← WW2 Pod: We Have Ways of Making You Talk
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- [00:02]
Al Murray
Thank you for listening to we have ways of making you talk. Sign up to our Patreon to receive bonus content, live streams, and our weekly newsletter with money off books and museum visits as well. Plus early access to all live show tickets. That's patreon.com wehaveways.
- [00:24]
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- [00:55]
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- [01:20]
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- [02:00]
Al Murray
Danger Chap Danger welcome to we have ways of making you talk with me, Al Murray and James Holland and our very special Best in the West General series teeing you up to we have ways Fest at the 12th 14th September. What we thought we'd do for you is a series of episodes where in a completely fair and unbiased and impartial manner is lay out for you who we think the best generals in the west are amongst. First of all we're going to do in this episode we'll be doing Duke General so Dominions UK Empire.
- [02:27]
James Holland
We're doing two episodes on this and.
- [02:29]
Al Murray
We'Re doing two episodes on Duke and then we'll be do two episodes episodes on our American Friends and then of course two episodes on the Other side of the Hill.
- [02:37]
James Holland
But what about what about the Italians and the French?
- [02:38]
Al Murray
Well, which side of the French on in this instance, Jim? Because let's not, let's not. Let's not forget they did bat for both teams, so to speak.
- [02:46]
James Holland
When I was doing some notes, I put down Axis and I suddenly thought, well, you know, that's interesting, isn't it? You know, Darlan, I mean, you know, I know he's an admiral, so he's off. So just to keep it simple, this is Duke, American, German. We're not bothering with General Messe, who's the only one who could sort of reasonably be consider, I think.
- [03:04]
Al Murray
Yeah. And what we've got is we've got a load of names for you in each of these three pairs. We're going to sort of kick the ball around talking about the people concerned and look at them and there'll be one or two. One or two names you will have definitely heard, especially if you're a regular listener to. We have ways of making you talk. And there'll be one or two names that maybe, Maybe I haven't thought about considering them in the pantheon of khaki greats. So it's khaki greats, then it's olive drab greats, and then it's the old felt grau grates. And. And obviously there might be a lot of booing and hissing doing the German general, but there might be quite a lot of booing and hissing during some of this. Because after all, this is one of those topics that is. Contentious is the wrong word.
- [03:43]
James Holland
Divisive.
- [03:43]
Al Murray
Yeah. Not. Nicola Sturgeon, Divisive. It's a thing people like to argue about, isn't it? Right.
- [03:48]
James Holland
Yeah, they really do. They really do.
- [03:50]
Al Murray
They do like to argue about it. And often the historiography sort of flow of the argument comes from post war national ideas and a lot of. But also during the war.
- [03:58]
James Holland
Yes, and it also definitely comes from post war, you know, and the narrative of the war, historiography of the war. You know, there comes trends on. Someone's in, someone's out.
- [04:07]
Al Murray
Yeah.
- [04:07]
James Holland
You know, but obviously we're completely impartial and that's the most important thing.
- [04:10]
Al Murray
And also, if someone's not on the list, that is a judgment in itself. But the great thing about this is we want you to take part. So we're going to have these. These six episodes where we. Where we talk about this best in the west idea. And this is basically North West Europe, North Africa, the Mediterranean theaters we're talking about.
- [04:26]
James Holland
It's not the Far east, it's not the Eastern Front.
- [04:28]
Al Murray
No.
- [04:28]
James Holland
It's not the Pacific.
- [04:29]
Al Murray
No, no, no.
- [04:30]
James Holland
You know, so. So for example, Frank Messer, he's not in this. But were we to do best in the east, best in the Pacific, then obviously he would be on that, even though he was briefly and he was in the west, but he was sacked. So it makes it kind of hard to just for him being the best.
- [04:43]
Al Murray
That was the first of his headquarters that were overrun during the war. Anyway. Once is unfortunate, twice old boy, might seem like carelessness. But the best thing, the most important thing about this is we want you to take part. So on our Patreon, we have ways of making you talk. Patreon is your opportunity to vote on the runners and riders in Best on the west. Whittle them down if you possibly can to some people for us to talk about at the festival with various historians who will be coming in prepared and forewarned and forearmed to make the case for their favorite generals and those generals contribution during the Second World War. And it's. That's what we've got for you, Right?
- [05:18]
James Holland
Yep. And we're going to be discussing the lives and careers of 14 in each category. So 14 Duke Generals, 14American, 14 German. And we're going to kick off, aren't we, with General Sir Ronald Forbes. Adam. Perhaps not an obvious one, but an interesting character. 1885-1982. Lived to a good old age. Yeah, very old age.
- [05:37]
Al Murray
Yeah. And Eton, then at Woolwich, which is interesting. So he's not a Sandhurst man, so he's sort of on the technical side of soldiering because the Royal Military Academy at Woolwich is gunners, really in theory.
- [05:46]
James Holland
Joined the field Artillery in 1905.
- [05:49]
Al Murray
I know, isn't that amazing?
- [05:50]
James Holland
Served in India before heading to the Western Front and the Italian Front. So lots and lots of action. Gets the DSO mentioned in dispatches multiple times and appointed Officer of the Order of the British Empire obe. He's already earmarked just by that for between the wars. High rank.
- [06:06]
Al Murray
But he's one of these people who's been at the Staff College, you know, he's trained there, he's been an instructor briefly, the Commandant at the Staff Colleges. So this is a guy who is British army pre First World War. First World War, interwar through and through. He's Deputy Chief of Imperial general staff in January 38. So this is a guy destined absolutely for the top. And then of course he's CRA in first division in 1936. So he's, you know, he's done lots of important jobs and as you say, he's a gunner. The thing that's really important About Adam is that he becomes adjutant general in 1941 and his contribution really to the British war effort is the sort of modernisation and adaptation of the army into a modern citizen soldier army under the pressure of the war as it moves forward. The thing that is really, really interesting is some people regard him as a bit sort of progressive and flip floppy and lefty, but that's because basically he's thinking, how on earth do I bring the army up to date? How do I democratise officer selection? All these sorts of things which they know they've got to do because they're chewing through office officers so fast. They're not. The army aren't necessarily doing that because they read the Guardian. They're doing it because they think, well, we're just going to have to. Because we've run out of nice public school boys. And so there was be War Office selection boards, really important general service corps, which is.
- [07:19]
James Holland
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is based on. It's psychological based. That's how they do it. So it's systematic. It's not about class background.
- [07:27]
Al Murray
Yeah.
- [07:28]
James Holland
It's about intelligence and aptitude.
- [07:30]
Al Murray
Exactly. And what he does is he, you know, the army needs. Because the thing about the British army is that, you know, and if you. Again, if you have regular listener podcasts, you know about lots of private armies that even during the war, even while Adam is trying to sort of iron things out and standardize things, is that there are lots of private armies and ways of doing things and regiments that have their particular way of doing things. And he basically tries to standardize it because the thing that's coming to him from the generals in the field is they want the men to all. To all be doing the same thing, so you can give them the orders, you know what they're going to do next, as it were. And so there's this great big standardization goes on and he's really important in terms of the abca, the Army Bureau of Current Affairs.
- [08:05]
James Holland
Well, yes, you should just say the first bit is it's a General Service Corps. This is a GSC, which he brings in in 1942. And it's brilliant. And you're right, the APKA is absolutely fantastic. I've got shelves full of these things. These are notes from the Theaters of War Training pamphlet number 42 43, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, you know, and this is all part of the RE Bureau of Current affairs abca. And it's all about keeping people informed, learning lessons. Also bat morale.
- [08:30]
Al Murray
Yeah. I mean, lots of people Won't have heard of him. Plenty will have done. But what he's really, really. He is how the army ends out. British army is basically really chewing through the Germans. He's one of the people that's made that possible. And I think that's why he's in our list. Simple as that. Yeah.
- [08:44]
James Holland
And just one other thing about him. He is the guy who sets up the Dunkirk perimeter. He's three corps commander in 1940 in France. And he sets that up as well. And does it very, very well, has to be said, because 338,000 people get off.
- [08:55]
Al Murray
Yeah. So that's Adam.
- [08:56]
James Holland
Don't dismiss him.
- [08:58]
Al Murray
No, at all. But next up, and we're doing these purely alphabetically, ladies and gentlemen. But it like James Holland has slightly loaded the dice here, or prepared the wicket, let's put it that way. He's got his groundsman out in the middle of the night with a very heavy roller because here comes Field Marshal Sir Harold Alexander.
- [09:18]
James Holland
Well, you know, what a legend. I mean, you know, the thing is, he is. He's just. He's just a great man, you know, he just is. He's a man sort of without personal ambition. He's got a profound sense of honor. He is the man who has the only senior commander in the Second World War of any side that has commanded troops at every rank in battle.
- [09:37]
Al Murray
Yeah, yeah.
- [09:38]
James Holland
He's the only Allied commander to command German troops, which he does when he takes command of the Baltic Landswehr in the. In 1919 in the Baltic Wars. He is unusual in that he's a guardsman who gets sent to the Indian army.
- [09:51]
Al Murray
Yeah, that's pretty weird, isn't it?
- [09:53]
James Holland
Yeah, yeah, yeah. He takes command of the Noshira Brigade in 1934 and he disappears the first three months. No one knows quite where he is every afternoon. And then it comes to the Noshira Brigade sports day and he stands up and speaks them all in fluent Urdu. And actually he can speak seven languages, which is very impressive, including German, Italian, Russian, obviously Urndu, smattering of Gurkhali. He's very switched on from that point of view. He sees lots of action in the Low Agra Campaign against the Patans and the Malakand in the Second Momand Campaign, where he gains a very, very good reputation for leading from the front. He's promoted to major general in 1937, which makes him at the time, the youngest in the army. He's then appointed to Command Command the 1st Infantry Division in 1938. And it's with the 1st Infantry Division, that he goes to war in France in 1940. He serves under Brooke, who is the corps commander.
- [10:39]
Al Murray
Yep.
- [10:39]
James Holland
And then when most of the senior command disappear off, he is the last senior commander to remain behind and he oversees the evacuation. And he is the last soldier to leave the beaches, British soldier to leave the beaches on 2 June.
- [10:52]
Al Murray
There's lots of accounts that confirm that that's not just a burnished legend from a superfan. I mean, Alexander is one of those people that you feel like countries don't produce anymore. Seven languages. He's a brilliant sportsman.
- [11:04]
James Holland
The end of 1914, he gets shot in the First Battle of the Yii and he gets wounded in the eye, in the fire and the hand. And to prove his fit again, he walks 64 miles in one day.
- [11:12]
Al Murray
It's extraordinary. He's Irish, of course. I think that's the other thing to remember.
- [11:15]
James Holland
He's an Ulsterman.
- [11:16]
Al Murray
A lot of the people who get to the top in the British army are Irish, I think is often worth remembering or bearing in mind at least.
- [11:22]
James Holland
Yeah. He also sets up the battle schools and new training techniques using live ammunition, simple phrases, and all the rest of which comes the basis of training for thereafter. Then he gets sent over to Burma in 1942 to take oversee the retreat back across the Irrawaddy of the Burma core. And does it. Does it brilliantly. And actually, not only does he do that very, very smoothly, he also, in his report and dispatch afterwards, he then recommends how to defeat the Japanese, which is completely ignored by everyone until Slim.
- [11:49]
Al Murray
Realizes that getting hung up on places is pointless, that you've got to fight them, defeat them, not hold onto places, because what they'll do is go past you. They'll cut you off and leave you to hang, is the thing. And he understands that. He must have felt, though, by 1942 that he was just basically being given disasters to sort of midwife.
- [12:07]
James Holland
Well, yes, and then. But then he gets called back and gets appointed GOC of first Army. But then there is this, you know, Auchinlecht gets sacked, so he then gets bumped up to Commander in Chief of Middle east. And then Monty comes in because Gott, who is going to be the 8th army commander, gets assassinated. And so then he becomes the C and C Middle East. He's the person who says, no more retreats. It's not Monty, it's him. He also, at the Battle of Alamein, well, he suggested a gang. He says, you might want to mention to Monty that this line of attack is not the right One, this is Operation Supercharged. Second half of the battle. You might want to go this way instead, which Monty then adopts and with great success. He then, despite being Commander in Chief of the Middle east, he then gets promoted to Deputy supreme allied commander from February 1943 onwards, gets sent to be Army Group Commander in Tunisia. There's a crisis going on in the middle of February and within about a week he sorted it all out and again creates battle schools in North Africa to retrain green American troops and frankly, green British troops as well. Then commands 15th Army Group for Operation Husky. And one of his great things is that everyone likes him, so he's very good at coalition warfare, which he then takes into Italy. And, you know, at some point he has 24 different nationalities serving underneath him. And he ends the war as Supreme Allied Commander and a Field Marshal. And, you know, this accusation that he doesn't have great strategic insight, but it's really interesting. I've just been reading Saul David's book on Tunisgrad, and, you know, his strategic. Strategic insight seems pretty impressive to me. I mean, you know, he seems to know exactly what's going on.
- [13:33]
Al Murray
Brook sounds off about him in his diary a lot, doesn't he?
- [13:36]
James Holland
Yeah, yeah, but Brooks sounds off about everybody in his diary, so. So don't take that in isolation.
- [13:40]
Al Murray
Well, no, but that's the thing people have cherry picked, isn't it, to bash him with that. Brook was sort of dunderhead with no strategic sense. He's such a thick. He calls him thick and things like that. It's very weird.
- [13:48]
James Holland
He's just. He is the consummate Coalition commander. You know, he's tactful, he's unflappable.
- [13:54]
Al Murray
I don't quite believe that a man who ends up a Field Marshal has no ambition, Jim, but there we are.
- [13:58]
James Holland
He has no personal ambition. So English, French, Ital, German, Russian, Urdu, get by on Spanish and Gurkhali. Amazing artist. I mean, you know, he's just at the top of British efforts from the success of Alamein through Tunisia, Sicily and Italy. And he is absolutely one of the most visible and famous British commanders there has ever been. You know, back in 1945, I mean, you know, there is not a single person in the country who wouldn't know who he was. You know, his fame has been eclipsed by Monti in the years since.
- [14:29]
Al Murray
But. But let's move on. The orc, Claude Auchinleck, who is one of those characters who sort of. He has his advocates, doesn't he? And he has his. He has his people who stick up for him, but his is. His is one of those careers where basically he ran out of road with Churchill, ran out of luck at the point at the war where generals aren't having much luck for all sorts of reasons. The orc is one of those characters who very much sort of cops it as a result of various failings in Britain's ability to make a war stick. And is it him? Is it the kit? Is it the training? Is it the situation? Is it the. Some weird strategic decisions by his bosses and so on? But he's a. He's an interesting guy, isn't he? And again, he's another one of these people. Wellington College, Sandhurst Royal in a Skilling Fusiliers, goes to India, learns Urdu and Punjabi. Another one, you know, he's. He's a great ability with his rapport with his Indian troops. He's born in 1884, so by the First World War, with the Indian army, northwest Frontier, he goes to Mesopotamia for the other people, where we all talk about.
- [15:26]
James Holland
Or also around the siege of Kut and all that.
- [15:28]
Al Murray
Exactly, all that. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, this is dismantling the Ottoman Empire and, you know, he's mentioned dispatches. He's a tremendous leader.
- [15:37]
James Holland
He's got the dso, but he's Indian army, isn't he?
- [15:39]
Al Murray
Yeah, yeah, he is. Because there is this thing, isn't there, that the way the British army works is that they've sort of. If you're from east of Suez, you may come to North Africa and fight and command, but you may not. And you may as easily swap between them. Whereas it's less likely that you'll go northwest Europe to India. It's just a lot less likely. And Orchin elect falls into this category, doesn't he, of someone who's. His center of gravity is. Is Suez, basically, you know, he's in India in between the wars. And this is all this tribal coin, we'd call it now, counterinsurgency in Waziristan frontier campaigns against tribal forces, which is all quite euphemistic, isn't it?
- [16:14]
James Holland
Police actions.
- [16:16]
Al Murray
And then he's at Quetta, which is the staff college. The, you know, people have differing opinions about Quetta, don't they? They say it's.
- [16:21]
James Holland
Yeah, they say it's sort of, you know, it's kind of policing rather than kind of proper soldiering. I mean, the point is. But he then gets posted back because, you know, by. By 1939, he's an incredibly experienced commander. You know, he's a general and he's and he's. He commands fifth division in Norway, which, you know, Norway's a failure, but a bit of it does. Okay. And, you know, he's. He's, you know, he's picked up because he knows Wavell already. He's, you know, he's picked up and becomes commander in chief after Wavell sacked in 1941 of the Middle East.
- [16:45]
Al Murray
But.
- [16:45]
James Holland
But it is his misfortune. It's his bad luck. The Middle east command at that time is absolutely vast and it's too big for one man, and that's a failure higher up the chain. Nonetheless, you know, though he has a certain amount of success, it is he that authorizes the Gazala Line, which is a terrible idea. You know, this idea that you have a. Have a defensive line, you know, which has an end but can be outflanked rather than beefing up to Brook, which had been, you know, besieged unsuccessfully for nine months the previous year, is a mad decision. And he also puts Neil Ritchie in charge of 8th Varney, which is a terrible decision. So. So his judgment is a bit dodgy.
- [17:19]
Al Murray
And then steps in and commands 8th army himself, comes down from the mountain.
- [17:23]
James Holland
As well as being Commander in chief, Middle East. Those who are for him say, oh, Monty just inherited Auchinleck's plan. No, he didn't. Okay, so Auchinleck goes back to the Alamein line because that's the only conceivable line they could have have taken at that particular point. He does a very. A perfectly effective defensive battle where, you know, air power massively contributes. But the plan for the Battle of Alamein, the second Battle of Alamein, the one that is the great victory of Montgomery and Alex, is not Auchinlech's plan. And he gets sacked because at the time, that is what is required. You know, he's run out of ideas, he's run out of steam, and it needs a fresh take. And, you know, he does pretty well in India subsequently.
- [18:01]
Al Murray
But let's not forget Alamein is. That's the last stopper before Egypt falls. Basically. No one. No one wants to be fighting from there. So the idea that Monty might have inherited the orc's plan. Well, the orc's plan in that case is pretty desperate, isn't it, that you've ended up at the last place you can defend as a last resort, really.
- [18:17]
James Holland
Yeah. And he also. He does. Subsequently, he gets sent to. Sent to India and he becomes CNC of India. And, you know, he does a pretty good job there. He's very supportive of Slim. Very supportive of Mountbatten, you know, but that's in India and it's not in. In the west, is he. Can he really be considered the best in the West? I don't think. Not a chance. Is he dies in Marrakech. There are always rumors about him, but age 96.
- [18:43]
Al Murray
Well, let's do one last big one before the break in this Best of the West Duke Special. And it does feel like this episode's front loaded with some legends and then. I mean, be honest, no one's gonna vote for the orc after that write up.
- [18:54]
James Holland
Well, you can't though, can you? I mean, no. People can if they want.
- [18:57]
Al Murray
If they want. General Sir Alan Brooke. Also known as Alan Brooke. Confusingly, he's Alan Brook afternight.
- [19:02]
James Holland
What was that?
- [19:03]
Al Murray
I don't know. Well, that'd be like calling yourself James Holland Holland. Lord James Holland Al Murray.
- [19:09]
James Holland
Merriment.
- [19:10]
Al Murray
I should insist on being called Almory.
- [19:12]
James Holland
He was Al Murray and he became Almory.
- [19:14]
Al Murray
He's not. But he's not Alan Brooke until after the. Until after the war. So strictly speaking, throughout the war, he's.
- [19:20]
James Holland
General Sir Alan Brooke.
- [19:21]
Al Murray
Yeah. Or just General Brooke. He. Again, we've another Ulster Irish, Anglo Irishman, but French Frenchified, which I think is very interesting. You know, he grows up in France, doesn't he? Born in Banier de Big, or. Which I have been to the spa town of Bagnier de Bigorre where I went once. Went.
- [19:39]
James Holland
Is that in the Haute Pyrenees?
- [19:40]
Al Murray
Yes, it was the finish line for the Tour de France when I went to watch Tour de France come powering into the town one afternoon. It's a little spa town and there's very nice pork. Porc de Big. Or is a. It's a specialty.
- [19:53]
James Holland
Black pigs of Big or an amazing name.
- [19:58]
Al Murray
But he's so. He's bilingual, isn't he? And again, he goes to Woolwich, Not Sandhurst, which is the sort of people who can't afford Sandhurst place to study as an officer.
- [20:06]
James Holland
Mind you, he is an aristocrat. I mean, the son of Victor Brook. Bart.
- [20:09]
Al Murray
Well, maybe they're broke. I mean, aristocrats. That doesn't necessarily.
- [20:12]
James Holland
Well, he is broke later on in life, isn't he? He's always broke.
- [20:14]
Al Murray
Yeah, exactly. You know, then of course, the First World War comes because he's born in 1883, so, you know, he's exactly the right age for the. For the First World War. He's with the Royal Horse Artillery.
- [20:23]
James Holland
He's staff officer, liaison officer.
- [20:25]
Al Murray
This is. Well, that's the interesting thing, isn't it? So he's got to do a lot of that kind of handling. Handling of people, which becomes very much his great sort of skill later on is dealing with people. Dealing with people, maybe with weird demands and so on. And he ends up, by the end of the war, he's a lieutenant colonel.
- [20:41]
James Holland
With a deer San bar.
- [20:42]
Al Murray
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he's. So again, he's done all this and he's brave, but he's a gunner. And the thing, you know, we have talked so much about how the Second World War, from the British point of view, is steel, not flesh. Gunnery leading the way. Well, is it any coincidence that the man who ends up chief of the Imperial General Staff, the man who's absolutely shaping how the British are going to fight, is a gunner? I don't think so. Right. It's no coincidence.
- [21:05]
James Holland
No, I completely agree.
- [21:06]
Al Murray
Yeah. That someone who understands this is how we won the First World War.
- [21:09]
James Holland
Yeah. I mean, make no mistake, he's not just a pen pusher. He is a guy who is basically drawing up how we beat the Axis forces. You know, the steel, not flesh. It's basically coming from him at the very top. And he's got his acolytes who agree with him, like Monty or whatever, or people who are going to turn the line. But that's why Monty's there, because he's Brooks. Matt.
- [21:28]
Al Murray
Yes. And his patronage matters enormously when he finally gets to the top. But he teaches again. All of these people, they go through Camilly. They. Most of the generals we will talk about have taught. There have been instructors there as well.
- [21:39]
James Holland
As the Ecole Super Guerre.
- [21:41]
Al Murray
Isn't that interesting? And then he's at the War Office and all this sort of stuff. Commands are again, Gunnery Aldershot Command. And it's about training and staff efficiency and all the. I mean, it sounds incredibly like axiomatic. Surely that's what you ought to be doing, is it being, you know, having insistence on rigorous training, meaning staff efficiency, marched a combined arms operation. You'd think that would be. Surely that's what everyone should be doing. But that's his reputation.
- [22:07]
James Holland
Corps commander in the B.F. in France, 1940, gets out, managed to withdraw. Okay. Then he's commander of Southern Command during the time of the Battle of Britain.
- [22:16]
Al Murray
Yeah. Which is about resisting invasion. And again then he's Commander in Chief, Home Forces, which is again, further development of that. Because the big topic, of course, after the Blitzkrieg is how do we fight tanks? How on earth do we do it? How do we beat the Panzers. There's all that discussion going on. He's central to that.
- [22:33]
James Holland
Well, actually, he's a combined arms expert as well. I mean, you know, he gets that package which is so vital.
- [22:38]
Al Murray
Yeah.
- [22:38]
James Holland
And then takes over as Chief of the Imperial general staff in December 1941, when Dill is posted as ambassador to.
- [22:45]
Al Murray
Washington and his job is to run the entire damn thing. I mean, it's quite extraordinary when you think about his responsibilities. And it's interesting, isn't it, that in an establishment where the Royal Navy has seniority in it essence, that it's a soldier that's in charge. That's Chief Imperial General Staff, isn't it?
- [23:02]
James Holland
Yeah. I mean, you know, obviously we've got it. We've got a few administrators. We've already talked about. Ronald Adam, you know, how do you compare. I mean, I know he was a fighting general at the start of the war, but how do you compare someone like him and say Eisenhower to a fighting commander, corps commander, an army commander, an army group commander. How do you compare them? You know, and I think that's the difficult thing here because, you know, clearly he's a. He's a brilliant man. He's a brilliant general. Does that make him the best general in the West? He's almost kind of above theaters. I mean, you know, he's best general in the war, I think the whole war. You know, maybe he. Maybe he's kind of more better considered to. Three years down the line. When we've done the war in the Far east, best generals, and then we've been through the worst generals, then maybe we can go back to the overall best generals of the war.
- [23:48]
Al Murray
If you're trying to do apples and apples, it's him and Marshall, isn't it, really?
- [23:51]
James Holland
Yeah. Their contributions, both of them, are just absolutely incalculable. But as battlefield commanders, I mean, I'm not sure.
- [23:57]
Al Murray
Well, we're gonna take a break. That's the first four which you tried to canter through. But you know what it's like on this podcast. If you're a regular listener, don't forget to go to the Patreon and vote. Let us know what you think and even the people that we've missed out, because I know they're gonna be people you think we missed out. And we will see you very, very shortly after this break.
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- [25:51]
Al Murray
Welcome back to we have ways of making you talk Best in the West Episode one. You know, we always try and resist top trumps, don't we, Jim? But here we are doing it for real.
- [25:59]
James Holland
You can't avoid it.
- [26:00]
Al Murray
And we want you to vote, please, everybody, to let us know what you think and so we can whittle it down. And then we have ways fest, which I'm sure you will all be attending. Please do. It's great fun for the weekend. And you can hear us duke it out to see who the best of the Duke generals is, which is what we're doing right now.
- [26:15]
James Holland
Then it'll all come together, won't it? For the best.
- [26:19]
Al Murray
Yes.
- [26:19]
James Holland
On a Sunday morning.
- [26:20]
Al Murray
Undisputed. Crowned champion World War Champion of the world. Okay, right now, a nickname that maybe belies a man of steel. We're now talking about General Sir Miles Bimbo Dempsey. Big fan. And then another Irishman, Captain Edward Dempsey and Annette Mary Dempsey. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting, isn't it?
- [26:43]
James Holland
Mindy, he's born in cheshire.
- [26:44]
Al Murray
Yeah. In 1896. Is a bit younger than some of the people we've been talking about. Sort of decade younger.
- [26:48]
James Holland
Yes, Much younger. Yeah.
- [26:49]
Al Murray
Shrewsbury School.
- [26:50]
James Holland
And I think the big thing about Dempsey is that he cool cucumber. He totally unflappable. He doesn't get in a state.
- [26:58]
Al Murray
Yes.
- [26:58]
James Holland
Fantastic temperament.
- [27:00]
Al Murray
Yep.
- [27:01]
James Holland
And a nice sense of humor as.
- [27:03]
Al Murray
Well, yeah, well, a known for your sort of incredible ability with maps. Anyway, he First World War, goes to his regiment in on the Western Front in 1916, Somm Aras Passchendaele, wounded twice a Military Cross and ends the war as a captain. So that's quite interesting, isn't it? Because that doesn't necessarily say how much further he might go after the war. And there's a whole load of people who are captains at the end of the First World War, I must be thinking, well that's if I'm going to stay in what's my career really now?
- [27:31]
James Holland
I think he's one of the ones where you wouldn't expect this at all. You know, it's just like who would you. Who would expect in 1990 to go on and kind of be senior commander in 20 years time? He's not going to be on your list for all his courage and all the rest of it.
- [27:44]
Al Murray
Yeah, interestingly he is. He serves in the Irish War of Independence in Ireland. Then he goes to the staff college at Camberley, which means his cards marked. And then, you know, this is a classic interwar British career, isn't it? Ireland, Staff College, Malta, India. Gradually ticking his way up the rank to battalion command, you know, gets his first battalion in 1938.
- [28:05]
James Holland
You know, Alexander is a General, Brooke is a corps Commander. He's a battalion commander.
- [28:10]
Al Murray
Yeah. It's interesting, isn't it? And then he's with the BEF of the Royal Barkshire Regiment, 1st Battalion and they fight back to Dunkirk again. It's a, it's a similar story. But basically he gets spotted, doesn't he, by the brook system.
- [28:22]
James Holland
Yeah.
- [28:22]
Al Murray
And is a Brigadier, 13th Infury Brigade and then he's sent to North Africa in 1942. And I think that's quite interesting that these obviously, because there's a lot of people who are battalion commanders in 1940, aren't they, who then end up in these roles. Horrocks for instance, is a battalion commander, isn't he, in 1940. These people who get picked up, get noticed, get up the ladder faster.
- [28:42]
James Holland
He performs spectacularly well in France. That's the point. Bump up two ranks in the summer of 1940.
- [28:47]
Al Murray
Yeah, it's going some. Yeah.
- [28:49]
James Holland
You know, you're well on the way, aren't you?
- [28:51]
Al Murray
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, particularly there isn't the churn of people at that point in the war, you know, being killed and needing to be replaced. So this is the sort of where they're reshuffling, aren't they? You Know, and picking their people. Again, this is the thing he's known for. Meticulous training and emphasis on combined arms coordination. It's kind of like.
- [29:07]
James Holland
Well, yeah, because you're not going to be still standing at the end of the war if you. If you can't do that. That's the point.
- [29:11]
Al Murray
Yeah, exactly, Exactly. But it's how these things sing. Like, truisms are axiomatic, you know, like, of course, that's what he's, you know, how else are you going to get on?
- [29:18]
James Holland
But he gets out to the Mediterranean, he gets out to North Africa, does well commanding a division, you know, and becomes out of nowhere because there's been so many divisional commanders and corps commanders, you know, Lumsden, Norrie, people like this, you know, who been and gone lease, you know, all these guys been and gone, got wounded, disappeared, got sacked, whatever. And then suddenly, by the end of the Tunisian. That's when you want to be peaking. You don't want to be peaking in 1941, you don't want to be peaking in the first half of 1942. You want to pick your moment. You want to be peaking when people are winning. And so suddenly, he's plucked out of Nowhere to command 13 Corps during operation Husky. Why is. Why is he, you know, why is he doing that? Because people like Horrocks have been wounded by this point quite badly, you know, so he's out of the fray. There's another potential corps commander is gone. Lyse has been moved across to 30 Corps.
- [30:06]
Al Murray
Yep.
- [30:06]
James Holland
Anderson is sort of, you know, he's been an army commander. He's not wanted anymore, so, you know, he's sent back. So it's not like he's last man standing, but of the next tier down, he's done enough to kind of make him stand out. And as I say, he's peaking at the right moment.
- [30:20]
Al Murray
And Monty really, really rates him, really trusts him, and is one of those people. He can ask him to do something and he knows how he's going to do it and he knows that they're completely simpatico in their method of war. Other things. Pca, Peter Cudding Adams, who said, you know, if you really want to look at how Monty does war, look at how Dempsey does war. It's him doing it.
- [30:35]
James Holland
It.
- [30:35]
Al Murray
Monty's in his TAC hq, being collegiate or whatever. It's Dempsey's actually having to make the thing stick, particularly in Normandy. That's what he ends up doing his second army. It takes the job in 1944, January 1944. And then it's. It's him that's doing the British Canadian landings all the way.
- [30:52]
James Holland
And you have to say, British Second army does a very, very, very good job in Northwest Europe from D day onwards, you know. Yeah. You can argue the toss about they didn't get to conn all the rest of it, but Second army performs brilliantly. There's enough stick, there's enough kind of drive. You can never accuse Dempsey of being overly cautious, but he's also clearly an operational commander. He's mindful of the lives of his men and does what he can, you know, so he gets that balance, I think, absolutely spot on. I think, you know, he's pretty good. And I think the British army by the end of the Second World War are really tip top.
- [31:24]
Al Murray
Yeah. And Dempsey is one of these people who doesn't get credit mainly because he's got a, let's say, a flashy boss who likes the attention.
- [31:32]
James Holland
Yeah. He's also a good coalition warfare commander as well. Gets on with people, gets on his American counterparts. You know, he's very easygoing, but he's meticulous, you know, and he doesn't suffer fools. And his very kind of affable impression kind of belies in a backbone of steel, really. I mean, he's very tough. Cookie Dempsey. Pretty impressive, to be honest.
- [31:49]
Al Murray
Okay, next. General Sir Richard Nelson. Windy gale. Yeah. Now. Okay.
- [31:55]
James Holland
Okay, over to you then, Al.
- [31:57]
Al Murray
Well, the reason Gail's in here is because we. We have over the years talked an awful lot about airborne warfare. And I think the interesting thing about airborne warfare is it's an absolute frontier. It's brand new. It's been. The British have grabbed it and the Americans as well, in reaction to what the germans achieve in 1940. They pick the brains of the Fausti BJ they've captured, blah, blah, blah. But there's one man on the British side of things who gets it, who understands it, and is the one guy who pulls off the landmark successful British airborne operation of the war, which is, after all, the Normandy landings, op, Tonga and all that sort of stuff. Wendy Gale's a fascinating guy. He's Anglo, Australian, Interestingly, born in 1896, grows up in Australia, New Zealand, comes back to England in 1906. So he's one of those sort of people that, you know these families who move around the Empire, you know, at that level. He's not particularly posh. He goes to King Edward VI school in Stratford Upon Avon. So he's not. Not, you know, this is. We've talked about a Lot of posh people and a lot of baronets and sons of baronets and that sort of thing, haven't we? Gail isn't one of those people. The First World War signs up. He's in the Worcester Worcestershire Regiment. He's in the Worcesters, but then he transfers the Machine Gun Corps. There's a story he tells about he thought he'd gone to something else, that he'd gone on a training course. He didn't realize he joined an actual new corps. But the Machine Gun Corps is one of these things where the British army is trying to figure out how to reply to or how to apply what the Germans are doing in machine guns themselves. So I think what's interesting about him in the First World War is that he's into innovation. He's into grasping new ways of doing.
- [33:24]
James Holland
Things and wins an mc.
- [33:25]
Al Murray
Yeah, he loses his nerve at one point and, you know, in his sort of summation of his careers, there's a moment where he kind of says, I, you know, I was worn out, I was done. So that's quite interesting. Between the wars, he's doing the same sort of thing where it's staff roles and keeping going. But Second World War, what's really. What's really interesting is Gale goes in and out of the War Office and Airborne Forces. He's there right from the start. He takes command of the 1st Parachute Brigade. So once they've stopped calling it Special, Special Air Service, and it's him that's in the War Office, fighting the Air Ministry tooth and nail to get this thing to work. It's him that decides what sort of people he wants. You know, you've got Browning running top cover, doing all the sort of networking, but it's Gail in there writing the doctrine. It's Gail in there picking officers like John Frost, picking people like James Hill, picking the sort of absolute legends of the airborne fraternity, Alistair Pierce and those guys. But in 1943, he's appointed major general, and this is when six airborne divisions formed whose task from its formation is to do the. You know, the flanking operation that will cover the edge of the Seabourne Landing in Normandy. We've talked a lot about it, but what he figures out is how to make this work. He figures out how to make it work with a shortage of aircraft. He figures out out that what he can do when he lands on the night of D day is nothing. Right? That he's got to let his brigadiers and his battalion commanders and his company commanders and his squadron commanders and troop commanders and all the way down to the bottom, he's got to let them get on with it before he starts making big decisions. And then he fights this really, really horrendous battle at Breville, locking off the Allied left flank and stopping the Germans taking the high ground, stopping the Germans being able to watch everything that's going on and, you know, fights with what is basically an assault force, ends up fighting a proper infantry scrap, an under resourced infantry scrap. And they fight with great vim and vigour. And I think Gale is the guy who does proof of concept of airborne operations, from raising battalions through to raising a division through to winning a battle. And they know how good he is because immediately, once Normandy's over, he's taken out that job and he's given something more important to do, which is keep things going on the airborne side and run things properly.
- [35:34]
James Holland
From a British Second World War. He's a standard, he's embodimentary of the evolution of modern warfare, isn't he?
- [35:39]
Al Murray
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
- [35:41]
James Holland
You know, from. From the trenches of the First World War to pioneering airborne operations, Second World War, you know, so.
- [35:46]
Al Murray
Exactly.
- [35:47]
James Holland
And he's a natural leader, isn't he? I mean, he's. He's a terrific fellow. Absolutely terrific.
- [35:50]
Al Murray
You know, they talk about him turning up at briefings and going, I am the best in the bloody business and you ought to know it, all that sort of thing. And. And some people thought, oh, God, what's all this? And others thought, no, he actually is, he actually is.
- [36:02]
James Holland
So we got one more to do in this episode. He didn't originally make the list, actually. And then we suddenly thought, hang on a minute. Yeah, he's got to be in it.
- [36:10]
Al Murray
Surely, because he doesn't make the list, because. So who we're talking about here is. He's got some excellent middle names as well. Yes, it's General Sir Percy Hobart, whose middle names are Cleghorn, Stanley Hobart, I mean, Foghorn, Cleghorn here. And he's born in India and he's an Indian army brat. His dad's an Indian army colonel. I think the thing, the most important thing to know about Hobart and Hobart's mindset is he's a Royal Engineer, he's a sapper, so he goes to Woolley and then he's a sapper and he's, he's a. He's a thinker, he's a. He's an intellectually curious guy, you know, and then he's got this garlanded career with the sappers in. Mainly in the siege of Kut he's involved in as well.
- [36:45]
James Holland
Yes, he is. Yes.
- [36:46]
Al Murray
But he's fought at Mons. He's, you know, he's all over the place. And then after the war, you know, joins the Royal tank corps in 1923. Thinks actually, this is the thing that I need to be headed towards. This is the coming warfare. I think that's really, really interesting because he sniffs the wind and sees the which way, which way warfare's gonna go. People will know about Hobart because of Hobart's funnies, that D Day contribution. But actually, this is a guy who raises 7th Armored Division.
- [37:11]
James Holland
Yep.
- [37:11]
Al Murray
Which is the Desert Force, or Desert Farce, as it's known when he takes it over in. In the Middle east, you know. And he's been the inspector of the Royal Tank Corps. He's been writing doctrine. It's. It's the infantry trunk and cruiser doctrine that comes from his thinking that it's him who's the biggest advocate for that. And some might say that's like kind of like the sort of millstone around British armored thinking's neck. That's his appraisal. You need a heavy, slow tank for the infantry to start stuff for the breakthrough, and then a cavalry tank for the breakout. That's doctrine that the British are still kind of digesting until the very end of the war when they end up with a main battle tank, you know, but.
- [37:42]
James Holland
But then he has this slight hiatus, doesn't it? It's bizarre having sort of, you know, done all this training, having been this great advocate of armored warfare, Having created the 7th Armored Division, he then gets recalled, removed from command based on the retired list. And this is largely because of disputes over doctrine and his abrasive style. But it's also for infidelities. And it.
- [37:59]
Al Murray
Well, yes. Well. So basically, when he's teaching at keta, and the thing about the KETA Staff College is everyone knows it's a sort of. It's a place where people go and have affairs and there's lots of shagging going on. It's known, it's renowned for it. But what he does is he has an affair with the wife of one of his students, one of the officers at the college. And then they get married. And the war office actually issue a memo saying anyone that does that ought to resign their commission. And he doesn't resign his commission. So he's got this. All his intellectual rigor and his approach to developing new doctrine and embracing modern warfare. He's got this black mark on him that he's basically a rotten. You know, he's a home wrecker or something. Right.
- [38:32]
James Holland
Yeah.
- [38:33]
Al Murray
In the Middle East, Wavell's wife doesn't like this and really doesn't like Hobart. And that causes him big problems.
- [38:40]
James Holland
Right.
- [38:41]
Al Murray
In the pre war period, where basically he's shuttled off there to get him out of. Out of London.
- [38:45]
James Holland
Well, yeah, he goes back retired from the army. He's done in 1941. So he then joins the Home Guard as a lance corporal.
- [38:52]
Al Murray
That's right, yeah.
- [38:53]
James Holland
Absolutely amazing.
- [38:54]
Al Murray
Churchill goes, hang on a minute. What about this Hobart bloke I've heard of, you know? Oh, he's a lance corporal, Home Guard now, sir. So he's brought back. They have these things called Tank Parliament. Churchill gets together with industrialists and Brooke and people like Hobart, and they talk about what they should do for armoured warfare and sort of argue it all out there with Churchill trying to sort of move it along. And then he's appointed to train 11th Armored, so the 7th Armored and 11th Armored Division, I think two of the sort of most famous armored divisions of the Second World War. In the British army, he raised the Djirbil is the seventh Armored from the desert years, the Desert Rats. So it's a pet that one of the officers had. And then the bull is Hobart's family crest. And then. But they think he's too old to command and they don't trust him because he's a shagger. Blotted his copy book, so he's not allowed to command 11th Armored. His sin is old and done. And then finally, Brook says, actually, you know What? We'll raise 79th Armored. We need a specialized armoured assault force. And this is the thing Hobart's known for. But the thing is, he has invented armored doctrine anyway, and then reinvents it all over again.
- [39:53]
James Holland
Yeah. Amazing, isn't it?
- [39:54]
Al Murray
Yeah. And I think the interesting thing about 79th Armored is they are the largest tank force in the world at the end of the Second World War. But they never fight as a division. They're never seen as that. They have something like 4,000 vehicles at the end of the war, something like that. But it's. It's all devolved. Everyone's trained to just turn up and go, what do you need me to do? You know, And a request will go in for some crocodiles or some flails or some, you know, avaris and all this sort of stuff. Bridge layers, all this sort of stuff. And it's all devolved. So 79th Armored Division, you know, if you read the Blackcock reports they are literally everywhere, but not as a division.
- [40:23]
James Holland
Yeah, it's amazing, isn't it?
- [40:24]
Al Murray
It's absolutely incredible. And he keeps track of all this, runs all this, and, you know, I think is crucial to the Allied victory in northwest Europe in 1944. 45. Yeah.
- [40:34]
James Holland
He's a visionary, isn't he? He's a visionary, a brilliant man. You know, creative thinking outside the box. I mean, you need these people.
- [40:41]
Al Murray
Yeah. Really good at. When he goes. Has to go to a cavalry regiment and go, by the way, chaps, you're not going to be swanning, you're going to be flailing or you're going to be punching holes in the sea wall. He's able to persuade them that that's actually what they want to do and that they are. They're going to be important because it's a difficult task that getting the cavalry people to think again about what their actual role will be isn't easy.
- [41:02]
James Holland
He's considered 20 years ahead of his time, isn't he?
- [41:04]
Al Murray
I mean, that's, I think, easily. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Here. Yeah.
- [41:06]
James Holland
So the first seven.
- [41:08]
Al Murray
So Adam, Alex, the orc. Brooke, Dempsey, Gail Hobart. That's the chaps we've done today. In our next episode, we'll be working our way through the next set of Duke Generals before we then advance onto our noble allies, United States of Americorps. So we'll see you for our next episode. And of course, if you become a patron or go to our Apple Officer Class Channel, you can listen to this without ads and all in one delicious load of Best in the west generals. But most importantly, go to the Patreon and vote.
- [41:38]
James Holland
Yes. Make sure you vote, people, Alexander.
- [41:43]
Al Murray
Except Monty. Anyway, we will see you next time. Thanks very much. Cheerio.
- [41:48]
James Holland
Cheerio.