The End Of The Home Guard

Summary

WW2 Pod: We Have Ways of Making You Talk – Episode Summary: "The End Of The Home Guard"

Release Date: December 17, 2024
Hosts: Comedian Al Murray and Historian James Holland

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Introduction to the Episode

In this episode of We Have Ways of Making You Talk, hosts Al Murray and James Holland delve into the final days of the British Home Guard during World War II. Blending insightful historical analysis with their characteristic humor, Al and James explore the significance of the Home Guard's farewell parade in December 1944 and the broader context of the war’s concluding phases.

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The Farewell of the Home Guard

The episode begins with a discussion on the farewell parade of the Home Guard held on December 3, 1944 (04:37). Al Murray remarks on the symbolic end of the Home Guard, emphasizing its role and eventual disbandment by December 31st:

Al Murray (04:24): "It's the end of the Home Guard. It says you're winning."

James Holland adds humorously:

James Holland (05:30): "They got to go home, can't talk to the wife."

The hosts reflect on the transformation of civilians into militia members and the emotional weight of disbanding such a significant volunteer force.

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Organizational Structure and Political Undertones

Al and James explore the organizational complexities of the Home Guard, questioning its coordination and leadership:

James Holland (09:10): "But how coordinated they are and who's coordinating them all. I'm not really sure who runs it."

They delve into the political implications, noting attempts by left-leaning groups to democratize the Home Guard, contrasting it with the militaristic structure reminiscent of traditional armies. This discussion highlights the interplay between military necessity and political ideology during wartime.

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German Mobilization of Women

A significant portion of the episode examines the mobilization of women in Nazi Germany as the Home Guard is disbanded. The hosts discuss the compulsory call-up of German women over 18 on December 5, 1944 (12:05), highlighting the role of figures like Gertrude Schultz Klink:

James Holland (13:00): "Called 'Die Frau im Dritten Reich' – The Women in the Third Reich."

Al Murray provides context from Richard Evans' work, detailing Klink's influence and the broader war mobilization of German society, which debunks the Nazi propaganda claim of un-mobilized civil society.

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Insights from Richard Evans' "The Hitler's People"

The hosts delve into Richard Evans' "The Hitler's People", discussing various Nazi officials and their roles in enforcing the regime's brutal policies. They highlight:

• Gertrude Schultz Klink: Reich Women's Leader who enforced strict societal roles for women.
• Carl Brandt: Involved in the T4 program, responsible for the mass murder of disabled individuals.

James Holland reflects on the moral corruption within the Nazi hierarchy:

James Holland (18:48): "He [Carl Brandt] just loves it, doesn't he?"

Al Murray emphasizes the unwavering brutality of these officials, contrasting it with the disbanding of the Home Guard.

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Reflections on Leadership and Morale

The conversation shifts to leadership dynamics, particularly focusing on Winston Churchill's leadership during the war. Al Murray critiques Churchill's strategic decisions and interpersonal relationships:

Al Murray (24:23): "I feel that he's losing his touch. He is fine when making stirring speeches, but on major issues, I doubt his judgment."

James Holland counters by acknowledging Churchill's resilience and commitment:

James Holland (25:38): "That's absolutely amazing, isn't it?"

They discuss the internal politics within the Conservative Party and Churchill's precarious position during critical junctures of the war.

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World Events of December 1944

The hosts provide a chronicle of key WWII events in December 1944, covering various fronts:

• Patton's Advancements: Highlighting General Patton's tactical prowess and the progress of the US 3rd Army near Zarbrucken (27:19).

• Kamikaze Attacks: The onset of Japanese kamikaze tactics against American ships off Leyte and Iwo Jima (30:44).

• British Pacific Fleet in Sydney: Discussing the strategic challenges faced by the British Navy in the Pacific Theater (29:20).

• Operation Ichigo: Japan's ambitious campaign linking Indochina and completing their eastern conquests (30:07).

• Eastern Front Movements: The Red Army's advances towards Lake Balaton, Hungary, and German strategic missteps (31:10).

• Greater London Plan: The publication advocating for a green belt around London and the transfer of a million people to new towns (31:32).

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Personal Anecdotes and Recommendations

Towards the end of the episode, Al shares a personal anecdote about visiting the Topography of Terror museum in Berlin with his daughter, reflecting on the emotional impact of learning about Nazi atrocities:

Al Murray (17:06): "She says, 'No, it's all a bit too bloody close to home. This data killed me.'"

The hosts conclude with book recommendations:

• James Holland recommends works like Hitler's Furies by Wendy Lower and Blue Jerusalem by Kit Kowal.
• Al Murray suggests Richard Evans' The Hitler's People and expresses enthusiasm for Noel Coward's diaries.

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Upcoming Events and Farewell

The episode wraps up with a promotion for the upcoming We Have Ways Fest 5: Viva Victory Camp, encouraging listeners to join for a weekend of immersive WWII history, talks, and exhibits.

Al Murray (37:24): "We have waysfest.co.uk if you want to buy your tickets."

Both hosts extend season's greetings, wishing listeners a fantastic Christmas and looking forward to future episodes and events.

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Notable Quotes

• Al Murray (04:24): "It's the end of the Home Guard. It says you're winning."
• James Holland (05:30): "They got to go home, can't talk to the wife."
• James Holland (13:00): "Called 'Die Frau im Dritten Reich' – The Women in the Third Reich."
• James Holland (18:48): "He [Carl Brandt] just loves it, doesn't he?"
• Al Murray (24:23): "I feel that he's losing his touch. He is fine when making stirring speeches, but on major issues, I doubt his judgment."
• James Holland (25:38): "That's absolutely amazing, isn't it?"
• Al Murray (04:24): "It's the end of the Home Guard. It says you're winning."

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Conclusion

In "The End Of The Home Guard," Al Murray and James Holland offer a comprehensive and engaging exploration of the British Home Guard's dissolution within the broader tapestry of WWII's final months. Through a blend of detailed historical analysis and personable banter, the episode provides listeners with a nuanced understanding of the military, political, and social dynamics that characterized this pivotal period.

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Transcript

[Al Murray]

Thank you for listening to we have ways of making you talk. Sign up to our Patreon to receive bonus content, live streams and our weekly newsletter with money off books and museum visits as well. Plus early access to all live show tickets. That's patreon.com we haveways put us in a box. Go ahead. That just gives us something to break out of because the next generation 2025 GMC terrain elevation is raising the standard of what comes standard. As far as expectations go, why meet them when you can shatter them? What we choose to challenge, we challenge completely. We are professional grade. Visit gmc.com to learn more.

[James Holland]

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[Al Murray]

Merrily on High welcome to we have ways of making you talk the second World War podcast for all your second World War podcast needs with me, Al Murray and James Holland. James, you look wintry.

[James Holland]

Yeah, no, I've got my seasonal. I'm clutching my Lem sip.

[Al Murray]

Oh dear.

[James Holland]

Yeah, you know, what can you do? It's inevitable, isn't it?

[Al Murray]

Yeah, it is inevitable.

[James Holland]

It's been warm and damp and now it's cold and damp.

[Al Murray]

And did you have any. You got any Storm Dara stories?

[James Holland]

No. Well, not really. I mean, the village was. It was out of electricity for quite a long time. So Rachel, I guess in the morning going, should we fight everyone over all those people who are still out of electricity and give them a really big lunch? I was like, yeah, but I've got a book to write.

[Al Murray]

Oh dear.

[James Holland]

But anyway, we did and actually it's very jolly. So we had Guy Walters was over with his son Will.

[Al Murray]

Oh, great.

[James Holland]

And various other people over. And we had a. Now that we've got our garage or I should say Air Commerce Gym.

[Al Murray]

Yes, yes, of course it's a gym. Yes.

[James Holland]

Why would a gym be allowed through planning permission but not a cess room?

[Al Murray]

I don't know. Get. Get Angela Rayner on the phone. She's. She's supposed to be tearing all that up, isn't she? Angela Rado.

[James Holland]

Anyway, so. So in our gym we had a. We had a big knees up. It was actually quite good fun.

[Al Murray]

Oh, very good.

[James Holland]

How about you? Did you. Did you. No trees now? Well, no.

[Al Murray]

And we went to see friends yesterday on the. It was his Monday yesterday. On Sunday we were at the training back all the way out to Wivenhoe, past Colchester and back without a like single hit.

[James Holland]

Sunday in December on a train after a storm.

[Al Murray]

Exactly.

[James Holland]

How can this be? This is not the. The broken Britain that we know of.

[Al Murray]

Exactly. And I was full of defeatist piss and vinegar. I'm going. I don't know why. I don't know why we're even bothering. Then we got there without, literally without a hitch. Came back without a hit. You're so really funny.

[James Holland]

That is really funny.

[Al Murray]

Now what we thought we'd do, as we've done occasionally in the last couple of years, is look at this week or this couple of weeks during 1944, during the Second World War, what is going on all over the world. And this is what I think this is what's really good about the thing I always find that really illuminated about this is it is happening all over the world. These are things you remind yourself all over the world.

[James Holland]

But we're not going to go up to the 16th of December because we're going to save that little nugget for the new Year.

[Al Murray]

Absolutely.

[James Holland]

When coming to airwaves near you will be a super duper series on the Battle of the Bulge.

[Al Murray]

On the Battle of the Bulge.

[James Holland]

And you know, it's not something you.

[Al Murray]

Can do by half, but it is a bit busy week, isn't it?

[James Holland]

There's lots of weird different stuff going on. It's kind of wind down, but it kind of isn't.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. Well, where do you want to start, Jim?

[James Holland]

Well, I think the moving fair will pray to the Home Guard.

[Al Murray]

Yes. So that's the 3rd of December, which is a Sunday. It's the other thing I lately because we're writing Victory 45 is actually pinning dates to the days of the week it's been in. You know, like VA Day was a Tuesday and I just think knowing it's a Tuesday so kind of changes the sort of, you know, if it fall on a Saturday.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

Would it have been different? But, you know, you get a day off work second day of the week, you're thinking bingo and V plus one. Anyway, so, yes, it's Sunday 3rd December is the moving farewell parade of the Home Guard, as you say. And there's a. That goes past the Royal box in Hyde park and this is the end of the Home. God. I think it's really interesting, isn't it, that of course they wound it down. Of course they. Of course they had to shut it down. Of course they had to say goodbye to it. It's interesting, isn't it?

[James Holland]

Yeah. We're just not needed anymore.

[Al Murray]

No. So what do those guys do with their weekends now?

[James Holland]

They got to go home, can't talk to the wife.

[Al Murray]

Exactly.

[James Holland]

Oh, hello, dear.

[Al Murray]

And what do they give in their uniforms? I mean, I don't know. What's the process? I mean, surely they do maybe pinch your great coat. I mean, it's a fascinating moment, isn't it, because it says you've. It says you're winning.

[James Holland]

Says you're winning. Three mile long the march passes. That's suggestive that there's quite a lot of people involved in the Home Guard, which of course, the word.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

You know, and there's a picture of them here. Everyone will be pleased to know it's been raining.

[Al Murray]

Great.

[James Holland]

So it's not just now that it rains a lot in December. It did in 1944. Terrible winter. And yeah, I mean, you. You can see they're all in their great coats. They're all in their Tommy helmets. They've all got their Liam Fields. There's no more Springfields on site. No, you know, the. Got the kit. It's a big transformation, isn't it, from. From 1940. May 1940. Really. It's. It's in. I think the, you know, Home Guard is really impressive, what they do.

[Al Murray]

And there's an American squadron as well. That's the other thing.

[James Holland]

What the heck.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

Of US citizens.

[Al Murray]

First American Squadron. First American Squadron formed on the 1st of June 1940. It's formed in London. Average strength of 60 to 70, commanded by General Wade H. Hayes.

[James Holland]

What a cool name.

[Al Murray]

That's just brilliant, isn't it? Oh, are you.

[James Holland]

The name's Wade.

[Al Murray]

Just amazing.

[James Holland]

Fantastic. Americans have such great names, don't they?

[Al Murray]

Yeah, they do.

[James Holland]

We have John and Robert and Peter.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, exactly.

[James Holland]

They have just. They have Wade.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, exactly. And of course they have to have that middle initial.

[James Holland]

That's the other thing I Have to.

[Al Murray]

Have a middle initial. That's that thing the war memorial on.

[James Holland]

Yes, the big round one Memorial.

[Al Murray]

And mi nmi. No middle initial.

[James Holland]

Gets everyone every time.

[Al Murray]

It's incredible, isn't it?

[James Holland]

Yeah, amazing.

[Al Murray]

I mean, it's. So they're stood down on the 3rd of December and then finally actually disbanded on the 31st of December.

[James Holland]

Yeah. In a broadcast tonight, King Drawer said, I believe it is the voluntary spirit which has always made the Home Guard so powerful. A comradeship, you have found how men from all kinds of homes and occupations can work together in a great cause.

[Al Murray]

Great.

[James Holland]

I am very proud of what the Home Guard has done and I give my heartfelt thanks.

[Al Murray]

Oh, well, thanks.

[James Holland]

God bless you.

[Al Murray]

Thanks, your majesty. I mean, the thing, the Home Guards is interesting, though. The history is sort of. It's quite interesting because there is a moment where, you know, people on the left, they want to democratize it and run it, like, as a people's army and all this sort of thing in. In when it first starts up, they don't want it to be like, proper, like, like army army. They want it to be something new. They see it as an opportunity to sort of earth the Second World War through the pop. Create a sort of people's movement, which I think is really, really like a really interesting. You know, a million miles from dad's army, obviously.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

That actually there's. There's sort of more to it politically than appears. It's not just you're giving people pikes to start with and then eventually rifles.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

There's the politics swirling around in people seeing what it means. And what does it mean that you. You know, because after all, we've always been reluctant to levy militias, haven't we, since the Civil War. It's. It's part of the national characters.

[James Holland]

You.

[Al Murray]

That's why we don't have a standing army, because they're dange things to have in an island and. Yes. And you. You know, when you have not got land wars to fight and then suddenly you have a Home Guard and like, what actually is it and where does it fit into your. Into society and what people are?

[James Holland]

The truth of the matter is, is that. Is that we need to do a session because I don't really understand how it works. I don't understand how, you know, I know you have these, these, these little units and stuff all over the place. You have Wiltshire Home Guard, which is divided into lots of different battalions and platoons and things.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Holland]

But how coordinated they are and who's coordinating them all. I'm not really sure who runs it. Yeah, maybe a cheeky little two parter at some point there's that moment where.

[Al Murray]

Percy Hobart turns up in Oxford and starts organizing things. I think it's really interesting with his pike. You know, obviously they go great. You know, someone knows what. Someone who knows what he's doing.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

But yes, so the Home Guard. The Home Guard stood down and you.

[James Holland]

Didn'T do Home Guard all day. You know, you, you would do a couple of nights a week, three nights a week, that kind of thing.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. And Lord Lieutenants of the counties raising bands and all that. It's all quite old fashioned in that regard.

[James Holland]

Yeah, it's like so, you know, creation of the Green Howards or something.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[James Holland]

Lovett Scouts.

[Al Murray]

And then obviously it gets sort of, kind of coagulated and Lord Lieutenants are told that they're going to have to coordinate with the proper army. You know, I mean it's so, it is so interesting.

[James Holland]

Well let's do something on that.

[Al Murray]

But of course they, I mean they then end up an anti aircraft defense and all that sort of stuff.

[James Holland]

And of course the auxiliary units spring from that. Of course.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

Because a lot of them end up being the commandos. They're done with training like okay, well we're not needed here anymore. I think that's what's gonna happen to one of my characters in Alveston if I ever, if I ever get the opportunity to write any more of it. Elveston 2. Elveston bird 2.

[Al Murray]

The thing is, obviously there will be a Home Guard expert right now shaking their fist at us.

[James Holland]

Well I did a lot of research for alveston.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

Part one in 1940. So I'm, you know, in 41. So I'm up to speed on that bit.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And how they were formed in the first place. I'm pretty good on that. It's just what happened afterwards. It can't all be Warmington on sea, can it?

[Al Murray]

Well, and 943. What's that point?

[James Holland]

What's that point? End of the day keeping people busy.

[Al Murray]

He's keeping people organized, keeping tabs on people I suppose and all that sort of thing. You know, keeping people involved in the war effort.

[James Holland]

Well, you're still turning into a social club. Well it would be, wouldn't it?

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

It's like doing something every week.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

Feeling you're doing something useful. But on the other hand might also be a bit morale sapping if you're just kind of doing the same old drills all day long every Day.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. And yes. Turning up in an air raid shelter full of rain or whatever. I mean that. Because that, that is, after all that with, you know, the whole air raid warden thing, you end up with recruitment. Goes up and down, doesn't it, depending on how busy people are. People stop showing up if they think there's, you know, the fluctuations in attendance are all to do with how busy people are, what's actually going on, the state of the threat as they see it, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, as ever you put, you push into the Second World War, you find out there isn't a uniform single line of behavior at all. So when people go, oh, back in the war, we just put up with it.

[James Holland]

Well, actually, lots of people didn't.

[Al Murray]

A lot of people didn't. They complained an awful lot.

[James Holland]

Moaned the whole time for the duration. Absolutely.

[Al Murray]

Every moment of it. Yeah.

[James Holland]

Country's gone to the dogs.

[Al Murray]

Exactly. I mean, exactly. Kids these days.

[James Holland]

But what's really interesting with this is, is in sharp contrast.

[Al Murray]

Yes.

[James Holland]

As the Home Guard is being disbanded, women in Germany being compulsorily called up.

[Al Murray]

On the 5th of December. Yes. The Germans. I mean, a call goes out for all German women over 18 to volunteer.

[James Holland]

That's a euphemism, isn't it?

[Al Murray]

Yeah, exactly. You've all got a volunteer now, please.

[James Holland]

Unbelievable.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

Gertrude Schultz Klink.

[Al Murray]

Well, she is one of the people who features in Richard Evans new book about Hitler's people, the mother, Gertrude Schultz. So in 1971, she's someone who sort of gets discovered by the American historian Mary Ritterbeard, who finds her. She's Frau Clink is described as, you know, she rules the lives of women and all things. She tells them how many children they must have and when, what they shall wear, what they shall cook and how, what they shall say, laughing to their husbands and sons, marching to war, how they should behave, smiling when they men are killed. Here is the responsibility for the home spirit, the core of national morale. And his chapter about her is absolutely fascinating because it's sort of about the room for maneuver she was given within the Nazi state is really, really, really very interesting. So she's the Reichsfrau and the Reich women's leader and she wrote a book.

[James Holland]

Called Die Frau im Drittenreich. The Women in the Third Reich.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, exactly. It's all about Frauenschaft. I mean, this called, this call going up in December. After all, the fact is, is actually German society was. Was, you know, Adam Tooze argues that German society was War mobilized long before the war. And the sort of the Nazi pose that they hadn't done full mobilization is again, it's a piece of propaganda that we've kind of fallen for along the way, you know, because by 1944 you got 450,000 women in the anti aircraft defense system, you know, vast numbers of people.

[James Holland]

That's a huge number, isn't it? Nearly half a million.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

That's a lot.

[Al Murray]

What's interesting about her, she has no. She has influence over the people below her, but she has no influence above. So they tell her what to do.

[James Holland]

But she's only too happy to do it because she's a absolute rabid Nazi and remains brutal until she dies very sadly at the old age of 97 in 1999.

[Al Murray]

I mean, for God's sake.

[James Holland]

I mean, I bet her book is really, really interesting because apparently it's just an absolute unapologetically.

[Al Murray]

Well, so she's after the war, in August 49, she goes on trial. She says it's a war between Europe and the east, you know, so she's, she's saying it's US versus Bolshevism. We're doing the right thing here at her trial. Still admire Hitler and she says right up to the end she believed that Germany would win the war. And then she says basically that the court, she persuades the court by. She's got no repentance. But she also says, I've got no influence, I had no influence over the decisions. It's men's business, the war. Right. So they classify her as a help Schuldige, which is a principal culprit with the highest level of involvement in Nazism. But then, right, she says she gets 18 months in prison, right?

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

And the court decided. Well, she's already done, she's already been in for that time anyway. She gets two and a half years, right. And they. She successfully appeals because she's got 11 kids to look after from her multiple marriages. So they let her off. She goes to work for the Coca Cola Corporation. It's absolutely unbelievable.

[James Holland]

James, who's producing Taste, it says, says that. Have we ever read Hitler's Furies, German Women in the Nazi Killing Fields by Wendy Lower.

[Al Murray]

No, I have to have a look at that.

[James Holland]

So it's not just about House Friars, it's also about Evil staff at Ravensbrook, etc.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. I mean. SHOTS CLINK she's in. So Richard Evans book the. The Hitler's People.

[James Holland]

I think he's coming to. We have ways Fest.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, great. What I found really interesting about their book is the stuff at the start is, you know, it's Hitler, then it's, then it's Gerring and Goebbels and Rome and all that. And he's. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, reading that. Yeah, I've covered this ground. But when you go into part three and four of the book, which is called the Enforcers and the Instruments, the stuff about Robert Lay is really, really interesting. We've talked a lot about Hans Frank on the podcast because of Nicholas Frank coming to, you know, who came to. We have Ways Fest a couple of.

[James Holland]

Years ago and Catherine Himmler.

[Al Murray]

And Catherine Himmler. But the stuff, the stuff about Frank in Evan's book and then when you get down into, you know, and they're categorized and I rather like, I mean, I rather like this style where what you do is you chop things up into easily memorable categories like a village and a town and a bridge. But it's the general, the professional, the killers, the witch, the mother, the star and the denunciator. And the chapter about Willem Ritter von Lieb, you know, who's sacked and stood down by Hitler but nevertheless has an enormous estate. You know, his soldiers were involved in atrocities and all that and who after the war is basically able to sort of pass himself off as an apolitical soldier. Those chapters and the chaps, you know, the chapter about Ilsa Koch, all that stuff and then like I said, Gertrude Schultz Clink is really, really fascinating because it's sort of these less high profile people who maybe you've heard of but not actually like looked into properly. And this chat about Carl Brandt is absolutely, I mean the diabolical really. The T4 stuff killed 400,000 people.

[James Holland]

I know, it's just unbelievable, isn't it?

[Al Murray]

Absolutely mind boggling. And this idea that because Germany had, you know, their thinking is Germany's stock has been weakened by the First World War, so we need to balance it out.

[James Holland]

And how, how these guys are still being kind of transported around the country.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

Right up to the very end as what can only be described as a priority is just extraordinary. What's the point?

[Al Murray]

It's ten years ago now. I took Scarlet, my oldest daughter, and I took her for a history weekend, Berlin. We went to Topography of Terrors, you know, which is by the Reichstage, which is an amazing museum because it, and the whole point of it is it's the documents, it's the documentary evidence. So what you can't do is be one of those people goes, well, they Know that none of it's written down. It didn't happen. You know, you can't do that. They're refusing you to allow. To allow that. But they had a side exhibition, special exhibition about T4. And Scarlett has a mild disability, right. She won't mind me saying this now she's a grown up and she's done advocacy for it. And also she's a form of cerebral palsy, right. And we walk around there and she came out white as a sheet. And I said, you're all right. She says, no, it's all a bit. It's all a bit too bloody close to home. This data killed me. And there's a. There was a bit in that exhibition and it's some doctor in April 1945 in Vienna or somewhere in Salzburg, injecting kids with, you know, TB bacillus or whatever to see what would happen.

[James Holland]

What do you think's gonna happen?

[Al Murray]

Well, a. What do you think is gonna happen? The Soviets are also. The Soviets are over there, mate.

[James Holland]

Right.

[Al Murray]

The Soviets are here. Why are you still doing this? And it's, I think what's really. What also is really striking about this and the chat about Brandt is really, really striking. You know, it is true that the Nazis, once the war starts, begin to accelerate the, you know, extermination. That's maybe the unspoken heart, publicly unspoken heart of what they're trying to do, right? But they're very, very keen on killing people before the war begins. You can't be surprised that it. That that's what happens once these people have got the sort of nacht and navel of war to hide under. You just can't be. And Brent is. Grant is into killing people. There's no other way of looking at it.

[James Holland]

Yeah, he just loves it, doesn't he?

[Al Murray]

Extraordinary. Truly extraordinary.

[James Holland]

I mean, he does come to grisly end, doesn't he? Well, yes.

[Al Murray]

This is what's great. He is one that does come to a grizzly end.

[James Holland]

John Brant says while he's standing on the gallows, he says, it is no shame to stand upon a scaffold. This is nothing but political revenge. I have served my fatherland as others before me.

[Al Murray]

God. I'll tell you what, we'll take a.

[James Holland]

Quick break on that cheery note.

[Al Murray]

On that cheery note. Well, while you all contemplate Brent going to the gallows and yakking, we'll see you in a ticket.

[James Holland]

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[Al Murray]

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[James Holland]

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile with a message for everyone paying big wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop with Mint. You can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying. No judgments. But that's weird. Okay, one judgment anyway. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment.

[Al Murray]

Of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full [e-mail] welcome back to we have ways of making you talk where James and I are discussing the events of the, well, kind of first, second week of December 1944. And we've done the, the Home Guard has done its moving farewell parade. It won't actually be stood down until December 31st because you never know, do you? You never know what the Germans might do in December, Jim.

[James Holland]

You never know. There might be some madcap, crazy offensive that they want to launch some stupid.

[Al Murray]

Rabbit out of a, out of a hat.

[James Holland]

The amount of stupidity is just constantly, constantly making terrible decisions, constantly shooting themselves in the foot, constantly not making the most of what they've got. I mean, thank goodness on one level. But I mean, it's just, it's so obscene. And then when you contrast that with the kind of sort of, you know, the ideology and moral certitude.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

Of someone like Harry Truman when he passed his terrible mantle of taking over from Roosevelt.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

I mean, how can you not but stand in awe of this guy's, you know, what he's doing, you know, and everything he does, he's trying to do the right thing. There's nothing about doing the right thing in the Nazi mind.

[Al Murray]

No, no, no, no.

[James Holland]

It's about enacting some warped grotesque fantasy world.

[Al Murray]

Well, and also. But it. But they're in a state of sort of perma revolution. So that they must all know at some point, you know, and sort of happens towards the end they're all gonna have to kill each other at some point. The logical conclusion is that you. Everyone kills everyone, isn't it? Completely bonkers. In contrast, I've been reading Noel Coward's diaries in which we serve. That the wrangling around that in his diaries is absolutely amazing. Right? Because basically, you know, it's a propaganda film. There are two ways about it. But because a ship is sunk in it. Jack Bennett. So this is Wednesday the 17th of December, 1941. I know we're doing the week in 1944, but whatever he says. Jack Benedict rang up from the Ministry of Information.

[James Holland]

That's actually very good to say that.

[Al Murray]

They considered in which we serve was bad propaganda for outside England. That the Minister of Information could not in any way be associated with it but that they would grant me certain facilities on condition that I was agreed that they control all advanced publicity. When I asked why it was considered bad propaganda he said it was because a ship was sunk in it. Right? So they baked because the ship sunk in it. They're like. They're like. You know. So he says I controlled myself during this conversation and agreed to meet them to discuss it tomorrow at 5. This I have no intention of doing. Absolutely appalled by this utterly infuriating impertinence. Right now. His thing, show business. It's not what you know, Jim.

[James Holland]

No.

[Al Murray]

We'll ask Dickie, Lord Mountbatten. We'll ask Dickie to take script direct to Winston.

[James Holland]

That's just brilliant, isn't it?

[Al Murray]

Certain that there's a campaign still going on against me. Time will show. So basically, the following week, the Monday 22nd December 1941, he's doing auditions all day, screen tests. Then he telephones Mountbatten in the morning about the Ministry of Information. As usual. As usual he was wise and clear and said that he would handle a whole affair. First of all, he wanted a script to take to the King and Queen with whom he is dining tonight. He will then tackle Brendan Bracken. Isn't I mean, it just like. So then he takes the script of Mountbatten at the War Cabinet and gets the film made.

[James Holland]

That's amazing, isn't it?

[Al Murray]

Isn't it? Dickie's militant loyalty, moral courage and infant capacity for taking Pains. However, business is one of the marvels of this most Unpleasant age. I would do anything in the world for him. So quite clearly, the Mountbatten magic worked on Null. Cowardly.

[James Holland]

Wow.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

So you reading the. Is this the ones that have been edited by Sheridan Morley?

[Al Murray]

Yeah, it's really good. And, you know, he's very interesting on Churchill because, you know, he's making this film and then Singapore goes, but, you know, so he's 10th of February, so Singapore, obviously not a chance. In a dreadful situation. Our troops retreating in Africa. Winston Churchill, red production, white paper before the Commons. I feel that he's losing his touch. He is fine when making stirring speeches, but on major issues, I doubt his judgment. And his prophecies just before the war, when he was the voice of the wilderness, were wonderful, but he seems less good in judging strategy and men. Right.

[James Holland]

What?

[Al Murray]

Yeah, but you know what, Jim? 1942. The first half of 1942. Yeah.

[James Holland]

It was a bit of a shit show, wasn't it?

[Al Murray]

It's a shit show and it's bad for Churchill. He knows the temper of the people in crisis, but I doubt if he really knows the people themselves. It may be heresy to say so, but I feel that if he goes on playing a lone hand, refusing to listen to younger and wiser men, he will fall. And this will be. Will be sad because it will damage his legend. Now, Noel Coward adores Churchill, and later on in the war, particularly, you know, sees him just after the war ends and sees him after he's lost the election and he says, Churchill says to him, it's very hard to take a bow for victory. And then. And then a trapdoor fall out underneath you, is how he puts it. Right.

[James Holland]

Wow. Oh, I've got to read these.

[Al Murray]

He's super connected, you know, he knows it. I knows absolutely everyone can go anywhere as a result. Right.

[James Holland]

Lives in the Savoy. Doesn't.

[Al Murray]

Lives in the Savoy because he's been bombed out. Exactly. Yeah. It's just really, really interesting. You know, meets the Morgan Towers and the President.

[James Holland]

Yes.

[Al Murray]

Goes to Washington and at one point he discover that he shouldn't have spent any money in Washington without the government's permission when he goes there to do propaganda stuff, right. And the government take him to court, what, and fine him for spending money abroad. And basically the judge lets him off. Guys, nah, you're doing a job. What? You know, says, what was Mr. Coward supposed to do? Go to. Go to the US with the £10 in his bank account and live off that? It's an amazing story, but what's really, really interesting is, is this, because in 1942, there's that debate, no confidence debate in Churchill. Churchill is on really, actually, really, really thin ice. And you know that book I read earlier in the year, Blue Jerusalem by Kit Kowal, which is about the internal politics of the Conservative Party in the Second World War, is very interesting because, after all, they defenestrate Chamberlain for a lot less in 1940. They get rid of him for a lot less than what Churchill then endures. All of Chamberlain's policy fails and they get rid of him. And you could argue that by the third month of 1942, all of Churchill's policies have failed. You could argue that that, couldn't you? That the fighting, the war at arm's length for Singapore.

[James Holland]

Well, no, no, but I think you could also do an incredibly robust defense.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, but the Tory. But the point is, the Tory party might, you know, they never liked him.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

So he does run the risk of being. Anyway, I would thoroughly recommend the Noel Coward Diaries. But just, you know, the fact that he gets the King to greenlight his movie, it's kind of like. Well, you know.

[James Holland]

Yeah, that's absolutely amazing, isn't it?

[Al Murray]

It's extraordinary. Right, what else have we got?

[James Holland]

So Patton has crossed the Tsar. It's always pattern. It's not Third Army. He's amazing, isn't he? He's the only one.

[Al Murray]

It's because he's good. He gives good copy. He's good with the hat. He's really brilliant at talking to journalists, which isn't to downplay the man's skill, but he's really good at talking to journalists, isn't he? That's the thing.

[James Holland]

Yep. The battle for the key industrial area of the Saar Basin is moving towards a climax as Patton's US 3rd army exploits the three bridgeheads established across the Saar River. Advances of up to nine miles, that's 14.4 kilometers could be made. And in the central sector of the front, the Americans are within five miles of the capital, Zarbrucken. I mean, you know, Patton does pretty well, really, doesn't he? I mean, you know, I think he does deserve his reputation. I think. Yeah, he does take. He deserves his reputation as an operational commander. I mean, it's all tactics. Tactics and his tactical flair and his verve and all the rest of it. But actually. But actually, his prep and his. These engineers and stuff are just brilliant, aren't they? So this is when Glenn Miller goes. Goes for Burton.

[Al Murray]

I know. On his way to Paris, isn't he, from Bedford? I went to school in Bedford. Bedford has John Bunyan and Glenn Miller. To be, to be a pilgrim we would sing at school. And then the Corn Exchange. There's a plaque because that's where he did his last show before he flew. Flew. I mean, the thing is, it's December, isn't it? So there's. Because he's one of these, like, mystery deaths of World War II, isn't he?

[James Holland]

Yeah, I don't think there is much mystery about it really. I think, I think what happens is they're going across the channel and the artificial horizon doesn't work. Work. And, and they just get discompulated and they, they misread the Altima and they just go straight in.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

Instead of at 2, 000ft, they're at zero feet. It's as absolutely simple as that. There's no, there's no question about it at all. Really.

[Al Murray]

Bad weather, poor daylight. It's just, it's the middle of December. I mean, what, you know, because there's one, there's one sort of theory, isn't it? There's a. It's some. A bomber dropping bombs on its way home.

[James Holland]

Yep.

[Al Murray]

And maybe that someone saw something out of. Out of his, you know, canopy.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

Maybe. Maybe they drop bombs on them. But I mean, it, you know, flying is so bloody dangero.

[James Holland]

Dangerous. It is just absolutely dangerous. Yeah. There's lots of other stuff going on. So. In Australia, the newly formed British Pacific Fleet has arrived at Sydney on the 10th.

[Al Murray]

And there's that whole thing, isn't there, that the, the essential difference is that the British warships have a shorter, basically shorter range, don't they, than American ones? Because the Americans are geared to sailing across the Pacific, aren't they?

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

So there's a. There's a completely different logistic culture difference between the Americans, the British, isn't there? And that's the sort of, of one hand behind the back aspect that the Royal Navy are fighting within the Pacific.

[James Holland]

Right. Yeah, exactly. So it just makes a bit complicated. But they're, you know, they're there for all the, you know, they're supporting all the other, the major operations that can. That go on. And not least Okinawa, of course, where they're, they're they're big time. Well, obviously that's to come in April 1945. April 1 start of the Okinawa campaign.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

Also, same day, Japanese troops form Operation Ichigo. Remember that?

[Al Murray]

Oh, Ichigo.

[James Holland]

This is where they link up down to Indochina. Vietnam.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

Completing their conquest of the east coast.

[Al Murray]

Yes. I mean, what's the point?

[James Holland]

Yeah, well, it's it's the same, isn't it? It's bloody everything. I mean just throwing the towel, mate.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

In Burma, Allied engineers complete a 1154 foot long Bailey bridge. Come on, come on. Exactly. I mean that's seriously long.

[Al Murray]

I mean hurrah for the corps of Engineers, Jim.

[James Holland]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, good point, Colonel. German forces withdraw across the Roa river.

[Al Murray]

The rower.

[James Holland]

The Ruhr.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, one of the Ruh. It's one of the, the rare is the Ruhr, right?

[James Holland]

Yeah. And this is the start of the kamikazes, isn't it? This is the kamikaze attacks on the US Cruise in Nashville and destroy Harridan. Yeah, this is exactly when the kamikazes start kicking in in December, isn't it? Off the Philippines. Off Leyte.

[Al Murray]

Exactly. You got Leyte, you've got Iwo Jima, American ships off Iwo Jima, you've got, I mean all sorts going on. And then on the eastern front, well the other eastern. You know what I mean?

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

You know the Red army gets to Lake Balaton in Hungary. So that, I mean you, what you really don't want to do if you're the Germans right now when you're into this kind of nutcracker, right is spunk your strategic reserve on some harebrained attempt to get to the mers, isn't it?

[James Holland]

You absolutely don't want that and you don't want to be doing any more railway lines and, and logistics on just so you can execute people. I mean it's just completely insane.

[Al Murray]

It's completely ridiculous.

[James Holland]

It's completely ins. Interestingly, on 14 December the Greater London Plan is published advocating the creation of a green belt around the capital.

[Al Murray]

Wow.

[James Holland]

The transfer of a million people to 10 new towns. I tell you who we should get on at some point is Nicholas Boyce Smith. He's a really amazing guy and he's into kind of modern town planning and trying to beautify ugly urban areas. Yeah, but he's absolutely a mine of information about all the kind of. Of town planning post war and it's just fascinating.

[Al Murray]

Well, having grown up next to Milton Keynes and my mum being involved in sort of civic, civic life in Milton Keynes. You know, watching that turn sort of go from a thing on a map when I was a kid, turning itself into a sort of megapolis full of Amazon warehouses has been extraordinary. Yeah, whole, whole villages. You know there's that weird thing where the villages are still in the middle of the city but, but they're surrounded by city and not countryside anymore. It's very, very weird. Yeah. No, that's interesting. And we're back. Of course, we're still. The politics of the green belt lingers. An idea from 80 years ago.

[James Holland]

Yes, well, indeed, but, but also I, I, you know, I like the fact that it's, it's a reminder, isn't it, that, that, you know, at this point we've had the beverage report in December 1942, where people are looking ahead and now they're really looking ahead, aren't they? Winding down the Home Guard, thinking about future town planning.

[Al Murray]

Yes, but that's all. It's all very tricky, all that, isn't it? Because, I mean, the 16th of December is the V2 that hits the cinema in Antwerp, that kills 567 people. So V2s are still quite capable of gigantic carnage. But this is an interesting phase, isn't it? When do you switch production from war production to post war production? You know, not just yet because no.

[James Holland]

One knows when the war's going to end.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, it's really difficult.

[James Holland]

You know, when Truman comes in, he's brief that the war against Germany might still last six months. Against Japan, 18.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. Even at the point where the U.S. army in Europe is saying no more replacements or isn't getting any more replacements because they're gearing to the east again or they're going to the east properly. And so you've got that, you know, which is. Which is definitely part of the Berlin decision. It's like, well, rather not get a load of guys killed going for Berlin if we could possibly avoid it because we've got. Still got to go to Tokyo. Yeah. I mean, it's fascinating because when do you say, all right, that. That factory that's churning out liberators, we've got 20,000 now, we don't need any more or whatever. Yeah, we can turn that over to automobiles. When do we flick the switch to go back to a peacetime economy? And how do we do it? And where's the emphasis? And how do you stimulate, you know, how do you stimulate consumer growth properly to pick up the slack? And they've also know they saw how badly wrong that all went after the First World War, how that was a complete mess, wasn't it? Post First World War, they're all trying to mitigate that sort of stuff and decide, how do you rebuild? You know, how do you rebuild? What do you do about Germany? The Morgenthau plan is a thing in people's minds, isn't it? So to reduce it to an agrarian economy and all that sort of stuff. And you can see why that appeals to people too. Yeah. Fascinating, isn't it, that. That tip. That moment. And, and how do you also. And the British state is worrying also about how it maintains power, how it maintains influence, knowing that the, the larder's bare, knowing that, you know, people are exhausted, no appetite for any further conflict. And also that our relationship with empire is completely changed by late 1944. It's gone out the window. The, the idea that you're fighting for the British Empire.

[James Holland]

Yeah, yeah.

[Al Murray]

What else is there? This, I mean, this is a fat. I mean the thing is every Greece. There's all the stuff in Greece.

[James Holland]

Yeah, well, let's finish on that one. Let's finish on. On Greece because that. That is obviously absolutely fascinating. This is a terrible civil war which is sort of broken out in Greece.

[Al Murray]

Between rival parts of got Alas, the KKE am. All these different factions. George Papandreo.

[James Holland]

Yeah, well, we did that series on Greece, didn't we, a few years. A couple of years ago, which is. Yeah. Which was so interesting. But yeah, you know, the British decide, okay, well, we need to wade in and kind of come sort this out. Because the worry is it's going to fall under the communist yoke. That's.

[Al Murray]

Yes, that's.

[James Holland]

That's the concern.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. And you've actual. A proper British commitment, haven't you, in Greece at this point? I think 2nd Parachute Brigade are there.

[James Holland]

Yes. And I think if I remember right, the second rifle gate is it. And, and second, the 46th Division, I think gets a name over there.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, exactly as you say. Stop it. Stop it. Tipping itself into Soviet influence is the. Is the thing, isn't it? That's what they're worried about.

[James Holland]

Well, they're just worried it's all going to go commie, you know.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, well, you know, which is a daily worry in this household.

[James Holland]

Got to stand up against it.

[Al Murray]

Right. Well, I think that. There we go. There's. And what we've. We've successfully done, we've hinted what's to come, that the Germans are about to make another. Because I think what's so interesting about the Ardennes is it. It looks. It's like a shiny bauble, isn't it? But it's hollow, it's got nothing in it. And it's so wildly. It's piss and wind and it's so wildly. Ridiculous, profligate, rash, ill judged in the set of circumstances you're in with no.

[James Holland]

Conceivable hope of succeeding.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. Think of what you'd be able to do if you put all those resources on the Rhine as a line of defense. How much better you'd do if. If slowing the Allies down is your aim, it's completely bonkers. Well, thanks everyone for listening. We hope you've enjoyed this week in 1944. I recommend the Richard Evans book. I recommend the Noel Coward Diaries.

[James Holland]

I recommend the Lawrence Reese book when it comes out.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah, I can't wait to get my hands on that. And Kit Kowal's book Blue Jerusalem, about the sort of internal Tory party politics is the thing is the most enormous rabbit hole in itself as a book. But the stuff about Churchill's position in 1942 is really, really interesting where they there is a no confidence debate and he does win it. But the stuff that gets said at that debate from his point of view politically is entirely blood curdling. It's really, really interesting. Anyway, it's all good stuff. Thanks everyone for listening. Don't forget there's a festival in September, isn't there, Jim?

[James Holland]

Yeah, there is. We have waistfest 5 viva victory. Putting the fun back into funf the.

[Al Murray]

Camp at de Campfgruppe the 12th, 14th September. That still hasn't failed to get a laugh out. You know, I'm very pleased with that one. So go to we havewaysfest.co.uk if you want to buy your tickets. I mean, they're going like. They're going like hotcakes is the simple truth. And we'd love to see you there, I mean, if you've not been before. It's a whole weekend of basically this podcast brought into vivid life right in front of your eyes, but with other historians and other performers and talks and tanks and conviviality.

[James Holland]

Insane amounts of hardware.

[Al Murray]

Insane amounts of hardware. And the other listeners and the really great things put names to faces and you're in a hole. You're in a giant two, three fields of people who do not glaze over when you talk about the Second World War.

[James Holland]

No.

[Al Murray]

Where else, where else do you want to be in mid September next year?

[James Holland]

Yeah. People find their tribe there.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

That's all you can say.

[Al Murray]

We hope you have a fantastic Christmas. Look forward to seeing you soon. Thanks very much for listening.