Speer, Snipers & Submarines

Summary

WW2 Pod: We Have Ways of Making You Talk – Episode Summary: "Speer, Snipers & Submarines"

Release Date: December 5, 2024
Hosts: Al Murray (Comedian) and James Holland (Historian)

---

1. Introduction and Co-Writing "Victory 45" (02:04 – 03:57)

The episode kicks off with Al Murray and James Holland discussing their collaborative effort on the book "Victory 45." They delve into the nuances of co-authoring, highlighting the blend of their distinct perspectives.

• James Holland: “It's a very interesting experience co-writing a book.” (03:34)

They contemplate structuring the book, considering making "Unconditional Surrender" the prologue to set the stage for subsequent chapters, ensuring a smooth narrative flow.

2. Roosevelt’s Leadership and the Atlantic Charter (03:54 – 06:43)

The conversation shifts to President Franklin D. Roosevelt's strategic mindset during WWII. Al and James explore Roosevelt's determination to industrialize the American war effort, emphasizing production goals like creating 50,000 aircraft annually.

• Al Murray: “Roosevelt's thinking we need to win the war or when we get in involved, we're going to want to get this over with quickly.” (04:24)

They discuss the Atlantic Charter's principles, such as the right to self-determination and establishing a world free of want and fear, linking it to post-war initiatives like the Marshall Plan.

• James Holland: “There's a straight line between that and the Atlantic Charter.” (06:17)

3. Albert Speer and German War Production (10:50 – 11:42)

Albert Speer’s role within the Nazi regime is scrutinized, with references to Richard Evans' "Hitler's People." The hosts express disdain for Speer's attempts to deflect responsibility.

• James Holland: “He's despicable. And it is diabolical that he's allowed to get away with it.” (10:54)

They critique the misleading portrayal of German aircraft production, arguing that despite Speer’s claims, the broader context of Allied production rendered German efforts insufficient.

4. Irish Neutrality in WWII (12:48 – 14:57)

Addressing Ireland's stance during the war, James Holland references Joseph Quinn’s insights from the "History Rage" podcast, challenging the notion of complete neutrality.

• James Holland: “Ireland wasn't neutral at all actually. Ireland was, you know, doing some conscious cooperation whilst maintaining a pose of neutrality.” (12:58)

They highlight the significant number of Irish individuals who enlisted in the British Armed Forces, countering criticisms from figures like Churchill.

5. Reflections on the Podcast’s Journey (08:20 – 08:43)

Both hosts reflect on the podcast's longevity, celebrating over five years of engaging discussions on WWII history.

• James Holland: “It's been over five years since we've been doing this.” (08:29)

6. Future Directions: Biographical Episodes and Merchandise (13:25 – 15:35)

Al and James brainstorm future podcast content, considering biographical episodes on key WWII figures such as Field Marshal the Earl Alexander. They also discuss their line of WWII-inspired jackets, emphasizing authenticity and craftsmanship.

• James Holland: “If you were going back, you'd see how extraordinary some of these lives were.” (14:22)

7. Snipers in WWII: Myth vs. Reality (22:23 – 25:05)

A listener question about the prevalence and effectiveness of snipers during WWII sparks an in-depth discussion. The hosts differentiate between trained snipers equipped with scopes and ordinary riflemen taking opportunistic shots.

• Al Murray: “Let's report them as riflemen, please, from now on.” (24:16)

They argue that while iconic snipers are often glorified, the reality involved many more untrained marksmen contributing to the chaos of battle.

8. British Submarine Arm: Effectiveness and Misconceptions (29:58 – 31:23)

Addressing another listener query, Al and James evaluate the British submarine force's performance. They assert that despite perceptions, British submarines were highly effective, especially in the Mediterranean theater.

• James Holland: “British submarines in the entire North African campaign are absolutely brilliant.” (31:02)

They recommend Brent Bryant's book for an in-depth look at successful submarine commanders like Lieutenant Commander Wanklin.

9. Conclusion and Upcoming Events (31:25 – 32:14)

The episode wraps up with announcements about upcoming events, including the "We Have Ways Fest" scheduled for September 12-14 next year at Black Pit Brewery. They also promote their YouTube channel and merchandise, encouraging listeners to stay engaged.

• Al Murray: “We have Ways Fest is on sale, of course, for next year. We havewaysfest.co.uk 12th to 14th September.” (19:57)

---

Notable Quotes

• Al Murray: “Roosevelt's thinking we need to win the war or when we get in involved, we're going to want to get this over with quickly.” (04:24)

• James Holland: “It's a very interesting experience co-writing a book.” (03:34)

• James Holland: “He's despicable. And it is diabolical that he's allowed to get away with it.” (10:54)

• Al Murray: “Let's report them as riflemen, please, from now on.” (24:16)

• James Holland: “British submarines in the entire North African campaign are absolutely brilliant.” (31:02)

---

Key Takeaways

• Roosevelt’s Determination: Franklin D. Roosevelt’s strategic focus on industrializing the American war effort was pivotal in securing Allied victory.

• Albert Speer's Accountability: Despite attempts to mitigate responsibility, Albert Speer remains a controversial figure due to his role in Nazi war production.

• Irish Contributions: Ireland’s nominal neutrality belied significant contributions to the British war effort, with thousands enlisting in Allied forces.

• Snipers vs. Riflemen: The romanticized image of WWII snipers often overlooks the broader reality of many untrained riflemen who played crucial roles in combat.

• British Submarines' Success: Contrary to some beliefs, the British submarine fleet was highly effective, particularly in the Mediterranean, challenging misconceptions about its overall performance.

---

Join the Conversation:
For additional content, including bonus episodes, live streams, and early access to live show tickets, join the membership club at patreon.com/wehaveways. Explore more Goalhanger Podcasts at www.goalhanger.com.

Upcoming Event:
Don't miss the We Have Ways Fest from September 12-14 at Black Pit Brewery. Secure your tickets and join fellow WWII enthusiasts for a celebration of history and camaraderie.

---

This summary encapsulates the key discussions and insights from the "Speer, Snipers & Submarines" episode, providing a comprehensive overview for both new and returning listeners.

Transcript

[Al Murray]

Thank you for listening to we have ways of making you talk. Sign up to our Patreon to receive bonus content, live streams and our weekly newsletter with money off books and museum visits as well. Plus early access to all live show tickets. That's patreon.com we haveways.

[GMC Advertisement]

Put us in a box. Go ahead. That just gives us something to break out of because the next generation 2025 GMC terrain elevation is raising the standard of what comes standard. As far as expectations go, why meet them when you can shatter them? What we choose to challenge, we challenge completely. We are professional grade. Visit gmc.com to learn more.

[Nordstrom Advertisement]

Summer's here and Nordstrom has everything you need for your best dress season ever. From beach days and weddings to weekend getaways in your everyday wardrobe. Discover stylish options under $100 from tons of your favorite brands like Mango Skims, Princess Polly and Madewell. It's easy too, with free shipping and free returns in store order, pickup and more. Shop today in stores [e-mail] or download the Nordstrom app.

[Target Advertisement]

Summer is coming right to your door with Target Circle360. Get all the season go tos at home with same day deliver snacks for the pool party delivered sun lotion and towels for a beach day delivered pillows and lights to deck out the deck that too delivered just when you want them summer your way quick and easy. Join now and get all the summer fun delivered right to your Home with Target Circle360 Membership required Subject to terms and conditions. Applies to orders over $35.

[Al Murray]

Welcome to we have ways of making you talk the Second World War podcast with me, Al Murray and James Holland. How you doing Jim?

[James Holland]

Yeah, no, no, not bad actually. I'm just. I'm deep into victory 45.

[Al Murray]

Great.

[James Holland]

And actually, you know, we were talking about chapter one being bullet to the Head, but you wanted to put in unconditional Surrender in the background to that first.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Holland]

And so you sent me over some stuff which I've been going over and adding to a little bit. So actually I think it'd be much better to make that the prologue.

[Al Murray]

Right. Okay.

[James Holland]

And then chapter one is Bullet to the Head because otherwise the segment from the balmy lawn of Sunday, January 24, 1943 to the war torn ruins of the Reichs Chancery. It's just too much of a segue.

[Al Murray]

Okay. It's too much of a jump edit. Okay, fine.

[James Holland]

A too much of a jump in it, I think. I think. But I think. But I think, I think the prologue sets it up really Nicely. And I think, yes, I think it's pretty strong. I'm gonna send that over to you shortly.

[Al Murray]

It's very interesting, isn't it? The politics, the tangle that the Americans get themselves into trying to deal with the Vichy French. It's like, because it's. Because it's like basically a, you know, a two month window. It's another one. It's one of the, one of those things where had Dar. Darlan not been assassinated, had they had to then live with that for the rest of the war or for longer in the war, you wonder what distortions it would have, you know, where, where things would have headed in the meantime. You know what I mean?

[James Holland]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We've done this great line saying, saying it was incredibly definite without being definite at all because it was sort of spectacularly vague. But at the same time everyone knew exactly where they said. It's interesting because I've, I've been thinking, you know, obviously I was reading over what you'd written.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And it's a very interesting experience co writing a book.

[Al Murray]

It is, isn't it?

[James Holland]

You know, particularly on this, where, where it absolutely is, you know, because we've been chopping and changing. You do a chapter. I do a chapter, but this is absolutely a co written chapter.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And that's, I think is something unique and new for me, but I think it's working.

[Al Murray]

You're right, you're coping.

[James Holland]

But, but actually. But I think it's really interesting, isn't it? Because when Roosevelt has his Damascene moment in May 1940, that actually America needs to step up to the plate and really get into gear big time and create 50,000 aircraft a year, et cetera.

[Al Murray]

Et cetera, et cetera.

[James Holland]

He's obviously thinking that through the prism of what victory looks like, he's not thinking of defeat, he's thinking, right, we're going to win and we're going to win these bastards. We're going to beat these bastards by producing them and outsmarting them and being just cleverer than them. And it's going to take a little while. But he's obviously clearly already thinking about this stuff because otherwise what's the Atlantic Charter about?

[Al Murray]

Well, what he's not thinking is, is let's. What he's not thinking is how can I string this war along so that American markets do well out of it or whatever. Which is often the accusation is that it's just business to the Americans, everything's just business. One of the criticisms, certainly a post war criticism of the US and it's, you know, in military industrial complex, this thing Eisenhower himself says 20 years later, basically kind of goes, you've got to be careful because the military industrial complex in this country is the tail wagging the dog, blah, blah, blah. But Roosevelt's thinking we need to win the war or when we get in involved, we're going to want to get this over with quickly with this needs sorting, this needs fixing, and he's doing immediately. And so you're absolutely right. He has this moment of real clarity and it's an interesting thing for him to be thinking given the fact that that is a very big ball to roll up the hill politically with an.

[James Holland]

Election to fight, particularly when you've come into power in 1932 on an isolationist ticket. And that hasn't really changed in 1939.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, it is amazing. Although, I mean there is this argument, isn't there, that the Americans are militarily isolationist, but they're certainly not isol isolationist in terms of their capital. You know, it's American money in Germany. That's the part of the issue, that's.

[James Holland]

Part of the militarily isolationist.

[Al Murray]

Exactly. But, but if he's thinking beyond, you know, if he's thinking bigger picture than, than simply being a military, military isolationist, you know, he's thinking we took our money out of Germany when the crash happened or the money came gurgling out of Germany when the crash happened. And that's the thing, that's, he's thinking we need a stable European one way or another, either militarily or financially or whatever. Because I think the second American offensive, if you want, is the Marshall Plan, isn't it? You know, that after the war they pump money into Europe to make sure.

[James Holland]

But that also. But there's a straight line between that and the Atlantic Charter, isn't there? Yeah, the right to self determination, a world free of want and fear.

[Al Murray]

Well, yeah, unless you're, unless of course you're an Arab in VICHY France in 1940 to turn a 42 to 43. And the Americans thinking, oh God, there's a headache we don't need to deal with. We'll leave the, we'll leave basically Vichy in power, call it, badge it as Free French, carry on.

[James Holland]

Yes, but it doesn't sit easy with him, does it? It doesn't sit easy with Roosevelt. You know, other people are very happy to kind of take that real politic approach, but, but he, he feels really disturbed by it. And it's interesting because when he flies in, he flies into the Gambia. Yeah. And he's appalled by what he sees.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

You know, the poverty and, and all the rest of it. And it, you know, definitely hardens his, his anti colonial stance. I mean, you know, no, no, no room to get into all that in the, in the prologue of Victory 45. But, but, but it's a, it's interesting.

[Al Murray]

But also he's a politician. After all. He's not a State Department guy who's, who's hedging and fudging, is he? He, he knows that if he says a thing publicly then, then it's going to fix the position and maybe later he'll have to alter course because he's altered course the minute you put politics into this beyond. Because I think what's really interesting is he arrives after all that cat's cradle. He basically arrives in Morocco and goes, ah, you know what? Unconditional surrender. Sod this, this doesn't work. You're all you. His core political sense is how to do these, how to make these statements. Set direction, set course. His. That's his core political sense in a way that some generals and some wonks and OSS people are only ever going to think this is sort of clever solution. Whereas in a way, unconditional surrender kind of in certain ways isn't very clever. It's like. No. That we're going to stick to one thing. You know what I mean? It's not. It's brilliant. But what it. And it's simple, what it isn't, is a sort of complex fudge that the spooks and all those people are trying to pull off in North Africa. I think it's so interesting that this is why we're still talking about this subject. Five years since we started.

[James Holland]

Jim, I woke up this morning and I was sort of lying in bed and sort of thinking about life. Crikey. You know, it's over five years since we've been doing this. We're coming, you know, in April. Next year will be six years we've been doing this.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

You know what, what, what's changed since that, you know, how, how's my thoughts on the Second World War changed since, since April 2019. And there's been some fantastic little switches.

[Al Murray]

It's great.

[James Holland]

Oh, I mean, what is it for you? I, I suppose for me it's, it's, it's Barbarossa.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

It's. It's part of a market. God, of course.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

Obviously, it's global shipping.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

It's a bl.

[Al Murray]

The thing I've I've just finished Andy Saunders book about, called Lone Wolf, which is about Richard Stevens, who was a night fighter pilot who would go out in a hurricane on his own with the canopy open. He apparently had extraordinary night vision. And what he'd do is he'd go up in his hurricane on his own, literally with the canopy open so he could see clearly. And he'd look for where there was flak and then he'd fly to where there was flak. Very often not telling anyone what he was doing, very often not being, not being vectored. He wasn't interested in that. He'd go look where there was flak because he knew the flak was being fired at possible targets. And then he'd go shoot bombers down and he shot loads of people down. And there's one, one description of he shoots a Heinkel down and the pl. His plane is so close when it happens, his plane is smeared with blood and blood and oil all over his hurricane when he comes back to land.

[James Holland]

Horrible.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. And so the thing I've been really leaning into is how horrible it all is. This is a story of great human drama and adventure and also the high, the real politic and the clever people getting to grips with intractable problems and all that stuff. But it's also, you know, there are people who say, oh, you, you're only interested in the war because you want to glorify it. Or you, you know, absolutely not. The thing, the thing I'm learning more and more and more and more is what a complete catastrophe this is on. On every level, for everyone, in every way imaginable. Think if the American economy didn't have to produce 40,000 fighter planes a year or whatever, what if it was able to produce fridges for the entire planet or something.

[James Holland]

What Roosevelt would like to be doing, isn't it?

[Al Murray]

And I've also, I mean, so I've been reading that and then I was looking at Richard Evans book, Hitler's People. The chapter on. The chapter on spear is really, really good because it's like whatever Speer may have said, just look at the raw numbers of who was working for him, who they were, what they were doing. There's just, you know, there's just absolutely no way.

[James Holland]

Despicable, isn't he? He's absolutely gets away with it.

[Al Murray]

He's despicable. And it is diabolical that he's allowed to get away with it. And it's people who damn well should know better. And the idea that he could lay. He could. He basically passes it all down to Fritz Salkland says oh it was him, it wasn't me. Is absolutely, you know, sort of amazing. Yeah, I mean this is the other thing. I mean and again, you know, this, this, the other knock on thing, production economies, you know that Evans makes the point that for all of Spear's spin about how many fighter planes they were producing and people go, well, the British weren't, you know, they had that really great year in 1944. The Germans are producing all these planes, you know, it's amazing. And the British, the British aren't able to, you know, don't produce as many or whatever. Well, who cares? Soviets and Americans as well, it doesn't matter. It's not, you know, it's literally not that kind of competition. They're not competing.

[James Holland]

Planes are completely useless if you haven't got people to.

[Al Murray]

Well and so on or oil. But, but, but you know, if they're not competing, they're not compet against one of these three giant imperiums. They competing against three of them. It is interesting reflecting on, reflecting on all this time looking at this subject and really having thought about it a lot and funnily enough, Joseph, Joseph Quinn I noticed has gone on, there's that podcast called History Rage where he was talking about Irish neutrality in the Second World War. And I think he's rageful about that. He is very rageful. He says that Ireland wasn't neutral at all actually. Ireland was, you know, doing some conscious cooperation whilst affecting a pose of neutrality. And that people, people, you know, it's Churchill after the war basically who paints this picture that Irish didn't really help as much as they could have done. And he says that's just not true. And it's. And, and particularly when you see how many people enlist, how many people from the Republic or the Free State at the time, how many, how many people enlist in the, in the British Imperial Armed Forces. It's kind of like, you know, can't.

[James Holland]

Really 8 000, isn't it?

[Al Murray]

Yeah, that's a ton of people. That's a ton of people for a country that supposedly wasn't anything to do with us. Right. That's an awful lot of people. And I think I, I think and.

[James Holland]

The last surviving member of the pilot of the Battle of Britain.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, so it's a thing I kind of, it's a thing I think look into properly and also because when we did our blitz series, people said, someone said well you didn't do the Belfast Blitz and of course Dublin's bombed As well. That's. The other thing is reflecting on the Blitz series and I really ENJ that, Jim. It was really, really, really interesting because again, it is that thing that's always been a thing that I've kind of taken for granted as an event rather than having yeah. Given any proposals.

[James Holland]

I was also thinking something else would be really fun to do, would be to do brief lives. We could do like sort of two to three episodes on key figures. Up first, the last great hero himself, Field Marshall the Earl Alexander. Well, don't you think? I mean, get the ball rolling. It'd be great.

[Al Murray]

Why not? Why not?

[James Holland]

I talk about him a lot, obviously, and, you know, we all know I'm a big fan and everything. Actually, his life is really, really amazing. It is absolutely incredible and all. You know, if you were going back, you. You'd go back to kind of year Dot and what they were up to and, you know, First World War, if they were in the First World War, and what they were doing in between the wars and all that, so on and so forth. I'd be fascinating. Framing the man that they.

[Al Murray]

Their lives before the Second World War are adventure stories. I mean, Jimmy Doolittle, Alex is. Well, God, Jesus Christ. Yeah. I mean, what a man he is.

[James Holland]

Be great, wouldn't it? Yeah, that could do it just once. We could just do it once in a blue moon.

[Al Murray]

That pioneering era between the. Between the wars, isn't it, that, you know, Al. His life before the Second World War is an adventure story, isn't it? It's like.

[James Holland]

Yeah, completely.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And even. Even before he goes into the First World War, you know, he runs the Irish Mile and wins it effortlessly, you know, plays in the most famous Eden Harrow match at Lords Fowler's match. You know, he's just. And then to prove he's fit, he then runs 50 miles or something in Ireland to prove that he's recovered from his thigh wound.

[Al Murray]

Really.

[James Holland]

Yeah, he's just. And then he commands German troops in the Baltic lumber and anyway, I don't. Don't eat our own sandwiches. It's properly good story, the whole. No, Shira Brigade Commander up in the Northwest frontier.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

You know, a very unusual God's. God's regiments usually don't serve in India.

[Al Murray]

No, no, no, no, that's.

[James Holland]

That's an anomaly. No, it's absolutely fascinating, you know, and I've got all these letters and stuff, so we've got loads of. Loads of material. I mean, that's one for the future.

[Al Murray]

Do you think a man like him would have gone into the army now what?

[James Holland]

Second son, aristocratic family. Probably.

[Al Murray]

Probably.

[James Holland]

No. Yeah, probably. I think he's just temperamentally, completely suited to it.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Evidently.

[James Holland]

Yeah, we can think about that. I mean, you know, not, not, not for the, the short term. We've got other things, haven't we? We've got Battle of bulge coming up.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

Female Spies with Claire Mully. Yeah. Yeah.

[Al Murray]

We're going to take a very short break chewing the cud here. We'll be back in a second.

[State Farm Advertisement]

This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Knowing you could be saving money for the things you really want is a great feeling. Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with a personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state.

[Discover Advertisement]

Are you still quoting 30 year old movies? Have you said cool beans in the past 90 days? Do you think Discover isn't widely accepted? If this sounds like you, you're stuck in the past. Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide. And every time you make a purchase with your card, you automatically earn cash back. Welcome to the now it pays to Discover. Learn [e-mail] credit card based on the February 2024 Nelson Report.

[Mint Mobile Advertisement]

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to [e-mail].

[Al Murray]

Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3.

[James Holland]

Month plan equivalent to $15 per month Required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes.

[Al Murray]

And feeful [e-mail] Actung Achtung. Welcome back to we have ways of making you talk with me, Al Murray and James Holland. Jim, I got, I got a letter here from the, from a major general by the way.

[James Holland]

Oh, it's not signed by the king then.

[Al Murray]

It's not signed by the king.

[James Holland]

But is this, this cut to Kalamari.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, well, I haven't been gazetted yet.

[James Holland]

You are going to get a formal sheet which you can add to your downstairs Lou, aren't you? Along with the pictures of viewers with Judi Dench.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, all that. Yeah. But yes, there's a Seven Principles of Public Life document I have to read, which I think I'm a bit nervous. A bit nervous about. Yeah, that for those.

[James Holland]

Still getting a bit serious now that you have got. You'll start getting some keys, key responsibilities.

[Al Murray]

Yes, yes. Yeah. And I've got to be mindful of my security implications of any content that I may post on social media. Because the thing is, is I'm. I am allowed to with this so that I don't know if people know what I'm talking about. So I'm. I've been. I'm going to be the Honorary Colonel of 299 Parachute Engineer Squadron of 2ft 23 Parachute Engineer Regiment. So they're there. That's the reserve part of 29 Parachute Engineer Regiment. And. But it's basically go to dinners, commemoration stuff, family days. But I can also go on exercise if I want a show up and, and hang out.

[James Holland]

Show me what's going on.

[Al Murray]

And I think that's the, that's the security implications part. What would be, what would be more fun than sitting in land Rover at 4 o' clock in the morning, falling asleep with a cup of coffee in my lap? I mean, yeah, brilliant. What else could anyone want? Now, the other day we, we. In fact, the day I went to Galway, we. We took a. An M10 across Lambeth Bridge, didn't we?

[James Holland]

Not a tank.

[Al Murray]

Not a tank. Rubber tracks as well. So we didn't like tear up the tarmac and haven't been billed. I mean, it's bad enough you're getting speeding tickets in Holland. The last thing we want is a bill for new tarmac.

[James Holland]

The problem is I've got to pay for that. That means I've got to ring up the bank and give them an IBAN code. In fact, actually, it might have been you anyway.

[Al Murray]

It may have been me. I don't think it was, though, because I drove on the last day. Anyway, it doesn't matter. We'll go. Hodge. So. So, I mean, I. I thought that that was.

[James Holland]

Brilliant. I love pulling up at the Pelican Crossing.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Stopping for traffic lights. Yes.

[James Holland]

At the Belusia Beacon.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. Someone. Yes, of course, someone shouted up to me, we can't shoot that. We've been told not. No property damage or whatever. You know the line from Band of Brothers as we.

[James Holland]

All right.

[Al Murray]

As we trundled along.

[James Holland]

No, it was great fun, wasn't it? And, and, you know, fantastic. To Launch, we have Wastefest 5. Big victory. Putting the funnel into Fun Camp, into CampGripper.

[Al Murray]

And that's for. That's next. That's in September next year, the 12th, 14th September at Black Pit Brewery. General sale tickets on some VIP and early bird stuff has all got, I think, has gone. I'm very much, I'm very much looking forward to the festival. I mean, it feels like a long way off, though, because it is actually next year rather than.

[James Holland]

Well, it does. But on the other hand, you know, we're sort of gearing up for doing all the programming stuff and got some exciting people already lined up, very exciting people lined up and some very exciting hardware already lined up. So all of that is, all of that's good and it, and it gives you something to kind of focus on and look forward to and think about and ponder.

[Al Murray]

I was just going to say you, you were wearing a very, A very attractive jacket when we tooled across Lambeth Bridge.

[James Holland]

As you know, I do like my Second World War jackets and, you know, some of them are really hard to get hold of and you finally do get hold of the right one, the right size, and then it promptly starts wearing out because it's 80 years old and it's already seen quite a lot of action. Yeah. And so you kind of think, well, this is not very sensible. And there's one particularly that I've been wanging on about for absolutely ages and I know that it caught your eye as well, which was the M 1941 Arctic. Yeah, this is the first one we're making and everything has been sourced in, in the uk. So surge come. The surge lining, which is just perfect, comes from Harriga or something like that. The, the cloth, the twill comes from somewhere else. It's all assembled in a, in a, a, in a. Of tailors in Greenwich. So the kind of, you know, the unit cost is, you know, getting all that, getting all the sourcing, all the material, then getting it made, because effectively it's handmade. I mean, it's not, you know, using machines, but it is effectively handmade. So it does cost a little bit, but, but they'll, they're really nice, you know, they'll. They'll be good, you know, and they're incredibly accurate reproductions and, you know, if anyone wants to invest in one, you know, it should, should last a lifetime. And then what we're kind of do is we're, we're, we're going to just do limited runs, so we'll do. So this first one, we're only going to make 531 of them and that's because that is the days of combat that the US 3rd Infantry Division saw. And they were one of the units that used these jackets.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And so we thought we just make 531. Once they've gone, they've gone and that's it. They'll never be again, certainly not by us. I think, I think they'll be on sale in maybe end of January, beginning of February, something like that.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. Well, the prototype you were wearing is absolutely fantastic.

[James Holland]

Yeah. But that's only sample one, so we're now at sample two coming, and we're making you one specially.

[Al Murray]

Oh, right. So we should. We do some questions.

[James Holland]

Yes.

[Al Murray]

Okay. Where do we. Where do we want to start? Paul Thompson. Snipers, you hear a lot about snipers, are being sniped at. How much did each nation have?

[James Holland]

Okay, so there's a big difference between snipers and snipers. So the snipers, as in Stalingrad, you know, with scopes and all the rest of it and proper train snipers. And there's Germans in a tree in Normandy. And two things are not the same. There's rifles, riflemen.

[Al Murray]

Shut.

[James Holland]

Sir, they're just riflemen. Yeah. And. And there's. There's a massive difference. So numbers of, of. Of snipers who are trained snipers with Aldous scopes or whatever they've got on them. Very few.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

In the big scheme of things.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

In a lone spot in a tree or behind a hedge with a rifle, obviously. Lots and lots and lots.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. I mean, in Normandy, I can't remember which division it is, but basically the, The GOC says, can we stop calling them snipers, please? Because that's putting. Putting the wind up people. Let's report them as riflemen, please, from now on. That there are riflemen staying behind or riflemen taking potshots. That it's, it's not elite German snipers picking people off mercilessly, you know, because. Because there's obviously the, the. If you're being pot. Pot shots being taken at you, the argument could be that, well, you're being careless. If you're being visible, if you're making yourself obvious, if the officers are giving away who they are, because that's who you know, supposedly who snipers are aiming at, isn't it? It's a fellow with a map case. It's someone with his pips. It's, you know, it's all that sort of stuff. And there is. There is a moment in Normandy I can't remember, but I can't remember who it is, but it's kind of like, not snipers, riflemen, it's random riflemen taking pot shots. Thanks very much. And tight. And you know, these are just, these are, these are discipline questions of you moving around your positions properly or whatever. You know, if you're being picked off, it's because you're giving someone a target. Right. There are snipers in the British army, aren't there, who are essentially scouts really, aren't they? Really what they're doing.

[James Holland]

So basically someone with Lee Enfield with a, with a scope on it and.

[Al Murray]

Who'S going forward and having a look as much as anything else, rather than knocking people off. But I mean, it's, it's interesting, isn't it? Because, because sniper makes it sound like the enemy's sort of dedicated and steely eyed. There's just something about the implication of the, of the word.

[James Holland]

How many actual trained snipers there were. I'm not, I don't know. But you know, there were, you know, but the.

[Al Murray]

Well, Saving Private Ryan is a lot to answer for, isn't it? At the old church in Arnhem, talking to a veteran and him saying, everyone ate snipers. Of course, mate. There was one up in that tree over there. Everyone ate some. Because it's personal and it's, it's, it's murderous, isn't it, rather than, it's deliberate rather than, you know, you're trying to keep their heads down or you're knocking. You know, it's about the selecting and the cold, cold blooded nature of it or something, isn't it?

[James Holland]

I like this, this question from Charlie Barnes. It says what would have been the effect of Sukov and Montgomery exchanging roles in 1944, 1945, given their totally different approaches to war. A what if question. Well, that is a what if question. Well, I can do a pretty good stab at this. I don't think there'd be much of a British army left in 1945. They'd all be dead and we'd have lost our seat at the top table.

[Al Murray]

Well, maybe, but let's say they're operating within their systems. They're both very, very clever people. Right, so let's say Monty is a Stalin general. Then I think he would then behave like one. Right. If he's told lives are no object, crack, push on, crack on, then, then maybe that's what he'd do and Zhukov would go steal. Not flesh, I don't know. Because he's a clever man too. It's hard to say.

[James Holland]

I, I sort of have this vague sense that Zhukov is wired in a different way.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[James Holland]

Well, I don't think he better resist it. But I don't think you've only got to look at the opening attack of the crossing. The Yoda.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[James Holland]

The Zelo Heights.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[James Holland]

It's absolute carnage to be all carnage.

[Al Murray]

It's complete people to burn, isn't it?

[James Holland]

Oh, God, it's unbelievable how wasteful he is in that battle. When's that start? On the like 16th of April or something like that?

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

1945. It's just incredible.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah. It's not.

[James Holland]

They're just absolutely slaughtered.

[Al Murray]

None of it's pretty, is it? It's very interesting though, because there's that, there's the moment right at the end of the war after the. When, when they invade bits of Japan. The Soviets and they take an absolute kicking trying to land on one of the islands, like a real. It's a bloodbath, you know, American historians pointed out and go, see, it would have been really, really difficult to invade Japanese occupied Japan. Bits. Right. But actually maybe it's just the Soviets like, go chuck people, you know what I mean? It's, it's, it's, it's hard to call because when you look at how, as you say, when you look at how this, the way the Soviets have been doing things tactically up to point, it's not like that. It's not like they particularly care about their guys much, is it? It's very weird, it's very odd. Zhukov, though, you don't get to the top of that system and be wired like normal people. Right, you say, you say it's wired differently.

[James Holland]

So Christian Rutherford says, what was the point of creating elaborate camouflage designs on World War II aircraft only to undermine them with garish insignia? Let's devise a scheme of subtle mottled grays and then paint the entire nose bright yellow. So you are referring to, of course, mes. Is that JG or JG 26? I can't remember which were the yellow nose ones, but anyway. Or was it JG52? Anyway, one of those. I can't remember the top of my head, but. So I think, I think what's going on here is in the 1930s, before the war, they're thinking, well, we need to, we need to camouflage our plane. So they camouflage them. And then the practicalities of war are such that the Luftwaffe is on the attack and gets very cocky and basically ruling the roost. So they need to camouflage them in quite the same way. But you're not going to kind of paint them all yellow and pink and green.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

But what they are discovering is that they haven't got interconnecting radio systems and they haven't got ground control as much in 1940 and they do need to be able to see who's who and the best way to see who's who is to have really, really bright engine cowling. And it's basically as simple as that. And they just realize they do continue to, to camouflage and when they're on the back foot the, they get rid of all the yellow noses and stuff. I mean you don't have yellow noses in North Africa for example.

[Al Murray]

The Luftwaffe like late 1941 their, their stations, their air bases are completely lit up up.

[James Holland]

Right.

[Al Murray]

And the Germans are flying with their navigation lights on. So all you really have to do is you, is you go and you loiter with your lights off obviously in a black, in a blacked out aircraft. You go and loiter around a German airfield and these guys just turn up and you can shoot them down and you shoot them down as they're landing. So they, they think they're safe. They're on the home straight. Not the last time. A penultimate time I went up in a Spitfire Spitfire out. It was out of Biggin Hill for some a telly and there was, there was another Spitfire out at the same time and you look, you look down and the gray and the green work as camouflage. It's hard to spot, it's tricky to spot. And the roundels are obviously for when you get closer and before you, before you engage it by accident. Right. Because what you see out the corner of your eyes motion rather than, than an airframe shape necessarily to start with. Right.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

Because the camouflage works the kind of the gray and the gray and green. The late, you know the second RAF scheme, the later RF scheme actually works. It's extraordinary. And you think what? How?

[James Holland]

Why?

[Al Murray]

But actually it's a good enough blend of, of an kind of. The gray is a sort of anonymous enough color that your eye doesn't quite clock it.

[James Holland]

So. Interesting. And also obviously the splinter design on the ships works, doesn't it?

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah. The dazzle pattern works really, really well, doesn't it? Yeah. Right. Now Greg Stewart asks and I know what's going to happen now. Why was the British submarine arm so bad?

[James Holland]

Says who? Greg? I mean what he says the submarine aren't that bad. Have you not looked at the temp submarine flotilla operating as a Malta? Have you not looked at Ben Bryant? Have you not looked at Lieutenant Commander Wanklin, vc, you know, the high upholder, the highest scoring Allied submarine of the entire war in terms of tonnage sunk. I mean, the bottom line is, is we don't really need submarines. British, British doesn't. The Royal Navy doesn't really need submarines too much because, you know, submarines are there to destroy other vessels and obviously the Germans don't really have any or not very many. Yeah. And they're gone. You know, where they are needed is in the Mediterranean and they're incredibly successful there.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah. Yes.

[James Holland]

I mean, would you agree with that?

[Al Murray]

Yeah, absolutely. Transformatively so. In the Mediterranean. It's true.

[James Holland]

Transformatively so. Yeah. I mean, and in multiple different roles as well. I mean, it's not just the U class submarines, it's also the, the, the, the teas and the, the bigger ones that are, are bringing fuel and all sorts of things. But I mean, you know, submarines in the entire North African campaign are absolutely brilliant. Honestly, that book by Brent Bryant is brilliant. Brilliant about the submarine commander.

[Al Murray]

We hope that answers your question. Yeah.

[James Holland]

So get back in your box, Greg. Fantastic.

[Al Murray]

Well, that's all we've, I think that's all we've got time for. We've, we've certainly. We've chewed the cud in an old school. We have ways manner. Thanks everybody. Thanks everybody for listening. Don't forget to look into walking the ground. Have a look at that on our YouTube channel. And Avery, which is Jim's Extraordinary Apparel. It's the best way of putting it. And we have Ways Fest is on sale, of course, for next year. We havewaysfest.co.uk 12th to 14th September. Black Pit Brewery next, right next door to Silverstone and we look forward to seeing you all there. Thanks for listening. We'll be back soon. Cheerio.

[James Holland]

Cheerio.