Operation Barbarossa: Countdown (Part 4)

Summary

Podcast Summary: WW2 Pod – We Have Ways of Making You Talk

Episode: Operation Barbarossa: Countdown (Part 4)

Release Date: July 1, 2026
Hosts: Al Murray (Comedian, WWII enthusiast) & James Holland (Historian, Author)

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Overview

In this fourth installment of the Operation Barbarossa series, Al and James take a deep, multi-layered look at the “countdown” to Hitler’s 1941 invasion of the Soviet Union. Blending sharp historical analysis with characteristic humor, they explore diplomatic wrangling, intelligence games, uneasy alliances, and logistical nightmares on both Axis and Soviet sides as the world teeters on the edge of the greatest military campaign in history. The episode particularly zooms in on Stalin’s diplomatic maneuvering with Japan, the failures and hubris on the German side, and the hard realities about troop readiness and armaments that set the stage for Barbarossa.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Stalin-Matsuoka Drama: Soviet–Japanese Neutrality Pact

• Opening Scene – Al reads a vivid account of Stalin and Molotov’s surprising warmth as they see off Japanese foreign minister Matsuoka at a Moscow train station, quoting Sean McMeekin’s Stalin’s War ([03:31]).
• Countdown Conundrum – The Soviets and Japanese, both concerned with pressures on their borders, seek to neutralize the threat from each other, allowing each regime room for expansion elsewhere ([05:14]).
• Diplomatic Ironies – Despite being Axis allies, Japan and Germany do not share genuine trust. Matsuoka is viewed as unreliable by both Stalin and Hitler, and Ribbentrop (Hitler’s foreign minister) is indiscreet and meddlesome ([08:00]).
• Insight: “The similarities with the conundrum facing the Japanese and conundrum facing Hitler are really obvious, I think. But it is now in the interest of the Japanese to solve one of the problems which is the threat from the Soviet Union.” – James Holland ([06:08])
• The Pact’s Details – Signed April 13, 1941, the neutrality pact lets Japan focus south (into SE Asia) and the Soviets focus west (Europe). Key concessions are mostly from Japan, recognizing Soviet positions in Mongolia, Baltics, Poland, and Romania ([13:09–13:57]).
• Notable Quote:
  Matsuoka to Stalin: “If I lie, my head shall be yours. If you lie, I will come for your head.”
  Stalin’s reply: “My head is important to my country. So is yours to your country. Let's take care to keep both our heads on our shoulders.”
  – ([14:47–15:04])

2. The Impact of the Soviet–Japanese Pact

• Strategic Line: The Soviet–Japanese Pact “basically green lights what Japan has in mind in the Pacific… as important as the Soviet German Pact of August 1939” – Al Murray ([15:05]).
• Stalin's Influence: The hosts emphasize how pivotal Stalin was in shaping the outbreak and escalation of the conflict:
  “I think Stalin is dictating the pace on all of this, yeah, completely.” – James Holland ([16:05])

3. German Strategy Shift: Ideological War and Logistics

• Ideological Zeal: As Barbarossa nears, Hitler radicalizes—even among his generals—towards a war of extermination, both against the Red Army and against 'Judeo-Bolshevism'.
  • “Complete annihilation means extreme violence… this is not just a military vehicle. It’s the complete crushing of the Soviet state of communism itself.” – Al Murray ([19:11])
• The “Hunger Plan”: General Georg Thomas’s plan forecasts millions of Soviets dying by planned starvation as Germany takes food to “safeguard the Aryan ideal” ([19:45], [20:14]).
• Nuts & Bolts Problems: The Wehrmacht faces severe supply and equipment shortfalls, with 2000 different vehicle types present, causing massive headaches for logistics and spare parts ([33:25–34:18]).
• Notable Quote on German Short-sightedness:
  “The great victories—this unstoppable war machine as it seems—is papering over vast cracks.” – James Holland ([32:16])

4. The Intelligence Picture: Stalin’s Skepticism

• Ultra and Soviet Spies: Bletchley Park and Soviet moles send multiple warnings to Stalin of Germany’s intentions. Still, Stalin’s confidence (and perhaps cunning) leads him to underreact, possibly as cover for his own offensive plans ([25:13–26:15], [27:41]).
• Show of Strength: May Day parade and overt Red Army preparations signal both defensive readiness and the possibility of offensive intentions ([29:11–30:01]).
• Soviet Offensive Doctrine: By mid-May 1941, Soviet plans appear to call for a major counterattack into Romania/Bulgaria, not just pure defense ([30:38]).

5. The Actual State of the Armies

• German Weaknesses
  • Most divisions are under-equipped, supply trains are insufficient, and motorization/standardization is abysmally poor (Panzer divisions have wildly varying tank strengths; only 17 of 31 motorized divisions have modern Panzers) ([35:08–35:54]).
  • Luftwaffe’s effectiveness is drastically reduced, especially after Crete and the Blitz ([40:20]).
  • “They start Barbarossa with fewer aircraft than they began Falgelb on 10 May in 1940.” – Al Murray ([40:29])
  • Germans can sustain offensive supply lines for about 500km—beyond that, the “culmination point” is hit ([41:16]).
• Soviet Readiness
  • Despite reactive posture, the Soviets concentrate massive numbers of men, tanks, and guns; Red Army artillery pieces in the western sector outnumber German guns fourfold ([38:57], [43:24]).
  • Massive pre-invasion troop movements and deployment plans indicate Stalin expected or planned for a big clash, perhaps even to strike first ([43:07–43:24]).

6. Human Story: The View from the Front Line

• Eyewitness Account: The episode closes with Al reading from Richard von Rosen’s memories, as the dawn opening of Barbarossa lights up the sky with artillery fire and Hitler’s order frames the invasion as a mission “saving the culture of Europe from Bolshevism” ([44:37–45:37]).
• Atmospheric Moment: “After a short while the morning sky had turned red. Wherever one looked was on fire.” – Richard von Rosen ([44:37])

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Memorable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• On Axis diplomacy:
  “To say he's a loose cannon is, is, is an understatement. He's a womanizing, hard drinking, gung ho Japanese prince...”
  – James Holland, re: Matsuoka ([07:06])

• On setting Japan free in the Pacific:
  “Basically the thing that sets the Japanese free is the Soviet Japanese Pact... this is as important as the Soviet German Pact of August 1939, isn't it?”
  – Al Murray ([15:05])

• On German grand strategy:
  “All these guys that, you know, their grand strategy is kind of, it's kind of flawed, isn't it? To put it mildly.”
  – James Holland ([08:06])

• On German military logistics:
  “There will be 2000 different vehicles in the order of battle for the campaign, the forthcoming campaign.”
  – Al Murray ([33:25])

• On German military blunders:
  “The great victories. This unstoppable war machine as it seems, is papering over vast cracks.”
  – James Holland ([32:16])

• On Soviet offensive planning:
  “It proposes a sudden blow on the enemy, both from air and on land... it is necessary to deprive the German command of all initiative to forestall the enemy and to attack the German army when it is still in the deployment stage.”
  – James Holland ([30:38])

• On the scale of Barbarossa:
  “This is unquestionably the biggest military clash and operation ever mounted in history. But in terms of hard numbers it is as nothing to what the Red army have and it is very, very front loaded.”
  – James Holland ([43:26])

• Eye-witness moment:
  “After a short while the morning sky had turned red. Wherever one looked was on fire.”
  – From Richard von Rosen, read by Al Murray ([44:37])

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Timeline of Important Segments

| Time (MM:SS) | Topic | |------------------|------------------------------------------------------------------| | 03:31 | Al reads Matsuoka’s send-off & intro to Soviet–Japanese diplomacy | | 05:14 | “Countdown Conundrum”—East Asia’s impact on European strategy | | 08:00 | Ribbentrop, Hitler, and the tangled Axis-Japan-Soviet triangle | | 13:09–13:57 | Details on Soviet–Japanese neutrality pact negotiations | | 14:47–15:04 | Notable “my head shall be yours” exchange between diplomats | | 15:05–16:09 | Importance of the neutrality pact, Stalin’s agency | | 18:11–20:14 | German shift to ideological war and “Hunger Plan” | | 25:13–27:13 | British and Soviet intelligence efforts pre-Barbarossa | | 29:11–30:38 | Stalin’s military buildup & offensive doctrines | | 32:16–34:18 | German logistical/production weaknesses and improvisation | | 35:08–39:05 | Wehrmacht personnel and armaments analysis; Red Army’s numbers | | 40:29–41:38 | Luftwaffe attrition and supply/capacity problems | | 44:37–45:37 | Richard von Rosen’s frontline account as Barbarossa opens |

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Recommended Resources from the Episode

• Books:

  • Stalin’s War by Sean McMeekin (quoted throughout)
  • Barbarossa by David Stahel
  • Absolute War by Chris Bellamy

• Events:

  • We Have Ways Fest – 11th–13th September at Black Pit Brewery (UK)

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Final Thoughts

This episode expertly blends strategic analysis, dramatic diplomacy, and operational realities to paint an intricate portrait of the “countdown” to Operation Barbarossa. It highlights how the war that would determine the fate of the 20th century was shaped not just by Nazi ambitions but by Stalin’s calculated maneuvers and the fundamental, often-overlooked weaknesses of the German war machine. With punchy anecdotes, memorable quotes, and forensic attention to detail, Al and James set the stage for the next, explosive chapter in their Barbarossa series.

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For the next stage—the invasion itself—keep listening or join their Patreon for early access.

Transcript

[Al Murray]

Thank you for listening to we have ways of making you talk. Sign up to our Patreon to receive bonus content, live streams and our weekly newsletter with money off books and museum visits as well. Plus early access to all live show tickets. That's patreon.com wehaveways. This episode is sponsored by Ancestry. Military history is usually told through armies, campaigns, fronts and units. But that history feels different when your family name appears in the records. It's not just a division on a map, it's a person, a regiment, a rank, a service number, a line of family history. More than 5 million men served in the British Armed Forces during the First World War. For many British families, it isn't remote, it's a few generations away and often there's a paper trail. Ancestry's military records can help uncover the details of that service where relatives served their regiment and rank, medals, injuries, pension claims and next of kin. July marks the 100 110th anniversary of the Battle of the Somme. It's a reminder that behind the maps, units and casualty figures are individual records, names and families. Visit ancestry.co.uk and search First World War military records to discover your family's role in the First World War. This episode is brought to you by my favourite London Review of Books, William Here from Empire, briefly Crossing the Goal Hangar Network Borders in our journey to unpick the complexities of the past, it's clear that history is not a straight line. It's a vast, intricate and complex tapestry. To truly understand a political revolution or the fall of a dynasty, you have to build up the picture piece by piece. You need diary entries and poetry that capture the scale of emotions, the secret correspondence of a diplomat and the sharp, discerning insights of the era's great thinkers. And it's this art of the deep dive that the London Review of Books champions. They bring together the world's leading thinkers and interrogate a rich range of topics through long form essays. Try three months of the LRB completely free when you sign up today. Subscribe at LRB Me Trial that is LRB Me Trial to try three months of the London Review of Books for free. Just do it. It's the most wonderful journal in the country and you will never regret it.

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[Al Murray]

After the banquet, an extraordinary scene ensued at the train station as Matsuoka and his team boarded the Trans Siberian for the journey home in full view of the Moscow diplomatic corps. Never before had Stalin come to sea off a foreign visitor. A British journalist was therefore astonished to see the Verged lumber onto the platform in his military coat, in leather boots and overshoes and his brown visored cap, followed by Molotov. The Japanese diplomats, the Briton observed, came to life with a bang. When Stalin and Molotov made their appearance, they surrounded the Soviet leaders and began shaking their heads, slapping their backs and talking in several languages and in very raucous voices. Molotov and Stalin then began embracing the Japs, patting them on the shoulders and exchanging expressions of intimate friendship. Stalin went up to the aged and rather diminutive Japanese ambassador general, punched him on the shoulder rather hard with a grin and an ah ah. Ah. So that the general, who has a bald and freckled pate and is not more than 4ft 10in height, staggered back three or four steps, which caused Matsuoka to laugh in glee. And that's an extract from Sean McMeekin's incredible book, Stalin's War A New History of the Second World War. Welcome to we have ways of making you talk with me, Al Murray and James Holland for our fourth episode of our Barbarossa series. And this episode is entitled Countdown, isn't it, Jim?

[James Holland]

And how good is it to to be reunited with our favorite Japanese diplomat, Matsuoka?

[Al Murray]

Please, please, not him again. Let's see, I can screw this up.

[James Holland]

This is a world view of of of Barbarossa, isn't it? There's, as you said at the end of the last episode, there's lots of

[Al Murray]

moving plates and we've called this episode Countdown, which means there has to be a conundrum. The Countdown conundrum And the countdown conundrum facing Joseph Stalin is what to do about his eastern border with the Japanese. And this is the, the thing is this has been a massive problem for the, for the Russian Empire. You know, the Tsar before him came thoroughly unstuck fighting the Japanese. They've been enemies for the last 40 years since Japan came into the sort of modern sphere. They've had nothing but trouble with frontier disputes and naval engagements and all this sort of stuff. And obviously the Soviets have their plans, their ambitions, particularly in Europe, and the Japanese have their ambitions in the eastern sphere in what they regard as their sphere of, the sphere of influence. So it's in both government's interests, Jim, to sort this out, isn't it?

[James Holland]

Well, it absolutely is. And of course the problems facing Japan are exactly the same ones that are facing Germany. That they haven't got enough of everything and they want to expand. They've got a growing population, they haven't got enough food and they haven't got natural resources themselves. So I'm get it from elsewhere. And, and they've also got themselves in a pickle by going into China, not finishing the job. So now they've got to think of the alternative. I mean, the similarities with the conundrum facing the Japanese and conundrum facing Hitler are really obvious, I think. But, but it is now in the interest of the Japanese to solve one of the problems which is the threat from the Soviet Union. And it is absolutely in the interest as to Harlan, to equally solve a problem of the Japanese. So, you know, they're coming at it from the right place, both parties, I would say.

[Al Murray]

However, Yasuote Matsuoka is involved. So who knows how this will turn out?

[James Holland]

So who knows how this is going to, how this is going to end up? You know, there's a warning there, people.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, Exactly. So on the 24th of March, Matsuoka is received by Stalin at the Kremlin.

[James Holland]

And just to remind everyone he is the Japanese Foreign Minister. And, and to say he's a loose cannon is, is, is an understatement. He's a womanizing, hard drinking, gung ho Japanese prince who. And, and you know how he stays in post quite as long as he does is anyone's guess.

[Al Murray]

One of the great mysteries. Yeah, but he is there to bury the hatchet with the Soviets and Stalin wants to do the same, you know, because he wants to focus on the west. He doesn't want trouble on his eastern flank. Although ironically, at the same time they're both reaching out to one another because The Germans are encouraging them to do so.

[James Holland]

Yes. This is a great paradox of the whole thing.

[Al Murray]

It's incredible, isn't it? Ribbentrop has urged the Japanese to get involved the previous autumn when he's trying to persuade the Soviets to join the Tripartite Pact.

[James Holland]

And of course he wants to do this because he wants to draw American influence into the sphere of the Japanese.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And, and get Japan and America fighting one another so that America can't then fight Germany. That's a, that's a long term thinking. But I mean, you know, all these guys that, you know, their grand strategy is kind of, it's kind of flawed, isn't it? To put it mildly.

[Al Murray]

Well, ever so slightly, yeah. Matsuoka says to Stalin, Japan's war in China is really a war against Anglo Saxon capitalism and individualism. Against England and America.

[James Holland]

Yeah, of course it is.

[Al Murray]

I don't know. If you say so, mate. You know, he says, Japan, we're like you, we're collectively minded, we're virtually communist. Right. Like you are.

[James Holland]

Stalin, of course, is absolutely loving this. He's absolutely loving it. And the two men agree to work together, don't they, to annihilate the Anglo Saxon ideology and to build a new world order. Lovely. It's also simple. Matsuoka then travels from Moscow to Berlin where Hitler is far less impressed, you know, because although they're allies, Hitler mistrusts Matsuoka and the Japanese generally. Yeah. Frankly, with very good reason.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And Hitler does not reveal any plans for Barbarossa. Matsuoka is delighted by the German encouragement for Japan to attack Singapore and to go to war against Britain and usa. You know, the Germans are going, go on, go on, you must do it. You know you want to. God, Jake's rightfully yours. You know you want to go, go. Hey, how about you attack Pearl Harbor? And he's actually loving it. Hitler is very guarded about plans and so on. Ribbentrop is a bit gobby and it's far too indiscreet. It makes absolutely clear that relations with the Soviet Union are extremely rocky. So Matsuoka leaves Berlin believing Russia and Germany are soon going to be at war. So, you know, his, his antennae are absolutely on it. Then he goes back to Moscow. So he goes, Moscow, Berlin, Moscow. And in just two weeks since he's last been there, Soviet intelligence has picked up all sorts of clues about what's afoot, which I think is really, really interesting. So, I mean, this is quite the catalog, isn't it? So 26th of March, Soviet counterintelligence intercepted a telegram from the Turkish embassy in Moscow to Ankara passing on a report that Germany is preparing to strike the USSR. What? The next day 27th of March barriers NKVD. So Beria is the head of the NKVD. He has spies in Berlin. Of course he does. Reports to Stalin that Goering's air ministry have begun intensive preparations for a bombing campaign against the Soviet Union in case of war. You know, it's all starting to add up the same day is the Allied backed coup in Belgrade Stalin supports. Then on the 4th of April, Schulenberg who is the ambassador in or Schulenberg who's the ambassador for Germany in Moscow confronts Molotov about the rumored Soviet pact with Belgrade. And then on the 6th of April, Stalin does sign the pact with the Yugoslav army and has been backing it all along. So he's effectively backing a coup which is working against his ally. Yeah. So you know, it's not like Hitler hasn't got provocation, I would say.

[Al Murray]

Well, yeah, well, yes. Although I mean, you know, this is, I think this is Hitler, Hitler complaining about other people's shabby behavior is perhaps it's a little rich for my diet. I don't know about you and double

[James Holland]

Sanders has never been an issue with the.

[Al Murray]

Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Although he's been right about a couple of things in this series. Let's, let's still remember that, you know, but Matsoka, Matsoka reads all this because, because I think what's interesting about Matsoka, he's got good intuition. He's got, you know, it's just he's also a hopeless twat. Right. Sorry, he's, he twigs that this means obviously Japan can probably. There's some wriggle room here with the Soviet Union and Stalin actually is every bit as accommodating as, as Matsoka hopes. You know, that they agree that the common enemy is the USA and Britain and that Chiang Kai Shek is an agent of Anglo Saxon capitalism. I mean I, you know, of course he is, everyone knows that. And you know, and actually you could say American support for Chiang Kai Shek's Chinese nationalism. You could be borne out by that description if, if that's, if that's your ideological refraction of things. Yeah, that's right. He's not having to make anything up there, is he? Matsuoka?

[James Holland]

Yeah. And a lot of the sticking points between Japan and Japan and, and the Soviet Union has been those islands north of Japan, east of the Soviet border. You know, who, who owns what and what Matsuoka suggests is Is that they, let's just park the island disputes for a moment. Let's just not worry about it and instead focus on a neutrality pact. And Stalin says For more than 30 years Japan and Russia have been regarded each other as enemies. We have fought wars, we made peace but never became friends. Perhaps if we sign a neutrality pact it will show the way from enmity to friendship. Perhaps.

[Al Murray]

But they, I mean it's very interesting isn't it because they do then negotiate with the eyelids. But they, but they, but they also say but we're not going to sweat, we're not going to sweat it over that. We're not going to let that get in the way. No. Which is, which is kind of interesting. So on April 13th, 3 o' clock in the afternoon, the Soviet Japanese neutrality pact is signed in the Kremlin and they both agree to whatsat to respect each other's territorial.

[Sponsor/Advertiser Voice]

What?

[Al Murray]

They both, they agree to respect each other's territorial integrity. So this means the Soviets will recognize Japan's conquest of Manchuria.

[James Holland]

Yeah, it's fine, don't worry about it. We're cool with Manchuria.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah. You be you and you do you and the Japanese are going to recognize the Soviet position in Mongolia and Finland.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

The Baltics, Poland and Romania because as we've been saying in previous episodes, the Soviets have been getting busy and this is a five year pact. What's quite interesting about that is that is just stack full of Japanese concessions, isn't it? Right. The Soviets are accommodating Manchuria. Right. And the Japanese are accommodating that great long shopping list of stuff which the Germans don't like.

[James Holland]

Even though Japan and Germany are allies,

[Al Murray]

there's never been an allegiance like it. Jim. And everyone's saying it. This now means that the Japanese, they know they're safe from Manchuria to strike into Southeast Asia. This is okay now Mat Suka has

[James Holland]

this just, just so mad. So Matsuoka says to Stalin the treaty has been made.

[Al Murray]

I do not lie. If I lie, my head shall be yours. If you lie, I will come for your head.

[James Holland]

My head is important to my country. So is yours to your country. Let's take care to keep both our heads on our shoulders.

[Al Murray]

Christ.

[James Holland]

Not to be confused with Goering, obviously

[Al Murray]

this basically green lights what Japan has in mind in the Pacific and all the entanglements and all the to and fro they've had with the Americans that we detailed in recent episodes. Basically the thing that sets the Japanese free is the Soviet Japanese Pact in terms of the Second War within the Second World War. War B, if you want. This is as important as the Soviet German Pact of August 1939, isn't it?

[James Holland]

But I would wager that the vast majority of people listening to this podcast have never even heard of it.

[Al Murray]

Those that have, of course, give yourself a biscuit. It's the Soviet Union. Two pacts the Soviet Union make that are the absolutely central to the unfolding of events in the Second World War. And very often we like to look at it as German agency and Japanese agency in, in those things. Who's actually calling the shots. And it could argue it's Stalin, isn't it?

[James Holland]

I think Stalin is dictating the pace on all of this. Yeah, completely.

[Sponsor/Advertiser Voice]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

I think he's hustling Hitler. There is no question, as we shall discuss in the, in the next part of this series when Bob Ross actually gets underway, there's no question that Stalin overplays, has overplayed his hand in a note, very smart way. But, but it is absolutely the case that they're. That. That they are kind of making the pace on all of this.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, let's go back to. To the other main player in this, the other person making decisions, and that's. That's Hitler, of course. And what's going on in Germany now that, now that Barbarossa is basically going to happen now it's a done. It's a done deal in terms of the decision.

[James Holland]

And you can see the economic benefits flowing into Germany the moment they cross the borders with. From the breadbasket of Europe and all the rest of it in Ukraine, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah, but, but this is the point where it takes a subtle shift because they said what they realize what they're consumed by is a need to annihilate the Red army in those western areas. And what, what does that mean? That means destroying the Red Army's military totally within 500km pretty much of the current border. So how do you do that? How do you defeat your enemy so emphatically that the rest of the country is just completely stuffed? And you do that by complete annihilation. And complete annihilation means extreme violence. And so suddenly the ideology of the whole thing, which underpinned Mein Kampf, which underpinned much of Hitler's thinking in the 1920s and on into the 1930s, is suddenly coming to the fore. Because what had originally been conceived in terms of the wider war against Britain, these priorities, as it's getting closer to launch date and it's suddenly starting to sort of clarify in his mind what they've got to do. And the challenge, a shift comes with how they're going to conduct this. I think that's, that's the point.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. And he'd written about this in Mein Kampf that there will be an ultimate clash with Bolshevism one day. You know, he says, conquering new Lebensraum in the east and ruthlessly Germanizing it, whatever that means. On the 30th of March at the Fuhrer conference, Hitler speaks about the war, this being a clash of two ideologies for which the Wehrmacht would have to undertake a war of extermination. They're not shying away from what their intentions are. And Barbarossa is going to be a clear break from all previous German campaigns, which is interesting. Interesting seeing as that they're, they're resting on all previous German campaigns as the reason they're going to be able to do this, but they're going to nevertheless go up a gear. It's going to be a totaler Krieg as defined by Erich Ludendorff in his book of the same name in 1935.

[James Holland]

Yeah, he was a previous, you know, Ludendorff, obviously the First World War general.

[Al Murray]

And he's obviously saying, well, where we went wrong last time around is we didn't do, didn't do totalikri. The annihilation of the enemy army and of the enemy nation.

[James Holland]

It's not just the armed forces, it's the nation.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, it's the whole thing. It's the whole kitten caboodle. So it's not just a military vehicle. It's the complete crushing of the Soviet state of communism itself. Judeo Bolshevism. Of course. Got to remember that there's the racist element in this, in this too. And in part of the preparation for this is General Georg Thomas. And we've been finding him Spreadsheet George. You know, he's got the numbers to upset everyone. Let's not pretend who he is. He draws up the hunger plan. And the idea of the hunger plan is to kill 20 to 30 million Soviet citizens.

[James Holland]

Well, so that's going to happen through starvation because they're going to take all their food, which then means that lots of Soviet citizens are going to be, are going to starve. And that's terribly unfortunate and very sad. But you know, this is a dog eat dog world and you know, we've got to go through this terrible trauma to safeguard future generations and create the Lebensraum that's going to safeguard the Aryan ideal across the hegemony in, in Europe and Asia.

[Al Murray]

And given the holodomor, that's how things are done in this part of their world, is their thinking, isn't it? That's how you get things done around here. You starve people out.

[James Holland]

Yeah. The holodomor being, being for those who don't know, is the starvation that, that happens to the Ukrainians in the 1930s.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. But it's, it's quite clear though that the Wehrmacht commanders at this stage, they're still completely enthralled to Hitler. As a result, they don't confront the military implications of this new approach, this radicalized. You know, I mean, it's amazing the idea that Hitler's radicalized himself even further. But he has, hasn't he? I mean, it's that one of, one

[James Holland]

of the major consequences of this is that there are obviously a lot of people in the Baltic States, a lot of people in Ukraine who have nationalistic yearnings, who would probably welcome the German invaders and would fight on their side against Russia and obviously could have massively helped the German cause, but they've been discounted. And that's because of, you know, in Hitler's insistence on absolute German domination means squandering what clearly could be a massive advantage. Yeah, potentially a war winning advantage.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the thing is, is the army commanders, the Wehrmacht commanders, they go along with this. They can't see that. They can't see there's a flaw here. They're all at it. Von Brauchitsch rouses his officers. He tells them that the upcoming campaign is a struggle between two different races for crying troops to act with all necessary harshness.

[James Holland]

And then there's General Oberst General, Colonel General Hoepner who's commanding the 4th Panzer Group and he says to his subordinates, he goes, the objective of this battle must be the destruction of present day Russia and it must therefore be conducted with unprecedented severity. Every military action must be guided in planning and execution by an iron will to exterminate the enemy mercilessly and totally. In particular, no adherents of the present Russian Bolshevik system are to be spared. I mean, this is thermal people. This is not ss.

[Al Murray]

I mean, I think what's really interesting about this is, is, you know, there's a great big paper trail. This is all out in the open. No one can, no one can claim they, they weren't expecting any of this because there's the Barbarossa directive of 13 May 1941, which says all civilians who attacked Germany. Right. And this means any small act of any kind of resistance were to be executed. Also expressly clears German troops from prosecution for all offenses against the Soviet population.

[James Holland]

So dangerous doing that. So dangerous doing that.

[Al Murray]

When you've also got the idea that, you know, Jews are the enemy of the Third Reich and of the German folk, that being a Jew in effect is an act of resistance, isn't it? Because you're, you're an enemy.

[James Holland]

Jews in, in the Soviet Union are called Partisans. It is on the last day of April that Hitler settles on 22 June for the launch of Barbarossa. Initially, of course, it was going to be May, wasn't it? Yes, that's right, 15th of May. But obviously the Balkans campaign in Yugoslavia and Greece and the invasion of Crete has put pay to that. So 22nd of June it is. And that's now immovable. I mean, the die has most definitely been cast. So should we take a break and then.

[Al Murray]

Yes, absolutely.

[James Holland]

Really get into the countdown.

[Al Murray]

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[James Holland]

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[Al Murray]

Welcome back to we have ways of Making youg Talk With Me, Al Murray and James Holland, episode four of our Barbarossa series titled Countdown. We've looked at the Countdown conundrum. Now, have to get into the intelligence picture here a bit and just briefly touch on this. On 19 April, Churchill shares genuine intelligence on German troop movements in Eastern Europe, which has been gleaned from Baltrup. You know, Bletchley park have found this stuff out. And of course, the other thing to remember about Bletchley park is it's not just Churchill telling Stalin this. They've got two people, the Soviets, at least two in Bletchley park, who are also transmitting this stuff. So on receiving this intelligence, right, it's not just coming for Churchill, who would tell the Soviets this anyway, wouldn't they? He would do that. So, yeah, in the Soviet paranoid mindset, Churchill would say, you're about to be attacked, so join us. But they're actual people, you know, John Cairncross has also passed this on to the Soviets and it's not having the required effect. Right. The British tell them as soon as Yugoslavia is defeated, five Panzer divisions are going to be transferred from Romania to Poland. But now why would that be? What are they for?

[James Holland]

And so it comes to pass, by the way.

[Al Murray]

Exactly. And that's exactly what happens. And of course, the Germans do do very well in the Balkans. They zip through Yugoslavia, then on into Greece. Athens falls very quickly on the 27th of April. And again, if your thing is hype about German military effectiveness, no one believes that hype more than the Germans. Is that the thing? You know, other people are dusting themselves down and trying to learn lessons from it. That's what the British are trying to do. That's what the Soviets have done by looking at Blitzkrieg. Well, the Germans are doing great. See, we're still brilliant. We're the absolute. We're top dog, aren't we? Rather than going, well, maybe the Greeks are crap and the British are disorganized at this point in the war and all this sort of stuff. And four divisions are then moved from Greece to the central Eastern front in the last week of April. And okw, the Oberkommander Wehrmacht, you know that basically the people in charge, they suspend all civilian rail travel in central Eastern Europe in early May. There's something cooking, there's something brewing. You don't need Ultra to tell you that either.

[James Holland]

No.

[Al Murray]

Another 12 divisions arrive at the front on 14 May, another 21 by 5 June. And at the start of this series we had Richard von Rosen's unit moving up and they were part of that move. In the late spring, early summer, the

[James Holland]

Luftwaffe are super busy, you know, the overflights of the Luftwaffe. There's 80 violating Soviet airspace between 27th of March and the 18th of April. I mean, it's not even a month.

[Al Murray]

God, that's a lot, isn't it? Yeah.

[James Holland]

So that's multiple per day. By the end of April, it seems clear that Germans are preparing to strike, but no one's sure where or when. So, you know, that all sounds very pre d day to me.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's coming, but we don't know where.

[Sponsor/Advertiser Voice]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And you know, by early May 1941, there are huge numbers of warnings pouring into Moscow, you know, from spies in Berlin. Barrier learns on 22nd of May, 25th June is the attack date. Soviet agents in Bucharest said it's going to come between the 15th and 20th of June. Molotov complains to Schulenberg about the overflights, but gets a kind of polite brush off. And Schulenberg, for those who've forgotten, is the ambassador. German ambassador. Yeah. So it's generally reported, hasn't it, ever since, that Stalin doesn't believe the invasion's going to happen. Yeah, I mean, I'm not sure about that, you know, and having said that, I mean, Stalin arranges for German officials to see the tank parks and airfields, etc. You know, and the implication is that surely Hitler wouldn't be foolish enough to take on an enemy with such a massive advantages of manpower and armor. That's what he's doing. He's not saying, I don't believe you. He's trying to kind of put them off. I think Stalin also learned from intelligence that the Germans hadn't ordered winter clothing or antifreeze lubricants. So Stalin interprets that as a lack of seriousness from the Germans rather than overconfidence. Yeah, he sees it as caution about not attacking in 1941, rather than what it really is, which is German hubris, of course.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then he does a bit of basic, like, willy waving, doesn't he? There's a massive mayday parade in Moscow. Colossal. Real show of Red army might. And he also says in the Kremlin that the era of the peace policy is at an end.

[James Holland]

Yes.

[Al Murray]

And he, he's going to shift the Soviet policy from defense to offense.

[James Holland]

So, I mean, he's, he's not holding back, is he?

[Al Murray]

No. You know, you could argue While he seems to be being blase about German preparation, you could argue that what he's trying to do is conceal his own. Yeah. Against Germany, there is offensive doctrine being handed down. Marshal Timoshenko, who's the Soviet defense commissar, and General Georgy Zhukov, who will become one of the great figures of the Red army later in the war, the chief of Soviet General Staff. In May 1941, they update the Red Army's mobilization plan with offensive doctrine, not defensive.

[James Holland]

Yeah. And that is for the invasion in the southwest to come out of Ukraine, basically, and to push into Romania and Bulgaria and all those places. They want. They want to kind of sweep on down through the southwest of southern Eastern Europe. That's the plan, and it's completed on the 15th of May, and it proposes a sudden blow on the enemy, both from air and on land. And the plan, advises Stalin, it is necessary to deprive the German command of all initiative to forestall the enemy and to attack the German army when it is still in the deployment stage and has no time to organize the distribution of forces at the front. Pretty unequivocal, isn't it?

[Al Murray]

I mean. Yeah, but that also, I mean, was. You were saying a moment ago, you know, everyone's been looking at the way the Germans won in France. And that's how you. That's how you defeat the Germans. You attack them while it's still in the deployment stage.

[James Holland]

You attack them, turn them back, and

[Al Murray]

you don't let them get to the point where they can assemble their armored fist and strike. That's what the French should have done in 1940. And so, yeah, their thinking is entirely. Is entirely rational in that regard. That's how you defeat the German war machine. And anyway, on the subject of which, I mean, they're. They're running on. They're running on empty, the Germans, aren't they?

[James Holland]

Pretty much, yeah. I mean, this is why they're in this predicament in the first place, because they've literally been in like kids in a sweet shop and swept everything out. I mean, you know, France, for example, on the 1st of January, 1940. So before the blitzkrieg has comfortably the largest number of motorized vehicles in Europe.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

By the end of December 1940, it has 92% less than it began the year with. So in other words, it's got 8% of the vehicles that it started 1940 with by the end of 1940. And that's because the Germans have stolen them all.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And they've done this with coal supplies and food Supplies and everything, other supplies, and they've just cleaned them out. And so the problem is is that then those countries can't function anymore because the workers can't get to work. They've taken away their cars and they haven't got any coal and they're under, underfed, so their performance goes down. And the Germans just haven't fought this through because they've just, they've just swept in and cleared everything out. And this is the problem, the great victories. This unstoppable war machine as it seems, is papering over vast cracks.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

You know, the rationing in Germany is, is absolutely prohibitive.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

You know, Germans are starving, let alone their kind of prisoners and. Yeah, all the rest of it. So.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. And in the meantime, the Soviets and the, and the British have doubled armament production in 1940. America's tripled it. Those of you who listen to our visionary series will know that America, sort of industrial elastic is absolutely incredible. But Germany has stagnated and achieved no growth in 1940, in spite of, you know, suddenly having French, French factories and all this sort of stuff. And the German aircraft industry now has 425 different types of aircraft in production. Now that's good for plastic model makers now because they get to make lots of different aircraft, different types and keeps you entertained, doesn't it, boys and girls. But, but the truth is it's a complete ball ache if you're the Luftwaffe or if you're producing spare parts. And there's 150 different types of truck and motorcycle. Despite Fun Shell's best efforts to streamline it.

[James Holland]

Well, you may remember in the first episode, I think it was, that we said that what Shell was trying to do is create 23 different types of vehicles, reduce it to 23, it's still got 150 in the spring of 1941.

[Al Murray]

But this means because of the sort of, you know, continent wide plunder and larceny and this discoordinated industrial policy, industrial strategy, there will be 2000 different vehicles in the order of battle for the campaign, the forthcoming campaign.

[James Holland]

All of which, all of which means that again, just to reiterate the point, with different distributor caps, with different gaskets, with different this, with different that, you know, so different fuel consumption, different rates of fuel consumption. Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's just an absolute shocker.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

So the 18th Panzer Division, for example, has 96 different types of personnel carrier, 111 types of trucks and 37 different types of motorcycle. How is that going to work? There's no Max Beaverbrook we're only gonna have five aircraft types, is it?

[Al Murray]

No, no, but I mean, flip this round. This is why the Germans are so good at organizing on the hoof, because they got to.

[James Holland]

Yeah, that's true.

[Al Murray]

They've got no choice.

[James Holland]

They got to.

[Al Murray]

They have no choice. Von Schell, you know, he's done his crunch the numbers. He's only got enough trucks to keep each motorized division equipped with 70 tons of supplies a day. But, but the likelihood is they going to need 300 tons a day. And of course, we've, we've talked about this before, that, you know, the German army relies on its spearhead to do the sort of, to do the popping open of the, of the, of the enemy line is the idea. And for Barbarossa, it's no different. In France, that's all right because it's a short campaign and France is little compared to the Soviet Union. But 10% of the army is basically being expected to do 80% of the fighting. So the four Panzer groups are the key to the entire operation. But there's actually. There's 31 divisions that those panzer groups are made up of.

[James Holland]

Well, 31. Yes, yes, 31 motorized divisions, which just 17 are Panzer divisions.

[Al Murray]

They're actually panzer divisions. So immediately it's the point of the spear, but the point's getting smaller and smaller and smaller, which means it needs to be really sharp because you're spreading it. But is it. Because the tanks they really need for the job are more the modern types. The Panzer Threes, the Stugs and the Panzer Fours. But the number of tanks in all four Panzer groups and the four Panzer groups is 3505. And I mean, read this. And we.

[James Holland]

20,000 less than the Red army for a start.

[Al Murray]

Yes. And pushing only just nudging ahead of the number of T34s that will be produced that year in 1941. Yeah.

[James Holland]

And the percentages of the tanks that they have available. And there are seven available if you include the Stug, which is strictly speaking the assault gun, because it does, you know, it's on a Panzer 3 chassis with a single gun, fixed gun. So Panzer II, which is tiny and basically a pop. It has a pop gun that makes up 28% of that Panzer force. Panzer IIIs make up 21%. That's, you know, a decent number. Model 38s, which are pretty useless. And 19% Panzer IV, only 13% Panzer 1. Still 8% Panzer 1 is literally nothing. It's like machine gun in it, 6 foot high. The Stug, 7%. And the Model 35. 4%. And there's also huge discrepancies in these panzer groups. So Panzer Group 1, which is the only panzer group for Army Group south, has an average of just 154 panzers tanks in each of its four panzer divisions. It's just not enough. But Panzer Group 3 of Army Group center averages 253 panzers per division. And the 7th Panzer Division, which is Rommel's old one from the battle for France, has 299 Panzers. So there's no even split on this, which speaks of a kind of a lack of uniformity or uniformity of structure, which is, I would argue, problematic. And the infantry divisions aren't in great shape either. So 73 divisions are deemed to be below par. So 8 divisions are in somewhat, somewhat lesser offensive strength, 19 divisions are reduced offensive strength, 22 divisions are little offensive strength and mobility, and 24 divisions suitable for rear area duties only. I mean, you start chipping away at that, don't he? A bit.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, we, we ought to run the Top of the Pops music under that. Those numbers. Da da da da da. At Panzer 1 at 8%.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Sponsor/Advertiser Voice]

I mean,

[James Holland]

it's coming in at little offensive strength and mobility. 22 divisions, exactly.

[Al Murray]

And the thing is, though, and you know, I think everyone contains the spoiler here is, nevertheless, they are going to have an extraordinary effect to start with, aren't they? Which begs the question, what would the Germans be capable of if they've actually been properly equipped and kitted out and able to go? Because operationally, you know, tactically, you know, they can be very effective.

[James Holland]

But it's. It's a lack of contingency, though, isn't it? That's the problem. This is, this is the really big alarm bells. It means you've got very little opportunity for the rotation of troops, which means Inevitably, they're that 10% doing 80% of the work. That is so going to be a problem. So this is this whopping overemphasis on the spearheads doing all the work. That is the issue. And the Red army, just a reminder, have ready in the western areas alone, have 32,900 artillery pieces and mortars over 50 millimeter and 76,500 guns and mortars below 50 mm.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

While the Germans can muster 7,146 artillery pieces in total. Barbarossa, so less than a fourth.

[Al Murray]

I mean, the other thing is, and we'll see this actually in what we're going to talk about, Next. Is that the German style of war? Yes, it's super effective, but it's costly. It isn't a sort of casualty free thing. Blitzkrieg. No, no, you carry on despite your losses is how blitzkrieg works.

[James Holland]

Yeah, yeah.

[Al Murray]

And the Luftwaffe is a really great example of this because they've been rushing around like the fire brigade, putting out problems everywhere they go. They've been trying to mutate into a strategic bombing force as well as from their actual tactical role.

[James Holland]

They've been in action constantly since the

[Al Murray]

start of the war, relentlessly. And actually, if there's one thing that's emblematic of the Nazi war machine, it's their tactical war effort. You know, the Stuka howling in and all that sort of thing. But they haven't got any four engine bombers. So the thing they've tried to turn themselves into a strategic bombing force, they can't do. And the Battle of Britain has been a catastrophe for them, you know, because not just in terms of airframes, but they've chewed through all their experienced people, burned a load of people out. The lesson they've learned is not to enter the defended airspace if they could possibly help it. And the Blitz has similarly. Although the Blitz has been this sort of extraordinary drama and unprecedented kind of war in England and the whole of the UK and even in Ireland, where they end up at the wrong place, it's been really costly for the Luftwaffe.

[James Holland]

Yep.

[Al Murray]

And it means they start Barbarossa with fewer aircraft than they began Falgelb on 10 May in 1940, which is the

[James Holland]

invasion of Low Countries in France. Yeah.

[Al Murray]

Really bears thinking about.

[James Holland]

And the icing on the. On the kind of, you know, disastrous cake is that they lose 250 of the much needed transports in Crete, along with 50% of their Felschmja force, which are best infantry in the Wehrmacht at

[Al Murray]

that stage of the war.

[James Holland]

Yeah. And you know, get this. Between June 1940 to June 1941, the Luftwaffe loses 3,700 aircraft, as well as the same number of air crew killed in action, 3000 missing in action and 1500 wounded in action. And this is at a time before the war has gone on to kind of, you know, has reached gigantic scale. So this is where the conflict is actually still on quite a small level in terms of what is to come.

[Al Murray]

And because of all the problems with trucks and transport and all that sort of stuff, their supply system is insufficient that they can't actually resupply. And they can go about 500 kilometers, so 300 miles. And after that they run out of puff. They reach what's called the culmination point.

[James Holland]

Yes. And the culmination point for those who don't understand it, this is, this is military terminology and what it means is the culmination is a point where you can no longer sustain your frontline action to the degree to which you want to and the speed of which you want to because your lines of supply are so great that you can't keep up. Yeah, basically. So another word for it is you've run out of steam, the wheels are falling off. Literally a metaphorically.

[Sponsor/Advertiser Voice]

Yeah, yeah.

[Al Murray]

But throughout June it's, you know, the Germans are doing everything to let the Soviets know they're coming. Right. The Luftwaffe are flying over day.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

There's intelligence pouring into Moscow from, from all, from all sources. But it's also clear that the Red army is, you know, girding its loins for something.

[James Holland]

Yeah, very much so, yeah.

[Al Murray]

800,000 reservists. I mean, it's no small number to be sniffed at, is it? Soviet 16th army and the 5th Mechanized Corps are loaded onto railways and go west from the eastern frontier.

[James Holland]

From the eastern frontier?

[Al Murray]

Yeah, from the eastern frontier. So they know that Japanese assurances, the Japanese Soviet pact is in effect there and they could free people up. And they're due to arrive on the 10th to the 17th of July. So the following month they've also planned the 19th, the 20th, the 21st, the 22nd, the 24th and 28th armies.

[James Holland]

Six armies.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. Concentrated the west between the 1st 10th of July. And the Soviets also trying to keep this secret. So everyone's only for purposes secrecy. The troops were to move only at night. So something's afoot either side of the frontier. Yeah.

[James Holland]

The Soviet are up, the Soviets are prime to. Red army is going to strike into the southwest. I mean, you know, there is some debate about this, but I think that's what's going to happen. I think they're planning a preemptive strike into the southwest. They've moved all their aircraft up. They've, they're, you know, it's going to be a drive into Bulgaria and Romania. That's what they're going to do.

[Al Murray]

Just not yet.

[James Holland]

Well, July probably end of July, beginning of August. So, you know, the Germans are kind of sort of month ahead, six weeks ahead. On the eve of battle though, the Germans have mustered 152 divisions, 3 million men, 3,300 Panzers, 2,250 warplanes, 7,146 mobile guns and artillery. It sounds enormous. That's because it is enormous and it is unquestionably the biggest military clash and operation ever mounted in history. But in terms of hard numbers it is as nothing to what the Red army have and it is very, very front loaded. Now we began this series with Richard von Rosen who is a gift writer in. He's a gunner, isn't he, in a Panzer Mark iii. And I think it's only apt that we should finish with him on the eve of Barbarossa. Well, on Barbarossa itself, 22 June 1941, which is when this great clash finally happened. So do you want to read Richard von Rosen?

[Al Murray]

Why not? 22nd of June 1941. I had had a light dose by OC 100 hours on account of the tension and excitement. Nobody was still asleep. We got up and talked. Then at precisely 03:15 hours the first rounds were fired. Our artillery batteries opened a crazy heavy fire from all sides. On the Russian positions close by us was a 10.5cm battery. After a short while the morning sky had turned red. Wherever one looked was on fire. The Soviets made no reply. After half an hour the firing ebbed somewhat, got stronger again and then almost ceased altogether. We could hear the rat a tet tete of machine gun fire in the distance. Our infantry crossed the Bug and established a bridgehead. Towards 0400 hours the entire fighting force of the company was drawn up to here as a commanding the Fuhrer's order of the day to the German army of the East.

[James Holland]

The hour of the crucial test has

[Al Murray]

now arrived for you too. Upon you lies the responsibility of saving the culture of Europe from Bolshevism.

[James Holland]

Ah, there you go. And we will be back with this in a couple of weeks. Yes, Barbara Oster itself and then we'll be back with Barbarossa itself. And how is this all going to play out?

[Al Murray]

Well, who knows, Jim? Who knows? And the only way to find out sooner and to know exactly when we're going to tell you is to become a Patreon. To go to. We have ways of making you talks Patreon become a member and join other people who when they hear mention of a Type 38 tank under German use, immediately squeak out the words that's a Czech tank, isn't it? Like I did earlier on. Anyway, we must go to works so thanks for joining us. And there's all sorts of stuff on there. There's audio books, there's, there's ticket offers, all that sort of stuff. Merch, We've, we, I've really enjoyed this gym. This has been absolutely fascinating and I think Sean McMeeken's book Stalin's War, which we quoted from at the start of this episode, is one. If people want to get more stuck into this and in fact, then the. The rest of the campaign and the strategic picture and then the extraordinary effect of Lend Lease on the Soviet Union, that's a book worth looking at, isn't it?

[James Holland]

And the other absolutely brilliant book on this is Barbarossa by David Starr, the Australian who's coming over to we have Ways Fest in September. And the other one I just mentioned is Absolute War by Chris Bellamy, which is extremely good as well.

[Al Murray]

We have Ways to Fest, of course, is the 11th, 13th, 7th September at Black Pit Brewery. A whole weekend of people who shout out, it's from the Skoda works, isn't it? Like, like we just demonstrated there. Go to we havewaysfest.co.uk for your tickets. A whole weekend of wonderful war waffle. We will see you very soon. Thanks for listening, everybody. Cheerio, cheerio.