Slaughter On The Ice

Summary

WW2 Pod: We Have Ways of Making You Talk
Episode: Slaughter On The Ice
Release Date: December 24, 2024
Hosts: Comedian Al Murray and Historian James Holland

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Introduction to the Episode

In this special seasonal episode of We Have Ways of Making You Talk, hosts Al Murray and James Holland delve into the harrowing tales of Christmas during the Second World War. Accompanied by John McManus, the trio explores the lesser-known Battle of Kellya, a brutal conflict fought on the icy terrains of the Karelian Isthmus during the Winter War between Finland and the Soviet Union.

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Setting the Scene: December 1939

Al Murray opens the discussion by setting the historical context:

"[00:43] December 21, 1939, Stalin's 60th birthday... The Winter War is up and running in Finland."

The Winter War was initiated by the Soviet Union to rectify border discrepancies with Finland following the chaos of 1917. Al humorously remarks on the Soviet motivations, drawing parallels to modern Russian geopolitical maneuvers.

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Geographical and Strategic Importance of the Karelian Isthmus

Al Murray provides a detailed description of the Battle of Kellya:

"[04:11] The Battle of Kellya... in the Karelian Isthmus, a narrow stretch of land between St. Petersburg and Finland."

The Karelian Isthmus was crucial for the Soviets as capturing it would grant direct access to Helsinki. The area, characterized by extreme cold—reaching minus 40 degrees Celsius and Fahrenheit—posed significant challenges to both sides.

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Military Tactics and Conditions

James Holland raises pertinent questions about the operational difficulties faced by soldiers:

"[12:10] James Holland: It's minus 40 degrees. How are they operating? How are they keeping the weapons operating?"

The discussions highlight the immense physical and logistical challenges:

• Weapon Maintenance: Soldiers had to prevent their rifles from freezing, often leaving them outside sleeping bags to avoid jams.
• Clothing and Mobility: Layered clothing hindered movement, making soldiers slower and less agile.
• Visibility: Persistent moonlight made movements highly visible on the snow, contributing to high casualties.

Al Murray adds practical survival techniques used by soldiers:

"[13:25] ...put newspaper in your boots to draw the moisture out of your feet... change your underwear as often as you possibly can because moisture is the enemy."

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The Battle Unfolds: December 25-27, 1939

The hosts meticulously recount the three-day battle:

1. Christmas Day ([04:50] - [10:12])

   • Soviet Assault: The Soviets launched a massive artillery barrage followed by infantry assaults across frozen Lake Suvanto.
   • Finnish Defense: Despite being outnumbered and equipped with inferior weaponry, Finnish troops utilized superior training and tactical ingenuity to repel the Soviet forces.
   • Bitter Combat: The battle involved intense hand-to-hand fighting, with Finnish soldiers leveraging their knowledge of the terrain and cold-weather combat skills.

2. Boxing Day ([10:12] - [15:00])

   • Continued Soviet Attempts: The Soviets made repeated attempts to reinforce their positions, only to be met with devastating Finnish artillery fire.
   • Finnish Counterattacks: Despite heavy losses, Finnish forces launched counterattacks to disrupt Soviet advances.

3. December 27 ([12:10] - [17:04])

   • Final Push: After seven hours of relentless fighting, the Finns managed to infiltrate and decimate the Soviet positions, effectively ending the battle.
   • Casualties: The Soviets suffered significant losses, with thousands of soldiers killed and their attempts thwarted by the resilient Finnish defense.

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Personal Accounts and Heroism

A poignant moment in the episode features a dramatic retelling by John McManus of a firsthand account from a Finnish soldier, Fresh Marilla:

"[11:30] ...'As I was in good health, I had the pleasure and honor of being the first to plunge into a trench full of knuckles... I've been able to use all the combat skills I'd acquired in peacetime school.'"

This vivid narrative underscores the brutal reality of the battle and the extraordinary bravery of those who fought.

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Discussion on Soldier Preparedness and Morale

James Holland and Al Murray engage in a discussion about the importance of preparation and morale in such extreme conditions:

"[14:12] John McManus: ...who is prepared is going to come out on top... Al Murray: ...if you're mobilized, you're motivated... you're going to be able to hang on."

They emphasize that the Finnish victory was not just a result of tactical superiority but also stemmed from high morale and unwavering determination among the troops.

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Aftermath and Legacy

Following the Battle of Kellya, the Winter War concluded with the Moscow Treaty in March 1940, resulting in significant territorial losses for Finland:

"[15:42] John McManus: And they join forces the Germans can't you to go and smash Leningrad."

Al Murray highlights Field Marshal Mannerheim's reflections:

"[16:30] 'The people of Finland have shown in two wars that a united nations smaller it may be, can develop unprecedented fighting power...'"

These remarks encapsulate the Finnish resilience and the strategic importance of maintaining internal unity in the face of overwhelming adversity.

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Conclusion

In "Slaughter On The Ice," Al Murray and James Holland shed light on a lesser-known yet pivotal battle of the Winter War, illustrating the extremes of human endurance and the complexities of warfare in harsh climates. Through detailed analysis, personal anecdotes, and insightful discussions, the episode offers a comprehensive look at the Battle of Kellya, honoring the valor of those who fought and preserving an important chapter of World War II history.

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Notable Quotes:

• Al Murray [00:02]: "We have ways of making you talk."
• Fresh Marilla [11:30]: "I've been able to use all the combat skills I'd acquired in peacetime school."
• Field Marshal Mannerheim [16:30]: "The people of Finland have shown in two wars that a united nations smaller it may be, can develop unprecedented fighting power..."

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For More Information:

• Membership Club: Access bonus content, livestreams, and ad-free listening at patreon.com/wehaveways.
• Other Goalhanger Podcasts: Visit www.goalhanger.com.

Transcript

[Al Murray]

Thank you for listening to we have ways of making you talk. Sign up to our Patreon to receive bonus content, live streams and our weekly newsletter with money off books and museum visits as well. Plus early access to all live show tickets. That's patreon.com we haveways this father's Day Give your dad the Forever Wanted Elixir by Azaro Parfums, an intoxicating fragrance where leather notes merge with the addictive red fruits. Discover the Azara Wanted collection for Father's Day at Macy's.

[Ryan Reynolds]

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[Al Murray]

Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to 15 DOL per month required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full [e-mail] she's made up her.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Mind to live pretty smart Learn to budget responsibly right from the start. She spends a little less, inputs more into savings Keeps her blood pressure low and credit score raises she's cutting debt right out of her life she tracks her cash flow on her spreadsheet at.

[Al Murray]

Night Boring money moves make kinda lame songs but they sound pretty sweet to your wallet BNC bank brilliantly boring since 1865 welcome to we have ways of making you talk USA what is that? Oh, it's. It's my little piano on my desk and I. I'm trying to play Jingle Bells but I managed to muffle anyway to we have ways USA with me, Al Murray, John McManus and James Holland. And today what we thought we'd do for seasonal reasons is is offer you some tales of tales of Christmas, Second World War. Isn't that right, gentlemen?

[James Holland]

That is correct, yes.

[Al Murray]

That may be not Tales of Christmas Cheer. Maybe they are. I mean mine. Mine definitely isn't, but that's what we're doing and to get you in the sort of seasonal mood. Isn't that right, Jim?

[John McManus]

Yes.

[Al Murray]

So who's going first? That's the question.

[James Holland]

I think you're going first, aren't you? Right. You're our leadoff hitter.

[Al Murray]

December 21, 1939 I want to do 1939 because we so rarely do the bit when we're losing Right. We. So ready. But we're losing on our own as well, John. I just want to.

[James Holland]

Right. And on our side of the Atlantic, we've got an army smaller than Romania, so there's that, too.

[Al Murray]

I mean, it's wonderful stuff. Exactly. Great time for everybody.

[John McManus]

But in the United States, people can still buy new Chevrolets and. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. So at least that's okay.

[Al Murray]

Right.

[John McManus]

So on the 20, have turkey for Christmas.

[Al Murray]

We'll start off with, on the 21st of December, 1939, Stalin's 60th birthday. So, yeah, happy birthday to the big man who at this point is not our ally. We don't really know what to do about him because as we all know, the Winter War is up and running in Finland. And I wanted to take a little look, a little glance at what's happening On Christmas Day, 1939, in the Corellian Isthmus. And it's an extraordinary story, the Battle of Kellya. I don't know if either of you know anything about this, but it's, it's, it's really, really, really interesting. Now, of course, 10 years ago, Vladimir Putin got some historians together and he said that the reason the Winter War was fought. He told them the reason the Winter War was fought was to correct errors made in the border, previous settlements.

[John McManus]

Oh, yeah, I see.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, exactly.

[John McManus]

Oh, well, then it's probably pretty reasonable then.

[Al Murray]

Exactly.

[James Holland]

No problem.

[Al Murray]

The war, the correct mistakes in determining the border with Finland after 1917, that's what Stalin was trying to do. So, you know, fair enough, I suppose, nowadays. Nowadays, that's the kind of thing the Russians are doing. So there we are, and it's all a part, this battle, the Battle of Kelja, which is a village in the Karelianisms, which is the stretch of land. It's about 100k wide at its widest, the stretch of land between St Petersbur and sort of the bulk of Finland. If you think of Finland. If you think of Scandinavia as sort of the head of the alien in Alien.

[John McManus]

Yes.

[Al Murray]

Then it's the bit that goes up to. Up to Finland from Sapirisburg is right on the edge of the systems. And.

[John McManus]

Yes, and it's where it's about which Sibelius wrote a very famous suite.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, that's right. And spoiler, this is now part of Russia where we're talking about, which I think indicates how, in fact, I mean, you can see if you're, if you're a paranoid empire, how this border being this close to one of your main. One of your cap One of your former capital city might be making your pants itch, but. So there's the Mannerheim line, which is across the isthmus, which is the key area of the Winter War. At the top of it is the city of Viipuri, which is now the Russian city of Vyborg, where the Nord stream one runs. It's a gas city, Finland's second largest city. And if they can take this, then the Soviets can get into the rest of Finland and they can get to Helsinki dead easy. So it's really, really important sector in the run up to the 25th of December and we're talking it's minus 40. This battle is being fought in very, very, very short days because we're that far North. A minus 40 is minus 40 in Celsius and Fahrenheit. I discovered today, I checked that that's a happy coincidence. So we don't have to explain it to anybody. It's just really, really fucking cold. I think it's the best way of putting it. And the state, the state things is interesting. So the Soviets have essentially modern equipment. They have, they do have some aircraft. The Finns. The Finns don't have the. This stuff. They haven't really got any tanks. They've got Vickers tanks, the little Vickers tank from in between the wars. Some of their artillery is 19th century, but they're very. The emphasis in the Finnish armies on training and tactical nous in the run the week before or the fortnight before Christmas Day. There's infantry attacks that reach their big human wave attacks of Soviet infantry that were repulsed by Finnish artillery. And then what the Soviets do is they start to just shell every day and reinforce and they bring up the Soviet 4th Rifle Division up cross Lake Suvanto, which is frozen, and attack the town of Kelja. And what they do is they do a massive artillery barrage on the Pantanami fort, which is away from Kelia, as a feint. And they get three battalions across the ice, form beachheads. Soviet artillery opens up on the rear finish positions. And so some of the Finns are confused as to what's going on because they've been shelled regularly up to this point. They don't know if this is a feint, business as usual, a proper, a proper attack. The fighting gets very, gets bitter. The Finns are able to bring troops up, they're able to reinforce, they're able to hold the Soviets off, right? But obviously they're in a permanent state of. If they pick one place to defend, they've got to strip others because they're massively outnumbered. So deciding actually how to be decisive around Kellya becomes very, very, very difficult. And the Soviets dig in and you then fought. There's a pattern that forms over the next three days where the Finns put in a really, really, really, really big counterattack, infantry counterattack, bring what artillery they can to bear and then are repulsed. And there's a sort of by the end of Christmas Day and you know we're talking, the thing is the Soviets come across the ice at night and, and attack in daylight at 8:30 in the morning because the days are so short. When we say by the end of the day we're looking at, you know, 3:00 in the afternoon anyway because the days, the days are so short and the Finns are able to hold them, hold the Soviets at the edge of Kelly, then push them back into the edge of the forest. That's by the, that's by the ice, right? And so that's Christmas Day. This is really, this is really like really, really bitter, bloody hand to hand stuff. It's an infantry battle in absolutely terrible, terrible, terrible conditions. Boxing Day they send in the Finn. The Soviets try to send reinforcements across the ice. The Finnish artillery put paid to that. Then you got two more counter attacks by the Finns that morning. As the situation starts to deteriorate they decide that early in the morning of Boxing Day they send an attack towards the Soviets but they have no fire support so they're repulsed. They do it again with, with two companies rather than a company up the first one that's repulsed again then they're ordered to just hold. The Finns are ordered to hold and stop the Soviets coming across the ice. So that's the day's fighting on Boxing Day. And because the Finns know how to fight in the bad in the, in this weather, because the Finns know the territory and also because know they got no choice but to stand and fight here. They do and they, and they hold the, hold the fourth, the Soviet fourth Division who are sending more people, trying to send more people across the ice but it's clear moonlight so they're the finish easy to see.

[John McManus]

And they're just getting cut down.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, getting cut down. So day or night doesn't really make any much, much difference if you've got moonlight.

[John McManus]

No, because also you just get so used to it and particularly on snow obviously the light is reflected off the snow.

[Al Murray]

Exactly. Blokes running about with, with kit are really, really visible and the Soviets lose something like a regiment of, you know, people in this fighting on the ice, that's several thousand. Yeah. And the Finns say the ice is littered with piles of bodies. Has just bought bodies absolutely everywhere.

[John McManus]

Oh, God.

[Al Murray]

So. So that's Christmas Day and Boxing Day. We come to the third, the third day. The Finns launch another counterattack after the Soviets have been plastered with artillery. But again, they're repulsed. And then they up there, they up their artillery support, and by the end of the day, and after seven hours of continuous fighting, the Finns get into the Soviet positions, they infiltrate them and they winkle them out. And the Soviets are gone. And it means by the morning of the 28th of December, the battle's over and they've completely cleared the area of. Of living Soviet soldiers, at least. Wow. And there's a really amazing description of as a guy called Fresh Marilla, who's a team leader. He's from Raisiala. I think I've pronounced that. Right. He's part of the Viborg Civil Guard, so the Viewuli Civil Guard. He's a good skier, he's a good shooter. He's a heavyweight wrestler. And in one of the. One of the accounts to battle, he says, as I was in good health, I had the pleasure and honor of being the first to plunge into a trench full of knuckles at the other end of it. I counted it straight in line and saw five vanyas fall. Once I got off to a good start and shot the magazine empty. There was no time left to recharge, and I had the opportunity to use the bayonet, fighting skills I had learned during my time at academy and practiced in competition. I was allowed to beat with both the butt of a rifle and a bayonet to get ahead in the grave. I got a Russian bore sight from somewhere. It was a precise weapon, and marks on the ice began to appear. I was witnessed, Torika witnessed beside me as he watched my shooting flat and dead. I'd fired about 70 rounds with the rifle when I got a bullet in my back from somewhere in a lone enemy colony from under the shoulder blade. That was the end of my hunting trip. In it, I've been able to use all the combat skills I'd acquired in peacetime school. So it's. It's slaughter out on the ice floe.

[James Holland]

It's just there's so many questions that come out of this. I mean, it's minus 40 degrees. How are they operating? How are they keeping the weapons operating? And any vehicles, the ammo, you know, I was thinking, if he's using the bayonet, I Mean, don't these guys have layers of clothes? And I would. It'd be hard to stab almost, wouldn't it?

[Al Murray]

I mean.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

How strong is he? You know, I mean, he's a heavyweight wrestler. So it's interesting because the other day I was reading there was a really. There was a really good piece in the Times about British soldiers learning to deal with the cold in Finland and doing a skills exchange thing. And it's all about. There was all this stuff about what you do with your weapon as you make sure it stays cold, because if you warm it up, ice will form and it then jam it and you. So what you do is you. You don't sleep. You sleep with it outside your sleeping bag so that you don't warm it up, because if you warm it up, it'll jam, it'll come up. And you put. You put newspaper in your boots to draw the moisture out of your feet, because otherwise. And you change them as regular as you possibly can. You change your underwear as often as you possibly can because it's moisture, water that is the absolute enemy. And the last thing you want to do is sweat. You've got to try and do everything without sweating.

[James Holland]

But if you're exerting yourself, wow, you're going to. And then if you're in the snow, how can you possibly stay dry?

[Al Murray]

So just, just the sort of. The tactical challenges of living, or the practical, Practical challenge is simply living in this environment, then fighting in it. You know, you're going to be running slowly, aren't you? You're going to be slower, you're going to be less agile because of all the layers of clothing, you know, so if you are a rifleman with a decent rifle dug in somewhere, you will be able to pick. You will be able to pick vanyas off.

[James Holland]

What do you do with your trigger finger, though? I mean, what kind of gloves do you have, if any?

[Al Murray]

I don't know.

[James Holland]

You have to have some, don't you? I mean, it's going to stick to the metal.

[Al Murray]

It's going to stick to the metal.

[James Holland]

Just like it would, you know, for an eighth Air Force gunner or something. Yeah, it's. It's that kind of environment. But on the ground, I mean, much less the wind, whatever the wind could be doing.

[John McManus]

I mean, you can completely see, can't you, that he who is prepared is going to come out on top on this or is going to have an unbelievable advantage.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then if you're mobilized, if you're prepared and mobilized, you know, you're, you're motivated rather, you're going to be able to hang on, certainly while the weather's weather is favoring the defender like this, isn't it? I mean, the outcome is that this, this Soviet attack fails, although what it does is it means the Finns have to redistribute their reserves. So again, they've, they've got that problem of robbing Peter to pay Paul, and they are short on manpower, but they have to reinforce there because they can see there's a threat. But they get 12 entertainment guns, 140 machine guns, 200 light machine guns and 1500 rifles, because that's the kind of war they're fighting, where they need, they desperately need. Kit. I mean, we've never ever talked about the Winter War on the podcast before, Jim.

[John McManus]

No, we never have. We never have.

[Al Murray]

We've never, we've never touched on it. And I think what, what will. What this result, hopefully will result in is someone popping up and going, you got that all wrong. I come on and put you straight this. You're divs. By March 1940, they signed terms. The Moscow Treaty, it's over. This place we're talking about, Kelya, is now called Potovo, and it's in the Pirozevsky district in the Leningrad Oblast. So it doesn't belong to Finland anymore. The Finns lose 25,000 soldiers killed, 22,000 square miles of finished land. That's 10% of Finland is lost, including the whole of the Karelian isthmus that we've been talking about.

[John McManus]

And they join forces the Germans can't you to go and smash Leningrad.

[James Holland]

Yeah, of course you do.

[Al Murray]

You know what the last. Jim, you know what the last notes, last sentence of my notes for this is. You can see why Mannerheim sided with the Germans when the moment came to get the Soviets out. Yeah. I'll finish with what Mannerheim says in his memoirs, Lessons of the Winter War. The one lesson above all that I wish to stamp on the consciousness of the next generation is this fractiousness in one's own ranks is more deadly than the enemy's sword. An internal discord opens the door to the outside aggressor. The people of Finland have shown in two wars that a United nations, smaller it may be, can develop unprecedented fighting power and thus withstand the most formidable ordeals that destiny brings. By closing ranks at the moment of peril, the people of Finland earned for themselves the right to continue to live their own independent lives within the family of free peoples. They did not waver in efforts. They were made of sound and sturdy stuff. If we remain faithful to ourselves, and if at all moments of destiny, we cling unanimously and unfaltering to the values which to this day have been the foundation of Finland's freedom, the faith inherited from our fathers, the love of our homeland and the determination, intrepid readiness to defend it, then the people of Finland can look to the future with the firmest of confidence. Amazing Churchillian stuff. That's why we change sides, by the way, is also what he's saying.

[John McManus]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

So there you go. So there we go. The Battle of Kelly. Christmas Day to December 27, 1939, in the Corellian Isthmus, in the Winter War.