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WW2 Pod: We Have Ways of Making You Talk
Warbirds of Liberty: The Fantastic Fighting 4th - The Eagle Squadrons (Part 1)
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- [00:02]
Al Murray
Thank you for listening to we have ways of making you talk. Sign up to our Patreon to receive bonus content, live streams and our weekly newsletter with money off books and museum visits as well. Plus early access to all live show tickets. That's patreon.com wehaveways. Residence Day savings are happening now at the Home Depot with up to 40% off select appliances. Looking to upgrade your fridge? Check out LG's newest model serving up ice in all kinds of styles. Cube crushed craft ice and now new mini craft ice straight from the dispenser. From cold brew to fizzy favorites, these refrigerators will have you entertaining like a pro. Shop President's Day savings and get up to 40% off plus free delivery on select appliances like LG at the Home Depot. Free delivery on appliance purchases of $1,498 or more offer valid February 5th through.
- [00:52]
James Holland
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Al Murray
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James Holland
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Al Murray
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James Holland
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Al Murray
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James Holland
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Al Murray
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Al Murray
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- [01:25]
James Holland
Nine years of bring back the snack wrap and you've won. But maybe you should have asked for more. Say hello to the Hot Honey snack wrap. Now you've really go to McDonald's and.
- [01:38]
Al Murray
Get it while you can.
- [01:49]
James Holland
Blakeslee spoke for himself and for the fourth group's star performers when he said, we love fighting. Fighting is a grand sport. Can you imagine a bomber pilot, an infantryman or a medic saying that fighting was a grand sport? Their only thrill came with surviving another day's combat. The fighter pilot, Blakesley in particular found dog fighting six miles above the earth, about the same as knights jousting and breaking lances before the ladies of the court in a tournament at 7am A debton pilot might be eating fresh eggs and reading the Daily Express at 9am diving on a Fokker wolf atop a cumulus cloud at 600 mph. At 8pm Standing in the glitter of the bar at the Savoy telling his goat friend how he did it. And that was written by grover C. Hall Jr. In 1000 destroyed, which was a brilliant book that was published just after the end of the Second World War about the US 4th Fighter Group. And I'm just going to start off by saying for me, these boys are the daddies. They're absolutely the business. And I've always been rather overly enthralled to them. I have to put my, my hand up right here and now.
- [02:59]
Al Murray
Well, that's why people listen to this podcast, Jim, really, to, to enjoy your thrills. Let's, let's be honest now. Let's, let's cut straight to it. Welcome everyone to. We have ways of making you talk your Second World War podcast for Second World War thrills. Enjoy vicariously the pleasure of Jim admiring the 4th Fighter Group and their evolution, their, their origins and their involvement in the Second World War in this, in this form of war that I. And I think it's very interesting, the romance that surrounds flying. It's the pilots themselves, the journalists who can't resist it, the public who seem to, who seem to buy into it and can't get enough of it and all this sort of stuff that they're nights jousting and breaking lances. And I think if I had to rationalize the business of flying a fighter plane, that is, this is probably how I would do it rather than, you know, get into how terrifying large element of it might be and all that and all that sort of stuff. So this is a fascinating story and what we thought we'd do is look at it through the prism of one of the key players, basically.
- [04:04]
James Holland
Well, a number of the key players, but one particular one.
- [04:07]
Al Murray
One in particular. And the people around him, because the fourth Fighter Group has its origins in the Eagle Squadrons of.
- [04:16]
James Holland
Yes, it does.
- [04:17]
Al Murray
That are American volunteers who come to fight for their brilliant ally, the United Kingdom. And even before we are allies, determined.
- [04:28]
James Holland
To continue their thrills, to continue to have thrills in the air, but also to do their bit, to fight against, fight the good fight, dictatorship, despotism, and be part of the moral crusade in which the Allies are embarked.
- [04:43]
Al Murray
Exactly.
- [04:44]
James Holland
But yeah, I mean, the four Fighter group, I mean, I came across them first of all when I ages and ages and ages ago. And I remember seeing a photograph, a color photograph of Dom Blakeslee. And it was taken from above, looking down. He's sitting in his cockpit in his P51 Mustang sometime in 1944, and it's in color, which is obviously quite unusual for the Second World War. But. But it is. And there he is. He's got his piercing blue eyes. He's got a jaw as square as Desperate Dan's, you know, and he is just the embodiment of how one imagines in one's mind's eye what an American top ace fighter pilot is gonna look like. You know, it's pure Hollywood. I mean, let's face it, that's what it is. Then when I was doing my book on Big Week, I came across this fabulous photograph of Don Blakeslee, the same man briefing his pilots. And he's got one leg up on a, on a, on a stool and he's, he's leaning forward on it and all the pilots are looking at him. They just look like a different generation. They don't look like the 1930s figures that the German fighter pilots do. They don't look like the British in their blue suits and the Battle of Britain. These guys just look rock cool. They've all got square jaws. Some of them have got pencil thin moustaches like Clark Gable or Errol Flynn. They're all ferociously good looking and modern. And I think that's the point. And at the heart of this picture is Don Blakesey. And you're just thinking, God, how are you? They're just oozing confidence, self assurance, you know, the sort of knowledge that they're absolutely the top guys in the tree.
- [06:24]
Al Murray
Yeah.
- [06:25]
James Holland
And it just completely comes across in this one single photograph. And that's really the starting point. But Dom Blakesy is a very, very interesting character, it has to be said.
- [06:34]
Al Murray
Well, I mean, ladies and gentlemen, there are going to be outbursts of James Holland thrills throughout this episode of that. Of that kind. I'm quite happy with a Fighter Command pilot with his pint of warm beer, wearing slippers. Exactly. With his dog.
- [06:50]
James Holland
And the cravat.
- [06:52]
Al Murray
And his cravat. That'll do me. But James wants redder meat, it would seem.
- [07:00]
James Holland
I'm not saying that I don't like the, the slippers and pipe look, you know, I'm all for it. I think it's great. And there's, there's a, there's that fantastic picture of number one squadron in France in 1940, where three of them are wearing slippers and just another one's wearing pajamas, clearly underneath his, his blue suit. And that also makes my chest swell with pride, but in a different way. That's what I'm saying. I'm just saying, when you're, when you're looking at American fighter pilots in the mighty eighth, these guys are, you know, they're the top bananas and as you say, steering, steering through the absolute beating heart of what becomes the four fighter group because it doesn't become the four fighter group until the autumn of 1942 is this extraordinary character. Don Blake's here. I just, just say it right now. There is no Allied pilot who flies more hours, combat hours than him in the entire Second World War. And I would say probably ever from an Allied fighter pilot. I mean it is just extraordinary how much he flies.
- [07:59]
Al Murray
He can't get enough, can he? And, and what's interesting is they don't succeed in doing what, what you know, the British tend to do, which is, well, you're, you're experienced now. People need to learn from you, they need to train with you, you need to teach people what you're doing, you need to go, you need to go around on government bond drives and all those sort of things. It just doesn't happen.
- [08:16]
James Holland
Not for him it doesn't. It does for lots of others, I.
- [08:19]
Al Murray
Know, but it's remarkable that he somehow, he must have somehow found a way of wriggling out of it and evading it and avoiding it, dodging it, which I think is, which is remarkable really because you know, in the sort of U.S. army, Air Force's ideal world, he'd have been off doing a bomb drive, wouldn't he? Or a Drive for P51s or whatever. Just doesn't happen. By the time we get 4th Fighter Group, he's the Deputy Commander, the EO and he's a legendary figure within the 8th Fighter Command as Jim has already that described him. He's striking looking, he's tall, he has blue eyes, he's, he's a square jaw, he's renowned for his flying and his leadership skills. And he's, I mean this is all, I mean this is pure Hollywood. And you wonder, is this him or is this him thinking I'm going to dig into like a type because that's going to get me a long way. He's gruff, he often curses, he has confidence and self belief that make him a magnetic and compelling leader.
- [09:13]
James Holland
I mean think John Wayne in the Searchers. Okay? John Wayne in the Searches, that's Tom Blakesley. Get off your horse and drink your milk.
- [09:21]
Al Murray
So that, and he's from Ohio, he grew up in Fairport harbor in Ohio. And he, and I think what is interesting about Blakesley is he's one of these people, the air bug, the interwar air bug is one of these people bitten by the interwar air bug that you have these flying shows, you have air Races that these are. These are a function of the Jazz Age and all this sort of stuff, this idea of technology and science and the air is the future.
- [09:47]
James Holland
Modernity.
- [09:47]
Al Murray
Modernity, exactly.
- [09:49]
James Holland
Modernity and thrills. That's the point.
- [09:51]
Al Murray
Yes. Yes. Modernity has thrills on offer, which is interesting, isn't it? Because at the other end of that period, Richard over, he wrote a book called the Morbid Age, about the interwar years, about how gloom and morbidity stalked the public imagination. That's what gets you to the. One of the things that gets you culturally, the Second World War. Yet here we have optimism. Flying as a thrill. Technology is a thing that's taking you forward. The future as a. As a thing to be excited about and to sort of muck in with. And he's. There's that other current, isn't there, in between the wars.
- [10:26]
James Holland
Yeah. And I just. Just imagine you're young. You're a young boy in the American Americas in the. In the 1920s, and America is the most modern nation in the world and everyone knows that. And they know that. And, you know, suddenly you're a young kid and you're going to the Cleveland Air races and you're just thinking, oh, I want a piece of that. That just looks totally brilliant. Why wouldn't I want a piece of that? So he. He's born in. In September 1917. So he's, you know, he's 18 in 1935, and he's left school and he's working at the Diamond Alkali Company and he saves up money to buy a Piper J3 with a friend. They fly all the time. Then his friend crashes the plane in 1940 and is written off. And he thinks, well, you know, I can't afford another plane, but I really want to keep flying. And then he hears about the, you know, you can go across the border and go into Canada. This time he's 20, 23 and. And he thinks, right, I'm going to go over there and join. Join the Royal Canadian Air Force. He lies to his mother, saying he's only going to go as an instructor and never be. Never ever be sent into combat. Trains just goes, bye, so long, Mom. And off he goes and he's in. He's sent to. He's sent to England and he's there by May 1941. And, you know, and it's worth just reminding people that, of course, you know, at this time, America is still neutral, it's not in the war and doesn't get into the war until December 1941. But they are still contributing to the Allied war war efforts in different ways. You know, they're supplying arms and so on. Roosevelt's been quite canny with the Neutrality Acts, trying to kind of sort of pair them back. So it favors the Western Allies and particularly Britain after France falls. Yeah, Then there's a huge rearmament package that starts in summer of 1940 and goes through to 1941. And, you know, this is the arsenal of democracy and all the rest of it. And then there's lend lease in March 1941 as well, all before America enters the war with the creation of the.
- [12:21]
Al Murray
Atlantic Fleet, all while Roosevelt is winning an election on an isolationist ticket. Jim, let's not forget that. Right. I mean, this is, this is the incredible duality of, of, of FDR that he's able to, he's able to get this lot through while at the same time. And you know, one of the ways he's able to persuade Americans or a chunk of American opinion about, about Lend Lease and about arms sales to the UK and France is it's going to make them a load of money that it's good for business and it's good for the New Deal.
- [12:46]
James Holland
And also this is a war of good against evil. America represents good. And hey, here's an idea. We can make ourselves rich providing weapons and arms for other people's young men to put themselves in the firing line so that we don't have to.
- [13:02]
Al Murray
But he's also expanding the army and the Navy in the Air Corps. Regular listeners will know we've banged this drum a bit. The army is, I don't know, smaller than Turkey's or something in 1939, isn't it?
- [13:11]
James Holland
They produce 18 in the world between Uruguay and Portugal.
- [13:15]
Al Murray
That's it. And they produce 18 tanks that year.
- [13:18]
James Holland
In 1939 in Roosevelt's expansionism. And we will be looking at this in much greater detail at a subsequent series later on this year. By the way, expansion of the air, of air power is absolutely central to his thinking. And it is air power above all, that persuades Roosevelt that the world is shrinking and that the Atlantic is no longer the great big barrier it once was. So it's absolutely the heart of his thinking. And also, again, air power represents cutting edge technology, modernity, all the things that America has come to symbolize. So that's all sort of part of it. Eleven Americans volunteer for the RAF during the Battle of Britain. Pilot Officer William Billy Fisk pretends to be Canadian in order to enlist. And he's the first American pilot to be killed in the war, crashing his plane in June 1940.
- [14:07]
Al Murray
Do they say, well, where were you born? Where were you born? Out, chap? And he says, I'm from Toronto, sir. Toronto, sir. Oh, yes, jolly good. And do you know the, the, you know the Athenaeum in Toronto?
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James Holland
Oh, yes, on the other side of the square.
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Al Murray
But, Jim, this is wonderful. We've been doing this podcast for six years. I teed that up, and I knew you were going to get that right. I knew you were going to turn that into Where Eagles Dare. I knew it.
- [14:37]
James Holland
I think there's a comfort in my predictability.
- [14:39]
Al Murray
These American pilots basically become the kernel of American fighting experience in the air, in the fighter war, don't they? They become a sort of nucleus as more men volunteer, more men come, and then, of course, the America is entered into the war in December 1941. I always think that's the best way of looking at it. The Americans, very wisely, they don't volunteer for the Second World War, but then they are volunteered by Tokyo and Berlin. And so you get more people coming in, people like Blakesley, people who love flying, people who have seen, have decided what they make of the Second World War are going to be drawn magnetically to serve and to fight. The US Government knows, really, actually, there's not a lot they can do about it. So they become more relaxed.
- [15:19]
James Holland
They're pretty relaxed about it, aren't they? They don't exactly encourage it, but. But they don't really care. Concurrently, while this is going on, you know, in Canada, you know, and there's all these recruitment places around the uk, famously in. In Los Angeles, for example, there's. There's one. There's one up in Seattle, if I remember rightly, and there's one York, for example, and Billy Bishop, who's a. Who's a First World War ace, and Clayton Knight, who is a First World War American volunteer pilot, they create the Clayton Knight Committee. And this is absolutely brazenly recruiting Americans for the Royal Canadian Air Force. And by the end of 1941, 7,000Americans have been recruited this way. I mean, it's a hell of a lot, isn't it? I mean, okay, only 15% actually go on to become pilots, but, you know, they are. That's a. That's a big number, isn't it?
- [16:04]
Al Murray
Yeah, that is a big number. Who's paying for the Clayton Knight Committee? How's this? What's. What's going. You know, what's. What's going on here?
- [16:10]
James Holland
Well, I'm sure the British government Is. Is. Is enthusiastic about their enterprise.
- [16:19]
Al Murray
Well, exactly. These guys do then go on to join the raf, and after the fall of France, the Royal Air Force puts them together in a single unit. I mean, it's easier, isn't it, to have them all together. And also it's good propaganda, isn't it? Look at these plucky Yanks who get it, who understand, because if you've got Joseph Kennedy in London, who is operating firmly on a defeatist, isolationist ticket that you can. You can make great play out of these guys, can't you? You can, you can say, the free world stands together. And look at these, look at these fantastic Americans coming to our aid. Why would you have them scattered like raisins through the Fighter Command fruitcake when you could all have them all together in. In one squash fly biscuit, so to speak?
- [16:58]
James Holland
It's really interesting how they do it because. Because, you know, those first 11Americans that fly in the. In the. In the Battle of Britain, you know, they're sort of scattered all over the place. There's a guy called Shorty Keough, who's only kind of five foot nothing, who flies with 609 Squadron, for example. There's a number of them. They're literally spread throughout fighter Command. Then 71 Squadron, or the Eagle Squadron, is formed in late September 1940, although it's not operational to start off with, which is why it doesn't formally go into the Battle of Britain. Americans are also. There's more Americans coming in than are required for 71 Squadron. So to start off with, they're also then spread all over the place, you know, 43 Squadron or 234 Squadron or whatever it might be. And it's not till the following year, 1941, in May and July 19, May and July that year, that they then produce two more, create two more squadrons, 121 and 13 3. And all of them are made up entirely of American pilots, but you still have more American pilots sprinkled throughout Fighter Command. But anyway, one of those is, of course, coming over is Dom Blakeslee.
- [18:09]
Al Murray
And May, the summer of 1941 is, you know, is the height of Fighter Command rhubarbing and all that sort of stuff, isn't it? So when Fighter Command is, yeah, taking its squadrons over the Channel and basically doing the Battle of Britain in reverse. So it's all about fighters. And Blakesley arrives in England, but he isn't posted to any of these, to the Eagle squadrons, but to 401 squadron at Biggin Hill instead, up on that massive Hill Ridge outside Southeast London in Kent.
- [18:40]
James Holland
Yeah. And the interesting thing about Blakesley is when he gets there, he just loves it. He loves the insouciance that is so kind of practiced by RAFA Fighter Command pilots. He loves the kind of, you know, the top button undone on the tunic. He loves the beer drinking. He just feels like. And he loves the fact that he can be this slightly dashing, kind of cocky American amongst all these Brits, but at the same time buy into that kind of Fighter Command vibe and culture that is very, very distinct, and he just loves it. And he loves the elegance of the Spitfire. He. He loves its, Its sort of feline quality. It's the, you know, everyone always talks about Spitfires, particularly Spit fives being thoroughbreds and all the rest of it. You know, he, he, he's just found his tribe, basically. Yeah, this is what he like. And he likes the hard drinking, going down to the White Hart at Braston every night kind of culture that is such a part of it all.
- [19:41]
Al Murray
And he does 200 hours of operational flying. I mean, all right, mate, you can.
- [19:45]
James Holland
Retire now, just not a small amount.
- [19:48]
Al Murray
Yes, he's given instructor duties, but he resists, doesn't he? He's not interested to recuperate and he's not interested in joining an Eagle Squadron. He wants to be part of the Royal Air Force Fighter Command, doesn't he? He thinks they're. I quite like this. He thinks the pilots are punks and he's not fond of them. I just love this guy. He's told if he joins 133, which is an Eagle Squadron, then he can carry on flying.
- [20:10]
James Holland
Yeah. And you'll remember that the 133 is the last of the three to be formed in July 1941.
- [20:16]
Al Murray
He thinks, well, splits the difference. That's better than being an instructor. He'll put up with the punks. And he joins in July 1942. So America's entered the war by this point. So there's going to be a question as to what, what becomes of these squadrons eventually, isn't there? But by this point, yes. Who else is part of this picture, Jim?
- [20:35]
James Holland
Well, there's a number. There's a number of people who come over and who will then go on to, again to join Blakesley as part of the kind of absolute core of what becomes the fourth Fighter Group. And one of them is Dwayne Beeson, Captain Dwayne B Beason. He also. He's another interesting character because he shares Blakesley's obsession for flying in 1942. He's 22 years old from boys Boise, Idaho. And he's a quiet lad. He's not like, he's not like Blakesley who's, who's sort of, you know, outspoken, gobby, irreverent, all those sort of things. This is, this is not what he's like. He's quiet, he plays football boxes. In high school he'd initially wanted become a lawyer so save money to hitchhike to Oakland, California and got a job as a hotel clerk whilst he attended law classes. So this is a guy who's got a steal to him. He's got a bit of get up and go, a bit of, a bit of graft, you know, and. But he gives all this up once war begins because he's absolutely determined to contribute to the war effort in some way before America has joined the war. You know, he's one of these people who thinks Hitler needs to be stopped, needs to do his bit. Yeah, got to get on with it. So he joins the Royal Canadian Air Force by the Clayton white committee in June 1941, trains hard in Canada, racking up over 200 hours of flying again. You know, you think at this time flying hours in your logbook before you join a squadron sort of, you know, they are definitely edging upwards because it's easier to fly in a mass hours in Canada because the skies are clear and there's lots of space and you're not constrained by the Luftwaffe coming over or by low cloud or you know, appalling winters and all the rest of it. So you can amass ours more quickly.
- [22:14]
Al Murray
Well, or being recognized wrongly by fighter command, shot down, I mean, you know.
- [22:20]
James Holland
Whatever. But my point is that what you see is, you know, in the Battle of Britain time, you know, a German or a British fighter pilot would probably get into their frontline squadrons with 150 to 170 hours in their logbook. But already by 1941, because of the air training schemes they've got in Texas with the Americans, with Canada, those hours are going up already. So, so Beeson having 200 hours is, is absolutely that, that is indicative of that increase by this stage of the war. He then gets sent over by ship over to, over to Britain and there he joins 71 Squadron, which of course is the original Eagle Squadron in Debton in the summer of 1942. And Debton is near Saffron Walden, it's sort of south of Cambridge. The public relations officer in the in the RF says on, says about Beeson, he says, says he was always spoiling to go out and kill Germans, having picked up an unaccountable Hun phobia somewhere along the line. I mean, only an American could say that, couldn't they, in the war?
- [23:18]
Al Murray
Well, you talking about him being a lawyer, this is a guy who's maybe more intellectual, isn't it? So he's approaching this, you know, got some brains on him. So he builds his own gunnery gadget at Debton to practice deflection shooting, which I think is really, really interesting because the whole art of gunnery in the skies that you, you know, obviously you have to account for the other aircraft's movement and your own movement and have to deflect your shooting. He knows how important that is to crack and to figure out.
- [23:43]
James Holland
Yeah.
- [23:43]
Al Murray
So, you know, he's engaged with it intellectually as well as, as well as having an unaccountable Hun phobia. His attitude to the Germans might be an intellectual one, that he thinks Nazism is something that needs to be destroyed. You know, he might become, not from a position of anger, but an intellectual position that, you know, fascism has to be. Nazism has to be resisted.
- [24:02]
James Holland
He reminds me a little bit, I think he's a much more attractive character than George Burling, you know, the screwball Burling from Malta. But he's got that same kind of sort of quiet steeliness. You know, as you say, he's a pragmatist, isn't he? He's not a seat of a pants kind of guy. He's kind of. He's like Winkle Brown, you know, he sort of thinks about it very pragmatically. You know, I'm going to do my prep, I'm going to get ready for this. I'm going to think about it scientifically. He's just a different, a different type of, type of character. And then there's Don Gentile. And Don Gentile is another of these great figures. Again, a very dashing, good looking chap. He's got a sort of lean face. He's another obsessive flyer who's got the bug as a boy and has managed to kind of, you know, learn to fly. And, you know, and he said, I can't remember a time when airplanes were not part of my life and can't remember ever wanting to do anything so much as to fly one. Once I had started, I had to keep flying. And he's raised in Piqua, Ohio. He's the son of Italian immigrants, no surprise there. Saves up for flying lessons as a boy. And then with the money from waiting at his father's club, buys an old plane and an anonymous caller rings up his mother and says, your son bought himself a death trap. So the plane doesn't end up, you know, I mean, it's not, it's not, it's not flyable. And his parents realizing that, you know, their son is going to kill himself if he's not careful, they actually then buy him a 450 buck Aerosport biplane when he's 17.
- [25:33]
Al Murray
Well, what's $450?
- [25:35]
James Holland
I would say that's about 25,000, something like that.
- [25:40]
Al Murray
$450 in 1939 is $10,493.
- [25:45]
James Holland
So it's a lot, isn't it?
- [25:47]
Al Murray
It is a lot of money. And he obviously waited a lot of tables to come up with 300 bucks, didn't he? For his, for his original gelato.
- [25:54]
James Holland
Yeah, but if he's working with his dad, I guess he's, he's getting a few.
- [25:57]
Al Murray
This is like buying a, buying a car with your, with your paper round money, isn't it? Basically. So he's, he's bought himself. I just think this fl. The idea that you could save up and buy a plane from waiting tables tells you everything about America between the wars and the sort of, sort of flying boom, you know what I mean?
- [26:14]
James Holland
You.
- [26:15]
Al Murray
He's not bought a hot rod, he's bought a biplane.
- [26:17]
James Holland
Yeah, I think it's fair to say that the, the gentiles didn't, didn't lose all their money in the crash. They probably squirreled it away in a, under a squeaky forebod behind the porch, don't they?
- [26:27]
Al Murray
Yeah, he's a speed freak, isn't he? So he likes flying his biplane low and fast over the town. So you just see that gentile.
- [26:33]
James Holland
Your son's out of control.
- [26:35]
Al Murray
You could just see it, can't you? He's still in high school when the war starts, so he's flying while he's in high school.
- [26:40]
James Holland
It's just, I mean, I mean, how cool is that? He's good looking, he's tall, he flies a plane, he gets all the girls.
- [26:46]
Al Murray
He wants to be a pilot as soon as the war breaks out in Europe. But his parents say, I mean, absolutely fantastic. They know, no, you got to go to uni, you got to go on a football scholarship and he needs it. You might need a degree to get into the army air course. You got to do this properly. You need something to fall back on. This is the oldest parental story ever told, isn't it? With a, with a with a 17 year old who wants to go off and have an adventure.
- [27:09]
James Holland
You'll never make a career flying planes, John. Oh you listen to me punk.
- [27:13]
Al Murray
But then he hears of course that the RAF is taking American pilots over. He goes yeah, I'm from Toronto, trains in Canada. And he's sent to the Eagle Squadron, 133 Eagle Squadron in England at the end of 1941. You know, we get different attitudes from each of these people that are all part of the sort of mosaic of what makes the 4th Fighter group work. I think he says flying an airplane is only part of fighting with one and most of the other parts a man has to learn from his fellow soldiers and from the enemy. He discovers he's got perfect vision. 2020 is perfect, but 2010 is better than perfect. That half second or one second advantage he gives you over your enemy in picking the black speck of him out of a scud in the sky of a flecked up grays blues or blinding bleached out yellow is the difference other things being equal between killing or being killed. The other thing is really interesting here is America is the country with the cinema media culture of fast talking wise guys and back chat and all that.
- [28:06]
James Holland
That's where it all comes from. This is so they talk like that, they talk like movie cliches.
- [28:09]
Al Murray
Exactly. These people have been marinated in a culture that is about that has flying era flying airplanes as a sort of thing you do at high school because you've saved up waiting tables. There's possibilities of that. And also smart talking bat chat wise guy pithy phrases of course because they're.
- [28:29]
James Holland
Spending every, you know, at least twice a week they're going to the flicks, you know, they're going down in the movie theater.
- [28:34]
Al Murray
Whereas the British equivalents are all. Well that was a sticky wicked old boy because they've been brought up in cricket and warm beer.
- [28:42]
James Holland
Warm beer. But also, but also a culture of self deprecation, not shooting a line and never showing any kind of emotion whatsoever. That's really important. The thing that characterizes all these three, they're very different characters. But I think the thing that really characterizes them is they're smart, they're physically fit, they're, they're hugely competent and they've all got that unbelievable drive and steel, haven't they? Yeah, these are can do people.
- [29:11]
Al Murray
We should take a quick break and then we're going to come back with some, some more of these people who if I didn't know better I'd say you've just made all of these people up and you're pitching a script. Jim, this is basically, this is your elevator pitch for a film of perfectly cast American types. In order to deliver a vision of an America that we can all be at ease with, we will take a quick break. We'll see you very soon. CRM was supposed to improve customer relationships.
- [29:41]
James Holland
Instead, it's shorthand for Customer Rage Machine.
- [29:45]
Al Murray
Your CRM can't explain why a customer's package took five detours.
- [29:49]
James Holland
Reboot your inner peace and scream into a pillow. It's okay.
- [29:53]
Al Murray
On the ServiceNow AI platform, CRM stands for something better. AI agents don't just track issues, they resolve them, transforming the entire customer experience.
- [30:02]
James Holland
So breathe in and breathe out.
- [30:05]
Al Murray
Bad CRM was then.
- [30:06]
James Holland
This is ServiceNow.
- [30:11]
Al Murray
Welcome back to. We have ways of making you talk with me, Al Murray and James Holland. For part one of our fourth Fighter Group series, we've looked at Dom Blakeslee, we've looked at Dwayne B. Beason, we've looked at Dan Gentile. And now a man whose name it's as if an AI has actually named someone, Jim Goodson. I mean, come on. This is totally on the. He's the son of someone good. This is just too much, Jim.
- [30:35]
James Holland
But remember him because from our Atlantic War series, he's the guy on the SS Athenia that sunk on the 3rd of September, 1939. Remember, he gets back to Londonderry and he goes, right, that's it. I'm going to do something to get these bastards. What does he do? He goes. He goes. And by the way, he really was genuinely born up in Toronto. He's got British parents. He's born in the U.S. they've emigrated to the U.S. he's then largely brought up in Toronto, in Canada. He's a. He's an amazing guy because he's also joined up and come back over after the war. He wrote this amazing book called Tumult in the Clouds. And, and this is all about his time of the Eagle Squadrons and then with the four fighter group and he is still in the RAF. He comes, comes over in, I think, late 1941, something like that. And, and when he meets another character called Vic France.
- [31:22]
Al Murray
Vic France.
- [31:23]
James Holland
France. Okay. He meets Vic France. And I think, you know, in many ways these guys are leading their best lives, aren't they? Because they're flying Spitfires, they're having fun. They're going off and drinking beer and getting girls and stuff. Anyway, Goodson, one night is in the salted almond bar at the Trocadero Hotel. And most Americans tend to kind of gravitate towards the Crackers Club, But Goodson and two of his pals have dates with three girls from the Windmill Theater, which is like a. It's like one of these sort of clubs. You know, we can go to music and dance the night away.
- [31:56]
Al Murray
Isn't it. Isn't the Windmill where they do the nude review and the girls have to not move? As long as they don't move, they can be naked.
- [32:04]
James Holland
Exactly that. And we're just coming to this very point, in fact, as it happens. And they've gone to the. To the salted almond in the truck because they don't want any competition from the other Americans. So they got. They've gone to somewhere neutral. And Goodson loves the Windmill, and as you say, it's a cabaret bar with music and girls standing naked. Blitz is still going on at this time, because this is the spring of 1941, rather. So. Yeah. So he gets there a little bit early. It's the spring of 1941, and one night Goodson's there at the Windmill when a bomb lands nearby in Piccadilly. There's a huge explosion is felt and heard. He says it's like an enormous wave. The lights go out, the air is full of dust and plaster and everyone's coughing and spluttering. And he writes. But when the lights flickered on again at the back of the stage, the young nude was still in her statuesque pose, her hair covered in dust and debris, which also covered her naked body, and the pure white breasts, one of which was scratched by a piece of falling plaster. The contrast between the snow white breast and the dirty plaster and dust and the angry red scratch was what I felt so often in those early days of the war. Wow. Wow.
- [33:18]
Al Murray
She didn't move or the club lost its license.
- [33:21]
James Holland
Yeah, yeah. Anyway, you know, sometime a little bit later on, Goodson and two of his mates, they're now in the salted almond bar and they're joined by Audrey Joy and Joan from the Windmill. And, you know, the whole thing's sort of, you know, they're a picture of radiance and it's all good and they're chatting and drinking when Goodson is aware of other members of the Windmill cast there too, because there's two casts, because they work in shifts. You know, one's on, one's off. Anyway, Goodson is surprised to see them at the trot because he thought he was being quite canny, sort of taking away from the usual Haunts. And then this tall, good looking pilot walks in. As he says, he's like a perfect blend of Robert Mitchum and Elvis Presley. And he's wearing an RAF pilot's uniform, but it's clearly tailored, so the trousers have been taken in. They're not the kind of sort of baggy, loose things. The jackets nipped in at the side a little bit as well and tucked in. So he's got these huge broad shoulders and he's wearing black cowboy boots rather than the normal shoes. And on the shoulder he has a patch, which is not USA or Canada, but Texas. He's obviously had it made specially for himself.
- [34:25]
Al Murray
Yeah.
- [34:26]
James Holland
He acknowledges Goodson and their mates, then nods to three girls from the Windmill who immediately get up and go off with him. And Goodson's incredibly impressed by this, but doesn't speak to him properly until one day he's landing at Southend to refuel after a particularly long convoy patrol. And he goes into the mess that night and sees several pilots he knows from 71 Squadron who are now based there at Southend. And they go, oh, come, come with us on a trip into town. So they head to the Queen's, Queen's Head in Southend. They've been there a while. When he sees the same pilot he'd seen in the Trocadero, the salted almond ambles in and he goes over to a table where there's an incredibly beautiful girl being chatted up by a guards officer. And this American, this Texan, just nods at the girl, walks past and then a minute later she gets up and follows him and, and Goodson says, who is that guy? I've seen him a couple of times now. And he always seems to be getting the girls. Who is he? And they go, that's Vic France.
- [35:24]
Al Murray
Vic France. He's a. He's an actual pre war civilian pilot, so not just some hot rod kid like some of the others. And he's come via the Polaris Flight Academy, which is wonderfully. What could that possibly be? The Polaris Flight Academy? Oh, it's a way of getting pilots to the UK to fly in the raf. And that's. Which is the way Don Gentile came. So interesting. That's in California, Glendale in California. And the British are funding that. What it really is is a refresher course for existing pilots. Clearly there's someone with a checkbook going around in the US setting these things up and no one's prepared to object. And they call the classes squadrons, don't they? That's interesting. So they're getting them ready right from.
- [36:08]
James Holland
The off for the whole thing, isn't it? That's a smart move, isn't it? Making them feel part of something. There's 21 of these squadrons in Org. They run until kind of mid-1942. 213 pilots graduate from Polaris and Vic France is one of them. He's part of 15 Squadron. Don Gentile by the way was part of 12 Squadron. So from here he's sent up to Canada and then across the Atlantic to join the RAF. And he arrives in England in March 1942 and joins 71 Squadron. So the interesting thing about that is obviously he's joined the Polaris before America's in the war. And so this is how Jim Goodson meets him. And Vic France is a brilliant pilot as well as a lavario. And his personal plane is called, first of all it's called Miss North Dallas when he's in the Eagle Squadrons and then later on it just becomes Ms. Dallas. And he's another of these highly skilled, dashing and hugely self confident pilots which are now very much the beating part of the Eagle squadrons.
- [37:06]
Al Murray
And they're flying for Spitfires. Right. So if you're one of these pilots who's grown up in the, you know, the biplane age in America, flying your hot rods, you're now in the most, the best performance fighter in the, you know, on the block, the hottest rod of all. So the, so the thrills, these guys are thrill seekers and they are hard headed and they're tough people and they're focused people but they get, they're getting their kicks delivered in every way imaginable, aren't they? I mean it just sounds like what a life.
- [37:32]
James Holland
You know, it is true that a huge number of casualties occur during these rhubarbs and these sweeps over France that is un deniable but it's also the case that, that you know, if you're half decent you can quickly start amassing the hours and the experience and it becomes, I would say proportionally less dangerous.
- [37:53]
Al Murray
Yes.
- [37:54]
James Holland
I mean those who get shot down, you know, the really good aces that get shot down, like sort of Barters and Stanford Tuts and people like that, they're doing so because they're, they're pushing it too hard and they're being a little bit reckless. But if you're sassy and smart and you got your wits about you, there's no real reason to be shot down. You might get unlucky, you might come across a kind of, you know, get shot by flack or whatever. But for the most part, you can survive. Most of these guys are having untroubled time and what they're doing is they're amassing huge amount of hours on their logbook. So, you know, like Dom Blakesley, for example, you know, in his first stint in the Eagle Squadrons, he's already come over with 200 hours plus on his logbook, perhaps more because of his being a civilian pilot. Then he's added another 200. So he's got sort of 400 hours, you know, by, by the summer of 1942. But this isn't to say that there aren't disasters and there aren't catastrophes and that things don't go wrong. And this certainly happens to 133 Squadron, the third of the Eagle Squadrons. You remember, they were first one was September 1940, then May and then July. And it is July 1941 that 133 Squadron is formed and July 1942. So a year later, an event takes place that dramatically changes the future of the 4th Fighter Group. And this is just after Blakeslee's joined. So he joins at the beginning of July 1942, and his CEO, which is Carol Red McUlpin, is eligible to be rotated back home to the US with a number of the Eagles originals. And so he has just left the day before when suddenly, on the 26th of September, 133 Squadron and two other squadrons are on an escorting mission in their Spitfires, accompanying B17 bombers with the 97th Bomb Group. And the 97th Bomb Group is one of the very first of the what will become the. The 8th Air Force to come over to England. They are on a mission to Morlaix in Brittany. And the bombers are supposed to be targeting a Focket Wulf maintenance plant and a large rail hub. So the mission is considered completely routine. You know, go across the Channel, get to Brittany, job done. Yeah, and the squadrons have done this umpteen times before, especially over Brittany. And hardly any of the pilots go to the pre blight briefing because they don't feel they need to, you know, done it, been there, done it, got the T shirt. You know, it's a bit like kind of not really listening to the pre flight briefing when you've been on your 30th EasyJet flight or whatever. The plan is for the squadrons to rendezvous with the 97th Bomb Group over the English Channel. But the bombers get there 20 minutes early and instead of waiting for the Spitfires, they just carry on towards their targets and more lay unescorted. The Spitfires in the meantime are circling around the Bay of Biscay, waiting for new orders and burning out lots of fuel in the process. And missions like these, generally speaking, they're aborted if the rendezvous isn't successful. But this time, the fighters are ordered to catch up with the bombers and escort them to Morlay as previously planned. But disaster, disaster. The pilots had been given incorrect information about the wind speeds, so ground control had advised the squadrons when they're heading into that, they're going to be heading into a 35 knot headwind, which will slow them down. Actually, the Spitfires are flying into incredibly strong tailwind with a current about 100 miles an hour. It's completely the opposite. And some of what they've been told, yeah. And so on this, based on this erroneous information from ground control, the fighters reckon they're going to be 33 minutes to the bombers. But of course it isn't because they're propelled far further and up to 100 miles beyond their destination in that same time. And their fuel tanks don't have the capacity for that kind of range. And there's thick cloud, so they've got no visibility beneath them. They can't tell where they are. So ground control can track the Spitfires on radar, but they can't disclose their location to the pilots because the Luftwaffe would then intercept the messages. So you can see this is a perfect storm.
- [41:59]
Al Murray
Yeah, yeah. 100% cock up. Yeah. And they do. Some of the fighters find the bombers, but the cloud's too thick for the bombers to identified the targets, because that's the problem with bombing is how do you find the thing in the first place. Interesting. Paul Tibbets is part of this bomber effort who ends up later in the war dropping little boy. Yeah. So everyone thinks, well, they throw the tally and they turn around and they go. They've overshot their planned distance flight. Fighters are out of fuel. They circle the Bay of Biscay. Interestingly, the pilots think, the fighter pilots think, well, we're over England, we should be okay. They start coming down through the cloud, but they're over. They're over Brittany. The Luftwaffe has had a proper look at what. What's going on, has been tracking all this. And they're bounced by Fokker Wulfs and anti aircraft fire and absolute chaos ensues. Absolutely amazing. This from 133 Squadron. Only one pilot of the 12 that left England makes it back. That's incredible. Four are killed, six are taken prisoner, and one goes on the run. And all 12 of the aircraft, the Spitfires are lost.
- [43:07]
James Holland
So that's just. That's a totally horrific day for 133 Squadron. And it's made worse by the fact that its CEO, yeah. Red McULPIN, has transferred out of the RAF and into the USAAF that very morning. So Jim Goodson, he joins 133 Squadron that very same day. He gets to the airfield where they're all based and he meets John Teal for the first time because Gentile hasn't flown with the squadron. And John Don Gentile goes, hi, I'm John Gentile. I sure am glad to see you. I'm all alone here. And Goodson goes, well, where are the others? And Gentile goes, don't. You know, none of them came back. And Goodson goes, came back from where? From the mission. You know, it's a completely sobering start, you know, because it's so good. And arrives on the day that 12 pilots have been lost.
- [43:57]
Al Murray
Yeah.
- [43:57]
James Holland
You know, and as you know, there's sort of 20 pilots in a. 20 odd, 22 pilots in a. In a squadron. So to lose more than 50 in one go is a. Is a huge, huge hit, but unbelievable. And, you know, it completely shakes the foundation of a squadron that's already an outlier and lacking, I would say, the cohesion of the. Of the other two Eagle squadrons, because, yeah, 71 and 121 are based at Debton, and 133, because it's created a little bit later, is based in a different village, a great Samford, which is a satellite of Debton. You know, there's no proper airfield. It's just a grass field and it's just a few huts and a few tents and things. And it's not. Doesn't have the infrastructure. So 133 Squadron, they feel. They don't feel a part of the three Eagle Squadron wings. They feel like outliers. They feel like Johnny Come lately. They feel like the last. Last in. And so therefore they've got the sort of, you know, the brunt of the kit and all that kind of stuff. And. And they feel that 1, 21 and 71 look down on them a little bit. Because they do look down on them.
- [44:59]
Al Murray
I mean, let's make no mistake, this is very often how these things work, though, isn't it? Is that the first squadron formed regards itself as the. As the bee's knees and as the. As the originals of the first in and the Senior Eagles, as they call themselves.
- [45:11]
James Holland
But what it means is that one thing, 133 is rudderless, has had its heart ripped out of it. Yes, it's got some new pilots, but it needs a new co. Yeah. And they've got a recently arrived new flight commander called Don Blakesley. And he is appointed the new commanding officer of 133 Squadron. Yeah, and so on that first evening, he calls everyone into the bar in the mess and announces that the drinks are on him. And everyone thinks wee and they, you know, they have a massive piss up, everyone gets pissed. And then just as they're all turning in, it's, you know, it's in the early hours of the following day, Blakesley informs them they've all got to be ready to fly at 6am Goodson says of him, he goes, he was a great believer in the RAF tradition of hard drinking and high living and never permitting either of them to interfere with a constant readiness to fly and fly well at any time. So that morning at 6am There are all these weary, bleary eyed, sort of still pissed pilots stagger down to the dispersal hut and Blake thing says, right, all 16 planes in the squadron are going to take off at once, you know, because they're no longer flying in twos, they're flying in finger fours. And so they're four flights of four, which is why they're operating in 16. And you know, usually from Great Samford, this tiny little grass airfield, you know, they'd take off in twos or absolutely max fours. And he says, we'll form up on this way on the east perimeter. When I give the signal, the squadron will take off in formation. All the pilots absolutely gasp at him in disbelief, you know, and then the pause is cut short by Blakesley who just shouts, move. So off they go. But, you know, taking off in this, this way is incredibly difficult. And Goodson does this, writes this brilliant bit where he recalls how the planes barely cleared the fence and the trees around the airfield in those sort of initial minutes. I'm completely heart stopping minutes.
- [47:09]
Al Murray
Yeah.
- [47:10]
James Holland
But the plan works. Everyone is flying in perfect formation over Debton and Blakes is shouting, tighten up, let's show these bastards, I. E. The other Eagle squadrons. And of course, when they touch down, everyone's excited about what they do, talking about it breathlessly. It's the most amazing bit of flying they've ever been involved in. And Goodson says, you know, that evening, Blakeslee wasn't the only 133 pilot with the belligerent swagger. It had become a squadron characteristic.
- [47:40]
Al Murray
So it's just, I mean, the Music swells during that scene, Jim. The music swells.
- [47:45]
James Holland
Yes.
- [47:46]
Al Murray
The Stars and Stripes flutters in slow mo. There's a swing band in the bar afterwards, girls doing the Lindy hopped. I mean, you know, it's just, it's just, it's all a bit on the nose. That's all I'm going to say. You're, you're, you need a rewrite to tone some of this down. I think you, you, you need to speak.
- [48:05]
James Holland
Yeah, well, we've done a lot of saying. It's like Hollywood, Hollywood couldn't write it again. You couldn't, could you? I mean, you can see John Orloff almost kind of sort of, I don't know, trembling over his pen as he kind of thinks about the opening scene of. Of Warbirds, the new series from Tom Hanks and Spielberg.
- [48:21]
Al Murray
You just dictate that to the, to the director. There you go. That's what we're going to do into.
- [48:26]
James Holland
Chatgpt and say, write me a script.
- [48:29]
Al Murray
Write my script based on these true events. What obviously is coming is that the US Army Air Force is coming to, is coming to Britain. And they've been, they've been in a sort of limbo, haven't they, between the two. And so on the 29th of September 1942, the Eagle Squadrons, regardless of what they all think of each other, have Transferred into the 8th Air Force Force as the US Army Air Forces set themselves up in Britain and they're to form the 4th Fighter Group based in Debton. Everyone knows this is coming, one pilot says. We knew it was only a matter of time until the Eagles will be renamed and most of us will be wearing an American uniform. And the squadrons are given new numbers to. For those of you who like to be dazzled or confused by squadron formation numbers, 71 Squadron becomes the 334th, Fighter Squadron, 121 becomes the 335th and 133 becomes the 336th. So there you go. And obviously people who listen to our Battle of the Bulge series know that the American fondness for formation names that are indistinguishable from each other is rich, deep and unending. And there they go again, folks. But they basically repaint their aircraft, don't they? So instead of the Roundel, you've got the US Star over the, the RAF Roundel. And they change their uniforms, they move their decorations over to their tunics, they put the silver wings, American Air Force, Army Air Force silver wings on the breasts of their jackets and they keep their knitted RAF wings sewn onto the right.
- [50:03]
James Holland
So that's a nice touch.
- [50:04]
Al Murray
It is a nice touch. And, you know, I imagine when pilots start arriving who aren't able to wear RAF knitted wings, these guys feel extremely superior.
- [50:14]
James Holland
They stand out a little bit. But actually the transition is met with, you know, for the most part is met with enthusiasm. They want to be part of their own nation's air force and all the rest of it, but they get much better food. Yeah, they're quite happy to be rid of the RAF sort of English menu. There's no more bubble and squeak and there's plenty more steak and chicken and fruit and veg, real coffee and ice cream and cola. And of course, they get much better pay, so two to three times their RAF counterparts. So the RAF pilot is paid equivalent to around 67amonth, but a United States Army Air Force second lieutenant is paid around 162. That's quite a big difference, isn't it? And it goes a lot further in the salted almond club, I can tell you.
- [50:54]
Al Murray
Down the windmill, you're going to impress more of the motionless dancers, aren't you?
- [50:58]
James Holland
Right, Exactly. Exactly. So on 29th September 1942, the Eagles official transition parade takes place at Debton with Air Chief Marshal Sir Charles Portal expressing the gratitude for the Eagle squadrons. And he says in his speech, there he goes. On the occasion of the merging of the Eagle Squadrons with the US Air Corps, I would like to thank them for all they have done during the past two years. The RAF will never forget how the members of the Eagle Squadrons came spontaneously to this country, eager to help us in the critical weeks and months during and after the Battle of Britain. And the band then plays the Star Spangled Banner and the US flag is hoisted.
- [51:36]
Al Murray
If I had a hat, I'd toss it into the air right now. Jim. Huzzah. God save the King.
- [51:42]
James Holland
Yeah. God damn it.
- [51:44]
Al Murray
An incredible story with this. With this unfailingly on the nose cast of American titles.
- [51:51]
James Holland
Amazing characters.
- [51:53]
Al Murray
So that's part one. We're looking at fourth fighter group across four parts. I hope you've enjoyed that first part and that, like our go getting American pilot friends, what you really want is to get into the action. And the best way to do that, you haven't got to fork out for a biplane you haven't got to wait at your dad's caf in order to get tips to buy a death trap. No, all you have to do is subscribe to our Apple podcast channel offers a class or become a patreon the pay. I would say the Patreon's the better offer because there's, there's a little bit more available to you. There's live cast, there's bits of audiobook, this, all this stuff. We also are very much enjoying this story, I gotta say. It's got, it's got, it's, it's still too on the nose, Jim. I just hope Hollywood can back off in the next three episodes, but I have a feeling it won't. Thanks for listening, everyone. We'll see you soon. Cheerio.
- [52:51]
James Holland
Cheerio.
- [53:04]
Dominic Sambrook
Hi there, everybody. It's Dominic Sambrook here from the Rest Is History and Gordon Carrera from the Rest Is Classified. Now, over the last month or so, the regime in the Islamic Republic of Iran has been pushed to the edge, having seen the largest protest for a generation ripping across the country. Tens of thousands of people have been killed by the Ayatollah's forces since the uprising began. And a lot of people outside Iran are asking, is this the beginning of the next Iranian revolution? And Goal Hanger is covering every element of this. On the Rest Is Classified, David and I have looked at the role of intelligence agencies in this conflict. With the Internet blackouts and so much unknown, we've been looking at whether spies are best placed to judge whether the regime is truly at risk of falling. Now, on the Rest Is History, we have been looking at the origins of the Iranian regime at the 1979 Iranian Revolution, which saw the fall of the last shah and his replacement by the rule of the ayatollahs. Now, given that the last shah's son is being touted abroad as the man who might, just might, save Iran, you can't understand what is happening now without understanding what happened back then at the end of the 1970s. But it's not just our own two podcasts that are covering Iran. If you want to know whether Donald Trump's military buildup in the region means it's likely he's going to wade in and force regime change, hear Alistair Campbell and Rory Stewart cover the latest developments in the Rest is Politics. And our dear friends at the Rest Is Money have been looking at the economic collapse, the corruption and the impact of the sanctions that have been eating away its social cohesion in Iran over recent years and have pushed so many people onto the streets and on Empire, they've been looking at the similarities and differences between 1979 and today. How is it that a country that less than 50 years ago forced the Shah out of power is now seeing crowds chanting, long live the Shah. So whatever happens next, to the people of Iran and to all those brave souls who've turned out on the streets to protest, stay tuned to Goal Hanger for all the context and the answers and the analysis that you need. Find. The rest is history. The rest is classified empire. The rest is politics. And the rest is money. Wherever you get your podcasts.