Hiroshima: Dropping The Bomb

Summary

WW2 Pod: We Have Ways of Making You Talk

Episode: Hiroshima: Dropping The Bomb

Release Date: August 11, 2025
Hosts: Comedian Al Murray and Historian James Holland
Guest: Ian McGregor

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Introduction to the Atomic Mission

The episode delves into the intricate and pivotal mission of dropping the first atomic bomb on Hiroshima during World War II. Al Murray, James Holland, and special guest Ian McGregor provide a detailed exploration of the preparation, execution, and aftermath of this monumental event.

Notable Quote:

"Neil Armstrong referred to the Apollo 11 moon landing as a test flight. They were seeing if they could do it or not. This is why these cities have been selected, because they've not been bombed before."
— Al Murray [01:10]

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Preparation and Planning

The discussion begins with the formation of the 509th Composite Group by Paul Tibbets Jr., stationed on Tinian Island in the Marianas. The group meticulously prepared for the mission, ensuring secrecy and readiness.

• Tinian Air Base: Described as a rocky atoll with a compressed coral runway, Tinian was ideal for launching the B29 bombers.
• Training: Crews practiced with dummy bombs ("pumpkins") to acclimate to the weight and handling of the atomic bomb. They also conducted practice runs over the Japanese home islands to avoid raising suspicions about their true mission.

Notable Quote:

"Tiritz had the 509th now on Tinian tucked away in their secret part of the base. Armed guards, barbed wire... it's a rocky atoll."
— Ian McGregor [02:07]

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The Enola Gay and Its Crew

The centerpiece of the mission, the B29 bomber named the Enola Gay, was meticulously prepared. The crew, led by Paul Tibbets, included seasoned airmen like Captain Robert Lewis, Bombardier Major Tom Ferebee, Navigator Van Kirk, and weaponeers Captain Deke Parsons and Lieutenant Maurice Jepsen.

• Naming the Aircraft: Tibbets named the plane after his mother, a decision that caused tension with his co-pilot, Captain Lewis.

Notable Quote:

"It's the Enola Gay, which is named after Tibbets's mother. Right. And she was happy about that."
— Ian McGregor [11:07]

• Security Measures: The aircraft's insignia was altered from an arrowhead to an "R" to confuse Japanese identification efforts.

Notable Quote:

"The crew that are going to go with Tibbets, it was ostensibly the crew, the key people... They never got on after the war."
— Ian McGregor [11:06]

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Final Preparations and Briefings

On the afternoon of August 5th, the crew underwent final briefings. Unbeknownst to them initially, they were about to deploy the world's first atomic weapon.

• Cyanide Pills: Secretly provided by the base surgeon, the crew was instructed not to surrender if the mission failed, a detail revealed only post-war.

Notable Quote:

"The surgeon on the base then secretly gives Tibbets a stash of cyanide pills. The reason is you're not to be taken alive."
— Ian McGregor [15:39]

• Crew Dynamics: Tibbets maintained strict leadership, leading to lingering tensions with crew members like Lewis, who felt sidelined.

Notable Quote:

"I'm flying the plane, I'm commander of the operation... You are not the one flying the plane."
— Captain Tibbets [11:42]

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The Bombing Run Over Hiroshima

At 1:45 AM on August 6th, the Enola Gay took off from Tinian. The bomber climbed to a cruising altitude of 30,000 feet, a notably higher altitude than typical B29 missions, ensuring a clear and precise bomb drop.

• Bombing Sequence: At approximately 8:15 AM Hiroshima time, Bombardier Ferebee released "Little Boy," the uranium gun-type fission bomb.

Notable Quote:

"At 8:15, Hiroshima time, Ferebee releases little boy. The bomb falls for 43 seconds and spinning..."
— Al Murray [28:30]

• Detonation Mechanism: The bomb was programmed to explode at an altitude of 1,925 feet to maximize the blast effect through an airburst.

Notable Quote:

"They want an air burst to maximize the effect of the bomb. They don't want it burying itself in the earth."
— Al Murray [29:04]

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Immediate Aftermath in Hiroshima

The explosion resulted in unprecedented devastation:

• Blast Impact: The bomb created a fireball with temperatures exceeding those of the sun's surface, vaporizing everything within a half-mile radius.
• Casualties: Initial deaths ranged between 66,000 to 75,000, with total fatalities doubling in the subsequent weeks due to injuries and radiation poisoning.
• Destruction of Infrastructure: Approximately 80% of housing was destroyed, and essential medical facilities were annihilated.

Notable Quote:

"The shadows of vaporized people burned into the concrete is just extraordinary, isn't it?"
— James Holland [32:27]

• Survivor Accounts: Stories highlighted the randomness of survival, such as individuals protected by collapsing buildings.

Notable Quote:

"Most of the people that survive... is because the building's fallen on them and protects them from the heat blast."
— Ian McGregor [31:49]

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Return to Tinian and Reactions

After the mission, the Enola Gay returned to Tinian, where the crew was met with a mix of relief and restrained celebration.

• Mission Success Declared: Confirmation of the bomb's detonation was broadcast, marking a significant turning point in the war.
• Leadership Dynamics: General Curtis LeMay expressed eagerness for subsequent missions, highlighting the strategic shift towards atomic warfare.

Notable Quote:

"Have we got any more of those? Well, yeah, we are making more."
— General LeMay and Paul Tibbets [36:30]

• President Truman’s Reaction: Briefed on the mission's success, Truman deemed it "the greatest thing in history."

Notable Quote:

"Truman reportedly says this is the greatest thing in history."
— Ian McGregor [38:14]

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Reflections and Legacy

The hosts and guest reflect on the profound and lasting impact of the Hiroshima bombing:

• Technological Escalation: The atomic bomb marked a dramatic leap in warfare technology, symbolizing both strategic advantage and moral dilemma.

Notable Quote:

"This is the pinnacle of... the atomic bomb, the perfect logical extension of strategic bombing."
— Al Murray [40:28]

• Human Perspective: The crew's mixed emotions—from initial triumph to the haunting implications of their actions—underscore the complex human dimensions of war.

Notable Quote:

"They must have had two reactions because he must have had six hours coming back thinking, yeah, what have we done?"
— Ian McGregor [34:05]

• Historical Significance: The episode emphasizes how the dropping of the atomic bomb not only ended World War II but also ushered in the nuclear age, forever altering global geopolitics and raising ethical questions that resonate to this day.

Notable Quote:

"It's one of the most famous, infamous episodes in the history of the world... blend of technical stuff, science, but never losing sight of the immense human drama."
— James Holland [42:16]

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Conclusion

"Hiroshima: Dropping The Bomb" offers a comprehensive and nuanced examination of one of history's most consequential military actions. Through expert analysis and engaging storytelling, the episode highlights the delicate balance between strategic necessity and moral responsibility, providing listeners with a profound understanding of the events that shaped the modern world.

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Book Mentioned:

• "Hiroshima Men" by Ian McGregor

Closing Thoughts: The episode concludes with reflections on the crew's post-war lives and the enduring legacy of the atomic bomb in shaping international relations and warfare ethics.

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For more detailed discussions and insights, visit Goalhanger Podcasts or join the membership club at Patreon for exclusive content.

Transcript

[Al Murray]

Thank you for listening to. We have ways of making you talk. Sign up to our Patreon to receive bonus content, live streams and our weekly newsletter with money off books and museum visits as well. Plus early access to all live show tickets. That's patreon.com we haveways welcome to. We have ways of making you talk with me, Al Murray, James Holland, and with our Special guest, Ian McGregor for part two of special bombing mission number 13, the atomic bombing of Hiroshima. And Ian, in the last episode, you took us through the physics of the thing to the establishment, the Manhattan Project via tube alloys, the development of the B29, which is as critical to this story as there's any other part of it, because otherwise, what are you going to do? Stick it in a Lancaster?

[James Holland]

Yep.

[Ian McGregor]

Well, they had that discussion.

[Al Murray]

Paul Tibbets Jr. Has formed the 509th Composite Group. He's got them ready.

[James Holland]

And they've arrived on Tinian, haven't they?

[Al Murray]

They're there, yeah, they're there. They're ready to go. The targets have been selected, the principal primary target, secondary target, and the tertiary target. So there's lots of contingency built into this. And I think the thing that was really striking at the end of the last episode was the fact that these are tests still. Neil Armstrong referred to the Apollo 11 moon landing as a test flight. They were seeing if they could do it or not. And this is the sort of peculiarly kind of in the same spirit, isn't it? This is right on the edge of what they think they can do. Will it work? This is why these cities have been selected, because they've not been bombed before. So you could, you know, it's a blank sheet of paper in that regard for the new weapon. So what are their orders for this bombing mission?

[Ian McGregor]

You said they've been on Tinian Air Base for a couple of months.

[James Holland]

And we should just say, for those who don't know, Tinian is an island in the Marianas. We have talked about its capture in 1944 in an earlier episode.

[Ian McGregor]

It's roughly about 1500 miles to the southeast of the Japanese home island. So perfect launch pad for conventional bombing. And Tiritz had the 509th now on Tinian tucked away in their secret part of the base. Armed guards, barbed wire, and, yeah, it must have been surreal life there on basically a rocky atoll where the Runway is just basically compressed coral. Largest runways in the world. They have been training. They've been training both on dropping what they call pumpkins, which are dud bombs or made up Bombs that are the same weight, about 4,000kg, just so the crews can get used to taking off and landing with that kind of, you know, weight in the bomb bay. And, and they've even gone over to the south island of Japan because part of the top secret ness of the operation was he wanted the Japanese not to think it strange that single B29s were coming across into Japanese aerospace on the home islands in the south. So again, they were doing that, just doing practice runs.

[Al Murray]

Incredible.

[Ian McGregor]

Yeah, very well planned. And he wanted to get the crews there too. So, yeah, the primary target when Curtis LeMay himself, who was now running the 20th Bomber Command, so he's the big cheese in that part of the Pacific. And I did detect that when I was doing the research. There's definitely a hierarchy, political hierarchy within the military of who gets to say what to whom, who finds out, etc. Etc. And that's why when LeMay gives special mission number 13 to Tibbets, he tells him, you know, this order has been given to 32 other commanders around various bases in the near vicinity of the area, including Iwo Jima, etc. Etc. And it's showing that primary target is going to be Hiroshima. An urban industrial area and key military command center has a population about 300,000. Secondary target will be Kokura, which has huge, bigger than Hiroshima, but huge weapons arsenal, military facilities, depots, that kind of thing. It's a central hub. And then the tertiary target is Nagasaki, which was to the north of where they were going to bomb Hiroshima. Major ship, major port, major shipbuilding area, industrial hub. And what we will see when we look at both bombings is with. I think what would condemn Hiroshima is the fact that it's built on a vast plain that runs out into the sea, so it's split by several rivers. So the bomb blast is going to be huge because it's just going to decimate it.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Ian McGregor]

Whereas Nagasaki is built on a series of rolling hills which can contain the blast.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Ian McGregor]

And I suppose Tibbets and the crew are happy in terms of within a 50 mile radius of their operational flight. There's going to be no other friendly aircraft that are going to clear the skies of any Japanese interceptions. And crucially, the US Navy has promised them that there will be almost like a safety blanket of ships and submarines that are going to take them all the way through, past, just past Okinawa, in case they have to ditch in the sea. That's ostensibly what he's been told. And then he will brief the crews that are going to go, not Just on the strike plane, but on the planes that are going to accompany his plane and then the weather planes too.

[Al Murray]

And the bomb itself has arrived, this uranium gun, fission bomb, which is the. You fire the two pieces or one piece of uranium into the other to create a critical mass and to get the bomb to go fissile.

[Ian McGregor]

Exactly, yeah. It's a charge of cordite that's fired through a hollow cylinder of U235. It goes through the artillery barrel and into a much bigger solid cylinder of U235, and that's what's going to create the explosion. And interesting anecdote again from the research when I was at Los Alamos is 64 kg of enriched U235 were in that bomb and only 1.7% of it fissioned.

[Al Murray]

What?

[Ian McGregor]

Yeah, the rest of it was just, just destroyed in the. In a conventional. It just. The rest of it just blew up right as frag, didn't ignite. So only 1.7% of that enriched uranium in Little Boy did that damage to Hiroshima.

[Al Murray]

Dear God.

[James Holland]

Wow, that's absolutely amazing.

[Ian McGregor]

Imagine if the whole thing that. And if anyone, again, anyone's listening that's been to Hiroshima, you'll know it's just a fantastically beautiful mountain range surround the city like a horseshoe in a horseshoe formation. Yeah, I thought that. I just thought, well, that mountain range wouldn't be there for a start.

[Al Murray]

No.

[James Holland]

Well, you think it would have destroyed that as well? Yeah, well, and the other interesting about it is, is that although it's called Little Boy, it's actually quite a big boy because it's 12ft long, it's got a diameter of 28 inches, it's over 9,000 pounds, which in modern money is about four and a half tons cylindrical. It's a pretty blunt nose, isn't it? And it's got the four stabilizing tail fins.

[Ian McGregor]

The bulk of it had been shipped out famously or infamously on the USS Indianapolis. So that's the mechanical parts to actually construct the bomb. And. And then the main fissile material that was flown out later.

[James Holland]

So it's all put together on Tinian.

[Ian McGregor]

Yeah, yeah. So within Tibbets secret base, within the base of 20th Bomber Command, the one that's, you know, got ultimate security. I mean, they even frisk Curtis LeMay when he wants to go in there to have a look at the bomb. They say, well, you're not coming. You know, give me your cigar. You're not having that. It's in a weapons pit technical area. And that's where the weapon is from the Manhattan Project are there too, within the overall command? There is no, as we would see, a logical military command structure within that area. It's called the Tinian chiefs, and they're the ones that are going to give the go ahead for Tibbets to actually launch the strike. The mission orders have come through, but they'll decide when it's ready to go. And they were made up of a team of air chiefs and scientists from the Manhattan Project. So they are the ones deciding to go. And that's famously where they have the arguments. It's like you just described, Jim, about the bomb. The bomb's so big, they're just worried because they've seen it with conventional bombing of B29s taking off from this. This Runway, the sea around the islands littered with wrecks from those that have either crashed on takeoff or crashed on landing. There's a genuine fear from the Manhattan Project team that are there, especially. One of the key weapon is Captain Deke Parsons of the US Navy. He's the one who's going to arm the bomb on the Enola Gay. He's raised his hand and said, you know, I am genuinely worried, you know, we shouldn't be taking off with the bomb armed because if anything happens, I mean, such a crude thing.

[James Holland]

Yeah, I'm still reading from your. Only 1.7% of his explosive power being being used.

[Al Murray]

I mean.

[James Holland]

Holy moly.

[Al Murray]

But yes. I mean, he's concerned that if they crash, the bomb will. The bomb will detonate. Right. And destroy Tinian and any variant in between, rather than. Rather than on the target.

[Ian McGregor]

Right, exactly. That's a genuine concern. They listen to him. The Tinian chief listened to him, said, yeah, okay, so what we'll do is once you do take off, you'll get to a cruising altitude roughly around 5,000ft. And that's where you can crawl back through the crawl space from the cockpit into the bomb bay and arm the bomb. And again, very, very fortunate to get access to that B29 at RAF Duxford. And I crawled through. Well, I tried. I looked. I didn't crawl through. I looked through the crawl space and I said, God, I wouldn't want to go through there. No, it's very claustrophobic.

[James Holland]

Yeah, not just that, you know, you're arming in the world's first atomic bomb that's going to be dropped on a military target. I mean, imagine if you had the shakes.

[Ian McGregor]

Exactly. He's literally in the bomber at 5,000ft, crawled through, got into the bomb bay.

[James Holland]

I mean in the Second World, I mean I know people do amazing things all the time. There are what people were asked to do and expected to do in the Second World War is quite astonishing, isn't it? And this has got to be right up there.

[Ian McGregor]

Yeah. Military orders hadn't got up to speed with technology in terms of, you know, I mean that is literally kissing your ass goodbye if.

[James Holland]

Exactly the point that Al has made repeatedly that technology has got ahead of man's capability to actually manage and operate these things.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah, well ahead at this point. Now the plane famously the Enola Gay but what I mean what I didn't.

[James Holland]

Realize is and famously cancelled by Doge.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, it's fallen foul of Doge and all that sort of stuff. But it wasn't called the Enola Gay, was it? It's a renaming. Right.

[Ian McGregor]

The crew that are going to go with Tibbets, it was ostensibly the crew, the key people, Navigator Bombardier Faraday and Van Kirk. Those three guys were like brothers, it's like band of brothers. They, they trained and flown with each other throughout the European campaign, North Africa. So when Tibbets was given this, you know, do not pass go ticket in terms of I can just choose whoever I want or get out of jail free card, I should say I can choose whoever I want. He was always going to choose those guys to be in the team and even though they went through this process of selection, those guys were always going to be with him on, on the final mission. So yeah, it's his CO pilot Lewis, Captain Lewis. It was his plane.

[Al Murray]

Right.

[Ian McGregor]

There was 15 planes in the squadron and his plane was just in very good condition in terms of, you know, it had the right bomb bay, the engines had been tuned to perfection. I mean it was just ready to go as a strike aircraft. So Tibbets was going to take it. Lewis thought he would be the command. The pilot realized once they're getting the briefing that's not going to happen. And then to rub salt into the wounds, once he strolls past his plane on the tarmac, on the loading area, he sees that, what's that name in Oligay? Who's who said he could have that? So he does have a stand up row.

[James Holland]

I'm slightly on his side on this one.

[Ian McGregor]

Yeah, he just, you know, he just tells him straight, it's I'm flying the plane, I'm commander of the operation, I'm putting the name, I'm putting my name on the plane. I didn't think you mind and if you do Tough is staying there.

[James Holland]

I can see why Lewis is a bit. Is a bit peeved.

[Ian McGregor]

Yeah, well, they never got on after the war. And then he also tells him to get his hands off the goddamn. The goddamn stick when they're taxing out on the Runway because he said, I'm flying the plane. But again, you've got. At least. He tells him, he tells him straight, no messing, just, let's just get on with the mission. Know your place. So, yeah, it's Theanola Gay, which is named after Tibbets's mother. Right. And she was happy about that. In later life, she was happy that he'd named the plane after. She was fine with it.

[Al Murray]

Extraordinary. And they changed the markings on the aircraft as well because they, the five and A planes all have a, an arrowhead insignia on them, but for this they've been replaced with an R. And this is from the 6th Bomb Group. This is to sort of befuddle Japanese identification.

[Ian McGregor]

Yeah, yeah, that's just taking security to.

[James Holland]

The nth degree because as we know, the Japanese were so good on intelligence.

[Ian McGregor]

They kind of knew that. Yeah, they kind of knew that they were, you know, they weren't going to get attacked really. They, they were confident that was going to happen, that, you know, that was an issue. So, yeah, they changed it.

[Al Murray]

Well, it's by the afternoon, the 5th of August, the crews, the mission crews have been brought together, they're assembled, there's armed. I mean, the idea of this kind of security when you are in the middle of nowhere on an island that, you know, everyone who's come in and come out of, I think it's sort of. It's not comical, but it does feel a little, a little tiny bit over the top. And also way too late after all, because, as you say, Fuchs has penetrated the Manhattan Project and the people, you really don't want to know about this. The Soviets know all about it. They lay out the orders for the sortie and it's like any bombing mission. Right. That's all kind of standard, really, isn't it?

[Ian McGregor]

Yeah, I mean, but, but to be fair, I was going to say that the majority of the crews hadn't. A lot of them hadn't been in action. Obviously Tibbets, Van Kirk and Ferebee had. They'd seen a lot of action. But there was a great many of those crews from the 509th that had just been plucked from know training straight away and then gone straight into 509th because they showed an aptitude, skill level wise in that unit. And so many testimonies that I read at the World War II Museum in New Orleans testified to that they hadn't actually seen any combat action.

[James Holland]

That's amazing, isn't it? And B29, slightly large crew, 11 men rather than 10.

[Ian McGregor]

Yeah, yeah. So there was various elements there that. Yeah, they took two weaponeers. Captain Parsons was the chief weapon. He'd armed the bomb one with Lieutenant Morris Jepsen. So they had both been assigned and come down from Los Alamos. They'd been involved in the production of Little Boy as well. From the military side of things, you could. I suppose you could say Groves eyes and ears in the plane. And they would arm the bomb.

[Al Murray]

Wow.

[Ian McGregor]

So, yeah, the Enola Gates radio call sign was changed again. Security measure from Victor 82 to dimples 82 to minimize radio detection by the Japanese.

[Al Murray]

I mean, did they sleep that night? I mean.

[Ian McGregor]

Well, no, no. I mean, they were going to go after midnight, so they were told.

[James Holland]

So the briefings are done on the afternoon of August 5th?

[Ian McGregor]

Yeah, they have. They have two briefings. One in the afternoon, then one closer in in the evening. But the ironic thing is Tibbets tells them to go away and get some sleep. And then he himself goes and plays cards all night. Because again, he's. He's just that kind of guy. Why would he sleep? He's going to be leading this mission.

[James Holland]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ian McGregor]

And then ominously, I suppose, two things. The scientists. Professor Ramsey from the Manhattan Project. He's been assigned to Tinian. Then gives out the crews, the famous welders, goggles with Polaroid lenses. And he's telling the crews, you're going to see a blinding flash of light brighter than the sun. So you have to wear these. Don't look directly into the explosion. And equally, and this was only found out after the war, is the surgeon on the base then secretly gives Tibbets a stash of cyanide pills.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Ian McGregor]

The reason is you're not to be taken alive. If anything goes wrong with the mission and you have to ditch or, God forbid, you had to crash land in Japan. None of you can be taken alive. And the crew didn't even know that. God.

[Al Murray]

Wow.

[James Holland]

But just to be clear, they do know they're dropping a new. An atomic bomb. They know that they're dropping a new weapon of untold power and scale of destruction. They know that.

[Ian McGregor]

Yeah. That's the speech he gives to them right towards the end where they're in the crew hut. He's saying, we're dropping a new weapon, a superweapon that could potentially end the war.

[James Holland]

So up until this point, it's a bit like the dams, right. They don't know. They know they've got a secret mission, but they don't know what it is.

[Ian McGregor]

You know, because they've been practicing for the last few weeks with what I was saying, this pumpkin. They knew they're dropping an enormous bomb and I would imagine a lot of them are aware of what the RAF was dropping in Europe. Tallboys and that kind of thing. The multiple bomb bays, the ordinary B29 would have has been elongated to where it's just one bomb bay, 33 foot long. So they know we're taking something big.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

So it's 11pm on the night of the 5th of August. They're kind of getting ready to go, and it's Paul Tibbets who delivers the final remarks and he gets the crew along and he says, says, tonight is the night we've all been waiting for. Our long months of training are to be put to the test. This bomb is unlike anything the world has ever seen.

[Al Murray]

It's incredible. He's telling the truth, isn't he? This was peculiar about this. Very often you read of people briefing crews and g their men up with sort of, well, what we can do is we're going to make all the difference. This is actually one of those occasions where they're not lying. Right?

[Ian McGregor]

Yeah. And again, if you equate it, say, for instance, to D Day, if you're getting that kind of briefing, you're surrounded by hundreds and hundreds of your fellow. You know, it could be paratroopers, Marines, infantrymen, whatever. See yourself as part of this huge armada, whereas you're in this Nissan hut, baking Nissan hut on Tinian at night, a tiny island in the middle of nowhere. And you're sitting there, you know, I don't know how many were in that hut, but I can't imagine it was more than three dozen. And you're being told what you're about to do could end the war.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Ian McGregor]

And I'm sure some of them felt immensely privileged. I'm sure some of them were absolutely wanting to go to the toilet. But again, he'd driven them for the past almost year training and all that tension I was talking about on the base and with security and everything else, they were probably like, let's just get it on, let's just get out there and do it.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

So 1:45am, August 6th. It's now, you know, we've gone past midnight, so it's the 6th of August. Crew gathering on the tarmac, lights illuminating the Enola Gay. There's some reporters and senior Manhattan Project officers there to kind of document every moment. It's actually a 12 man crew on this case rather than a normal 11 man crew for a B29, including the CO pilot, Robert Lewis, including the bombardier, Major Tom Ferebee. The navigator is Van Kirk. Weaponeer is Captain Parsons. He's the man who's got to kind of make it live at 5,000ft. And the assistant weaponeer is Lieutenant Maurice Jepson. Presumably that's where you get your extra man from, is it?

[Ian McGregor]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And one name I didn't put in the list, but we'll talk about later, is Sergeant Bob Karen. Because he's in the rear gunner's position of the Enola Gay, he would see what the bomb was doing because obviously Tibbets has done a handbrake turn and he's running hell for leather.

[Al Murray]

Final checks 2:45am Tibbets takes the stick himself. Dimples 82 to North Tinian Tower ready for takeoff. And off they go, climbing into the darkness. And ahead of them are three weather reconnaissance planes, which is part of this picture that they've been creating for the Japanese, that there's just plain spoofing them and doing recce and so on that straight flush who flies over Hiroshima, Jabit 3 goes to Kokura, full house goes to Nagasaki. And those are the three target cities, possible target cities. And they're going to radio back and say where the weather's favorable and then direct Enola Gay to that target. And at 6:07am, straight flush confirms clear skies over Hiroshima, sealing the target. And I think that's where we shall take a break before we get to Hiroshima itself. And this epochal moment, well, it could.

[James Holland]

Hardly be more tense, could it? I mean, my nerves are jangling just thinking about it, to be honest.

[Al Murray]

Brilliant. Well, we'll see you in a moment.

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[Sarah Churchwell]

I'm Sarah Churchwell.

[David Ulushoka]

And I'm David Ulushoka. And together we're the hosts of Journeys Through Time, where we tell history from the ground up.

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[David Ulushoka]

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It was actually only in the late 20th century, while the NRA was being run, in fact, by a convicted killer, that the NRA transformed into a for profit group that was against gun control. And that position has reshaped American life in the most profound possible ways.

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This history is essential to understanding the thinking behind some of the militias who took part in the storming of the capitol building in 2021 and how these ideas are bleeding into law enforcement and who is propping up Trump in 2025.

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Ultimately, this is a story of national myth making and it's also a story about really effective marketing.

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Now, as a treat for our listeners, we've got a short clip at the end of this episode.

[Al Murray]

Welcome back to we have Ways to make youe Talk with me, Al Murray, James Holland and Ian McGre. And straight flush has reported back that Hiroshima, the skies are clear over Hiroshima and it's a suitable target. It's a long flight though, isn't it? I mean, it's 1500 miles. Although the B29 is quick for its type, that's still a long schlep, isn't it?

[Ian McGregor]

Yeah. But I was going to say when I interviewed Paul Tibbets, his grandson, he said his grandfather said to him many times it was the easiest mission he ever flew. And you can imagine all the dozens and dozens of combat missions Portivets flew over Europe. He was in some horrific raids, wasn't he, watching planes get shot down. But he said, yeah, it was because it was the organization, the planning, the complete lack of any Japanese air defense. And it was six hours to the target, 15 minutes over the target to drop the bomb and then six hours back. It's very silent, tense and professional on the journey in and they're all wearing.

[James Holland]

Shirt sleeve order, presumably.

[Ian McGregor]

Yeah. And on the journey back it was very much not excited or fist pumping but positive, just conversations amongst the whole crew saying, well, the war's over.

[James Holland]

Parsons and Jepsen have got to call into the Bombay and arm little boy, this huge boy and you know, crikey, I mean, nose jangling. I mean, this is not a, you know, I'm thinking of the kind of, you know, UXB boy sort of, you know, hovering over the right wire. It's all, it's that kind of stuff, isn't it? I mean, just imagine and you're moving, you know, you're at 5,000ft over the Pacific Ocean. There's, there's no margin for error at all.

[Ian McGregor]

And as we said, the size of the bomb as well is Parsons and Jepsen have basically got to take out the four green connectors and put in the powder charges and then hook it up to the release wires. So when the bomb drops, obviously the wires comes out, activates the radar alt meters in Little Boy, which will then detonate the bomb when it reaches a certain altitude. So it's programmed to explode roughly 1,925ft. He's got, as you just said, he's got to do that in flight. Take out one plug, replace it with the next, then connect the wires again.

[James Holland]

Yeah, and I love this line. Van Kirk asks Parsons what would happen if any of the green lights are reactivated. And Parson just goes, we're in a.

[Ian McGregor]

Hell of a lot of trouble. That's the understatement of the war, I think.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. In Hiroshima. Well, it's an August morning. There's been sirens sounded. We've established here they're used to planes appearing but air raid sirens amounting to nothing, basically.

[Ian McGregor]

Yeah. I mean the city suffers very little damage. It's been shot up, I Think twice in 1944 from carrier based fighter planes. But just being strafed by fighter planes isn't going to cause that much damage. I think several people are killed from a couple of bombs being dropped a few months before that. But that was it, that's all they'd seen. And if anything, the population of the city had slightly increased because of other refugees coming from cities that had been bombed. But just so if listeners don't know the importance of Hiroshima, I'd already said it was a central hub, but you got to remember that the port and the arsenal next to the port was very significant for the Japanese war effort. So you know the Japanese Pacific Fleet that attacked the Americans at Pearl harbor to start the war, they'd left from Hiroshima. Most of the Japanese troops fighting on the Chinese mainland had left from Hiroshima. So you could see why the Americans definitely had a reason to bomb it. But, but like you said, yes, it's August, very hot, humid morning, clear blue sky. I'd imagine half the workforce who'd got up are bleary eyed because they'd been up that night because they'd been this scare because one of the weather planes had gone over. They just, you know, panicked, thinking it's, it's an air raid that's finally come. That's what the Enola Gay is flying over to. It's just a city waking up and going to work, going about its ordinary business.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What are people doing? You know, school kids. Are they, they going to school or is it, is it the summer holidays in.

[Ian McGregor]

No, no, no. I'd say from about 10, 10, 11 years up, most children aren't at school. That was one of the things I talk about in the book where the civil authorities are arguing with the military authorities because they things. They're drawing more children, young teenagers into the armaments cottage industry around and within Hiroshima, but also they're drafting a lot of kids to work with the militia teams to create fire breaks again. It's just insane. We haven't built any long term strategy for air raid shelters for the civilian populations. We've underfunded the fire service. But I know, because the Americans are bombing the country to bits within centuries we'll create firebreaks that will save us. So that's what they were doing that morning. A lot of teenage children were helping the authorities, doing what they've been doing for weeks. But yeah, it's just, it's just an ordinary day and a lot of people just trying to survive. Because the rice rations been cut again, because more military are moving into Hiroshima and around the vicinity. So civilian food supplies, sparse as they were and now being pared down again. Yeah, so, yeah, there's just a lot of. I'd say depression is the right word. Judging by the interviews that I read, I had with people, it was just starving.

[James Holland]

You know, 88% of the economy is now focused on defence. By this point, Japan is absolutely up the creek without a paddle. It is terrible, the conditions in Japan at this, by this point, I mean, truly, truly horrific.

[Al Murray]

Operation Starvation, which is the, which is the American blockade of the. They're not gilding that, Lilly, are they? I mean, extraordinary.

[James Holland]

But as far as everyday normal routine can exist in a nation that's sort of bludgeoned and beaten by war. That's what state it's in on the morning. It's unsuspecting. It's, it's every day comparatively normal. Within that caveat of normality. Here we are at the, the approach and you know, this is 30,000ft. I mean, this is seriously high. I mean, if you think of Sort of most heavy bombers over Germany, it's sort of somewhere between sort of 18 to 24,000ft, something, something like that that they're dropping bombs. So this is quite substantially higher. You think an airliner is usually operating at somewhere between 35 and 37,000ft today. So, you know, six miles up or whatever.

[Al Murray]

So you.

[James Holland]

Is really, really seriously high. So cities, landmarks, you know, you can still see that, See it very clear. It's nice and clear, isn't it? There's not, there's hardly any cloud at all.

[Ian McGregor]

Yeah. Perfect conditions for bombing. You know, you could say that's sealed their fate. So bombardier Tom Ferebee, he's been doing hours and hours and hours of training for the bomb run on Hiroshima, using the northern bomb site, looking for the T shaped AO bridge in the heart of the city. That's his target to drop the bomb. And that's what he wants, you know, Tibbets to guide him to. And again, it's perfect weather conditions. So they've got a good, very clear run at this.

[James Holland]

Tibbett's orders. Put on your goggles.

[Ian McGregor]

Yeah. And they all do.

[James Holland]

There's an autopilot, isn't there, on the plane?

[Al Murray]

Yeah, the whole thing in the, in American aircraft, isn't it, where you had over the bombardier as the pilot.

[Ian McGregor]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

He steers in on the bomb site. So at 8:15, Hiroshima time, Ferebee releases little boy. The bomb falls for 43 seconds and spinning and it has an altimeter. And this is the point because what they want is they want an air burst to maximize the effect of the bomb. They don't want it hurtling down and burying itself in the earth and detonating. They want maximum bang for their buck here, don't they? And so the altimeter triggers the detonation. The uranium is fired from one end of the bomb to the other. It goes fissile, though nowhere near as much as it could have done, as you pointed out earlier, which is just absolutely boggling. And you get an explosion which is roughly 15 kilotons of TNT.

[Ian McGregor]

Yeah, they, Truman actually stated it was 20,000 tons. They actually didn't know. And it was only when they sent in teams after the war and then research over the next three or four decades was, was the reason why we've come to the decision that it's around about 15,000 tons.

[James Holland]

There's a brilliant white flash that lights up the sky. Massive fireball and then the shockwave which spreads outwards at supersonic.

[Al Murray]

SPE be. Yeah. How many people are killed? It is really hard to know, isn't it? Because within the a mile of ground zero, people are basically being vaporized, aren't they? They're being completely evaporated by the, by the sheer heat of the bomb going off. Right. There's a kind of question mark at this, at the center of where the bomb goes off, isn't there?

[Ian McGregor]

Yeah, because they were aiming for the bridge and it's roughly 3, 400 meters away. I mean still, still a good aim, but yeah, I mean within a half mile radius everything's gone. The surface temperature on ground zero is the surface temperature of the sun just a little bit hotter than that. Several thousand degrees.

[James Holland]

Jesus.

[Ian McGregor]

If that doesn't kill you, the shockwave is going to kill you because then that's when the radiation is kicking into the fireball. Consumes everything within about a mile and a half radius. I put somewhere within a three mile radius, over 80% of housing was destroyed. And that creates the fireball. And some of the testimonies I took from the eyewitnesses said it was the fireball that was more terrifying because it's, you know, it's a couple of hundred feet high and it's literally surrounding them. Where do they go? And as you saw with some of the bombing in like Hamburg and Clone and elsewhere, there's several rivers split. Hiroshima like fingers that run out to the sea. People are jumping in the rivers and then they're just being boiled because of the heat, the intense heat that's caused the rivers to basically boil.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Ian McGregor]

Most of the people that survive in that three mile radius primarily is because the building's fallen on them. They just happen to be in the right place at the right time. The roof falls down on them and protects them from the heat blast, protects them from the fireball by some miracle.

[James Holland]

Just extraordinary.

[Ian McGregor]

Yeah. One of the key characters in the book, the mayor of Rosham, he does die instantly because you know, the mayor's residence is 2 minute walk away from ground zero. So he gets flattened, all him and his family are killed. But his wife happened to be out in the back garden just praying and the house fell on her and created an air gap. So she survived, but radiation poisoning would kill her later.

[Al Murray]

Dear God.

[Ian McGregor]

Somewhere between 66 and 75,000 people die when the bombs dropped and then double that in the next week or two weeks, three weeks. People dying of injuries, blood loss. And then when radiation poisoning obviously starts to kick in.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Holland]

The shadows of vaporized people burned into the concrete is just extraordinary, isn't it?

[Ian McGregor]

And there Are. I think. I can't remember how many. It's two dozen American POWs are outside Hiroshima Castle tidying the grounds. And Hiroshima Castles again. It's a stone's throw away from where Ground Zero would have been, a couple of minutes walk. So, yeah, they're instantly killed.

[James Holland]

The Shima Surgical Hospital completely ceases to.

[Ian McGregor]

Exist, literally underneath Ground Zero. The bomb explodes above it, and that's one of the key things. It's all utilities destroyed. 20 out of 23 hospitals destroyed. 90% of doctors killed or wounded or die of their wounds. 93% of nurses killed or die of their wounds. All the fire teams like. Like the Great Fire of Tokyo. All fire teams decimated. So even if you wanted to do something, there's nothing you can do. It's just a dystopian destruction on a level no one's seen.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. And Tibbets, in the meantime, has turned 180 degrees. So it's in his rearview mirror, really, isn't it? The tail gunner sees this. There's other aircraft in the sky watching. So Necessary evil, One of the observer planes sees the mushroom cloud, and it climbs past 45,000ft. Column of Fire, essentially. And the wind you get being drawn into it is also part of what's killing people, isn't it? There's stuff flying around, rubble flying around, smashing people to pieces. And they send a radio confirmation. Mission successful. Effects greater than Alamogordo. Proceeding to base.

[Ian McGregor]

So Alamogordo is the place in the New Mexican desert where they've done Trinity tests, basically. So that's what he's referring to.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. There's two shockwaves that hit the Enola Gay as they're heading home. Tibbets turns the plane towards the open scene, and there are no enemy fighters, just the cloud behind them. I mean, it's absolutely extraordinary.

[Ian McGregor]

And this is one of the things I think research can pop up. Like I was telling you about the 1.7% of U235 that fissioned. Famously, Captain Lewis in the Enola Gaze log said, oh, my God, what have we done? So he wrote that when they returned to base and they're met by the, you know, the world's press, and every general in the Pacific, I think, was there to greet them. And that's gone down in history as that's. That's was his opinion. But then I heard several audio testimonies from some of the crew in the audio archive of New Orleans. And Van Kirk said what he actually did was jump out of his seat and shout, look at that. Son of a bitch. Go. So it just, I'm sure he had two reactions because he must have had six hours coming back thinking, yeah, what have we done? And so I'm not, I'm not questioning that what he put in the log was true, but his initial reaction was something quite different.

[James Holland]

Well, and Tibbets recall seeing it, doesn't he? And he says the giant purple mushroom which Karen had described had already risen to a height of 45,000ft, three miles above our own altitude, and was still boiling upward like something terribly alive. It was a frightening sight. And even though we were several miles away, it gave the appearance of something that was about to engulf us. If Dante had been with us in the plane, he'd have been terrified.

[Al Murray]

So they get back at 2.58pm to Tinian, Tinian time, that's a 12 hour round trip. Enola Gay lands on the Coral airstrip at Northfield and obviously there's a reception committee, isn't there? Because, I mean, the reporters that are there, they're embedded Manhattan Project people, aren't they? That are part of the. Not propaganda effort isn't quite, quite the right word. But how they're going to publicly interface using the atomic bomb with the media and you've got scientists, fellow airmen, but what's the atmosphere when they land? Is it. Are people high fiving each other or is it, I mean, did people high five each other in the 40s? There's a question.

[Ian McGregor]

Well, yeah, I think it's different to when obviously they took off, when, when they're coming into land, there's hundreds of airmen lining the, the Runway behind the fence. When they're taxiing in, there's a lot more airmen and airbase crews running towards the plane.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Ian McGregor]

You know, there's a lot of generals waiting to say hello to them and admirals and pump their hands and everything else. Thomas Farrell's there, General, obviously General LeMay's there. I would say for the Enola Gay crew, it's relief. Yeah, with a bit. There must have been some euphoria because they're on a mission and, you know, we've got the hindsight of a nuclear holocaust. They don't. They just think they've, you know, they've dropped a superweapon and it's worked and the mission's gone correctly, but it's just a different vibe. They. Because I would argue again that judging by a lot of the testimonies, they all think the war's over. They think there's no way they can. They can withstand this. You know, we drop a few more of those on and that's that. That's the almost comical conversation Tibbetts has with LeMay, because LeMay is out of the circle of trust. He's not involved in the Manhattan Project, much to his chagrin. He wants to be involved. And he says to Tibbetts, have we got any more of those? And he's like, well, yeah, we are making more. And he said, we'll get them over here. Well, let's just finish the job. So very pragmatic.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Ian McGregor]

Everyone's aware that, as Jim said, everything's changed.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Ian McGregor]

The whole dynamic of how the war is going to end has changed.

[James Holland]

And it starts to spread around the world, doesn't it?

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, one of the things I think is remarkable about this is this is the world's most secret project. Obvious until you drop it and then you have to say what it is or the Japanese might not get the message, might not understand what the Americans are saying to them by using the atomic bomb. And, you know, this is in light of the Potsdam Declaration, where Japan's been warned of prompt and utter destruction if it did not surrender. So the Americans have demonstrated exactly that, haven't they, with the bomb? Stimson briefs Truman because he's on the. He's coming back from Potsdam on the USS Augusta. Stimson briefs Truman, and I think this is amazing. Truman reportedly says this is the greatest thing in history.

[Ian McGregor]

Well, he actually stands on his chair with both. He's got a communique from Simpson and to corroborate it, he's got a coded communique from Groves, obviously, both saying the same thing. And he's like this. This is the greatest news in history.

[James Holland]

And he's right. I mean, there's a few more twists and turns, as we know. And then at 11:00am Washington time, he releases a formal public statement from the White House. Even though he's out at sea, he's going. 16 hours ago, an American airplane dropped one bomb on Hiroshima, an important Japanese army base. That bomb had more power than 20,000 tons of TNT. If they do not now accept our terms, they may expect a reign of ruin from the air, the like of which has never been seen on this earth. Well, that's very apocalyptic, isn't it? And in actual fact, they haven't got a rain, a rain of ruin from the air. They've got one, haven't they? Or maybe two.

[Ian McGregor]

But I believe they. Then they put down that speech, translate it into Japanese, and They drop millions of leaflets on Japan because obviously you've got an insulated population smothered in government propaganda that has no idea how badly the war's gone and what's happened at Hiroshima. So that's to let them know while they're still keeping their neck on the enemy by just increasing the incendiary rates. They don't stop.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Ian McGregor]

And there's an interesting argument with Spats, who's running the U.S. army Air Force in the Pacific. He puts forward the argument after Hiroshima mission that do we need to carry on with these missions? Do my men need to risk their lives on these missions? Because we've got this. Are we dropping another one? Shall we delay the next incendiary race? And it's like, well, no, just carry. We're carrying on.

[Al Murray]

It is the, the, the thing that marks the beginning of a new world, isn't it? And it's one of these things with the Second World War, when you think, you know, the RAF is flying Gloucester Gladiators at the end, and at the end of the war, flying Gloucester Meteors, you know, they go from biplane fighter planes to jet planes. But this is the colossal vault into the modern world, isn't it, the atomic bomb?

[Ian McGregor]

Yeah. I mean, we talked about Henry Hap Arnold, who's the father of the B29. He learned to fly with the Wright brothers.

[James Holland]

Yeah, yeah, I know, it's amazing when you put it like that.

[Ian McGregor]

It's just. Just mad. It's absolutely mad. But that's, as we know, war drives.

[Al Murray]

Innovation and escalation as well.

[Ian McGregor]

An escalation, yeah, yeah.

[Al Murray]

Which, which is what? This is the sort of pinnacle of. And in many ways, it's the perfect logical extension of strategic bond bombing. It's the perfect logical extension of steel, not flesh. You know, it's a 12 man crew, has killed scores of thousands of people in an instant, in a way that a big bomber raid, you know, would endanger far more American lives to pull off. So, you know, the starting point is this idea. We'll let the technology do the lifting so that we don't have to endure any more soms. And the end point is this.

[Ian McGregor]

Yeah. And we don't have to step foot on Japanese soil risking our lives. It's jobs done.

[Al Murray]

Well, Ian, thank you so much for taking us through this. I mean, they do it again because the Japanese government responds with mokuzatsu to the American demand that they surrender. For my money, in a way, it's the second atomic bomb. That's the one that changes the world. Because if you're prepared to do it once, well, fine. But if you're going to do it a second time, it shows that you really have. You really have made up your mind about how you're going to prosecute war from now on.

[James Holland]

And you and I shall be looking at those final moments of the war in a later episode.

[Al Murray]

Thank you so much for joining us and taking us through. This is a fascinating history. It's really striking, that thing of Lewis jumping up, saying, look at that son of pitch go. And then later on, what is, what is it that we have done? There is a need for portentous language in this situation, isn't there? Because the gravity of what they've done is sat next to, have we ended the war? Of course there's going to be conflicting feelings around this. It's. It's so interesting.

[Ian McGregor]

Yeah, it's just. It's just interesting how those members of the Enola Gay led their lives after the war.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Ian McGregor]

And the one guy who had the message discipline for the next several decades was Tibbets. Didn't change his line once.

[Al Murray]

Incredible.

[James Holland]

It's one of the most famous, infamous episodes in the history of the world. And yet you've brought a lot of very fresh new research to this, Ian. Blend of technical stuff, science, but never losing sight of the immense human drama of the entire operation, from the development of the bomb to. To the. The mission itself through to the Japanese who suffered. The fate of this then in Hiroshima is remarkable. And, you know, hats off to you. Thanks, and thank you for bringing this story to. To the podcast and your expertise and huge knowledge on it. So thank you.

[Ian McGregor]

Thanks, guys.

[Al Murray]

Hiroshima Men is. Is in all good bookstores and as.

[James Holland]

You always say, and some bad ones, too.

[Al Murray]

And some bad ones as well. No, thanks so much, Ian. Thanks, everyone, for listening. We hope you. We hope you enjoyed. We hope you were stimulated by that as we did. We'll see you again very, very soon. Cheerio.

[James Holland]

Cheerio.

[Sarah Churchwell]

I'm Sarah Churchwell from Journey Through Time, and here's that clip we mentioned earlier on. So this is the thing that will amaze anybody who knows what the NRA is today, is that it began as a gun safety organization. What they discovered was that the soldiers in the Civil War were not good at gun safety. They were actually hopeless. They kept kind of shooting themselves and each other, and they kept missing all their targets. As the Civil War was breaking out, there are these Americans in England who see the National Rifle association and think, well, that's a good idea. We should have training in gun safety and in marksmanship. You know, people should be just better at it. And so that's the idea. But it takes them 10 years to get there because the Civil War is keeping Americans a little bit busy. But at the same time, the gun industry is growing. It's growing because of the Civil War. And so the gun industry starts to pivot to see themselves as marketing to individual US Consumers, and they start to market them as status symbols, as symbols of personal power.

[David Ulushoka]

If you want to hear more, listen to Journey Through Time. Wherever you get your podcasts.