chat about V E Day, which I've, you know, looked at kind of really from what does Churchill do? What's he saying?

[Joey]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was great. I really enjoyed that.

[Al Murray]

Rhetoric is so important as the sort of part of the Churchill story. So what's his rhetoric on VE Day? What's he actually saying? And I think that's really, really interesting. So he starts, when he does broadcasts, he says, this is an imperial and allied effort, our noble allies, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But then when he's with the crowd, he's going, we were alone and were we downhearted and all that. That is just. It's fascinating watching him, but also it's kind of his last hurrah, isn't it?

[Joey]

Looking at through your prism because you are, after all, part of the time, an entertainer.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joey]

And you go on stage and you read your audience and he's doing exactly the same thing. So you must be able to recognize that in.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, completely.

[Joey]

Yeah. And I think that perspective is really interesting.

[Al Murray]

What the words are doing and what he's doing with the words and the difference between a speech that's extemporized and one that's obviously stuff he's been churning in his mind and. And all this sort of stuff for a while. And you do get the feeling that, like Montgomery, when he's taking the surrender and his staff are going, they're all watching him and going, he's been practicing this. This in his head for years. That Churchill obviously is just got a lot. Even though they are being driven crazy by the Soviets. You know, there's that really fantastic thing right at the end of VE day where the Downing street message, the charge d' affaires in Moscow and say we're utterly indifferent to anything the Soviets say by way of propaganda. No one here believes a single word. You know, that's on the evening of VE Day. They're saying that in London to.

[Joey]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Al Murray]

To Moscow.

[Joey]

Isn't that amazing? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I think what happens is they. I think, think Ruser is too quick to go along with and be impressed by Uncle Joe, at Stalin, at Yalt, comes back, realizes what a mistake he's made.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Joey]

In his misjudgment, says I'm never going to trust him again. That is the moment. It's like March 1945, where suddenly it's kind of, these guys are our potential next enemies.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Joey]

That is very much the weight that's on the shoulders of Truman.

[Al Murray]

But then at the same time, because there is, you know, at Rams, you've got Yodel going, you know, that it's going to be America versus the Russians. Now he's saying that to the British. He says it's a strong. He says, you know, you know that, don't you? Issue. And Yodel's right, but he's wrong at how he's arrived at that conclusion. But he happens to be. It's one of those things. He happens to be. Right. Yeah. Sheer luck. He's obviously trying to spare himself the noose and all that. There's all that going on. But, yeah, no, it's been very interesting to write about. And also that thing of single days where lots happens or important things happen, which is sort of loaded and weighted. I think it's a, you know, very interesting way of trying to be in a present moment again. What was it like? And I think, you know, I've got those mass Observation people. And obviously because of who, who mass observation is and who's attracted to it, you have them going. Well, you know, I didn't hear enough mention of this. I don't feel the feeling that, you know, because of mass observations attitude is very much comes from a left of Social Democrat point of view. They're a bit sniffy about some things I think sometimes, but even they, they have to go. The crowds are having a fantastic time. It's one of those moments where you can't really say, ah, but did people celebrate victory in Europe that day?

[Joey]

Yes, they did.

[Al Murray]

You can't get an hour of Channel 4 out of this. You know what I mean?

[Joey]

No, no, no, no, no.

[Al Murray]

People really are genuinely pleased.

[Joey]

So this book is coming out in April and yes, just very briefly before we bid you Christmas farewell, looking forward into the new Year, we're off to the Arden. Yes, we're going to do a Walking the Ground series on that and we're also going to do a big series for the podcast on it because I think it is a big moment, a big event. Event. So we're going to be walking the ground and covering that then. Lots of victory stuff. Yeah, we've been talking about doing the Philippines. We might have a look at that.

[Al Murray]

Well, and more stuff in the Pacific with John.

[Joey]

Yeah, yeah. And obviously crossing the Rhine. And we've got Operation Veritable. I quality to a number of that. I like to do a little mini series on Veritable. Quite good. So we've got all sorts of stuff.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, we need to get someone in to talk about the atomic bomb as well. Explain what that is.

[Joey]

We have got a few guests again coming in in the new year, haven't we? Got some quite interesting people. People coming. So.

[Al Murray]

And the festival of course.

[Joey]

And then of course. And of course there's Rogue Heroes starts on 1st of January. Yeah, Rogue Heroes season 2. We've got the Peaky Blinders spin off coming out at the end of the year. So all sorts of exciting things.

[Al Murray]

All sorts.

[Joey]

Damien Lewis is Group Captain James Stagg as we speak.

[Al Murray]

Yes, of course.

[Joey]

And Brendan Fraser is Eisenhower. Anyway, so lots to come in and of course we have ways. Foonf.

[Al Murray]

Yes.

[Joey]

And Chalk in the summer Chalk History Festival. Yeah, we're going to be there in June, so come on down for that as well. Yeah, lots of stuff.

[Al Murray]

There's lots of stuff.

[Joey]

And sponsor walks, of course.

[Al Murray]

Yes, there's the. The end of the war to happen. That's the thing that's gonna be in the podcast. And then the year after we'll be set free from the tyranny of the Chronology Gym.

[Joey]

Yeah, yeah, it'd be great. But anyway, it's all been great fun as always and huge thanks to everyone who's been listening and follows us and engages and comes on battlefield tours and comes to we have ways fest and joins the A sidebar of shame. It's been fantastic.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, we would be the tree falling in a forest with no one listen hearing it if it weren't for you listening to us. So.

[Joey]

And of course, special thanks to Joey. Yeah, Joey, who is our guide, our inspiration, who tidies us up, who tells us to shut up when we're going on too long and who is very much the kind of the third person in this.

[Al Murray]

He's the world's greatest cat herder. Yes, let's be honest now, that's it. That cat herding he has had to do this year, sometimes cats in armored vehicles as well.

[Joey]

And actually, the day this comes out, we will be having a knees up. So we'll be raising a glass all round on next Thursday night or everyone.

[Al Murray]

We'Re grateful for and everyone we've worked with this year, those we've spoken to, those we've lost as well along the way. Thank you so much for listening. We hope you have a wonderful, wonderful Christmas and a happy New Year. Please take your glasses back to the bar. That's what I usually say, the end of a show. Cheerio. Cheerio.