Peleliu: Death Trap Island (Part 1)

Summary

WW2 Pod: "Peleliu: Death Trap Island (Part 1)" – Detailed Summary

Episode Title: Peleliu: Death Trap Island (Part 1)
Release Date: November 28, 2024
Hosts: Al Murray, James Holland, John McManus
Podcast Description: We Have Ways of Making You Talk delves deep into World War II history, blending expert knowledge with humor to explore key battles, forgotten front lines, and untold stories that shaped the modern world.

Introduction to Peleliu

The episode opens with Al Murray reuniting with co-hosts James Holland and John McManus to tackle the complex and harrowing Battle of Peleliu, an epic confrontation during World War II between U.S. Marine Corps forces and the Imperial Japanese Army.

Al Murray (02:29): "What we thought we'd try and get our heads around, and this is going to take us at least two episodes, I think, is the Battle of Peleliu."

Strategic Importance of Peleliu

James Holland provides a comprehensive overview of Peleliu's geographical significance, situated in the Palau Islands chain, serving as a strategic stepping stone towards the Philippines. The island's primary value lay in its airfields, which were crucial for supporting General MacArthur's operations aimed at retaking the Philippines.

James Holland (03:13): "So operations in the Palaws only make sense if indeed you're going back to the Philippines, which the American Joint Chiefs have decided they will by late summer 1944."

Command Structure and Strategic Decisions

The discussion shifts to the strategic disagreements among U.S. naval and army commanders regarding the invasion of Peleliu. Admiral William Halsey, known for his aggressive tactics, believed that capturing Peleliu was unnecessary, advocating instead to focus on Leyte. However, operational decisions were mired in inter-service rivalries and communication breakdowns.

James Holland (05:52): "Admiral Halsey... comes away convinced that the Japanese defenses on Mindanao are really hollow and the place isn't really worth hitting."

Al Murray (10:14): "Does that then feed into how the battle proceeds is the sort of ghastliness of it and the tracted nature of it, Is that a product of that, or is it just...?"

Execution of the Battle

Upon going ahead with the invasion, the U.S. deployed the 1st Marine Division under General William Rupertus, who controversially refused to incorporate the 81st Infantry Division for additional support. This decision proved disastrous as the Marines faced fierce resistance from well-entrenched Japanese forces utilizing the island’s rugged terrain to their advantage.

James Holland (14:45): "General Rupertus decides that he doesn't want the army there under any circumstances, no matter the situation."

Al Murray (16:02): "It is like you said, Jim, it's myopic. And the reason this matters is because of what happens to the Marines themselves."

Challenges Faced by U.S. Forces

The Marines encountered unexpected difficulties, including inadequately supplied water and the formidable natural defenses of Peleliu. The coral terrain created a labyrinth of caves and ridges, making conventional assaults exceedingly deadly.

James Holland (20:35): "It's perfect. And also, the Americans don't know much about it."

Al Murray (32:07): "What are they armed with? Do they have any artillery or is it sort of mainly mortars and kind of flat guns and stuff?"

James Holland (32:12): "They do have artillery. It's not heavy artillery. They're always outclassed in terms of artillery."

Japanese Defensive Tactics

Colonel Nakagawa led approximately 10,000 Japanese troops in a staunch defense, leveraging the island’s natural fortifications. Their strategy focused on using the terrain as a force multiplier, embedding themselves within caves and utilizing underground bunkers to inflict maximum casualties on the advancing Marines.

James Holland (18:15): "So on Palu, they have about 10 to 11,000 mostly Imperial Japanese army troops... They've really heavily fortified this island."

Al Murray (20:34): "It's coral and it's a sort of honeycomb of ridges and, you know, crevasses and stuff. So you can, if you're committed to sort of defending and giving up..."

Human Costs and Leadership Failures

The episode highlights the tragic loss of life and the psychological toll on U.S. forces. General Rupertus's disdain for army reinforcements and his refusal to adapt his strategy led to significant casualties, exemplifying a critical failure in military leadership.

James Holland (24:23): "So you've got a kind of incremental fight in the Jungles and also some caves that you see there. It's no picnic."

Al Murray (25:36): "Shouldn't we just bypass all of this? Should we just bypass the Palau Islands full stop?"

Turning Point and Intervention

By mid-September, the situation had deteriorated to the point where General Holland had to intervene personally. Recognizing the untenable losses and the ineffective leadership, Holland authorized the deployment of the 81st Infantry Division to reinforce the beleaguered Marines, marking a pivotal moment in the battle.

James Holland (39:16): "Geiger is... growing quite skeptical... he's sending in the reinforcements."

Al Murray (41:34): "Is there anything in the fact that the beach landing goes pretty well? So they think, well, we've got this all under control."

Conclusion and Tease for Part 2

As the battle rages on with mounting casualties and strategic stalemates, the hosts hint at continuing the deep dive into the Battle of Peleliu in the forthcoming episode. They emphasize the complexities and the profound human cost of the conflict, setting the stage for further exploration of the battle's progression and its ultimate consequences.

Al Murray (43:11): "It's probably just begun. We will, we hope you join us for part two of me. We're on another one of these, another one of these battles where we're a bit of a downer."

Notable Quotes

• James Holland (03:44): "It's not a big place. It's... absolutely tiny."
• James Holland (10:14): "It's myopic. And the reason this matters is because of what happens to the Marines themselves."
• James Holland (24:23): "He ends up, you know, crying on his bunk, being comforted by a staff officer. He tells the guy, you know, this thing's about to get me."
• Al Murray (41:56): "The problem is then you get embroiled, don't you? And then you're stuck in it."

Final Thoughts

"Peleliu: Death Trap Island (Part 1)" offers a grim and detailed examination of one of World War II's most brutal and controversial battles. Through insightful analysis and candid discussions, Al Murray and James Holland shed light on the strategic missteps and heroic yet tragic experiences of those who fought on Peleliu, setting the stage for a compelling continuation in the next episode.

Transcript

[Al Murray]

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[James Holland]

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[John McManus]

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[Al Murray]

Welcome to we have ways of making you talk USA Second World War podcast with the American Tilt with me, Al Murray, James Holland and John McManus. John, I haven't seen you in a while. It's been a big event in between. Last time we saw you, last time we spoke, isn't there?

[James Holland]

Yeah, I don't know what events that is. Is that like a hay ride somewhere or something? Or. I don't know. But Al, I have missed you. I've missed you terribly and Jim, too, today.

[Al Murray]

What we thought we'd try and get our heads around, and this is going to take us at least two episodes, I think is the Battle of Peleliu. I mean, one of the. One of the sort of epic encounters of the Second World War for the U.S. marine Corps, isn't it? It's a sort of fabled event, isn't it?

[James Holland]

And the U.S. army.

[Al Murray]

And the U.S. army, but this is one of the ones where the Marine Corps have kind of. They've kind of Elbowed their way forward into story a little, haven't they? Haven't they, John?

[James Holland]

Yep. And then have sort of captured our posterity, the memory of posterity. Of course, they do a lot of heavy lifting at Palu. Absolutely.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. No, make no mistake. And this is the 15th of September 27th of November, 1944. Before we go any further, where is Peleliu?

[James Holland]

Yeah, so it's in the Palaw island chain, which is, if you can imagine, like south of the Philippines, northwest of New Guinea. It's a kind of stepping stone on the way to the Philippines. So operations in the Palaws only make sense if indeed you're going back to the Philippines, which the. The American Joint Chiefs have decided they will by late summer 1944. So that's where this whole concept comes from. The idea that you're going to need supporting airfields, MacArthur's operations, the Philippines, and that you need to protect that flank, I guess.

[Al Murray]

And how big is Peleliu?

[James Holland]

Oh, not big. It's like a. One of those lobster claw islands. That's what, eight, ten miles in length. I mean, it's tiny, isn't it?

[Unknown Speaker]

It's absolutely tiny.

[James Holland]

It's not a. Not a big place. It's. You know, there are actually bigger islands in the Palaws, like Koror, you know, that there, that had bigger garrisons. But this one is really, really defensible because of ca. The Americans want it is the usual reason. There's an airfield, I mean, an airfield that geography places in. In a spot that is very, very important to subsequent operations because of the, the range of aircraft operating from there and whatever else. So it's, it's like a lot of these out of the way places, including one, you know, had seen an epic battle just a few months earlier that, that we don't remember as well. Bick. It's really very, very similar to that, you know, in terms of the caves and also just the, the airfield and most everything else just being completely, totally worthless.

[Al Murray]

Right.

[James Holland]

I mean, it really is. It's just coral bramble, you know.

[Al Murray]

Right, right. So this is one of those. I mean, godforsaken. Is, Is that the right. Is that a strong enough term?

[James Holland]

Oh, yeah. God, forsaken is a perfect term. Right. It's, it's, it's the kind of place where no one from these places, you know, the US or elsewhere, ever would have gone, except in the context of these operations. And, you know, so, you know, Peleliu, again, as I mentioned, only makes sense as this supporting stepping stone. And especially if we're going to invade Mindanao. I mean, so initially we tend to forget that. That because of the way the operation of the Philippines unfold from Leyte upward, we tend to forget that the initial concept was to invade in Mindanao, which is the second largest island in the Philippines and a sort of in the southern part of the archipelago. So the thinking was that we simply had to have Peleliu in order to protect the operations at Minanao and.

[Unknown Speaker]

Right.

[James Holland]

You know, eventually, of course, the Americans are going to discard the idea of invading at Mindanao initially in favor of Leyte and then moving on to Luzon. And Mindanao will be kind of a tertiary operation in the spring of 45.

[Unknown Speaker]

But that's a question, isn't there, John?

[James Holland]

About.

[Unknown Speaker]

About. Shouldn't we just bypass all of this? Should we just bypass the Palau Islands full stop?

[James Holland]

Yeah, there is.

[Unknown Speaker]

I mean, isn't it Halsey who suggests that, says we just don't need it?

[James Holland]

Yeah, exactly. This is really, I think, an interesting moment for Halsey. I don't think he's quite that well.

[Unknown Speaker]

Known, Bill Halsey, by the way. He's one of the legends of the naval admirals of the. Of the Pacific. He's Bull Halsey, isn't he? He's one of the great characters of the.

[James Holland]

He's got quite a Persona of the Pacific War. Yeah, he's got quite a Persona, bloodthirsty Persona, wanting to kill Japanese. He's been very aggressive, of course, in the Guadalcanal campaign. He's emerged as this great hero in the minds of the American public. It's a bit of a cult of personality in a way, in my view, and I think many other historians. He's a bit overrated in the sense of some of the biggest mistakes you could ever imagine in the battle of Leyte and then dealing with a typhoon later and so on and so forth. But he's the commander of the Third Fleet, and he's not always known for his forbearance and his great insights into a situation. But really, this is a time when I think Halsey really comes off quite well because he's leading these airstrikes. He and of course, Vice Admiral Mark Mitcher, who is really kind of the leading American naval aviation commander at this stage. They've hit fields on Mindanao. They've hit fields in the Palaws, and they come away convinced that the Japanese, it's. It, you know, the. The defenses on Mindanao are really hollow and the place isn't really worth hitting. And they think. They think Halsey believes very strongly by, by. By about September 13, 1213, that time frame. He believes very strongly that Peleliu is not worth the price of taking it. And in that sense, I think he's proven 100% correct. So he ends up sending a message up the chain to, to his boss, nimitz, to, to MacArthur, with whom he gets on very well, and even to Admiral King Ernest King, the Chief of Naval Operations, basically the head of the Navy, saying, hey, let's scotch Operation Stalemate, which is the, the ominously named Invasion of. Why name it that, by the way? But that's. The invasion of Palu is named Operation Stalemate. And he says, we, let's. Let's scrub that and, and move on, think about other things. Let's move on to Leyte. I mean, that's, which is something of what we do. So who's suggesting that? And Mitcher agrees. Mitcher totally agrees because of what his aviators have reported back. And, and so it ends up in this weird vortex because. And, and we tend to forget this, too. The invasion of Moratai, which is a sort of capstone of the, the whole New guinea campaign, is about to happen on September 15th as well. Okay, so that's an all. That's, that's an army invasion of, of moratai. And so MacArthur is actually aboard ship and out of communication with radio silence. So he's off the board in the sense, in terms of being a decision maker. So really, it falls into Nimitz's lap. And also the Joint Chiefs who are meeting in Quebec, you know, they're the ones who have to kind of sort this out. But I've always thought, too, the decision is a little bit of a casualty of our Joint command. Neither Nimitz nor MacArthur truly fully controls this operation. Both have a hand in it, and both are deferential to the other. It's designed to aid MacArthur's operations, of course, but it also has a bearing on what Nimitz is doing in the Marianas and beyond because of the air support he may get from Peleliu and elsewhere in the Palaws, so, and then maybe Mindanao, if we're invading there, too. So it ends up basically, in effect, it becomes Nimitz's call whether to send this thing forward. And, and so he, he deliberates in a very Nimitzian way for several hours, but in a very non Nimitzian way. He decides to go ahead with this.

[Unknown Speaker]

And, and how much does Makov have involved? How much is his involvement in this?

[James Holland]

His involvement is almost Nil at that decision point stage, because he's aboard ship and he's not a player.

[Al Murray]

He's not taking any calls, basically, he's.

[James Holland]

Not taking any calls, and that's the way it's designed, because it's supposed to be radio silence because his people are about to invade at Moratai. Dick Sutherland, his universally hated chief of staff, you know, is in communication because he's not aboard ship. And so it kind of falls on him, too, and he kind of kicks upstairs to Nimitz, which, of course, makes some sense, but. So there'll be a little bit of resent over, over that among MacArthur and Sutherland and all this business, too, but, but really, it's Nimitz's call, honestly. But there's this.

[Al Murray]

There's this kind of lack of ownership, although if they both own it, they neither of them own it, as it were. Does that then feed into how the battle proceeds is the sort of the ghastliness of it and the tracted nature of it, Is that a product of that, or is it. Or is it just. Them's the brakes when you're trying to take somewhere this horrendous?

[James Holland]

I think it's a little more of the latter. And as the operation unfolds, it becomes a little bit more in the Nimitz camp in terms of who's controlling it. MacArthur is going to be heavily involved.

[Unknown Speaker]

Elsewhere, but also, I mean, on Peleliu, they achieve their prime objective, taking the airfield, which is the crucial thing, because you can have as many Japanese on your line on the island, but if you. The key thing is the airfield, you know, if you're on the air, if you're on the island, you've got control of you. The Americans have got control of the airfield. You have as many Japanese hiding in caves as you like. It doesn't matter. They just starve them out. So, yeah, from that point of view, they do achieve. They achieve the, the main objective in pretty quick order. I mean, they do.

[James Holland]

Within a day or so.

[Unknown Speaker]

Within a day or so. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's the hiding in the honeycomb of tunnels in the mountain that's the problem.

[James Holland]

The ridges that are brooding over the airfield could become a problem. You know, Japanese artillery or whatever else can hit the airfield. It's a very.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, but no Japanese is going to be able to use it. That's the point.

[James Holland]

Oh, yeah, there's no question. Yeah. And, you know, and you see the same dynamic. This is a part of the operation we tend to forget too. It's also an operation to take a nearby island called Angar. And you see the same dynamic there too. We're going to have everything in place to build an airfield there. And then there's another part of it, terrain challenged part of it we'll call it, that we decide we're going to have to take. And you know, this ends up as a horrible thing. So the concept is basically you got two divisions that are part of Roy Geiger's corps and Geiger's a Marine two star, really, really good commander. So he's got the, the 1st Marine Division under William Rupertis under his command and then he's got the Army's 81st Infantry Division under a general named Paul Miller.

[Unknown Speaker]

So the Marines are interesting one though, isn't he? I mean.

[James Holland]

Oh yeah, we'll get into him. Y he, his division is going to land at Pelu on September 15 to lead operation Stalemate. And they're going to, interestingly, they're going to land the whole division in one day. You don't always see that sometimes in these operations there's only enough shipping to send in maybe two thirds of your division initially or whatever. But they're going to send all the first Marine division in and then they're going to develop the situation the best they can. And within a day or so they're supposed to let Geiger know if they need the 81st Infantry Division to reinforce them if the fighting is tough enough on Peleliu. If they don't, then the 81st is supposed to divert to Angar and, and go and invade and take that island and, and then build an airfield that they're going to use for bombers for B24s, they hope. So Rupertus decides that he doesn't want the army there under any circumstances, no matter the situation. So here again we have, we basically have Holland Smith Jr. You know, on our hands here repaired us. Okay. To his credit, if I'm, I'm trying to be as fair as possible to him, he's performed pretty well as the kind of second guy at Guadalcanal earlier in, in his career composed the Rifleman's Creed we still use today. He's really a fine Marine on, on many levels, but he's maybe he's also.

[Unknown Speaker]

A man tainted with personal tragedy.

[James Holland]

Yeah, he's, he's lost most of his family to scarlet fever when he was station in China. And so you know that's, that's going to leave a mark on anybody. So I think he's really a pretty fine man on some levels, but he's, he's out of his depth as a division commander here. He's also had a situation happen during the training for Pelu in which he broke his ankle. And he doesn't disclose that to Geiger. So he's very deceptive. That limits his mobility. It affects him physically. And he probably has a heart condition too, that he doesn't know about at the time. But he is infected with this kind of parochial anti army. We're marines and we're the supermen and we don't need any help from these clowns in the army kind of thing. And, and it's just such a tragic thing for what happens to his division on Peleliu. So even though he's in the middle of a hellacious fight from the beginning on September 15th, there's no way he's going to accept any help from the army. So they just, he just doesn't communicate. And so, so the army gives it another day.

[Al Murray]

He's not taking any calls either.

[James Holland]

He's not taking any calls. Like, you know, we're just gonna do our thing here and, and 80 first ships for all we care about kind of thing. And so, I mean, the soldiers aboard ship are seeing marine bodies floating in the water. So, you know, some of them have a sense of what's really happening on Peleliu. But, you know, when Miller doesn't get the word, he's got to go into Angar. And so he does that on September 17th with two of his regiments. And so I think that's a really important element of the Peleliu story that I think sometimes gets lost, is that it's really supposed to be a two division op. And if it had been, I don't know, I'm not saying everything would have been hunky dory, but I think you're probably gonna have a lot of lives saved there among the Marines, especially if you've got the army in there initially with you. You're gonna present the Japanese with too many targets.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, it was just too much for them to deal with.

[Unknown Speaker]

It's incredibly myopic, isn't it? I mean, and, and, and partisan and tribal and in a time and a place where there is no place for it.

[James Holland]

I mean, there's no place for it and it's so sad. And. Yeah. So I've really taken repaired us to task because I. He's the only commander I know of in, in modern military history who actively doesn't want reinforcements I've never really heard of that.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And it is like you said, Jim, it's myopic. And the reason this matters is because of what happens to the. The Marines themselves. You know, the 1st Marine Regiment is basically sent against what we call the. The Uma Brogall armor. Brogall, however you say it, this. This brooding network of ridges and caves and, you know, like.

[Unknown Speaker]

And it's all coral, isn't it?

[James Holland]

Coral? And it's. Oh, my God, it's awful. And it's. It's kind of looking over the airfield. They get the airfield on the 16th and some pretty heavy fighting. Gene Sledge is famously a part of that and has written about it so beautifully. So, you know, you already see just the incredible valor of this. Of the 1st Marine Division. And then the 1st Marine Regiment, which I would argue is. Is one of the finest units of light infantry on the planet at that point, is basically thrown against this. This coral wall of. Of the Umar Brogal, in frontal attacks by its legendary commander, Chesty Puller, who I also think is a bit out of his depth here at this point, too, because there's no nuance to it. It's just throw them in the frontal attacks and see what happens. And so this. This. This wonderful regiment basically dies there in part because of that and because they're not getting help from the army that could be right there helping you rather than muddling around on Angar against the better part of the Japanese battalion. And even that is a heavy fight, by the way. So it's, you know, the 81st is doing really pretty well there in this. This bramble of a jungle. And then. But they're going to choose to. To fight these marginalized Japanese under a guy named Major Goto. You know, they're going to be doing that for several days when they really could have been right in there alongside the 1st Marines, you know, at the UMA Brogall and the 5th Marines, who are also cleaning up another part of Paleo. That's what Sledge was part of. I. I just think it's going to be much better if you've got at least the 321st in play, and that's one of the regiments in the 81st. But. But it just doesn't proceed that way. So instead, the 1st Marine Division on its own for several days.

[Al Murray]

And. And what is the Japanese presence on Peleli?

[James Holland]

So on Palu, they have about 10 to 11,000 mostly Imperial Japanese army troops from one of their finer regiments. They're under a colonel named Nakagawa, who is just really outstanding and understands how he's going to use the terrain. Most of these guys understand there's a one way trip for them. They're going to fight to the death to, to degrade the Americans in the hope that they'll lose the will to continue the war all the way. And so Nakagawa's people have really heavily fortified this island. So his concept is, yes, he's defending at the water line. You know, he wants to degrade the marines as they come ashore. But really the, the core of his defenses, he's using the terrain as the force multiplier, those caves. So there are several hundred caves sprinkled throughout the Umaborogal and elsewhere on Peleliu that are going to be really very, very difficult. So he is, that's really his concept. He has executed it. He's going to execute it very well. But there's also by happenstance a Lt. Gen. Inoue who's on the island too on the day of the invasion. So you have a kind of a weird dynamic in which Nakagawa is technically in charge, but here's this three star who's part of the larger Japanese command structure in the Palaws, who happens to be there and is certainly going to affect things as well. So by now I think the more intelligent senior officers among the Japanese have realized that the Americans tend to control the air in the sea, which means they're going to get ashore in any amphibious invasion. So the game really should be to defend inland and to degrade them the best you can. And so we've seen a little bit of that at Bick, where the 41st Division deals with terrible cave defenses and the 24th too. And now we're going to see it at Pelelu and of course subsequently, obviously, famously at Iwo Jima, Leyte, Luzon, Okinawa, so on and so forth. So it's a little. So as the war moves north a little bit, it becomes less about jungle warfare and a little bit more about cave warfare. And Palu really shows us that. And Angar right next door too, to some extent.

[Al Murray]

And, and it's coral and it's a sort of honeycomb of, of ridges and, you know, crevasses and stuff. So you can, if you're, if you're committed to sort of defending and giving up, giving up trying to defend the air, giving up, trying to, you know, just drawing people in and trying to cause casualties. It's an ideal place for this, right?

[James Holland]

It really is.

[Al Murray]

Couldn't be more perfectly suited.

[James Holland]

It's perfect. And Also, the Americans don't know much about it. They've bombarded Peleliu. Admiral Jesse Oldendorf, who really is, I think, really the leading expert on naval gunfire support by this stage. So this guy knows what he's doing. He feels he's run out of targets. During the pre invasion bombardment, the vegetation is stripped bare and it's very hard to get a sense of what's in there in these rocks and the ridges. And they really don't know that much about the caves because caves being caves, they're concealed. Right. So. So Oldendorf calls off some of the last supporting fire. And I've always thought this is a classic example of the difference in perspective between the Navy and the ground troops. Puller, Chesapeake Puller really has a sense that this is a big mistake. And you know, when he's embarking to go ashore on September 15, he and his guys, one of his naval colleagues says, well, we'll see you back here for dinner. In other words, this is going to be a walk. We run out of targets and pullers like, yeah, right, dude, you know, do you realize what this war is? Because he understands it from the ground level. And so from a naval perspective, they have to think about, well, how many shells do we have, how much can we load and how much can our guns fire before we have to service them and all that. So it's like target by target by target. And of course they don't want their ships hanging around. Of course, we always know that from the ground perspective, we want as much as we can get that because we know it's always, almost always going to be harder than anyone anticipates. And I think this is a classic example. And so of course when we get ashore, we find that there's plenty of targets where they're just concealed and there's only so much the Navy can do about it.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. And, and of course the Japanese know that. Know the place, know the terrain, know the, know the lay of the land. Although all those advantages the defender has and of course not having to take. They don't have to take the initiative. They've taken that. The initiative is with the, you know, is the problem for the attacker, isn't it?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. And they also know that anyone attacking is not going to be able to dig into coral.

[James Holland]

Yeah. All you could do is stack it around you. I mean, and then it's so dangerous anyway. Exactly. So initially, like the soil around the airfield, because it's close to the beach, you could dig in some like sledge Digs in his mortar pit and whatever. As you start to really advance, especially up the Umabrog, there is nowhere to dig in at all. And that adds to the casualty effect. And you can imagine like the, the coral rocks flying around that, that of course, adds to it. And then obviously on top of it, too, it's hot and we have water problems. Famously, of course, the Marines have not brought adequate water stocks ashore because the, the, the drums carrying the water haven't been adequately cleaned, in part because the, the details didn't know what they were doing this for. And many of these, these drums had carried oil. So, you know, you're drinking water that's basically half oil. And I mean, it's, it's just. And it's 100, whatever degrees, and it's just, just so awful. In The Meanwhile, the 81st is over there thrashing around on Angar and fighting this parallel battle. Angar is like right next door, just two, three miles away. So they're over there doing some fighting in a way that's pointless compared to how they could be helping at Peleliu. And that's really the tragedy, this, because Reparatus is stonewalling, even though Giger is starting to put pressure on him. Hey, do you need 80 first? Do you need. And Reparatus is resisting that any way he possibly can. He is. The famous quote that he has before the invasion is, the battle should be over in three days, perhaps two. He tells his Marines. Imagine if you heard that as one of his marines. And now we're into four. Birthday or whatever, and we're in the middle.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, yeah. And you're not going very far.

[James Holland]

Yeah. And he's got a broken angle, so he can't really get around. He's a little bit feverish. He is. He ends up, you know, crying on his bunk, being comforted by a staff officer. And he tells the guy, you know, this thing's about to get me. Because he's just, he's just devastated as to what's happening. His, his marines are taking terrible casualties. Puller has not recovered from a leg wound. We all know how valorous he was, and multiple decorated and all this. And, and so, so. But here you see polar strength become a weakness because, you know, he's like, oh, you know, I've always been in tough situations. And, and I can overcome it. And my marines are amazing. And I'll just send them forward and they'll take care of this for me. Well, I don't care if you send Superman himself forward on the a lot of these defenses, the Omer Brugal, it's not happening. Give you an example. Captain Everett Pope's company goes up there and basically fights this cutoff battle. And you know, most of these marine companies, as you guys know, go into these operations over strength at about 200 some odd guys. By the end of this, he's down to I think a dozen and a dozen and a half. I mean, whatever it is, he gets the Medal of Honor. You're basically destroying these fine rifle companies up there for no gain.

[Unknown Speaker]

Should we take a quick break here and then when we come back, I think it'd be good to actually go through the specific dates of when things are happening and what's happening, when and where people are and all this kind of stuff.

[James Holland]

I think we need one after that.

[Al Murray]

We'll be back in a tick. See you shortly.

[John McManus]

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[James Holland]

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But anyone can get the same Premium.

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[Al Murray]

Welcome back to Way of Ways Making Talk USA. These are very peculiar places to fight, aren't they? Because they're pure battlefields, aren't they? You're not fighting your way around a town or around A village. They're just places to fight, aren't they?

[Unknown Speaker]

Well, yes. And as if to prove that point, do you remember when we talked to Steve Ballinger who was ex Royal Engineers, mine clearance guy, he spent 10 years on Peleliu clearing the mines. It cleared 80,000 individuals, pieces of ordinance.

[James Holland]

And it's still ongoing. Exactly. Tim Gray and The World War II foundation just did another film about it. They do dozens of these incredible films and, and I was the historical consultant on it. And it was very poignant because one of the people they interviewed in the film was the descendant of one of the Japanese soldiers who fought and died there. And so she's hoped to, to find some remnants of him all these years later. It's very difficult. And, and, and he, he interviews. I think Ballinger dealt with the unexploded ordinance. I mean, who knows what else that, it's just, you really get a sense of how this place just becomes this chock full deadly battle area and.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, well, let's, can we just sort of rewind a little bit, John, and go back. So, so the, the landing Takes place on the 15th of September, Hull Division ashore on that first day. And where are they landing? Are they landing either side of it? Because it, because it's like a sort of long, looks like a long slug really. The airstrip runs sort of broadly north, south at the southern half of the. So where are they landing? Either side of that bottom point or is it just on one side? I mean, one side of the other.

[James Holland]

And all continuously from, you know, north to south. The entire division is landed, right? Yeah. It lands at the same time on September 15th. So the whole division coming ashore and encountering really fierce resistance that first day. So it's the 16th, later in the 16th that they're going to have more or less control of the airfield by then, courtesy mostly of the 5th Marine Regiment, but not, not entirely. There's also a nearby island.

[Unknown Speaker]

There's some Japanese tanks on there, some Japanese tanks.

[James Holland]

There are, there's a Japanese tank attack that happens more or less in that time frame. They've got their usual light tanks. This is from their standpoint, this is the way they can counterattack. But you know, those guys are just in, those tanks are just dead meat. I mean those are light tanks. You're going to have some U.S. armor ashore. You know, you're going to have shamans on the them. There are, there's some Shermans and of course you've got bazookas and, and you know, some level of artillery and whatever Else mortars. So that, that attack is traumatic but it, it's broken up fairly easily by the 1st Marine Division. So that really ends any, you know, vain Japanese hope of imperiling the beachhead, I guess we would say. So by necessity they're going to hunker down in these positions that they've already prepared. Mostly in caves though, not entirely, but they've got some very advantageous positions in high ground, in jungles with pedestal guns and, and this kind of stuff too that you can imagine how they'll savage landing craft for resupply. The beachhead is always in danger because it's such a tight end battle area and, and whether planes are going to be secure on the airfield. I mean, who knows?

[Al Murray]

The beachhead sort of 2,3000 yards wide, isn't it?

[James Holland]

Yeah, about, you know, so it's pretty, pretty, pretty crowded for a whole division.

[Al Murray]

Because this is, what's, this is what's striking when you look at the map of it is that that basically the beach head is sort of the whole of the lower spans, the whole of the lower side of the island as it drops down. And so they, and yet that it takes them all this time to clear it. You know that the fighting then goes on for weeks because it's just this.

[James Holland]

Layered defense that Nakagawa has masterminded. He's really a fine soul soldier. He's amazing. He's, he is, he's told his wife by the way, that he knows it's a one way trip and he's not coming back. He has young children, I think, I think two children, but I'm not sure about that. But yeah. So from their standpoint, your Imperial Japanese army guys are basically infantry men who are very well trained and, and then you have the, the other laborers and whatnot who are added to the maw, who, who may or may not know all that much or want to fight all that much. So when you hear about people capturing, captured at Peleliu, it's almost always the latter category. There's a, there's a few dozen who are captured or whatever. It's really quite interesting. The interrogation reports that, that remain in the records today. But most of your actual combat infantrymen there, you know, are fighting the death and they're in those caves. There are some naval guys too. You know, there's always the divide between the army and the navy there. That makes our inner service rivalry look like child's play obviously. But you know, so yeah, I mean it's within the first two, three days you've Got the objective, though.

[Al Murray]

What are they armed with? Do they have any artillery or is it sort of mainly mortars and kind of flat guns and stuff?

[James Holland]

Yeah, I mean, they do have artillery. It's not heavy artillery. They're always outclassed in terms of artillery. But yes, they have anti aircraft guns. They've got, you know, anti tank pieces. They have light and medium artillery, you know, so. And some of these guns are still there today, you know, the rusted remains of that. So obviously they got enough to. To cause problems. And of course, they have a lot of ammo that they have stored their. Over the course of the months leading up to this. And it's the same old pattern you see in the Pacific War. I mean, the place has been fortified for years, has been fortified for months, and there's that lag time. You know, we're. They're usually about six months ahead of us in terms of fortifying an objective that we're going to try to take. And so this is another example. And there's. There's a little nearby island called, and it's hard to pronounce, like Nisibis or Nagisibus or. I don't even know. But the 5th Marine Regiment gets embroiled in that, in trying to take that little place and has little bunkers and whatnot that they're going to be taking log bunkers. So when you read Gene Sledge's account, that's where he is. And when you read Robert Leckie's account, He's with the 1st Marine Regiment or 1st Marines. So he's right there in the Uma Brogall fighting under Chesty Puller. And in that, complete, total mess.

[Unknown Speaker]

Right.

[James Holland]

He gets wounded, of course, but.

[Unknown Speaker]

But. So he's on Uma Brogle, but. But. So which bit is. Is Eugene Sledge on?

[James Holland]

He's in K Company, 5th Marine Regiment. So he knees Abyss or Geniza Bis or however you say it. My apologies for butchering it. And it's this little sort of adjunct island, like right next. And so it's like just across this little isthmus of swamp or whatever. And so you've got.

[Unknown Speaker]

On the eastern side.

[James Holland]

Yeah, it is, exactly. So you've got to take that because you're just not going to be able to advance deeper into the Uma Bro Gaul and beyond without that flank covered. And so some of the most haunting parts of Sledge's memoir, I think, happened here. It's when he knows that he kills. Kills his first person. Kills a guy by shooting him with his Carbine. It's when they have a situation in a. In a night position where you have a guy who just simply is. Is completely gone emotionally and mentally and won't shut up. By his account, they had to kill him to, you know, to keep him quiet. And, and it's. It's so horrible. Yeah. So you just kind of see this thing turning into this charnel house, this complete nightmare, you know, and it's just, it's so horrifying from an historian standpoint point, to look at repertoire's performance and realize that he actively doesn't want help. And he's willing to see his Marines die and get wounded out there for his own service pride and whatever else.

[Unknown Speaker]

But do you think it is because of some sort of deep latent or deep seated trauma from his own family experience or something? Do you think that.

[James Holland]

I mean, I think it's possible. I think it's made him more dour. I think it's made him more dour. But I also think in trying to be as, you know, sympathetic to him as I can, he's physically diminished. He's not at his best. I think he's got a heart condition. I mean, he's going to die a few months later of, of a heart condition.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, March 45.

[James Holland]

And so I think maybe that's really affecting his, his judgment some. And also a broken ankle doesn't help matters either. I mean that.

[Unknown Speaker]

No, not at all.

[James Holland]

You know, so I think he's. Unfortunately, I think he's a little bit disengaged from the battle. He's not up at the front. Ordinarily he would be because he's a pretty courageous guy, but he's not in this case. So I don't think he really is in touch with what's going on. Gun. And Geiger is going to have to personally intercede. His boss repaired his boss and he'll come there and he'll meet with Puller up front and say, do you need help? And Puller's like, no, I think I can get on okay. And Dager's looking him like he's nuts. And so he basically overrules him and he says, no, we're sending in the Wild Cats. That's the nickname for the 81st.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, but the Wildcats, meanwhile, are on Angor, aren't they?

[James Holland]

Yeah. So the Wildcats, in the meantime, two.

[Unknown Speaker]

Regiments, they land on the 17th of September.

[James Holland]

Exactly, they land on the 17th. And so they're in the middle of a, of a kind of incremental fight in the, in the Jungles and also some caves that you see there. It's a really constricted battle area. The nerve shattering combat at close quarters when a grenade might be dropped directly from overhead or an unseen enemy machine gun open up at a range of a few yards was exceedingly exhausting and nerve wracking that was. That's the 81st Division historian. Climbing, crawling, hoisting oneself over coral masses under the debilitating tropic sun in the airless chasms was enervating to the strongest. So I think it's a really good description because it tells you what the fighting is like for these guys on Angar. It's no picnic. Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

Angle is about just the sort of people know. It's, it's a, it's like a. It looks like a pork chop. Yeah, it looks like a pork chop. It's about four and a half K's in length. What's that, three miles in length? Something like that?

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

A little under three miles and about a mile and a half wide. Something like that.

[Al Murray]

That's widest place, isn't it?

[James Holland]

So it's just nothing.

[Unknown Speaker]

It's got a little brown strip on it, but. But it is literally an airstrip. Nothing anymore.

[James Holland]

It will be because there's like nothing initially when we get there. Once the Wildcats start to take the ground, engineers come in with bulldozers and they start to build the airfield way out there. So they're building as the combat is, is proceeding. But that's the nature of how the combat is. It's very, the visibility is very limited. So that helps the Japanese because they could be anywhere. It really reminds me of what happens at Kwajalein and what happens at Macon. It's, you know, they, the, the we would all say, we would say as historians all these years later, well, that's not that formidable of a force you're facing there. But until you're actually there and see the terrain and know that danger could be anywhere, which is going to tend to slow you down. I think you don't quite fully grasp the, the situation. So yes, the Japanese are completely overmatched on many levels, but it's really hard to have much mobility or move with that much speed when you're talking about that kind of terrain and the, the fact that danger could be coming from anywhere.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

And their determination to fight to the last round to the last man. So It's a, it's 1338 killed, 45 captured, which is the sort of.

[James Holland]

For the Japanese.

[Unknown Speaker]

This is their first taste of combat since first World war, isn't it?

[James Holland]

That's right, exactly. And so they're an interesting group because they're older than the Marines and you know, they, they're so they're a reserve division that has been activated and mobilized into federal control and they, they've been training for a couple of years now. So these aren't some rookies or whatever. And that's the other thing about Reparatus view that looking down on them and he calls them cats and all this kind of stuff. No, these guys are very well trained soldiers seeing their first combat and, and you know, they lose 264 killed in the, in the Angar fight. So, so this isn't any walk over here. The Japanese can still leave a mark even when they're, you know, obviously outclassed here. Almost everybody by this point has dysentery.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, it's just horrendous, isn't it?

[James Holland]

It's just a nightmare to operate in these areas. So they've had a pretty big fight on Angar even before Rupertus overrules or Geiger overrules Reparatus and sends in the 81st Division. And when he does, it's going to be just one regiment and then, and then the next regiment, not the whole division initially at least.

[Al Murray]

How does Geiger come to the sites on 21st September? So four days, six days into the fighting. So what, what happens? He, he, he comes and has a look and says, well, hang on a minute. This is out of control.

[James Holland]

Exactly. Geiger is, is a really sagacious kind of commander. And he's grown quite skeptical. He's tried to be, you know, understanding and deferential, I guess, to repair it, saying, you know, okay, it's your fight, we'll let you control it. Or, you know, that the, that has a shelf life. And when we're into the sixth day here and it's the same situation, he, you know, of course, Geiger is the kind of guy who wants to go take a look for himself and he sees what he sees the condition Puller's in, the condition that his regiment is in, and he realizes, oh my gosh, I've got to take action here. Now, he's been taken to task by some historians that he should have interceded earlier. And I think that, you know, is fair. He probably should have. But, you know, Geiger was trying to be, be understanding and deferential to the commanders on the ground. And remember, he's got two fights to manage this one and Angar, because they're intimately Intertwined, honestly. And I think that's where we as historians sometimes have had a blind spot, not understanding the role of Angar in this whole thing too, and the 81st. And so Gigar is not like Reparatus. He is not an inner service chauvinist and all this. In fact, he works very well with the Army. He's been to the, I think the command of General Staff College at Leavenworth Worth. So he says, all right, you know, I don't care what you guys are saying. I'm sending in the reinforcements. Two of the regiments go in. And so this is September 21st, 22nd, 23rd. That time frame when you're going to see the 81st come into play alongside the Marines. By then, of course, the 1st Marine Regiment has essentially been destroyed. It's in such terrible shape that it has to be withdrawn even as the rest of the 1st Marine Division stays and fights. That really tells you something. It's almost traumatic just for me as an historian looking at this, that because of my incredibly high regard for these guys and, and this, this unit is just such a beautiful unit on so many levels to have expended it this way. I'm sorry. It just really still gets me after all these years. It's. It's a terrible tragedy and. And it's really comes about through bad calls by these two senior officers, repaired us primarily, but Puller, with an assist from Puller, unfortunately, even though he's a legend to many Marines, I fully get that.

[Al Murray]

I mean, is there anything in. In the fact that the beach landing goes pretty well? So they think, well, we've got this all under control.

[James Holland]

I think Prepared us feels initially, especially being disengaged from the battle, that, yeah, Ali's been up against that initial crust of resistance. And once broken, he'll be on the downslope, kind of like Tarawa. I think he feels he's dealing with another Tarawa and he's not.

[Unknown Speaker]

And the problem is then you get embroiled, don't you? And then you're stuck in it. And you think, well, I can't pull back now because we've already lost all this blood, so we've got to keep going. And if we do keep going, then just one last push and we'll kind of get through this kind of great.

[Al Murray]

Big whirlpool of sunk cost, isn't it?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, exactly. And if you. If you don't get it right in the first instance, then, you know, you're forever playing catch up. You know, that's the problem.

[James Holland]

That is exactly the problem. And when he's disengaged from the battle, not at the front, he doesn't have a feel for that, does he? So he's just thinking, oh, oh, we've got to have broken them, it's got to end tomorrow, you know, because he's always been thinking about a three day operation which was the wrong mindset. And he's not, not like he's the only one who does that in the whole Pacific War. Of course it happens a decent amount. McCarthy. Arthur famously does this kind of thing too. And, but yeah, I think, I think if he'd been able to visit the front, he might have had a better sense for this. I don't know that he would have relented and gotten reinforcements. And that's the part I still can't get in my mind. Actively doesn't want reinforcements because they happen to have USA on their stenciled on their, their fatigues rather than usmc, you know, I mean, how does that make any lick of sense?

[Unknown Speaker]

So we've only got to the 21st of September and this battle goes on into November. So we've got a little way to.

[James Holland]

Go beginning on some levels.

[Al Murray]

It's probably just begun. We will, we hope you join us for part two of me. We're on another one of these, another one of these battles where we're a bit of a downer. Oh, God.

[Unknown Speaker]

Come on, guys. We're gonna do something bit more positive.

[James Holland]

It's a mini hurricane. It's a mini hurricane.

[Unknown Speaker]

Well, why don't. Yeah, it is a mini hurricane.

[Al Murray]

Don't forget, of course, we have Waze Fest 12th, 14th September next year 2025. Exactly. V for victory. Putting the fun into. Into funf. Putting the camp into campgrupper. We will hopefully see you next time. If all those adverts haven't put you off. Thanks for listening. Bye bye.

[Unknown Speaker]

Cheerio.

[James Holland]

See you.