The Visionaries: One War Ends, Another Begins (Part 6)

Summary

Podcast Summary

WW2 Pod: We Have Ways of Making You Talk

Episode: The Visionaries: One War Ends, Another Begins (Part 6)
Hosts: Al Murray, James Holland
Release Date: May 6, 2026

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Episode Overview

The final installment of "The Visionaries" series, this episode explores the closing months of WWII and the seismic shifts that set the stage for the post-war order and the onset of the Cold War. Al Murray and James Holland guide listeners from the fall of Berlin through the death of Roosevelt and the ascension of Truman, the surrender of Japan, and the early days of East-West confrontation. With their signature blend of expertise and wit, the hosts detail the global consequences of victory, the ambitions and legacies of FDR and Truman, and how the policies crafted in this period would define the coming decades.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Inevitable End of Nazi Germany

• By late 1944, Allied leaders predicted the war would end soon, reminiscent of the 1918 German collapse.
• The death of FDR in April 1945 coincides with the Allies’ victory—a moment so dramatic the hosts joke it “feels like the writers over egged the pudding a little” (03:04, Al Murray).
• Hitler's final Ardennes counteroffensive (Battle of the Bulge) is discussed as a futile, wasteful gamble:

  "A gamble suggests you got a chance, which he didn't." (05:44, James Holland)

• Collapse of Germany attributed to Allied bombing, oil shortages, and broken supply lines, leading Hitler to a "Reich or Armageddon" stance.

2. The Pacific War’s Final Phase

• Japanese resistance grows fiercer as Allies near the home islands, leading to brutal battles:
  • “You have to winkle that last man out of that last slit trench out of that last bunker, because the Japanese will not surrender.” (07:17, Al Murray)
• Unconditional surrender is debated; U.S. chooses not to risk a costly ground invasion of Berlin, trusting the Soviets to finish the battle for the city.

3. Roosevelt’s Final Act and the Yalta Conference

• Roosevelt hopes for a cooperative postwar world, believing economic aid can moderate Stalin. “FDR doesn’t have the measure of Stalin really, does he?” (12:04, Al Murray)
• At Yalta, major agreements reached:
  • Germany’s division into four zones
  • Nazi war crimes trials
  • Poland’s altered borders and supposed free elections (“Yeah, yeah, whatever.” - 15:16, James Holland)
  • Formation of the United Nations
• Host reflection: These deals sow the seeds for Cold War tensions over Eastern Europe.

4. Truman’s Surprise Ascendancy and Shifting Policy

• Truman inherits the presidency unprepared and underestimated, famously told by Eleanor Roosevelt,

  “‘Is there anything we can do for you? For you are the one in trouble now.’” (19:19, Eleanor Roosevelt/Al Murray)

• Truman’s first congressional address is praised for its humility and resolve:

  “There is a spine of steel that emerges here.” (20:33, James Holland)

• His view:

  “Today, America’s become one of the most powerful forces for good on earth. We must keep it so. We must now learn to live with other nations for our mutual good.” (21:10, Al Murray quoting Truman)

5. The Atomic Bomb and Japan’s Surrender

• Truman is briefed on the Manhattan Project only after becoming president.
• The dilemma: protracted invasion vs. using the bomb for quick war termination.
• Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings force Japan’s surrender, with the single condition the Emperor remains.

  “He says, in all consciousness, I couldn’t have looked into the eyes of any mother... had I had that bomb and not used it.” (29:28, James Holland quoting Truman)

6. The Fault Lines of Peace: Early Cold War Origins

• Soviet expansionism, as predicted by incoming policy memos, alarms U.S. planners.
• Churchill’s “Iron Curtain” speech at Fulton, Missouri, is positioned as a coordinated effort to shift U.S. public opinion:

  “Churchill is working as an outrider for Truman here, saying the thing Truman needs in public.” (40:21, Al Murray)

• The narrative transitions from Nazi Germany as the enemy to Stalinist Russia as the new threat.

7. The Marshall Plan, Truman Doctrine, and American Postwar Leadership

• Domestic U.S. unrest: mass layoffs, strikes, and looming recession after the end of war production.
• Truman proposes an ambitious 21-point domestic plan and, in foreign policy, supports European recovery and democratic resilience against communism.
  • The Marshall Plan (“European Recovery Program”) is groundbreaking for offering aid to former enemies:

    “The idea that the victors are bailing out the vanquished.” (49:03, James Holland)

• Key quote from Truman:

  “I’m not doing this for credit. I’m doing it because it’s right. I’m doing it because it’s necessary to be done if we are going to survive ourselves.” (56:34, Al Murray quoting Truman)

8. American Hegemony and Moral Legacy

• The U.S. emerges as the sole global superpower due to economic growth and the stabilizing reach of the Marshall Plan and NATO.
• The hosts emphasize the moral, democratic, and visionary aspirations of FDR and Truman, while noting flaws like FDR’s internment of Japanese Americans.
• The episode closes on the tension between the reality and idealism of U.S. power, the challenges to democracy in the modern world, and the enduring importance of the postwar vision.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Stalin’s Toast at Yalta (01:46):

  “I want to drink to our alliance... In the history of diplomacy, I know of no such close alliance of the three great powers as this. I propose a toast. The firmness of our three power alliance. May it be strong and stable.”

• Judgment on Hitler’s Last Gamble (05:44, James Holland):

  “A gamble suggests you got a chance, which he didn’t.”

• Truman's Responsibility (29:45, James Holland):

  “In all consciousness, I couldn’t have looked into the eyes of any mother... had I had that bomb and not used it.”

• Churchill’s Iron Curtain Speech (39:56, Joseph Stalin quoting Churchill):

  “From Stettin to the Baltic to Trieste in the Adriatic, an iron curtain has descended across the continent. If we adhere fully to the charter of the United Nations... the high roads of the future will be clear not only for us, but for all...”

• Al Murray on American Power (53:21):

  “Economic crisis leads to political upheaval... If you turn that on its head, economic prosperity and international collaboration foster one another and make peace more likely...”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Stalin’s Toast at Yalta: 01:46
• Introduction & Setting the Scene: 02:19–04:49
• Battle of the Bulge and Collapse of Germany: 04:49–07:15
• Pacific Theatre & Japanese Surrender: 07:15–09:35, 30:07–32:25
• Yalta & Roosevelt’s Vision: 10:04–16:26
• Transition to Truman: 18:53–21:39
• Atomic Bomb Decision: 25:39–31:10
• Truman’s Domestic Challenges: 37:29–39:17
• Churchill’s Iron Curtain Speech & Cold War Onset: 39:56–42:12
• Marshall Plan, the Four Freedoms, and U.S. Hegemony: 44:25–54:45
• Reflections on Legacy & Moral Lessons: 54:45–58:10

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Conclusion

Al Murray and James Holland wrap a complex, nuanced, and wide-ranging exploration of the final acts of WWII and the turbulent dawn of a new world order. They emphasize the visionary but imperfect legacies of FDR and Truman, the complexity of American power, and the lessons—still resonant today—of how peace, prosperity, and international engagement were painfully and imperfectly forged from the ashes of war.

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For those seeking a comprehensive, accessible window into how WWII’s end shaped the 20th century, this episode provides deep analysis, vivid anecdotes, and a stirring meditation on leadership and moral vision.

Transcript

[Al Murray]

Thank you for listening to we have ways of making you talk. Sign up to our Patreon to receive bonus content, live streams and our weekly newsletter with money off books and museum visits as well. Plus early access to all live show tickets. That's patreon.com wehaveways.

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[Joseph Stalin]

I want to drink to our alliance that it should not lose its character of intimacy, its free expression of views. In the history of diplomacy, I know of no such close alliance of the three great powers as this. I propose a toast. The firmness of our three power alliance. May it be strong and stable.

[James Holland]

Frost and that was of course, Marshall Stalin. It wasn't Roosevelt. No, it wasn't Truman.

[Al Murray]

It wasn't John Maynard Keynes.

[James Holland]

It wasn't any of the other visionaries.

[Al Murray]

No, no, no. It's. That was Joseph Stalin at the Yalta Conference in February of 1945.

[James Holland]

Yep.

[Al Murray]

Proposing a toast to the Triple alliance. That he was. Well, you know, a lukewarm advocate thereof. But welcome to we have ways of making you talk with me, Al Murray and James Holland. Episode 6 Now Final Episode of our series, the Visionaries. One War Ends, Another Begins is the title of this episode. And with a question mark, what we've been talking about is. Well, our central character in these last five episodes has been fdr, but we started with Truman.

[James Holland]

Yeah, and Truman imminently is about to Enter.

[Al Murray]

Enter. Stage left.

[James Holland]

He is.

[Al Murray]

Because. And I think what's one of the, one of the things about, we talk, we joke about this a lot when we on the podcast is that, you know, whoever's writing this stuff is a two on the nose. The death of Roosevelt in April of 1945 does feel like the writers kind of over egged the pudding a little.

[James Holland]

Does it a little bit?

[Al Murray]

Yeah, it does. Right. Because after all, Hitler, Hitler by that stage of the war sat by an enormous portrait of outer Fritz Frederick the Great.

[James Holland]

Yes.

[Al Murray]

Hoping something comes up.

[James Holland]

Yes.

[Al Murray]

It seems with the death of Roosevelt that something has come up. But as we'll see, what it actually changes is, is, is really not much, which I think which is fascinating about it. So by the late summer 1944, there's Allied hope that the war will all be over by Christmas.

[James Holland]

Yep. And with good reason, I think.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, well, yeah, because, I mean, because they're all looking at the previous war. They're looking at the end of the First World War and the collapse of the, the German front line in, in towards the end of 1918. And they're making better progress than their predecessors did at the end of the First World War. And they're thinking, well it's, it's got to happen any minute now.

[James Holland]

There's been Germany, Germany's collapsing. The cities are in ruins. We've hammered its oil, oil supplies, it's synthetic.

[Al Murray]

There's been an assassination attempt on the, on the Fury himself. So it looks like there's a coup any could happen any second. Yep. I mean what's interesting though is the Germans, because their supply lines are getting shorter, are stabilizing. Klaus Vista elastic. Right. And the Allied supply lines are getting longer.

[James Holland]

Yes.

[Al Murray]

You know, and that's one of the old dynamics of warfare that the further from home you get, the harder it is and the closer to home you get.

[James Holland]

In theory and also fighting modern wars with lots of machinery is not very easy in winter. And as we've said many times before.

[Al Murray]

Oh, here it comes, folks.

[James Holland]

The winters were bad in the 1940s.

[Al Murray]

There you go,

[James Holland]

bring it up. Had to bring it up.

[Al Murray]

We aim to please, we offer to deliver, and we've delivered. The poor winters of the 1940s. Hitler launches one last major counterattack through the Ardennes. The scene of his, the scene of his great triumph in, in May of 1940. He does this in December 1944. He wants to get to Antwerp. He thinks he can rend the coalition aside by splitting the Allied armies apart and then they'll collapse and then he can fight the Soviets. But it's just, it's, it's baloney.

[James Holland]

It's just totally mad bonkers. Ness.

[Al Murray]

And we, we filmed a Walking the Ground series about this and actually came to sort of standing in, standing in ice blasted fields in Belgium going, what is the point of any of this?

[James Holland]

Yeah. And we said. And you made the very good point, I thought, that it's always referred to as Hitler's last gamble, but a gamble suggests you got a chance.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

Which he didn't.

[Al Murray]

You didn't have a chance. And he's not even betting on 100 to 1 against it. It can. This can never work. And all it can ever do is fritter his strategic reserve. Yes. It's. It's a wildly stupid thing to do and wasteful. And you, you think of, yeah, you think of the parents of Atlanta killed in, in, you know, at the end of December in 1944, in this offensive. If she wants. If she wants to see the pointlessness of Nazism underlined hard. Here it is.

[James Holland]

Here it is.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. So by the end of January 1945, Germany's over as a missile force. It's done.

[James Holland]

This is really instigated by the collapse of the Reichsman. The Reichsman's a glue, which is the German railway network is the glue that's kept the show on the road because they don't have enough vehicles and they don't have enough oil, but they have got enough coal just about, so they can keep the rightsbank going. But it's been hammered relentlessly by Allied bombers. It just can't, can't function. You know, the Martian Guards are wrecked, the coal supplies are finally running low. There's no point in keeping going. But Hitler doesn't surrender because it's Faznia Reich or Armageddon. And so it's going to be Armageddon. And they're not quite at Armageddon yet. They almost are. And this is absolutely infuriating for the Allies who still got to fight the Japanese in the Pacific. You know, this is just, this is just completely pointless. It's achieving nothing apart from causing more destruction and mayhem and more lives. And they are getting very angry about this, which is how you can start to understand the kind of, the viciousness of which the bombing campaign continues. I think it's like, oh, for just goodness sake, just stop.

[Al Murray]

In Burma, The Anglo Indian 14th army is winning against the Japanese with small losses, but the Japanese army is having the tar kicked out of it. Yeah, I'm completely, relentlessly but, but, but, but, but this characterizes all the fighting against the Japanese. You have to link Winkle that last man out of that last. Of that last slit trench out of that last bunker, because the Japanese will not surrender. They will not give their lives cheap.

[James Holland]

No, they won't. And that's been. Been absolutely clear from, you know, island battles such as peleliu, September to November 1944, and with the invasion of Luzon, one of the larger of the Philippine islands and where Manila is based, the capital of the Philippines, this turns into a brutal, awful bloodletting. And then, of course, you got Iwo Jima in February and then you've got Okinawa in, in, in April. So really, really tough time. And it's absolutely clear that the closer they get to the Japanese home islands, the more the Japanese fight, as you say.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. And the Japanese are also now locked into a spiral where they think if they can exact as much pain as they can from the Americans, the Americans will throw in the more of a bargaining point. Exactly. They've got more to bargain with you. Exactly. And the unconditional surrender will become conditional. This is what's in the back of everyone's minds in Western Europe, which is why in the end, that the Western Allies don't pursue the Germans to Berlin, decide against it. Eisenhower halts on the river elba, which is 50 miles west of Berlin, and you can argue, given the way the Germans are surrendering to the Western Allies

[James Holland]

at this stage, they'd have walked into Berlin.

[Al Murray]

They'd have walked into Berlin.

[James Holland]

They would have done.

[Al Murray]

But he's not prepared to take the risk.

[James Holland]

Well, because he thinks he's going to need them for the invasion of Japan.

[Al Murray]

Exactly.

[James Holland]

And what's the point of taking the risk when you've got the Red army quite happy to do that? And at this point, the real politics, as far as they're concerned, Nazi Germany's been beaten. They don't really care where that Iron Curtain descends that's going to come. And it's not even certain that that is going to come, by the way.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

So Eisenhower insists and he, he overrules political.

[Al Murray]

Makes the decision entirely by himself.

[James Holland]

By himself. It's my point. He doesn't, he doesn't take in the political considerations of the British or any, or the French or anything like that. He just goes, no, this is what's going to be. And that very same day, 12th April 1945, is the day that that Roosevelt dies.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

He has a massive cerebral hemorrhage. He'd been very Ill for a long time, sort of arteries clogging up and all the rest of it. And although he was only 63 or something, he looked a hell of a lot older. He looked sort of man in his mid-70s at the very youngest.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And he's down in the little White House down in Georgia recovering from that huge trip he does to Yalta and then to Saudi Arabia and. Yeah. And he dies so suddenly. You know, Vice President is, has got to take over.

[Al Murray]

I mean, this is an extraordinary moment because the Yalta conference has, which is where we had Stalin presenting his toast. Strangely emollient toast is the second of the, it's the second of the big, big three conferences. And also, also in the mix is the fact that FDR has stood for office again and won. Stalin for this conference won't leave the Soviet Union is supposedly fear, afraid of flying. But it's also a power move. He's, he's dick waving, he's saying, no, you come to me. Yeah, I'm not coming to you, you come to me. It's as simple as that. So fdr, despite him being in poor health and Churchill, didn't emerge unscathed from the previous big three conferences. He was very sick after that.

[James Holland]

Yeah, he got pneumonia in December 1943.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, exactly. Nearly did for him. So FDR flies all the way there in very bad health. Yourtra has been smashed up because the Germans have only been evicted eight months previously.

[James Holland]

Yes. All the accommodation for the big, you know, for the, for the big guys are.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

Roosevelt and Church and stuff is all a bit called down a heel. Yeah, put it mildly.

[Al Murray]

And, and this is when Roosevelt is very much hoping that there will be post war cooperation between the United States and the Soviet Union, despite the fact that they're, you know, of different political persuasions. And he thinks that what, what could happen is a, a big commercial agreement once the war's over, where the Americans are going to offer credit and export equipment desperately needed by the service because the Soviet Union has been, has been smashed up not just by the Nazis, by the Germans, but by the Soviet Union. Yes. In a scorched earth, it's scorched approach to the war. And there are massive mineral reserves in the Soviet Union too, because, because they're blessed with great mineral resources, the Soviets. And Lend Lease is still going at this point. So Roosevelt thinks, well, there's a deal, there's a, there's a deal to be done. Incredibly, Stalin asks for a $6 billion loan.

[James Holland]

Yep.

[Al Murray]

You know, we were laughing about how he's paranoid about everything except things he ought to be paranoid about. His cynicism is sort of visible from space, isn't it? This is one of the interesting things that FDR doesn't have the measure of Stalin really, does he?

[James Holland]

No, I think it's Roosevelt's great failing that he underestimates Stalin and doesn't really get his measure and doesn't really understand how it works and what Soviet ambition is. You know, he's guilty of not looking at the situation through the prism of the Soviets viewpoint.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. I mean, do you think it's forgivable that he, that he gets this wrong?

[James Holland]

Yeah, of course it's forgivable because he's such a great man. But I think it's failing, you know. Yeah, that's the one bit he gets wrong.

[Al Murray]

But also what he wants to do is end the war. I mean, so much, so much of how you can characterize Roosevelt's decision making. He wants the war to end as quickly as possible. And that means offering the Soviets a big, a big loan. If that means offering them credit, that you do it right. Because you want it over with.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

And I mean what's amazing is Harry Dexter White, who's probably a Soviet spy, I think.

[James Holland]

Yeah, definitely.

[Al Murray]

He says that Morgan tower should offer $10 million. $10 billion to be repaid over 35 years at 2% interest, which is favorable terms between superpowers.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

And this deal is still being thrashed out when the Yalta conference is going on. Roosevelt thinks that Stalin is going to be less aggressive than and less dangerous than Hitler. And he also thinks that money basically is going to talk, that cash is going to talk. I mean, if there's one quality Hitler lacks, he's not good at rail politic. Stalin is brilliant at rail politic. Stalin is an ideologue. Stalin is a revolutionary in the way that Hitler's an ideologue and a revolutionary, but he's a realpolitik guy. He's about achieving what he can for his own interests. Whereas Hitler's about conquering the world and making everyone go to Wagner.

[James Holland]

Yes.

[Al Murray]

Or whatever, you know, and.

[James Holland]

Yes.

[Al Murray]

And getting rid of Jews and giant buildings. Yes. And other things. Whereas Stalin is about power.

[James Holland]

Stalin just more than anything else, he wants his own sphere of influence and he wants a massive giant buffer so that nothing like Brest Litovs can ever happen again. And that's his DNA, don't forget, you know, that's why he's growing up as a revolutionary in, you know, the noughties of the 20th century.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah. When he comes to power, that's, that's the scenario that he wants, you know, he wants to avoid. Yeah, yeah. There are agreements at Yalta and the, and these really are, I mean I was a teenager in the 1980s. Cold War is the sort of thing I grew up knowing about. And this is, this is, that was my status quo. And this is where this is formed. So the key points at Yalta are that Germany will be divided into four occupation zones, the Soviet zone, so the comes East Germany, British zone, American zone, French zone, and that Nazi leaders will be tried for war crimes. Poland will regain independence, but with very, very different borders.

[James Holland]

Yes, it's going to, it's going to move west.

[Al Murray]

It's going to move west. The idea is that this, this further extends the Soviets western border essentially and the western borders will go up to the river rivers Oder and Nisa. And Stalin says he'll allow free elections in Poland. But.

[James Holland]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever.

[Al Murray]

You know, this is a controversial point. I mean Lawrence Reese has written, has written about this, about, about, you know, Britain's quite an angry book about Britain's failure, Britain's failure, Churchill's bargain in this. But what on earth could they do? Could a British government do nothing? There's a new Security Council which exists to this day involving the Soviet Union, America, Britain, China, China and later France and this. And it's going to be called the United Nations.

[James Holland]

Wow.

[Al Murray]

With a General assembly of all member states. Imagine such a thing. So it's sort of League of Nations too, but with a, with a, with a, with.

[James Holland]

Well, it's entirely based on the, on the principles of the Atlantic Charter as well that we talked about in the last episode.

[Al Murray]

This is a world order that involves the Soviets because after all, the Soviet government spent the 20s not being recognized by anybody and not taken seriously and being, basically being, having stuff run against it. So the fact that they're now in this.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

Is, is incredibly important. Poor old FDR, who's exhausted, played out, returns to, returns to the US and

[James Holland]

delivers on March 1st. Yeah. Having, having stopped off in Egypt, the Red Sea to, to talk to the King of the Saudis.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[James Holland]

And, and he, in the past, he's always hidden. Everyone knows that he is paralyzed from the waist down from polio, which he suffers in 1921 and which leaves him permanently disabled. But he always manages to stand up for public addresses in his calipers. It's all very painful, but he does it. But he's so exhausted that he can't. And so on 1st of March, he speaks at Congress and he sits and he says, I hope you will pardon me for this unusual posture of sitting down, but I know that you will realize it makes it a lot easier for me not to have to carry about 10 pounds of steel around on the bottom of my legs. And also because of the fact I have just completed a 14,000mile round trip. I mean, there you have it. I mean, what on earth were the Americans are doing allowing him to do this trip in the first place? But incidentally, the, the trip to Saudi with the King of Saud was, is what opens up the.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

The oil relationships.

[Al Murray]

No, no. Why not? He's taking care of, taking care of an energy policy even then.

[Joseph Stalin]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And, and he explains that he needs congressional support for the decisions made at Yalta and then also gives a warning. So he's changed his tune now by the 1st of March 1945, he says, 25 years ago, American fighting men looked to the statesmen of the world to finish the work of peace for which they fought and suffered. We cannot fail them again and expect the world to survive again. And after this speech gets a standing ovation, FDR leaves for the, for the little White House clap aboard home in Warm Springs in Georgia to recover. And he then dies on the afternoon of the 12th of April. Yeah. And as FDR's Vice President, Harry S. Truman takes over. He's former senator From Missouri, he's 60 years old, he's Christian, he's in full, full health and, and full of vim and vigor, but had only reluctantly accepted the position of vice president at FDR's urging the previous summer. He's got a reputation for good judgment, for sound convictions, and someone who avoids infighting and factions. And crucially, he's acceptable to Northern Democrats because he doesn't allow with the Southern segregationists, but he's also acceptable to the Southern segregationist because he has no real civil rights record and comes from a segregationist state, which is Missouri.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

Truman is summoned to the White House at 5:30pm that day. He goes through the back entrance, goes into the hall, goes up and sees Eleanor Roosevelt and she tells him what's happened. And Truman is stunned into silence for a while. And then he says, turns her and says, is there anything I can do for you? And Eleanor responds, is there anything we can do for you? For you are the one in trouble now. I mean, what a.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

He's sworn in just after 7 o' clock that evening as president and he's only seen FDR twice since his inauguration in January and hardly known him at all. He's also completely in the dark about most foreign policy matters. He doesn't know anything to do with the Manhattan Project, which is the atomic bomb, for example. He has no idea what's going on the Eastern front. He has no idea about the declining relations with the Soviet Union.

[Al Murray]

It is amazing. He doesn't know about the Manhattan Project, but that's because they've hidden it in the army engineering budget, because he runs the Truman Commission, which is looking into procurement and procurement spending and making sure the money's being spent properly. And even he's oblivious to it. It is interesting, though, because what he doesn't do, really, is he doesn't change the team around him. He hangs onto Roosevelt's team. He realizes that basically things have been unraveling since Yalta. Yeah.

[James Holland]

And I think it's just worth just adding that when he takes over, vast majority of people think that this is a Midwester hick, kind of, you know, backward boy. He's going to be completely out of touch, completely out of his depth. He's going to be absolutely useless. The expectations are very, very low indeed.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And he stands up. The funeral for Roosevelt is on the Friday. He stands up on, I think it's Monday 16th April. He gives this address to. To Congress, and it is an absolute masterpiece. Yeah, it's a speech he's largely written himself. It's incredibly stirring stuff. It's incredibly humble, dignified, but determined as well. There's definitely a kind of sort of. You know, there is a spine of steel that emerges here. He gets a standing ovation and everyone goes, God, this guy. Actually, I think he might be all right. You know, he's got the right stuff. And boy, does he ever.

[Al Murray]

And it's interesting, he says, today, America's become one of the most powerful forces for good on earth. We must keep it so. We must now learn to live with other nations for our mutual good. We must learn to trade more with other nations. And so that there may be, for our mutual advantage, increased production, increased employment, and better standards of living throughout the world to our mutual advantage. I mean, it's more explicit than Roosevelt's rhetoric, isn't it? He's saying we all stand to benefit from this. He's saying it openly.

[James Holland]

Yes.

[Al Murray]

And obviously, if you become vice president, there's always this possibility, isn't there? And Mr. Vance, if you're watching or listening, there's always this possibility, but this

[James Holland]

is the Particularly when you're. You're vice president to an old, aging and infirm president.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, exactly. So if you are listening as well as just like everything that's in your inbox, you've got to present it politically, which is what he's doing to Congress, that he's got to be up to speed. I mean, I find it. I find it completely boggling.

[James Holland]

He's absolutely amazing.

[Al Murray]

Is there not a better way of doing this?

[James Holland]

He's one of the most underestimated man.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Holland]

Ever to take that. That office. I mean, he is just extraordinary how he grips it so quickly. And of course, you know that speech on 16 April is the same day that the Soviet Red army launches it assault on Berlin.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

That costs so many men's lives.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah. Funny. Exactly what I was going to say to the words right in my mouth. 361,000 casualties, whatever it is. And the Allies. The Allies are now into southern Germany. They're into Austria. The Red army surrounds Berlin. And then two giant fists power into the center of the city and meet up competing. Competing marshals doing that. Hitler then on the 30th of April shoots himself in his.

[James Holland]

Yes, he does. No, he doesn't go to South America.

[Al Murray]

Exactly. He fires the starting pistol for the end of the war.

[James Holland]

Italy first on the 2nd of May.

[Al Murray]

Exactly.

[James Holland]

Then Berlin. German forces in northern Germany, Bavaria, Austria, total surrender to Eisenhower's headquarters in Reims on 7 May.

[Al Murray]

If only someone had written a book about that last year. I mean, it was.

[James Holland]

If only. And now out of paper.

[Al Murray]

But what's really amazing there about this is a victory in Europe. Day 8th May, 1945 is Truman's 61st birthday. I mean, the stuff coming at him.

[James Holland]

Hollywood.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

[James Holland]

I mean, what are they doing, these script writers?

[Al Murray]

I know. And his victory address, though it's not celebratory.

[James Holland]

Well, I was up to. So my start point for this whole project and start point for that, for the bit that we wrote in Victory 45 was the televised address he did of this speech.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And how downbeat it is.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. They've got another couple of years to go with the Japanese and.

[James Holland]

And at the price.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

I think you've now come true.

[Al Murray]

He says our rejoicing is sobered and subdued by a supreme consciousness of the terrible price we have paid to rid the world of Hitler and his evil hand. We must work to finish the war. Our victory is only half over when the last Japanese division is surrendered unconditionally, only then will Our fighting job be done. Join us after the break to see how the fighting job is done and

[James Holland]

the unique experience of listening to us talking beyond 1945.

[Al Murray]

I know.

[James Holland]

Steady on.

[Al Murray]

We'll see you in a tick.

[James Holland]

I get so many headaches every month.

[Al Murray]

It could be chronic migraine, 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting four hours or more.

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[Al Murray]

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[Al Murray]

Welcome back to way of ways of making you talk for our final part of our final part of the final part. In a way we could, we could stop the podcast now. Can we got to the end of the war?

[James Holland]

Well, we haven't got the war with your man.

[Al Murray]

Oh, yeah, of course not. Anyway, okay, carry on.

[James Holland]

Henry Stimson. Henry. Henry Stinson. So. So the other thing that he does is he keeps basically the same administration, he keeps the same figures. You know, by British standards, the American, the Rooseveltian wartime administration is a nationalist government. It's a bipartisan government with Republicans and Democrats serving in the cabinet. And one of those is Henry Stimson, who's a legendary figure. He's a Republican, he's a grand old man. He's Secretary of State for War. He visits Truman on 25 April and tells him something that Truman has been kept entirely in the dark from. Of course. And this is the Manhattan Project. And he says within four months we shall in all probability have completed the most terrible weapon ever known in human history. One bomb of which could destroy a whole city. This, of course, is the atomic bomb. Yeah, 200,000 people involved in the bomb's development, but only a handful of Course, actually know what it is because they're kind of bit players who've just said, can you just produce X, Y and Z this bit of glass or this bit of nickel or whatever it is. Anyway, to use the bomb to end the war and cause unprecedented levels of damage and suffering to Japanese civilians or deal with protracted battle against Japan for up to 18 months more with untold Allied casualties. That is the question. That is the nub of it. And Japan isn't backing down at this very point.

[Al Murray]

The battle of Okinawa is still going on, still another 600 miles to mainland Japan, as it were. And the Japanese are treating that as a home island battle, basically. And hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people are killed in that encounter. And also their chances are, though, of course, they don't know this, it's only a matter of time before the Soviets develop their own bomb, because the Soviets are going to develop their own bomb, largely because, as you said, 200,000 people are working on the atomic bomb. Only a handful of them know who. Only a handful of them, yeah.

[James Holland]

One of them knows it is Stalin.

[Al Murray]

Well, Carl Fuchs, right. Who is working on the bomb is a traitor and John Carecross and John Kencross. So they. They know. They know. They know. You know. On the 16th of July in New Mexico is the Trinity test, which proves the bomb works. And the next, the following day is the Potsdam Conference.

[Joseph Stalin]

Yep.

[Al Murray]

On the western edge of Berlin, which is the big three, the new big. The new, all new, reconfigured big Three.

[James Holland]

Yeah. But not yet because. Because Churchill's still in.

[Al Murray]

Well, yeah, exactly. Well, yeah, we. Well, we've won. We've got one change and there's another coming. So it's their first gathering since Yalta and since the death of Hitler. Truman is told that the bomb works as soon as it's known and says to Stalin, doesn't. He goes, well, we've got something up our sleeve, basically. And obviously Stalin goes, yeah, yeah, whatever. Yeah, whatever, but knows what he. But knows what it is. Of course. On the 26th of July, you have the Potsdam Declaration announced. And funnily enough, you were talking about. Watch when you were looking at the footage of victory, of truman for victory 45. The Potsdam Declaration is. That is. Is like such an electric document to read. I was really struck by the language in it.

[James Holland]

It's pretty emphatic.

[Al Murray]

It's emphatic. And what's interesting about it, compared to. Compared to simply saying unconditional surrender, it's a. The Potsdam Declaration is full of escalation. Roosevelt first pitches. It is not accompanied by the language of prompt and utter destruction. No. It's just unconditional surrender in the pot. The Potsdam Declaration is like, you're going to be annihilated. You're going to be annihilated. We're going to bring more criminals to justice. So it's an unconditional surrender and here are the conditions attached. The Japanese don't respond. No comment.

[James Holland]

No.

[Al Murray]

Truman authorises the use of the atomic bomb. Yeah.

[James Holland]

And after it happens, he's asked, isn't it so, you know, how big was responsibility and how bad did you feel about doing it? And he says, said in all consciousness, I couldn't have looked into the eyes of any mother who then gave their life of an ally, you know, American serviceman who gave their life in the invasion of Japan. Had. I had that bomb and not used it.

[Al Murray]

Yep. Yeah. Yeah.

[James Holland]

That's how you justify it.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. And. And, you know, and I think it's

[James Holland]

worth saying that Truman is a profound Christian. Yeah. His religion is very important. His moral compass is very, very clear in his own mind. And one of the reasons why he's so nervous about becoming president is because he doesn't want this burden of responsibility on his shoulder. The point is, is he does it.

[Al Murray]

So on the 6th of August, the bomb is dropped on. On Hiroshima. It's the. It's a uranium bomb, the first ever use of uranium bombs. It's a test in itself. Yes. Because the Trinity test is a plutonium weapon. The most amazing number is that only 1.3% of the uranium in the bomb is actually successfully fissioned during the detonation. But that's enough to kill 70 to 80,000 Japanese people instantly. It's the ultimate expression of steel, not flesh.

[James Holland]

Yeah. And the bomb doesn't actually land.

[Al Murray]

No.

[James Holland]

It explodes.

[Al Murray]

It's an airburst. Yeah. You have it burst in the air to maximize the blast. The Japanese respond to this by doubting it. By doubting it, not believing it's really an atomic weapon. Doing everything they can.

[James Holland]

Well, they probably do secretly, but publicly.

[Al Murray]

They. Well, probably they. Some of them do, some of them don't. We'll never know. We'll never know. And on the. On the 9th of August, because. Because the Japanese government have not surrendered, basically.

[James Holland]

They go again.

[Al Murray]

They go again. The Americans go again, this time on Nagasaki and 40, 000 people are killed instantly with all the radiation.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

Poisoning to come.

[James Holland]

Yep. And then on the 15th of August, they finally surrender the unconditionally with the single condition that's amazing.

[Al Murray]

And then that's that the Emperor Hirohito is allowed to stay on the throne.

[James Holland]

And so he does till 1989.

[Al Murray]

Exactly. Yeah. But, but that, but the thing is, that day there was an attempted palace coup by officers in the, in the Japanese army. The, the army minister, we don't really know which way actually he was going to jump had that coup been successful. Anami. So there's, there's, there's a whole load of. Yeah, obviously there's a whole load of other stuff swirling around that. But the Allies accept these terms from the Japanese. But it's American troops, not Allied troops. I think there's something really amazing about when MacArthur goes to Japan after the surrender and he's one of the most recognizable soldiers in the whole world. A single assassin in Japan could have killed, taken him out, and then you've got a completely different story. But Japan, the way Japan operates is it accepts its defeat because the Emperor has stayed in place. And he said so.

[James Holland]

There's a picture of MacArthur standing next to Hirohito. He's pint size.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

Looking very small physically and metaphorically.

[Al Murray]

It's quite extraordinary.

[James Holland]

It is, isn't it?

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And the war's over.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

85 million people killed.

[Al Murray]

least.

[James Holland]

Many more, Many millions more displaced. 6 million Jews killed by the Nazis plus a quarter, quarter of all Poles by the Nazis and the Soviets. Villages, towns, cities across Asia and in Europe in total ruins.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

Britain, of course, is part of the, part of the Victory team, but is finished as a world power, completely bankrupt. America is the only country to come out of the war richer than before. The only country in the entire planet.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

You know, FDR has pulled the US out of the depression. He's transformed it into the world's leading manufacturing nation. Manufacturing output of the US dwarfs Britain and the USSR together.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. Yeah.

[James Holland]

And Truman is completely committed to, to moving forward with FDR's post war vision. And the only difference is that now he's going to have to navigate this without the Soviet Union.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

We're getting here towards the Truman Doctrine, which is the kind of sort of the grand finale really of this epic story of visionaries. And so on 13 April, back on 13 April, the day after he becomes president, he's handed a foreign policy report by Edward Stettinius. He's the great steel magnate, part of the administration. And Stertinius says Russia will emerge from the present conflict as by far the strongest nation in Europe and Asia. Strong enough if the United States should Stand aside to dominate Europe and at the same time to establish hegenomy over Asia. Russia's natural resources and manpower are so great that within relatively few years she can be much more powerful than either Germany or Japan has ever been. In other words, watch out, watch out. And on the 21st of April, so just kind of, you know, a week later, Truman is briefed by the US Ambassador to the Soviet Union, who is W. Avril Harriman, very good looking, hugely successful, multimillionaire businessman and smooth talker who has been the ambassador in the Soviet Union since 1941 or whatever. And he also says Stalin wants to dominate as much of Europe as possible, including Poland. You know, the warning here is, is that this means totalitarianism, it means autocracy, it means oppression of the masses by the few and all the rest of it. And you know, Soviets have already proved this when they absorbed Bessarabia in August 1940. Economic Planning Committee announced a nationalization of all banks, credit institutions, railways, waterborne transit facilities. You know, and it's clearly a taste of what' what's to come. Yeah. The Soviet high command, the Stavka, had even drawn up plans for the invasions of France, Italy and the Baltic Straits between Denmark and Norway in 1944. And Stalin has said to Harriman, it's a shame we have not had a chance to get our troops all the way to Paris. You know, so the intentions there.

[Al Murray]

Well, maybe if they'd been better at fighting and more efficient fighting, they'd have got to Paris.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

I mean, so in a way the Soviet carelessness that we talked about in a previous episode is in its own way a. Yes, a good thing.

[James Holland]

But, but of course this is that this kind of, these kind of intentions, this kind of chat, comments like that about Paris that threatens the, the, the, the basis of the United nations, the ideals of the United nations which is now in place. You know, it's been, yeah, it's been, been mooted by Roosevelt and you know, is in the process of being properly created.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And you know, suddenly there's a mass abounding after the war has finished.

[Al Murray]

Well, yeah, because, because Europe's in ruins and, and even, and do the do, do the countries, people they people think they're from even exist anymore?

[James Holland]

Yes. And it's very, very difficult to create a permanent peace.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

As we discovered, you know, a generation earlier.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Holland]

You know, all the lessons of Versailles warnings from main arcanes about, you know, the, the working classes of, of nations sort of putting up with only so much and all the rest of it, you know, how much are people going to stand if they get the piece wrong? The piece has to be right. And yet a massive spanner in the works of this getting the piece right. Is the Soviet Union and its intentions. What exactly are its intentions? What does it want to do? Is it just a buffer zone to protect the Soviet Union or is it something much more sinister and expanding than that?

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And none of this is known because you can never understand quite what the. Because you can't trust a word that Stalin says.

[Al Murray]

And the situation's fluid. And of course, I mean even the fact that Poland's borders have been withdrawn redrawn means that there are, there are Germans displaced from what's now become Poland. You know, there is no status quo ante in Europe. It's being completely rewritten.

[James Holland]

But it's not as if you haven't got domestic problems in the usa.

[Al Murray]

Exactly. Exactly. Well, yeah, exactly, because they're working on

[James Holland]

the assumption that war is going to go into 1946. So lots of conflicts. Contracts have been issued.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

Which now aren't going to be honored. So then what happens?

[Al Murray]

Well, and lots of servicemen are coming

[James Holland]

up and there's a huge, there's a huge threat of recession in the United States.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah. And so Truman, in order to, in order to head this off, he proposes a 21 point domestic program to Congress in early September which is unemployment compensation, an increased minimum wage, tax reform, crop insurance for farmers.

[James Holland]

This is all big stuff.

[Al Murray]

This is, this is all big federal, big state, big stuff, big government.

[James Holland]

Yeah. Traditionally, it should also say the Republican view. And, and traditionally up until the arrival, the advent of FDR in 1933, it has been low federal, Federal input. High individual input.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

You left your own, the pioneering spirit

[Al Murray]

single swim Federal, federal control over business for an additional year and federal aid to build a 1 million new homes a year. Which is, which is your king housing cyclical economics here.

[James Holland]

Yes.

[Al Murray]

It is putting money in through the government to keep things.

[James Holland]

And by the way, it works.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. And conservatives from both parties oppose the measures. It's just too much in one go. What you've got though is you said you've got armaments contracts that have, that have been canceled. So Boeing lay off 21,000 people. They've not got any more B17s to build. Ford lays off 50,000 people and there are then as a consequent wave of strikes in virtually every industry. 175,000 workers at General Motors. I mean, jeepers, they walk out for nearly three months 800,000 steel workers go on strike in January 1946, which is the biggest labor strike in history at the time. That's unbelievable, isn't it? And In February of 1946, Stalin announces that communism and capitalism are incompatible.

[James Holland]

So that is the end of the FDR dream.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. And that the Soviet Union is going to carry on on a war footing. And it's his most aggressive statement against the west yet. And then you have Churchill with his incredibly famous speech at Fulton, Missouri.

[James Holland]

And this is significant because this is where Truman's from. He's not from. From Fulton, but he's from Missouri. This has all been cleared beforehand. The speech has been written out. You know, they've. They've had eyes on the speech beforehand.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And he comes over and this is what he says.

[Al Murray]

Well, I mean, Churchill effectively is working as an outrider for Truman here, isn't he?

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

Because he's not in government anymore. Lost the election in the summer of 45. And so he. He can do this.

[Joseph Stalin]

He can say, from Stettin to the Baltic to Trieste in the Adriatic, an iron curtain has descended across the continent. If we adhere fully to the charter of the United nations and walk forward in sedate and sober strength, seeking no one's land or treasure, seeking to lay no arbitrary control upon the thoughts of men, the high roads of the future will be clear not only for us, but for all. Not only for our time, but for a century to come.

[Al Murray]

The fact that Truman is plugged, Churchill is working as an outrider for Truman here. He's saying the thing that Truman needs in the public. Needs in the public sphere that Truman can't say himself yet. Yes, Churchill serving that. Serving that purpose.

[James Holland]

But this is what he's saying is he's saying exactly the same things as that inauguration address that Roosevelt makes on the 6th of January, 1941, saying, this is what our role should be in the West. You know, we should do this. We should be the bigger people, all the rest of it. The difference is that now the counterpoint of that is the threat not from Nazi Germany is from the Soviet Union. And everyone's exhausted and everyone's going. Everyone's turning inward again.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. But what's interesting about this, though, what I was going to say is that, is that this is presented, often presented in the narrative as Churchill doing this. Churchill says this thing about an iron curtain, and it's a phrase he's coined and all this sort of thing, whereas in actual fact, he's completely plugged into what Truman wants and Needs at this point. It's, it's a, it's a coordinated effort. It's not.

[James Holland]

Yes.

[Al Murray]

Churchill moving the dial on things.

[James Holland]

No, no, no, no, not at all.

[Al Murray]

Co craze and changing things.

[James Holland]

No, it isn't. But the reason it becomes controversial is because they feel they've done the hard yards, they've done all this stuff and now they're coming, come back and they're now thinking about their own needs and requirements and the strikes going on and the threat of recession, threat of unemployment. And also they've just sent all this money and cash and arms and trucks and aid to the Soviet Union. And now they're saying this was a malevolent regime.

[Al Murray]

We're gonna have to do it all over. And we're gonna have to do it

[James Holland]

all over again potentially if we're not careful. I think it's really important that although they might be communist, you know, Stalin is just another in a long line of autocratic dictators.

[Al Murray]

In Russia, an external enemy is a unifying principle. And then the midterms come, as they always do in American politics, and Truman and the Democrats get an absolute shoeing

[James Holland]

in the midterms, as they quite often do.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. Weirdly, he seems to sort of be steeled by this and doubles down on this idea of a mission for global peace and prosperity. He makes his State of the Union address in January 1947. He offers an intimation of what's going to be the Truman Doctrine, which is the democracy, civil liberties and human freedoms are as important to national security as the armed forces are. These ideas of collective security of all man, this idea of all mankind. Our goal is for the collective security of all mankind. The spirit of the American people can set the course of world history. If we share our great bounty with a war stricken people over the world, then the faith of our citizens in freedom and democracy will be spread over the whole earth. Yes, this is leading directly to the Marshall Plan, I think. And I know. Yes, I know, I know. We're talking about events in 947. We're just gonna have to weather it, everybody.

[James Holland]

Yes, just suck it up for a last bit. But it takes us back to where we were at the start of the entire series. We started with that speech from March 1947 where Truman is urging Congress to agree to a bailout package for Greece and Turkey.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. You know what's interesting about this is George Marshall, who was FDR's man, right hand man, in rebooting the American military or booting up a new version of the American military, I think is a fair.

[James Holland]

Well, it has been Jimmy Burns who's been a secretary and he doesn't get on terribly well with Jimmy.

[Al Murray]

Well, that's what's interesting is that George Marshall comes back into the fold and there's an interesting moment.

[James Holland]

Yes. Because he's, he's been chief of staff for those who aren't aware of who he is, he's been, he's been the most senior military figure in the United States during the Second World War. He's, he's a chief of staff. So you know, he is the top general. Yeah. And has done a fantastic job and he's only gets, he gets appointed on the 1st of September, 1939 by Roosevelt.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, that's right.

[James Holland]

All the way through.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. And Truman says the more I see and talk to him, the more certain I am that he's one of the great, one of the age. And what's interesting is that Marshall of course is politically neutral and Truman in a way is reaching back to FDR's people. He's reaching back to FDR's cross party way of delivering this sort of thing.

[James Holland]

But he's a very canny appointment, not just because of Marshall's own attributes but because of his political neutrality.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And he brings in George Kennan who

[James Holland]

we mentioned, who had been working at the embassy in Moscow, who's a Soviet

[Al Murray]

expert now and he's going to run the new policy planning staff within the State Department. By now they know that the, the Soviets are developing the atomic bomb, that they've got guided missiles, they've got biological weapons and submarines because basically the Soviets have pinched a load of German scientists and technologists, as have the Americans. As have the Americans. But you know, but, but the report

[James Holland]

that Kenan oversees also points out the importance of soft power, which American has in abundance through Hollywood, through its modernity, through its, its consumables, all the rest of it, and feels that that soft power is important for a, for visually and culturally, but also that, that they need to financially support democracies who are threatened and endangered by the Soviets and other and other autocracies. Which is why, you know, we get into this situation of bailing out, bailing out Greece and Turkey and that requires incredibly swift action in the US but early in March he's gone to Mexico to show commitment to the good neighbor policy, you know, which goes all the way back to that inauguration speech by Roosevelt back in March 1933. And he's cheered by thousands on the streets and he Visits completely off his own back. He visits a monument in Mexico city which memorializes six teenagers killed in the Mexico American War of 1946-1948. And he places a floral tribute there, a floral wreath. And again no one's asked him to. This is, this is not from his advisors. He's done this off his own back. He's learned his history. And one Mexican paper says 100 years of misunderstanding and bitterness wiped out by one man in one minute. This is the best neighbor policy. And when he's asked why he'd gone to the monument, Truban replies, brave men

[Al Murray]

don't belong to any one country. I respect bravery wherever I see it.

[James Holland]

God, he's good, isn't he? And he then gives that speech on 12th March which becomes known as the Truman Doctrine and where he outlines that vision of America and helping people maintain their own self determination, which we began episode one with. And the press react very positively. So did Congress. They agreed to support Turkey and Greece with financial aid. And Truman signs it into law. And the package is worth $400 million, which is a lot of money in those days.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, a lot of money back then.

[James Holland]

And then Marshall visits Moscow for talks with Stalin in person and, and mosque, you know, and the Soviet leadership.

[Al Murray]

And as Marshall is talking, Stalin sits there smoking and doodling wolves heads with a red pencil. I mean, I mean what the come off it. He brushes aside Marshall's concerns, tells him to be patient. So in other words, to bugger off. Marshall now knows that the US will have to act unilaterally because what actually the Soviets want it seems is if Europe's chaotic and impoverished then he can further extend Soviet influence into, into different, different European countries. And you know, even Italy's feeble and febrile at this point, isn't it? There's strong communist movement in Italy. There's communist elements in France.

[James Holland]

Yes. People are worried about. Yes, yes.

[Al Murray]

You know, what's even going to happen in, in the, in the British, French and American sector of Germany itself.

[James Holland]

And there's other concerns around the world which is why they eventually get embroiled in the Korean War.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[James Holland]

Because of their worries about the spread

[Al Murray]

of communism, what's going to happen in China and so that the Soviets are invited to attend a conference and they do, they do show up, but then they walk out. Conference organized in Paris to discuss what's officially called the European Recovery Program but will be known as the Marshall Plan. But Congress then agreed to $17 billion. This package is passed into law on the 3rd of April 1948. And we've talked throughout this series about moments, you know, the establishment to lend lease, moments that change the world. Moments that are absolutely decisive and consequential, basically in expressions of American power.

[James Holland]

17 billion in 1947 is a, a

[Al Murray]

huge, vast amount of money. And this is, but this is, this is one of the most important moments in 20th century history, without a doubt in all the history of the world. We're the first great nation to feed and support the conquered. Our neighbors are not afraid of us.

[James Holland]

Yes. And he's absolutely right. And this is again, I cannot stress enough just how completely radical this is. The idea that the victors are bailing out the vanquished.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. Sixteen European countries are helped.

[James Holland]

Yep.

[Al Murray]

But what it doesn't just do is bail those countries out. It basically pumps up everyone's tires. It's the, it's the rising tide that raises all ships, isn't it? And that's why you get. NATO being created in April 1949 is very much the logical extension of the

[James Holland]

Marshall Plan, which also comes on Truman's

[Al Murray]

watch, by the way. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. American dominance of NATO is about making sure that everyone's safe, but also chiming along the way the Americans want them to.

[James Holland]

Yes, of course, it is amazing that after this catastrophe, after this series of catastrophe, decades of financial disaster and calamity and destruction and loss of life and all the rest of it. 1948 to 1942 is the period of fastest growth ever in European history. And industrial productivity grows by 40%. Food production surpasses pre war levels, thanks to the rapid increase in mechanization and new tech, much of which has been developed during the war. Of course, the rubble is cleared. Poverty and starvation start to ease. And the Marshall Plan also has massive financial benefits for the U.S. make no mistake. Because as Europe recovers, more markets emerge and that is good news for American manufacturers. So in the US GDP is 200 billion in 1940, it's 300 billion in 1950, it is 488 billion in 1960.

[Al Murray]

Part of the whole point of NATO is you're protecting that market and it is about being the dominant partner.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

You know, this is the thing, I think that has maybe been lost along the way by certain parties lately.

[James Holland]

Well, very possibly. But it's interesting because I think just to go back to the four freedoms that Roosevelt announces in that State of the Nation address in, in January 1941, they are part of the kind of the mythology of the post war America. This Benign superpower, which it's not interested in imperialism. And they're also, the Four Freedoms have also been immortalized by Norman Rockwell. And for those who don't know Norman Rockwell, he's this amazing artist. He was a sort of almost a cartoonist, but also known for his kind of photographic realism. And he would do all these front covers on the picture post. That's where he made his name. But he wanted to help in the war effort and so offered to illustrate the Four Freedoms. And they're amazing pictures. I mean you might, you know, Norman Rottwell's not everyone's bag, but they are amazing pictures and they absolutely represent not the cutting edge of America, but the kind of the folksy American dream of security, of consumer wealth where everyone's got enough to eat. One of them is freedom from want. It's a family around the Thanksgiving Day table with the huge turkey, plump breasted turkey coming on and all the rest of it. It's such a kind of contrast to the bleakness and repression of the societies behind the iron curtain of their kind of, you know, monochrome tower blocks and Stasi and KGB and you know, and all the rest of it. There is this sort of mainstream consciousness, I think that the Soviet, Soviet communism is, is repressive and, and brow beating as Nazism and fascism. I'm very much the new enemy. And of course, you know, this is the period in which, you know, in the 50s and late 40s and 50s that the cold War is underway. You know, you have the Berlin population blockade with the Berlin airlift liberating that in 1948-1949. Then you have the Korean War, you know, and there's other post war settlements that are ratified in 1945 and in 1947 there's a general agreement on tariffs and trade, the GATT, which bans, barriers, stymie international trade, signed by 23 democratic countries. And of course the GATT is renamed the World Trade Organization in 1995, which is in many ways becomes the undoing of the modern United States with that entry of China into, into the WTO in 1999.

[Al Murray]

Economic crisis leads to political upheaval which in turn makes war more likely. Germany's fate at the end of the First World War is that the economic crisis that follows and the political upheaval that follows then catalyzes everything and creates, creates the Second World War of the, of the 20th century, Second World War. If you turn that on its head, economic prosperity and international collaboration, international collaboration through trade. They foster one another and they make peace Peace far more likely make it long serving. Exactly. And they make it much harder to go to war and they nurture democracy. People will argue with that. I mean, this is the thing, is that there are plenty of people who argue that. And also a thing we have talked an awful lot about in this series, it's about American power. This is the story of American hegemony, which obviously to a lot of people is an unpalatable prospect. But this is what happened. This is what happened and this is how it happened. This is how the people who laid out that course of events and policy did it in that time. So even if you're one of those people who, because lots of people do not like American power, do not like American hegemony, and didn't before the current crew came to power, let's be honest about that, you know, in a way, Donald Trump is acting out the thing that people have always said America is like. This is how America responded to the crisis of the middle portion of the, of the 20th century.

[James Holland]

Yeah. And you know, and it's not, it's not that FDR and Truman aren't without flaws. And you know, one has to remember that FDR had a massive role in the internment of 120,000 Japanese Americans, for example, Executive Order 90066 in February 1942. But I think it is also true that both are compelled by a profound sense of duty and dedication to prosperous global democracy. And you know, the hallmarks are obviously capitalism and free trade, low tariffs and good neighborliness and profound sense of Christian morals. You know, we live in a much more secular times these days, but they have a moral backbone. And I would say both of them, you know, for all the Machiavellian ruthlessness of Roosevelt, he still is compelled by that moral backbone. And so too is Truman. And you know, these are fundamentally, profoundly good people, I think. And you know, those lessons need to be learned because, you know, here we are, we've, you know, in the first years of this century we had economic crisis caused by war in Iraq and Afghanistan. Then we had the 2008 financial crisis, again completely self imposed, just as the Wall street crash was in 1929. Since then we've had the pandemic, global trade wars, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, it's not good. And politics is disrupted, the economies are disrupted. You know, that stability, that vision that, that, you know, that, that idea that, that economic prosperity and international collaboration protects and nurtures democracy, that is slightly being tested, not even slightly very much being tested. Right now. We should leave with that, that amazing line that Truman says to the press in October 1947 when he's asked whether he's going to get credit for the Marshall Plan.

[Al Murray]

And he says, I'm not doing this for credit. I'm doing it because it's right. I'm doing it because it's necessary to be done if we are going to survive ourselves. And the story also goes in the Oval Office. He said, we're going to name it after you, George, because they all hate me.

[James Holland]

But the point is he's not, he's not looking for personal glory.

[Al Murray]

No, I love it.

[James Holland]

He's doing it because it's the right thing to do.

[Al Murray]

What I love though, is that these people are complex, nuanced people grappling with stuff no one would ever want to have to deal with. And they come up with complex, nuanced ways of dealing with it. FDR's political skill set, his ability to basically please enough people to get through stuff that's incredibly radical, actually. NATO is 10 years after a completely isolationist America. The way the Soviets have behaved, the way the Nazis behaved before that, and drove events and drove the situation that Roosevelt was trying to manage is one thing. But the fact that these, I mean these people are extraordinarily interesting for this, because at any stage in this Roosevelt could have gone, this is too difficult. I have an isolationist country. We keep saying this on this podcast. Americans went to America to get away from Europe. The lesson of the First World War is that you intervene in Europe, maybe you were tricked into it by perfidious Albion. And anyway, the settlement afterwards has failed and hasn't worked. We'll just walk away. We want nothing more to do with this. And Roosevelt as an American domestic politician would be completely within his boundaries of action to do that. But he, but he doesn't.

[James Holland]

That's because he's a visionary. He sees the bigger picture.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, Wilson was a visionary, but was politically incapable of pulling off his vision

[James Holland]

and he was too self righteous.

[Al Murray]

Well, exactly. But Roosevelt was. Roosevelt was smart enough to know political

[James Holland]

acumen, not to fall down that trap

[Al Murray]

and to offer his vision to a coalition of people rather than just the people that agree necessarily were going to agree with him on the business side, the moral side, the strategic side, the political side, the military side. He was able to answer all of those things politically deliver to. And that, that is really interesting. And then that you should get Truman along after him, who's capable of the same political trick or skills, whatever you want to call it, is absolutely amazing and what makes these people so compelling to think about. Thanks everyone for listening. We hope you've enjoyed this series the Visionaries. If you want to absolutely soak yourselves in this, then go and buy James's book, the Visionaries. You can buy it in Kindle format for on your road. When you're on the road, you can buy yourself a hardback for leaving on the coffee table so that people can consider what a well read person you are. You can get the audio, audiobook if you've got a dog to walk, listen to the audiobook version that I read. And it's so much food for thought in so many different directions. Like so much of the fascinating topic,

[James Holland]

the Second World War. And don't worry, the Second World War is absolutely central to the whole thing.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[James Holland]

So this is, this is all about the Second World War and it's about

[Al Murray]

its wider context over the edges of our normal margin. But there we are. Thanks to everyone that subscribed. In order to get to the end of this as quickly as possible without the adverts. Yes, we've become a Patreon. Subscribe to our officer class Apple Channel. We thank you for listening. The next one will be some shooting, don't worry. And probably some explosions. Don't panic. We'll see you soon. Cheerio.

[James Holland]

Cheerio.