Summary of WW2 Pod: We Have Ways of Making You Talk – "The Duel: The Fox That Outlived Them All (Part 2)"

Release Date: December 12, 2024

Hosts: Comedian Al Murray and Historian James Holland

Introduction

In the second part of "The Duel: The Fox That Outlived Them All," hosts Al Murray and James Holland delve deeper into the intricate and tumultuous final days of World War II, focusing on the rivalry between two high-ranking SS officers: Karl Wolff and Ernst Kaltenbrunner. This episode unpacks their maneuvers, negotiations with the Allies, and the eventual outcomes that marked the end of the Nazi regime.

Karl Wolff’s Negotiations and Challenges

Negotiation Attempts and Risks

Karl Wolff, a top SS officer, saw an opportunity to negotiate an unconditional surrender of German forces in Italy through Operation Sunrise. His objective was to end hostilities swiftly, potentially saving countless lives.

• James Holland [02:04]: “He has managed to save a lot of his men. They won't go to Siberia or to the Balkans or to North Africa or heaven knows where else.”

However, Wolff's clandestine efforts were fraught with peril. Despite promising significant benefits, his negotiations placed him in a precarious position both with the Nazis and the Allies.

Encounter with Himmler and Kaltenbrunner

On March 24, 1945, Wolff was summoned by Heinrich Himmler to Berlin, where he met Ernst Kaltenbrunner. This meeting was tense, as Inverness authorities suspected Wolff of treason.

• Karl Wolff (Quote) [02:04]: “I am not in the least interested in Herr Kaltenbrunner. Whoever goes on fighting now is the greatest of war criminals.”

Himmler's conflicted nature and reluctance to act decisively allowed Wolff some leeway. However, the growing pressure from both the Allies and internal Nazi dynamics meant Wolff had to navigate carefully.

The Prominente Hostage Plot

Kaltenbrunner’s Gambit

Ernst Kaltenbrunner devised a plan to hold prominent prisoners—referred to as the "Prominente"—as hostages to strengthen his bargaining position.

• James Holland [17:31]: “He’s gathered them together from various camps... including people like the former French Prime Minister, Leon Bloom, and Admiral Miklos Horthy of Hungary.”

These hostages included high-profile figures from various nationalities, making the plot particularly dangerous and complex.

Escape Attempts and Internal Conflict

Amidst the chaos, some high-ranking German officers, such as General Jörg Thomas and General Bogislaw von Bonin, attempted to defy the Nazi orders by seeking surrender or escaping, further destabilizing the situation.

• James Holland [19:33]: "He's the architect of the Blitzkrieg... General Jörg Thomas, who's the architect of the Hunger Plan."

The Surrender in Italy

Negotiation Breakthrough

Despite numerous setbacks, Wolff persisted in his negotiations with the Allies. His diplomatic skills eventually led to the signing of the first unconditional surrender by German troops in Italy on April 29, 1945.

• James Holland [44:20]: "They go and allow 48 hours for the news to be relayed to all the German people and pro-Axis battalion forces in Italy."

Final Confrontations and Surrender

Wolff's resilience culminated in the formal surrender ceremony held in Reggio, marking a significant step towards the end of the war in Europe.

• James Holland [44:51]: “Just sign the darn thing.”

However, internal power struggles within the Nazi hierarchy, particularly involving Field Marshal Kesselring, threatened to undermine these surrender efforts.

Aftermath and Fates of Key Figures

Ernst Kaltenbrunner’s Downfall

Kaltenbrunner's plot unraveled as Allied forces closed in. He was captured, tried for war crimes, and ultimately executed in 1946.

• James Holland [56:07]: "For him, the game is up."

Karl Wolff’s Survival and Legacy

Unlike Kaltenbrunner, Karl Wolff managed to evade immediate capture. Post-war, he lived a relatively peaceful life, though his involvement with the Nazis caught up with him during later trials.

• James Holland [58:00]: "He was released in 1947... convicted in the Eichmann trial in 1962 but managed to wriggle free again."

Wolff's ability to navigate post-war Germany highlighted his cunning nature but also left a controversial legacy.

Other Prominent Figures

The episode also touches upon other significant individuals, such as Max Webel, who played crucial roles in mediating between Wolff and the Allies, and various high-profile prisoners held by Kaltenbrunner.

• James Holland [36:24]: “General Joerg Thomas...sharing a room with General Alexander von Falkenhausen.”

Conclusions and Reflections

Al Murray and James Holland reflect on the chaotic and often absurd final months of World War II, emphasizing the desperate measures taken by Nazi officials to preserve their power. The rivalry between Wolff and Kaltenbrunner serves as a microcosm of the broader disintegration of the Nazi regime.

• Al Murray [60:02]: “The champ is Wolf, who absolutely does. He plays the cards he's got and then the ones he's subsequently dealt.”

The episode underscores the complexities of wartime negotiations, the perilous nature of loyalty within totalitarian regimes, and the intricate dance between survival and morality in the face of impending defeat.

Notable Quotes

• Karl Wolff [05:19]: “I feel in no way bound to obedience to Herr Kaltenbrunner. Whoever goes on fighting now is the greatest of war criminals.”

• James Holland [22:22]: “Just sign the darn thing.”

• Al Murray [60:02]: “The champ is Wolf, who absolutely does. He plays the cards he's got and then the ones he's subsequently dealt.”

Final Thoughts

"The Duel: The Fox That Outlived Them All (Part 2)" presents a gripping narrative of power, betrayal, and survival within the waning days of the Third Reich. Through engaging dialogue and detailed historical analysis, Al Murray and James Holland illuminate the lesser-known facets of Nazi leadership and their attempts to negotiate peace, ultimately revealing the futility and desperation that characterized their final actions.

For those intrigued by the intricate dynamics of World War II's endgame, this episode offers a comprehensive and enthralling exploration of pivotal moments and figures that shaped the conclusion of one of history's most devastating conflicts.