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Warbirds of Liberty: The Fantastic Fighting 4th - Transition (Part 2)
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- [00:02]
A
Thank you for listening to. We have ways of making you talk. Sign up to our Patreon to receive bonus content, live streams and our weekly newsletter with money off books and museum visits as well. Plus early access to all live show tickets. That's patreon.com we haveways. Five months ago, I came here when the first group of you would transfer to 8th Fighter Command. You will never know what it meant to us to receive a group of fully trained operational pilots. It has formed a nucleus around which we have built our fighting machine. And that was, of course, Major General Frank Hunter, who's the chief of the 8th Fighter Command awarding medallions to pilots on the 4th of February, 1940. 43. Welcome to. We have ways of making you talk with me, Al Murray and James Holland for the second part of our series, Warbirds. Yes. The Mighty Fighting Fourth, Part two, or.
- [01:11]
B
The fabulous Fighting for.
- [01:12]
A
Fabulous Fighting Fourth. Why not? I mean, fantastic fighting for it. Those of you who listened to the last episode probably think this is all a bit on the nose, all a bit Hollywood. Scout's honor. This is what happened in it, Jim. And these are the people involved. So, yep, cool blokes with aviator sunglasses, square jaws. Square jaws. Hundreds of hours in their logbook. And the. I mean, I'm just thinking the havoc of them turning up in High Wycombe or somewhere like that and impressing the. Dazzling the locals, but there we are. So in the last episode, we took you through the three Eagle squadrons, which are now the 334th, 335th and 335th squadrons.
- [01:53]
B
36.
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A
36. So sixth. Sorry, four, five, six.
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B
So easy to get confused.
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A
So easy to get confused. In the 4th Fighter Group, the nascent US Army Air Force presence in. In the UK because 1942, obviously the Americans are gathering their skirts and have to have to get themselves to Britain and finally do and recover their pilots, some of whom, you know, didn't join the US Army Air Force initially because they thought that would involve twiddling their thumbs and no action. So you have a group of extremely motivated people here, and they're based in Debden, south of Cambridge. And what they've done is they've. They've changed their livery, basically, but they're. They're still the same organization, in effect. Changed their letterhead, changed their badges, got increased pay. Yeah. And they got more money to burn. Exactly.
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B
And they've got stakes, not bubble and squeak.
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A
I think it's a tragedy. I love bubbling squeak.
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B
So the 8th Air Force is originally established as 8 bomber command activated in January 1942, not in the UK, but in Savann Army Air Base in Georgia in the United States, which is one month after the bombing of Pearl harbor and the US entry into the war. So by this point, Don Gentile has Obviously joined. Joined 133 Eagle Squadron, Dwayne Beeson, Vic, France, Don Blakeslee, they're all part of the. They're about to be part of the Eagle Squadrons. And one month later, in February 1942, the eighth former command is transferred over to the UK and to high Wycombe in Buckinghamshire.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And headquarters established there at Wickham Abbey, which is the girls school and it's given a code name of Pine Tree. It's a huge, massive Gothic mansion surrounded by 250 acres of grounds. All the girls have been evacuated away and the grounds, you know, they've swapped lacrosse pitches for tents and, you know, jeep parks and what have you.
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A
Yeah.
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B
An eighth Bomber Command is redesignated as eighth Air Force and becomes known as the Mighty Eighth, of course. And we all know about that. Yeah, from Masters of the Air and all the rest of it.
- [03:56]
A
Well, we did a series at the time when Masters of the Air came out that. That is up. And what's going to happen is our producer JR is going to dive into the archive even as we speak and find which episodes there were so we can direct you to them as we go. What have they come to Britain to do, the 8th Air Force, though, Jim?
- [04:12]
B
Well, they're part of the Strategic Bombing Force. What they're actually going to be bombing sort of evolves over the course of 1942 and into the part of 1943. And they're very set on daylight precision bombing as opposed to nighttime bombing, which is what Bomber Command do. The whole point of the Strategic Air Force is to destroy the, or damage as much as possible the German ability to wage war. So this is strike their industrial heartland, strike their transportation network and all the rest of it. And there is a recognition even at this early stage that bombers need escorting, although there is confidence that these fortresses, flying fortresses, the B17s and the very heavily armoured B24 four engine heavy bombers, each with 1350 caliber machine guns, are going to be able to defend themselves. Because what you're going to do is you can fly over in a sort of defensive box. I mean, this is a recap of what we did in the, in, in the mighty eighth series, but just a reminder to people who haven't heard that you go over in a. In a formation in a box. Formation and together you've got sort of, you know, you haven't got 13 machine guns, you've got hundreds of them all firing 50 caliber machine guns. And the pre war expectation is that that is going to be enough. But even so, it is still believed there is going to be a role for the fighter escort as well. Yeah, but as it becomes clear that role is greater than as at first appreciated. But I think it's important to understand that in this, in 1942, this is very much a sort of embryonic 8th Air Force, which is why it's not until the end of September that the Eagle squadrons get switched over to the 8th Air Force, for example, and get Americanized and become part of what has now by this point become the US Army Air Force rather than the US Army Air Corps.
- [05:58]
A
If your mental image of the US 8th Air Force in action is like mass gigantic bomber formations of sort of glittering silver B17s, we are nowhere near there yet. This is small groups of khaki B17s that are still nowhere, that still don't have all the armament that's to come. There's the bomber men within the Air Force who are not just there to defeat the Germans, but to settle an argument within American military philosophy about how you can extend American power using and winning the war from the air with strategic bombing. And they come bundled with all the, you know, the bomb site that can put a, you know, bombing a pickle barrel on all this, the Norden bomb site, all this stuff. There are some, some lessons to be learned. The mistake in the end those people have made is that, is that fighter technology has easily kept pace with whatever bomber technology can do. And fighters are getting faster and faster and capable of operating higher and higher, which means they can dive on a bomber formation and attack before they're even spotted or noticed. Or you know, that the speeds have all increased, particularly of intercept of fighter aircraft interceptors. So they're going to have to find this out. And there's really only one way to find all this out. And that's unfortunately in combat, isn't it?
- [07:16]
B
That is the way. But, but again, just to reiterate in 1942, this is very, very small beer. You know, the 8th Air Force has, the embryonic 8th Air Force is coming over in trips and drabs we mentioned last episode. 97 heavy bomb bombardment Group. They go over, but almost immediately after they've arrived in England, they then get transferred to North Africa, you know, because that's where it's all going to be, you know. There's this shift, you know, originally they're all coming England because they're going to support, support the operations of the Cross Channel invasion, you know, and this is Sledgehammer and all the rest of it. Operation Sledgehammer then becomes, you know, they change tack and they decide, actually know what we're going to do is we're going to do an invasion of Northwest Africa instead. So a lot of what is earmarked for 8th Air Force in UK is then transported to the Mediterranean. But there is also this transition problem and they need air, they need airfields and they need airfields with proper runways, you know, tarmac runways, asphalted runways, but they've got to be built and they've got to be transferred from the RAF to the us so all this is a bit of a process. So, so 1942 is, is a, is a year of building up strength, then losing that strength to the Mediterranean and then building up strength again. But, but by the beginning of 1943 you've got the Casablanca conference and that is where Pirate Acha comes up with this idea of focusing the American daylight bombing efforts on the Luftwaffe. But I'm probably jumping the gun a little bit here.
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A
Yeah.
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B
8Th Fighter Command is also established in January 1942, but its initial mission is not in the UK. It's air defence over the north and central United States. And in February, the first unit is then deployed to the United Kingdom, first to the Charleston Army Airfield and then to RAF Bushy Hall. An 8th Fighter Command works alongside 8 Bomber Command as its designated bomber escort. And the 4th Fighter Group is finally, as we mentioned in the last episode, assigned to the A Fighter Command. The command structure of the embryonic 8th Air Force is Twohey Spots. Carl Twohey Spots General Spots who's one of the bomber men of the 1930s. Absolutely. Pioneering aviator in the, in US Air Force law. And also a really shrewd smart guy. And he's actually come over in September, August, September 1940 to observe the battle of Britain, realizes that actually the Luftwaffe aren't going to win. So he reports back very favorably, in sharp contrast to the then Ambassador Joe Kennedy who's saying, you know, the demon gloom. And Ira Aker, who is an old colleague of his and who is another of these bombermen and another of these pioneers of the, of the Army Air Corps, is the commanding officer of eight Bomber Command. So Spots, CEO of, of Ape Air Force Acre CEO of Apormer Command.
- [09:55]
A
One of the things the Americans are anticipating at this stage of the war is that they're going to invade Europe, aren't they? Which I think is, which I think is kind of interesting. And the troops, troops are coming to the UK from the beginning of 1942 in what's called Operation Bolero. The feeling is initially the Americans are going to go into, into northwest Europe. This is what they're going, this is where they're going to start this idea as well, that what you use is technology to do the job. And steel, not flesh, is the thing that we've talked about since the very beginning of this podcast, which is the idea that you use your industrial muscle to create machines that save lives. Eight guys or nine guys in a bomber aircraft can do far more damage than nine guys in an infantry section to the enemy. You enhance their strike power by putting them in a, in a plane that can fly to Germany, destroy its factories, its ball bearing plants, it's oil processing plants, it's Messersmith factories or whatever.
- [10:52]
B
And I think it's worth saying, I think it's worth saying that, that, you know, America is traumatized by the experience of the First World War as well. I mean, their casualties are, you know, pretty high. And there is a feeling that, you know, they also, like the British, don't want to have the same kind of bloodbath of infantrymen going over the top, you know, so, so they're very wedded, as the British are, to this, this concept of using technology, modernity, industrial muscle, all the rest of it, machinery to do a lot of the hard yards for you. Why wouldn't you try mentioning that to the, to the Soviet Union?
- [11:21]
A
Well, yes, but, exactly. But when you, so when you come to these arguments about who, who did all the fighting and who did that lifting and all this sort of thing and all the, the German army soldier fought in a way where he was, you know, redoubtable, fought for the death unnecessarily, usually. I mean, you know, because the, because the people giving the orders were unable to make sound tactical strategic decisions because the guy in charge wouldn't let them. You know, whereas what you've got here is a, is a process that also leans into your strengths. The Americans are leaning into their industrial strength. They're not, they're not going, well, we haven't got, what are we going to use our factories for in this war effort of ours? You know, it's, it's, it's also, you know what I mean? It's also obvious you played, you play to your strength if you possibly can. And this is what, this is what it's all about what the Americans bring with them though, is this sort of absolute thrusting can do. They also bring with them the fact that in a year's time there will be much more stuff, that it's coming, that the stuff is coming. So what they need to do is figure out how they're going to go about things, figure out their doctrine, figure out their methods, and then when the stuff arrives, they'll be able to absolutely deliver a hammer blow. That's what's, that's what's going on. And they, and they know they need mass, but they know it's coming too. So there is this peculiar period where they aren't delivering the results that they've got in mind, but actually what they're doing is figuring out their way towards it completely.
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B
Spots an Acre don't actually arrive in England until the summer of 1942. So this is sort of indicative, I think, of the kind of. It's a process. You can't just sort of snap your fingers and suddenly you're in England fully formed. This is a real old process. But then of course there's Operation Torch, which is the invasion of the joint Anglo US invasion of Northwest Africa. And that changes everything because suddenly they need all these aircraft and they need some of these commanders over in Africa. And Spots gets promoted to theater commander and Acre takes over as Commander in chief of the 8th Air Force. There are plenty of challenges for Acre because the cream of the supplies is now going to the Mediterranean rather than to England. You know, the build up is not as fast as he would like. I don't think it's any bad thing because don't forget at this stage in the back end of 1942, Bomber Harris, who has taken over as Commander in chief of Bomber Command in February 1942, is having a year of transition. And his all out strategic air campaign, the one that we're all familiar with, of Lancaster's flying in silhouette over the burning destruction of the Ruhr industrial heartland of Germany that doesn't get launched till the beginning of March 1943.
- [14:07]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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B
So get your heads out of this idea that that is all happening right from the outset. It isn't, you know, bombing up until that point is a little bit ad hoc with the odd sort of, you know, showpiece, such as the thousand bomber raids over Cologne in the end of May 1942, just to sort of get the ball rolling. But it's a year of transition, a year of buildup for Bomber Command. It's also a year of transition, a year of buildup for the 8th Air Force. And what that means is that Aker can take his time to build up his forces, build up his troops and also build up a strategy, which is the important thing. And by the Casablanca compass, as we already mentioned, he started to come up with this, which is that actually what their daylight bombing really needs to do is focus on the German aircraft industry. So attacking assembly plants, parts such as ball bearing parts, as you mentioned earlier on, and trying to draw the Luftwaffe fighter force up into battle as much as they possibly can. Because the moment they've got rid of the Luftwaffe, their job of bombing other industrial targets becomes easier. Because the greatest threat to bombers and indeed other fighter planes are fighters, not anti aircraft guns.
- [15:16]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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B
And this is absolutely bang on the money. And this, this, this eventually finds its, its maturation, for want of a better phrase, in Operation Point Blank, which is signed off in June 1943.
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A
Basically the bomber forces allow themselves through the Point Blank directive, allow themselves to get on with doing things the way they want to give themselves an operational blank check, don't they? Which is what you need because you still don't know how to do it. Quite. You know, you got to find out what works and get used to the, just the weather over northwest Europe if nothing else, because how many clear days are there?
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B
Yes, not very many. Yeah, yes, particularly in winter, you know, etc. Etc. How precise can we be when there's 10 times cloud, you know, etc. Ett. So you know, don't forget this is all brand new. The Americans haven't done daylight precision bombing before until 1942. The conditions in the Mediterranean, blue skies, clear skies, not much, much less cloud and all the rest of it. And, and you don't have quite the same extent of civilian conurbations that you do in a mass in Nazi Germany, for example. You know, they're different flying and operational conditions, you know, and it's different operating a bomber out of a desert in Algeria than it is out of a damp kind of East Anglia in, in England in the back end of 1942, beginning of 1943. So as you say, they've got to work all this stuff out. And also I think the point about Point Blank is that Point Blank makes the priority of operations the Luftwaffe. Yeah, but it's not the exclusive no target because there's going to be times where you can't go to Schweitfurt or you can't go and hit bomber factories or whatever. And so in between all that there is Shorter distance targets in Bremen or northern France, you know, which is all kind of part of the parcel of this undermining the German war machine, attacking their modes of transportation, supply lines and. And all the rest of it. But meanwhile, what is going on with the embryonic 4th fighter group?
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A
After all, Jim, that's what this series is about.
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B
No, I think we've done our bomb a bit now we can park it, we can move on.
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A
We've done the recap, a grand strategy and all that sort of thing. Let's just not mention the Casablanca conference again. Let's just. Just give ourselves.
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B
We're done with it.
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A
We're done with it. They've been flying Spitfires, these guys, and they absolutely love them. Right. The Spitfire is. It's the cream of the crop, isn't it? But the US Army Air Force has got plans of its own for which aircraft it wants to use. And the P47 Thunderbolts in are brought in to replace the Spitfire. This is because the Thunderbolt has much longer legs. The Spitfire can only really get to Paris or Brussels for all its refined agility and its, you know, perfect fighter handling.
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B
Yes.
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A
It just can't go the distance. And if you're gonna. If you're gonna do fighter escort or bomber escort, rather, you need to be able to. You need to get further.
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B
These P47s are beasts, aren't they? They're absolute beasts. You know, they're seven tons. They're known as a jug.
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A
You're swapping out a horse for a rhino is what you're doing. You're swapping out an Arabian thoroughbit bread for a rhinoceros. It probably goes fast if you, if you dig your heels in, but it'll run you over.
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B
It's. It's very fast. It has got elliptical wings. So there's a little bit of a nod to the, to the Spitfire there. But it's got this huge Pratt and Whitney radial engine up. Up front. It's got a bubble canopy.
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A
Yeah.
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B
It's made by Republic. It's a pretty good plane. Designed by Alexander Cartwhaily, who is a. A man of Georgian descent come over from the pogroms back in the kind of latter days of the. Of the 19th century.
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A
Wow.
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B
And takes over the P35, which had already been earlier developed by a Russian immigrant, another Russian immigrant named Alexander P. De Seversk.
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A
Right.
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B
I think he's right. I'm a big fan of the P47.
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A
I know you are, but. Well, because it's. Is it brute force and Ignorance, kind of. I mean, the thing is, is they don't want to deploy them initially, do they? Because it's risky trying a new air, a new type over France in hostile conditions. You know, you've had the Morlay disaster in September the previous year. The idea, they need to be kept from the Germans. Pilot responds, tell the Jerry's. Humph.
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B
They'll know.
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A
Know it soon enough when they see us crashing all over the place. And the pilots in the fourth don't like them to start with. They call them milk bottles because they think they're ugly. It's interesting, isn't it? But In April of 1943, Blakesley takes the 336th Squadron out on an escort with Thunderbolts over France and Belgium.
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B
Yes, and I think it's point to say that he is still the commander of what was 133 and is now the 336. And I think it's also worth pointing out that of all the people that dislike the Thunderbolt, Blakeslee is the one that dislikes him the most.
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A
Yeah, of course. Why change? Why? Yeah, it ain't broke. Don't fix it. Blakesley and nine other Thunderbolts spot three FW 190s and pounce on them at 23,000ft. He dives down to only 500ft. Blakesley opens fire on one of the Focke Wulfs and the pilot tries to bail out, is too low, and the plane crashes. And this is the first recorded win for a P47. And it's Blakesley, inevitably. Yeah, ever, of course, that does it. I know. And this is a guy that hates the plane, and he's gone and shot someone down on his first encounter. I mean, it's very strong, isn't it? Again, the film script, it's a little overwritten, Jim. There's a little bit too much cliche in it back at the base.
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B
Well, okay, you be Blakesley, I'll be Jim Goodson. So you can picture it, can't you? So they touch back down at Debton. Blakesy, you know, gets out of the cob and slides off the wing, stomps back with a cigarette in his mouth, looking grumpy towards the dispersal. And Jim Goodson comes up to him and says, I told you the jug could dive. And Blakesley says, it damn well ought.
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A
To be able to dive. It sure as hell can't climb. Come on.
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B
And Blakesley is promoted to the xo, the executive office, second in command of the four Fighter Group soon after, but only on the condition that he can continue combat blood. So they all recognize his leadership skills. They all recognize that he's the man. Everyone looks up to him, that he's brilliant and inspiration all the rest of it. But they want him in a higher leadership role. But he's only going to do it if he can fly. So he's starting to get venerated throughout the entire eighth airports, I think. Even if he's, I mean the interesting thing about him is his shooting is poor, he's not a good marksman, that's funny. But he, he is brilliant at controlling a battle. That's the interesting thing, that you don't have ground controllers over Europe. So what they're discovering is unlike the RAF in Fighter Command in the summer of 1940, where your ground controller is controlling you effectively, you need someone to take command and organize it. And he has this incredible ability to see what everyone else is doing, keep calm, not panic, and just be able to sort of clearly assess what is going on, visualize everything. Yeah. And you know, that's just an unbelievable skill which very, very few people, people have. So you know, frankly, who cares about his, his shooting skills also? He never, he never adorns his, his planes with swastikas for shooting anyone down. He never puts a name, he Never gives it Ms. Dallas or you know, little girl or you know, whatever it might be, a flying Frog or whatever.
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A
And his thing is to, is to make sure there's camaraderie, there's zeal, there's adventure, there's spirit. When the mess secretary complains about pilots smashing glasses, he says good show, shows their spirit. That's got to be a little bit of the RAF still in him. His time in fighter command where he knows that get a beer in him and get him, get him happy is the way, is the way to go.
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B
Well, we've mentioned a few characters, haven't we? Should we take a break?
- [23:20]
A
Let's take a break and then we'll come back to some of these characters and then look at how they get on and triumph and disaster. We'll see you in a ticket. Lifelock, how can I help? The IRS said I filed my return, but I haven't. One in four tax paying Americans has paid the price of identity fraud.
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B
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B
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A
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A
I'll be with you Every step of the way. One is four was a fraud paying American. Not anymore. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com podcast Terms apply Welcome back to we have ways to make you talk with me, Al Murray and James Holland. Well, we've, we've look, we've looked at the arrival of the Thunderbolt. So that's the gear. Let's look at some of more of these, some more of these people who have been sent to us direct by United Talent Agency casting. I mean, it's completely ridiculous.
- [24:26]
B
Timothee Chalamet is Kid Hofer.
- [24:28]
A
I know. I mean he is, isn't he?
- [24:30]
B
Of course he is. Yeah. So we've had Dom Blakesley, we've had Jim Goodson, we've had Vic France. Yeah, we've had Don Gentile. Now we're going to introduce Kid Hofer. So Kid Hofer is, is someone again, cut from the same cloth as some of these other guys. Ralph K. Kid Hofer, he's an American who joins the Forth at Debdham in September 1943 when he's still only age 22. He's. This guy's born on a farm in Salem, Missouri in 1921. He's athletic, he's a boxer as a young boy and moves to Chicago in the 1930s and he has some successes in amateur tournaments. So he's sporty, he's physical. In 1940, returns to Missouri to take up a civilian role at Fort Leonard Wood, which is an army training base. He's not too enamored of the army and he's aspirations still to become a prize fighter. And then he's hard as a, as a driver to deliver a new Hudson car from, from a factory to his buyer on the west coast in California. And the factory is going to pay his travel expenses in return. So whilst he's waiting for the car in Michigan, he makes a day trip over the border to Windsor, Ontario and he crosses the Detroit river and is directed to the Royal Canadian Air Force recruiting office by an immigration office, assumes he's in Canada to join the Air Force. And Hofer goes along with this and thinks, actually, I don't want to be a prize fighter. I don't want to drive this truck to California. I'm going to be an aviator instead.
- [25:58]
A
But first of all, Jim, the idea that the immigration officer goes, oh, it's another guy who wants to join the Canadian Air Force. Oh yeah, okay. He's so used to it.
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B
But you know, this is, this is presumably this is the autumn of 1941, yes. So I suppose they're still not. They're still not in the war at this point.
- [26:15]
A
No.
- [26:16]
B
Anyway, he's unlike Gentile and Blakeslee and others, he's got no aviation experience at all, but absolutely throws himself into the training in Canada. Absolutely loves it. Proves himself to be really, really good and is posted to England in October 1942. Are still part of the RCAF, the Royal Canadian Air Force. He continues his training in the uk, but he's absolutely desperate to get into combat and the opportunities seem quite scarce. He's still on sort of Ender's training runs, so eventually he managed to transfer to the United States army air Force in June 1943. And, you know, by this time, of course, he's accrued a fair chunk of flying hours, so he needs to undertake yet more training to get him up to speed with the Thunderbolt. And then in September, he joins the 4th Fighter Group at Debton with the 334th Squadron. Nicknames his plane the Salem Representative after his hometown. He's one of his others with a, you know, with these sort of outsized personalities.
- [27:16]
A
Yeah.
- [27:16]
B
And he's a terrific. A terrific character. And everyone just calls him the Kid.
- [27:20]
A
His first combat mission is 8th October 1943, where 4th Fighter Group is escorting B17s to Bremen. They're going off to bomb Bremen. And because he's new, he's assigned as the wingman to Captain James Clark. He's tasked with covering his leader, keeping out an eye out for enemy planes and sticking in formation. However, over the Netherlands, the Kid loses the rest of his squadron when enemy aircraft start attacking the Thunderbolts. And he says, we were ordered to break because we were coming down into position above and behind us. I flicked and spun down coming out west of Zwala, then does his own thing and lands back alone in Debton. And he's one of the last to return from that sortie. And the ground crewman noticed that the tape covering the muzzles of his machine guns, because they would tape over the whole of whether guns would fire.
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B
Yeah. It's worth saying that the Thunderbolt has eight.50 caliber machine guns.
- [28:14]
A
Yeah, yeah. It's properly tooled up, isn't it? Oh, that means he's used his guns in combat. And that's very unusual for someone on their first mission. And I. He wants to fight. He's a fighter. This guy's a. I mean, again, it's just ridiculous. One of these people is. Is a boxer. I mean, this. So the casting in this is it's just too on the nose, Jim.
- [28:38]
B
It's absolutely ridiculous.
- [28:39]
A
He gets separated for the group, he sees a 109 chasing another thunderbolt. So he thinks, well, all right, better do something about that. Before I could close, I saw the ME109 fire. Smoke came from the P47, which is turned down to the right. From 1,000ft altitude, I was following the ME109, closing fast to about 100 yards, opened fire and saw strikes and flashes on the enemy aircraft. I had to shove the stick forward, keep from ramming him as he turned over and went down into a steep dive. Oil on my windscreen prevented me from seeing any more. So he's got right up the guy's grill and shot him down.
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B
But what's amazing is the intelligence office.
- [29:14]
A
Going, yeah, right, yeah, yeah, because made this up.
- [29:17]
B
This, this is the kind of thing you do when you've had 25 missions under your belt.
- [29:22]
A
Yeah.
- [29:23]
B
You know, you see one of your buddies in trouble, you peel off, you go, yeah, hurtling after it. Yeah. I mean, the scale of self confidence to do that, you can't stress it enough. So they're all just going, well, that's absolutely Bonnet. This guy is a first rate bullshit artist. And then they check his camera footage and he's absolutely spot on. They can see him just absolutely going right up the backside of his 109 and there. And off it peels off.
- [29:50]
A
Brilliant.
- [29:51]
B
There's another great who comes in at this point is John Godfrey. He's one of my absolute favorites. And again, he's, he's. I mean, you know, he'd have been played by Lee Marvin. Okay, so he's got quite long hair and he's got little sideburns.
- [30:05]
A
Right.
- [30:06]
B
He's got a big quiff. He looks like a sort of. He actually looks like a sort of pre. Elvis.
- [30:10]
A
Elvis, right.
- [30:12]
B
You know, it's absolutely amazing. He's raised in Rhode island, never interested in school or college. He's very sort of laconic and droll. Tries to run away from home twice, age 18, to join the Canadian Army. Caught and retrieved by his parents both times. Finally, his parents strike a deal. They say, okay, you can go to Canada to become a pilot, but if you fail, you've got to come back home and go to college. And he goes, okay, fair enough. So only a few weeks into training, his parents travel up to Canada to tell him that his brother Reginald, an aircraft technician, has been torpedoed and drowned by the Germans whilst on a ship on his way to England. And he's devastated by this. But, but absolutely magnifies whatever already smoldering resentment he has for the Germans, for the crowds, and he takes it back into his Air Force service. So he's eventually shipped over to, to the UK, joins 336, which of course is 133 with John Don Gentile, who becomes his great buddy. Gentile and John Godfrey, they're like soul mates. And he paints Reggie's reply onto the side of his Thunderbolt in honor of his brother. He becomes one of the greatest of the Allied aces. I mean this guy is absolutely gun.
- [31:27]
A
Again.
- [31:27]
B
He wears, he tends to kind of go for the kind of slightly tapered trousers and, and you know, heeled boots and all the rest of it. I mean he's a, he's a very, very cool, good looking dude, it has to be said.
- [31:41]
A
Another one, yet another one.
- [31:43]
B
But there's another development, isn't there, in the summer of 1943?
- [31:46]
A
Well, yes, because, because, you know, I mean this, as we said earlier earlier on is that basically what's going on is they're working it out, they're finding the limitations of their kit, they're developing their own doctrine as well. Now they're not part of the raf, they're figuring out their own way of doing things. So they're sweeping over Europe, sometimes escorting bombers, sometimes they go out just to pick a fight basically, if they're not with bombers, but the Germans are. The Germans are smart to that and can read the radar and the observations as to exactly what, exactly what the Americans are cooking up. They're not going to, they're not going to spend fighters on fighting fighters. It's bombers that count. But although those sorties don't really amount to any combat, it's good for the, it's good to find out, it's good experience. Obviously the more hours you have in the cockpit, the better in your logbook. It's better, it's for the engineers discover the limitations of the airframes and so on. And all this time American strength is growing and the Germans essentially start to give up the French coast because once you start bombing Germany effectively, you have to defend Germany. France is, is a luxury. Defending France is a luxury.
- [32:57]
B
Yep.
- [32:57]
A
However, what the, so what the Germans are doing is waiting for the escort, for the Allied escort fighters to turn around and go home because they're out of fuel or they're out of range and then attacking the bomber formations and with great success. It has to be said that they're really, it's really working because as we said earlier in the episode. The interceptor fighter is now at a state where even a great big hedgehog of bombers with machine guns, heavy caliber machine guns, can't really do anything about being ambushed and bounced. It could shoot the odd plane down, but it's just too difficult, isn't it? It's really darn hard, however, because this is a period of development and innovation. 8th Fighter Command comes up with something which is the drop tank, which is known as the baby.
- [33:40]
B
Yes.
- [33:41]
A
Which is a great big fuel tank to stick underneath the Thunderbolt. Made of. Made of sort of mdf.
- [33:46]
B
That's right, yeah.
- [33:48]
A
There's an English company that gets the contract to do very well out of it.
- [33:51]
B
But of course, this is also part of the. Part of a bigger problem that the Americans are having, which is, is that daylight precision bombing, A, isn't as precise as they think it's going to be.
- [33:58]
A
Yeah.
- [33:58]
B
And B, that they're. These Flying Fortresses aren't quite the Fortresses that they think they're going to be.
- [34:03]
A
No.
- [34:03]
B
And there's a couple of times, first of all, famously, or infamously, on the 17th of August 1943.
- [34:09]
A
Yeah.
- [34:09]
B
Where they go over to Schweinberg and they go absolutely hammered. And they lose 60 planes shot down.
- [34:13]
A
Yeah.
- [34:14]
B
And, you know, out of 324 or whatever it is.
- [34:17]
A
Yeah.
- [34:17]
B
And then they have a second session in the autumn of 19 in October, because it takes them all this time to build up the strength again to give another crack. And they have this terrible week of sequence of operations which culminates on Black Thursday, which is the 14th of October 1943, where again, they get absolutely hammered. And what becomes absolutely clear is you cannot send in these bombers without fighter escorts. But there isn't a fighter plane that's capable of going as far as some of the deepest, into the Reich armaments factories that they need to hit. So what are you going to do? So this is where these babies, these. These drop tanks come in. And to start off with, they're just putting them on whatever they've got, which is Thunderbolts. But of course, they need another solution. They need something else which is going to go further, much further than a Thunderbolt can. The Thunderbolt is better than a Spitfire, but it's still not as good as it needs to be.
- [35:13]
A
Yeah.
- [35:13]
B
But it still gets these. These drop tanks do get them a little bit further than they were going without them.
- [35:18]
A
Inevitably, the pilots in the fourth don't like them the way they didn't like the Thunderbolts. They don't like Change these guys do. They don't. Hey, we know what we're doing. We don't need your help. It's all that, isn't it? And there's not much clearance between the fuel tank and the Runway because they're so big. And so the pilots think that this, basically, this is an effort to kill them, don't they? They try them for the first time in combat on the 28th of July. This is the first time any fighter aircraft has been ordered to fly beyond France and into Germany.
- [35:48]
B
28 of July, 1943. What have they been doing?
- [35:50]
A
Possibly a big game changer, though. And the Thunderbolts rendezvous with the bombers over Emmerich and they discover that the bombers are being attacked by something like 51 90s Focke Wulf 190s and Ju 88s, which is interesting because that. That illustrates, doesn't it, actually, how slow the B17s are going if they're vulnerable to fighter bombers, which is what a Ju80 is, really. That's the gap, isn't it, in terms of what the Germans can use to intercept? And suddenly, though, I mean, again, we're Hollywood here. You're in one of those B17s and you go, oh, my God, they're all over us. What are we going to do, Skipper?
- [36:26]
B
The Krauts are all over us.
- [36:28]
A
Exactly. Suddenly, led by Captain Spike Miley, the Thunderbolts swarm down out of the sun onto the enemy aircraft and shoot down nine Germans. It's clear that they've caught the Germans out with this, haven't they? Germans don't know. Why would they, you know, 8th Fighter Command, quite wisely, is not yet publicized that they can get to Germany.
- [36:46]
B
Germany.
- [36:46]
A
The Germans are caught with their trousers down on this occasion, which must have been incredibly heartening for the bomber crews to actually see that happen. Yeah, word would get round quickly, wouldn't it?
- [36:56]
B
So then, on the 16th of August, thunderbolts are escorting bombers over Paris and they come up against a German aircraft again and the sky's completely clear and the Parisians can't tell exactly what's happening above, but they can. They can hear piercing sounds of aircraft diving and swerving and American machine guns and German cannons. And sometimes planes dive low around the Eiffel Tower and occasional pieces of aircraft plummet down onto Paris. Smoking and flaming swastikas can be faintly seen on the fragments of the plane. So, you know, what a cheering sight, or rather alarming one at the same time. Sometimes, you know, aircraft fall onto Paris less innocuously and Major Don Young shoots down a plane that crashes into a block of flats. And he recalls, I saw a 190 as it approached the forts from 9o'.
- [37:39]
A
Clock.
- [37:40]
B
And as I went into a shallow dive and close to 200 yards, Juan, then close to 75 yards, seeing strikes and pieces flying from the 190, it rolled over and went into a spiral dive for about a thousand feet, and then into a violent spin with large pieces flying off. They crashed in a ball of flame in a square of houses. And Blakesley, Dom Blakesly circling above the action over Paris, at the same time directing the battle. You know, this is part of this new tactic that Fighter Command have been developing. And the Thunderbolts are starting. You know, they're doing really well against the Focke Wolves. And this particular mission achieves a new record for the European theater of operations. 18 German aircraft destroyed and only one lost.
- [38:23]
A
Amazing.
- [38:23]
B
So guess what there is that night at Debton.
- [38:27]
A
The Milky Bars are on Dom Blakeslee, aren't they? It's free beer.
- [38:32]
B
Free beer all night.
- [38:34]
A
Again, this extraordinary cast of characters. So Don Gentile, he's made a flight commander of 334th because he's got 15 months experience of operational flying under his belt.
- [38:44]
B
It's a huge amount, isn't it?
- [38:46]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And he replaces Spike Miley, the aforementioned Spike Miley, who on 28 July led that surprise attack on the German fighters. He's finished his toys, going home. But before he leaves, he says to.
- [39:01]
B
Gentil, yes, Miley takes him aside, doesn't he? Takes him aside and gives him a little kind of pep talk. I mean, you know, remember, these guys are like 24.
- [39:09]
A
He's obviously run by his writer, producer and director before he says it. I mean, listen. Listen to this, all right? You are red hot. And it's natural. You should want to be a firecracker over there. But you got boys following you now who have things to learn before they get red hot. They're gonna follow you wherever you take them. Remember that. Whenever you take them anywhere, it's not only your brains that are gonna get knocked out, but the brains of kids who are depending on you. I mean.
- [39:40]
B
I mean, that's straight out of Tap Gun, isn't it?
- [39:42]
A
I know, I know completely. And I know we. We have expressed great admiration on this podcast for the stoicism of the bit of a rum do. That was a little hairy, old chap. All that. The British way of doing things. But this, this isn't Stoicism this is, this is the, the American remix of that, isn't it? Which is, you know, it's just fantastic. Fantastic.
- [40:02]
B
It's completely brilliant, you know. And so the point is, of course, is that up until this point, Gentiles had, you know, he's just looking after himself, basically.
- [40:11]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [40:11]
B
You know, he doesn't have to look after anyone else, but now he's got responsibility, he's got duty. But. But at the same time, you know, what you see in the autumn of 1943 is this incredible contrast between Bomber Command and a fighter command. You know, these fighters that are creme de la creme, they're skilled, they're passionate, they're hugely experienced, a lot of them. But, you know, this is the point, the autumn of 1943, where crisis is about to descend. You know, we already touched on this. You know, there's technological change which is needed, but there's also tactical change which is needed because this just ain't working. You can have the odd day where, you know, you're shooting down 18 to 1 over Paris or whatever, but for the most part, 8th Air Force in the autumn of 1943 is facing a huge crisis. A crisis of morale, a crisis of confidence, a crisis of ideas. Because underpinning all of this operations is Operation Overlord D Day. And that can only be possible if the Allies command the skies over not just Normandy, but a big sway of northwest Europe. Forgive me for repeating myself for those who've heard earlier episodes, but that's because the moment you land on the beaches of Normandy, the cat is out of the bag. And then it's a race between which side can build up men and material fastest.
- [41:29]
A
Yeah, you need control of the sky. And also if you're, say, destroying tank engine factories at the same time, they can bring less tanks to the front.
- [41:39]
B
Yeah, exactly. But the main task is to slow down the abilities of the Germans to reinforce the bridgehead in Normandy. Yeah, and you do that by destroying their transportation network. You do that by destroying bridges, marshalling yards and all the rest of it. But you can only do that by precision bombing. That really, that is non negotiable. That has to be precision bombing. So you can only do that with medium bombers operating at very low levels. But you can only do that if you haven't got Focke Wulf and Messerschmitts ready to pounce above you. And that means destroying the aircraft industry as well as the fighters in the end. But that isn't working in the autumn of 1943. And the clock is ticking and time is running out. So what are you going to do? That's where they're at at the moment. And so you've had the Schweinfeld raid, you've had the Schweinfeld Regensburg raid. You've had, had this, this crisis in October 1943, and the bombers are getting destroyed. You have the fighters, fighter pilots who are extremely experienced, incredibly gung ho, incredibly good at what they're doing, but they haven't got the right plane and the Thunderbolt. For all the successors of the 4th Fighter Group and other key fighter groups like Zemka's 56th Fighter Group, they're not doing enough. And that's what needs to change the.
- [42:47]
A
Scale of the disaster. On the second Schweinfurt raid, you know, as you said earlier, 60 aircraft lost of 219. You can't keep that show on the road. That is not a rate of attrition you can deal with at all. And a further 138 damage to varying degrees. Seven are written off on return. 600 men killed or captured. That can't carry on. You cannot continue with that.
- [43:11]
B
No, we can't.
- [43:12]
A
And it's plain that they need a fighter that can follow the bombers anywhere it's going to go. And what we won't do is tell you just yet what it might be. But I'm sure many of you have an idea.
- [43:26]
B
But I think it's fair to say that the fourth Fighter Group is going to be absolutely key to the next phase in this air war.
- [43:37]
A
And what I will say about the episode that's to come is I know many of you have been enjoying greatly how much James likes the people involved and the characters involved in these last two episodes.
- [43:47]
B
But hold, hold on to your horses.
- [43:49]
A
Hold onto your horses because there's. There's an airplane coming that basically we're gonna need. He's gonna need a cold water.
- [43:57]
B
I'm rubbing my showers. I'm rubbing my face.
- [44:01]
A
He's gonna need a cold shower. I'm gonna need a cold shower. We're all gonna need a cold shower after the next. Next episode, in fact, listen to the next episode. Yes, In a cold shower. That's my advice.
- [44:12]
B
And if you want, or else the excitement levels of a combination of these Hollywood heroes, these amazing fighter pilots and the plane involved is just gonna be too much.
- [44:25]
A
So thanks for listening, everyone. If you. If you're hot to trot. If you're hott o go, I'd hot to go and want to to get these thrills right now. Then subscribe to our Patreon Become a patron where live casts as well as other as well as other cold shower thrills are available. Subscribe to the Apple Podcast channel Officer Class and listen ad free and and rush on to the sound of James Holland getting his kicks. Ladies and gentlemen, we'll see you very soon.
- [44:52]
B
Thanks for listening. Fantastic stuff.
- [44:54]
A
Cheerio.
- [44:55]
B
Cheerio.
- [44:57]
A
Sa.