James Holland (2:37)

Yes.

Al Murray (2:38)

We'll just zip through Hitler's taking Germany to the brink.

James Holland (2:42)

Well, yes, because we've touched on it, haven't we've mentioned Kristallnacht, we've mentioned the Munich Agreement, all the rest of it, but we haven't actually. We rather sort of left Hitler hanging as the new chancellor and dismantling democracy, and then we haven't really talked about anything else. So I think it is useful just to remind everyone of what happened in the 1930s in Germany. And a quick romp through the rise of Germany under Hitler, albeit briefly, is probably no bad thing.

Al Murray (3:10)

No. He becomes Fuhrer, sole leader of Germany, and he's sort of gifted that opportunity by the right who think they can control him. They can't. He dismantles democracy, the Enabling act and so on. And he begins to transition to a military economy, in other words, overthrowing the Versailles stipulations. That meant Germany can't have an army, a navy or an air force. And so basically it's the remoulding in peacetime of the economy on the basis of military considerations.

James Holland (3:37)

He's quite upfront about this, by the way.

Al Murray (3:39)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And he said he's going to do it and he does it. It's just, I think he's quite an unusual politician in that regard. He aligns the economy pretty much entirely to the project Realmament. And he's always wanted to go to war. He's always said he has, he's always intimated it. It's quite clear that there's an appetite in parts of Germany for it too. And I think, you know, in the last episode, we said people response to Hitler's rhetoric, you know, is qualified. Maybe they didn't feel the same way about the Jews as he did, but maybe they did. Right. And enough of them feel the same way about war as he does is the fact. So the sort of blend, the cocktail you get from Hitler of policy is one that's generally agreeable to an awful lot of people. And he wants to dominate Europe. It's the idea that Germans are the master race and that will in some way sort of wipe the slate clean from defeat in the First World War in its own, I think, psychologically is what's going on there.

James Holland (4:34)

And do you remember, do you remember in the, in the series on the Road to Japan, Japan's Road to War, we were saying that all these new ultra nationalistic autocratic regimes, they always have their own fair share of nostalgia thrown in as well. Yeah, well, Hitler's tapping into exactly the same thing.

Al Murray (4:51)

Yeah.

James Holland (4:51)

This is this notion of military excellence that no one does it better. And this goes all the way back to kind of, you know, Frederick the Elector, Frederick the Great, you know, the First Reich, all the rest of it, and Bismarck and so on and Prussian militarism. And he's tapping into exactly the same thing, saying if you join our gang and we can be militarily great again, like we've always been, we've always been the best and we are reclaiming our crown, blah, blah, blah. And everyone goes, well, yeah, you know, puffs up their chest a little bit. And of course they have all the fancy uniforms which are based on imperial uniforms of the late 19th century, but with their own twist. And it's a classic. It's a, you know, it's a classic of these kind of people doing this kind of thing. It's exactly the same.

Al Murray (5:33)

Yeah. And if you want one of the major institutions, the most respected institutions in Germany, which is the army on side, this is what you do, this is how you get them to back you. Is no fault in that regard. And there's public projects that are conceived for military purposes. So the construction of the outer barn, which means you can go east or west quickly, which is after all where German armies need to go east or west. There's the Arbeitsdienst, the Reich Labour Service, which gets young men to undertake public works. And that comes with the dollop of Nazi indoctrination. In 1935, conscription is introduced and then Hermann Goering, who's the head of the Luftwaffe and one of Hitler's many number twos.

James Holland (6:11)

President of Prussia.

Al Murray (6:12)

Yeah, Exactly. Institutes the Four Year Plan in 1936 which is basically allows him to control German industry and skew it to rearmament. And they also dig into overturning the Versailles Treaty. So there's a Luftwaffe created, the air force created in 1935. Interestingly, always in German documents it's referred to as the gaf. In British documents, the German Air Force, you know, you always think, what? What's that? Oh, yes, the Luftwaffe. There's the reoccupation of the Rhineland in 1936, which is a bit extremely unpopular move by the French and Belgians to occupy demilitarized Rhineland. And then the Anschluss. The annexation of Austria in 1938, very popular in Austria. Then the Sudetenland and the rest of Czechoslovakia follow 38 into the early 39. And the idea is that Germany's back.

James Holland (6:57)

Yes.

Al Murray (6:57)

And that Hitler has rebooted the country. It's got it on track with a military and economic renaissance. German pride is. Hearts are swelling once again. Chests are swelling with pride.

James Holland (7:09)

Yes. And they're wearing their leather jack boots and they've got eagles on their breasts and. Exactly. The chests are out, the shoulders are back and everyone can feel good about being German once again. And it's all okay.

Al Murray (7:21)

Yeah.

James Holland (7:22)

And he's got all these achievements. He's done all these achievements, the Anschluss, reoccupation of the Rhineland, creation of the Luftwaffe, etc. Etc. Etc. Without a shot being fired? So how can anyone dispute the fact that clearly Hitler is a genius and he is their guiding savior to bring them to a new era of excitement and brilliance and reclaiming their spot as number one nation in Europe, etc. Etc. But I think it's fair to say that despite all these Nazi successes and the successes of Hitler, the rebuilding is pretty superficial. It's wafer thin. It's on the weakest of foundations, you know, denying Jews and public life. I mean, quite apart from the kind of warped ideology, it's also not a very sensible idea on another level because you're expelling the brilliance of businessmen, engineers, scientists and all the rest of it which Germany is going to need to restore this greatness. So that's pretty dodgy. There's shaky foundations for the military as well. There's a massive shortage of motor vehicles and production levels can't remotely rival the us. And it's really interesting when one digs into all this stuff. So there is one motorized vehicle in Germany for every 47 people in 1939. To put that in some context, that figure is 106 in Italy, despite having Alfa Romeo and Fiats and all the rest of it. But that figure is 14 in the UK. It is 8 in France. So France is by far and away the most automotive society in Europe in 1939. And that figure is 4, 3 in the United States. And this is for every person. So this is the elderly and infirm and underage children and infants and all the rest of it. So basically every other person in America can drive is basically what you're saying. But one in 47 people in Germany, that's a problem because that means you haven't got many, many factories, which means you haven't then got very many garages and mechanics. You haven't got that many people who know how to drive, and you haven't got that many people who know how to mend them when they go wrong. And you also haven't got huge industrial plants producing these things. So that's a problem when you want to do an actor or carry out a hugely mechanical and automotive war. And, you know, only 134 Junkers 87 Stuka Dive was built in 1939, and 614 fighters and 737 bombers. That's not very many, is it?

Al Murray (9:51)

And that suggests several things, doesn't it? Is that Hitler's talk of war up to this point has been bluff, because it has been right.

James Holland (9:58)

It's a projection of power.

Al Murray (10:00)

It's a projection of power. It's for public and foreign policy consumption. Secondly, that Germany is nowhere near as flush as it might like to be, you know, whatever the economic recovery that has occurred, which, after all, had been kind of laid by Hitler's predecessors, actually, it's not that good. But it also suggests that people watching Germany aren't actually paying particularly good attention, because the fear in England at this point, in Britain at this point, is that the Germans are rearming like crazy and they've got millions of planes far outnumbered them.

James Holland (10:31)

Well, yes, the point is, you look at. You look at the triumph of the will, and you look at the film footage of the Nuremberg rallies, and all you see is this vast sea of automatons and Stormtroopers.

Al Murray (10:42)

Yeah.

James Holland (10:43)

And you just think, well, what hope have we got? I mean, of course there's. And then you see. I mean, I don't know if you've ever heard these. These German broadcasters, and you show. You see them with their Stuka dive bombers. And the commentator sounds excited, he sounds confident. He sounds like it's obvious we're the best in the world by miles. And this is, again, is picked up in America, in France, in Britain, but also by Germans, of course, as well. And then you have the moments like the visit of General De Villemant, who's the head of the French army, De l', Air, the French air force. And, you know, he's shown around these airfields by Erhard Milk. He's the number two in the Luftwaffe. And they see this big row of Messerschmitt 109s lined up. And Milk goes, ah, but that's not all. Come, and I've got another airfield to show you. And while they're driving to the other airfield, all the 109s take off and land at the next airfield. And Wilhelmann goes back to France and goes, the Luftwaffe is vast. We haven't got a hope. We must never go to war with Germany, almost it, but it's all smoke and mirrors. I mean, it's all just. It's just bullshit. Yeah, yeah, that's the truth of it. And of course, as we've charted the Kriegsmarine, the German navy, is tiny. They have virtually no merchant fleet at all, just no freighters, hardly any. And only about 30% of their troops are actually fully trained.

Al Murray (12:00)

Nevertheless, though, the Nazi control of the media is pretty strong. They're using radios, very strong radio to control the public. Radios are cheap and most homes have got them. Radios are also put. Put by the government in bars, civic buildings and schools so they can get their message out to everybody. While Germany may be short on motorcars per head, per head, there's. There's no denser radio coverage than Germany

James Holland (12:25)

itself anywhere in the world. More than the USA, more than the USA in 1939.

Al Murray (12:31)

Extremely consistent messaging that Germans are the master race, Aryans of the master race. The German military, military is the best in the world. Jews and Bolsheviks and Slavs are vermin and enemies of the German body, corporate, as it were. And their propaganda minister, Joseph Goebbels, is. He's very good at this. I mean, he's always seen as the absolute master propaganda. He's very good at this kind of propaganda, has to be said, brilliant at it. And one of the things they're very keen on is monitoring public opinion and responding to it. So which is, again, quite forward thinking of the, of the Nazis at the time is they're very much taken with making sure they know how the public are dealing with stuff and trimming their cells accordingly in terms of their messaging.

James Holland (13:11)

Yeah. And basically the Goebbels mantra is repeat, repeat, repeat. And it is this principle that if you say something enough, everyone will start to believe it. And, you know, that is unquestionably true. I mean, people do.

Al Murray (13:24)

Yeah.

James Holland (13:24)

And they do still to this day, obviously.

Al Murray (13:26)

And they're using radio for military purposes as well. So, I mean, it's interesting that their understanding of how important this technology is because in the end, the edge that the Germans have in 1940, when May 1940 comes and Fal, Galb and the fall of France comes, is that they're better at communicating than the British and the French. And they've got these new formations, Panzer divisions, they're called, with 16,000 men, which are made up of motorized infantry, a motorized reconnaissance element, mobile artillery, anti aircraft and anti tank artillery and panzers, so tanks, tiny ones that by the end of the war will look sort of unfeasibly small. And they're using radio to communicate by 1939 and it's integrated into their system.

James Holland (14:12)

The point about the Panzer division, it is an all arms combined motorised unit. And why that all sounds so dramatic is the vast majority of its units are not motorised. So it's only 16 out of the 135 well watch will be used for the invasion of the Low Countries in France are motorised. All the rest are using horses in their own two feet and all the rest of it. The point about the radios is this massive leap forward in radios and also production of cheap radios in a very small size means the military can go, well hang on a minute, if we've got all these cheap radios, we can shove them in our half tracks, we can shove them in our RM75, BMW motorbikes and sidecars, everyone could communicate and that was what was stopping us in 1914-1918. We'd exploit somewhere and we couldn't exploit that success because we couldn't communicate. Now we can and we can. All elements of our units, of our panzer divisions or whatever it might be can now communicate with one another. And that is the big game changer. And the two are completely linked. This development of the small radio and the development of better comms within the

Al Murray (15:20)

military and gives them the edge when the time comes then I mean military preparations aside, German diplomatic maneuvering goes up a complete gear in August of 1939 when Germany and the USSR, the Soviet Union signed the non aggression pact which is fascinating because they've spent the last 10 years the Nazi party, well Hitler since it began his political career has been heaping shit on Bolshevism, on the Soviet Union, on the idea of it, on the fact it's Jewish, on the fact it's a threat to civilization, blah blah blah. And now he's doing a deal with them. And it's a moment that turns everything, everything upside down. And the thing is, is the Germans have been training in the ussr, Luftwaffe have been flying in secret in the, in the USSR before they're announced, before they go legit. They've been on maneuvers there, they've been buying Soviet oil that actually lots of trade between the two even at the same time as they've been flicking it, visiting each other across Poland and it is in fact Poland, that's the sort of cherry on the cake for both sides that they agree to slice up Poland, return Poland to its vassal state that it was in full of Versailles Treaty and Soviets get the eastern third which is from pre Brest Litov's treaty in 1918 and the Germans get the rest. So previously German pre1919. So that's a final realignment of the Versailles borders back to where they were before the Versailles Treaty.

James Holland (16:49)

Yeah.

Al Murray (16:49)

Favoring two sides that up to this point have been acting as implacable foes, but actually have been doing some. Some quiet ticking over being friendly to one another in the. In the background, really. It's just sort of. They do it in the open. And this is an alliance is the truth. It is an allegiance. Their armies talk to each other about what they're going to do when the moment comes. And although there are people in Hitler's senior military circles who don't want to fight over Poland, Hitler doesn't listen. He wants the Danzig Corridor, which is a slice of Poland that basically given to the polls. So that, I mean, it's. When you look at it on the map, it doesn't seem like much of a solution. But then Kaliningrad is the same thing, where there's a sort of enclave of. Of German territory with Poland in between. And Hitler's trying to straighten that out, or it's his plan, isn't it? And he's trying to do the last bit of the Versailles thing where he gets the ethnic Germans back into Germany. And he doesn't think that the British and the French are going to retaliate, even though they've offered Poland a guarantee after the whole of Czechoslovak is gobbled up in the spring of 39.

James Holland (17:58)

He's a megalomaniac because he is in his own bubble. He's surrounded by yes men. And one of Hitler's fatal flaws is to view the world through the narrow prism of his own worldview. And that's not good enough. So he basically thinks, well, how would I think in this situation if I was Britain? But that's the wrong way to look at things. And he doesn't really have any geopolitical understanding. He has a natural political cunning. He has great oratory skills. He has this warped vision which people seem to have kind of picked up on. He has a terrific nose for other people's weaknesses. He's a master kind of communicator, but he has no geopolitical understanding at all. So he just thinks constantly fails to see things through the eyes of his enemies.

Al Murray (18:47)

Yeah.

James Holland (18:48)

And so he fatally underestimates the British and the French at this moment.

Al Murray (18:52)

Well, what they do is they conform to. They conform to his worldview to start with. You know, over the Rhineland, you see, they're Weak, they're decadent, they haven't got any gumption, any backbone. Then over the Anschluss, you see, they're weak, they haven't got any backbone. And also, you know, it's the reuniting of Germans, it's a principle of self determination. They can't really argue with us over the Sudetenland and then the, and then the actual annexation of the whole of Czechoslovakia. See, they're weak, they're corrupt. But what he, what he fails to understand is that, you know, fool me once, fool me twice, fool me a third, there's not gonna happen. He isn't going to get a fourth chance. That actually public opinion and the, and political opinion has calcified against him as a result of his actions.

James Holland (19:33)

Of course.

Al Murray (19:34)

And so the things that look like tactical genius in the moment in those, those first three instances of, you know, geopolitical change from 35 through to 38, 39, fine. But what he hasn't got the brains to do is realize that he's changed the circumstances of the game that he's playing by winning it so much.

James Holland (19:54)

No, exactly.

Al Murray (19:55)

It's really, really, really interesting how he just doesn't think, hang on a minute, they're going to run out of patience with me at some point. It just doesn't look, it doesn't seem to occur to him that that might happen.

James Holland (20:05)

No. And so it comes to pass. It comes to pass, doesn't it? You know, 1st of September, he goes into Poland. Two days later, Bang on cue, Britain and France declare war. The Second World War has begun. On 17 September, the Red army invades from the east. A week later, Poland has fallen. And you know, the domino effect is starting to take effect.

Al Murray (20:25)

Well, the ultimatums that he doesn't expect kick in basically. And obviously we have to zip forward to May 10th of May 1940. And the French government have been very unhappy about the situation they find themselves in. There's been no offensive action by the Western Allies, by Britain and France at all, although Norway kind of, but not quite because that's not really about taking on the Germans. That's about trying to nip off a strategic question rather than actually take on the Germans and try and force them out of Poland. There's been no leadership in that regard. The British government is preparing for a long haul war with a blockade and is expecting kind of similar stuff to happen. The French government has no proper appetite for battle.

James Holland (21:08)

Well, can I just make a point about this? So it's really interesting, I really, really think that to have a successful military, you need a strong political force as well. In a democracy, you know, the politics needs to be unified with the military. There are 19 changes of prime minister in France in the 1930s.

Al Murray (21:28)

Yeah.

James Holland (21:29)

And I think 15 prime ministers, so some of them come back for a second stab. But 19 changes of prime minister in 10 years, that's every six months. I mean, that's just astonishing. And this is the problem. So the reason the joined up thinking in the political structure of France, it's very fractured. They don't just have two party coalitions, they have multiple party coalitions from kind of right, centre and left. No one can ever agree on anything. And this is the problem. And so you don't have that strong leadership from the political heart, which means the military is left to its own devices to a certain extent and it is left without a political mandate. And that's a problem.

Al Murray (22:06)

You could therefore argue, Jim, from that what on earth the French government at the moment, the particular French government at the moment, where they offer a guarantee to Poland. Why on earth they're thinking doing that? Why on earth are they writing checks they don't really want to cash? You know, why are they doing that? What's driving them to do that when they're that politically unstable?

James Holland (22:26)

Because they know they've got to do this. They're worried about the westward spread of Nazism. They're also worried about the westward spread of communism. They just want to carry on with their strong politics. And they also know that Germany knows that France is a very, very strong and powerful industrial nation, which it is. You know, the term superpower hasn't been coined at this point, but by modern standards, that's what they are. They have the most automotive society in Europe, for example. They have huge grade factories, they've got, you know, a sound economy by this stage, and food production. I mean, you know, there is no rationing of food, for example, in France, until the Nazis defeat them in the summer of 1940. And that's because they don't need it because they've got it. And Germany opposes rationing in the summer of 1939, for example. There's no rationing in France at that point.

Al Murray (23:11)

Yeah. But also the French aren't taking the war as seriously as maybe they should, though, I think is one of the

James Holland (23:17)

arguments that, well, maybe they're not or they just haven't quite got their policy, but there is a confidence that their industrial output will see them right. And the basic strategy of Britain and France at this stage is to hold firm really kick their war production into gear, hold the Germans at bay, wait for them to strike, and then strike back and strike back harder. I mean, that's basically it. Yeah, but events prevent them from doing that. You know, this is why the saar offensive in October 1939 is such a. Is such a sham and such a. Such a total shower, because that's not what they're really geared up to do. They've got the Maginot Line on the German border, so they've got to hold that. Then they've got their fringe, you know, their hinge plan, the northern bit, that once. If and when Germany invades the Low Countries, they'll then move forward to meet it because they've got more tanks and more planes and more artillery pieces and they've got their allies. They'll be able to defeat the Germans because it's easier to defend than it is to attack. And then they'll gather all their forces together and do a big, massive counterattack. And this time they'll be able to win because their guns are more powerful, they've got more air forces and they've got more concrete. I mean, that's a thinking party, but all of that is, for the most part, that's the wrong supposition, but that's their strategy. But, you know, political indecision, conservative military thinking, hubris. Senior commanders are all in their 60s and 70s rather than 40s and 50s. It's a problem. Daladier resigns in March 1940. He's replaced by Paul Reynolds. That's the 19th Prime Minister. The French military leadership is dominated by First World War veterans and outdated strategies. You know, Maurice Gamelin, who's the C and C, he's 67. In May 1940, he's replaced eventually by Maxime Weygand, who's 73. I mean, it's absolutely ridiculous. And yet that attack, when the Germans do attack on 10 May 1940, a fine date, by the way, for obvious reasons.

Al Murray (25:08)

Al. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

James Holland (25:09)

You know, the Allies have superiority in manpower and aircraft. You know, they have 4,469 aircraft versus 3,578. They have 151 divisions versus 135. You know, it should. They shouldn't be losing, and they don't think they're going to lose either.

Al Murray (25:26)

But as we said before, the Germans have. The Germans have reformed. How they're going to operate with a form of mobile punch, basically, is what they're going to be able to deliver because they know they can't do it with the whole army. So they concentrate their resources in one part of it, in these Panzer divisions. Yes, and it ends up being known as blitzkrieg, but they actually call it Bewegunskrieg, which is war of rapid maneuver. You know, you've had a period of static warfare in the First World War that then ended in a period of mobile warfare. And everyone knows that actually, if you can keep things moving, keep the other guy off balance, everyone. Everyone thinks this, then maybe, maybe that's how you can win quickly. And the Germans, as I think we intimated, need to win quickly because their army isn't as big as all that or as strong as all that. Their industry isn't as fecund as perhaps it needs to be for a long war.

James Holland (26:11)

Yeah, I said it was set, 16 motorized divisions, but actually 17.

Al Murray (26:15)

Yeah, they organize around a sort of punch, a fist of 17 motorized divisions which coordinate, because they've got radios in an attack which basically catches the French with their trousers down. The French have reconnaissance reports that there's intense traffic congestion in Belgium between the 10th and 12th of May in the Ardennes. But the ancient French command simply think it's impossible, impassable. They are impassable. It is impossible. And. And Gamelan doesn't even have a radio. There are, you know, I mean, this is also bloody awful. Phone wires are cut by bombing and enemy troops are just in the chaos. Dispatch riders are sent out and they get. They got to get make way through swarms of refugees or they're killed and everything. The. The French system is operating in treacle while the German system is going at the speed of light, relatively. And yes, the German attitude is to keep going, just keep going, keep moving. And then the French, to sort of offer them opportunities, as well as the Germans being operationally sharp, the French start to sort of get. Make mistakes, get things wrong, and they're

James Holland (27:27)

caught up in penny packets. That's the truth, because they're never able to bring the mass, the bulk together. So what's happening is, although the Germans are outnumbered in literally every field, they never are when they're attacking. At the moment of attacking, they're massively overwhelming the enemy because a whole swarm of Panzer divisions is hitting one French armoured division or one French infantry unit. And so they're hitting them in these panic packets, in these small packets, without the French ever having an opportunity to move in some kind of bulk. And even when they're trying to do a coordinated counter attack south From Arras on 21 May 1940, the French don't come to the party at all. It's left to the British, who are understrength to be able to do what they're trying to do, you know, with the French. If the French had managed, and the British had managed to coordinate that armoured attack against the Germans, they wouldn't have got any further because it would have broken that spearhead completely, ground them to a halt. They would have all slowed down and everything. But the French just can't organize themselves quickly enough. And so it's mayhem. You know, the Dutch and Belgian surrender, British and French and French fruits that get packed into a tiny pocket at Dunkirk with a seat to their backs. You know, the Germans have effectively won in five days. I mean, it's just amazing.

Al Murray (28:41)

Yeah, well, they've done what they couldn't do in four years, in five days is the thing, and they're at the Atlantic coast in 10 days. Sixteen days after the offensive begins, the British begin to evacuate. 338,000 troops are rescued, but they leave all their kit behind. The odd rifle makes it back. French government, of course, collapses, as it. Well, it might. And Marshal Philippe Petain, who was born in 1856, so he's pushing 90.

James Holland (29:11)

Say no more, say no more.

Al Murray (29:12)

And he surrenders and agreed to run France as a dictator and as someone who is effectively counter revolutionary, so doesn't like the. The idea of the French Revolution, its values is happy to set up a reactionary government that is quite comfortable with jibing alongside the Germans. And the armistice is signed on 22 June 1940 in the same railway carriage at Compiegne. We' Germans had accepted defeat over 20 years earlier. And there's the film footage of Hitler approaching the carriage and slapping his thigh in delight because he can't believe it and nor could anyone else. It's the simple truth. No one can believe what's happened. It's absolutely shocking in every single way, isn't it? Yeah.

James Holland (29:52)

A strategic earthquake. Yeah.

Al Murray (29:54)

And by 20 years previously, 71% of Europe, excluding the USSR, had been democratic to varying degrees. By 1938, it's 37% of Europe. And by 1940, there's only four democracies as such left. Britain, Portugal, Sweden and Ireland. And Ireland's not interested. Sweden's staying out of it, Portugal's neutral. So it's just Britain in the war at this stage, the only democracy in

James Holland (30:19)

Europe that's in fighting.

Al Murray (30:21)

Yeah. And this is, you know, we called it the strategic earthquake. An awful lot on the podcast. And that's what this is the world has changed completely in just over a fortnight, six weeks. Yeah, yeah. And the assumption previously, of course, is that Britain would shoulder the naval burden with France's help, the help of the French navy, and that France, with the, its massive armies made up of, you know, the indefatigable Poilu, as Churchill would like to put it, they're going to do, run the ground side of things and, and sort it over. But, but none of that's going to happen now. Germany occupies France. There's a puppet government in the Vichy government, in Petan's government. Germany has also taken over Denmark and Norway which gives them the Atlantic coast. I mean it's quite amazing actually, the frontage. They now have their disposal from Norway all the way from the Arctic Circle to the Pyrenees.

James Holland (31:12)

Yep.

Al Murray (31:12)

And England then Britain, then whatever. The greatest strategic concern has always been ports in the hands of an enemy on the other side of the English Channel. Right. Or the other side of the North Sea, which has led Britain to all the wars, England and Britain to all the wars. It's fought really since the kind of time of Queen Victoria. The idea of a European hegemon. And now aircraft are 25 miles from Britain across the Pas de Calais, which is far worse than ships. The ancient British strategic problem on steroids is, is the thing. And at the same time, you know, the British government has also fallen because of the Norwegian expedition. Churchill becomes leader of a cross party national government. Chamberlain stays in the government though, is it remains in the Cabinet. And Churchill has been going on about Germany for a while, banging the drum and, and has always made sure he opposed chamber's policy of appeasement. I think it's always amazing that it's the same day as again, that's for the writers, the writers. It's all a bit on the nose this.

James Holland (32:09)

How can you, how can you fit it all into one 24 hour period? I mean, it's just extraordinary, isn't it? I mean, 10th of May, same day.

Al Murray (32:16)

Yeah. Well, although Churchill none of the fall of France, the fault of the fall of France sticks to Churchill because I think people understand that really it's nothing to do with him.

James Holland (32:27)

As we discussed in the Dunkirk episodes, you know, it is a very, very cliche for Britain at that moment and we've mentioned it before, that Monday 27 May is probably the day that Britain gets closest to losing the war. Things are very bleak. It's not expected that many more than 40,000 on a good day, you know, will be able to be evacuated Halifax, who had been tipped to be Prime Minister instead of Chamberlain, has become Foreign Secretary. He hasn't got a stomach for being a pm. He wants to explore peace negotiations with Germany through Italian intermediaries. Churchill's massively opposed to it. They nearly have this fatal split in the, in the war cabinet. But it, but it gets sorted out. The evacuation happens. 338,000 people are brought back. It's all okay, after all, few. But there's no question that a lot of British leaders are political and military are becoming paranoid that there's a scare that there's going to be a cross channel invasion that is imminent, the paratroopers are going to be falling from the skies and all the rest of it. Reality is this is very unlikely because Germans don't really have any landing craft. Navy is tiny compared to Britain's. Luftwaffe is only designed really to operate alongside ground forces, not independently. It's much more what we would call a tactical than a strategic air force, one that's designed for close ground support. And Britain also has the world's first fully coordinated air defense system with radar chain ground observers and the technology to sift through various radio signals. So Luftwaffe has never come up against this before and they don't do very well, is the truth of it, as we've charted in our Battle of Britain series and previously in our Dunkirk series. But what it does mean is that in Europe at very least, Britain is alone militarily and in a trading sense. And that's actually a disaster because the vast majority of its trade is done within Europe rather than further afield. So various trading partners are now closed off, which means money's closed off, which means resources are closed off as well, with the corresponding impact on supplies and food and iron ore, steel, paper and all the rest of it. But I think it's fair to say they're not alone globally, are they?

Al Murray (34:28)

No, no. But that takes time to kick in is the thing your global resources are, they aren't immediate. So that's why people are feeling very exposed and that it's touch and go in the summer. These sinews are yet to come into play. But what in the meantime, what Britain needs to do is make sure that the Americans come on are on side. That's really the only place to look beyond the Empire. So how do you get the Americans on side? And luckily, although the US is neutral, relations with Britain are pretty good. King George VI and Queen Elizabeth had visited the US in 1939, the first monarch to go to North America very

James Holland (35:10)

successfully, very successfully in July 1939. Yeah.

Al Murray (35:14)

If you're the war cabinet, you've got lots to think about. You've got to make sure that the Royal Air Force is ready to, ready to defend the country. You've got to get them and bomb Germany because your strategy is built around bombing Germany. Get the navy to create more minefields, be ready for an invasion. You've got to blow. Expand the army, re. Equip the army as well because all the kit's gone. You've got to keep an eye on other foreign overseas territories.

James Holland (35:39)

So, so, well, from Malta all the way to Singapore.

Al Murray (35:42)

Yeah. But you've also got to defend the empire because the, because there's Japan in the wings. And the worst nightmare is one world crisis is one thing, but two is another. And you've got to develop bases in West Africa because you want the shipping to flow freely because the, the Italians have entered the war on the side of the Nazis and are going to make the Mediterranean a difficult place to navigate. But most of all, Churchill thinks, right, those are the. That, that's, that's all obvious and that all comes with the sort of situation we're in. But what we need is America on side because of its massive industrial capacity, its workforce that at the moment isn't tied up in a, in a war effort necessarily, and the fuel that's on offer. And so after the break, we're going to look at what it looks like from the other side of the Atlantic. If you're the Americans, when France goes arse over tit, I think is the best way of putting it. We'll see you after the break.

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Al Murray (38:09)

Welcome back to we have Ways to make youe Talk With Me. I'm Murray and James Holland. So in that first part, I mean, we did the rise of the Nazis in the fall of France, Jim, or German military policy and.

James Holland (38:19)

Yeah, yeah, all in one go, all in one breath.

Al Murray (38:21)

It feels like, well, you know, this

James Holland (38:23)

is a big context, isn't it? You know, this is. The whole point of this series is to show how it all fits together. And I think it's, you know, 13th of May, the day that the Germans cross the River Meuse, the all important River Meuse at Sedan and Dinar and elsewhere. And Montme is a massive day in Washington as well, because that very same day President Franklin D. Roosevelt holds a meeting with Henry Morgenthau Jr. Who's the Secretary of the Treasury. General George Marshall, who at the beginning of September 1939 became the Army Chiefs of Staff, which is the most senior military figure in the United States military. Henry Woodring, who's the Secretary of War, and Charles Edson, who's the Secretary of the Navy. And Marshall wants to increase defence spending dramatically. So he's been trying to lobby Congress on this and not getting very far. It has to be said he has 40 years of a military experience. He's intelligent, calm, softly spoken. He wasn't the most obvious person to be Chief of Staff, incidentally, he was only a major general, he was comparatively junior. But all those attributes, the clear thinking, the determination, the moral backbone, all the rest of it, they see him into that post and it's a really, really smart decision. And Henry Morgenthau is very sympathetic to Marshall's concerns but wants to prioritise domestic issues. The highest priority in a democracy, after all, is the electorate. Plus, it's an election year. National debt is already massive. Post the New Deal, it's risen up to $40 billion, which is a lot in that time. And Woodring and Edison, despite being Secretary of War and Secretary of Navy, are vehement isolationists. So this is problematic. Marshall tells FDR some stark truths in the meeting, privately in a corner away from the other attendees, because he says, Mr. President, can I just have five minutes alone? And Roosevelt goes, no, no, we're all Friends here, you can say your piece. And he goes, no, no, no, no, I need to speak to you alone. So Roosevelt sort of rushes the others away and at this point, you know, Marshall says, you know, I want to tell you the army's in a dire state. It's far too small. We've only got 100 or so tanks, there's no anti tank guns. We are in a really, really bad situation. Mortars and machine guns are in a very short supply. The Air Corps has only 160 fighters and 52 bombers. And in total across the whole of the US Army Air Corps. The Navy is small too, but despite a big rebuilding process program, it doesn't have enough aircraft carriers and especially not with Japan getting more aggressive, fighting a war on two fronts, which is the potential with a military in this condition is unthinkable. And he says, you know, you've got a stark choice, you've got to make this happen or we're in the doo doo. And Marshall wants much closer alignment and support between the military and political leaders, which is of course the opposite of what happened in France. But the main obstacle to this higher defence spending is public opinion, which it always is. You know, I mean, you know, here in the UK at the moment we'd be spending more money on defence if the public was going to put up with it. And on 10 May a Gallup opinion poll reveals that 95% of all Americans don't want the US to get involved in the war. Although having said that, 66% are in favor of giving more aid to Britain and France. And the figures, interesting, are fairly equal between the Democrats and Republicans. So it's not really a partisan issue. And this does wake up Roosevelt because to be perfectly honest, Marshall is speaking truths that he already knows. He already knows the situation isn't good enough. But what he hasn't worked out is how to get this increased spending across the line before the election without everyone thinking he's trying to go to war and bring America into war. It's a very, very tricky ridgeline, political ridgeline for him to walk is the truth of it.

Al Murray (42:16)

Well, yeah, because it's not like the situation the British are in where there is a, there is a war that they have been, that they are involved in. It's going on somewhere else and no one's on, America's under threat. I mean, you know, global security maybe, but not America as it, as it appears. Although they then start to trickle this out, this idea out into the media, don't they? So you have the New York Times on 11 May says that the US has a moral duty to put our house in order to strengthen our defense, to prepare ourselves against the consequences of German success which might spread across the Atlantic or Pacific to our own hemisphere. Which is interesting because that's before France has gone under, that they're thinking that beyond the direst predictions have occurred. And one of the things Marshall succeeded in doing in September 1939 is persuading Roosevelt he needed to expand the army because the army's too small and obviously the next step would have to be conscription. Is the truth.

James Holland (43:09)

Yes.

Al Murray (43:09)

He's leaning on FDR the whole time that they need to tilt the economy more towards the military because although there is massive potential for increasing production, there are still only six actual arsenals, actual factories producing weapons.

James Holland (43:23)

I mean, six. Six. I mean, that's incredible, isn't it?

Al Murray (43:27)

Yeah, yeah.

James Holland (43:28)

And here we are, you know, the moment that Marshall is doing this kind of five minutes with the President on his own is the 13th of May 1940. You know, so the Germans already across the mers on that day, he's saying, you know, if you don't do something and do it right away, I don't know what's going to happen to the country. Yeah, I mean, six arsenals only in the United States on the 13th of May 1940. That's it.

Al Murray (43:55)

But this is the product of 20

James Holland (43:56)

years of isolationism and just over 200 frontline aircraft.

Al Murray (44:00)

Yeah, just amazing. Well, and Churchill writes to him the following day and says, I Trust you realise, Mr. President, the voice and force of the United States may count for nothing if they are withheld too long. And again, this is only a few days into the German offensive. It's before France has fallen. So you could, even before the war goes calamitously wrong for the West Allies, it's quite clear that the thinking is changing quite dramatically in Washington. But isolationism, I mean, this is the fruit of 20 years of isolationism, this stuff. The fact that there are only six arsenals producing weapons, the fact that their army's so small and you've Charles Lindbergh, who is world famous as the transatlantic aviator and he's, he's on the airwaves on American radio saying America shouldn't enter the war, it's nothing to do with us. And in September 1940 he makes a speech supporting the America First Committee, which is an anti American involvement movement.

James Holland (44:55)

America First. I mean, can you believe it?

Al Murray (44:57)

Well, yeah, and, and I think, you know, but the thing is, is after all, you said it earlier, Jim. You know, America's full of people, left Europe to get away from Europe, don't want anything to do with Europe. So you can, you can see why this sentiment might, might exist and you can see why, you can see why before, you know, although France has fallen by the time he makes this speech in September 1940, you can see why he might think Nazi Germany isn't a direct threat to America and that it's none of America's.

James Holland (45:26)

Yeah, but also it's because, because Limberg and a lot of these other isolationists, these American first types, as they don't realize that America has become this global superpower, that the preeminent economic power in the world. And whether they like it or not, that puts them in world affairs. You can't be isolationist when you're that economically strong. That's the problem. You know, Lindbergh is a romantic and he's a nostalgic, so he's sentimental. So he wants to go back to a simpler kind of America where we were just left to our own devices and Americans and kind of drive and independence and all the rest of it. But, but, but that ship has sailed. You know, that's, that's the tragedy of Limberg. That's where he just doesn't see how the situation has changed.

Al Murray (46:08)

Yeah, he's an anti Semite as well. So he's sympathetic to the Nazi, doesn't see why that would bother anyone. The Nazi direction of travel on that. But then so are plenty of people, I think is the unfortunate thing you have to say about that time.

James Holland (46:20)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Al Murray (46:21)

You know, I mean, after all, it is an interesting thing, isn't it? Global dominance power only works if it's involved with other power. Power on its own. Isolationism. You're making yourself less powerful by isolating yourself.

James Holland (46:36)

Yes.

Al Murray (46:37)

If you remove yourself from other systems, your influence diminishes. It doesn't increase it. You know, sovereignty doesn't exist in a vacuum. It can't or it doesn't exist at all. Anyway, so FDR has been strategizing how to unpick legal constraints to rearmament, but

James Holland (46:57)

he knows that he's the only person that can lead America through this crisis. He's now eight years in the job, or eight years since first elected, coming out to eight years. And he knows he's got to do this because he's the only one with the geopolitical understanding and vision to see how you can do this.

Al Murray (47:14)

Yeah.

James Holland (47:15)

So this means he's gonna have to Stand again in the November 1940 election. But that means an unprecedented third term. There is no legal constraint to this at this time in American history, but there is precedent. No one's ever done it. But the stakes are incredibly high because he thinks if we don't do this, then we might not end up going to war and we will miss this chance. And actually, our situation is much more precarious than most people think it is. So he's got to sort of strategise, first of all about how to unpick the legal constraints, because there's been all these legal constraints imposed on rearmament in the 1930s. At this moment of isolationism, that's a massive problem on his watch, it has to be said, which he's now got to unpick.

Al Murray (47:58)

Yes.

James Holland (47:59)

And not least with the neutrality acts of 1935, 1936 and 1937, which impose arms embargoes on any international party at war. Well, that's not going to help him helping Britain and France. Well, Britain, now that France is out.

Al Murray (48:13)

No. And I mean, this is all part of this tremendous political backflip that he has to perform, because those are acts on his watch, watch, the Neutrality Acts. And there's a new one in 1939 which loosens constraints via what's called a cash and carry policy, which allows other countries to buy American arms, but they have to pay for them and pick them up themselves, literally.

James Holland (48:34)

Yeah, but that works for Britain because Britain's got the navy to do it and it's got the cash to do it. And obviously America's on the right side of the Atlantic for Britain doesn't work for Germany because it doesn't have a merchant fleet and ability to get into the Atlantic because there's an economic blockade. So that works fine.

Al Murray (48:49)

Yeah.

James Holland (48:49)

And they can get across the border to Canada, of course, the British stuff.

Al Murray (48:52)

Yeah. And this is a compromise, obviously, to keep Congress quiet and the isolationist lobby. But he's still publicly backing neutrality is the best way to keep the peace and keep America safe. But this bill then passes through Congress in November 39, and he's also expands his executive power. And this is very interesting, actually, because this is the great checks and balances of the American system, is that, you know, the President can only do so much and Congress. Congress can constrain him and all this sort of thing, and the elections all overlap to keep the whole thing sort of even tempered. So he gets Congress. That's the thinking, anyway. Congress passes the Administrative Reorganization act after two years of sort of Horse trading. And this creates the Office of Emergency Management which allows the President to create new agencies to manage defence or specific emergencies under his direct authority. So it's basically giving him a loophole in terms of rearmament. And this means he doesn't have to go to Congress for some stuff. It's not particularly democratic, at least not within the American constitutional context. But he feels FDR feels it's necessary to get a fire under rearmament. And on the 25th of May, so just as the Dunkirk evacuation is about to begin, he invokes the Office of Emergency Management to gather the National Defence Advisory Commission, the ndac. And their aim is to get. The idea of that is to get together industrialists, businessman's politicians to get started with a technocratic approach, the expansion of the American military and military production. And he gathers together these three absolute legends of the behind the scenes.

James Holland (50:39)

Yeah, Bill Knudsen, so he's a first generation Dane who's come over in 1900 and he's the pioneer of the assembly line when he'd been at Ford. And he's also the guy who says to Ford, you know, we need to change the model every year because cars are aspirational. And Ford goes, no, the Model T is absolutely fine. And he goes, no, no, no, no, you need to change it. And Ford doesn't listen. So he goes, right, I'm off. So he takes over Chevrolet and rebuilds it and that's how he grows up in General Motors. But this idea that you have a new model every year which is a bit better than the one before is genius. And of course he's absolutely right. Then there's Edward R. Stettinius Jr. Who's the chairman of U.S. corporation, who'd oversee the steady flow of raw materials. And the Sidney Hillman, who's the president of the Amalgamated Clothing Workers of America, who would head the division training apprentices and non combat duties. And you know he gets huge criticism for this. You know, why aren't you going to politics? Why are you getting all these big business people? It was big business people who kind of sort of brought us all the problems in, you know, in the First World War, blah, blah, blah. But actually these are exactly who he needs. And they're dollar a year men. The idea is that they're being paid $1 for their work. You know, when in the case of Knudsen, this is, you know, this is seen, you know, he sees this. I've been incredibly successful. America's been very good for me. You know, this is me giving back my time to my adopted country. And one of the things that Knudsen says to him straight away is you've got to get rid of the demortization laws in the Scott Trammell, the Vincent Trammel act of 1934, I think it is. And this is one of the biggest constraints. And this comes as a result of the Nye Committee, which is named after Senator George Nye, which is called upon to, you know, it's a committee that's set up by Roosevelt in his first term. And this is to investigate the idea of war profiteering at the end of the First World War and to propose new legislation so the big business can't profit from the deaths of young Americans. And it's now seen that it's risky for FDR to be so closely affiliated with big manufacturers like Knudsen and Stettinius and so on. But the Vincent Trammell act, which is one of the things that comes out of the Nye Committee, means that no firm is allowed to make more than 8% profit from any arms production. And they also have to pay the costs of bidding for government contracts themselves. And we won't get reimbursed if the contract's not granted. But the worst bit of it is there's no amortization for 16 years. So in other words, whatever cost you have, you can't offset that against tax for 16 years. So say you're being commissioned in to make a new tank in 1940, you can't offset that cost against your tax until 1956. And the whole point of this is to stop people doing any military production. But now that you do something that wants to be a military production, he's somehow got to unpick this. And that's not easy. But what he does do is what Roosevelt does with a bit of sort of political nous, which I think is just genius, is he realizes that unlike Woodrow Wilson, who'd been, you know, stayed very kind of partisan with the Democrats, he needs to now have effectively a war cabinet which is cross party. It's like a nationalist government rather than Republican or Democrat. And he knows that Edson and the other Woodring who had been the Secretary of State for War and Navy, were hopeless and isolationists and not going to cut the mustard. So he sacks both of them and brings in the legendary Henry Stimson. He's an absolute doyen of American politics and diplomacy as the new Secretary, say for war, also a new Navy Secretary who is Frank Knox. And both of them are Republicans and had been critics of the New Deal. But at this moment, they're the right men for the right job and especially who are going to help Roosevelt get Congress to come round to this way of thinking. And that summer of 1940, I think it's in July, they managed to suspend the Vincent Trammell act. And that is directly with the help of Stimson and Frank Knox and other Republicans. It's really, really clever and it's just Machiavellian political nous. That's all you can really say about it.

Al Murray (55:11)

Well, and there's some big contracts is the other thing. In the end, yes, politically, he doesn't want to be seen too big, close to big business. But big business want to be close to this kind of spending splurge. Right?

James Holland (55:21)

Yeah, they do. But politicians don't.

Al Murray (55:23)

Don't.

James Holland (55:24)

And isolationists don't because look at the mess it got us in last time, et cetera, et cetera.

Al Murray (55:29)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Although like in all politics, they don't until the next second when they do, actually.

James Holland (55:35)

That's true.

Al Murray (55:36)

These things can just flip, can't they? So Congress approves big defense spending packages. So there's 1.2 billion requested by FDR on the 31st of May 1940. Then he asks for 5 billion on the 10th of July for Navy construction and army creation, which is granted. And interestingly, he says to Congress and James, if you're thirsty on us, if

James Holland (55:58)

the United States is to have any defense, it must have total defense. We cannot defend ourselves a little here and a little there. We must be able to defend ourselves wholly and at any time. Well, amen to that.

Al Murray (56:10)

And then Marshall and Stimson get together and they advocate compulsory military service. So the draft, and they've never. There's never been a peacetime draft in the US And FDR is worried about the political impact that, that it might jeopardize his reelection campaign. However, in August 1940, it's clear from opinion polling that 65% of Americans are actually now in favor of conscription.

James Holland (56:33)

That's a big change. That's a big change.

Al Murray (56:35)

And this is coincident with footage of the Battle of Britain and then the beginning of the Blitz, which really brings home to Americans what's going on, that the war's getting worse and maybe getting closer. Could they be next? So in September, remarkable. This is before the election, a conscription bill is signed into law. He takes that political risk. Roosevelt, he's able to take that political risk. Of course, he wins his third term in November. And it hadn't always seemed clear cut The Republican nominee, Wendell Wilkie runs on. Obviously Wendell Wilkie is a good name, but not for a president. It's sort of named for someone in a fairy tale. He runs on a, on a staunchly isolationist ticket. And FDR has taken again has to say, look, we might be spending all this money making all these preparations, but it's purely defensive. We're not going to war. We aren't going to go rolling our sleeves up and getting involved. Even though he knows it's pretty much kind of inevitable. And thanks to FDR's clever rearmament strategy and agenda, defense contracts rise sharply. So there is some carrot in all this for the people who he's spending money with. Very much so, which, which will keep things moving along, you know, and pork barrel politics is now like defense port barrel policy is now an absolute established feature of American political life. And there's a, there's some of that going on here. But I mean the, the scale of it however is enormous, isn't it?

James Holland (58:03)

It's absolutely incredible.

Al Murray (58:04)

Yeah, yeah, it's incredible.

James Holland (58:06)

Yeah, yeah. Well, you know the, the National Defense Advisory Commission have cleared contracts with 984 naval vessels. I mean just think about that. Including 292 warships and 12 aircraft carriers. 12 aircraft carriers. I mean you think of the scale and the complexity of these things. I mean, you know, go back to us sort of beetling around and in awe of the engine rooms on HMS Belfast, a light cruiser. And then think about these 12 aircraft carriers which are all being made in the autumn of 1940. It's absolutely astonishing. Unemployment is also falling due to job opportunities and rearmament industries. And by November there's still anxiety about American entry into war. But the public in the US nonetheless feel more convinced that the US has now the readiness to fight should it be needed. But it's worth saying that throughout the election campaign Roosevelt was saying, no, no, no, no, no. This is just to make us secure, this is to make us stronger, this is to give us more clout. And also so this means that we can send arms to our allies so that their young men can die fighting the Nazis so that our young men

Al Murray (59:16)

don't have to, yes, they're going to fight to the last British soldier, perhaps. Anyway, if you want to see how this now unfolds because of course war still hasn't come to America and how FDR then faces that challenge and also the efforts of Winston Churchill to, to get the Americans in. Join us for our next episode if you want to listen to those all in one delicious slice. Then the best thing to do is to become a Patreon. Join our Patreon. You can Exclusive membership. All sorts of bits and pieces on there. There's audiobooks from way back when we first started. There's all sorts of stuff. There's live casts, you name it. Second World War waffle, we've got it. Or become an Apple Channel officer class member.

James Holland (60:03)

Not as good though, is it?

Al Murray (60:04)

No, it's not as good. We'll see you soon. Thanks for listening. Cheerio.

James Holland (60:08)

Cheerio.

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