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WW2 Pod: We Have Ways of Making You Talk
The Visionaries: From Recovery To Rearmament (Part 2)
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- [00:02]
Al Murray
Thank you for listening to we have ways of making you talk. Sign up to our Patreon to receive bonus content, live streams, and our weekly newsletter with money off books and museum visits as well. Plus early access to all live show tickets. That's patreon.com we haveways.
- [00:24]
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- [00:51]
James Holland
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- [00:55]
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- [01:22]
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- [02:02]
Al Murray
Economic privation proceeds by easy status, and so long as men suffer it patiently, the outside world cares little. Physical efficiency and resistance to disease slowly diminish. But life proceeds somehow, until the limit of human endurance is reached at least, and councils of despair and madness stir the sufferers from the lethargy which precedes the crisis. Then man shakes himself and the bonds of custom are loosed. The power of ideas is sovereign, and he listens to whatever instruction of hope, illusion, or revenge is carried to him on the air. That's John Maynard Keynes, of course. The Economic Consequences of the Peace in 1919 welcome to we have Ways of Making youg Talk for the second part of our series, the Visionaries, looking at the swirl of events and ideas before and after the second World war and the way that Presidents Franklin Delano Roosevelt and Harry S. Truman responded to those ideas. I think that's the best summary, isn't it, Jim?
- [02:54]
James Holland
Yeah, I think it's absolutely perfect.
- [02:55]
Al Murray
In our last episode we, we dangled you the ultimate economic cliffhanger, the mother of all crashes, I think synonymous with the idea of economic crashes. In fact, the Wall street crash, because Germany was getting back on its feet. Reparations were playing themselves out. The British had, British had done what they could. Winston Churchill, not good with his personal finances and not brilliant with the nations either. Let's be honest now and try to get Britain back on the gold standard. The French were doing what they could to cope with the trauma of the, of the First World War, but.
- [03:30]
James Holland
And Germany is recovering very well. Germany is doing really well. I mean, Weimar is thriving, it's progressive, it's liberal, it's cultured and it's becoming a byword for high quality engineering and manufacturing. And it's getting a growing export market, which is exactly what it needs. So all is fine and dandy.
- [03:51]
Al Murray
One of the consequences of the First World War is that America is now the dominant economy in the world. So what happens in America will affect everywhere else. This is why, you know, when the Wall street crash happens, it buggers stuff up for everybody else. Let's just say it like that. Why not?
- [04:08]
James Holland
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, let's just say that. But let's also just contextualize the Wall street crash a little bit. So it is becoming clear in the 1920s that the US has very much abandoned Wilson's utopian vision for unconditionally cooperative global relations. It's not in the League of Nations, it's this long decades of isolationism is starting to take root. There is definitely a degree of aloofness towards Europe. It's the Anson regime. You know, Americans got to America because they were trying to escape Europe in the first place, after all. But it is also entrenched by now by new immigration policy, which is much tighter. They don't want lots of people coming in. Much, much tighter immigration laws. There's suddenly, there's a reduced demand for labour. So they have the national origins Act of 1924 which reduces the immigrant quota from 800,000 per year to just 150,000 per year. And they act on it very quickly. There's none of this sort of political asylum or anything like that. The act also splits the 150,000 into national quotas and if one national quota isn't filled, the excess can't be picked up by another country, which is going to be important later on in the 1930s. And it denies visa entry to anyone likely to be a significant cost of public finances. And there's no provisions for any religious or political asylum seekers at all. You know, America is changing in the 1920s, I think it's fair to say. There is also legislating protectionism. So in late September 1922, there's the Fordney Macomber Tariff act, which hikes up duties on imports, so 38.5% for dutiable imports with an average of 14% across the board. And this is to protect American industry, but of course. And foreign countries impose retaliatory tariffs, which of course is always what happens. So France increases tariffs on cars coming into America, for example, from 45 to 100%, which is why you don't see large numbers of American cars in Europe in the 1920s and 30s. You know, what you see is Citroens and Renaults and you know, Austins and Morrises and all the rest of it. Henry Ford is against the tariffs. He comes out in 1928, insists on the importance of foreign markets. He's absolutely right about all this. American farmers also become discontented because there's no foreign competition, which means the cost of American made agricultural equipment is doubling, which is stifling progression because most farmers can't afford the mechanization which is coming in. Food and clothing prices are also soaring as well. But cracks are appearing, of course, by the end of the 1920s. In this triumph of the booming American economy, white supremacy is gaining strength in the South. And there is this growth of the Ku Klux Klan. You know, there's white supremacists, these are the white hoods and all the rest of it and so on. And there's over 460 lynchings between 1919 and, I don't know, 1935 or something like that. There is also prohibition has been brought in. So this is the age of the gangster. And prohibition related crime is also growing. But at the same time, the automobile, as we touched on in the last episode, is having this transformative effect on the American society and economy because of the rise of consumerism. It means it's easier for even working class people to buy a car on credit, it has to be said. So there's a huge spike in demand for petrol, steel, rubber, glass, paint, lever. More cars, more roads, more mobility, more wealth, increasingly interconnected and modern America. And wages, of course are rising. They rise 26% from 1920 to 1929. And of course this means there's more purchasing power for ordinary people to buy company shares. And what does this lead to? It means the debt mountain rises steeply.
- [08:10]
Al Murray
Yes. They're storing up some troubles for themselves here and there are some sort of like tinglings of warnings. So American farmers in early 29, their prices fall, fall due to surplus production. If you're tariffing stuff and overproducing, you know, and you can't export, there's going to be a crunch, isn't there? And American consumers also start spending less, which again leads to a surplus in manufacturing industries. You could see why Ford wants, wants to sell cars abroad because basically you can only sell so many cars in America. Wages stagnate as a consequence and consumer spending starts to slow down.
- [08:50]
James Holland
And I think it's important to say just very quickly is that banks are unregulated at this stage. They can live whatever they like. They're not going to have any legal issues with that.
- [09:01]
Al Murray
Yeah. And so on the 24th of October 1929, investors panic and start selling shares in huge numbers. There's something snaps just like that Black Thursday, it's known as, in the sort of panic. Bankers and financiers, they try to stabilize the situation, but people keep carry on selling shares funded by loans that they can't afford anymore. Because this is the cycle, this is the cycle that's now in motion. Banks collapse also with loans that they've taken out that they can't repay. And 16 million shares are sold on the Wall street stock market on that day. On the 24th of October 1929, billions of dollars of value wiped off the stock exchange.
- [09:50]
James Holland
810 billion in fact.
- [09:52]
Al Murray
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's incredible, isn't it? As we said, as we said in the last episode, millionaires meant millionaires back then. That was, you know, some millionaires lose pretty much everything overnight. You know, this is a great big rock of an economic disaster that's being lobbed into the global pool. And so the ripples are going to be immediate and global. And the, the country that owes the Americans the most money that's tangled up most in American finance is Germany, of course, because the British are trying, the British have got their own issues with their, with the Empire. The French have got their own situation. But Germany is the economy that's needed help. It's gone to the Americans for help. And with the Americans now in the, in the doo doo, Germany has to be the first to be affected because this basically pours gasoline onto the German situation and sets fire to it. And we intimated this in the last episode, there's a slice of German opinion that thinks they, they, that if they did lose the First World War, but it was nothing to do with them, that in fact they didn't lose the First World War, they were winning the First World War. And there are signs to indicate that in March of 1918, that's the Brest Litovsk Treaty, where Lenin's brand new Soviet government basically to get out of the war and to shut the war down. Because after all, a big accusation against the Tsarist government is that the war's unnecessary and it's bad at fighting the war and we need to get out of the war. And Kerensky, the interim government, the Krensky government, doesn't pull out of the war, tries to carry on fighting it. So Lenin throws in the towel and in doing so gives up tons of territory, a third of its pre war population and 90% of its coal, lots of its natural resources.
- [11:37]
James Holland
So this is a huge victory for the Central Powers, it's a huge victory for Germany. And this comes in March 1918. So at the start of 1918, the Germans think they're winning. And, you know, there's not very many who would doubt that, to be perfectly honest. And as if to prove the point, they then launched this huge offensive in that same month, March 1918, which pushes back the French and the British, particularly past St. Quentin and, you know, back across the Somme and all the rest of it. And it looks like they're winning. I mean, it really, really does. But they can't make the final breakthrough. They run out of steam, makes them vulnerable to the counterattack. There's also massive casualties in the course of this huge offensive. What the French and the British realise, the British particularly, because they've absorbed the greatest weight of this spring offensive thrust, is that actually the front can be a lot more mobile and flexible than they thought it could be. And by retreating backwards, they're then waiting till the Germans have got to the point of greatest weakness and then they counterattack. Does that sound familiar, by the way, to anyone who's listened to us talking about the German way of war in the Second World War? It's the exact reverse, isn't it? It's the Germans, yeah, counterattacking the point of greatest weakness, etc. Etc. Anyway, the Allies are able to push back. The Germans by this point, have just run out of steam. They've lost their opportunity to win. They can't afford it anymore. They're running out of resources, running out of Everything. The victory against Russia in the spring has not provided the dividends they wanted. Cut a long story short, they call for an Armistice in November 1918, which leads us neatly to a certain character called Adolf Hitler.
- [13:24]
Al Murray
Well, yes, if you're a corporal in the army and you think things have been going well and interestingly, he's also made it through the entire thing relatively unscathed, which I think is kind of, kind of interesting, isn't it? You know, you'd think it was going all right, right? Yeah.
- [13:37]
James Holland
A bit of gas, a bit of blindness, that's. That's all right. Yeah.
- [13:39]
Al Murray
But he's, but he's in one piece, right? And, and the, the thing is, is if you've endured four years of that and it turns out you've lost and it was for nothing and the, the world is asking you to empty your piggy bank as a consequence, you, you might have, you might have some feelings about that.
- [13:58]
James Holland
You might not be in a happy place.
- [14:00]
Al Murray
You might not be in your best, in your best mood, particularly if all your dreams had been crushed before the war. Your dreams of being an artist or an architect. What's interesting though is that really without the. Germany has been essentially a military government for the last four years and that the military have been running the war, not politicians. It's been the military that have run the conduct of the First World War on all fronts for the Germans. And it's men like von Hindenburg and Ludendorff who. And it's the Ludendorff offensive, you know, Operation Michael, which is the, the German spring offensive in March of 1980 is the Ludendorff offensive. It's his bloody scheme, right? They get to work on it right away as soon as the war ends is blame it on everyone except themselves. And it's them that know they have to sue for peace. There's a communist back mutiny in the German navy at Kiel in November 1918. And von Hindenberg claims basically that they were stabbed in the back by the socialist government that's incoming. The parliament that exists in Germany, it's a puppet parliament. And obviously they start pointing at the people who've made money out of the war and they start pointing at, you know, Germany is an anti Semitic country before the First World War, make no mistake. You know, the word anti Semitism is invented by a German politician in order to sort of make it sound like hating Jews is scientific or rational or something. And he leans hard into that. And this narrative is then sort of turbocharged by the Versailles Treaty, by the war, the war Guilt clause, which in the last episode, I think we emphasized might be something that might upset Germans, the army. The fact that the army that believes it isn't defeated is. Has to be reduced to 100,000 soldiers. They're not allowed any proper shipping, they're not allowed any planes. And also, there's a feeling that Wilson came to town all idealistic and that he's let Germany down, betrayed Germany, which is quite. I mean, it's quite the flex, isn't it, for Germany after the First World War to say we have been betrayed. I mean, this just shows that when people are upset and angry, it doesn't matter what the facts are. Their feelings are the facts.
- [16:11]
James Holland
Yes, absolutely. And the war guilt clause, which becomes. Which they call a diktat, don't they? It's basically, you know, signing the confession when you've just been waterboarded. I mean, that's basically what they're saying. And therefore it doesn't really count. You know, the stab in the back myth is really commandeered by a certain part of the population and those old military war leaders to mask the reality of German hubris and militarism at the beginning of the war, which fueled the disastrous misjudgments and ultimately led to defeat. You know, senior figures like von Hindenburg just simply can't face this truth. And neither can the rank and file such as Hitler or most of the soldiers who feel they've now suffered for nothing. And the newly formed dap, which is the Deutsche Arbeitpartei, the German Workers Party, helps disseminate this myth. And it argues that Jews and Bolsheviks are at the centre of a global conspiracy that causes Germany's downfall. And the Jews are also responsible for the Treaty of Versailles too. And the party is based in Munich, in Bavaria, to which Hitler has gravitated after the war, even though he's Austrian and from Linz. And he also observes the rise and swift fall of the Bavarian Soviet Republic, whose leaders were mainly Jewish, as it happens. And Hitler had won an Iron Cross for his service in the First World War, but emerges from the conflict only a lance corporal, and there is intense anger within him and resentment for his own personal failures and those of his countries. He's removed from the army in October 1918, having been temporarily blinded by muster cats right at the end of the war. And there's some dispute about this blindness of how much is a physical blindness and how much is a mental one. But anyway, he recovers and he's sent on a propaganda course by a kindly old Officer of his and he's employed to lecture former soldiers on the dangers of Bolshevism. And what he discovers is that this is an outlet to articulate ideas that have been forming for a while. And it's also his first taste of origin. It turns out he's really good at it.
- [18:27]
Al Murray
Well, it's, for once in his life he's good at something. It's, it's a very odd moment in Hitler's life as he finds something he's actually good at. And, and the crowds love him. He like, he likes the crowds. It, you know, I know nothing about what fun it is to have crowds on your side. And you know, it's a long, long time ago. But, but you know what I mean. He's completely intoxicated by it. And his, his scapegoating of Jews resonates with people still running for the war. I mean, Deutsche Bharta Pate, they do, they do amp this myth up. But this is a common idea. This is an idea that's very much got its, got its boots on. And in the party you've another nationalist and anti Semite, Anton Drexler, changes the party's name to the National Sozialistische Deutscher Arbeiter Parti, which is the Nazi party for short, the Nazis.
- [19:25]
James Holland
And he does that in February 1920.
- [19:27]
Al Murray
And then Hitler, whose success nothing succeeds like success. So Hitler in the, in the following summer, in July of 21, elbows Drexler aside as party leader. And it's all about being hyper masculine. It's about a controlling, aggressive ideology, possible compensation on a personal level. We, you know, I guess we'll never know. And his past failures are all part of, part and parcel of how he expresses himself through his politics. It's all about them and us. That there's them, the enemy Jews and communists. And because Marx is a Jew, he can say that Communism is a Jewish idea. This is the intellectual temperature of the racism that Hitler has at the center of his thinking. If someone Jewish thought it up, then it's Jewish enough significant players in the Soviet Union who are Jews that he can go look, you see, I mean it's, that's the, that's the depth of the thinking here. And the US is the US to the them is white, Northern European, racially pure Christian Germans who'd fought in the First World War. The deal between them and the country has been betrayed and betrayed and undercut by the Jews, the Bolsheviks, Woodrow Wilson, the West perfidious Albion, the ghastly French, and of course the lurking Bolshevist Slav threat to the east, and of course this horrible upstart Poland thing that is a product of all of those. All of those people, agents and circumstances. This is all about the idea of feeling left behind and betrayed and the back of the back of the world's queue, when in fact you should be the front of the world's queue because you're the greatest people on the planet who only lost because you were trained, not because you bit off far more than you could chew. And so there's this idea of a people's community, a Volksgemeinschaft, which is the idea of cultural and ethnic beliefs that are shared within a German people. There's an idea of a racial purity that is inherently anti Semitic as well. There's Jews on one side who are evil and rotten and undermining Germany at the same time as being brilliantly clever and manipulative. So there's already contradictions in its thinking. Even though Jews have been in Europe, in Germany for ages, for all time, basically, and they're not new in Germany at all. And in fact, many have vanished and vanished effectively and integrated completely. Although of course that is seen as sneaky in the, in the anti Semitic mindset that seems wicked in itself, hiding, you know, because basically if you're an anti Semite, you can, you can come up with a, you know, you can say that's a false flag. And then if you. Someone's found to really be actually anti Semitic, you say, well, the Jews have made them do it.
- [22:16]
James Holland
But, but it's interesting, isn't it, because there's Volksgemeinschaft, but then there is this cohesion which is brought around by the veterans of the First World War, blokes in their 20s and 30s. And this is called Front Gemineshaft. And this is basically an extension of Volksgemeinschaft. A community. Yeah. Specifically comprising Germans who fought in the war. A sense of military brotherhood, tribalism, you know, the unique kind of awfulness of their experiences brings them together under an entirely false but quite compelling narrative. And Hitler, when he does his talks, is very clear in his messaging. You know, the Germans are a great people, but their two enemies, the Jews and the Bolsheviks, are at the root of all the evil. A new order would expel these people and offer Aryan hegemony and prosperity amongst Lebensraum, this living space, this expansionist idea for complete national self sufficiency. And, you know, it has a resonance, all this. You know, people want to be part of a gang. They want to feel that the grievances and resentment and anger they're feeling is shared by other people. And here you've got someone articulating it in a very, very compelling way. But it has to be said that the Nazi party is still only a very much a fringe force. The Weimar Republic as a social democracy is growing in strength after the stabilization of the currency. And the Dawes plan post 1923, end of 1923, which is when it all changes. And they're known as the Golden Twenties, the Goldina Zwanziger. And it is amazing to think that The Nazis win 2.6% of the vote in the 1928 election, which is, you know, diddly squat, isn't it? And the Young Plan further enhances Germany's chances, which is sorted out in the early part of the spring of 1929. It spreads the war reparations over an even longer period until 1988 is when the reparations have to be repaid. So this means that annual repayments are reduced, which means there's less injustice, so to speak, for the Nazi rhetoric to exploit. And, you know, all looks swimmingly. Well, it all looks absolutely fine until the Wall street crash.
- [24:41]
Al Murray
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I think this is a moment that is sort of really quite contingent, isn't it? Is that the Americans don't have to do what they decide to do, could have done something differently and we maybe would get a different outcome because the Nazis only winning 2.6% of the vote. It's the glimmer of hope that all fringe parties must console themselves with when they, you know, after they have a battering at a general election, they all go to the pub together in their costumes, right, and, and, and their, and their leather underpants or whatever and say, yeah, yeah, but in 1928, Adolf only got 2.6% of the vote. And look at a few years later. That must be what you do or you're sat round drinking your, drinking your post election drug drubbing drinks. Yeah, you know, there's the glimmer, there's the glimmer, you know, he did it, we can do it. Germany is pregnant with possibility in that, that there are people who are upset about the war and there are people who've had a rough ride with the hyperinflation. But there's also, it's contingent in Germany too, because what, you know, what the Americans do is one thing, and then how German politicians also respond to it. It's very, very interesting. And none of this is Fated, I think, is the interesting thing about it. So, as we said, US$8.10 billion have been wiped out of the stock exchange by the time it closes at 3 o' clock on Black Tuesday. I'd have shot at noon. I don't know about you, Jim, I wouldn't have waited till three.
- [26:03]
James Holland
Yeah, so it's basically, there's the first day, which is Black Thursday, then there's a Friday, then there's a weekend, then there's Monday and Tuesday. It's all over. So it's kind of four days of financial market mayhem.
- [26:14]
Al Murray
Absolute carnage. Yeah. And banks go under 100,000, businesses go bankrupt. Unemployment goes from 1.6 million to 14 million by 1933. So one in four of the working population out of work. So it's not just that. The thing is, it's not just that week. It's like a massive, massive, massive shock. There's no confidence in stocks and shares, so credit collapses. No one will lend, no one can borrow. There's not enough cash in circulation because a lot of what was previously circulation was actually debt, was borrowed money. So once you get the pin, you know, the pinch on debt and credit, there's no money around, so wages, loans and bills can't be paid. It's a sort of perfect storm, really, financially. And so if you're the government, Jim,
- [27:03]
James Holland
you've got a different president from, from, from the days of Warren Harding. You've now got President Herbert Hoover. He's a little bit in above his head, isn't he? To put it mildly, urges businesses not to lower wages. Federal Reserve, which thank God they've even got that now, cuts interest rates. Congress agrees to 100 million bailout. It's briefly, briefly, briefly helpful. But then they do this terrible, terrible thing which is sort of has been talked about in recent times, but has, up until President Trump's tariffs, I think, had been kind of consigned to the dustbin of history comes the Smoot Hawley Tariff act, which is passed on 28 May 1930. It introduces agricultural industrial tariffs as protectionist measures for farmers. Passed in the House before the crash and should have immediately been, you know, thrown out with the dishwater, but it isn't. And 1028 leading economists sign a petition urging Hoover not to do it. Don't Sign the bill, Mr. President. And he is personally against it, but he signs it anyway in the kind of midst of pressure from his cabinet members and also from Congress. And so this tariff war begins and the consequences are just absolutely appalling. I mean, mayhem ensues, it's fair to say, not just within America's borders. I mean the smooth, horny tariffan is a catastrophe for the United States, but it's even worse for those economies which are just sort of crawling out of the mire of the First World War and the Spanish flu and starting to make sense of things and get back on track. It is absolutely calamitous.
- [28:53]
Al Murray
Yeah, well, and mayhem ensues. So obviously many of America's trading partners impose retaliatory tariffs. Of course they do. So Canada, Mexico and Cuba. U.S. imports fall by 66%. So from 4.4 billion in 1929 to 1.5 billion in 1933.
- [29:11]
James Holland
It's quite a lot. It's quite a draw.
- [29:13]
Al Murray
Yeah. But also no one's got any money to buy anything. So you know, that's compounded, isn't it? Like you've double dipped here. U.S. exports fall by 61%. 5.4 billion to 2.1 billion. I mean, that's good, you know, that's going to hurt. And given that we were earlier saying, Henry Ford is saying, can we please expand export vehicles abroad? Because he knows there's only so many that can be sold in America anyway.
- [29:37]
James Holland
So it is hard to understand how anyone today could think that a trade war would be a good idea.
- [29:43]
Al Murray
But anyway, well, because, you know, because if you don't understand that the world is an integrated system, that's a global system where, you know, you pull one lever in one place and the other other governments have agencies. Well, you can't just do things unilaterally, inspect, expect other people not to go. Hang on.
- [29:59]
James Holland
If you don't understand that problems ensue
- [30:01]
Al Murray
and it's weird that you, it's weird that you might not as well. GDP is falling all across Europe between 1925 and 1935. It falls 5% in Britain, you know, and that's considering Britain has a big empire. That is a big drop. 15% in France and in Germany it's far worse. So production is halved by 1932 and more than 1/3 of the population, 8 million people, is unemployed. And a German observer says the whole nation is enveloped in distress. Official interference is of no avail. The people live in a veritable hell of meanness, oppression and disease.
- [30:38]
James Holland
The worst thing of all is that the national banks in Vienna and Berlin collapse.
- [30:44]
Al Murray
And things had been okay. We'd had the golden Zwanziger, we'd just come out of things being okay. And very often revolutions happen when the Good times stop rather than during and necessarily a period of bad times. It's when the, when the, when things grind to a halt and suddenly life is disrupted that you can get. You can get. You. You get a revolutionary disruption. If the Nazis are one thing, they're revolutionaries. So Hoover is ideologically wedded to American individualism because he's come from Iowa, he's been a mining millionaire and all that sort of thing. So he doesn't think that the state should intervene. And America, this is. This is the sort of, you know, iconic age of the Great Depression. Tent cities, shanty towns nicknamed Hoovervilles pop up. Hoover then thinks, right, okay, we need to raise money. So the government needs to raise money. So he introduced the revenue act in 1932, which is, you know, austerity measures, raising taxes for everybody. The Highest rate is 63% tax, which is, you know, you want rich. In this situation, one thing you might want to do is get rich. People spending money to kickstart the economy and they're being taxed heavily, you know. Yeah. He goes against Keynes advice for governments, which is to spend more to bolster the economy, boost jobs and growth.
- [32:04]
James Holland
This is called countercyclical. Countercyclical economy. This principle that you spend more to get the whole thing, the ball rolling
- [32:12]
Al Murray
again, and then once the ball's rolling, you can spend less. But Hoover's measures don't work. Then. Natural disaster exacerbates existing poverty. So you have a drought that starts in 1930 in the Midwest and the. And the Great Plains, the prairies. There's been better weather in the 20s, so there's been over farming. And it's interesting how the economy and the farming sort of mirror one another in this. You know, the better time for farming is when there's a better time economically,
- [32:39]
James Holland
yes, but also because. Because there's greater demand for food and because people are expanding and there's better means of getting this food around America. So it's less localized, it's more nationalized, so there's greater pressure to produce more food, which means there's greater pressure on the land, which means that when you've got any climate disaster, the pressures on that land suddenly increase in a way that they hadn't when there wasn't a climate disaster. So, in other words, the boom years of the 1920s are directly responsible for what becomes known as the Dust bowl, which is where the drought causes these massive dust storms that strips the topsoil off its areas and scatters it hundreds of miles away as far as Chicago and even in D.C. you know, in Washington D.C. where there is this sort of red fog descends over, you know, coming out of the sky where it's been, you know, this soil has been dropped down on it. So huge swathes of land become untenable for farming. And it's really worth people just looking up photographs of the dust bolt because they're sort of half buried Model T Fords and you know, wooden farms, sort of, you know, up to the second floor and all this kind of stuff. And huge rural poverty ensues, you know, and this is the dust bowl. It's, it's just amazing how symbolic the
- [33:53]
Al Murray
dust bowl is of America's problems. It's sort of, it's a bit on the nose, isn't it? I mean, often we joke on this, on this podcast about, you know, the writers overdone it here. But the dust bowl, the dust bowl coinciding with the crash feels like someone's just leaning too hard into the cliches. The problem in Weimar is that for all the success that comes with economic, you know, re establishment of the German economy and of its democratic government, there are some extremely conservative players, institutions, elites within Germany that do not like the democracy that's been imposed on Germany after the First World War. They are not happy about it, especially in the military which after all has had its, has been emasculated by the Versailles Treaty. They're feeling very, very, very, very sore and in, and in government and in business as well. And there's a sense that party politics isn't working. Democracy isn't the answer, that whatever levers they pull, they don't work. And the Depression, the crash makes this, makes this far, far worse that there are enough conservative forces prepared to work in part working coalition together to keep the left out so the left can't come in and do whatever they want to do to solve the problem. Or even the centre left. There's a critical mass of conservative voters and politicians that mean that in March 1930, President von Hindboek, with the collapse of a five party coalition in March 1930, he brings in an economist called Heinrich Bruning. Using his emergency powers, he brings in him as an unelected and independent technocratic chancellor.
- [35:33]
James Holland
Basically Bruning is an economist and he's been very involved in the Renton mark which was brought in in 1923. He's a very sound economist. But the problem is the very rich are all right because just let's say for example, you're worth in today's money, 5 billion and you lose, lose 1 billion. You still got 4 billion, aren't you? So you're still fine. It's the people, it's the middle classes and the working classes who aren't fine because suddenly their jobs are lost and their incomes have been slashed or taken away from them entirely. And that means they've got to sell their house. And there's lots of very, very angry people who are going, here we go again, this democracy lark isn't working. And they're not very impressed by austerity measures which he tries to introduce, are twice rejected by the Reichstag, which then means he has to dissolve the Reichstag to force them through and force another election, which isn't very democratic anyway. And so suddenly the Nazi vote share rises to 18.3%, no longer 2.6%, and the German Communist Party, the KPD, becomes the country's second largest party. So this is not good. Bruning pushes through these measures, his austerity measures, nullifying various progressive welfare policies of previous years, and also stresses to the US that Germany can't pay the reparations anymore. So the US agrees to a one year pause which is later extended. And this does mean, of course, that reparations are effectively cancelled from this point. But as the suffering of the people continues, in an echo of that opening statement that we read out, that you read out from Maynard Keynes, so the trust in democracy arose and there is this feeling that when the working class people of any nation are subjugated too far, that is when they rise up and look for alternatives.
- [37:26]
Al Murray
And the fact that the Communist has the Communist Party's second largest party is really putting the fear in the conservative elements in German politics and society. You know, yes, the Nazi Party vote share rises to 18.3%. But the fact that the Communists, the second largest party, if anything's, if anything's going to like, upset people's concern about a possible revolutionary moment. That's it, isn't it? And, and you know, all you have to do is point at Bolshevik Russia and say, look, look, this is, is this what we want? And so the, and this brings Hitler and his rhetoric into alignment with basically people on the, on the mainstream, right, because they know they're. The last thing they want is this to happen. So bruning resigns in March 1932. He's had enough. And Hitler is exploiting this mass disaffection to rally support. His rhetoric is very, very inflammatory, passionate, angry, but also he always bungs you a note of hope. But if you vote for Me, this will all stop. Don't you worry what you get.
- [38:33]
James Holland
When in democracies, in democracies, when the economy is not working, people go, well, the traditional conservative way of doing things isn't working for me. This gives a voice to the more fringe and people go, well, I wouldn't normally try that, but the established political parties aren't working for me. So what have I got to lose from trying something that's a little bit more out there? These commies, I don't really like them, but the Nazis, I mean, Hitler seems speak a lot of sense to me and frankly, what a lot of what he's saying I kind of agree with. And okay, maybe his anti Semitism is a little bit too far, but, you know, all I care about now is getting my job back and having some more money in my pocket. So I'm going to give it a go. And that's basically how it works. And frankly, nothing has changed.
- [39:22]
Al Murray
Even if your qualification is right though, Jim, because Germany is somewhere quite prepared to go anti Semitic fully. I think sometimes, I think sometimes we make that qualification and maybe we don't, maybe we shouldn't. You know, it's part and parcel of his worldview. And if you don't like the, if you don't like the Bolsheviks, they're Jewish, and if you don't like the Jews, they're Bolshevists, is how it works in the, in the, in the Nazi mindset. And people, people are buying it. I mean, and also he projects modernity, doesn't he? Because he's using air transport to get all over the country, make his speeches. He's got a good campaigning machine. And in 1932, in July 1932, they win 37% of the vote in the elections to become the biggest party in the Reichstag to leapfrog over the Communists. We go back to the 2.8% only five years previously. We go to our friends sat in the pub nursing their baby, shams going, you see, maybe one day we can get 30% of the vote. And they do start losing seats because there's another election in November. They start losing seats, but they're still the biggest party in 1933. In January 1933, he's made Chancellor in an attempt to bring him to heel, give him what he wants, the establishment thinks give him what he wants and then we can contain him, we can fence him in. They don't have the measure of Hitler at all. He immediately dismantles democracy. There's the Enabling act in July of 33, that basically gives all powers to the cabinet and therefore to him. Other parties are banned, the Reichstag's dissolved, they call a snap election and of course because there are no other parties, they win all the seats.
- [41:00]
James Holland
Genius.
- [41:02]
Al Murray
I know, I mean it's effective, right? Following this though. And I think that the sort of, the synchronicity here is fascinating. Only six weeks after Hitler becomes Chancellor, Roosevelt is sworn in as President of the usa. And if the irresistible force is about to meet the immovable object, this is the moment where that is set in motion. And we're going to take a break and we'll come back to look at fdr. Welcome back to way of ways to make you talk with me, Al Murray and James Holland. We ended that half with the synchronicity of Hitler becoming Chancellor and FDR being sworn in as President. And Jim, you, you absolutely love fdr, don't you?
- [41:50]
James Holland
Well, you know, he's unscrupulous, he's, he's Machiavellian and all those sort of things, but I think he's coming, you know, he's being Machiavellian and unscrupulous from a good place. And I think he's, and he's, and he is unquestionably enlightened, he is forward thinking, he has a vision and arguably you can say one of the reasons he's able to enact this vision is because he has four terms as president rather than two or even one. Yes, but anyway, you know, that's, that's a moot point.
- [42:19]
Al Murray
That's by the way.
- [42:21]
James Holland
That's by the way. But anyway. But interestingly, although the elections are the previous November and you then have the transition period in this period you take power in March, not January, it becomes January by 1945, but it is March in 1933. And in his inaugural address he makes a really, really interesting point. It's lots of sort of thing, you know, we only have, the only fear we have is a fear itself and all the rest of it. So he's trying to give, give the American people confidence and there is this confidence that comes in with a new president. But for me one of the things I think is really interesting is the bit that's kind of largely forgotten in his speech, which is about what he calls the good neighbour policy. And he says on the 4th of March 1933, in the field of world policy, I would dedicate this nation to the policy of the good neighbor, the neighbour who resolutely respects himself. And because he does so respects the rights of others, the neighbour who respects his obligations and respects the sanctity of his agreements in and with a world of neighbors. Although he has come into power on an isolationist ticket, FDR is an internationalist to his core. And I think this is really important and very very are consequential for world events. So do not be under any illusion that this is a guy who's only thinking in terms of United States internal domestic issues. He is thinking big right from the word go. And I think it's important that we give a bit of context and background to fdr, don't you?
- [44:02]
Al Murray
I mean, so he's born in upstate New York in 1882. He's from a wealthy family. He's had a top, top draw upbringing and education. He's clever, he's tall, he's handsome, he's good at everything. His internationalist outlook must come from the fact that you know, he went to Europe first went to Europe when he was 7. He's aware of it, not afraid of it. He speaks German and French, he went to Harvard, then to Columbia Law School. He becomes a lawyer in New York City. He marries a distant cousin, Eleanor Roosevelt, who's a niece of Teddy Roosevelt, the President, former President. He becomes New York state senator in 1911, then assistant, she's assistant Secretary of the Navy under Wilson and interestingly advocates for America to enter the first World War because he believes that democracy needs to defeat German militarism and that self determination was the key to global peace. So he's on message with Wilson in that respect.
- [44:52]
James Holland
Very much so.
- [44:53]
Al Murray
He has an affair during the first World War with his secretary, isn't he Lucy Mercer that gets found out and then I think the thing that possibly I think people know about that shapes his life enormously is in 1921 he gets polio which leaves him dependent on a wheelchair. Although he does everything he can to make sure the public don't see him in the wheelchair. And this puts him under enormous personal strain in his day to day life. Getting about going to the toilet, having the strength to get things done, standing up to make speeches. It's all very very hard work for him. Incredibly debilitating disability that he has as a result of his illness. But that doesn't stop him. Quite the opposite. He's Governor of New York in 1929, he stands for president in 1932. So pretty rapid zip up through the higher ranks of American politics. You know, he hasn't done four years as someone's VP as he trod water and the state of American politics in 1932 is the kind that, that delivers landslide victories because presidents have failed up to this point, haven't they, in all their efforts? And he wins all but six states. All but six states. That's a proper landslide as well. Yeah. The following year, the country's still struggling in 33. 2/3. There's 2/3 less money in the US than before the crash. But Roosevelt's a man of action and with a keen mind and he's charismatic. Yeah. And he also knows how to listen. He knows how to take opinion. He knows how to make up his mind. He's very, very, very good at that. He's inscrutable. No one really knows what he's going to do next. He's his own man and his own thinking. And so in the first hundred days, he passes a new banking bill. He brings the country off the gold standard, which means the dollar is no longer static, pinned to an exchange rate. That it, that it doesn't suit it.
- [46:45]
James Holland
It's fair to say that in those first hundred days, I mean, it is a time of, of unprecedented legal action and, and a raft of legislation that goes through. I mean, it is, it is a period of incredible energizing and dynamism and it, and it, and it has an impact, I think it's fair to say.
- [47:06]
Al Murray
And I think what's interesting isn't it, is we said that Hitler is using modern methods of campaigning by flying around the country and takes to adopt the Nazis very much. Lean into radio. Radio is how FDR gets his message across, and he uses radio. He's got a calm, soothing voice. He does his fireside chat. The idea is he's, you know, like a family member or a friend, you know, or your, or your pastor or your bank manager talking to you in a friendly manner.
- [47:34]
James Holland
Yeah. So he's, he's using everyday analogies all the time. So he's like, you know, we're going to do this, and this is a bit like, you know, X and. Yeah. And everyone sort of goes, oh, okay, well, I get it now. And it's just genius. I mean, he is absolutely the master of this. He just gets the popular backing for all these various initiatives and stuff. So he's very, very smart. And what he does is he really gets the economy into some kind of shape or starts putting down some pretty good foundations. So he announces the Emergency Banking act, which is the reopening of federal banks, banks and the guaranteed safety of the cash of it. And the next very next day, deposits exceed Withdrawals at last. Stock prices rise by 15%. Hooray. And $1 billion of cash is previously in private homes. Returns to the vaults. And there is the beginning of what becomes known as the New Deal. So Prohibition, you know, where alcohol have been banned, is overturned by the 21st Amendment, which is a very, very popular move. I mean, why hadn't they fought to do this before? Works programs are created. There's for example, the Civilian Conservation Corps, the ccc, which is young jobless men employed by the government for projects like clearing marshes, building dams, cutting down lumber, all this kind of stuff. There is the Agricultural Adjustment act, underwrites mortgage farmers and prevents foreclosures. There's the Federal Emergency Relief act. Introduces unemployment benefit for the first time ever. There is also the National Recovery Administration, the nra, the Public Works Administration, the PWA, and the Works Progress Administration, which is a wpa. And these are all known as the sort of Alphabet Acts, aren't they? And the New Deal impact isn't completely totalizing. There's still a high private sector unemployment, for example, but it does bring jobs. It brings purpose and public works to those who need it most, you know, and the Democrats actually gain more seats at the midterms, which signals the New Deal's popularity, I would say.
- [49:41]
Al Murray
Subsequently, there's the second New Deal, which includes electricity for farms and the Rural Electrification Administration. They have a heartwarming motto. If you put a light on every farm, you put a light in every heart. I mean, I can't argue with that. Can you argue with that? Of course not. You'd have to have a heart of stone, a dark. The heart of darkness to argue with that. Social insurance program for the elderly, the poor and the sick. National Labor Relations act, which gives workers the right to organize and unionize and the number of union members triples by 1938. That's canny politics too, because basically what you're doing is solidifying a group of people who are part of. Part of the New Deal politically, aren't they? They're going to vote for you, aren't they? I mean, he's no fool. And this is in such stark contrast to previous. Well, you know, the American individual, rugged individual, can cope. Regardless, this is a massive expansion of the state. The ccc, for instance, is likened to communism and German work schemes. Nazi work schemes are bite deeds.
- [50:41]
James Holland
Yeah.
- [50:41]
Al Murray
What's happening though is he is rebooting the economy. It's beginning to work. So basically he wins another landslide in 36 to go back to the good neighbour policy. There's the Reciprocal Trade Agreements act, which he gets through Congress in 34, which means he can overturn the tariffs from
- [50:58]
James Holland
the 20s and the smooth Hawley Tariff act, of course, you know, which is kicked into la grass.
- [51:03]
Al Murray
Yeah, Previous American inter American politics, you know, with the rest of what they see as a sphere of influence. Monroe Doctrine has been the 1898 Spanish Civil War, the Philippine American War. I mean, that's quite a sphere of influence all the way over the Philippines, isn't it, from America. That's quite, that's quite a stretch. That's ugly. Entirely imperial. Roosevelt has this corollary idea which is that the Americans have authority to intervene in Latin American affairs. So, you know, Wilson sends troops to Mexico in 1914, Haiti in 1915, the Dominican Republic in 1916, Cuba in 1917, and then again to Mexico. And there's American soldiers in Nicaragua after an American government, pro American government's installed there. So.
- [51:46]
James Holland
Yeah, but the point with this is, up until FDR and his Good Neighbor policy, which he announces in his inaugural address in March 1933, the American approach to Latin America, Central America and South America has been very aggressive, very dominating. It's our way or the highway. You know, you have the right people. The moment you have a president or someone that we don't approve in, we're going to come in and kick them out. You know, it's all on our terms, very dominant, very bullying. And what Roosevelt says is, nuh, we're not going to do that anymore. We're going to be nice to you guys, we're going to help you out financially because then you'll be more prosperous, you'll be more stable, and then guess what? You'll do more trade with us, which then will make us richer. That's basically the principle.
- [52:32]
Al Murray
This leads him, however, to saying, with his Secretary of State, Cordo Hull, they say that no more intervention. FDR declares the definite policy of the United States from now on is one opposed to armed intervention. So they withdraw from Haiti, the Marines from Haiti, and they overturned the Platt Amendment, which is how they justified intervention in Cuba. And FDR is going to apply this globally.
- [52:59]
James Holland
It's fair to say that FDR makes mistakes in his second term. I mean, particularly the start of his second term. Seven out of nine Supreme Court judges are Republicans have already struck down various New Deal centerpieces in his first term. And one justice, James McReynolds once said, I'll never resign as long as that crippled son of a bitch is in the White House, even though he actually is A Democrat himself, as is fdr. Just as the Supreme Court becomes more accepting of fdr, he then tries to stack the court in his favor by proposing that he can appoint additional judges if existing ones don't retire by the age of 70. This sounds all reasonably harmless on the face of it, but it turns out to be a really bad move because it doesn't work and antagonizes lots of political colleagues. And despite the fact that, of course, that the economy recovery is a bumpy one, Roosevelt undeniably transforms the presidency. There's an unprecedented expansion of federal government. The federal policy is more palpable in ordinary people's lives than ever before. And there is the complete overturning of Hooverism. And the positives by 1939 are that suddenly there is a welfare system in the United States. There are successful public works projects, there are food surpluses, there is huge automobile production. 4.45 million vehicles are manufactured in 1936 alone, 10 times more than are produced in Britain, for example. Exports are up. They are the world leader in essential materials such as iron, steel, coal, cement and so on. There is also a cultural dominance which is really emerging and this is really important because this is soft power, this is soft influence. Hollywood is largely resistant to the Depression because movie theaters keep tickets cheap. And by the mid-1930s, over 2/3 of all Americans are going to the movie theater at least once a week. There was even colour film, Technicolor by the late 1930s. So Snow White, Gone with the Wind, the Adventures of Robin Hood. It's Injustice I hate, not Norman's, with Errol Flynn battling Basil Rathbone on the steps of Nottingham Castle. You know, Los Angeles and New York City are globally renowned centers of modernity and culture. And Hollywood is effectively broadcasting this to the wider world. And the wider world with their hardships and, you know, run downness and difficulties, are seeing this glittering neon, seeing this modernity, the modern cars, the Hollywood stars and all the rest of it, and thinking, oh, that looks quite attractive. But there is a shift of emphasis going on in Europe, isn't there?
- [55:51]
Al Murray
Well, yes, I mean, so in Europe, it's the events. I think we're all really, really, really familiar with, the failure of the Munich Agreement, the failure of what gets called appeasement. If you've listened to this podcast, long term, you probably know that there's kind of more to it than that, than the sort of simply sketched version of the Chamberlain government getting everything wrong and being out foxed at every turn. Britain is rearming it's still not ready yet for the war. It expects it will have to fight against the Germans which of course turns out to be very different to the one it ends up fighting. And Chamberlain and Daladier are still hanging on in there in 1938. In the autumn of 1938 they're not going. They haven't caved yet to Hitler and given him a green light for expansionism. And of course this is a moment one can argue that had Britain and France sort of been a bit tougher, Germany, Germany might have, Hitler might have come undone. But we, you know, we'll, we will never know. Of course FDR makes it clear in, in October 1938 that they're not interested. We covet nothing save good relations with our neighbor. And we recognize that the world today has become our neighbour. So the idea of the good neighbor policies, it's global. He reiterates his call for universal self determination and that the Americans have no claim over any other territory. Of course the, the issue with self determination after the Versailles Treaty is that it's a thing the Nazis can play on. After all that because Germany has been dismembered and slices of the German population have been given to these new, new post Austro Hungarian Empire statelets that the Germans could say, well I thought Nazis can say well what about self determination? Those Germans in Czechoslovakia, they're German, they belong to us, they belong to Germany. They want to block Germany. And it's a real, it's a real, it's the Achilles heel of the Versailles Treaty.
- [57:37]
James Holland
Yeah.
- [57:39]
Al Murray
For Western politicians is that they can't, they're hypocritical if they deny Hitler's call for German self determination in this respect. And you know, yes, Roosevelt's in, in line with that in essence, isn't he? Politically. And then not long after this you have Kristallnacht on the 9th 10th of November 1938 which is the massively radicalizing moment of anti Semitism in Germany where Jewish homes, synagogues, businesses are ransacked and destroyed. 30,000 Jews are arrested and sent to concentration camps. Jews are expected to pay for the damage done. They're told they have to pay for the damage done by rampaging Nazis. The fact that the state doesn't do anything about this is a test by the Nazi regime to see what they can get away with in terms of anti Semitism. And there's international outcry. You know, the Times says no foreign propagandist bent upon blackening Germany before the world could outdo the tale of burnings and Beatings on defenseless, innocent people, which disgraced that country yesterday. But basically the Nazi government's trying it on with its own population to see what it can get away with. And also putting two fingers up firmly to world opinion.
- [58:54]
James Holland
But FDR is now thinking, oh, hang on a minute, this isn't looking good. And there's a lot of people in America thinking, we don't really care. I mean, that's in Europe. It's the other side of the Atlantic. Wants to worry about it. But Roosevelt is thinking, well, I think we do need to worry about this. So he calls a meeting in the Oval Office, in the White House to increase the size of the U.S. army Air Corps. Four days. You know, this happens four days after Kristallnacht to 20,000. Well, that's great. I mean, you know, Whoopi, you know, that means nothing, doesn't it? I mean, he sees expansion of the military as a potential deterrent against Nazi aggression. But the mood is not there for this. And he can't sell this through the public. He'd run and won two elections on an isolationist ticket. So what does the Midwestern farmer care if totalitarian governments are becoming more aggressive on the other side of the world? They don't care about Japan invading China or Italy wanting to conquer East Africa. Let them. So there is a big group of influential isolationist lobbyists in the US and this also includes Charles Lindbergh, who's one of the great heroes, the most famous people in America. You know, he's the guy who's flown solo across the Atlantic in 1927. But it is a very fact that he's flown solo across the Atlantic in 1927. That gives Roosevelt such a pause for concern because he's thinking, well, that was then. Here we are kind of, you know, more than 10 years on, the Atlantic is no longer the great military barrier that it once was. And also in America, despite widespread American sympathy for German Jews, many of the vast majority of Americans, polls and popular opinion suggests, want to uphold the immigration limits of the National Origins act, which we discussed earlier, you know, which back in the 1920s, and in other words, prevent more Jews than the quota allows from fleeing to the U.S. so, you know, then in the mid-30s, Japan and Italy reneged on the London naval treaty of 1930, which limits the size of of navies. And Germany announces the existence of the Luftwaffe in February 1935. So it increasingly looks like the US will need to compete technologically and militarily to exert any kind of resistance against totalitarianism and there are some signs of this in the mid-1930s, which is interesting. The development of the B17 Flying Fortress bomber, which comes in in 35, 1935, I think it is. There is a new civilian airliner, the Douglas DC3, which as we all know, will become the C47. You know, it will drop easy company over d Day in June 1944. America also has the biggest automobile industry in the world, bar none. And therefore lots of mechanics, lots of people who know how to drive, lots of garages and so on, and the industrial strength to be able to kind of transport that into military buildings should they want to. But the big thing that's missing is the willingness of the American public and more importantly, in many ways, the legal framework to make this happen.
- [62:14]
Al Murray
And in our next episode, we'll be looking at just that because it is one of the great political backflips of all time is American. And how entry into the. I mean, it's, it, it's truly astonishing. It, you know, we, we have our own narrative of the British government having to figure it out and Winston Churchill waiting, waiting off stage for his moment. Roosevelt is center stage and manages to turn things around completely, which is really rather amazing. So in our next episode, we'll be looking at that. If you want to hear that episode straight away, go to our Patreon become a way of ways to make you talk Patreon for the price of a. I mean, not even. It's not probably 2/3 of a pint now. I mean, we were talking about hyperinflation in the last episode. What's happened to the British pint Discuss. Anyway, and with live casts and ticket offers for our we have Ways festival this September, which we would love to see you at for much of this kind of war waffle. We will see you very soon. Thank you for listening. Cheerio.
- [63:14]
James Holland
Cheerio.
- [63:27]
Anthony Scaramucci
It is out of control in the White House right now.
- [63:31]
Kati Kay
Welcome to the Rest is Politics us. I'm Kati Kay.
- [63:35]
Anthony Scaramucci
I'm Anthony Scaramucci, who is the worst politician in Washington right now.
- [63:39]
Kati Kay
They don't know how to manage Donald Trump.
- [63:42]
Anthony Scaramucci
I talked to the people that organized the abduction. I'm telling you why they did it.
- [63:47]
Kati Kay
The White House is in a bind.
- [63:48]
Anthony Scaramucci
Anthony, here's what I would say to
- [63:50]
Kati Kay
you about the chaos is the strategy.
- [63:53]
Anthony Scaramucci
It should not have happened and it is a violation of international law.
- [63:57]
Kati Kay
Is he losing control of the party?
- [64:00]
Anthony Scaramucci
I survived 11 days in Trump's White House. I know the SOB.
- [64:04]
Kati Kay
I've been covering politics in Washington for almost 30 years. Twice a week, we break down what what's really going on in Trump's White House.
- [64:11]
Anthony Scaramucci
The big issue for the United States is going to be we were once seen as a benevolent superpower, and now we're seen as an aggressor.
- [64:20]
Kati Kay
You know, he can lie about a lot of things, but he can't lie about what people are feeling about the economy.
- [64:27]
Anthony Scaramucci
If you really want to understand what's going on in Trump's mind, just search. The rest is politics, us, wherever you get your podcasts.