Operation Barbarossa: Barbarossa Unleashed (Part 5)

Summary

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Operation Barbarossa: Barbarossa Unleashed (Part 5)

Podcast: WW2 Pod: We Have Ways of Making You Talk
Hosts: Al Murray & James Holland
Date: July 22, 2026

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Overview

In this fifth installment of the "Barbarossa Unleashed" series, Al Murray and historian James Holland provide a granular, hour-by-hour account of the initial days of Operation Barbarossa, the largest land invasion in history. The episode explores perspectives from front-line participants, German and Soviet high commands, and examines the logistical, strategic, and psychological factors that shaped the early weeks of the Nazi-Soviet War. The dialogue is rich with firsthand accounts, expert analysis, entertaining banter, and notable myth-busting about Stalin’s state of mind and military leadership.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Frontline Experience: Richard von Rosen’s Account

• Richard Freiherr von Rosen, a Panzer III gunner, sets the immersive ground-level perspective as the 4th Panzer Division crosses the River Bug into the USSR on June 22, 1941.
• Crossing into the Soviet Union (04:30pm, June 22):
  • After crossing, the landscape was scattered with destroyed Soviet armor and equipment:

    "One burnt out Russian tank after another, some with great shell holes... at least a full armored division."
    — (Al Murray quoting von Rosen, [01:45])

  • Initial progress is swift but tense, with German troops expecting ambushes that never come, highlighting Soviet unpreparedness:

    "We assumed the enemy would be positioned behind every clump of woodland... incomprehensible that he had not prepared his defense."
    — (von Rosen via Al Murray, [07:19])

• Early Interactions with Civilians:
  • Warm reception from local populations, who viewed Germans as potential liberators.

    "Offering eggs and butter and stuff... I probably would cheer arriving troops, Jim, I don’t know about you, on balance."
    — Al Murray, [09:19]

  • Noted discomfort even among conquerors—von Rosen is unnerved when separated from his weapon in a possibly unsafe area.

2. German Operational Planning and Strategic Confusion

• Hitler vs. High Command:
  • Disagreement within Nazi leadership: Hitler favors capturing the Baltic States, Leningrad, and Ukraine, relegating Moscow to a secondary objective, while his generals (notably Halder) push for a direct thrust toward Moscow.
  • The lack of clarity persists as the operation begins:

    "There is this... creative tension here."
    — Al Murray, [13:06] "It speaks to me of a lack of clarity, a lack of resolution at the very top..."
    — James Holland, [15:07]

• German Overreach & Force Dispersal:
  • Despite impressive numbers (3 million+ men), German divisions are stretched thin, especially with Army Group South effectively functioning as two separate army groups.

    "When you’re splitting it up like that... yes, you have concentration of force... It's not 2 million men, you know, it’s not all quite what it seems..."
    — James Holland, [22:53]

• Soviet Organization:
  • At invasion, Soviets are arranged in military districts, not “fronts,” and their strategic salients (Bialystok, Lvov) leave them vulnerable to encirclement.
• German Focus on Logistics:
  • Descriptions of the Panzer division’s logistical echelons (Tross Ein, Tross Zwei) and the shared conclusions with British tank doctrine ([04:55]).

3. Soviet Chaos, Stalin’s Hubris, and Operational Reality

• Pre-invasion Soviet Posture:
  • Strong suspicion in Kremlin, but Stalin dismisses clear intelligence about an imminent German attack, refusing to mobilize fully.

    "Tell the source and the staff of the German air force to fuck his mother."
    — Stalin via James Holland, [28:14]

  • Orders not to provoke the Germans lead to a watered-down state of readiness with catastrophic consequences ([36:04]).
• Vulnerable Arrangements:
  • Soviet airfields, tank parks, and logistics crowded at the border, poorly camouflaged and easily targeted ([29:20]).
• Regiment 800 (Brandenburgers) Commando Operations:
  • Nazi special forces, disguised as NKVD, cut Soviet telephone lines and sow confusion ([31:15]).

4. Day One: The Luftwaffe’s Devastating Blow

• Luftwaffe Strikes (03:00–03:17am, June 22):
  • Over 1,800 Soviet aircraft destroyed, nearly all on the ground:

    "On day one, the VVS loses 1,817..."
    — James Holland, [40:41]

  • Comparison: worst Luftwaffe day in Battle of Britain—76 aircraft lost; here, Soviet losses are exponentially higher.

5. German Advances & Red Army Collapse

• Army Group Center:
  • Textbook blitzkrieg: 60-70km advances, encirclement of four Soviet armies by 28 June.
• Army Group North & The Baltic States:
  • Civilians welcome Germans as liberators, especially in Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia ([48:10]).
  • Baltic activist fronts seize buildings and declare governments—quickly quashed by Germans ([48:44]).
• Army Group South:
  • Tougher resistance in Ukraine, slower advances, but the Soviets eventually forced into retreat.

6. Crucial Failings: Communication, Coordination, and Comms

• Mechanical Failure of Soviet Command “Loop”:

  "The Soviets are caught... caught in their cock up loop... the everything they do is compounded by the rotten situation they’re already in."
  — Al Murray, [52:04]

• No Air Cover, No Comms:
  • Red Army’s dual disaster—Luftwaffe annihilation of air cover and systematic communications sabotage.

7. Myth-Busting Stalin’s Response

• Stalin’s Activity Post-Invasion:
  • Contrary to the myth (peddled by Khrushchev) that Stalin was paralyzed, new access to Kremlin logs confirms he was heavily involved, issuing multiple directives, convening war cabinets, and directly overseeing tank production ([55:53]).

  "Everything points to Stalin being at his desk more or less around the clock and that he’s totally, totally, totally on it, but it is largely his fault."
  — James Holland, [56:58]

• Finger Pointing:
  • While not inactive, Stalin is directly blamed for the operational catastrophe: poor defensive doctrine, vulnerable deployment, ignoring advice, and policies that inadvertently “front-loaded” Soviet forces for destruction.

  "If you’re going to be an autocratic dictator... when things go tits up, you’ve got to also not be surprised if people point the finger at you."
  — James Holland, [56:58]

8. Soviet Counterattacks: Too Little, Too Late

• Still Pressing Offensives:
  • Despite disaster, Stalin orders counterstrikes into Romania and Lublin, not grasping the need for a strategic defensive shift ([62:41]).
• Operational Disarray:
  • Coordination failures, lack of preparation, and logistical breakdowns doom these efforts, despite numerical superiority.

9. The Numbers Game: The Soviet Colossus

• Staggering Soviet Resources:
  • 1.4 million troops on Ukrainian front, 8,000 tanks, 26,000+ artillery pieces ([54:21]).
  • Surpassed at the front only by their vulnerability and lack of coordination.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Stalin’s infamous disbelief:

  "Tell the source and the staff of the German air force to fuck his mother."
  — Stalin, via James Holland ([28:14])

• Real reason for Soviet collapse:

  "It's not the overwhelming dazzlingness of the Germans that's winning... it's a cock ups and it is, is again it is because the Red army is planning to invade..."
  — James Holland ([50:32])

• On operational optimism:

  "They think it'll... it'll be fine. We're the best at this."
  — Al Murray ([17:19])

• German OODA loop vs. Soviet cock-up loop:

  "The Soviets are caught up, caught in their cock up loop. German OODA loop aside, there is a cock up loop here that the Soviets simply cannot escape from."
  — Al Murray ([52:04])

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Timeline & Timestamps for Key Events

• [01:45] — von Rosen’s account: Initial border crossing, abandoned Soviet armor.
• [03:19] — Barbarossa begins: narration pivots to frontline events.
• [07:19] — First contact with dead Soviets, expectations vs. reality.
• [10:16] — Civilians' reactions to German advance.
• [13:06–16:35] — Discussion of German/OKH strategic confusion (“creative tension”).
• [28:14] — Stalin dismisses intelligence: key quote.
• [36:04] — NKO Order No. 1: Too little, too late.
• [40:41] — Luftwaffe’s devastating opening air assault statistics.
• [46:39] — The encirclement of Soviet armies, firing of General Pavlov.
• [48:10–49:23] — Baltic State uprisings and German response.
• [51:09] — Explaining why German spearheads run amok.
• [52:04] — “Cock up loop” metaphor.
• [55:53] — Stalin’s mythologized collapse debunked.
• [62:41] — Soviet counter-attacks and continued offensive mindset.
• [66:56] — Strategic bleakness for the Soviets, scorched earth policy.
• [69:50] — Teaser for the next episode: challenges of “too much winning.”

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Tone & Style

Al and James mix dry British wit and banter with pointed, often blunt historical judgments. They avoid glorifying German operational brilliance at the expense of Soviet disaster, frequently underlining the folly of both sides' leadership and the tragic consequences of hubris and poor communication. Their approach is accessible yet detailed—a blend of learned commentary, myth-busting, and battlefield storytelling.

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Summary Takeaways

• Operation Barbarossa’s opening is a near-total disaster for the Soviets, enabled by overconfidence, poor preparation, and leadership paralysis at the highest levels—especially from Stalin.
• German operational successes are both a result of their own tactical proficiency and equally, if not more so, due to Soviet failings in communication, coordination, and strategy.
• The episode debunks postwar myths about Stalin’s inactivity, instead blaming him squarely for the catastrophe, not for absence, but for disastrous policy and micromanagement.
• Despite extraordinary initial gains, the Germans are already confronting the immense scale and logistical challenges of conquering the USSR.
• The next episode promises to explore the “cracks” and accumulating problems that will doom Germany’s advance despite their dazzling start.

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For detailed military history, operational analysis, and witty myth-busting, this episode is rich listening for WW2 enthusiasts and newcomers alike.

Transcript

[Al Murray]

Thank you for listening to we have ways of making you talk. Sign up to our Patreon to receive bonus content, live streams, and our weekly newsletter with money off books and museum visits as well. Plus early access to all live show tickets. That's patreon.com wehaveways. Hey parents, how do you make smarter

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[James Holland]

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[Al Murray]

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[Al Murray]

How about that? The Financial Conduct Authority confirmed that millions of UK drivers were hit with hidden commissions. And if you finance more than one car since 2007, each could be a separate claim. With the average payout at 829 pounds a pop, it all adds up.

[James Holland]

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[Al Murray]

visit refundclub.co.uk whw that's refundclub.co.uk whW for your free check. It was not far to the Rollbahn where an indescribable sight met our eyes. One burnt out Russian tank after another, some with great shell holes, some destroyed by our aircraft in low level attacks. On that morning alone we saw the tanks of at least a full armored division. In addition, there were guns of every caliber, field kitchens and other military equipment. It was really difficult to take it all in. And that was the recollections of Gefreiter Richard Freiherr von Rosen. I'm rolling all the R's there for you all. Who's a gunner in a Panzer 3 part of 2nd platoon, 1st company, 35th Panzer regiment, 4th Panzer division, 24th Panzer corps. There you go. That's basically his email address under General Maiar Gaelf Von Schreppenberg, who some of

[James Holland]

you may remember this whole episode, this whole series, by the way, is just full of German names. You go, oh, yeah, him.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. Well, it's a small world, the German command.

[James Holland]

Well, it really is, is the truth of it.

[Al Murray]

These guys are part of the southern thrust of Army Group Center. So welcome to. We have ways of making you talk with me, Al Murray and James Holland. And we, we gave you four episodes. Was it Jim, of the Gathering. The Gathering Clouds.

[James Holland]

There's four episodes of Gathering Storm, of

[Al Murray]

Gathering Storm before Barbarossa.

[James Holland]

But we started our very first episode, didn't we? We started with Richard von Rosen and he's a returning character and here he is again, I think, at the end of our last four part series. We left him, didn't we, on the eve of Barbarossa.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And now Barbarossa has begun.

[Al Murray]

Someone blew a whistle somewhere basically and off it went. Him and his lads in the 1st Company, 35th Panzer Regiment, they're all very, everyone is very, very excited, morale' they're itching to get cracking. There's the rumble of distant artillery and the aircraft in the, in, in the skies giving them confidence and they're all ready to rock and roll, really. And their first task is to cross the river bug, which is 150 meters wide. It's effectively the barrier at the border. You know, everyone coming up to their start lines and all that sort of stuff takes its time and is difficult and there's big fuel and ammo dumps, but up they come. They've got, they've got to secure the crossings over the Bug first so they can break out. And this is the infantry and pioneers and engineers doing all this stuff. And their first company are ordered to move at around one o' clock in the afternoon. They're leading with the Panzer companies only. This is very interesting, they're doing this, which includes the tanks and echelons behind. And in the. If you listen to our British Band of Brothers series, you'll know that the, you know, Sherwood Rangers Yomi operate with an A echelon and a B echelon, which are the different, the different stagings for the, for the armor and in the, in the Wehrmacht it's the Gefect Tross, Tross Ein and Tross Svi, which is basically Echelon A, Echelon B.

[James Holland]

To all intents and purposes it's all intensive.

[Al Murray]

Tross Ein includes a, you know, repair unit, field kitchen, ammunition and radios. And Trostsway is a wheeled echelon with motor with a Motor pool. So, you know, provisions, clothing, dispatch riders, medics. It's basically, I mean, you know, they've come to the same conclusion about how to do this.

[James Holland]

There's only one way.

[Al Murray]

There's only really one way. And as they go forward, there are stops for congestion. And he sees a couple of lightly wounded Germans who say, watch out. This swampy ground has the side of

[James Holland]

the Rollbahn because don't forget what's in front of them, a huge geographical area of swampland known as the Prepack Marshes, the vivid marshes.

[Al Murray]

But the, the point is, is the way the Germans are doing this is the panzers have priorities. They're the spearhead of the panzer division, aren't they? So that these Panzer divisions are the point. This is the absolute point of the spear. Richard von Rosen, isn't it?

[James Holland]

He's in, he's in Panzer Group 2, which is Guderian's lot.

[Al Murray]

Right, okay.

[James Holland]

So this is, this is our old friend Guderian.

[Al Murray]

Ah, yes. Who said logistics is the ball and chamber of armored warfare. The silly so and so.

[James Holland]

Other, other military experts in, involved in Operation Barbarossa aren't saying such things like that, particularly as the weeks, the weeks continue. Anyway, well, I'm getting ahead of myself. So they, they. There's a, there's a makeshift bridge already over the Bug. This is, this has been made by the pioneers, I mean, an amazing effort to get 153, 150 meters across. This is, this is a pontoon bridge. They have to wait an hour because there's repairs to the bridge which are needed off the immense weight of traffic. I mean you can just imagine it, can't you?

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

They finally cross 4:30pm on the 22nd of June. So they're finally on Soviet soil. They have a glug of cognac, pat themselves on the back, probably slap a thigh and on they go. Being taking great care not to bog down, everyone is very mindful of this is marshy ground, don't veer off the road. Basically, yeah. And they see no Russians at all. Absolutely none, but plenty of abandoned Russian equipment. They halt after 5km to allow for the 2nd Battalion HQ to catch up. Number one company is now given three extra Panzer IVs and all told to get. And they're all told to get ready to advance to the town of Corbyn, told to expect enemy resistance as well.

[Al Murray]

At first we crossed open country behind a hedge. I saw my first dead Russians. The sight of it never gave me pleasure to the extent that I had imagined it would earlier. We assumed that the enemy would be positioned behind every clump of woodland and, and found it incomprehensible that he had not prepared his defense in those areas of tyranny ideal for it.

[James Holland]

Why haven't they? Because, because the Red army is on the move up. It's moving forward. It's in the process of moving forward. Do you remember there was, you know, they were supposed to be ready by

[Al Murray]

20th of July and, and theirs is an offensive doctrine anyway. They don't really have a defensive doctrine. It's not the, not the attitude in the Red Army.

[James Holland]

They do have the Stalin line on the original Soviet border. Yeah, but they're ahead of the Soviet border because they've had all these buffer states that they've absorbed in the summer of 1940, you know, the Baltic states and Romania and all the rest of it. So, so that's why they're in constant radio contact. Every panzer has a receiver and most have a transmitter too. And this is obviously absolutely key to their successes so far in the war, this ability to communicate. The convoy follows a woodland trail through thick forest. They see absolutely nothing. Night falls, but they keep going, take it in turns to catnap in the darkness. The commander has to give steering instructions to the driver. I mean you can imagine it kind of the sort of pine forests are kind of the, the darkness, the sound of the, of the engines ahead. Around midnight they reach the main Brest Litovsk roll barn, which is. Brestovsk is a major kind of border city in Belarusia. And this is the main road leading eastwards from the city fortress. They passed around to the kind of the south of Brestatopsk and joined the Rollbahn due east. Which is one of the reasons why they're all being so cautious about don't veering off the trail because it's not the full on pripit marches at this part but, but it's still fairly, kind of fairly fairly boggy. And they finally reached the, the Rollbahn to Corbin at around 2:30am on June 23.

[Al Murray]

Right. That's real progress in a day. And they, they're struck by the fact that it's not like an outer barn, it's a compacted dirt road that they're entering somewhere quite different to modern Germany, aren't they? You know the villages are really, really simple. They're basic homesteads with a central open pulpit for addressing the populace. Interestingly, the people are quite well disposed to the, to the Germans as they arrive, you know, they're cheering and offering eggs and butter and stuff. I mean, I probably would cheer arriving troops. Jim, I don't know about you, on balance. On balance, I think it's probably the sensible thing to do, to offer eggs and butter.

[James Holland]

Well, pragmatism is a better, is the better source of valor.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, possibly, but you could you. But, but it's also interesting that that happens and that and that, because after all, it's not like the Soviet Union has, has been on a, you know, 20 year charm offensive with its own peoples, is it? I mean, this is the thing.

[James Holland]

Not remotely.

[Al Murray]

Not remotely. And by nine o' clock that morning they can see the distant houses of Corbyn across the flat open. This is the great, these great big open spaces that are part of the terrain. Von Rosen is a bit miffed because third Panzer Division go to Corbyn first but there's still no opposition, that the Red army aren't putting up a fight done at all. Yeah, it's extraordinary, isn't it? They stop, they need petrol and Von Rosen, he goes for sort of a nosy, doesn't he, to, to have a look at what's going on. He sees various, various, what he regards a shady type staring at him and realizes he hasn't brought his pistol with him, so rushes back to his Panzer.

[James Holland]

Yeah, he just suddenly feels, oh, I'm a bit exposed here.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, you know, so sensible. Yeah, yeah.

[James Holland]

Maybe I shouldn't be wandering alone through

[Al Murray]

the back streets of Corbyn having invaded.

[James Holland]

Having invaded, yes. Just got there that morning, comes across

[Al Murray]

some of his fellow troops breaking into a street kiosk and gets some cigarettes and soap, which he takes back for the lads in his tank because it's going well, they've got to keep going is the other thing.

[James Holland]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, but, but, but, but isn't it interesting? I mean, they're doing what all tankers do when they stop. They're having a brew, getting the food on and suddenly the order comes on to kind of, you know, off they go.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

So they cross to the suburbs to, to, to a Soviet fuel depot at the railway goods yards. They fill up. But of course it takes time because it's, you know, it's, it's pouring it into a Jerry can, pour in the Jerry can, into, into the, you know, and so on. But anyway. But by the evening, Third Panzer Division is ahead again and it's in action on the edge of Corbyn, on the far side of Corbyn. But fourth Panzer Division is able to bypass them, get round it and rejoin the roll barn. And Von Rosen and his Company are now in the vanguard and they're absolutely thrilled about this. They stop for the night about 10 km beyond the town in Yetmore woods, and von Rosen finds a barn there, I thought an abandoned barn with some straw in it, grabs a load and settles down by the tank engine, which is warm because it gets cold at night, even though it's warming the day. Revai is then at 4am and 10 minutes later, they're moving out. There's absolutely no hanging around washing coffee, shaving that, you know, forget that. But we got it. We got to get on. They're all absolutely dusty as hell because these are all dirt roads. There's lots of vehicles. There's unprecedented amounts of vehicles going on these dirt roads. And of course, the dust is absolutely horrific. That dust is hurt. He reckons they all look like pigs. The uniforms, he says, are no longer black but filthy gray. But to a certain extent, we're jumping the gun here with our account of Richard von Rosen's experience, because we've talked about planning disagreements between Hitler and the OkH that overcommanded it here, the Army General Staff. And what is it that they finally settle on? What is the plan for Barbara Rosser? And, of course, how does Richard von Rosen fit into this? We need to ask for this.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, we do. We absolutely do. This is the thing Hitler wants. Hitler wants to clear up the Baltic, to take Leningrad, St Petersburg in the north, and then sweep into Ukraine in the south, and that Moscow is a secondary objective. And I think this is really interesting that they never can make their minds up about this. And one of the. I mean, one of the core problems is Hitler actually never can make his mind up and changes his mind on a sixpence. Prevaricates, sets people, sets people against each other to come up with different options and all this sort of thing, because Franz Halder and his planners believe that Moscow should be the prime aim rather than what Hitler wants. It's interesting, isn't it, because they've not reached the stage where Hitler, if Hitler says it absolutely happens. There is this, you know, you might call it creative tension here.

[James Holland]

It's very, very odd because. Well, because. Because I think it's quite odd because I think Hitler has made it absolutely clear that it's the Baltic States, it's Leningrad and it's Ukraine, because this is really about getting supplies. It's absolutely about destroying the Red army, but it's also about getting supplies and it's also about just annihilating the Red army within the first 500km. So there you've already got a conflict because what is it? It's the number one priority to destroy the red army within 500 km, or is the priority to get to the Baltic States and get to Leningrad and get into Ukraine? You know, which one is it? But the bottom line is the main effort is in the centre, which suggests you're driving towards Moscow. German forces divided into three army groups. Army Group north, which is heading in towards Baltic and Leningrad, Army Group south, which is heading into Ukraine, and Army Group center, which is comfortably the largest. And that's, you know, Moscow is in a straight line from eastwards from the center, effectively. So they don't know what their plan is. And it speaks to me, I don't know what you think about this. It speaks to me of a lack of clarity, a lack of resolution at the very top. The hera, the army, you know, overseen from a planning point of view by General Franz Halder, is at odds with the Nazi High Command and with Hitler. And at the moment that Barbarossa starts, they have not resolved this. Yes.

[Al Murray]

And there's a kind of, there's a kind of sense of, well, we'll worry about that later, let's just smash the

[James Holland]

Red army and then everything else will just fall into place.

[Al Murray]

Everything will fall into place.

[James Holland]

So what it means is the emphasis, the emphasis on complete destruction, annihilation of the red army within 500 km of their start point is absolutely key to the entire plan. And if they don't achieve that, this is going to start to unravel very quickly. If they're not careful.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. Then the things they're hoping will come up later. Won't come up, basically. And the, and the core problem is it's the biggest taking on the biggest army in the world. Largest military machine and infrastructure in the world.

[James Holland]

So isn't this interesting, though?

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

Isn't this interesting? Because the way Barbarossa is painted is this is the largest military invasion, military operation of all time. There's no other greater military force that's invading. Maybe not, but the one they're up against is kind of 10 times the size. Yeah, well, certainly five times the size.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And in certain parts, 20 times the size. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Al Murray]

And, and a society that is geared to this, you know, if Germans, you regard German as militaristic, if you want. The Soviet Union is completely militarized. You know, the, the, its industry, the way it's ordered, the way it works, is completely militarized, isn't it? It's the thing. So, yeah, The Russians. The Russians, you know, the Soviets don't have this. You know, the Germans spend a fair chunk of the war trying not to bring in rationing and trying not to bring about a, you know, politically trying not to admit that they're in a total war situation, you know, because they could. They can do this. They could pull this off. Whereas the Soviet society is absolutely geared to doing whatever. Whatever. Whatever its government wants and just will that. There's that element too, isn't it? That's not in the German reckoning. They think it'll. It'll be fine. We're the best at this.

[James Holland]

And this taps into overconfidence and hubris and racial superiority and all sorts of things. And, you know, after all, in 1940, Germany faced France that was, on paper, militarily stronger than the Wehrmacht. And that's even before you add Britain, Netherlands and Belgium, and they still won in six weeks. So they're kind of, you know, just thinking, well, how hard can it be? But the Red Army, I mean, the Red Army, Air Force, the vvs, is on a different scale of enormity altogether. And of course, this is on a vastly bigger geographical front than anything they've come up against in. In. In France.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, there's the huge possibility they're biting off more than they can chew, basically. And because the front. I mean, the front is enormous, isn't it? The Soviet front is. Is absolutely gigantic. And. And because I think so often this story is looked at from the. The German perspective, as you say, you know, the biggest army in the world ever, the greatest assault of all time, this many tanks. But, so we. We should actually. Rather than talk about Army Group center and Army Group north and Army Group south, what are the. What, what. What are the Soviet arrangements? Because there are no fronts at this point. Fronts come later and. And a front means an army group in Red army speak. What we've got is districts that they're organized into. The Leningrad Military district district, then the Baltic Special Military District, which runs from Riga, is that. You've got the River Davina running down from Riga, running southeast. That's another key German objective.

[James Holland]

Yeah, it sort of. It runs southeast. It runs southeast into kind of, you know, into Belarus, and that will.

[Al Murray]

That will mutate into the Northwest front. Then there's the Western Special Military District, which will eventually become the Western Front. It's interesting to talk about this war as a Western front as well, isn't it? Rather than. It's the Eastern Front, you know, immediately different perspective. And this includes the Bialystok's salient, which is a bulge around 100 miles deep, which then curves back towards Brest Litovsk, which is a fortress town, which is, after all, the scene of the Russian surrender in March 1918. And another reason that Germans think they're going to win is that they beat them last time. You know, they beat them last time here in the same place.

[James Holland]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. But also Bialystok. Bialystok is. Is. Was in Poland.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

So. So, you know, this is. This is a. This is a bulge that's. That's in former Polish territory. And this is where Army Group center is opposite. Yeah, basically, yeah. Running west through Smolensk is the river Dnieper.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

Which is 50 miles west of a city and then turns south and runs almost due south to Kiev.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

As it was then called, along the eastern edge of the. Of the Pripyat marches. So there are all these sort of rivers which are going to have to come up against. And then south of Brester Tovsk is the Red Army's Kiev Special Military District, which is going to come the southwest front. And to the west of Lviv, former Lemberg, is another west bulging salient. So these, you know, salience are never a great idea because, of course, they're just extending your frontier. You're offering flanks, you know, rather than a straight line. You've got to go round. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you can be outflanked. Exactly. Then south of the Kiev Special Military District is the Odessa Military District on the Black Sea. And this is. This area of Ukraine is where the Red army is strongest. Of course, this is because they're getting ready to be able to thrust south eastwards into Romania. Yeah. You know, this is, this is the plan. You know, I think there's too much debate and discussion over kind of, you know, Stalin was just moving up all his forces. You know, he didn't have any plans to invade. Invade Germany. Yes, he did. You know, it was. He was supposed to be ready by the third week of July. Whether he actually chose to go for it at that point is a moot point. But that was what the military buildup of the Red army was. Was working towards. Was. Was. Was that.

[Al Murray]

Yes, an offensive was carrying on, tidying up these buffer states. And anyway, you've got a great big army like that. It can't be sat around. You need to be moving it up. You need to have things for it to do, don't you?

[James Holland]

Exactly.

[Al Murray]

Or what is it? It's the, it's the. It's the sort of. The point. So this Army Group south is facing this strongest concentration of Soviet forces. And this is Field Marshal Gert von Rundsted, who's, you know, if this were. If the Second World War were a drama, he's a recurring. A recurring guest star.

[James Holland]

He's in episodes 1, 3, 7 and 9. Not all of them, not in all of them.

[Al Murray]

And he makes a surprise return having been sacked at various. Various points. And of course, Army Group south is so enormous because the front's so huge, it's split into. Again, it's split into two groups itself. So the. Just the dilution that's going on in the German setup is interesting. And the dilution of, again, you know, concentration of force, which is what it should be all about. So there's north grouping and Southern grouping. North grouping has 6th Army, 17th army, first Panzer gripper in it. That's 797,000 men. I mean, this is still these numbers.

[James Holland]

Well, the point about this is you've got three army groups, Army Group North, Army Group Centre, Army Group South. But Army Group south is effectively two army groups because the southern grouping is also a group of armies. You know, a Panzer group is an army.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

You know, that's three armies, so that is a group of armies. But when you're splitting it up like that, you're splitting it. So. So yes, you have concentration of force. I mean, you know, 800,000 men, by anyone's reckoning, is a decent concentration of force. It's not 2 million men, you know, it's not all quite what it seems, I suppose that's what I'm saying, really trying to say. The Kiev Special MD is under the command of Colonel General Mikhail Kriponos and Kripinos has his headquarters in Kiev and is expecting this to be the main thrust of the German attack. So he's got five armies and a six forming behind. Because although Sarnia is going. The Germans won't do it. They won't do it. They wouldn't dare. Everyone else recognizes that this is. Yeah, this is happening. And their intelligence is that Army Group south is whopping and this is the most likely place they're going to attack, because why wouldn't they? Because otherwise you're going to run into the Privet Marches and if you're German, nice, obvious route seems to be to go into Ukraine and take the Black Sea ports and get that and get to the Caucasus and get the breadbasket of Ukraine and blah, blah, blah. And you know what? They're right in that, you know, that is the most obvious route to go.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, well, if they're not going to go to Moscow, because after all, the Germans don't know what they're trying to do. And the fact that the Soviets have, in a way a clearer idea is interesting in itself, isn't it? You've also got the Romanians in the mix here facing Odessa. You've the southern grouping of Army Group south, which is the German 11th army and the Romanian 3rd and 4th Armies. So this is, this is part of the pan European.

[James Holland]

Another group of Armies.

[Al Murray]

Another group of armies. Right. But this is the Pan European crusade, of course, to take on Bolshevism that the Romanians have been tickled into. Runstead's plan is to send the northern grouping eastwards to reach the Dnieper south of Kiev, by which time the river is flowing south eastwards. And the intention is to prevent the Red army from falling back to the river and using it as a shoulder, basically. And then the southern grouping is ready to stop the Red army thrust into Romania and protect the plesty oil fields and, you know, after all, petrochemicals, as we outlined in our first couple of episodes in the build up to Barbarossa, a huge part of the story here, actually access to fuel. The Odessa military district is only just forming up when, for whatever it's preparing to do when the southern grouping makes its move. I mean, there's lot, lots of moving parts on there, Jim.

[James Holland]

Well, there is. And then there's Army Group north, which is, you know, the one that's supposed to be going to, to the Baltic States and to Leningrad, but Leningrad is one way and the Baltic States are another way. So what you, what are you going to do is you're, you're going to be splitting your forces again. So you split Army Group south into two. You're splitting your army, your army group north into two as well. Effectively. This is commanded by Field Marshall Ritter von Leeb. It's 18th Army, 16th army and 4th Panzer groups. That's smaller. 641,000 men. You know, it's still decent. Decent number. Wow. So Lieb's task is to capture the Baltic ports, of course, overrun Soviet gains from the previous June, I. E. The Baltic, and then push on to Leningrad. And the aim of this is to deny the Soviet Navy of any Baltic bases, but also to hoover up the huge industrial complexes in and around Leningrad, which are considerable, by the way.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And so they've got to reach the River Dvina, which runs in a kind of sort of southeastly direction. And once They've got their 4th Panzer group and 16th army are going to push onto Leningrad, while the 18th army is going to clear the rest of Estonia and the Baltic coast, you know, so, yes, you're splitting your forces and that, I would argue, is leaving quite a lot to one army. But anyway, there's also the Finnish front, which we shouldn't forget because Finland borders the Soviet Union basically near Leningrad. This is obviously subsidiary and Germanized, but the Finns still have two armies and the Germans also have troops on hand from Norway, so just under half a million in all, of which 150,000 are. Are Finns. 250,000 German. Commanding the Leningrad Military District is Lieutenant General Markin Popov. He's got around 426,000 men, so slightly more than the German and Finns. So, you know, your whole kind of rule of thumb, three to one advantage in manpower at the point of attack. Not really happening, is it? And I would argue that the 3 million men that the Germans amass for this huge dive is nowhere near enough for the task they've given them. No, I mean, nowhere near.

[Al Murray]

No. No matter how well it might go, is the thing which is one of

[James Holland]

the reasons why Stalin is so disbelieving about all the evidence, which is absolutely piling up in the weeks, weeks before the launch of Barbarossa, that the Germans are going to do a. Launch such an attack, because it just seems insane to make any sense. But that's also because he's got a very inflated opinion of this huge military might that he's amassed since 1928.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. Anyway, so panic begins to descend on the Kremlin as Barbarossa gets underway and you've Marshal Smay on Timoshenko, who's the People's Commissar for Defense, and General Gorgy Zhukov, who's the Chief of Staff, the Red Army. They're absolutely convinced, aren't they, that. That the intelligence is telling them that this thing's coming. And Stalin. Nah, don't believe it. And on 16 June, Stalin is told of an imminent attack from a spy who's at the Luftwaffe headquarters in Berlin. They've got someone inside Berlin and Stalin. What does Stalin say? Jim?

[James Holland]

Tell the source and the staff of the German air force to fuck his mother.

[Al Murray]

There we go.

[James Holland]

There's not much diplomatic softening there, is there?

[Al Murray]

Yeah. And Timoshenko is. He's making moves. He's moving troops up in anticipation of this attack. But on 18 June, Stalin says to

[James Holland]

him, if you're Going to provoke the Germans on the frontier by moving troops there without our permission. Then heads will roll, mark my words. I. Yours, Timoshenko.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. And this is a bloke who does roll heads as well. This isn't. This isn't a. This isn't a cutesy turn of phrase, is it?

[James Holland]

Well, he doesn't roll heads. He just shoots them.

[Al Murray]

Well, yeah, yeah, but. Exactly. But what it doesn't mean is he's not going to get his. Not going to get his pension or something or whatever. It's. It's.

[James Holland]

Yes, it doesn't mean, you know, sent in disgrace to his dacha.

[Al Murray]

No, no, your head will actually roll. And the rail. And the thing is, I mean, this is one of the reasons for a lot of the outcome that follows, isn't it, is that the railway is up to the border and all the roads are teeming with vehicles and troops, and they've got vast tank parks and dumps of stuff, and there's new airfields, and the airfields are not yet properly camouflaged

[James Holland]

because they're going to attack in July. They're getting ready for the third week of July. They're not getting ready for now, you know, so. So, so this is. This is all happening kind of a

[Al Murray]

month early and offering themselves up rather to the Germans because, again, they're not in a defensive posture. And everyone know. Everyone basically knows something's afoot. But Stalin won't authorise a full response. You're playing with fire if you want to go behind his back on that. And so they're. They're preparing for their own. Their own offensive that they've been cooking up since May. And the expectation is the Red army and the VVS, the Air Force will be able to attack on the 25th of July. So that there is a. This is a vulnerable moment, actually, for the Soviets because they're sort of. They're getting ready for something else. They aren't. They don't do defense, and they're. And they're sort of, you know, their eggs are all in this one basket.

[James Holland]

Well, they're all. They're all gathering at the border to make a nice juicy target. Yeah. They're planning for their own operations. But as you say, the danger is the Germans attack first and catch them with their trousers.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

But I think it's really important to understand that, you know, what. You know, this has been the big mystery. Why was Stalin so mis. Misbelieving of the evidence? You know, why does he dismiss it? And it's because he simply can't believe that Hitler's numerically massively inferior forces would risk attacking, you know, but, but the problem with this is that, like Hitler, Stalin doesn't have a military background. He hasn't been to staff college. You know, he hasn't commanded armies and fields. He doesn't really understand logistics. And it's also the problem that Churchill has later on in the war that they look at figures and they interpret them as massive power rather than thinking, well, okay, how many are actually fully trained and committed and well officered and well commanded and are our logistic trains up to it and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. They just look at the figures and that's the issue. Anyway, the first moves, of course, are by the Germans, and it's ahead of Barbarossa. So I think in an echo of the Polish Invasion Regiment 800, the Brandenburgers, who are, you know, Special Forces, I suppose, and they're mostly trained with. They're mostly Russian speakers, Germans dressed in Red Army NKVD uniforms. Because at the border, the border guards and border security and the construction battalions are all NKVD rather than Red Army. And the main aim of these Brandenburgers, this Regiment 800, is to cut communications, ensure the bridges can't be demolished and spread false orders and disinformation. And it's got to be said, it works. An absolute dream.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. And the Soviets are very. They're very dependent on telephones. They don't really trust the radio.

[James Holland]

It's like a repeat of the French in 1940s.

[Al Murray]

The Brandenburg has cut all the phone lines to a 50 kilometer depth, which is amazing. Yeah, yeah. And so Soviet Fourth army, they try and alert their subordinate formations of the. Of an incoming attack, but they can't get through to them.

[James Holland]

Operator. Operator. Yeah, exactly.

[Al Murray]

And this means that the entire front, which is 1800 kilometers, the. The Germans have. The Germans have, Have broken their com communications chain completely. And there's only. The last 8km from the border are where telephone cables are dug in and the. But the restaurant telegraph poles are completely vulnerable. And this, this saves you having to jam any. Do any radio jamming, doesn't it? It leaves your own radio comms free to air, right? That you're not, you're not gonna. You've not got a cluttered up radio space.

[James Holland]

Exactly. But, but what it does mean is you've got this situation where the border is controlled by the NKVD, you know, to a depth of 25 to 80 kilometers behind. That's where the Red army divisions are. They're not any closer than that. And obviously there's interservice rivalry and tension between the NKVD and the Red army, because the Red army are soldiers and the nkvd, you know, secret intelligence, effectively.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And so there's always going to be that, that natural suspicion isn't there that the NKVD are going to DOB in the Red army and the Red army are kind of, you know, paying them lip service only and stuff. So. So it's interesting that Kripianos works in Ukraine in what had been the Kiev military District, which immediately becomes the southwest front on the launch of Barbarossa. He gets on better with his NKVD fellows than others. And the coordination, the cooperation on that front is much, much better than it is on the, you know, in the Western front and in the north, in the Baltic front also. What's amazing is these two German conscripts.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. Who are communists, because after all, Germany was chock full of communists in the, you know, 30s and 40s and they slip through the lines or, or make their way over rivers to. And to warn the Germans that it's coming. One reaches at the NKVD lines at around 09:00 on 21 June, another one an hour before Barbarossa begins. Both Timoshenko and Zhukov at the Kremlin are with Stalin from 8:50 that, the night of the 21st of June, by which time, you know, they, they've got plenty of evidence to say, look, there is an imminent attack and they bung in the first deserters report, you know, to say, look, here it, here it's actually happening. Stalin still doesn't believe him. They're still not sure. Timoshenko wants to issue an immediate directive ordering the army into action, but Stalin resists. No, we're not doing that.

[James Holland]

Yeah, yeah. It's amazing, isn't it?

[Al Murray]

It is. It is amazing. And because of the way things turn out, it's sort of even more amazing because. Because had the Red army acquitted itself better in the, in the, in these opening phases, we wouldn't be looking at this, I think. Quite so it wouldn't seem to mean so much. Right.

[James Holland]

It's fair to say, I think that Stalin is an alpha male and, and I think it's fair to say that he just doesn't want to back down on this. This is Stalin's hubris.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

He just cannot believe that Germany would do this because to him it makes no sense and because he's always paranoid, because he's always suspicious, you know, someone coming in and saying something. You know, he cherry picks the intelligence that he wants to believe that fits his own view.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

Rather than just carte blanche accepting everything because he's a naturally deeply suspicious and mistrusting person.

[Al Murray]

And what he's also not going to do is agree in a meeting straight away he's going to go, you go away, come back, and then maybe I've changed my mind. He's not. They're not going to be able to bounce him into making a decision here and now, are they? That, that is not how it works.

[James Holland]

No. And of course, you know, so what happens is there's a compromise and compromises and a very good one. So Timoshenko and Zhukov leave the Kremlin, leave Stalin at 10:20pm with a watered down orders later termed Nko order number one, which is finally released at half past midnight on, you know, so within the first 30 minutes of 22 June. And this warns all airfields and air crews to be at combat readiness for troops to occupy all fire points, but to not open fire or attack across the border without special permission. It's only reaching the frontline units about an hour before H hour. In other words, the order was to be at combat readiness without provoking the Germans. But you know, this is a bit something or nothing, isn't it? And the worry is, of course, is that from, from an airfield point of view, you've got all your guys sat on the ground waiting to be destroyed by the Luftwaffe. Anyway, Zhukov rings Stalin at half past midnight to tell him of this second, second deserter that's come in. Stalin orders the German to be interrogated and then shot.

[Al Murray]

Meanwhile, the airfields are full of crews on readiness but not allowed, not allowed to take off. I mean, like a great big fat sitting duck. We're gonna, we're gonna take a break and look at the opening moves of Barbarossa shortly, when, when finally we're gonna get this thing underway.

[James Holland]

I'm Mary Beard. And I'm Josephine Quinn. At the Rest is Fest this September,

[Al Murray]

we're putting on a show that can

[James Holland]

only be described as an iconoclastic romp through the ancient world. We're talking, talking about leaders behaving badly, emperors putting their horses in charge, cities built by asylum seekers, and empires getting their comeuppance. There will be some proper myth busting. But we'll also be asking why these myths matter even when we know they're wrong.

[Al Murray]

So if you love your ancient history

[James Holland]

and you're free on September 6th, get your ticket now and join us at London South Bank Centre. Tickets are on sale now. Just visit Southbankcentre.co.uk.

[Al Murray]

that's Southbankcentre.co.UK. Welcome back to We Have Ways Of Making youg Talk with Me, Al Murray and James Holland. We've promised you that Operation Barbarossa is going to begin. We've teased you, we've nudged and nurdled you to this point. So here we go, Jim, the opening moves.

[James Holland]

Well, it comes, it comes, comes from the Soviet Navy. So, so the, the commander in chief of the Soviet Fleet, Admiral Nikolai Kuznetsov, he goes to see Zhukov just after midnight on 22 June and ask Zhukov if use of weapons is authorized, which, you know, because the directive is, as we've NKO order number one is, is incredibly woolly. And Zhukov just goes, yes. And so Kuznetsov goes back down to his own new headquarters and issues orders for all fleets and naval bases to be at readiness state 1, which is the highest alert state, and ready to fire at any moment. This goes out at 2:40am Soviet time, which is 1:40am German time. The Germans are kind of one hour ahead, reaches the shore batteries and warships much more quickly than orders to land forces because, of course, their telephone lines haven't been cut because they're further inland. And then the first air attacks by the Luftwaffe are launched at 3 o'. Clock. So 4 o' clock Soviet time, and the German artillery opens up with his opening barrage at 3:15am Anyway, reports, the reports from the naval base at Sebastopol announced that there's incoming enemy bombers at 3:17am I mean, can you believe it? Yeah, all that way. And the Soviet Navy is ordered to immediately open fire. So the Soviet Navy, the first, first part of the Soviet troops to open fire on the Germans. Anyway, at sunrise, The Luftwaffe Hits 66 VVS Red Army Air Force airfields. And for those who don't know, the VVS means Voreno, Vozdushni, silly. Most of which are in the western areas, which is where the Red army air crew and aircraft are waiting on standby. In other words, they are, you know, as we said before the break, you know, they are sitting ducks. And bombs and lead also raining down on Brest, Litovsk, on Bialystok, on Minsk, on Lvov, on Kiev, on Zytomir and even Sevastopol, as we mentioned. And 1817 VVS aircraft are destroyed almost, you know, within the opening hours, 1498 of them on the ground, 322 firefighters and flak. And just to put that in some context, the worst day for the Luftwaffe in the battle of Britain, 15th of August, they lose 76. You know, the worst day for the Luftwaffe in the entire War is the 10th of May 1940, where they lose 352. On day one. The VVS loses 1,817.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. And then at half past three in the morning, the Germans all the way along the Soviet border begin moving off and, and heading east. So should we start with Army Group center then? Because, I mean, there are lots of moving parts as we, as we've outlined. And von Rosen, who we opened the episode with, he's, he's experiencing, what he's saying is the, it's not the Red army not putting up a fight as such. It's the Red army just being in complete chaos, being in complete organizational disarray and they've, they've, they've been caught because of the way they've been deployed and because of what they're preparing for and because the Germans have disrupted their communications completely. They've just got their trousers right around their ankles from north to south. And in Belarus, in Belarusia is at the time Von Bock's Army Group Center. They crack on clinically, efficiently, using very fast, using their all arms operational and tactical slickness. This with their panzer divisions. Here's some blitzkrieg, if this is what you want, right? Close air support for the Luftwaffe, tactical air support. And they have made, they've made great comms. Great comms. It's all, everything, everything working. Everyone fresh as well is the other thing. And they're 60 to 70 kilometers into the Soviet Union by the end of the first day, which is quite, quite a leap, isn't it? Army Group north under von Leeb, it's the same for them. They've reached the Dvina river we were talking about before. The Red army has figured out what's going on. And the Dvina is very wide. I mean, these rivers, these rivers in this part of the world, you know, they're, they're, they're serious obstacles, aren't they? 700 to 1300 yards wide.

[James Holland]

Yeah. So that's, you know, that's, that's a third to kind of, you know, 2, 3/5 of a mile wide, isn't?

[Al Murray]

Yeah, it's, it's big. And the Germans, in crossing this river, amazingly, they lose only three blokes killed in action and 14 wounded as they get across. And this is 6 Panzer Division in this, in the vanguard here. And the Luftwaffe do a really, really great job keeping the Red army and the Red Air Force at bay because they're closer to the border, because they're at Konigsberg. So they've. They've got shorter hops, which means they've

[James Holland]

got more time in the air, etc.

[Al Murray]

Exactly. And. And more sorties in a day as well. And the.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

Here the Red air force lose 920 out of 1080 combat aircraft in the first three days. The first three days. That's a proper kicking, isn't it?

[James Holland]

So there is some opposition, particularly breast of Tops, which is this fortress. It's a 19th century walled fortress. You know, it's a kind of sort of Vauban kind of vibe. You know, the, you know, the thing. There's lots of water around it, there's huge great earthworks, there's sort of thick walls. And it's stormed by the German 45th Infantry Division, but beaten back by seven battalions of the 6th Arel Red Banner and 42nd Rifle Divisions and elements of the 17th NKVD Border Guards Detachment. So around 3,500 men in all, which to me doesn't sound like very many.

[Al Murray]

No.

[James Holland]

Anyway, here the, here the Red army do stand their ground. And although resistance in the city collapses by 24 June, the fortress itself holds out, fights on well into July, even though most of the fortress is overrun on 30 June. And there are some Red army men that keep fighting until the third week of July. And one of the heroes, and he's one of the kind of the great legends of the Great patriotic war is Major Peter Gavrilov, who is commander of the 44th Rifle Regiment of the 46th Division. And he and one other NKVD officer managed to hide from the German troops along with 12 other Russians until the 20th of July. And amazing. Away he's taken prisoner by the. By the Germans. He does survive the war.

[Al Murray]

Incredible.

[James Holland]

And isn't properly then shot by Stalin either. Wow. So, you know, there is some resistance, but the main, you know, that's a distraction. And it is an infantry, a German infantry division which is attacking Brest Litovsk. And while they're doing that, those Panzer groups are sweeping either side of Brest and just careering off. So third Panzer Group in the north, which is under Jemel Haute, the second Panzer Group to the south, which is under Guderian. So Panzer Group Guderian Panzer Group Hote as their authority, also known as and Ho's third Panzer group sweeps into Vilnius on the 23rd of June. So just, you know, the second day. And general Pavlov, who is commanding the Western Front orders a counterstroke north into the flank of the third Panzer Group at Grodno. But he's way too slow because by the time they get there third Panzer group is already, you know, it's already hurtful passes now 100 kilometers. These are 60 miles. Wow. You know, leaving the follow up infantry and artillery to shoot up the oncoming and lightly armed Red army mechanized forces which, which Pavlov has sent and they're just completely destroyed because they're not on the roads, they're going across the kind of marshy bit and straight into a field of anti tank, of German anti tank guns and so on. And so with H forces hurtling towards Minsk and with the counter thrust already on 50% casualties, Pavlov thinks yikes, you know, this isn't working and orders his forces to withdraw to a defensive position. But this just means they're now surrounded in a giant encirclement because Panzer group Guderian is aping what HOTE is doing to the north, to the south. And of course at the same time the Luftwaffe is hammering the Red army in the Bialystok pocket. Everything Pavlov tries is just getting smashed. And the reason the Luftwaffe are able to run amok is because of course they've destroyed the vvs.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

You know, all VVS forces close to the border are kaput. You know, you know when you're getting 972 out of 1080 of your aircraft, you haven't got much of an air force left.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Holland]

So you've got the twin disasters facing the Red army of no air support and very poor comms.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

Where have we heard that before? You know, it is a repeat of the French mistakes of 1940.

[Al Murray]

For quite different reasons though. But it's the same effect.

[James Holland]

For quite different reasons but the outcome is the same.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. By 28 June, Kadarian and Hoth's or Hurts Panzer groups. They've met and they've completed this great encirclement. They've got four Soviet armies in the vice and Pavlov of course is arrested for having failed sometime between the 1st and 6th of July. And he's shot on the 22nd of July along with his chief of Staff, his Chief of Comms, Major General Alexander Korobkov, who's the fourth army commander. So there's some port encourager les autres going on in the Soviet setup there, isn't there? You just have to try harder lads. And then, and then, Then of course, because. Because there are all These different German thrusts. There's Army Group north and the Baltic States. And this is felt Marshall Von Leeb. And they are met by enthusiastic civilians welcoming them as liberators.

[James Holland]

Because don't forget the Baltic states were independent until the previous June.

[Al Murray]

Those people are reading the Germans wrong. Let's have no illusions about that. But, but, but it's interesting that that's their initial reaction in Lithuania. The German, the Soviets are already into their thing of deporting people politically decapitating the place. And there's, there's armed revolt coming anyway. And you've got the resistance movement, the Lithuania activist front, the laf. They immediately, with the arrival of the Germans, spring into action. They occupy government buildings, they, they set up a radio station. They announced the formation of a new government on the 24th of July. June.

[James Holland]

Yeah, good luck with that.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. Got ahead of themselves there, haven't they?

[James Holland]

Perhaps a little bit.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

This is the Germans. You're Nazis you're dealing with.

[Al Murray]

Exactly. And then there are similar, similar uprisings and rebellions in Latvia and Estonia. Meanwhile, Fon leaves. Forces crash onwards. The Red army tries launching a counter attack, just amazing, against 4th Panzer group. And this is smack smashed. And on the 25th of June. So three days in 8 and 11th armies of the Red army, they both withdraw to the Dvina to get out, get out of the way. Basically, they're meant to meet up the 21st Mechanized Corps and two further armies, but they're too slow.

[James Holland]

Exactly. So the idea is you, you fall back the Dvina, you organize yourselves and then you do a counter attack again. You know, when you, when you kind of, you know, got your balance back. Yeah, but they don't get their balance because they're too slow to move and too slow to coordinate.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And General Erich von Manstein's 56th Panzer Corps reaches the Divina first and gets across.

[Al Murray]

Yes.

[James Holland]

So this forces the entire Soviet Northw front to completely abandon the river defenses. And on 29 June, Stavka, which is the military high command, orders it to withdraw to the Stalin line on the approaches to Leningrad.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

I mean, can you believe it?

[Al Murray]

Yeah. These opening bit moves are absolutely amazing, aren't they? This is why it's held up as this dazzling moment. And this is part of the sort of German, German war machine, mythic story, isn't it? What, what happens in this, these opening, opening weeks of Barbarossa, it's fair to say, isn't it? It's why, so people are so beguiled by the German way of war.

[James Holland]

Yeah, but, but I would say as with the fall of France, it's 50% German operational brilliance and, and tactical skill. And 50% Red army ineptitude.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

Just as it was 50% skill on the Germans in France and 50% French ineptitude. Yeah, it's, it's, it's not the overwhelming dazzlingness of the Germans that's winning. It's, it's a, it's a cock ups and it is, is again it is because the Red army is planning to invade, you know, their own opera offensive operations to begin on the 25th of July. So a month hence.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And they're not ready. You know, they're building up, but they're not ready. So they're concentrated without being ready for combat. That's the problem. So they're in a mass which makes them an easy target and they've got their comms is absolutely dreadful. And the air force is destroyed.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And so that then means that your spearheads can run amok because they can go fast and sigh through the countryside which is now empty because they've gone through the crust. And the crust is where the heavy, you know, this is why the Germans are going. Well it's great because we'll just annihilate them at the front because they know the Red army is at the front. So if you can get through that crust, there's nothing behind, which is why von Rosen is advancing and not seeing anyone to start off with when he advances.

[Al Murray]

It's interesting. This isn't though, because people in this sort of, when discussing this kind of stuff, there's the idea of the OODA loop, right, that you have your observe Orient side act loop, a command loop. Right. And the idea is you stay in your loop and you keep going and you get inside the other side's loop. But basically the Soviets are caught up, caught in their cock up loop.

[James Holland]

That's so well put.

[Al Murray]

German OODA loop aside, there is a cock up loop here that the Soviets simply cannot escape from. And the, everything they do is compounded by the rotten situation they're already in. And then, and then any, any alteration is further compounded by, you know, the poor decision making that preceded it. And, and they, they can't escape their cock up loop.

[James Holland]

And the cock up loop is almost entirely, falls almost entirely at the feet of Stalin. Yes, it is entirely his fault.

[Al Murray]

Yes.

[James Holland]

You know, well, we'll get onto this in a minute. You know, the blame for this catastrophe really does, I think fall squarely on his shoulders. Anyway. What about the Southern front, because there's that as well going on. So there's tougher fighting on the Ukrainian front, where Kriponovsk is actually quite good, and obviously where the Red army is strongest and through where, of course, Stalin is planning to attack if they do so at the end of July or in later part of the summer. And von Rundstedt's army group south only advances 15 to 17 miles on. On day one, the VVS here only loses 340 out of 1760 aircraft.

[Al Murray]

Right, okay.

[James Holland]

You know, it's still pretty bad, but it's not. It's not quite the wholesale slaughter of further north. And the Soviet southwestern front was, as we mentioned, the spearhead of all Soviet offensive plans. So the Galicia lvov pocket contains five armies, 64 divisions, including 24 tanker mechanized divisions. So 960,000 men, which is nearly 300,000 more than on the Belarusian front. They also have 12,600 artillery pieces and 4,800 tanks, which is more than the German forces along the entire front. And that's just in the Galicia Lvov salient. That's just one bit of the front. The Red army has superiority over the entire German front. And in total, on the Ukrainian front, there's 1.4 million Red army troops with 8,016 Hind tanks and 26,580 artillery pieces and 4,696 warplanes. You got to get with the scale, people. I mean, this is. This is in a different league, isn't it?

[Al Murray]

And the numbers throughout this, the Nazi Soviet war, which is, I think, a better name for it than the Eastern Front, in a way. The numbers are always boggling, aren't they? Giant amounts of people and stuff.

[James Holland]

Absolutely boggling. But we. But, but, but what? I think where the figures are most boggling is on the Russian side, even at this stage of the war, rather than on the German side.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, absolutely.

[James Holland]

The way we've traditionally painted this is the other way around, I would say. But anyway, one of the accusations is that Stalin loses a plot. He goes into his shell. He can't think straight. He has panic attacks and seems kind of broken by this shattering development. And this is one of the great myths needs to be examined. Was he really a rabbit in headlights and drinking himself into a stupor, incapable of leading, or is that not quite the right story?

[Al Murray]

But it doesn't really come from the most reliable source. It comes from Khrushchev, Nikita Khrushchev. When he takes over in 1956 after Stalin's died, he does a lot of peddling to distance himself and the regime from Stalin. So he's going to slag him off, isn't he? And, and, and he says, he, he says who played Khrushchev in Steve Buscemi. All right, okay. Bob Hoskins plays him in Stalingrad, doesn't he? Stalin thought he was a Ying after this. Stalin for a long time did not direct military operations and cease to do anything whatsoever. The myth is that he sends Barrier, who's head of the nkvd, out to offer peace Felix to Hitler. But this is, this isn't the case, is it, Jim?

[James Holland]

No, absolutely not. So, so, you know, we now have access all there has been the brief window which you get into the Kremlin archives, historians look through the logbooks and it shows that Stalin worked through the day on 22 June with his first meeting with Molotov, Beria, Zhukov and Timoshenko at 5:45am The NKO directive number two, the first one was issued at half past midnight, is issued at 7:15am authorizing all commanders to destroy enemy forces. He didn't personally address Soviet people that day, but he did approve Molotov's public address. Further meetings throughout the day and the next war cabinet at 3.30am on 23 June. And later that day, on 23 June, Stalin works through to 1.25am on 24 June and establishes a new Red army command, the Stavka, which is chaired by Defence Commissar Marshal Timoshenko, but of which Stalin is also part. On the 24th of June, he convenes war cabinets between 4:20 and 9:30pm and then again on the 25th of June from midnight to 6:30am So I don't think you can accuse him of slacking, can you?

[Al Murray]

No.

[James Holland]

Stalin is also the sole signature of the Politburo resolution to accelerate construction of KVs T34s and T50 tanks. And you know, everything points at Stalin being at his desk more or less around the clock and that he's totally, totally, totally on it, but it is largely his fault. If you're going to be an autocratic dictator and, and rule the roost on absolutely everything, when things go tits up, you've got to also not be surprised if people pointing the finger at you. And you know, he is instrumental in the weak defence. He doesn't act on the advice of Zhukov and Timoshenko. In many ways, he'd erase the zone of buffer states between the USSR and Germany by signing the Molotov River Trot Pact on 23 August 1939. You know, because by invading Poland, the Baltic States and Romania, this means the border is that much further westwards.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Holland]

So there's less distance for the Germans to go to get to the Soviet border.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, exactly.

[James Holland]

So, so. But the real problem of that is that the old defences along the old border, the old Stalin line, which is the original Soviet border, are now defunct. Which is fine if you're going to launch the offensive yourself, but if you're in a defensive role, that's a problem because you no longer have any border defences. What you've now got is vast airfields and tank parks which have been built on his assistance for their own Soviet Red army offensive, but not to defend the border. You know, it's also Stalin who's insisted on prioritising the procurement of light bombers and medium bombers and heavy tanks over defensive fighters and anti tank guns and AA guns. You know, because light bombers, medium bombers and heavy tanks are parts of your offensive arm rather than your defensive arm. There's just not enough defensive weapons. It is also Stalin who had insisted on invading six neighbours between 1939 and 1941. It was also his decision to attack Finland which had unquestionably encouraged Hitler to attack far earlier than he'd originally planned. I mean, you know, the invasion of Finland and Romania had actually badly backfired because both countries were now fighting against the Soviet Union when they wouldn't be bolstering the German attacking force. So Stalin's attempt to blackmail Hitler and use the economic leverage as a battering ram over the four power pack which we talked about in the first four episodes of this Barbarossa series, it was unquestionably also come back to hit him. So, you know, Stalin and the Soviet Union are now facing the onslaught because Stalin had cornered Hitler into a situation where, you know, as we discussed in the, you know, in the first part of this series, invasion is the Fuhrer's only real choice. And the final straw has been Stalin's backing of the British backed coup in Belgrade in which he unequivocally worked against his ally and broke the terms of the treaty. You know, in the first part of this series we were kind of sort of going, isn't Stalin smart? You know, he's done all this and isn't it clever? And, you know, he's done this around the back door. While Germany hasn't been looking and created this strategic situation for a dilemma for Hitler which he unquestionably is the case yeah, but now that their front is crumbling, it's not looking quite so smart. Depends on which perspective you're looking at it. Although what you could say is actually it's really smart move because what it's done is it's forced it to attack earlier, which he can never win and leads to his earlier defeat.

[Al Murray]

That's a bit of a reach right now, isn't it? Because after all, it's also Stalin who'd insisted on all the new airfield construction by the NKVD along the border. You know, within flying, just within a few minutes flying distance, the border, which, yes, you're a few minutes of flying distance from the border, but that means you're a few minutes flying distance from the border. You make it much easier for the Germans to, to fight, to locate the airfields and the first place and then strike them.

[James Holland]

Well, put it this way, it's not like flying from Germany to Dunkirk, is it?

[Al Murray]

No. And there's tank parks and petrol stations, lots of fuel, lovely juicy fuel near the border, pretty much undefended at the, by the time the Germans make their move. And also, as we've, as we've described, you've got these salients which are front loaded around Bialystok and Lvov. And this means Bialystok is basically encircled and rounded up in, in less than a week by Army Group Centre. Those troops are there because that's the, that's the posture Stalin's put them in, you know, rounded up by third, Third Panzer Group and second Panzer Group by Hoth and Guderian. It is firmly on him, isn't it?

[James Holland]

Completely 100%, yeah. And he's still talking about an offensive operation into Romania and into, into, into Hungary and Bulgaria. So, you know, which is why he then sends Zhukov off because General Kripinos is in command of, you know, what had been the Kiev md, which becomes a southwestern front. But on the night of 22 June, Stalin then issues NKO directive number three, which is, while maintaining a solid hold of the state boundary adjoining Hungary, concentrate attacks by the forces of the fifth and sixth Armies in the general direction of Lublin. Capture Lublin by the end of the day on 24 June. Krippinos keeps his command of the southwest front. But, but, but Zhukov is to lead this counter attack. Far from being shattered by Barbarossa on the first day, Stalin is actually ordering the southwestern front to spearhead an attack. You know, and part of this attack also includes bombing Romania and the Presti oil fields, which they do and also Bucharest, which is actually bombed on the 25th of June.

[Al Murray]

Right.

[James Holland]

So. So, you know, Red army bombers are going off and attacking this.

[Al Murray]

So it's not a passive, headless chicken posture at all.

[James Holland]

It doesn't solve his immediate problems.

[Al Murray]

No, of course, no, of course, of course it doesn't. But it also, it betrays the, you know, the fact that they are. He's still thinking of, in terms of his offensive operations rather than, rather than the great disaster that Hitler's betrayed him and he's been caught with his trousers down.

[James Holland]

That's absolutely spot on. But, but, but the other thing is, is again, like Hitler, he doesn't really understand military affairs. So everyone's been working towards this date of the 25th, July, to launch an offensive. If they're going to do it. It hasn't been decided, but that's what they're aiming towards. Now he's suddenly having to do it immediately. Zhukov is being sent, packed off to Ukraine and told, get on with it. But you can't just click your fingers and just mount an offensive because it takes time. Of course, unsurprisingly, it doesn't go very well because many of the new T34s and KVs get stuck on bridges which haven't been prepared for their weight. They collapse underneath them. And also they're attacked by Ukrainian nationalist guerrillas in their thousands, you know, which is amazing. So, so Major General Konstantin Rokossovsky, remember him?

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

At this stage he's only a major general and he's commanding the 9th Mechanized Corps and fights the Germans rather than, rather than the guerrillas. But he's only got light tanks. And his troops, they're just absolutely hammered by the Luftwaffe. They make absolutely no ground whatsoever. So there's fierce fighting around Lvov for nearly a week. And although Soviet bombers continue to pound plesty and book arrest well into July, it's just not enough. And they are being beaten. And the Red Army's casualties are absolutely horrific. There's a lack of radio comms, lack of coordination of forces along alongside insufficient air defense, means that despite the vast numbers, Red army and vvs, you know, as we said, like France before, are beaten in penny packets and detail and horribly outmanoeuvred by the more mobile and far better coordinated German forces.

[Al Murray]

And on the 30th of June, so we're eight days into this, Shukov and Kripinos order a retreat to the old pre1939 Ukrainian border, which is a withdrawal of 125 miles and they do succeed in avoiding encirclement. So their losses are nowhere near as bad as everywhere else because Kripinos, Krippinos is pretty good at, pretty good at his job and gets his chaps out of, out of the, out of the mess they've been landed in. It is interesting, this isn't. It's only really at the end of June when it's clear how it's going that Stalin becomes despondent. It's also clear that he just doesn't believe it. I mean, you know, Stalin's many things. He's also ideological, isn't. He believes that, he believes that the Soviet, you know, Marxist Leninist, Stalinist way of doing things is the best way of doing things. And it's, it's being, being completely traduced,

[James Holland]

challenged and challenged introduced is absolutely the

[Al Murray]

word, you know, by events and by a system that he regards as corrupt and antithetical to his own. So that can't, that can't have been an easy pill to swallow.

[James Holland]

Not at all. Not, not when you've got such huge overwhelming material advantage. And, and I mean, let's have a look at this. You know, in aircraft there's a 7 to 1 advantage. In artillery at the front there's a 5 to 1 advantage. That's just at the front. Overall artillery advantage 20.5 to 1. They've got bigger, better tanks than the Germans. And from Stalin's point of view this has to count for something, surely. And this is why he's so prone. He really believes that mass would matter. But on 28 June, he learns that the 4th army, the Soviet 4th army has been annihilated and a further four armies encircled by Army Group Center. And this, you know, he is truly shocked that the vaunted war machine which had taken 13 years to build up with all the latest foreign and domestic technology, you know, the Christie suspension and so on and so forth, and with his vast scale had been so swiftly and effortlessly, it seems, crushed. So he steels himself to address the nation on 3 July, by which time the strategic situation is from a Soviet point of view, very, very bleak indeed.

[Al Murray]

Yes, because I mean, you know, along a front of 1200 miles and six major rivers, the Germans have advanced all the way along the front. They've got over the Bug, they got over the Nime, the Dvina, the Berezina, the Goren and the Song Sluk. They're running rampant, aren't they? And the bug and the Dvina in particular, these enormous Rivers, gigantic, you know, continental rivers. And on the. On the 3rd of July, General Franz Halder writes in his diary, and then this is really interesting that he thinks this, at this stage, the objective of shattering the bulk of the Russian army in front of the Dvina and Dnieper has been accomplished. If defeat of the Red army is objective number one, they think they've done it already within a fortnight.

[James Holland]

And the truth is, all those gains that Stalin had, you know, the Red army had made in 1939-1940, which had taken months and months, have been lost within a matter of days, you know, so. So that means that they'd been Pyrrhic gains at the absolute best way of looking at it. On the other hand, Churchill has declared for the USSR and President FDR has also announced that the Lend Lease would extend to the Soviet Union. But of course, none of this material is going to reach the Eastern Front anytime too soon. I mean, certainly not for weeks and more likely months. So there is absolutely no question at the end of June that Stalin and the Soviet Union are absolutely on the brink. And the Stavka and the Soviet leadership is definitely struggling to work out what to do. And a part of this is trying to align Stalin's total misapprehension and realization that he'd got it completely wrong without having to admit it, and align that into a kind of coherent future plan. That's one thing. An evacuation committee for Moscow is established on 23 June, while on 27 June, secret orders are drawn up to start shipping crucial factories to the east of the renewals, which is 500 miles further east beyond Moscow. And the same resolution is also ordered the evacuation of State Diamond Fund and Kremlin treasures. And again on the same day, 27th of June, a further Politburo resolution signed by Timoshenko for the Stavka orders a scorched earth campaign across the European Soviet Union as the Red army falls back and Timoshenko orders all valuable property, raw materials or food stocks, all bread on the vine which cannot be exported intact. Anything which might be used by the enemy must be reduced to total disrepair that is destroyed, annihilated, burned. And I think it's fair to say it was to prove a very consequential order.

[Al Murray]

But it's all about to get even worse, which is the story we'll be telling in our next episode. The thing is, you can have too much winning, and we will see in the next episode the big cracks that start to appear in the German advance and the problems they are storing up for themselves in in making the progress they've had. They have. Join us in our next episode. If you want to hear that right now, then go to the we have ways of making you talk Patreon. Become a member. Join in. There's audiobooks, ticket offers, live streams, and the benefits of membership of a club of which you would rather be a member. Because you can talk about T34s and the other person listening won't glaze over, you'll be in good company. We will see you for the next episode. Cheerio.

[James Holland]

Cheerio.