The Duel: The Nazi Escape Plan (Part 1)

Summary

WW2 Pod: We Have Ways of Making You Talk
Episode: The Duel: The Nazi Escape Plan (Part 1)
Release Date: December 10, 2024
Hosts: Al Murray & James Holland

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Introduction

In this gripping first part of "The Duel," host James Holland presents a two-part series exploring the intricate rivalry between two high-ranking Nazi officials, Ernst Kaltenbrunner and Carl Wolf. Set against the tumultuous backdrop of the final months of World War II, Al Murray and James Holland delve deep into the strategies, personal ambitions, and desperate maneuvers of these men as they navigate the collapsing Third Reich.

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1. Understanding the SS Hierarchy

Timestamp: 04:00

The episode begins with a detailed explanation of the SS ranks, clarifying the positions of Obergruppenführer and Reichsführer Heinrich Himmler.

James Holland:
"Obergruppenführer is an SS rank that is like a two-star general. It's just one tier below the Reichsführer, who is Heinrich Himmler, essentially the field marshal of the SS."
(04:00)

This hierarchy sets the stage for understanding the power dynamics and personal relationships within the SS, emphasizing the limited number of individuals who could ascend to such high ranks.

---

2. Introducing the Rivals: Ernst Kaltenbrunner vs. Carl Wolf

Timestamp: 10:54

The focus shifts to the two central figures of the episode:

• Carl Wolf:
  A 44-year-old lawyer, Wolf is depicted as clever, charming, and a natural diplomat. Born in 1900, he leverages his legal expertise and charisma to climb the SS ranks, becoming the highest police officer in Italy.

• Ernst Kaltenbrunner:
  An imposing figure standing at 6'7" with dueling scars, Kaltenbrunner is portrayed as silent, brooding, and deeply entrenched in the Nazi regime's darkest operations.

Al Murray:
"Carl Wolf is the second-tier leader in the SS, just below Himmler. He's incredibly charming and a natural diplomat, whereas Kaltenbrunner is more the silent, brooding type."
(11:35)

This contrast highlights their differing approaches to power and survival within the crumbling Nazi hierarchy.

---

3. The Endgame Strategies

Timestamp: 16:00

As the war nears its end, both Kaltenbrunner and Wolf recognize the impending defeat and the peril of maintaining their positions. Their strategies diverge sharply:

• Wolf's Approach:
  He explores clandestine negotiations with the Allies, aiming to secure a surrender that could save his and his organization's lives without further bloodshed.

Al Murray:
"Wolf wants to save lives and see the war come to a swift end without unnecessary German casualties."
(16:16)

• Kaltenbrunner's Approach:
  Driven purely by self-preservation, his motivations lack the moral complexities seen in Wolf's actions.

---

4. Clandestine Peace Negotiations

Timestamp: 25:02

Wolf initiates secret meetings with the Office of Strategic Services (OSS), specifically targeting Allen Dulles, leveraging his connections through Italian industrialist Luigi Parilli. This risky endeavor involves navigating through neutral Switzerland to establish communication channels.

James Holland:
"Reaching out to Allen Dulles is Wolf's top priority. He knows the risks involved but sees it as his only way out."
(31:23)

These negotiations, codenamed "Sunrise," represent Wolf's desperate bid to negotiate an early surrender, hoping to mitigate the impending devastation.

---

5. Operation Bernhard and Counterfeiting

Timestamp: 41:10

The episode delves into Operation Bernhard, a Nazi plan to destabilize the British economy through mass production of counterfeit banknotes. Spearheaded by Karl Wolff, this operation utilizes Jewish prisoners from Sachsenhausen to operate high-capacity printing presses.

James Holland:
"Counterfeiting was initially aimed at flooding the British economy, but by 1944, it expanded to include dollars, further complicating the Allies' financial stability."
(41:19)

The operation showcases the lengths to which the Nazis would go to undermine their enemies, even as their own regime teetered on the brink of collapse.

---

6. The Art Hoard and Safeguarding Priceless Works

Timestamp: 45:02

Amidst the chaos, Wolf orchestrates the collection and safekeeping of over 11,000 works of art intended for Hitler’s envisioned "Führermuseum." Collaborating with SS Standartenführer Professor Alexander Langsdorff and art curators, they relocate these masterpieces to secure locations in South Tyrol.

Al Murray:
"Wolf is meticulously inventorying the art pieces as an insurance policy, ensuring he has leverage whether placing them in Allied hands or keeping them from Himmler."
(49:44)

This dual-purpose collection serves both as a bargaining chip and a means to preserve cultural heritage, reflecting Wolf's strategic foresight.

---

7. Escalating Tensions and Failed Ultimatums

Timestamp: 56:47

As Wolf edges closer to securing a surrender, Kaltenbrunner becomes suspicious of his maneuvers. Himmler intervenes, ordering Wolf to fly to Berlin, thrusting him into the heart of Nazi power as his escape plan begins to unravel.

James Holland:
"Just as Wolf is about to secure a significant surrender agreement, Kaltenbrunner exposes his plans, forcing him to confront the very leadership he sought to escape from."
(56:47)

This turn of events sets the stage for the intense rivalry and high-stakes power struggle that define the unfolding saga.

---

Conclusion of Part 1

As the episode concludes, listeners are left on the edge of their seats, anticipating the next installment where the duel between Wolf and Kaltenbrunner escalates amidst the final throes of the Nazi regime.

Al Murray:
"Who will triumph, Wolf or Kaltenbrunner? Find out in the next episode."
(57:38)

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Notable Quotes

• Carl Wolf on Premature Defeat:
  "We're fighting like rats in a sack. They must think we're in the same situation as us."
  (13:56)

• On the Complexity of Nazi Loyalty:
  "Wolf is thinking, yeah, I'll massage that, but I'll get around it."
  (54:58)

• James Holland on Operation Bernhard:
  "By 1944, the counterfeiting operation expanded to include dollars, complicating Allied financial stability."
  (41:19)

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Key Takeaways

• Power Dynamics Within the SS:
  The rivalry between Wolf and Kaltenbrunner exemplifies the internal conflicts and power struggles that plagued the Nazi hierarchy during WWII's final days.

• Desperate Maneuvers for Survival:
  Both officials employ extreme tactics—ranging from counterfeit operations to clandestine negotiations—to secure their survival as the Third Reich disintegrates.

• Moral Ambiguities and Self-Preservation:
  Wolf's actions reveal a complex character torn between ideological commitment and pragmatic self-preservation, contrasting sharply with Kaltenbrunner's singular focus on survival.

---

Looking Ahead

In Part 2 of "The Duel," Al Murray and James Holland will continue to unravel the intense confrontation between Ernst Kaltenbrunner and Carl Wolf, exploring how their personal agendas influence the final chapters of WWII.

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Join the Conversation:
For exclusive content, live streams, and ad-free listening, become a member at patreon.com/wehaveways. Explore more Goalhanger Podcasts at www.goalhanger.com.

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Disclaimer: The events and characters discussed in this podcast are based on historical records and scholarly research, aiming to provide an accurate portrayal of the complexities within the Nazi regime during World War II.

Transcript

[Al Murray]

Thank you for listening to we have ways of making you talk. Sign up to our Patreon to receive bonus content, live streams and our weekly newsletter with money off books and museum visits as well. Plus early access to all live show tickets. That's patreon.com we haveways.

[James Holland]

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[Unknown]

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[Al Murray]

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[Unknown]

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[Al Murray]

Learn [e-mail] credit card based on the February 2024 Nielsen report now more than ever, Lowes knows you don't just want a low price, you want the lowest price. And with our lowest price guarantee, you can count for competitive prices on all your home improvement projects. If you find a qualifying lower price somewhere else on the same item, we'll match it Lowes we help you save. Price Match applies the same item current price at qualifying retailers. Exclusions and terms apply. Learn how we'll match [e-mail] Lowest Price Guarantee Kaltenbrunner always appeared to me be a very reserved type who was hard to get near as a man to man. Heydrich was like that too, only more cynical. All the same, he had certain human qualities. He never succeeded in getting on the same level as Reichsfuhrer or the Fuhrer mentally. After Hijack's death, I tried to transfer my friendship to him as Hijack's successor because the Wolf Hijack friendship was one of the pillars of the original ss. I offered him my friendship and even used do to him, but he never made any use of my offer. That was of course Ober Gruppenfuhrer Carl Wolf, who we are going to come to know in these next couple of episodes. Welcome to Way of Ways of making you Talk the Second World War podcast with me, Al Murray and James Holland and what we thought we'd do. Jim is present a two part series called the Duel, as we've titled it.

[Unknown]

Nasty Badasses, which is a.

[Al Murray]

About the very end of the Second World War.

[Unknown]

Oh, my goodness, mate.

[Al Murray]

In Europe, in Italy principally. Although events will take us all over, all the way up to Berlin and then north of Berlin and some weird.

[Unknown]

Corners and weird old asylums.

[Al Murray]

Yes. Peculiar places as we enter the end game.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Al Murray]

And the duel is between two. I'm not going to call them gentlemen.

[Unknown]

Two leading Nazi officials.

[Al Murray]

Two leading Nazi officials, by the way. Actually, this is the thing I think we need to clear up. Obergruppenfuhrer is an SS rank.

[Unknown]

Yes, it's a general. It's like a full jump.

[Al Murray]

It's basically a general, isn't it? Yeah, it's a two star. A two star equivalent. I looked this up last night because they're kind of opaque, the ranks, aren't they? Because if you're an oberpuffer, you waff an SS as well. Or how does that rank.

[Unknown]

They're as high as you can go Reichsfuhrer, and then the next one down is Obergruppenfuhrer.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. So you're basically. Because Himmler is, he said, who runs the ss. Of course. Heinrich Himmler is the Reich Fuhrer, the chinless.

[Unknown]

Wonderful.

[Al Murray]

So he's essentially a field marshal, but within the parallel organ that is the ss. Yes. And so because some people in the SS are not Waffen SS as well, are they? Some people do command armies, some people don't. Some come and go.

[Unknown]

Algemein ss, which is the kind of the camps and all the rest of it.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And then there's a Totem Kopf Verband. Yeah. Which is the people that do the death camps and concentration camps. They are also part of the Algorman ss, which is also part of the sick.

[Al Murray]

Yes. So there's that overlap immediately. Yeah, exactly.

[Unknown]

And then there's the sd, which is part of the rsha, which is the Reich Sicker Heinzdienst or whatever it's called.

[Al Murray]

I always think when you look at that word Sika, it's secure. That's how it's security. It's Zika. It's the same. It's the same word.

[Unknown]

Sickerheits is sd. So. No, the RSHA is the Reich Security Office, basically. And that incorporates the creepo, which is the ordinary police, the Gestapo, which is the secret police, and also the sd, which is the secret Intelligence service. Yeah, yeah, I think that's right. It's all very confusing and in normal Nazi ways, it kind of sort of doubles up a little bit. But Karl Wolf and Ernest Kaltenbrunner are the two necks down after himleep in the SS hierarchy. And actually it's quite hard to get high up. So, for example, Klaus Barbie, the Butcher of Lyon, is a Sturmbandfuhrer, which is equivalent of a Hauptman, a captain. That's all he is. And it's quite hard to get much higher than that. And you can be a divisional commander as a Standartenfuhrer.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Which is effectively a colonel.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And a Brigada Fuhrer is obviously a brigadier.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. But basically to be one of these people you've had to have been around since the 30s, you've had an awful lot of sucking up essentially to people like Himmler.

[Unknown]

Yes. And within the SS there's just unparalleled levels of rivalry and hatred and all the rest of it. And Karl Wolf is. He's a very interesting character because he was a senior figure in the SS and Himmler's right hand man, but he was also the liaison officer for Himmler and Hitler and the Fuhrer headquarters.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

So he was around Hitler a huge amount.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And then he got in a bit of trouble because he divorced his wife and married someone else. And Himmler took a dim view of this because, you know, he said morally upstanding. This happens over and over again. And it's just so.

[Al Murray]

I knew we were going to come to that in his life story. So basically, before we get any further in, what we're talking about is basically the two second men.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Al Murray]

In the ss, Ernst Kaltenbrunner and Carl Wolf, who are both Obergrup and Furious, who are one tier down, they're on the next tier down. The wedding cake of the ss.

[Unknown]

Yes. And because they're the same rank and they're the same tier, they hate each other.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. And of course, I mean, what's interesting about this is this is how Hitler runs things. So it's how Himmler runs things as well.

[Unknown]

And how Goering runs things and how everyone else.

[Al Murray]

Everyone runs things. There's two deputies who vie and fight.

[Unknown]

You know, von Schreppenberg and Rommel. Yeah, exactly. You know, at Normandy.

[Al Murray]

Exactly.

[Unknown]

Different jobs.

[Al Murray]

It's why everything's going so well.

[Unknown]

So what we're looking at here is right at the end of the war.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Both of them know they've got dirt all over their hands.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah.

[Unknown]

That their involvement in the ss, their involvement at the highest level pretty much in the Nazi regime is not going to look good.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

They're also looking to how they can save their necks.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And they suddenly realize, Wolf and Countenbrenner, that they're actually pitting themselves against each other.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Unknown]

They can be Ernie van Winner and basically the prize is life.

[Al Murray]

Not going to the gallows.

[Unknown]

Not going to the gallows.

[Al Murray]

Not going to the gallows.

[Unknown]

And for the loser, you know, it's very gladiatorial. The farm is turned down and it's good night, Charlie. Yeah. So they are increasingly pitted each other and they have different strengths and weaknesses. And most of it, the vast majority of it, plays out the Alps in the south too, which is. Was Austrian, part of the Austrian Empire. Then became Italian.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Then in. When the Italians signed the armistice in September 1943, the Germans morphed it back into the Third Reich, into the Greater Reich. And so it had its own. Go lighter, its own sort of governor chap called Franz Hofer, and it became the Alpen Vand. And so it's here, all in this area around here, this sort of between world, between the southern Austria and northern Italy. And Wolf, by this point is the highest police officer and leader in Italy, which means that he is effectively running the show from an administrative point of view in Italy. So Kesselring is the military commander, Wolf is the administrative answer. And although Mussolini has been reinstated as the kind of sort of puppet dictator of the socialist Italian Republic based at Salo on Lake Garda, it is Wolf that is pulling all the strings.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

The reason he's been sent there away from the court of Hitler is because of this divorce of his wife and this remarrying.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Of the contest. Gazella. And Himmler's second in view of this, and so banished him slightly.

[Al Murray]

Exactly. So, yes. He marries the Countess Ingeborg Marrow von Bernstorff.

[Unknown]

Bernstorff, that's it.

[Al Murray]

And Himmler, I mean, this happens again, doesn't it? Basically, someone gets married and is that Himmler, like, jealous that someone else has got Wolf's attention, or does. Does Himmler fancy the countess?

[Unknown]

It's the same with Hans Frank. You know, they take a very dim view of his philandering and stuff. You know, the family is.

[Al Murray]

Yes, but, you know, they're all at it themselves.

[Unknown]

Yeah, but that's not the point. The point is go and have a bit of, you know, fandangoing, but don't split up the family. The family unit is the absolute beating heart of Nazi ideology.

[Al Murray]

Well, yes. Goebbels is persuaded to stay with his wife, isn't he, as a similar example, isn't he? He's for his sort of obsessions with film stars and stuff, he's, he's persuaded to stay at home and after all, the end of the war goes to the grave with us. So I mean it is very odd though, these sort of moral fluctuations.

[Unknown]

Well, and Himmler does it all the time in those, you know, in his letters to his wife and all the rest of it. They're incredibly tender and sweet and touching and you know how the little children, all the rest of it, you know, the family, the family unit is, is really a kind of important part of it. So from the point of view of Wolf, who is the, you know, second tier, you know, one drop down on the tier of hierarchy of the ss, that's not setting a good ex.

[Al Murray]

Paul, I just think.

[Unknown]

I know, I know it's possible.

[Al Murray]

These are people, people running death camps and so on.

[Unknown]

I mean, get yourself into the head of Himler. Okay.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I'd rather not if it's you.

[Unknown]

But that's what's going on. And so anyway, so he's sent off to Italy. But what that means is he's sufficiently high of rank that people will do whatever he says.

[Al Murray]

Yes. And not ask questions.

[Unknown]

But he's also now sufficiently removed from the absolute, very core of the Nazi regime that he can also got a little bit of flexibility, wiggle room. Yes. So let's just tell you very briefly about Wolf.

[Al Murray]

Well, yes. Who is he? How old is he?

[Unknown]

Yeah, so he. In 1945. He is 44. He's born in 1900. He is going to turn 45 on the 13th of May. Yeah, 1945. He's a lawyer. Lawyer, yeah. He's very clever and he's very charming and he's quick and he has a wide forehead, prematurely sort of slightly graying hair. He's got quite thin lips but he's got quite twinkly eyes and he's a really good natural diplomat. He knows how to get people onside and he's quick witted so he, he can think on his feet.

[Al Murray]

It worked in advertising, had an advertising.

[Unknown]

Agency, he's had an advertising.

[Al Murray]

Both of these guys have legal training, which I think is one of the really interesting things. And very often that kind of goes into the, you know, how could a lawyer end up being evil? Well, well, you know, let me tell you about the last time I bought a house, you know, like. Yes, they are just people and obviously ambitious people and clever people and they're both fully committed to the movement, you know, Wilson, the SS before Hitler takes power.

[Unknown]

So yeah, 1931.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. He's seen it coming. Rather than joined the status quo, as it were.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

And then Carlton Brunner, who's his rival in this situation, really is your absolute central casting. Scars on his dueling scars on his face.

[Unknown]

He's incredibly tall and thin.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

So he's. He's 6 foot 7 and he's got this lean face and a slightly sort of hawkish nose. He's not bad looking. He's just, you know, he's striking. Yeah, he's a really striking looking character.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

But he's got dueling scars on his cheeks, you know, which is this weird thing that people of a certain background like to get at university.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. Well, you stand off from one another with the blade, don't you, and hold it up and lunge at each other's faces. And the point is the dueling scars, to show you've done it.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Al Murray]

And to show you've endured it and you don't have the wound stitched or dressed you. You know, it's all this sort of mad bollocks. I mean, a society without going on. Little wonder that the intelligent people are plugged into violence and pain as a means of self expression and so. And so on. And he's helped.

[Unknown]

Yes, yes. This is the ra, isn't he?

[Al Murray]

Yeah. I mean, we're better off with the.

[Unknown]

Abbreviation Reich Main Security Office.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

So he's also. He's Austrian, whereas Wolf is Ger.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah.

[Unknown]

That's a whole nother layer of kind of, you know, because Hitler's Austrian but he's also German. Yeah. You know, it's. So there's this kind of like. Particularly within the ss, there's an Austrian Nazi camp and then there's a German Nazi camp. Yeah.

[Al Murray]

You see. Do you think the Austrian guys think they're even more in tune with Hitler because they are Austrian Germans.

[Unknown]

Yes. But they're also a bit chippy because they're. Johnny Cum lady is only joined in 1938. They're not German in the way they're.

[Al Murray]

Hitler's chippy about being German because he's not German. You know, it's kind of like one of the things I was really struck by when. When looking over this was it is again and again and again, divide and rule is the light motif that runs through absolutely everything that happens in Nazi Germany. Right to the point where when it comes to the surrenders, their expectation is that that's what's going on in the Allied camp. Because it's all they can think about.

[Unknown]

Yep.

[Al Murray]

Every move they'd make is an attempt to divide the Allies one way or another, because that's what they're all doing to each other. So they're thinking we're fighting like rats in a sack. They must be, too. And it's only a matter of time before we all split up and fall apart because we can't bear each other. Yeah. They must be in the same situation as us. Whereas on the other side is the Allies going, well, surely they can see that they've lost the war if you're objective about it. From a.

[Unknown]

Yes, from a material. They all absolutely love one another.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Unknown]

So there is this amazing moment where Eva Braun, Eva Hitler body has been discovered and the person who picks her up is Martin Borman.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And then Erich Kempke, who is Hitler's chauffeur, then immediately takes. Snatches her off Bormann because he knows how much Eva hated Martin Bormann because they're both rivals for the love. And so he thinks it would be undignified, you know, she'd be really disappointed to know that she was taken to her cremation point by Bormann rather than him. What the heck? Anyway, to get back to Carlton, Bruno and. And Wolf. So Carlton Brunner is sort of. He has a certain charm and charisma. He's got charisma. He put. It's of the kind of sort of brooding, kind of powerful type.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

He's an imposing figure.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

He doesn't have much of a sense of humor, whereas Wolf most definitely does.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah.

[Unknown]

And Wolf is sort of easy, charming, and, you know, call me do, and all this kind of stuff. And, you know, Carlton Brunner's all sort of buttoned up and kind of sort of corrupted by power and all. Well, they all are. They are chalk.

[Al Murray]

Complete chalk and cheese. But also absolutely, you know, where he goes to have kind of archetypes, you know, the cultured but murderous, and then the silent, brooding, but murderous.

[Unknown]

Basically, they tick all those boxes. This is where it all came from. It's there.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

But both of them, by the early part of 1945, have realized that the writing is on the wall. In fact, actually, Wolf has already kind of, in the previous year in 1940, has made some forays. Fire the Vatican.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

About looking into channels to kind of. For peace. Because what he recognizes is, I think he genuinely realizes that the war is over and it's pointless to keep on fighting and killing people. He doesn't want to kill Germans, he doesn't want to Kill North Europeans and Americans and British. I mean, Jesus is a different matter.

[Al Murray]

That's the interesting thing. They are starting to say Germans are going to die unnecessarily. We're going to get more Germans killed, and we don't really want to do that. And actually, to hear that sort of weird glimmer of compassion in all this is quite jarring, isn't it? Because that is definitely Wolf's motivation, isn't it?

[Unknown]

Yes. That isn't Kaltenbrunner's motivation. His motivation is just, how can I get out of this?

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And so Kaltenbrunner is in a slightly trickier situation than Wolf on one level, because there is talk of the Alpine redoubt. And the Alpine redoubt is this triangle of area between Bad Reichenhall, Berkesgaden and Salzburg. You know, it's very mountainous around there. And that is where they're talking about doing the Last Stand. And the whole idea is that Fuhrer headquarters is going to move down to the Reichschance, his garden, which still is still there, incidentally, and there's plenty of tunnels and the secret sidings and stuff for him to go into, and bunkers and blah, blah, blah, and bunkers all under the Obersalzberg, which is where the Berghoff is, you know, Hitler's house and Bormans and Gerings and all the rest, and where the Karlstein house is and the Eagle's Nest. So that's where they're going to do it. And Carlton Broder is absolutely up to his neck in all this and knows all about it, but at the same time, obviously, clearly thinks that this is a complete waste of time and not going to happen. He's also.

[Al Murray]

He knows that the game's up, doesn't he?

[Unknown]

They both know the game is up. But Kaltenbrunner has to maintain the pretense of continuing the Alpine redoubt. Yeah, because Wolf doesn't have to.

[Al Murray]

He's not got Wolf's wiggle room because he's still in town, as it were, and under the microscope, isn't he? Is the point.

[Unknown]

But Kaltenbrun is sort of home turf is Vienna, but it's also Innsbruck. It's also that kind of, you know, the North Tyrol rather than the south to roll. So the kind of Alps is very much his kind of manor as well. Yeah, but also Berlin and the, you know, the Fuhrer headquarters and the Reichstory and all the rest of it.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Whereas Wolf's manor is very much now the South Tyrol, the Alpenvorland. And that means they're very close, both of them, to Switzerland. And Switzerland is neutral. And that is where Alan Dulles is.

[Al Murray]

Yes. Well this is very interesting, isn't it? Because people who know the history of OSS and the CIA will know the name Alan Dulles pretty well. He's like. Yeah.

[Unknown]

So the USS is. The Office for Strategic Services is sort of halfway between MI6 and SOE, the special operations Executive. So it is. It's a foreign overseas secret intelligence Service, but it's also a sabotage operation. You know, it's all doing that. The kind of SOE stuff as well.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah, because the Americans have copied this from the British, haven't they? Because they don't. They don't have any of this in place before they think spying's on. Gentlemanly. You don't read the other chaps messages.

[Unknown]

There's no such thing as the CIA.

[Al Murray]

None of it. A lot like American military power that we take completely for granted in the CIA, which of course people take completely forgot to the point where they think it's involved in absolutely everything. I mean, maybe this. For all we know, Jim, this podcast is CIA from. We're just not aware of it. It. For all we know, Gohanger could actually be a CIA puppet organization.

[Unknown]

Or fsb.

[Al Murray]

Or fsb, it's just no way of knowing.

[Unknown]

Or kgb, nkvd, oss, whatever.

[Al Murray]

As long as the checks keep coming, I don't care.

[Unknown]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. I'm not prepared to sell myself. You're no better than Ernst Kaltenbruner, you swine.

[Al Murray]

I mean, they do have on. The rest is confidential. There is now a CIA agent on the book. So I think you could quite firmly argue really we're just another CIA puppet organization. Certainly I've been accused of being an MI6 frontman in my time.

[Unknown]

I never have. I never have. Rachel used to claim that she was still working for SMERSH when I first knew her. Said she was a secret operative and even though SMERSH had been put down, that it was still secretly, clandestinely in operation and she was working for them.

[Al Murray]

Anyway, the Americans set up back to Dulles. Oh yeah. So Roosevelt says to an old pal of his, Wild Bill Donovan, who's a.

[Unknown]

He's completely fantastic, by the way. He's an absolutely amazing guy. Good looking, gung ho type.

[Al Murray]

Says to him, do me a thing that does these jobs, that does the bit of MI6, a bit of SOE and all that. And it's quite interesting because SOE, after all maybe one of SOE's problems is that it's running in opposition to MI6 a lot of the time, or at least in competition with it. Although if you're a French person on the ground, you don't give a damn who's for which.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Or if you're Claude Dancer, you feel you're running the whole thing anyway.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, exactly. But the Americans. The Americans have got one body to do this rather than several, which is, I think, probably an enormous leap forward, arguably. But Dulles is recruited even by. By Donovan, even before OSS is formed.

[Unknown]

Yes. Well, formally formed.

[Al Murray]

Yes, officially. And he's in Switzerland. And Switzerland, as you say, certainly by this stage of the war, you know, is an ideal place to have someone running a mission, essentially, because he's in Bern, so he's in direct contact with Washington, but also with your favorite soldier, Alexander the Great, Field Marshal Sir Harold Alexander, who's Supreme Allied Commander in. In the Med. So he is. Absolutely. If you're Kaltenbruner or Wolf, if you're going to go to anybody, he's your man.

[Unknown]

Dulles is your man. And Dallas is super smart, a super smooth operator. He's a lawyer, but he's also a diplomat.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

He's been part of the American delegation at the Paris Peace Conference following the end of the First World. Yeah. He's later a legal advisor on arms limitations to the League of Nations.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And so in the 1930s, he's met Hitler, he's met Mussolini, he's met a lot of these leading Nazis. He speaks a number of languages, including French and German. So he's. He's incredibly well placed.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

So clearly, contacting the oss, and particularly contacting Dulles is absolutely number one top priority if you're wanting to kind of do clandestine peace feelers. And if you're Wolf or Carlton, Brother, the problem is, is, you know, the only way you can do this is with go between. And these go betweens just don't grow on trees. I mean, you know, they're kind of really hard to come by, and they have to be trusted, and it's really, really difficult. Absolutely no question that in this, Wolf has the advantage.

[Al Murray]

Well, because after all, if you're Dulles, you don't. You cannot be seen meeting Countenbruner Wolf. No, because they're himlers everywhere. Number twos. You can't be seen with shits that big. If you're Campbell or Wolf, the reverse applies, because, after all, you live in a world of paranoia and permanent treachery. So you're, you know, if you actually get you.

[Unknown]

So the moment you do this and you, you kind of steer off the path of righteous Nazi ness.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

You know, you're in big trouble. You're taking. So both these guys are taking enormous risk. Just even doing sort of gentle forays to try and sort of, you know, see whether they can make contact.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wolf knows the game's up because he's spoken to some mates who were at the Ardennes. Yeah, in the Liebestandart, who said They've been promised 3,000 aircraft and none had appeared.

[Unknown]

But I think, you know, I think.

[Al Murray]

He knew before then. I think anyone paying attention, I know.

[Unknown]

He said that, but I mean, you know, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out that, you know, anyone.

[Al Murray]

Paying attention knows by now, I mean, or should have known.

[Unknown]

And then you've got to think, oh my God, get out of this mess.

[Al Murray]

How am I going to extract myself.

[Unknown]

From this mess, from the mechanizations of the Nazi state?

[Al Murray]

So whose wolves go between?

[Unknown]

Well, his go between is not a particularly brilliant go between because he doesn't have anyone, you know, he doesn't have a kind of sort of wealthy Swiss businessman, he doesn't have any Italians who can kind of, you know, just slip across the border. Yeah, he doesn't have any of these people. So the contact is actually made by one of Kaltenbrunner's direct SS agents, another Austrian called Sturm Banfield. Wilhelm Hertel. And Hurtle is a really, really interesting character. He's absolutely Iago like, kind of Machiavellian, kind of greasy mover and shaker. He's become an ardent Nazi as a teenager and joined the SS at 16, then later recruited by the SD in Vienna. But it's not until Kazarona takes over the RSHA following the the assassination of Heydrich in Prague in June 1942. June, July 1940. Whenever it was summer of 1942 that he gets onto kind of Kaltenbrunner's radar, who takes him on because he's an Austrian, because he's also clearly a very, very competent and intelligent mover and shaker. And it is his hurtl who manages to find effectively find Mussolini and helps plan the operation by Otto Skorzeny that springs Mussolini from his mountaintop incarceration in the Abruzzi Mountains on the Gran Sasso in the Bruzzi mountains back in September 1943. He was also directly involved in the arrest of Count Galeazzo Ciano, who is Mussolini's so. And the former foreign minister and Hustar.

[Al Murray]

Is one of those sort of amazing windows into Mussolini government. Yeah. And always come up.

[Unknown]

But also Hertel has been very, very involved in building up contacts in Hungary.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Which is vital once the Nazis occupy the country in March 1944. And which then absolutely directly helps seal the fate of Hungary's 725,000 Jews. Not least because Hertl also knows Eichmann.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. So he's key to the Holocaust in Hungary. So, I mean, as emissaries go, is maybe not the best person, but then he's entirely representative of the organization.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Al Murray]

In that respect, isn't he?

[Unknown]

Exactly. So Hertl is trying to make contacts to the oss. Carterboron has said, right, get onto this, get onto it and make contacts.

[Al Murray]

Does that involve going to Bern, sitting in a bar and saying to the barman, do you know Allen Dulles? I mean, how does it work?

[Unknown]

Yeah. Okay. So they are able to move in and out of Switzerland a little bit and particularly for the Austrian side. So Bern is, I think is in the German space speaking better Switzerland, isn't it? So he's able to kind of move in in civvy clothes and all that kind of stuff.

[Al Murray]

And.

[Unknown]

Yeah, he just asks questions and you kind of say to me, you know, how am I get to discuss me?

[Al Murray]

I wonder if you know where Ellen Dallas is. Yeah, Petersen.

[Unknown]

I suppose so. I don't know.

[Al Murray]

It's interesting, isn't it?

[Unknown]

History doesn't entirely relate.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

But anyway, so he's. He's first to be given instructions, you know, so Kaldaman is first off the peg in trying to make this happen, but the person to actually get to Dulles is Wolf.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. Right. Okay. So while the SS's man in Bern.

[Unknown]

Is at a bar reading newspapers and drinking.

[Al Murray]

Reading his newspaper and smoking cigarettes and he's got. He's the one with the blood red carnation. That's who he is.

[Unknown]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the trilby close over his eyes.

[Al Murray]

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[Al Murray]

Welcome back to we have Ways of Making youg Talk. The Duel Part one, Part two of Part one in which it's Kelton Brenner versus Wolf. The battle for survival. Who is the weakest link.

[Unknown]

And in. In the early stakes. Katlinbrun is ahead.

[Al Murray]

Katlinbrun is ahead. But Wolff may have the edge. So their attempts to make contact. And these are early. I mean because after all the surrender in Italy signed on the 2nd of May and this is going on well. Well before that. Isn't it? That's the truth.

[Unknown]

Yeah. So. So at the very end of February 1945.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Carl Wolf is holding a secret meeting at his incredibly well appointed villa on Lake Garda which is just sort of in the foothills of the Alps. And those attending are enemy of the show Standard and Fuhrer. Walter Ralph, who we met before and we talked to Philippe Sands about and he's obsessed with. And he was very bad. Then he got away and got to Chile. He. He was the man who said give me one good SS division, I'll have this country licked into shape in 1962. Chile. That's right.

[Al Murray]

Didn't he? Yeah. And then you've. Eugen Dolman.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Al Murray]

Who's an art historian.

[Unknown]

Ralph at this point is head of the SS in Milan.

[Al Murray]

By the way. Yeah.

[Unknown]

So he's one of Wolf's men.

[Al Murray]

And he invented the mobile gas chamber. That's the degree of commitment to the cause. There it is. Eugen Dolman is an art historian. German ambassador of the Vatican Gruppen. Wilhelm Haasta who's an SS general in the sd.

[Unknown]

So he's Schellenberg. So head of the SD is Walter Schellenberg, who works directly underneath Kaltenbrunner, and the SD are then spread around the kind of northern parts of northern cities. And the headquarters of the sd, the Sitka Heinzdienst in Italy, is in Verona.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And that's Haasta. And Haasta is directly under the command of both Wolff and Kaltenbrunner. Because he's sd.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

So the SD is part of the rsha, but because he's in Italy, he's under Wolf's jurisdiction.

[Al Murray]

And in your minds, you need to hold on to the fact that there's an art historian involved in some of this, because as we'll see. Oh, yes, you might ask yourself, why are the Germans bothering with Italy at this stage? Why not go back to the Brenner Pass? Put a great big cork in it, stop the Allies, you know, give Italy up. What's the point? Put a great big bung in the Brenner Pass so that the Allies can't come up through the Alps. It's impossible. Because there's plenty of very good reasons in Italy for sticking around, aren't there? Especially if you're thinking about after the war.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Al Murray]

And bargaining chips.

[Unknown]

Exactly that.

[Al Murray]

Essentially.

[Unknown]

So Haas is a particularly attractive character who's been responsible in large part for rounding up many of the Dutch Jews, including Anne Frank. Frank.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

But he's also now moved to Italy and it's having a lovely time up there just swanning around.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

But probably the most important person who's there is Luigi Parilli and he is a wealthy right wing Italian industrialist with very strong business connections and personal connections in Switzerland.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And he has suggested to Wolf that he can try and make contact with Alan Dulles.

[Al Murray]

Right.

[Unknown]

And Wolf goes, das is good.

[Al Murray]

So Pirelli, you leave it with me, I fix it for you. I mean, when you catalog the people like this, you think, why on earth are the Americans possibly going to speak to them? You know, because they're such damaged goods, aren't they? In every respect. And you know, if we're talking unconditional surrender. Yeah, you're not gonna, you're not gonna parley with Kaltenborn or Wolf's representatives on Earth Anyway, they go to Switzerland on the 3rd of March.

[Unknown]

Yes. They do this because Pini knows a guy called Max Housman. Hussmann runs a private school in Switzerland and he's fabulously well connected. It's one of the poshest, smartest schools. And so because of that he's all the, you know, all the industrialists, all the smart people. In Switzerland, of course, people around in the Alps, they send their kids to Usman, so he knows them. And Hussman is really good friends with. We know Dallas, but He also knows Dr. Gero von Schultz Gaveenitz and Von Schultz Gaveenitz is a German born American businessman based in Switzerland. Zealand.

[Al Murray]

Right.

[Unknown]

He's very much on the Allied side.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

But knows all the right people. And he also knows Eugen Dolman who is, you know, this cultured art historian.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And that's because they deal in that world where because they're so rich, they have nice works of art and all the rest of it.

[Al Murray]

Now there's a lot of works of art floating about at this point.

[Unknown]

Yes, and there are. And von Given it's is really tight with Dulles. He's his right hand man in the OSS as well as being this German born American businessman. But he's absolutely American.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

So gave in its Hussmann. These are exactly the kind of conduits and connections that Wolf needs. He rubs his hand together. So Pirelli and Dolman would both together go and travel to Switzerland and attempt to make contact with Dulles both through von Gaveenitz and through Max Houstman.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. And they basically Dulles demands that the SS that free Ferruccio Parry, who's an Italian resistance leader, and Antonio Usman, he demands that they're freed from captivity in Verona as a test to see if A, if he's serious and B, if he has any actual power. I suppose that's the other way of testing if he can call any shots. And it's amazing this Three days later, the 6th of March, Wolf says I'll free him and I accept the terms of unconditional surrender. Now this is really interesting because this is the thing that really leapt out at me, Jim, when I was reading your notes is that we talk an awful lot about out. It's Hitler's death that frees everyone from their oath. Right. That's the sort of the spell breaking dinner. Suddenly we can down tools if we want to. That's not what's going on here at all. Wolf's accepting the fur is still alive and he's absolutely sees this is the only way out.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

So for people this close to the Nazi center, there's plenty who are not bound by that oath. Right. Or there's enough. Or there's significant figures who are not.

[Unknown]

Well, anyone's got any sense. Yeah, well, exactly.

[Al Murray]

Which I think you could arg to. Maybe the oath thing doesn't quite stack up or Maybe it's not that powerful a magnet or whatever, I don't know, it's peculiar. Or anyone with any brains at least is thinking. And these are clever men. That's the other thing.

[Unknown]

But also think about what Wolf's got to do. Because if everyone says, hang on a minute, what are you doing? Playing out Parry, you know, I mean, Ferruccio Parry ends up being the first post war Italian Prime Minister. Well, there we are, you know, so he's a serious player in the kind of political opposition to fascist control in northern Italy. What's he doing and how does he justify this? Well, he justifies this by, you know, saying, you know, it means concessions and, you know, the quid pro quo is the Allies have promised to not bomb this and this was a small act. And, you know, he can bullshit.

[Al Murray]

He's still on thin ice.

[Unknown]

He's still on incredibly thin fights. I mean, I cannot stress enough just how incredibly high risk it is what Wolff is doing. And it's just about to get riskier because on the back of this, Dulles goes, okay, you're serious. Come to Switzerland then.

[Al Murray]

That's amazing.

[Unknown]

You know, for Wolf to go to Switzerland, you know, he can't be serious. Scene no, and it's amazing. So he goes by car that then joins a train that passes over the border at the got hard pass, which is up in kind of north west Italy. There, however, the snow is still so deep that the train can't get any further. So Wolf has to be, you know, Wolf. Wolf is basically on a train with the kind of, you know, in a compartment, guard outside, blinds down, the whole thing. So now he's got to get out and walk to several hundred yards where a Swiss train is waiting on the far side of the drifts. Yeah, but you know, hat down, it's kind of, you know, shades and hoodie kind of time.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

No one seems to recognize him. And he manages to get into another compartment with the blinds down and off he goes and they roll onto Zurich.

[Al Murray]

It's absolutely amazing, isn't it?

[Unknown]

And at this point, you know, he got there and Dulles is then having second thoughts, thinking, you know, is this a good idea?

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Oh, you know, should I do this? Should I just not least because the Soviets have got wind that there's these potential talks going on and they're like, hang on a minute, you can't do this about us.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And Wolf, Wolf says, if Wolf was trying to trick me, the consequences could be unpleasant. I could see the headlines. Envoy of President Roosevelt receives Highest SS officer. I mean. Yeah, that's exactly what it would be.

[Al Murray]

Well, and you're back to, you know, the, I mean, super turbocharged stink around what happened with Vichy, all that.

[Unknown]

Yeah. And everyone knows about this.

[Al Murray]

This. Yeah.

[Unknown]

But on the other hand, you know, the opportunity to meet.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

You know, the number two in the ss.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Second equal, obviously.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Is also just too good an opportunity to pass. So.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, you're not going to pass that up. If you can end the war early.

[Unknown]

Go to war and then you could.

[Al Murray]

Be there, save lives, you could be the guy who ended the Second World War. I mean, who wouldn't want to be that 00 hero?

[Unknown]

Which one?

[Al Murray]

Exactly.

[Unknown]

But he's got a number of safe houses in Zurich, including one on Gen first in the heart of the city. And he decides to, to, to meet him face to face. So he does. He says, okay, well, I'm going to keep you waiting a little bit. I'm going to insist on seeing Usmani and Pari first. Which he does.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

So keeps Wolf waiting in Max Hussman's Zurich apartment. And the hours are passing and, and you know, Wolf's pacing up and down in Husman's apartment and sort of going, then is when am I going to see head on this? And all this kind of stuff. But eventually he's kind of hustled out the back door, shuffled into a car, you know, and off he goes.

[Al Murray]

But also, I mean, every second for him, the longer he's there, the more exposed he. He is, you know, potentially, blah, blah, blah.

[Unknown]

And he says, I control the SS forces in Italy and I am willing to place myself and my entire organization at the disposal of the Allies to terminate hostilities.

[Al Murray]

But of course, the problem is here, he's only one of the people in charge.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

In Italy.

[Unknown]

Yep. He doesn't speak for the Wehrmacht. He only speaks for.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. And the Wehrmacht is, after all, smiling Albert, isn't it? It's Kesselring. It's Feld Marshal Kesselring.

[Unknown]

And we know how loyal he is to his.

[Al Murray]

Well, exactly. And here's a peculiar business, isn't it, that the Wehrmacht guy is more loyal right now than the SS guy.

[Unknown]

Yeah, yeah, I know. Just bonkers, isn't it? It's just again, it's one of the sort of strange paradoxes, the whole thing. But Wolf does have a very good relationship with Kesselring. I mean, you know, Wolf always makes it his business to try and be as friendly and charming and kind of get as many people on board as possible. And why Wouldn't you?

[Al Murray]

Because that's one of his talents.

[Unknown]

And so he does. So he has a very good relationship with that. The other key thing is that the bargaining chip that Wolf has is he does have. Have the Piranha Pass, which is the key access point. It's a key artery between the Southern Reich and Northern Italy.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Because it passes from Austria into South Tyrol, north to roll into the south to roll the.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

You know, which admitted, sort of strictly speaking, kind of morphed into the Reich, but it is the. It is the kind of route into Italy.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. Which of course, if Kesseling had any sense, he'd have fallen back to and, you know, even Dulles would be happening.

[Unknown]

But, you know, he talks a good talk and so he says, gentlemen, he says to Dulles, this is amazing. And Gavinitz, if you can be patient, I will hand you Italy on a silver platter.

[Al Murray]

Amazing.

[Unknown]

So, you know, so far, so good. But the other problem is he's got to get back to Bolzano, which is a sort of town in the South Tyrol, beautiful town in South Tyrol, and persuade Kesselring to fall into his plans. But, you know, that's not going to be that easy.

[Al Murray]

No.

[Unknown]

And things start to unravel very quickly. First as a message arrives that Kaltenborough wants to see him urgently in Innsbruck. Well, that suggests that Kaltenborn has got wind of what he's up to.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And someone sneaked, basically.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Then on the return trip, he's traveling back towards Lake Garda when his car is strafed by an Allied fighter plane. And he's incredibly, you know, some car gets knocked off the road and all the rest of. He's incredibly lucky to survive. Then, having got back to his. His villa on Lake Garda, he learns that Kesseling has been urgently summoned to Berlin. And the rumor has it that Hitler's about to appoint him to command all German forces in the West. You know, ob West. West. And that means that he'd be leaving Italy and a replacement, very possibly someone that Wolf doesn't know, would be taking over. So he's got to kind of start that relationship all over again.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Unknown]

Meanwhile, Wilhelm Hertel has been making contact with Dulles, although Kalten are not offering the surrender in Italy, but one in Austria.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, and that's significant though, because he wants to surrender the west rather than the Soviets.

[Unknown]

Yes, of course, course. But although it's Austria, the implication is that without Austria, you can't maintain Italy. So Italy then follows.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah. So Dulles Sort of thinks, I don't know about this hurtle guy.

[Unknown]

Yeah, yeah, there's. There's no Dolman, there's no Pilli.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, Right. So, I mean, at a glance now, Wolf seems to be ahead of Kaltenbrenner, doesn't he? Because after all, he is offered Italy on a silver platter. The not quite really.

[Unknown]

Well, Hertl has made contact with one of the of Dulles's men, but he hasn't got close, he hasn't got that.

[Al Murray]

He's not the face to face.

[Unknown]

He hasn't had a face to face. And he hasn't got the smooth passage to the king of the Oss court in burn that Wolf has access to food. Perilian Dolman.

[Al Murray]

Now, what we haven't done though, we've talked about how sort of SS these guys are and their active involvement in the stuff that the Nazi state has been doing in Europe. But what criminal activity are they also up to?

[Unknown]

Well, this is just amazing.

[Al Murray]

These guys are as bent as nine Bob notes that they literally printed themselves. Because this is the thing Cal Brunner sideline is making money, isn't it?

[Unknown]

Well, also, you can't put all your eggs in one basket of peace feelers through Alan Dulles to save you. You've got to have a plan B and you need a fairly big one. And whatever happens, you're going to need cash.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

You know, for bribery, for kind of, you know, greasing palms.

[Al Murray]

And this is cowboy's specialty, isn't it? It's forging, since he's forging. And he's got Jewish forges that he's got from camps, isn't he? Brought in?

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

And by 1940, three people from Sachsenhausen. By 1943, he's got 140 prisoners producing tens of millions of pounds worth of notes on six flatbread printing presses.

[Unknown]

It's just amazing very, very, very quickly that this counterfeiting was originally designed by the SC back in 1940 as a weapon to destabilize the British economy. They were going to flood the British economy with forged British banknotes. It didn't really work at all and it kind of disappeared. But then when Carter Browner takes over, the whole thing is revived as Operation Bernhard Hard.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And as you rightly say, this is the Jewish prisoners at Saxon House. They've got these printing presses there, these six flatbed printing presses, and they are absolutely perfect. And by May 1944, they've also, you know, Counter brothers also got them doing dollars. I mean, well, why not?

[Al Murray]

It's doing a whole lot. Yeah.

[Unknown]

As everyone knows, dollars are incredibly easy to forge.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. And he's getting those into Switzerland, putting them in bank accounts. He's burying a lot of it.

[Unknown]

So he's now got another scallywag in his pay. A chap called Friedrich Svent. And Svent is an extraordinary character actor. There's no known photo of him. He's obviously right wing and racist and all that kind of stuff. But basically he's not ideologically motivated at all. He's just an absolute chancer. You know, he sort of married a gorgeous kind of older, much richer woman in the 1930s. He was secondhand car salesman, basically. And he's about as dodgy as they come.

[Al Murray]

And his job is laundering this cash.

[Unknown]

He's got a lot of the money. He negotiates with Carlton Brunner. 33.33% of every. Every pound and dollar that.

[Al Murray]

I mean, how is he doing this? Nail bars.

[Unknown]

Nail bars, candy haircuts. Yeah. And the rest he's actually thinking a little bit bigger than those Turkish ones. Absolutely. Salisbury stuffed full of them.

[Al Murray]

Well, yeah, anyway, whatever.

[Unknown]

If they only accept cash, they're not having my hair. It's basically how I think about it. Anyway, so. So Svent is amazing. He set himself up in this place called Schloss Labers. Schloss Labers I've been to. And it's in beautiful vineyards on a hill overlooking Murano. Murano is little side valley. So the main valley goes up through Bolzano, then there's this little side valley and there's Murano. It's absolutely beautiful. It's this gorgeous kind of mountain spa town. The Stroslavas is on one side overlooking. The great thing about it is it's not a million miles from Innsbruck. It's not a million miles from. From the Brenner Pass. You know, you can get there reasonably easy. Yeah, it's close to Switzerland. You know, you can get into the right and get out of the Reich. You can move things around. But Murano itself is on a sort of little side valley. So you don't go there unless you're going there. So it's kind of discreet. And the Schloss Labers is this, this beautiful little sort of villa, sort of Victorian era villa on the edge of town, overlooking the town, which is his base. And you know, he sets himself up there and he buys lots of hotels and properties and ships and ships and you know, anything else else.

[Al Murray]

And he can get his hands on.

[Unknown]

All of his suitcases of cash.

[Al Murray]

A network of couriers and agents, including some Jews. So there's a Dutch Jew called Jack Van Houten who's working under the guise of the. He's working for the Red Cross and he's smuggling Jews to the Middle East. But he's also doing money laundering. I mean, this is an extraordinary operation. And then Wolf, who's of course, the police chief in Italy.

[Unknown]

It's right under his nose.

[Al Murray]

It's right under his nose. But Wolf's got his own chisel going on.

[Unknown]

Well, these are insurance policies. That's the body, bottom line. So Carlton Brunner's got his money laundering. It's just. I mean, it is absolutely amazing. Sven's got so much money that he's actually bought a warehouse at the Murono.

[Al Murray]

Racecourse that's full of money.

[Unknown]

It's just full of cash.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. And all of it bent. But no one's looking too closely at this stage of the war as well.

[Unknown]

If you made a film of this, no one would believe it, would they?

[Al Murray]

No one would believe it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you've got. Wolf is basically. He's not bothering with cash, he's bothering with hard action assets, isn't he, in the form of priceless works of art.

[Unknown]

Yes. And again, this can be worked either way. It can be worked in favor of Hitler or it can be worked in favor of the Allies, whichever. Which way the wind blows.

[Al Murray]

I am merely collecting the art for the fur museum that is planned for lint after the war.

[Unknown]

Basically, back in 1938, the fur of Hitler goes to Florence, is very impressed by the Ufizi and thinks, I want one of those.

[Al Murray]

I bet he didn't have to stand in a queue. Like, I was less impressed with the Ufiti due to the queue. You.

[Unknown]

Yeah, no, no, no. Getting that caper. The other problem with Ufizi, you know, just a little segue here, is I remember going around and, you know, you see your first Botticelli and you go, God, that is just amazing. Wow, that's amazing. And then the next one you go, God, that's pretty good too. The third one, you're sort of going, yeah, all right.

[Al Murray]

You're totally punch drunk within 10 minutes.

[Unknown]

Drunk. There's only one way to do it and that is to go. And go, right, I'm going to see six works of art and that's going to be it. But then you think, well, yeah, I've just keyed for bloody two hours. You cannot win.

[Al Murray]

Anyway, he look likes the Affidion wants his Own.

[Unknown]

He wants his own. This is going to be the Fury Museum, which, incidentally, is brilliant because this was going to be built as a sort of, you know, absolutely neoclassic with a kind of fascist twist kind of look, spear kind of style thing.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And now in lint is this ultra modern art modern building with lots of fluorescent lights that kind of, you know, flipping on, on and off all night.

[Al Murray]

He wouldn't like it. Let's put it that way.

[Unknown]

He wouldn't want. And degenerative.

[Al Murray]

So works of art have been collected. You know, Botticelli's, Canuck, Rubens, Michelangelo, Raphael and so on have been collected for this future Fuhrer Museum. But obviously, you know, the war's not going necessarily well.

[Unknown]

He's able to do this because he's got this guy called SS Standarten Fuhrer, Professor Alexander Langsdorff. And Langsdorf is in cahoots with the curators of the Uffizi and other galleries. And they've all been saying, right, we need to get all this stuff out of you. Feast. You know, because the battle's gonna. This is in the summer of 1944.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

You know, the war's gonna come through. Can't risk them. We've got to hide them. All the Italian creators go, yeah, I think, you know, just sort of, you know, just outside of France will be fine. I think it would be better to take them north where they're completely safe. And Wolf gives him permission and gets him the trucks and all the rest of it and the fuel, which the Italians don't have.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

So he holds all the ac. So he goes, no, no, no, no, no, this is still yours. Don't worry. We're just looking after them. And off they go in these trucks.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And they're dispersed. Not in Tuscany, but in the South Tyrol. Everything.

[Al Murray]

Yes.

[Unknown]

And in two locations, 11, 000 works of art.

[Al Murray]

Well, as far as we know, 11, 000 works of art, you know, they've all. Well, they've definitely all been found. Full inventory.

[Unknown]

Sandwiches. But.

[Al Murray]

But, yeah, okay, Right, okay. Because, you know, these numbers are, you know, untrustworthy people. Basically, only Langsdorf and Wolf and, you know, a handful of people know where they are.

[Unknown]

Yeah. And where are they?

[Al Murray]

Yeah. Vanished them. Yeah. And then. So that's the summer of 44. January 1945. The end of January. Wolf gets a direct order from Borman that says, based on Sophia's orders, the existence of all confiscated works of art, especially paint findings, objects of artistic interest, and weapons of artistic importance in Greater Germany and occupied territories is to be reported to the furious advisors in such. In other words, Fury wants to know what you got.

[Unknown]

Hand him over.

[Al Murray]

Hand them over.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

And he gets a memo from him as well saying, send them to my salt mine where I'm going to be looking after this stuff. I mean, it's all naked, isn't it? Yeah, the plunder ass.

[Unknown]

So wolves in a little sort of tricky situation because he's sort of, you know, know. So he, he says to him, he said, well, you know, obviously right here, I'd love to do that, but I am. I just haven't got the vehicles. But don't worry, they're safe. They're safe. And obviously they're going to go to viewer music. Him can't really do anything about it. He sort of can, but he can't. He doesn't. But also the other thing is that he hasn't got the faintest. Neither Himmler nor Hitler or Borman have the faintest idea of what he's already got.

[Al Murray]

He got his hand on. Hands on. Yeah. Yeah.

[Unknown]

So W thinks, what I need to do here is do a really, really careful inventory. So again, I'm covered because if the Allies, you know, this doesn't pan out, I hope.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Because Wolf's thinking I can use them as a bargaining chip.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

I can sell them, I can keep them.

[Al Murray]

Safekeeping, aren't they?

[Unknown]

But his safekeeping, he can do what he wants of them. I mean, you know, he can hand them over to Hitler if that, that.

[Al Murray]

Would be the right thing to do.

[Unknown]

Right thing to do. He can sell them, he can hand them over to the Allies, he can do whatever he wants, but he needs a further insurance, which is a inventory of all there is. So he makes these albums of them all which, you know, Hitler loves his albums of art. You can still see the album, the original albums that Hitler made for the Fury Museum, which were all the ones that were in the alt, but they were in cellars in Munich, then shifted to these salt mines in Altuse in the middle of Austria.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. But it counts as an insurance policy in any direction because he can say to the Allies, oh, no, I didn't give them to Himmler. No, of course not. I kept them from him if he has to. It flips in all directions, that policy. In the middle of March, he goes back to Switzerland to see Dulles again.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Al Murray]

And he started to sort of clear house, isn't he? So he's issued orders forbidding violent operations against parties act hands.

[Unknown]

Yep. Which he absolutely does do.

[Al Murray]

Which he does do. So he's behaving himself from an Allied perspective. This doesn't get back to Berlin, which is interesting, isn't it?

[Unknown]

Yes. He's making most of the hiatus between the Army Group commander.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. And Kesseling's absence. Although Dulles then asks him, would he be able to agree a surrender without the army commander? And he says, if there's no observation, then I'm prepared to deal with this alone. I mean, he's really sticking his neck out, isn't he?

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

However, the Soviets now do know about this, and I think this is one of the ally ongoing Allied problems for the whole of the war is the Soviets always know what's going on in the west one way or another.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

Word gets out, and of course, what the Soviets never do is send anyone west. They never send anyone if they can possibly avoid it. You've always got to go to them, you know, that's why you have conferences in Tehran. You have to go to them. They won't come to you. And as far as the Soviets are concerned, Dulles is going behind Russian backs.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

And they don't like it, do they?

[Unknown]

Well, because they've got designs on Italy becoming Communist.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, and. And they want to control everything.

[Unknown]

They want to control everything. They're total control fees, simple as that.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

But he does go and meet him at Ascona on the Swiss Italian border on the 19th of March. And also present then, and this is really, really important, is Phil Marshall Alexander's American Chief of Staff, General Lyman Lemnis.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And a British General, Terence Airy. And this is the first time ever in the entire war up to that point that Allied and German generals have met on neutral ground. Incredible, isn't it?

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And Wilf brings with him the news that General von Wetinghof, the former 10th army commander in Italy, is now the CNC, who's taken over from Castle Ring, which he believes is good news because he gets on well with. With von Faitinghoff, who he knows because Faisinghoff's been in Italy before.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And Wolf, for his part, is also relieved to hear that the negotiations that he's got with Dulles have now got an operational name, Sunrise. And that for him is a really, really important concrete. Yeah, yeah. That's a bone and a half, because it tells him that against all the odds, these talks are clearly leading somewhere.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And he tells the Allied contingency that Kesselring still has. Has a really important part to play, even more so now because He's CNC West. So what Wolf is doing is saying, I have a really good relationship with Kesseling and Kesselring is in the. In the whole of West. So actually I could not just bring about peace and unconditional surrender, the whole lot. Yeah, I have slayed the groundwork for Kesselring, Wolf, Tom. And what is more, I have a perfectly legitimate reason to visit him. There are many unfinished matters affecting the Italian theater which I need to discuss with him.

[Al Murray]

And what about Kalten Brunner?

[Unknown]

What about Counten Brunner? We both know that Car is trying to develop his own line through Switzerland for peace negotiations, says Wolf. But I implore you, do not let him ruin our plan with a competing one. Yeah, I bet you're saying that literally the word competing. Literally, the word competing.

[Al Murray]

These goddamn Nazis. Dulles is not going to pursue talks with Calton Brunner. But I mean, it's interesting because the two pressures the allies are under, or in Dallas's mind, is the same Soviet distaste with a separate deal, isn't it? That. That's the thing he's actually got to deal with really, that this possible Soviet reaction and this redoubt question whether Americans are getting quite hung up on the idea of the redoubt, aren't they? So he's. Dulles is thinking, okay, nearly, but not quite, isn't he? Yeah, and also they don't want to jeopardize. They can't jeopardize their relationship with the Soviets over someone like Wolf, can they? I mean, he's not worth it.

[Unknown]

No, no, no, no, no. So Wolf gets back and he goes on up through the Brenner Pass, then to Bad Newham, where on 23rd March, he reaches Kesselring's headquarters. And as he gets there, the news just arrives that the Allies are crossing the Rhine on that very same day, the 23rd of March. So obviously this is not great news for Wolf because Kesseling's a little bit distracted, but he does speak to him and he finds Kesselring actually, on the face of it, an open door. And he says he seemed quite ready to fall of our plans, provided the thing was done openly, either with the consent of the Fuhrer or after his death. Like what? Yeah, he didn't want any conflicts or anything that would mean breaking his oath.

[Al Murray]

Well, there's the oath, but obviously Wolf.

[Unknown]

Is thinking, yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever, yeah, you know, I'll massage that, but I'll get round it.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? The Wolf knows that probabilities the Fuhrer's gonna kill himself. Right. That speaks to him, knowing the Fuhrer's mindset as well as anyone else, doesn't he?

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

How else is he going to die? You know, he's not going to pick up a rifle. That's an extremely shrewd reading of things, isn't it? Actually?

[Unknown]

Yeah, it is amazing. And also what Wolf is suddenly seeing now is just thinking, if you just get Kesselring to support, you know, to give a kind of nudge to von Bettinghoff, then maybe I can get this all wrapped up in Italy, literally in the next few days. And if I can get it through in the next few days. I mean, he knows that the Allied offensive is brewing. Everyone does this. Mark Clark as the army group Commander in Italy. It's a spring. A final spring offensive. It's coming. You know, let's avoid. Avoid any further lives, both Allied and German. And so he knows this is a golden opportunity. So clearly he's absolutely stolen the march on car Brunner. The problem is, is Caren Brunner has. Is getting wind of what Wolf is up to. And he knows this from Druppen Fuhrer Harster, the head of the SD in Verona who has been Cal Bruner's mole. And this is because he's an SD man.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. And has found out about him seeing Dan.

[Unknown]

Yeah. He hasn't found out about Ascona, but he has found out about the first one.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Unknown]

And Kaltenbrunner has sneaked to Himmler.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And while Wolf can ignore Kaltenbrenner going, I need to see you in Innsbruck, he can't ignore Himmler.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And Himmler has now issued orders for Wolf to fly to Berlin. So at the very moment when Wolf is on the cusp of securing a really, really properly, significantly early, unconditional surrender, Italy, he's now got to go. And right into the bull's den.

[Al Murray]

Well, there we go. So that ends part one of the duel. Fil versus Kaltenbrunner.

[Unknown]

Oh, it's just amazing stuff, isn't it?

[Al Murray]

I mean, the. The web they've weaved by this stage. The war.

[Unknown]

The web they have woven.

[Al Murray]

Come on, Ally. Allies at war. People insist on writing those books.

[Unknown]

What's this? Oh, I know, I know.

[Al Murray]

Anyway, we hope you've enjoyed that part two along shortly. Of course, the way to speed that along would be to become officer class Apple podcast channel or become a We have Ways patron at Patreon. Don't forget, we have ways fest 12th to 14th September next year where you can sit in the same giant tent as us and listen to us do this precise kind of war waffle and many, many other speakers, writers, historians and personalities. Thanks very much for listening. Who will triumph, Wolf or Kaltenbrunner? Find out in the next episode.

[Unknown]

Will Eva escape Hangman's Noose?