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Al Murray
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Al Murray
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Al Murray
The look on his face shook me. It was the face of a man already dead. I'd known him as a vital man, alive and eager for anything. Now his eyes were dulled, his face gray, almost haggard, the sort of vacant, lifeless face you read about but never expect to see. He barely recognized me, although his mouth twitched automatically into the semblance of a grin and an arm lifted in a vague wave. It shocked me as nothing had done before, nor has done since. And that's Tom Gleave describing Eugene Esmond, the commanding officer of 825 Naval Air Squadron, on his way to his swordfish to take off at 12:25 on February 12, 1942.
James Holland
That doesn't sound very good, does it?
Al Murray
It doesn't sound good. And we are in for. I'm afraid we're in for an episode of that sort of thing. Welcome to we have ways of making you talk with me, Al Murray and James Holland as we come to part three of the Channel Dash, the Battle of the Narrow Seas.
James Holland
And this is proving difficult for me. I'm not going to lie. Tom Gleave, great man, actually, Battle of Britain veteran, but also was involved in writing the official histories.
Al Murray
This is no wilting violet of a fighter man. This is a man who knows aerial combat inside out. So for him to say that about Esmond I think is really quite telling. So here we are. This is Operation Cerberus versus Operation Fuller, the big showdown. Preparation versus improvisation. On the German side, meticulous planning. On the British side, not quite so
James Holland
meticulous, ridiculous planning, but in the wrong way.
Al Murray
Yeah, yeah. Well, what the Germans also do, they exercise very, very great and powerful operational secrecy, but everyone does actually know what they're doing, whereas the British operational secrecy and no one knows what they're doing. There's a lot of bad luck on the British side, as we saw in the first half of the sort of dash. The first sort of, first sort of 18 hours.
James Holland
Goddamn that cloud.
Al Murray
And also that fused radar set in. Pilot officers, Windsor's Hudson. The weather's getting a casting vote and everything, right?
James Holland
Yes. A little recap I think is important, don't you?
Al Murray
Yeah, I think so. So as we saw in the last episode, the capital ships, the battle fleet, the Scharnhorst, the Prinz Eugen and the Gneisenau left Brest at around 21:30 hours after sitting tight during an air raid.
James Holland
That was bad luck.
Al Murray
Yeah, I know. I mean, just even that the last recce plane goes over and sees them still in port rather than sees them having left. They're steaming full tilt for German waters. They sailed when the Admiralty has neither predicted nor prepared for. There is no contingency in place for basically the Germans being coming through the Straits of Dover in daylight. They haven't prepared that. No one.
James Holland
Because who would do that?
Al Murray
It makes no sense. No one has done this for centuries. It's too dangerous, it's too audacious, it's too impossible. But so far, Germans have gone unspotted. It's plain sailing even despite plenty of radar plots that morning. Confusion, poor communication in terms of hierarchy. And here's the thing, Jim. Leigh Mallory that morning is on ceremonial duties. Of course he is and will not be interrupted by a call from a group captain trying to alert him to the Channel dash.
James Holland
I mean, the thing is with Leigh Mallory is he just continues to dig himself into an ever deeper hole as far as I'm concerned. Every time I kind of, I think, oh, maybe I've been a bit harsh on him, something else comes to light that makes me think, nope, he really was crap.
Al Murray
After this series we're going to do a wash up for Patreon members and there's some extra Leigh Mallory fan red meat in that, in that episode, if that's what people fancy.
James Holland
And just saying that we have way best six, we will be doing the worst commanders in the west, worst in the West. And we're not limiting it to army.
Al Murray
I'm just saying that there's disjointed comms between the different commands within the RAF and between the Navy and the Royal Air Force. Overloaded phone lines. So the RAF and the ability haven't been able to see, let alone counter, the fleet that is literally sailing right under their noses. And what's interesting, the German fighter cover, the donuts of Messerschmitts and 109s over the. Over. The fleet has not attracted the attention it's due. They're just sort of going, well, they must. There's something funny going on. Maybe they're. Who knows? And the problem is, is Hitler, who said the British will be unable to respond to such surprise? He's right, but he hasn't. He didn't dare dream that the British would be this slack.
James Holland
Hitler being right also really hurts. I mean, you know, even if it's.
Al Murray
Even if it's probably for the wrong reasons. So Operation Fuller has been authorized around about 11:30 on the morning of February 12th.
James Holland
And Operation Fuller is pretty full on, isn't it? Let's face it, in theory, on paper,
Al Murray
lots of assets, right? The big guns at Dover.
James Holland
And they really are big guns.
Al Murray
Yeah, they really are big guns. But we'll get to the Gunnery 825 Naval Air Squadron, which is six Swordfish torpedo bombers which have been moved up from Leon Solent.
James Holland
Only six.
Al Murray
The rest are at Leon Solent. Right. But by the time.
James Holland
So it's a flight.
Al Murray
Yes, it's a flight. So what you've actually got is you've got a load more at Leon Solent, but they don't have the crews, they're understaffed and they just don't have the people. And also, doing 90 knots to catch a fleet sailing at 30 is actually quite a tall order. Swordfish's range isn't what it could be and all this sort of thing. This squadron, though, 825, has been reformed post the Bismarck action and is full of fresh crews. So Eugene Esmond, who we'll meet later on, who's in charge, has been bringing them up to speed. And we'll go have a proper look at Esmond later then. Coastal Command has three squadrons of Beauforts, one that's in Cornwall in case the Germans go round into the Atlantic and go around the long way. One in Scapa and one at RAF Coltischall, which is flown down that morning from RAF Leuckers as part of reorganisation in order to be on hand for the battle fleet. But there aren't any torpedoes at Coltishall because it's a fighter station. And there are Hudson's too, from Coastal Command. Bomber Command on paper has more than 200 aircraft, but the number's going to be more like 100 available to it. Wellingtons, Hudsons, Manchesters. And the idea is they're going to attempt to attack the battle fleet on the iff and when. Bomber Command have done really well, actually, against Brest, the bomber commander. The reason that Ciliax's fleet is fleeing the French port, you know, it's 25 raids in November, between November and January, this relentless stuff. But they no good against ships in motion. So a ship that maybe has struck a mine and is disabled, they'll be able to hit that. But you've got to find the ships, you've got to penetrate the fighter screen the flak and also you've got to have clear orders about where they are and what you're trying to achieve. Right. Which is an essential part of Operation Fuller. And then of course, Fighter Command under the command of friend of the Show Sholto Douglas 11 group under Trafford Lee Mallory, they're on hand to escort whatever's going to happen as long as they have clear orders and information about the sorties ahead of them. Basically, I'm getting my excuses in early. The Royal Navy, they've got motor torpedo boats at Dover with accompanying motor torpedo boats at Ramsgate, Destroyers to come out of Harwich as part of the Nor Command, which is one of those long gone Royal Navy commands named after Sandbank in the Thames Estuary.
James Holland
Well, I mean, the thing is, to have a command, you've got to have ships, haven't you?
Al Murray
Yes.
James Holland
It's not going mothballing them. You've got to have them active.
Al Murray
They've got to actually be active. You can't, you can't. I mean, these destroyers, they're all, they're all, they're not the latest kit, but they're not mothballed, they are at least active and they, they're all on sort of sea trials and exercise and stuff when this goes on. So they're actually at sea, so they've not got to sail from Harwich critically to the Fuller Plan. Many people think Dudley Pound, who's First Sea Lord, he's decided the Home Fleet will stay at Scapa Flow. He's not letting it out. They're concerned about the Tirpitz. They don't want the Tirpitz breaking out and, you know, maybe the Channel Dashes are faint to get the Tirpitz out there could be that possibility. And also there is fresh sensitivity to the danger of air power after the loss of the Prince of Wales in the Far East. That's what they're really really worried about. Even though the Japanese of course have a specialist anti shipping bomber team that did that. They're not fully up to speed that they're just really really worried about that. And of course which is at odds the fact the RAF know how hard it is to hit ships. But basically, you know, the blow to naval prestige is always in their mind just as Nelson's always in their mind Imperial naval prestige. Now though, we reach the point where Ciliax and his fleet have been spotted. The operational code word Fuller has been issued. Go, go, go. Let's do it Jim. Yep. Or rather well, yes.
James Holland
So 11:30 hours that morning, yeah. We met Wing Commander Bobby Constable Roberts. How could he be called anything else?
Al Murray
Can't be good at anything else.
James Holland
At Ramsey's headquarters in Dover who's already told the 825 Naval Air Squadron Swordfish to bomb up. And he explained his reasoning later. One, it was important to try to cripple the enemy as quickly as possible where it could be reasonable to expect large surface units to destroy him. Two, to have attacked with the Beauforts would have meant separate fighter escorts as the Swordfish could fly at not more than 90 knots while the Beauforts would have extreme difficulty in flying at less than 150 knots. For the swordfish it would have meant a two and a half hours flight under constant enemy fighter attack to reach enemy ships. Three casualties were a foregone conclusion and there was more chance of picking up survivors if the battle took place within a few miles of our shores. What you think the British war effort is made of, Captain Mannerings? No sir. I mean do you remember Toby's signal before Bismarck?
Al Murray
Yeah.
James Holland
You know, forgot to lose a battleship, we've got to lose a battleship.
Al Murray
So at noon Vice Admiral Otto Ciliax decides that as they're approaching the Dover Straits and haven't been attacked yet. Right. They might as well make smoke. Why not? They've done 360 miles unmolested, they've got 200 to go. They've been joined by the flotillas that have come down from Zeebrugge of S boats and stuff. And so with the destroyers the fleet is quite the target. Right. Although actually this will present a problem in itself because there's so many enemy vessels in this flotilla. At 12:15 Admiral Ramsay signals odd measures
James Holland
prepared in my command to counter the enemy move have been put into operation. But the Germans are at the Calais Dover line already.
Al Murray
Yeah. Incredible.
James Holland
Holy moly. So Ramsey has got two means of launching torpedoes at the battle fleet, the mtbs at Dover. This is the motor torpedo boats, the so fast ones that can do 30 knots more than that up to nearly 40 knots and 825 Naval Air Squadron at Manston. But it's not a squadron, as we said, it's only six Swordfish. It's two sub flights, isn't it? And the latter, as we've already been discussing, have been tipped off and are girding their loins accordingly, feeling sick inside and knowing that this is a flight they're unlikely to return from.
Al Murray
Yeah, exactly. We keep talking about the Navy and the Royal Air Force. It's time for the army to roll up its sleeves and get involved. Here it's core command, coastal artillery. Brigadier Rawl of 4 Corps who has coastal artillery guns and the enemy are now known as plot E29D. This is the plot that was first logged at 1050 hours at Fairlight in Hastings and then Liddon's spout. Report it at 11:29. This is the plot they've now decided on is the surface fleet. So Ramsey orders Rawl, who's at Dover Castle, to engage.
James Holland
And presumably at this point, you know, everyone's going to what this? You know, we're so prepared, we were so ready for this. And this is just absolutely crazy. How can this be, do you think? There's a bit of kind of, you know, heads going a bit kind of.
Al Murray
Oh, completely. I mean, the thing is, afterwards there's a lot of finger pointing, but basically there's this kind of complete funk descends over everybody and they end up in a some of their fears situation. I mean, so the Dover defenses do open fire. We'll get to that. The men are on a training drill when the orders come to engage. So they're at the guns, the guns report they're ready at 12:03, so pretty much, pretty much straight away. So the radar at Lyddensbow has the ship's plot, as we said, E29D. And then the guns have got a 10 centimeter K type radar which hasn't got such a long range and that starts looking for them. And at 12:15 hours. So 12 minutes after they're ready, they've got a fix. And that Radar's range is 32,000 yards. Right. And it picks them up at 32,000 yards, which is Just outside the gun's range. But it means they're coming into range. They're going to be right under the guns.
James Holland
Oh, okay, good.
Al Murray
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So this should, this should, this should square off. Right? It's the south foreland battery. It's four 9.2-inch Mark 10 guns. They have an effective range of 31,500 yards, which is 17.9 miles.
James Holland
Jeez.
Al Murray
Yeah, I know. These are powerful pieces of ordnance.
James Holland
Can I just make a point? Isn't this the whole point of Guns of Navarone?
Al Murray
Yeah.
James Holland
That you can't sail under naval, you know, coastal guns?
Al Murray
Yeah. Yes. This is a reverse Guns of Navarone situation.
James Holland
How can they possibly escape from this trap?
Al Murray
And what we don't have is a German David Niven slitting the throats of various people in the magazine at the South Fallen battery.
James Holland
No. So they haven't got a problem.
Al Murray
Here's the other thing. There are even bigger guns at Wanston. 15 inch naval style guns. Right. But these are no good for moving targets. They traverse too slowly. They can't lay those guns onto shipping. Right. They're good for lobbing shells over the Channel, but not for. Not for what we got here. So it's down to the lads at South Foreland, 1219 hours. They fire first half a half salvo, but the problem is summed up as the bearing was erratic due to the lack of target discrimination. In other words, it's such a big radar base, this big flotilla, that they can't pick a target out from the mass of ships.
James Holland
What's wrong with Binase?
Al Murray
Well, visibility five miles, James, so they're firing essentially blind on radar. Fan Bay, Langdon and the Breakwater Fort, the six inch positions. They fire as well. And as far as they can tell, the rounds splash short of the German column. As far as they can tell. But they can't tell. There's poor weather. Heavy smoke from the Escorts as well. Cloud obscures the line of sight and essentially no accurate fall of shot is recorded. So they don't even know how much they're missing by. Right. And the core problem here, the plotting the guns with the radar, is there's too many signals coming from the fleet's image and also the radar's new. They have never tried to do this before. They have never tried to lay guns on and judge the shot purely by radar location. Just not been done. And without eyes on, it can't be done. Right, so the station log starts at 1228 hours. Corps Commander, Coastal Artillery decided that as no Fall of shot had been observed. The battery should fire four gun salvos without waiting for fall of shot observations. Orders given to this effect. 12:30 hours. Battery Salvo additional thousand yards added as no fall of shot observed. And they stop at 12:52. They fired 33 rounds. No hits recorded. Little wonder they're firing blind. So that's. That's the army's contribution, Jim.
James Holland
I'm also thinking, why in the guns of Davarone don't they just make smoke and go free? Save me from horrible.
Al Murray
As we've seen, radar plotting is difficult, but I mean, it's. This enormous flotilla is making it harder. But basically they're trying something they've never, never done before.
James Holland
Well, it's hard not to feel a little deflated, isn't it?
Al Murray
Yes, exactly. And this, this gunnery also attracts the attention of some Stukas, which rock up to strike near and disrupt British observation posts. And there's counter battery fire from the Germans because they know where the guns are.
James Holland
And they've got those French guns, haven't they? Which they captured in 1940. Don't forget our old friend the Prinz Eugen. You know, they've been watching shells aimlessly sploshing into the ocean, you know, behind them. The gunnery commander called vetocapitain Paulus remarks. Well, that wasn't much, was it? Smug bastard. Anyway, so now we're getting down to the. Now we're getting down to it, aren't we? Should we take a break now before we do that?
Al Murray
Yeah, why not? Let's take a break before the fleet air arm intervene. We'll see you in a tick.
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Al Murray
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Al Murray
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Al Murray
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Al Murray
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Al Murray
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Al Murray
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Al Murray
Welcome back to we have Ways of Making youg Talk With Me, Al Murray and James Holland. I gotta say, Jim, Corvette and Capitaine Paulus saying, well, that wasn't much, was it? I mean, if this was the, the other way around, if the boot was on the other foot and that was a British gunnery commander, you'd be, you'd be patting him on the back for stoicism, wouldn't you?
James Holland
Yeah, yeah, but that's the key point you've just made. If the boot was on the other foot, I mean, it isn't. He's German and he's getting away with it. And it's my, my hackles have been raised.
Al Murray
Now on this show. We, we, I think it's fair to say we are absolute die hard fans of the Fleet Air Arm. We think that they're certainly. Their first phase of the war efforts are absolutely extraordinary. I've got everything in them you could possibly want. Drama, guts, grit, tactical and strategic effect. The odd cock up like trying to sink the Sheffield.
James Holland
Basically. These guys are tops.
Al Murray
They're tops. And they're getting in an aeroplane that by this phase of the war, and certainly against German fighter cover, this is an extremely short straw to have drawn to be flying Swordfish in daylight. Across the Channel, Bertrand Ramsay has been in agonies about ordering the Swordfish attack because he knows he's ordering the crews to their deaths because it's daylight and he knows that they've been preparing for a nighttime attack and that's the only way the Swordfish are going to possibly be effective. So he asks Constable Roberts, Wing Commander Bobby Roberts, to talk to Esmond and say to him that it's up to him whether he wants to go ahead with the attack or not.
James Holland
Oh, God. But that's a terrible thing to say because, you know, Esmond can't say no, can he?
Al Murray
No, no, he can't. And Esmond says he'll go ahead anyway. It's his duty.
James Holland
Oh, God. He said no, that, that's such a terrible, terrible thing to do.
Al Murray
Yeah, yeah. And it might feel like the right thing to do. And these are brand new crews. Most of them are on their first sortie, I think, so.
James Holland
That's terrible.
Al Murray
So Ramsay then calls Dudley Pound, asking permission not to have to give the order to Esmond and his men. And Pound responds, the navy will attack the enemy whenever and wherever he is to be found. So that's it. Their fate's sealed. It's not a suicide mission as such, Jim, but it's a suicide mission. Right?
James Holland
Yeah, I. I'm not a fan of Dudley Pound. I think he's going to be on that list as well.
Al Murray
But given. But here's the thing, right? Make no mistake, this is the one part of the. Of the Fuller Plan that really is completely vulnerable to the daylight switch that the Germans have forced onto the Fuller Plan. Because, let's be honest now, they're not doing the Fuller Plan because the Fuller Plan's geared for night. So they're not doing Fuller. Fuller's gone out the window completely. This is some improvised thing. This is the part where they should be able to go, no, we're sucking it off.
James Holland
This is a terrible, terrible thing to do, to say to Esmond, well, it's up to you. You don't have to go. What's that sketch? I mean, it is that sketch, isn't it?
Al Murray
Yes. You see, we need. At this stage of the war, we need a futile jester. Get up over Germany, take your guide above Germany and don't come back. 825 Naval Air Squadron 6 Fairey Swordfish Mark 2 biplane. So the Mark 2 is a bit more powerful.
James Holland
Yeah, but you're splitting hairs, aren't you? I mean, it's a Swordfish.
Al Murray
They're due a 10 aircraft Spitfire Escort from 72, 124 squadrons, but it's scattered by heavy cloud. Only part of the escort arrives.
James Holland
Question here. What the heck is the rest of Fighter Command doing?
Al Murray
Well, they're all waiting for orders.
James Holland
Okay, why. Why don't you scramble 15 squadrons just
Al Murray
to attack the fighter cover? I don't know, Jim. You do the escorting, but you also aggressively assault.
James Holland
This is your chance to have your fight, your air combat. This is your chance to use your superiority to shoot down German planes.
Al Murray
No, Jim, not. Not today.
James Holland
What the heck?
Al Murray
Leigh Mallory's got to do some inspections this morning. Anyway, let's talk about Eugene Esmond, though. Let's look into him because. Because he is one of the. He's one of the cast iron characters of this story. So he's. He was born on March 1st, 9thurgoland, Yorkshire. He's of Irish nationalist heritage. He's one of 10 children for Dr. John Joseph Esmond and Eile O', Sullivan, and they are Irish nationalists. He was educated by Jesuits, Stonyhurst College in Lancashire. So, you know, he's got duty, discipline and faith running right through him.
James Holland
I would question the commitment to their Irish nationalism.
Al Murray
Well, yes, because he joins the Royal air Force in 1928.
James Holland
Well, and goes to Stonyhurst College, you know, a bastion of the empire and all the rest of it.
Al Murray
But he's an Irishman. He's an Irishman. And I think when we talked about, I mean, it was many, many podcasts ago when we talked to Joseph Quinn about who's joining the various British services in between the wars and why Irish people are going in, I think it's quite interesting that he fits into that picture. So he joins in 1928, becomes a fighter pilot. He flies aerobatics at Hendon with 43 Squadron, not unlike Douglas Barda with 29 Squadron. You know, those great, those great air shows where they'd all fly and sync together.
James Holland
They're called an air pageant.
Al Murray
That's right. It's all they can think to do with their fighters at the time. In 1931, that squadron is flying Hawker Furies, which is quite the machine. But Esmond has been transferred to RAF Gosport to join the nascent Fleet Air Arms. So he becomes a naval man. Gosport is set up for carrier landing training, torpedo attack methods, and it's also part of the Royal Navy's effort to redigest Air Force men into the Navy because the, the original Royal Naval Air Service was, was swallowed up by the Royal Air Force when it was formed in 1918. And this is the Navy's effort to draw out its own strand. And, you know, this is well ahead of time having aircraft carriers. This is cutting edge stuff.
James Holland
Yes.
Al Murray
He's posted to Courageous. She's been recommissioned and she's, she's part of the Home Fleet. So this is the air people in the Royal Navy getting their way, which we talked about when we talked about the Fleet Air army before Taranto. And she is create one of courageous jobs. And we talked about how in the Bismarck series about how the Hood's job is to go around advertising British power, showing British hard power and technical industrial might all over the world. That's Courageous, his job. And she goes around the world showing off how incredible carriers are and that, you know, planes landing and they do it, they do it for people to See planes landing on the carrier and it's all very sexy. At the time he's flying the Blackburn Dart which is a rather.
James Holland
Yeah, it looks like a Bulldog.
Al Murray
It's an ugly plane.
James Holland
It looks like a sort of squat and kind of stub nosed and not very attractive.
Al Murray
Yeah. He clashes with his boss and this is a. Esmond is a single minded man, sticks to his guns and. But during his time with the fleet, this time with the Fleet Air Arm, he develops a reputation for being a truly brilliant flyer and the best off and on man in the Royal Navy. So he's the best carrier landing guy of all. When his time with the fleet air on end, there's no job for him in the raf. He can't get a permanent job as a pilot.
James Holland
Is that because he's an Irish national?
Al Murray
Yeah, yeah. And he's not a Cranwell guy? You know, he's not. You know, this is the same time as they're trying to keep Barda in the RAF when he's got no legs.
James Holland
Right.
Al Murray
So he goes into the RAF Volunteer Reserve, a reserve at the end of 1933. But he has to find work as a pilot and in his last six months he gets time on every type he possibly can, particularly multiple engine types. So then has a job with Imperial and flies for its subsidiary Indian Transcontinental Airways.
James Holland
But he's a nationalist. He's an Irish nationalist.
Al Murray
Yeah, I know. Look, it's work.
James Holland
Mine's got to work, right?
Al Murray
Yeah. And he's a brilliantly skilled pilot, vastly experienced and when he comes back to the Fleet air Arm in 1939, he has 5550 hours in his logbook. I mean, wow.
James Holland
Wow. So can I suggest that the Royal Navy wrap him up in kid gloves and make sure that they use him and his vast experience to the maximum capability.
Al Murray
I think what they should do is build a, build a training school around him where he teaches people how to become the best off and on types the Royal Navy could possibly have. These warbirds of liberty boys that were your American pin ups. Here's an all Irish hero for you. He's a shot fella.
James Holland
Yeah.
Al Murray
There's a fantastic picture of him with the other Fleet Air Arm officers in their white socks, shorts, trousers, shirt combo that they wore.
James Holland
Yes. No, he's, he's an attractor. He's got an attractive face, a twinkly face, hasn't he? With, you know, he looks like a smiley, good humoured, genial fellow.
Al Murray
Yeah. In 1941 he's commanding 825 Squadron again on Victorious. And of course, May 24th, after the Hood goes down his nine swordfish in the disgusting weather in the North Atlantic, they go out to strike the Bismar, and unsuccessfully. But he's gazetted with a DSO in July 1941, and he picks that DSO up the day before the Channel dash
James Holland
when it's all smiles.
Al Murray
Yeah, he's come back from London that morning with his dso, with his ribbon. Right. They've been rerouted to Manston, as we said. They've been redeployed at Manston because Victorious has gone off. An 825 Squadron's being reformed and they've now moved to Manston. And of course, if there's German fighters in the. In the picture, this is a different kettle of fish, right? Anyway, at 1225 hours, they set off. There's meant to be two squadrons of Spitfires. The actual escort when they arrive is 10 Spitfires. The majority been misrouted. The weather works against them. It's a difficult business because the Swordfish fly so slowly that, you know, the Spitfires have to sort of do funny loops and fly with their flaps down. And let's go through these crews because just say their names. Yeah. Eugene Edsman's in H, followed by swordfish L W5907, piloted by Charles M. Pat Kingsmill, whose crew is Sub Lieutenant R. Matt Mc Samples, who's his obs, and leading airman DA Don Bunce, who's his telegraphist air gunner. Swordfish G is skippered by Sub Lieutenant Brian Rose with Edgar F. Lee, who will sp. See in a bit, and leading Airman Al Ginger Johnson. And the second subflight. And these are all. These are all new guys. Lt. J.C. thompson is in Swordfish F with his obs R.L. parkinson leading M and E. Topping is his tag. Behind him becomes Swordfish K with Sub Lieutenant CR Timber Wood. I mean, come on, Timberwood. Sub Lieutenant EH Fuller. Wright is his observer. Leading Airman Wheeler is his tag. And this last four swordfish to leave is M W5978, captained by Sub Lieutenant Peter Bligh, who had won his flight with a toss of a coin. Because there are seven pilots in naval. In 825 Naval Air Squadron and six Swordfish. So when the moment comes, as I say, they toss a coin and Sub Lieutenant Bligh calls and wins and Bennett stays behind.
James Holland
Damn it. You lucky blighter. You're going to go to your immediate
Al Murray
death, heads or tails.
James Holland
I mean, I would say that's losing, isn't it?
Al Murray
Surely you'd think, but, you know, for the honour. Esmond leads his formation at very low altitude through the heavy flak towards the German ships near Cap grisne at around 1320 hours. So it takes the best part of an hour to get there. Huge swirl of fighter planes.
James Holland
Of course there is.
Al Murray
Galland has prepared this cover for them. They buzz around them. Vast flak response. Fighter planes coming in with their undercarriage down, their flaps deployed in order to hit the Swordfish.
James Holland
That's amazing, isn't it?
Al Murray
Yep, because you come over a couple hundred knots like that, you know, and that's until you figure out how to do it. British Spitfires, they do what they can to draw the 109s and 190s off, but it's too much. 825 Naval Air Squadron is doomed.
TV Show Promoter
Right.
Al Murray
The lads who come from Horn Church never see the Swordfish. They've been sent to escort. So there's this aircraft. Aircraft.
James Holland
Never seen them at all.
Al Murray
Never see him. Esmond leads this first sub flight. Lee is the observer in the plane behind him, and he's our witness, basically flown by Sub Lieutenant Rose. They watch Esmond going in even as the rear gunner in his own plane, in Lee's plane, even as he is killed. Ginger Johnson has killed a fighter coming through.
James Holland
Okay, so they are killed by fighters.
Al Murray
Yeah, he's got blood all over him. So the various eyes on. And Lee's our primary witness and Kingsmill say that Esmond's aircraft, they're trying to maintain formation. His plane seems to be badly hit. Before descending to launch its torpedo. The left wing comes away and Esmond, they see Esmond hit by machine gun fire, killed by machine gun fire by a pair of 109s, which are flown by Leutnant Egon Meyer of Jagischwader 2 Richthofen and his wingman Feldwebel Willis Strachmann. The left wing comes off and his plane crashes into the sea. And what's interesting is a couple of decades later in accounts, people say they see him get his torpedo away.
James Holland
But that seems unlikely, doesn't it?
Al Murray
Yeah, exactly. The reports for the next couple of days don't confirm this, they say, but they basically say this is horrendous. Sky's full of fire. Swordfish are torn apart.
James Holland
Yep.
Al Murray
You know, and one of the things about the Swordfish, because of fabric, it can take the odd hit, but not this much. So then Rose and Lee are shot down. Lee manages to get the dinghy out, get his injured pilot into it, and the Gunner goes down with the shattered plane.
James Holland
So Pat Kingsmill, he's in Swordfish L, isn't he?
Al Murray
Yeah. And he says go on, Jim.
James Holland
We were still flying straight towards the enemy and a plane becoming more difficult to handle with every second. I never grasped then just how smashed up we were. We'd been riddled in dozens of places. There was a huge splash in the sea close by. They were throwing their big stuff at us now, laying 11 inch shells in our path, hoping to smash us down before we reach the firing distance. Now we must be almost there. I wrenched at the controls, brought the tattered Swordfish into firing position. Looming out of the mist was one of the target ships, the Prinz Eugen, which looked enormous somehow. I lined the plane up against her. Everything was so confused I cannot even remember pressing the torpedo release. But with the torpedo gone, we stood some chance of getting out in one piece. The controls were dreadfully sluggish but I brought the Swordfish around and yelled for samples to give me a course back. As I came round and away I had a fleeting glimpse of the second flight just above me heading for the welter of fire as I was trying to leave. Crikey. So then the second sub flight including yeah, including the pilot who'd won the toss to go, Sub lieutenant Bligh are also shot down and destroyed as they press in their attack. Thirteen crew are killed and of the six survivors only two are unhurt.
Al Murray
Liam Bunce, who'd been in Kingsmill's plane. Basically there's nothing's known of the second sub flight. No one saw it, no one survived from it. They're all gone. And Esmond is gazetted on 21 April 1942 with the Victoria Cross. But basically we'll tell the story of his Victoria Cross in our wash up for which will be up on the Patreon. But what you got to know is a Victoria Cross. What does that tell us, Jim?
James Holland
It's all going really badly wrong. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, you know.
Al Murray
Yeah. Arnhem, you know. And this is the Fleet RM Air Arm only have two Victoria Crosses from the war and this is one of them. Celiax or is it the captain Hoffman. There's some disagreement remarked it went into silly Ax's diary but no one's quite sure who may have said it. Those Swordfish did well to get their torpedoes away. The English are throwing their mothball navy at us now apparently that's the Fleet Air Arm attack gone wrong.
James Holland
Smug bastard.
Al Murray
What next for Operation Fuller or rather what is also going on at the same time, because everything is happening everywhere all at once. And join us for our next episode as the battle of the narrow seas continues. Subscribe to our Patreon, become a member, and you can enjoy the full juice of this disaster as it plays itself out.
James Holland
Well, I mean, I. Personally, I think we need a break because I need to just calm down a little bit. I'm. I'm feeling quite upset.
Al Murray
We'll see you soon. Thanks for listening.
James Holland
Cheerio.
Al Murray
Cheerio. Close your eyes. Exhale. Feel your body relax. And let go of whatever you're carrying today.
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Al Murray
And breathe.
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Al Murray
1-800-contacts.
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Al Murray
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Podcast: WW2 Pod: We Have Ways of Making You Talk
Hosts: Al Murray & James Holland
Episode: The Channel Dash: The Battle of The Narrow Seas (Part 3)
Date: March 10, 2026
This episode continues Al and James's deep dive into the dramatic events of the "Channel Dash"—Operation Cerberus—the daring February 1942 breakout of the German battleships Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, and cruiser Prinz Eugen from Brest through the English Channel. With trademark wit and detailed research, the hosts unpack the British response, examining in detail the failures of Operation Fuller and the tragic heroism of the Swordfish crews. The episode’s tone is one of incredulity, frustration, and deep respect for those who paid the ultimate price.
[01:33]
[02:28]
[04:16]
[04:46]
[06:16]
[07:27 – 10:23]
[09:04]
[11:28]
[12:49–17:21]
Coastal artillery at Dover (South Foreland battery, 9.2-inch guns) attempts to target the German fleet using newly installed radar and plotting—but is ultimately stymied by weather, smoke, technical inexperience, and the inability to discriminate targets.
33 shells fired; no hits scored. German commander’s reaction is one of smug satisfaction.
[14:56] James brings up “Guns of Navarone” in comparison—the Germans have essentially braved exactly the situation the movie is based on, in reverse.
[20:25–22:12]
[23:01]
[29:03–30:48]
[31:10–34:35]
The six Swordfish (with scant Spitfire escorts due to weather and miscoordination) approach the entire might of the Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine.
German fighters (109s and 190s) ravage the Swordfish—Esmond’s machine is seen hit and destroyed; only scattered survivors emerge.
Out of 18 men, 13 are killed; of 6 survivors, only 2 are unhurt. Esmond is later awarded the Victoria Cross posthumously.
German command remarks on the British desperation:
[01:33] Al Murray
"The look on his face shook me. It was the face of a man already dead… It shocked me as nothing had done before, nor has done since."
(Reading Tom Gleave on Esmond – setting the tone of tragedy.)
[04:16] Al Murray
"It makes no sense. No one has done this for centuries. It's too dangerous, it's too audacious, it's too impossible."
(On the Germans' unprecedented move.)
[04:46] James Holland
"Leigh Mallory...every time I think maybe I've been harsh on him, something else comes to light that makes me think, nope, he really was crap."
[12:49] James Holland
"And the latter, as we've already been discussing, have been tipped off and are girding their loins accordingly, feeling sick inside and knowing that this is a flight they're unlikely to return from."
[14:56] James Holland & Al Murray
"Isn't this the whole point of Guns of Navarone?...This is a reverse Guns of Navarone situation."
[20:47] Al Murray
"We are absolute diehard fans of the Fleet Air Arm...drama, guts, grit, tactical and strategic effect..."
[21:34] James Holland
"But that's a terrible thing to say because, you know, Esmond can't say no, can he?"
[22:12] James Holland
"I'm not a fan of Dudley Pound. I think he's going to be on that list as well."
(Of worst Allied commanders)
[23:04] Al Murray
"They're due a 10 aircraft Spitfire Escort...but it's scattered by heavy cloud. Only part of the escort arrives."
[30:48] Al Murray
"...when the moment comes, as I say, they toss a coin and Sub Lieutenant Bligh calls and wins and Bennett stays behind."
(Joking gallows humor: “Damn it, you lucky blighter. You're going to go to your immediate death, heads or tails.”)
[33:21] James Holland (Pat Kingsmill’s account)
"We were still flying straight towards the enemy and a plane becoming more difficult to handle with every second...I lined the plane up against her. Everything was so confused I cannot even remember pressing the torpedo release..."
[35:05]
"A Victoria Cross? What does that tell us, Jim?"
"It's all going really badly wrong."
(On the futility and sacrifice of the attack.)
Al and James conclude with emotional exhaustion and outrage at the futility and error-strewn British response, contrasting strategic ineptitude with the fearlessness and devotion of the Swordfish crews. The episode closes as a somber tribute to the fallen—highlighting not just military blunders but also remarkable human courage in the face of near-certain death.
The saga continues in the next episode, where Al and James will track the further unfolding disaster of Operation Fuller and its failed attempts to thwart the Channel Dash.