The Duel: The Fox That Outlived Them All (Part 2)

Summary

Summary of WW2 Pod: We Have Ways of Making You Talk – "The Duel: The Fox That Outlived Them All (Part 2)"

Release Date: December 12, 2024

Hosts: Comedian Al Murray and Historian James Holland

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Introduction

In the second part of "The Duel: The Fox That Outlived Them All," hosts Al Murray and James Holland delve deeper into the intricate and tumultuous final days of World War II, focusing on the rivalry between two high-ranking SS officers: Karl Wolff and Ernst Kaltenbrunner. This episode unpacks their maneuvers, negotiations with the Allies, and the eventual outcomes that marked the end of the Nazi regime.

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Karl Wolff’s Negotiations and Challenges

Negotiation Attempts and Risks

Karl Wolff, a top SS officer, saw an opportunity to negotiate an unconditional surrender of German forces in Italy through Operation Sunrise. His objective was to end hostilities swiftly, potentially saving countless lives.

• James Holland [02:04]: “He has managed to save a lot of his men. They won't go to Siberia or to the Balkans or to North Africa or heaven knows where else.”

However, Wolff's clandestine efforts were fraught with peril. Despite promising significant benefits, his negotiations placed him in a precarious position both with the Nazis and the Allies.

Encounter with Himmler and Kaltenbrunner

On March 24, 1945, Wolff was summoned by Heinrich Himmler to Berlin, where he met Ernst Kaltenbrunner. This meeting was tense, as Inverness authorities suspected Wolff of treason.

• Karl Wolff (Quote) [02:04]: “I am not in the least interested in Herr Kaltenbrunner. Whoever goes on fighting now is the greatest of war criminals.”

Himmler's conflicted nature and reluctance to act decisively allowed Wolff some leeway. However, the growing pressure from both the Allies and internal Nazi dynamics meant Wolff had to navigate carefully.

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The Prominente Hostage Plot

Kaltenbrunner’s Gambit

Ernst Kaltenbrunner devised a plan to hold prominent prisoners—referred to as the "Prominente"—as hostages to strengthen his bargaining position.

• James Holland [17:31]: “He’s gathered them together from various camps... including people like the former French Prime Minister, Leon Bloom, and Admiral Miklos Horthy of Hungary.”

These hostages included high-profile figures from various nationalities, making the plot particularly dangerous and complex.

Escape Attempts and Internal Conflict

Amidst the chaos, some high-ranking German officers, such as General Jörg Thomas and General Bogislaw von Bonin, attempted to defy the Nazi orders by seeking surrender or escaping, further destabilizing the situation.

• James Holland [19:33]: "He's the architect of the Blitzkrieg... General Jörg Thomas, who's the architect of the Hunger Plan."

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The Surrender in Italy

Negotiation Breakthrough

Despite numerous setbacks, Wolff persisted in his negotiations with the Allies. His diplomatic skills eventually led to the signing of the first unconditional surrender by German troops in Italy on April 29, 1945.

• James Holland [44:20]: "They go and allow 48 hours for the news to be relayed to all the German people and pro-Axis battalion forces in Italy."

Final Confrontations and Surrender

Wolff's resilience culminated in the formal surrender ceremony held in Reggio, marking a significant step towards the end of the war in Europe.

• James Holland [44:51]: “Just sign the darn thing.”

However, internal power struggles within the Nazi hierarchy, particularly involving Field Marshal Kesselring, threatened to undermine these surrender efforts.

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Aftermath and Fates of Key Figures

Ernst Kaltenbrunner’s Downfall

Kaltenbrunner's plot unraveled as Allied forces closed in. He was captured, tried for war crimes, and ultimately executed in 1946.

• James Holland [56:07]: "For him, the game is up."

Karl Wolff’s Survival and Legacy

Unlike Kaltenbrunner, Karl Wolff managed to evade immediate capture. Post-war, he lived a relatively peaceful life, though his involvement with the Nazis caught up with him during later trials.

• James Holland [58:00]: "He was released in 1947... convicted in the Eichmann trial in 1962 but managed to wriggle free again."

Wolff's ability to navigate post-war Germany highlighted his cunning nature but also left a controversial legacy.

Other Prominent Figures

The episode also touches upon other significant individuals, such as Max Webel, who played crucial roles in mediating between Wolff and the Allies, and various high-profile prisoners held by Kaltenbrunner.

• James Holland [36:24]: “General Joerg Thomas...sharing a room with General Alexander von Falkenhausen.”

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Conclusions and Reflections

Al Murray and James Holland reflect on the chaotic and often absurd final months of World War II, emphasizing the desperate measures taken by Nazi officials to preserve their power. The rivalry between Wolff and Kaltenbrunner serves as a microcosm of the broader disintegration of the Nazi regime.

• Al Murray [60:02]: “The champ is Wolf, who absolutely does. He plays the cards he's got and then the ones he's subsequently dealt.”

The episode underscores the complexities of wartime negotiations, the perilous nature of loyalty within totalitarian regimes, and the intricate dance between survival and morality in the face of impending defeat.

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Notable Quotes

• Karl Wolff [05:19]: “I feel in no way bound to obedience to Herr Kaltenbrunner. Whoever goes on fighting now is the greatest of war criminals.”

• James Holland [22:22]: “Just sign the darn thing.”

• Al Murray [60:02]: “The champ is Wolf, who absolutely does. He plays the cards he's got and then the ones he's subsequently dealt.”

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Final Thoughts

"The Duel: The Fox That Outlived Them All (Part 2)" presents a gripping narrative of power, betrayal, and survival within the waning days of the Third Reich. Through engaging dialogue and detailed historical analysis, Al Murray and James Holland illuminate the lesser-known facets of Nazi leadership and their attempts to negotiate peace, ultimately revealing the futility and desperation that characterized their final actions.

For those intrigued by the intricate dynamics of World War II's endgame, this episode offers a comprehensive and enthralling exploration of pivotal moments and figures that shaped the conclusion of one of history's most devastating conflicts.

Transcript

[Al Murray]

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[James Holland]

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[Al Murray]

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[James Holland]

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[James Holland]

Have at least been able to conclude the negotiations under the best conditions possible with the Anglo American, admittedly in the presence of a Russian. But he simply stood there and neither signed nor spoke a single I have managed to save a lot of my men. They won't go to Siberia or to the Balkans or to North Africa or heaven knows where else. I could probably do the same for many of the others. The question is whether you will be able to answer to history or to our enemies for continuing the fight after our lines have collapsed. Particularly now that the death of Zephyra has become known and released you from your oath. It is your duty to refuse to transfer this oath to any other person. No oath of personal loyalty is transferable. Anyway, I am not in the least interested in Herr Donuts. I feel in no way bound to obedience to Herr Donuts. Herr Donuts means less than nothing to me. Whoever goes on fighting now is the greatest of war criminals. To go on is irresponsibility itself. That, of course was Karl Wulf talking to General Feld Marshall Albert Kessering by telephone on the early hours of 2 May 1945, urging him to stop being a total twat and just surrender.

[Al Murray]

Good morning, hello, good evening, good afternoon. Welcome to we have ways of making you talk the Second World War podcast with me, Al Murray and James Holland. I mean, in a way. Need we continue with the episode? Jim has laid down the law there. That's your historical opinion laid bare for you. Welcome to part two of the duel, as we're calling it, Wulf versus Kaltenbrunner.

[James Holland]

Who will win? There can only be one winner.

[Al Murray]

It's the. The story of the intriguing by the two number twos, what would you say?

[James Holland]

Obergruppen.

[Al Murray]

Obergruppen. Yeah. At the top of the ss. We got to the point where Wolff has been to Sea Dulles not once but twice, but has been blown, so to speak. Yes, his opponents know, thanks to a mole in his camp, an SD man, Haasta has let his boss Kaltenbrunner know what's going on. So that's where we left you.

[James Holland]

Yes. And Wolff has got this golden opportunity to kind of wrap up the war in Italy with an unconditional surrender in March before Mark Clark, General Mark Clark in Italy is going to launch his all out offensive to end the campaign there. And this will of course save untold lives. And it's dangling in front of him. But at that very moment he gets summoned by Himmler and he can't avoid it. So he flies from Bad Neuheim to Berlin, arriving into Tempelhof at around midday on the 24th of March. You know, flying anywhere by at this point, if you're a German, is not particularly smart. And he gets shot at by marauding allied fighters on route and managed to survive that by a bit of head chopping.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And his summons takes him to number four Blight Groitstrasse, which ironically means stay loyal Street. I mean you couldn't make it up, could you?

[Al Murray]

I mean this is all very on the nose. I think that the cosmic Reichstag fighter up there in, in the skies, it's, he's delivering a lot of this very much on the nose for us. You know, it's a bit unbelievable, overcooked some of this plotting, isn't it?

[James Holland]

Yes. So Wolf walks into number four Blightreutstrasser and sees Himmler. But also there, sat in a seat in the living room is Ernst Kaltenbrunner, his nemesis.

[Al Murray]

Yes, it's that kind of Nazi blind Date this. I mean, this is, this is where you go with number one.

[James Holland]

Yeah, exactly.

[Al Murray]

Number three. Now, the issue here though, is that Himmler knows about Wolf talking to Dulles.

[James Holland]

Well, he does, but Wolf is so smart and so he picks, his antennae, pick up very, very quickly that they don't know about the meeting at Ascana, which is the most recent one. They only know about the early foray one. And that's because Wolf hadn't told many people that he was going to Askana.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And he certainly didn't tell Hofster.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

Or Franz Hofer, the go lighter of the Alpenvorland.

[Al Murray]

And so he's able to use the COVID story that he's got that Hitler had actually told him to talk to the Americans back in February.

[James Holland]

Yeah. And he's saying he's not talking about surrender, he was just talking about prisoner swaps and kind of, you know, seeing what they can do to kind of sort of save lives in Northern Italy.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[James Holland]

And they just don't have enough on him.

[Al Murray]

No, I mean, it's fascinating, isn't it though? Because there's this very peculiar, even amongst bad guys, this kind of weird due process going on that they haven't got enough to just shoot him there and there, whereas plenty of other people have been shot there and there. You know what I mean?

[James Holland]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's also because him, forget Himmler and Wolf were really close.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And Himmler is actually quite indecisive. And he's also, he's not without affection for those who are closest to him.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. And who've been loyal to him. Yeah.

[James Holland]

I mean, that's, that's the weird thing. And so he thinks, oh, great, I don't have to. And also, actually, Himmler is weirdly non confrontational. He goes to, you know, he gets other people to do it. You know, he's. He always likes to be one step removed. So when Wolf is being his charming best and kind of sounding incredibly convincing, which he always does because he's such a smooth operator, Kazarena knows he's absolutely lying out of sympathy. Can't prove it.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[James Holland]

So Himna goes, oh, well, that's all right then. Phew. I'd have to. I don't have to kind of arrest you and all the rest of it, which Kaltenbrun has been obviously speaking in his ear.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And so he goes, actually, what I want you to do, this is him and he's. This is. I want you to go with Carlton Brunner. To the Berg Rudolf Stein, which is near Hof in Bavaria, the following day.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And go and have a meeting with Brigade Fuhrer Volta Schellenberg, who's the head of the sd. And, you know, we want to talk about what Haas has been saying and, you know, just clear this all up.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And Wolf goes, yeah, fine. And I mean, can you imagine that car ride with Carlton Brunner?

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Holland]

Both in the back of the car. Anyway, he gets down there, Schellenberg's a bit kind of sort of icy. And then Harster turns up. But Harster doesn't know about the peace raiders. He just knows about a visit. Yeah. Wolf gets two days of sort of being crossed, examined. They're clearly. What they're trying to do is wait for him to slip up, but he's too smart to do that. Yeah. So he just sticks to his story. Sticks to his story and eventually he's able to go. And they said, okay, we'll go back to Berlin and then from there go back to Italy, but don't go to Switzerland again without consulting us.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

Then on the drive back out of Brunner, he's a really, really bad driver. Then runs the car off the road and they roll it twice.

[Al Murray]

This is amazing. He's been strafed from the sky. I mean, he should just not get in cars, basically. Well, this is all. Yeah, it's truly amazing. This turns rolls the car. It doesn't. And they're not hurt, are they? They're sort of bashed about, but they're not hurt. Yeah, absolutely incredible. It gets back to Italy, but pops in to see his wife and children in Austria.

[James Holland]

Yeah. In the Wolfgang Z, which is a sort of lake in. In Austria.

[Al Murray]

He was going to bring them to South Tyrol with him. What I find so interesting about is this is, you know, Himmler himself at this stage is. Is also putting out feelers, isn't he, through Sweden. So it's not like. It's not like he's not at it as well.

[James Holland]

No, no, no, no, no.

[Al Murray]

It's a very, very curious.

[James Holland]

They're all circling around, you know.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, it's.

[James Holland]

It's amazing. Anyway, so he's. He plans to get. Get his. His family is his new wife and his kids and stuff back down to Italy. And he gets back, he's absolutely freaked out by what's happened. You know, he's got away with it and he. And, you know, there's talk about going to Switzerland, but he just thinks, no, you know, actually, I just need to Lie low for a bit. And then Himmler rings him at his place in Lake Garda and says, oh, I hear you're thinking of bringing your family down into Italy. And Wolf goes, wow, yes, yes, yes, I was. He goes, that was a grave mistake. I took the liberty of correcting it. Your wife and your children are remaining at Wolfgangsee there. They are under my protection. So everyone knows what that euphemism means.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah. That only means one thing, doesn't it?

[James Holland]

Yeah, can you imagine? So he cancels his meeting on 22 April, while he's just sort of thinking, oh my God, this is an absolute nightmare. And at the same time, further problems are coming because the Soviets are kicking off with fervor with Dulles and the Americans. And at the same time he's spoken to General von vaietinghoff, the new commander in Italy. But vaietunho is going, well, yeah, I'm all up for surrendering, but as long as we can keep all our weapons and we can do a march out and we can hold onto the South Tyrol and hope. Who is the go lighter of South Turrell going, well, you know, but, but South Tyrol is no longer part of Italy, it's part of Germany, so that doesn't count. And Wolf's just going, you know, he just, it's like, you don't understand. This is unconditional surrender. This is kind of. This is surrender without conditions.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Holland]

And they just, they just can't get it. And von Vaitinghoff is just, it's just, you know, he's got hands over his ears just going, la la la, I can't hear you.

[Al Murray]

And the part of the net effect of that is it will further harden Allied hearts towards Germans. I mean, that's the. In any piece, that's the, the more lives it costs, the less they're going to like you in the long run, let's be honest now.

[James Holland]

Yes, yes. And so Wolf knows that with every kind of passing week and his inability to get a surrender, his chances of having clemency are receding. So, you know, he's absolutely tearing his hair out and, you know, he's got this terribly difficult balance of trying to sort of save his own neck from the Nazis and save his own neck from. Once the war is over.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

You know, it means, you know, he has to take some pretty big risks, which of course he's doing. But meanwhile, you know, there's this diplomatic incident going on between the Americans and the Soviets, and the Soviets are calling it the burn incident.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, and they're writing to Stalin, writes to Roosevelt saying, you know, he's, he's trying to, I mean, it obviously always framed in absolute terms and rich with paranoia that what the Americans are going to do is, you know, let the Germans surrender to them so that they can fight the Soviets by themselves. And obviously that isn't going to happen. But, you know, the way the Soviets negotiate is by offering the most extreme position and then you recoil from it as their partner. And Roosevelt's nearly had it at this point. You know, writes back to Stalin, I thank you for your frank expression. I thank you for your frank expression of Soviet point of view regarding the incident in Bern. I mean, it's not an incident, to be honest. Now they're looking for a way to end the war which appears to have run around without any meaningful results. So in other words, nothing to see here, don't you worry about it.

[James Holland]

And he literally signs that letter, then has a massive aneurysm of the brain and dies. That's where he's. Well gone.

[Al Murray]

It's extraordinary.

[James Holland]

So if you're Wolf, you're kind of thinking, oh my God.

[Al Murray]

Well, and of course this is a great moment. This is Hitler sees, this is the sort of great Catherine, the great moment, isn't it? Or, you know, he says this is as his alter Fritz moment, when finally things turn round, you know, Roosevelt's died, they'll separate the alliance.

[James Holland]

But, but if you're Wolf, Operation Sunrise appears to be dead. Soviet outrage, death of the president combined with other, you know, with a close scrutiny on Wolf. I mean, jeepers.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

But the lines of communication do remain open to Dulles via Luigi Pirelli, the industrialist who's been the kind of go between. Right. From the word go.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

Wolff sends a message of condolence to Dulles about the death of Roosevelt. I mean, you know, nothing to lose, everything to gain.

[Al Murray]

Sorry to hear about your boss.

[James Holland]

And amazingly, and this is absolutely amazing, they also that Wolf will take on an OSS agent as a radio operator.

[Al Murray]

That's amazing. This, this is.

[James Holland]

I mean, I remember when I first read this, I was like, I had to kind of double read it. You know. What, yeah, just read that again. Yeah. So Vaclav Hradecki, who is a young Czech, German speaking, he's safely crossed the Swiss border, having been in a concert, hadn't been in Dachau, incredibly, is then planted as a replacement radio operator an attic room of the headquarters of the MIL sd. So this is, this is Walter Ralph.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. It's absolutely incredible. This as A, A coup, an intelligence coup. But, but you know, everyone's, everyone's putting themselves at great risk here. Khadeki is, I mean, what a brave guy he is.

[James Holland]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But only two people know that he's there. Yeah. So not one Ralph. He's up in a garret up in the attic. It's Baron Perilli and an SS officer called Guido Zimmer, who is, who is a kind of, you know. Absolutely. Wolf's right hand man. One of his staff.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And again, you know, Wolff is paying the kind of huge gamble that this is going to help him win further trust with.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

With, with Dallas. But then, you know, by this time the offensive is underway. You know, 9th of April is when Clark launches his battle.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. And we're at the sort of massive firepower end of the Allied way of doing things. 825 heavies come in, they drop 175,000 fragmentation bombs.

[James Holland]

175,000. Remember how we were awed by 150,000? I mean, centuries being dropped on in the Blitz.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. This is just still not flesh. The Allies are not mucking about anymore. Not that they ever were, but you know what I mean? This is about being super emphatic and saying, saying, all right, that'll do, thanks very much. And we're not going to take any risks. So, you know, Wolff has been saying to Kasserine from fighting Hoff and the Allies, he's been saying, lives are being lost, they don't need to be.

[James Holland]

And here's the proof.

[Al Murray]

Here's the absolute proof.

[James Holland]

Yeah, he's got a chink, which is General Major Hans Rottinger Rotager is von Vaeting off Chief of Staff and he's very much in Wolf's camp. Yeah, he's sensible, normal, not completely deranged.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

Gets. Gets what unconditional surrender is. And so he, he says to Wolf, just leave me, you know, I'm working on von Vaitinghof, you know, so that's kind of a chink, or at least it would be until suddenly on the 13th of April, Wolf is summoned again by Himmler. And he, and he can't refuse. I mean, he, you know, he does. To start off, if he says, I can't possibly do that, you know, the front line's collapsing, resurgent matters here. But you know, he can't keep saying that. And two days later, what has become, I would like to see you in, in Germany, Ober Grumpenfuhrer has now become. You must come. So on the 15th of April, he's he's.

[Al Murray]

He's got no choice and his family being held hostage. So, you know.

[James Holland]

Yeah. And so, so Dallas says to him, you know, Wolf says, look, I've been summoned by him and I don't know what to do. And Dallas goes, flee, mate, hon, you're done. And Wilkins, well, I can't because of the hostage situation. So he then writes to him and says, look, if I. If I don't come back, if I get executed, please do kind of defend my good name. And that he'd been negotiating, not out of self interest at all in any way whatsoever.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, well, you brought it up, mate.

[James Holland]

Purely out of the conviction, hope of saving as far as possible the German people.

[Al Murray]

I mean, honestly. But in the meantime, Kaltenbrunner, because we've been talking a lot about Wolf here, the big bad Wolf. Kaltenbrunner has got himself his own insurance.

[James Holland]

Policy in addition to his. To it. To his. His riches.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, to his sheds. Warehouses full of forged cash. They're prominent. And this is an amazing story.

[James Holland]

It's just yet another layer of bonkers ness.

[Al Murray]

And basically, he's got sort of VIP prisoners together. It's 139 men, women and children who.

[James Holland]

He.

[Al Murray]

Who He's. He sat down, he's written a list and he's.

[James Holland]

He's gathered them together from various camps. All through the Reich.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, all through the Reich, Yeah. And that must have been a very weird moment. You're sat in your camp and someone comes in and goes, you, you're coming with me now. I mean, what does that mean? Does that mean you're off to get a bullet in the neck? Or does that mean. I mean, who knows? And there are German, French, British, Soviet, Czech. I mean, it's basically people from everywhere. Denmark, the Italians, Hungarians, and one Greek. Yeah. And this is. This is proper vip. So there's the former French Prime Minister, Leon Bloom.

[James Holland]

He's Jewish.

[Al Murray]

There's Admiral Mikos Horty of Hungary. Mad Jack Churchill, the famed British commander officer. People always. When we first started doing the podcast, we'd always get tweets going, when are you going to do Mad Jack Churchill? And we've never. We've not done magic church, but he.

[James Holland]

Until now.

[Al Murray]

Until now. Here he is with his bow and arrow.

[James Holland]

And then there's Franz Halder, the architect of the Blitzkrieg.

[Al Murray]

I know, this is absolutely amazing.

[James Holland]

The former Chief of Staff of the army.

[Al Murray]

I mean, what actual value does he have? I mean, it.

[James Holland]

Absolutely amazing. And there's General Jorg Thomas.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Holland]

Who's the architect of the hunger plan.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. The general plan Ost. Yeah. It's extraordinary. Yeah. I mean, what a. What a strange person. I mean, is he, is he sort of thinking, I need, you know, British chips, French chips and even some for the army if I'm going to get what I want out the army. If I've got Howler and I've got Thomas, it gives him.

[James Holland]

He's just thinking, you know, so let's have a broadcast.

[Al Murray]

All bases cover.

[James Holland]

He's also got a number of sip and half. Who These are family members of disgraced Germans. So amongst the prominent are the wife and children of Klaus von Stauffenberg.

[Al Murray]

Incredible.

[James Holland]

It's absolutely unbelievable. It's such an eclectic bunch of people. Anyway, they're all brought together by Carlton Brunner and they're sent first to Innsbruck and from there to the South Tyrol, right under the nose of Car Wolf. I mean, it's absolutely amazing. But you know, the south to Alpenvorland is a place where you can hide people because, I mean, I don't know if you've ever been there. It is.

[Al Murray]

I've not.

[James Holland]

Ludicrously beautiful. And there are all these incredibly hidden valleys and little places and tucked away stuff and you kind of turn off a road and it winds and winds and winds and then suddenly at the end of it there's a tiny little lake and a kind of schloss.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And it's all very kind of Germanic rather than Italian up there. And what he wants to do is he wants to put them in this, this little kind of hotel resort on a lake in a remote corner of the northern part of the south to roll the Alpenvoor land. And there he's going to keep them, and he's going to keep them under guard by the ss. He's either going to use them as a bargaining chip or he's going to execute them. Yeah, and he can execute them one at a time, three at a time, you know, whatever. And just to show that he's serious if he really, if he really needs to. But the point is they're all together, they're in one place and they're remote and no one can get to them. That's the idea. But while the prominent are being corralled and transported southwards, Wolf of course is heading back into Germany. So he flies into war torn Berlin on the evening of the 16th of April, and then he has to drive 75 miles north to Hohenlichen. And because you know, Himmler doesn't Want to stay in bloody Berlin. The last thing he wants to do is be in the bunker with Hill. It's far too dangerous.

[Al Murray]

And, I mean, it's amazing that Wolf will get back in a car after his recent experiences.

[James Holland]

Yes.

[Al Murray]

So off he goes. He goes to Hohluken and it's a.

[James Holland]

Sanitarium and it's got huge great red crosses on the. And it's still there. It's still there. It's abandoned, it's. It's derelict. You can still go to her and Licken. It's a really, really weird place. It's got the. But, you know, in the war, it had these huge great red crosses on the top, you know, so it's out of Berlin, but it's within reach of Berlin. It's got red crosses. So hopefully the Allies won't bomb it. You know, that's what. What the selfless Himmler is thinking about.

[Al Murray]

Well, and Himmler's in a good mood when he first turns up, doesn't he?

[James Holland]

Yes, he's all five, snapping and bonhomie. But then the toe, then the tone changes once more, as who should. Whose shadow should fall across the open heart? Yeah, but the six foot seven scars.

[Al Murray]

Scars come through the door and you're like, oh, God, here we go.

[James Holland]

Yes, exactly. HANS ZIMMER MUSIC and Kaltenbruner accuses Wolf.

[Al Murray]

Directly of treason, doesn't it? And there's a big row. Himmler trying to sort of chair it or manage his two subordinates. And of course, this is, after all, you know, this is how things are done in Nazi Germany. You let the people below you fight amongst themselves, but you'd probably rather they didn't do it in front of you, because you might then make a decision. That's the other thing. It's all about avoiding making decisions. Wolf then says, all right, because he knows he's really in trouble. He says, all right, I want to go and see. We go and see Hitler immediately. He says, we're getting all. Getting the car together. We're going to drive to the Fuhrer bunker.

[James Holland]

And Himmler goes, I'm not going there.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, no way, mate.

[James Holland]

I'm not having that. Well, because you two go. He says. So Will's thinking, God, please don't let Kaltenbrunner drive. And actually, he doesn't on this occasion. They sit. They sit together like this, you know, sort of cross across arms, both staring out at the opposite window, not talking to one another, and they go to the freaking Fuhrer bunker. And as they go down the Steps, you know, they're not. They're not. They don't see Hitler straight away. Wolf turns to Kaltenborough and says, if they hang me, my place will be between yours and Himmler's. Which is clever because it's a threat, but it's implying that he's got dirt on Kaltenbrenner.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, well, he basically. He basically says, if you tell them about me. Saying, if you tell Hitler about me seeing. Tell us. I'll say, well, why didn't you tell him sooner? You've been saving this up. You knew. You're complicit. You're part of it as much as anything else. And after all, they do know that, you know, that the boss is paranoid. And then they. They go, they. They're kept waiting.

[James Holland]

Of course they are, obviously.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, obviously, because that's how everyone. Everyone so far in this story has been kept waiting one way or another. Himmler and Kaltenbruner. Hitler confronts them immediately. He says, I, you know, I know you've been talking to the. To the Americans. And Wolf says, yeah, I'm happy to be able to. Happy to report to my Fuhrer that through Mr. Dulles I've been successful in opening the gates to the White House in Washington and the door to the Prime Minister in London for talks. I request instructions for the future, mein Fuhrer. I mean, absolutely incredible for us. Neck of it.

[James Holland]

Oh, my God.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. And they're told to go away.

[James Holland]

And he goes, great. Okay, well, continue. He says, carry on doing negotiations with Dulles.

[Al Murray]

That's amazing, isn't it?

[James Holland]

Because he then goes, okay, well, let me think about all this. And they then sort of have to wait because it's now the early hours of the morning, and it's not until 5pm on the 19th of April that Hitler comes back again and says, let's go for a walk outside. You know, there's no Allied aircraft overhead and the guns are quiet at this point. Hitler then says, this is what's going to happen. Obviously, the Americans and Russians are going to fall out. Their shaking alliance is going to collapse. This, he says, is inevitable. Okay, fine, whatever. And therefore, he thinks that Wolff should carry on talking to Dulles as a means of buying time for this collapse that's going to happen. And suddenly Wolf is just going, yeah, you know, so now he's. So he's, you know, he's completely called Carlton Brunner's bluff and it's paid off. And actually, he says, actually, what I had done, opening negotiations with the enemy without the Ascent of the Fuhrer could be interpreted as high treason that might have led to court martial and execution or at any rate imprisonment. Thank God I was held in such personal esteem that they did not do the first and they did not have the courage to imprison me either.

[Advertiser]

Incredible.

[James Holland]

Absolutely incredible. Anyway, so he now, having left kind of Italy a few days earlier, wondering whether he'd ever get back there again or whether he'd even survive. He's now back with a clear path and the bottom line is Catamara can no longer touch him.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he's got the thumbs up from the Fuhrer.

[James Holland]

Yeah. It doesn't mean to say he's off the hook because he's, he's off the hook by, you know, he's not going to be arrested by Himmler or Catalina anymore. But he's still, you know, the battle is raging in Italy every day that passes. You know, his chance of getting a free hearing from the Allies is less, you know, as his influence on the battle is less, so his chances of clemency is less, I would say. On 22 April, three days after arriving back in Italy, he's invited to a conference called by Ambassador Rahn at von Vaitinghoff's headquarters near Verona. And Wolff is a bit paranoid about this but goes anyway. All the senior German commanders are there, Von Feihoff, his chief of staff, General Rotiger, General Max von Pohl, who's the head of the Luftwaffe are there and go lighter Frank Hofer. And it becomes absolutely clear that while all agree that it's time to end hostilities, loads of them have completely different ideas of how that's going to play out. Von Beethenhoff is still clinging to this ridiculous notion of an honorable surrender. Hofer is still demanding the South Tyrol be separated from the rest of Italy. This is because of course it's going to be the Alpine redoubt. Wolf is just tearing his hair out. You know the idiocy of these people.

[Al Murray]

Well, because he's spoken to Dulles, he knows what unconditional surrender is. He's, he's, the penny has dropped for him. He knows what he's, he know, literally knows what he's talking about.

[James Holland]

Yeah. But what Wolff and Rotiger persuade the others to do is to allow another face to face meeting with Dulles and this time with two senior officers. Oberst Hanslova von Schweinitz, who is a member of von Veetinghoff's staff, and Oberstamfuhren Eugen Werner, who is one of Wolf's adjutants. So they're going to go with him with Baron Parilli. And they reach Lucerne on 23 April, only to learn that the meeting has been cancelled because there's a new American president, Harry S. Truman, and he's been under pressure from Stalin in a way that Roosevelt was happy to just go, no. Two fingers, Joe.

[Al Murray]

Well, because Truman as vice president, he's up on the domestic politics, but he's actually got no idea what Roosevelt's been up to, what he's been saying to people, the deals he's been making, his correspondence. And he's on this extraordinary crash course that first week he becomes president, finding out what's been going on, what promises have been made, what the personalities are like he has to deal with. I mean, his baptism in that. That week after Roosevelt's death is absolutely incredible, you know, and obviously he's an opportunity for Stalin, Truman, isn't he? To crank the pressure up further. You've got someone he knew, doesn't know what's going on. You can. Stalin can really lean on him. So he has. And Truman's really invested in unconditional surrender as an idea because he's inherited it. He's not got it with any of Roosevelt's baggage. He's just got it plain straight up in front of him, hasn't he got to say that to the Soviets. Really interesting.

[James Holland]

Well, let's take a break there.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And leave it on this cliffhanger of Will Wolf get his meeting with Dulles or not? And we'll. We'll conclude this mad bonkers episode. The Duel in. In Part two.

[Al Murray]

We'll see you in a tick. Whatever you do, don't get in a car with Calton Brunner.

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[Al Murray]

Welcome back to Weird ways of making you talk Part two of part two of the Duel Wolf versus Carlton Brunner two of the I mean, this couldn't be happening to two nicer people, could it? Any of this. But here we are. Will Wolf get his meeting with Dulles? This is the question. So what happens? Jim?

[James Holland]

Well, after two days of twilling his thumbs and tearing his hair out, Wolf thinks I I just can't risk being out of Italy any longer. There's so much going on. He needs to be there at the center so that people don't make stupid decisions without him. So he goes, right, I've got to go. But actually at this point there's a change because Alexander, Phil Marshall Alexander has been lobbying London, Washington, urging them to allow the talks to proceed. London has been putting pressure on Washington. And also there's a really, really interesting player in all this who's a Swiss army officer called Max Webel. And Webel is head of the Swiss Intelligence section number one and is one of the key mediators in all of this. He turns to Dulles and says, here we have the German negotiators ready to offer unconditional surrender, and the Allies don't even want to receive them. Do you want to end the war, having them kill everyone? He says to Dallas.

[Al Murray]

That is amazing, isn't it? But that's the. That's basically, after all, domestically in America, there is. There. There's a lot of, you know, unconditional surrender presented like this. It's incredibly controversial that the idea is, here you are. You are going to get more people killed. Yeah.

[James Holland]

When people don't, you know, people like Dulles don't want to kind of act unilaterally, you know, so. So it's difficult. But meanwhile, the adventures to Wolf haven't ended either, because he leaves von Schweinitz and Werner in Lucerne to continue negotiations if they arrive, which they. They do then begin on the 25th day that Wolf leaves.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

But W spends the night at the Villa Locatelli in Cenobio, which is just over the border.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And is an SS command post near Lake Como. But the following morning, 26th of April, partisans have surrounded the place and are bang for blood. They know he's in there. And the day before, Mussolini's fled, along with his mistress, Clara Potacci, and Alessandro Pavolini, and also his. His illegitimate daughter, Elena Curti, who I interviewed and who was part of that escape. And the whole of northern Italy is being overrun while Wolf has been away. His own headquarters has moved from Lake Garda. So has Van Von Ve, and they've moved to Bolzano.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

So clearly it's, you know, near the end in Italy, whether there's a negotiated surrender at this point or not, one way or another. Yeah. Yeah. So Wolf now phones Walter Ralph, but he doesn't have any men to go. So he then calls up Max Webel again, and Webel for the second time, saves the day because he sends SOS agents with a whole lot of vehicles, men and money to bribe the partisans. And Wolf is allowed to slip back into Switzerland once again. And Webel and the American Gerard von Gewenitz are waiting for him at the border. And Wolf says, I will never forget what you have done for me. He says to Webel, and eventually he has to smug. Get smuggled north, cross into Austria, head back down via the Brenner farce, and finally reaches Bolzan on the 27th of April. So had he stayed in Lucerne, he'd have been there for the negotiations. But, you know, and this is the Same day. Yeah. The139 prominenten are brought south heading towards this hotel resort called the Praguese Wildsee which I've been to. And it is. God, it's beautiful.

[Al Murray]

And they're prominent and turn up by surprise for the Luftwaffe who are using it.

[James Holland]

Yes. So they're not. So they can't. No, they arrive and they, and you know, people are sent ahead to go and sort of clear out the Pragues of Fieldsea, but the Luftwaffe are there. So they then think, well, what do we do? So they actually stay in a place called Nederdorf which is this kind of. It's. I mean it's so Germanic. It is in the South Tyrol, it is in Italy, but it, but it's very German. It's got that sort of, you know, the wooden framed buildings and gothic writing on the insides and all this sort of stuff. There's two SS officers in charge of them and a whole load of SS men. Obersturm Ban Fuhrer Friedrich Bader who's in charge of the prominent and Obersturmfuhrer Edgar Stiller who is in charge of the logistics. You know, he's the kind of sort of team manager.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

Whereas Barter is the overall commander. And Bardo knows, you know, he's an SD officer. He knows completely that these are bar that Carlton Brenner's bargaining chip where Stiller is is a kind of sort of SS Toten Kopfer band. So he's sort of, you know, he's. That's. That these are the sort of people that look after prison camps and death camps and all the rest of it, concentration camps. So neither of them, when they get to Niederdorf know exactly where Carlton Brunner is. And comms with Berlin are obviously down by this point because it's 27th of April. Yeah, it's all going pear shaped big time. And they're comparatively junior but they've got a huge amount of responses of all these kind of German Wehrmacht generals under their charge and you know, Gerald Thomas and Halder and you know, Leon Bloom and all the rest of it. Stiller is clearly pretty nervous and anxious and realizes war's over and you know, doesn't want to do the wrong thing. Bada is a total out and out Nazi and quite happy and actually wants to execute them.

[Al Murray]

I mean he's just keen on shooting people.

[James Holland]

Yeah, just bring it on. So they get there and you know, Nederdorf is not a big town. It's got a little, lovely little town square. It's Got inns and little hotels around it and a rat house rather than a kind of, you know, Italian style town hall. And they all get kind of separated up and put into these. Into these pensiones and hotels. And among the hostages in the Hotel Backman is absolutely amazing, is Sigismund Payne Best, who's a British MI6 agent who was captured by the Gestapo. The Venlo incident in belgium back in November 1939. Remember that one?

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Holland]

Which was masterminded by von Schellenberg.

[Al Murray]

Yes. Now head of the sd, SIS at its naive finest. At the start.

[James Holland]

Right, right, right. And so he's been a prisoner of war ever since. So he's now sharing a room with General Alexander von Falkenhausen, who's the former German governor of Belgium and he'd been implicated in the Stauffenberg plot. And General Joerg Thomas.

[Al Murray]

It's mad, isn't it?

[James Holland]

Do you mind if I have a clap first? You know, I mean, can you imagine?

[Al Murray]

Completely. I say, oh, boy, I'd rather you didn't go first. I mean it. Quite extraordinary, isn't it? And he's been in the bag. He's been in the bag for the entire war, hasn't he?

[James Holland]

He.

[Al Murray]

So God knows what his mental state's.

[James Holland]

Like, but obviously security around there is pretty lax, so people are able to kind of sort of get away. And anyway, the first night, Payne Bess heads downstairs to try and find out what the hell's going on and finds two of the SSS guards who are already drunk, and they're both Totenkot for Bender. And one of them has been a quartermaster at Dachau. And, you know, Payne Best has kind of been buttering them up and befriending them and all the rest of it, so it says. So obviously, after four years of captivity, five years of captivity, whatever, he can speak. Speak fluent German. Probably could speak it beforehand, for all I know.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Holland]

Anyway, he goes, I shall put a good word for you when you fall into the hands of our troops. He does. The quartermaster goes, yes, I know you're my friend. If it helped me, if you were alive. And he then produces the orders through his breast pocket. He goes, here is the order for your execution. You won't be alive after tomorrow. Pain vessel goes, what? And the quartermaster is absolutely insistent. They say Bader always carries out his orders. Suit them all down. Slurs the other one fumbling, you know, with his pistol. Bum, bum, bum, bum, bum. All off his best. Payne Best sort of laughs nervously, says, would you really gun down a Man with him, you've just had a. Had a. Had a drink. He goes, yeah, hair Best, but what can I do, you know, Let me.

[Al Murray]

Go, let me go.

[James Holland]

Yeah. But meanwhile, he's been. While Payne Best has been buttering up the pissed SS Guards, General Georg Thomas and General Bogislaw von Bonin, who's in.

[Al Murray]

Jail for having ordered a retreat earlier in the year.

[James Holland]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's a treasonous bastard. They've managed to escape and found a phone booth and put a call into von Vaitinghoff's headquarters and he's spoken to General Rurtiger, you know, he then promises to act. Rutiger then talks to von Weetinghoff and they agree this is absolutely ridiculous and they need to order the Luftwaffe to leave immediately. He then rings forward to Hauptman Richard von Alvensleben, who is serving on von Weichtinghoff's staff and who is coincidentally only a few miles away in a place called Sexton, which is about 8 to 10 miles away from Niederdorf. And he's scouting for a new headquarters because they feel they're even safe in Bolzana at this point. So Rutiger says to von Alvensdeben, you need to get your ass over to Niederdorf and kind of diffuse the situation. PDQ. So he goes over late on the 27th of April and talks to Stiller, who by this point is kind of really a quivering wreck, and says, you know, in this terrible dilemma, you know, what are we supposed to do? Barters are nutter and, you know, we're supposed to execute them tomorrow. This is on the orders of Kaltenbrunner, blah, blah, blah. He's saying it's on the orders of the Fuhrer, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So Alvazuma thinks, well, there's nothing I can do now. They're not gonna do anything now. I need to come back first thing in the morning with some troops. But he hasn't got any troops. He's only got his, you know, he's only him. So he goes back over first thing in the morning, finds Bada, tries to persuade him. Barda's absolutely not to be budged whatsoever. So he then rings up Rottinger again and by complete chance speaks to Wolf.

[Al Murray]

So Wulf now knows about the Prominent.

[James Holland]

Properly, yeah, he knows about the Prominentum property. And Van Alvansleemen says, well, look, I can, you know, I've mustered some troops and stuff, but, you know, we've now got a bit of a Standoff going on in Niederdor with. With the ss, you know, can I open fire if I need to? And Wolf goes, yeah, crack on, kill the bastards.

[Al Murray]

It's incredible.

[James Holland]

So even this. So Alvin sleeping, then says, you know, shouts across the square, you know, put down your weapons. We will open fire on order of, you know, blah, blah, blah. And even then, Barda and Stiller don't back down. But in the end, it's Sigismund Payne Best and who and several others who persuade the SS to lay down their weapons. So it's not Bader and Stiller that do is the Prominenta who go, come on, mate, the game's up.

[Al Murray]

Incredible.

[James Holland]

And, you know, they managed to do it without a shot being fired. And then they're all kind of sort of taken in coaches down to the Pragues of Fieldsea and, you know, where they are put up as planned and actually can then bask in the glories of the lake and have some schnapps together.

[Al Murray]

That's absolutely. It's absolutely incredible, that story.

[James Holland]

It's just so bad. Yeah, it's so mad.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, bonkers. And it's. The war's over for Christ. And this is why, again, we keep coming back to the. You know, because we're often on the podcast, we said, oh, you know, the writings on the wall for Germany as a sort of. As a. As a belligerent in July of 1943. But I mean, look, come on, you lot, yeah, throw in the towel, give up, it ain't worth it.

[James Holland]

But let's face it, it's looking pretty bad for Carlton Brunner, who has. Has, you know, he's. He's lost his bargaining chip of the prominent. He's lost his battle to get to Dulles. Wolf has got away with it. All Kaltenbrunner now has is his wits, a few die hards, and vast amounts of loot and money, which, frankly, might be enough if he's smart. But it isn't plain saving for Wolf by any stretch of the imagination, who's still trying to kind of seal the unconditional surrender. So on the 27th of April, he's in Bolzano. He's back in Bolzano. And he learns from Vaclav Kardecki, who is now ensconced in his attic in the Palazzo Ducale in Bolzano, which one can still go and visit, by the way. And it's. And it's absolutely magnificent. It's a palace that was remodeled in the 1930s on fascist lines. So there's kind of marble corridors and all the rest of it. And there's this amazing kind of drawing room salon which has got sort of references to Mussolini and Il Ducci and you know, Fasces and all this kind of stuff. It's absolutely amazing. And it's got this amazing kind of roof little balcony on the first floor. So you go out of this kind of salon through the kind of French windows and there's this kind of roof balcony where you can you know, look out over the garden. It's an incredible place. Anyway, the news has also arrived that Mussolini's been captured that day by partisans on the 27th and the following day by which time Mussolini's been killed as has Clara Potacci and Alessandro Pavolini. Field Marshal Alexander's personal C47 Dakota flies into Switzerland, picks up von Schweinitz and Werner accompanied by Major Hanley of Lemnitz's Lyman Lemnitz's staff who is Alexander's American chief of staff and Gerv von Gewenitz, the German born American industrialist in Switzerland. And from there they fly over Mont Blanc, south over Corsica to Alexander's supreme allied headquarters at Caserta, you know, the palace there. There they meet with Lemnica and also General Airy, but also crucially two Soviet representatives, Major General A.P. kislenko, his interpreter Lieutenant Jurevsky. This is the big moment because von Scheinitz and Werner have Wolf and von Vaitinghoff's authority to sign the surrender.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, it's extraordinary, isn't it?

[James Holland]

It's been agreed. Finally Wolff and Ru have persuaded von Vaetinghoff to stop this nonsense and just end it. They're still trying to negotiate a little bit but this is things like, you know, it's like minor stuff. They've agreed to the principle of unconditional surrender but it's things like cancer. They maintain their sidearms, you know, how long troops, how long troops will, ordinary troops will be in prisoner camps. All this kind of stuff.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, that, that's the sort of stuff they, that kind of nitty gritty. They get tangled up in, in all of the surrenders actually it becomes a thing where they, because they're, they're just trying to, they're trying to hang on to something, aren't they? They're trying to at least have some influence. I mean generally the Allies when it comes to it go, yeah, okay, you got 24 hours to sort that out or 48 hours to sort that out.

[James Holland]

Don't worry about it. Exactly. So 2pm on the 29th of April, 1945, in the ballroom at the Reggio, which is the huge. Great. It's the largest single palace in Europe, at least it was. The signing ceremony begins. It's a huge room. There's a massive kind of situation map on the wall. So just to sort of really rub the Germans noses in it.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And overseeing this is Alexander's new chief of staff. So it used to be General to John Harding, but. But it's not anymore. It's now Lieutenant General Sir William Morgan. He says, I understand you're prepared and empowered to sign the terms of surrender agreement, is that correct? And von Gewenitz translates. Ja, says von Schweinitz. Jevol replies, werner. But then just at the last minute, with von Schweinitz's kind of pen hovering over the paper, he suddenly says, I presume that my commander in chief, General von Vaitinghoff, will accept, but I cannot be entirely responsible.

[Al Murray]

I gotta help, for Christ's sake.

[James Holland]

Yeah. Von Morgen just goes, forget. No, no, just. Just sign it.

[Al Murray]

Just sign the darn thing.

[James Holland]

Just sign the darn thing. And so they do. And they allow 48 hours for the news to be relayed to all the German people and pro access battalion forces in Italy. So it's now 2:17pm on the 29th. So the first unconditional surrender.

[Al Murray]

Amazing.

[James Holland]

Of German troops has been signed in Italy on the 29th. And that might just be enough for Wolf, but the signatures might not be enough as von Schweinitz has suggested. And it isn't, because suddenly Italy has been added to Kusselring's command of OB Vest.

[Al Murray]

So he's back in the picture. He's part of the calculation again.

[James Holland]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And go lie to Franz. Hofer has got in touch with him and basically got in his ear and said, you know, they're doing all this stuff and they haven't consulted you. You're the commander in chief in the west, you know, it's outrageous and you know what's going on. And Kesselring absolutely blows his top when he hears this. And so about ringing up or speaking to Wolf, who is his equal effectively and, you know, has been in Italy, or he just sacks von Betinghoff and Rotinger on the spot. It's absolutely amazing. So meanwhile, Kaltenbrunner has got a kind of squad of SS commandos ready under Otto Skorzeny ready to go and do a raid on Bolzano and snatch Wolf.

[Al Murray]

Wolf.

[James Holland]

So then. Still not safe. Although having said that, you know, Wolf is aware that this Might be a possibility to surrounded the Palazzo Ducale in Bolzano with troops and even tanks. It's absolutely like Fort Knox. There's no way any Scorsese is going to get anywhere near him.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

But General Friedrich Schultz, who was already commander in chief of Army Group G, which is sort of the Bavaria, Southern Alps, Austria kind of bit, is now also given Army Group C. And so hurries down to Bolzano, where Rotiger promptly puts both of them in a guarded cell in the cellar.

[Al Murray]

And we're about to see that the moment that comes. This goes back to Wolf's assessment of Kesselring at the end of the last episode, where he's saying, this guy's going to be. It's going to take Hitler dying. He's bound by his oath. It's going to take Hitler dying. He's clinging on to his oath. And until those either breaks his oath or Hitler has to die for that to happen. Happen. And we're stuck.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

And now that Kessing's back in the picture, I mean, it's the. The idea that Kessing thinks he could essentially come in and overturn that surrender when the Allies. How are the Allies going to react to that, actually? How are they going to. How are they going to treat.

[James Holland]

Well, quite. It's. It's absolute monkerness.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And then. And then you just. At this moment, you know, and Schultz is not, you know, it's quite reasonable. So it's not, you know, you know, he, he's. He's just saying, well, this is what Catherine's asked me to do. And then suddenly comes through the news that. That Hitler's been killed.

[Al Murray]

Well, there we are.

[James Holland]

So as what, as Wolf says, ever tears in our eyes, because after all the difficulties we had been through and all the wrestling we had had to do with so many people, fate had been kind to us, and everyone's like, so. So, so Schultz and Wenzel are taken out of their cell. They're kind of like, phew, okay, yeah, we can get on with it. They pull a call through to Kesselring, but Kesselring's not budging. He's saying, I'm not. I'm not authorizing anything until the new Fuhrer has authorized him to do so, which is that this is the point where.

[Al Murray]

Where we had that quote at the start.

[James Holland]

We have that quote at the start. So. So, you know, you know, time is running out, and Alexander is contacting Wolf through Vaclav Hradecki and saying, is this that you are still going to honor this at 2 o' clock tomorrow morning. Tomorrow, the 2nd of May, and it's now the early hours of the 2nd of May, and Kesselring's not budging. So at this point, they have this incredible conversation where they rant and rage at each other for literally two hours.

[Al Murray]

Amazing.

[James Holland]

Going round and round and round in circles. And this is just the most incredible line. So Kesselring says to watch. You are tearing all my defensive plans to pieces and causing the whole carefully built edifice to totter. I mean, what?

[Al Murray]

Well, also, Jim, in Casino 44, you know, your cards are firmly on the table. You've reassessed Kessler. You find him to be lacking. I mean, here you go.

[James Holland]

Here you go. Exactly. I rest my case. And in response to this, Wolf says, three times in these past months, I've offered my help and that of my armies to you, to Zweig. And if you had made use of this offer, a lot of human blood need not have flowed, and a great deal of destruction would have been avoided.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, and he's right about that.

[James Holland]

He's right.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. Even though, I mean, after all, the thing the Allies have sought is moral clarity here. But Wulf has moral clarity there for all of all the things he's done, all the things he's been involved in, everything he represents.

[James Holland]

Indisputable.

[Al Murray]

It's indisputable. He's completely in the right here.

[James Holland]

And then he signs off in a kind of sort of forest guard jump kind of line. That's all I have to say about that, because that is what I have to tell you. It's just amazing.

[Al Murray]

Clunk.

[James Holland]

Yeah, exactly. Anyway, so then Castle Ring rings back. Half an hour later, it goes. All right, fine, fine. Then why didn't you say this a month ago?

[Al Murray]

It is awful. Well, because. Because all these people have died in the interim. The, the. The lives that could have been saved. And with. With things so plainly over for Nazi.

[James Holland]

Germany, so briefly, how does it all play out? Well, yeah, yeah. Wolff just stays where he is, you know, the surrender happens. There's quite a lot of confusion. There are hundreds of thousands of German troops sweeping through the valley of Bolzano, heading up towards the Brenner Pras, trying to escape. On their tail are the 85th Customman division, who reach Trento on the 3rd May and then push up north. And they're hoping to join American soldiers who are coming south from the 7th army, moving down through. Through Austria and Innsbruck and all the rest of it. Not very many customers can be spared in Bolzano. For kind of sort of policing. So they agree that a number of German fel Gendarmerie would help. There is a photo of an American and a German side by side doing this with thing. And the German's got his pistol on and everything.

[Al Murray]

Amazing.

[James Holland]

It is absolutely amazing. And Wolf just sits there in the Palazzo Ducal just having a laugh and, you know, drinking the cellar dry, you know, he even invites Dulles and von Gavenitz to come and be his guests. And von Gavenitz says, yeah, all right. Arrives on the 9th of May. He's absolutely astonished by the calm and people scenes. Von Gavenitz leaves on. Leaves Bolzano on the 12th of May. And the very next day is Wolf's 45th birthday. So he thinks, well, I'm here, I've got lots of booze, might as well have a party. So they're absolutely having the time of Reilly, when American troops of the 38th Division arrived. And it's only at that point that the captain who comes in and goes, party's over, mate. You know, that's it.

[Al Murray]

It's incredible, isn't it?

[James Holland]

And they're all put in. They're put in the old concentration camp in Bolzano. That's where they're all housed. Him, Hofer von Pol, you know, the whole lot wrote together, the whole shebang.

[Al Murray]

Incredible.

[James Holland]

And what he does is he cooperates every single turn. So he tells them exactly where all the art has been saved. So he sends them, puts them in the direction of Colonel Alexander von Langsdorff. He's got a whole load of works at the Castello and Numerlands in Campo Dures, which again I've been to. It's absolutely, just amazing. It's formidable kind of Schloss. And he also takes him to this tiny village called San Leonardo, which is north of Murano. And it is. Oh, my God. The view above that village is just looking down over the villages over the valley. It's just. Just unbelievable. But underneath the police station, which is still there, are these little cells. And in the cells is where they find Titians, Reubens and that. That masterpiece. You know, the. The two pictures of Adam and Eve that's in the Uffizi. There they are.

[Al Murray]

And he's basically. He's honored all his promises, which I think is very interesting, isn't it? Because. Because, I mean. Well, we'll talk about this another time. But it makes you. He's clearly a smart guy who's very, very ambitious, which is how he got caught up in Nazism in the first place. And ended up at the top of it.

[James Holland]

He's not really ideological, he's a right winger, you know, he's right wing. But he's not, he's not an ardent Nazi.

[Al Murray]

But this is what's so interesting, isn't it? It's that, is that those same instincts that got him to the ss, the things that are extracting him from the, from the, got to the top of the ss, the same things that extracting him from the situation at the end of the war. I mean it's clearly a very clever man. I'm not saying that in admiration, but he's clearly a very, very smart operation.

[James Holland]

Brunner, however, Carlton Brunner, I mean he's also clever, but not. He doesn't have the kind of same instincts that, that, that wolf has. So he gathers a whole load of huge amount of counterfeit money.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And heads off to Altuse, which is another absolutely breathtakingly beautiful place. But it's also, you know, if, if Obersalzberg is Nazis on the hill, Altoze is Austrian Nazis by the lake.

[Al Murray]

Lake.

[James Holland]

I mean, you know, it's. Lots of them live there. He lives in the Villa Kerry, which is a rather lovely house on the, kind of just on the slight, on the rise overlooking the, overlooking the village, the town of Altus A, overlooking the lake.

[Al Murray]

And he's got 50 kilos of gold, $2 million in funny notes, Swiss francs, five cases of jewels and a stolen stamp collection worth 5 million gold marks.

[James Holland]

So you know, he's got more than enough to escape forever if he wants to. This is also where his 24 year old mistress, Countess Gisela von Vestapiz and she's the mother of the twins that she's born him back on the 12th of March that year.

[Al Murray]

So he thinks, I wonder, I'll set up here, I'll be all right.

[James Holland]

Well, he doesn't think that. He thinks this is a stopgap. What I need to do is get into the mountains and head south into, you know, an escape. But I need to organize. But what I do need to do is I need to lie low for a little bit and this is sufficiently remote, no one's going to want here he knows about the mountains and up in the mountains there, you know, you're, you know, obviously surrounded by mountains and, and there's these sort of mountain huts and stuff. So he thinks, well, I'll just go and lie low in a mountain hut for a bit. So he sets off on 7th of May with his loot and two days later, by which point, the war is absolutely, completely over. 9th of May, Captain Robert E Matteson of the US 80th Counterintelligence Corps arrives at CIC. He's only got a small number of men. They arrest a number of Nazis. Interesting. Adolf Eichmann has a house in Altuse.

[Al Murray]

Oh, really?

[James Holland]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he turns up before he flees, and he takes his young son across his knees and gives him a good.

[Al Murray]

Thrashing as a parting gift.

[James Holland]

And he says, remember that this is, you know, life is hard. Absolutely amazing. Anyway, then buckers off and escapes, as we know, but not forever. And Matteson learns that Kaltamarun has gone to the mountains. When he speaks to Gisela von Vestap, she accidentally kind of reveals that he's been there and has fled. And then on the 11th of May, Madison learns that that Carter runner has been spotted in the mountains on the Tutorska Burger, which means, of course, Death Mountain. Appropriately, again, you just can't make it up, you know, Stay Loyal, Street Death.

[Al Murray]

Mountain, you know, but also, I mean, these dueling scars of which he was so proud as a young man, and they're like, it's impossible to disguise who you are. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[James Holland]

The baseball cap and hood, he's not going to cut it.

[Al Murray]

I mean, couldn't be more hubristic, could it?

[James Holland]

No, exactly. So, so Mattison goes off of a squad of 10 GIs and four Vermax troops, four German soldiers as guides, and they set off at midnight the same day, and by first light they've reached this narrow plateau on the mountain on which was perched this, this, this, this wooden hut. And I've walked this very route and it's fantastic, it's absolutely beautiful. You. You climb up through the woods and the trees and then you do get. There's a little river and a stream and there's this sort of stepped plateau. So you get on the first plateau and then it sort of clambers up some rocks and stuff. You get to another one, it's sort of laced with gorgeous wild mountain flowers. And then perched on this little lip is this wooden hut. And that's it. That's where Kelton Brunner was hiding out. And as they approach this hut, you know, the shutters are back and it all looks completely deserted. And they go and bang on the door. There's nothing happens. And then suddenly they hear a little noise and he gets.

[Al Murray]

Ah.

[James Holland]

So they kind of bang again on the door and a window opens and it's not Countenbrenner. There's a man There he says, you know, no one here. Don't know who you mean, what you know.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And anyway, so they, they, they pull back a little bit, cover it with guns and, and, and, and call them out, and eventually the door opens and Hender Hoch. Yep, there's Kaltenbrunner.

[Al Murray]

Amazing.

[James Holland]

For him, the game is up.

[Al Murray]

And so Kaltenbrunner goes to the gallows at Nuremberg and there is a, there is even a photograph of him on the slab cab if you want to see it.

[James Holland]

Yep. He's not terribly impressive in his interrogation.

[Al Murray]

No. And he has a, he has a brain hemorrhage, doesn't he, and has to recover from that before they can interrogate him. And he says, oh, my juniors wrote those memos about executing people. I. And I tried to stop the Holocaust, but they didn't let me. And he tries an absolute, like, reverse ferret defense and goes to the gallows in October 1946.

[James Holland]

And Wolf, frankly, gets away with it. Yeah, well, a winner. The champ.

[Al Murray]

The champ is Wolf, who absolutely does. He plays the cards he's got and then the ones he's subsequently dealt.

[James Holland]

Perfection to perfection.

[Al Murray]

He becomes a, you know, witness for the prosecution. Hurtle, of course, Villa Hurtle, who'd been at, I'll say, ends up working for the CIA.

[James Holland]

Yep. And then becomes, Becomes a schoolmaster.

[Al Murray]

And then becomes a schoolmaster. Yeah.

[James Holland]

And lives happily ever after.

[Al Murray]

But I mean, Wolf's kind of. He gets away with it really, doesn't he?

[James Holland]

He's released in 1947. He's second in the SS to Himmler and he's released in 1947.

[Al Murray]

It's absolutely extraordinary.

[James Holland]

He gets a little bit of a hiccup later because it becomes clear during the Eichmann trial in Jerusalem in 1962 that Wolff has sort of, you know, had a bit of a part in all this. So he gets tried again and gets charged with masterminding the transit camp in Bolzano, in fact, which is exactly the same camp that he ends up being in when he's first taken into captivity. 300,000 Italian Jews, including Primo Levi, pass through there on their way to Auschwitz. Etc. So he's convicted, sentenced to 15 years.

[Al Murray]

I mean, still, there's nothing, isn't it?

[James Holland]

You know, if you're not gonna kind of execute someone, I'm not gonna give them life prison. Why are you giving them 15 years? I mean, it's sort of something or nothing, isn't it? Anyway, anyway, he, he then manages wriggle free again. He's out on 1971 on. On. On inverted commas health grounds. He lives out his life perfectly happily. He's much fated. There's lots of. Lots of former SS types sort of gather around him for kind of reunions in HA returns to South Parole at one point where he sort of fated as an honored guest and the amazing thing is he outlives every single one of these of the players in this story Every single one dies on the.

[Al Murray]

17Th of July 1984 aged 84 in this duel we have presented to you. He outlives and out foxes everyone. He's the man who gets the furthest. Quite Extraordinary. I mean this, this idea of Nazi competition that you'd. You know, there can only be one. Maybe Carl Wolf is the. Is the one.

[James Holland]

He's the one. He outlives them all.

[Al Murray]

Truly extraordinary. Well, thanks Jim. That. That has been the most amazing story to.

[James Holland]

It's bonkers isn't it?

[Al Murray]

To try and get my head around. We hope you've all got your heads around it too. If you want to listen to these together though I assume that because you've got to the end of this this, this will fall on vaguely deaf ears. You could become a. We have ways officer class member on our podcast channel. You could become a patron on our Patreon and you could come to. We have Waze Fest 12th, 14th September. A festival at which this kind of war waffle is. Is normal as usual and it's happening right there in front of you tickets@we havewaysfest.co.uk we look forward to seeing you there. Thanks everyone for listening. We will see you all again very, very soon. Cheerio.

[James Holland]

Cheerio.