Podcast Summary: WW2 Pod – "The Tory Party At War"

Episode Details:

• Title: The Tory Party At War
• Release Date: May 28, 2025
• Hosts: Comedian Al Murray and historian James Holland
• Guest: Kit Covell, historian and author of Blue Jerusalem

1. Introduction to British Conservative Politics During WWII

The episode delves into the intricate dynamics of the British Conservative Party during the Second World War, a subject often overshadowed by the broader narratives of the war. Host Al Murray introduces Kit Covell, who authored Blue Jerusalem, a book that explores the internal machinations of the Conservative Party amidst the global conflict.

Notable Quote:

[04:18] Kit Covell: "Churchill is a man who is very much not loved by the Tory grassroots or by the Tory hierarchy."

2. Winston Churchill's Complex Relationship with the Conservative Party

Kit Covell discusses Churchill's atypical position within the Conservative Party. Despite being a staunch Tory, Churchill was initially distrusted and disliked by many within his own party. His departure from the Conservatives and subsequent rejoining heightened tensions, positioning him as a central yet controversial figure.

Key Points:

• Churchill's Popularity: Initially viewed as an "alcoholic" and "dangerous," Churchill's reputation transformed into that of a national hero.
• Party Schism: His polarizing presence indicated deep divisions within the Conservative ranks during the war.

Notable Quote:

[05:08] Kit Covell: "He's not his. His support is not within the Conservative Party yet today he's thought of as the greatest Conservative leader there's ever been."

3. The Impact of "Guilty Men" on Conservative Reputation

The discussion shifts to the influential book Guilty Men, which criticized the Conservative government's appeasement policies pre-WWII. This publication solidified negative perceptions of the Tories, portraying them as responsible for Britain's initial wartime setbacks.

Key Points:

• Public Perception: Guilty Men reinforced the idea that Conservative policies led to military defeats, such as Dunkirk.
• Historical Narrative: The book remains pivotal in shaping the historiography of appeasement and Conservative leadership.

Notable Quotes:

[14:03] Al Murray: "Guilty Men is... an absolutely remarkable piece of journalism."

[15:04] Al Murray: "Is the truth. It's certainly in politics."

4. The 1942 No-Confidence Debate and Strategic Critiques

In July 1942, following the fall of Tobruk, a no-confidence debate emerged within the Conservative Party. Tory MPs, led by Sir John Wardlaw Milne, criticized Churchill's strategic direction, particularly his approach to arms and armaments.

Key Points:

• Weapons Procurement: Criticism focused on British tanks being under-gunned and under-armored compared to German models.
• Strategic Direction: Debates encompassed whether to prioritize land warfare, bomber fleets, or naval strength.
• Political Maneuvering: Conservative backbenchers used strategic critiques as a means to challenge Churchill's leadership without directly opposing his popularity.

Notable Quote:

[25:47] Kit Covell: "John Wardlaw Milne says, 'What we need is a grand war supremo.'"

5. Debates Over Military Strategy: Land, Air, or Sea

The episode explores the divergent opinions within the Conservative Party regarding the optimal military strategy. Some advocated for a focus on tanks and land warfare, others on building a formidable bomber fleet, while a faction emphasized naval dominance to protect the British Isles and Empire.

Key Points:

• Land Warfare: Emphasis on improving tank performance and reliability.
• Air Warfare: Proposals for massive bomber fleets to conduct nightly raids over Germany.
• Naval Focus: Advocating for a strong navy to safeguard the Empire and defer continental conflicts.

Notable Quote:

[30:08] Kit Covell: "Sir Nor Pemberton Billing... argues for gigantic fleets of bombers that would stream over Germany every night."

6. The Labour Party's Ascendance and the 1945 Election

Amidst wartime challenges, the Labour Party began to gain traction by presenting compelling visions for Britain's post-war future. The Conservatives, beleaguered by internal dissent and public criticism from works like Guilty Men, struggled to maintain their standing.

Key Points:

• Public Opinion: By mid-war, Labour appeared more capable of addressing Britain's reconstruction needs.
• Election Results: The 1945 general election resulted in a landslide victory for Labour, reshaping British politics.
• Manifesto Strategies: Notably, the Conservative manifesto focused on national unity and competency without explicitly mentioning the party itself, while Labour emphasized competence and welfare.

Notable Quotes:

[43:12] Al Murray: "They do suffer a national defeat and labor do very well pretty much everywhere."

[43:38] Kit Covell: "The Conservative Manifesto doesn't mention the word Conservative once."

7. The Role of Beveridge and the Welfare State

The conversation highlights the pivotal role of William Beveridge and his report, which laid the groundwork for the post-war welfare state. While Beveridge's report was officially mundane, its introduction captivated public imagination by addressing the "five giants": idleness, want, disease, ignorance, and squalor.

Key Points:

• Welfare Reform: Beveridge's proposals for universal healthcare, pensions, and social insurance resonated across political spectrums.
• Political Alignment: These reforms garnered support from Labour, Liberals, and even some Conservatives, showcasing a rare convergence of political ideologies.
• Long-Term Impact: The welfare state became a cornerstone of post-war British society, fundamentally altering the relationship between the citizen and the state.

Notable Quote:

[34:05] Kit Covell: "It really does capture the imagination in a way that I don't think any report has ever done."

8. The Decline of Imperialism in British Politics

The episode examines the decline of imperialism as a dominant force in British politics post-WWII. Despite Churchill's staunch imperialist views, the realities of the war and shifting global dynamics led to the gradual dismantling of the British Empire.

Key Points:

• Imperial Concerns: Within the Conservative Party, there was significant anxiety about maintaining the Empire amidst wartime alliances, particularly with the United States.
• Shift in Focus: The war catalyzed a transition from Empire-centric politics to a focus on national reconstruction and welfare.
• Alternative Histories: Covell posits that different outcomes during the war could have drastically altered Britain's imperial trajectory.

Notable Quotes:

[44:49] Kit Covell: "When people talked about Britain, the 1940s, many of them thought of Britain fundamentally as the British Empire."

[46:09] Al Murray: "Beaver Brooks... sees siding with the Soviet Union as a good thing, because it'll save the British Empire from the Americans."

9. Contingency and Alternative Outcomes in WWII British Politics

Covell emphasizes the role of contingency, personality, and unexpected events in shaping the course of British politics during WWII. He argues against the notion of inevitability in historical outcomes, highlighting how different decisions and circumstances could have led to alternative political landscapes.

Key Points:

• Historical Contingency: The unpredictable nature of war meant that political outcomes were not predetermined.
• Leadership Decisions: Individual choices by leaders like Churchill and Rab Butler had profound impacts on the direction of the Conservative Party and, by extension, British society.
• Future Implications: Covell suggests that understanding these contingencies is crucial for a nuanced view of history.

Notable Quote:

[49:44] Kit Covell: "That's why we love it. That's why it's so interesting. That's why it's fun."

10. Conclusion and Recommendations

The episode wraps up with Covell recommending further readings to explore British politics and WWII history in greater depth, including works by David Edgerton and Rob Crowcroft. Al Murray reflects on the lessons from the war, emphasizing the complexity of political identities and the enduring impact of historical narratives.

Notable Quote:

[51:09] Al Murray: "Which you can when they die, you can take out and you can read, know exactly what was going on in their heads."

Key Takeaways:

• Churchill's Dual Legacy: Viewed both with disdain and reverence within the Conservative Party, Churchill's leadership was pivotal yet divisive.
• Impact of Guilty Men: The publication significantly tarnished the Conservative reputation, influencing public perception and wartime politics.
• Internal Party Debates: Strategic disagreements within the Conservatives highlighted broader questions about Britain's military focus and post-war reconstruction.
• Labour's Rise: Effective post-war proposals and shifting public sentiment led to Labour's decisive victory in 1945.
• Decline of the British Empire: WWII acted as a catalyst for the gradual dissolution of British imperialism, reshaping national identity and global standing.
• Historical Contingency: Understanding the unpredictable factors that influenced wartime politics offers a richer, more nuanced historical perspective.

Additional Resources:

• Books Mentioned:
  • Blue Jerusalem by Kit Covell
  • Churchill: A Career and Failure (unnamed author)
  • One Million Allies if We Choose by Tom Richingham
  • Rise and Fall by David Edgerton
  • Works by Rob Crowcroft and Morris Cowling

This episode offers a compelling exploration of the Conservative Party's internal struggles and strategic debates during WWII, providing listeners with a deeper understanding of Britain's political landscape during a tumultuous period.