375. Heated Rivalry, Hockey, and How Good Sex Ed Can Change the World

Summary

Podcast Summary

You Are Not Broken – Episode 375: Heated Rivalry, Hockey, and How Good Sex Ed Can Change the World
Host: Dr. Kelly Casperson, MD
Guests: Dr. Rachel Rubin, Dr. Ashley Winter, Dr. Joshua Gonzalez
Date: June 14, 2026

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Episode Overview

Dr. Kelly Casperson and three fellow urologists dive into their mutual obsession with the hit TV series Heated Rivalry, analyzing its portrayal of sexuality, intimacy, and relationships from both personal and professional perspectives. This marks the first in a planned six-episode deep-dive into the show. The discussion blends humor, personal anecdotes, and medical expertise, with a focus on how media like Heated Rivalry can inform conversations about sex ed, sexual identity, and desire across the lifespan.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Allure and Impact of Heated Rivalry

• Universal Appeal: All guests emphasize how the show resonates with a wide demographic, crossing age, orientation, and gender. Dr. Rubin shares that she prescribes the show to her patients as "Heated Rivalry therapy." (02:50)

  “Whether they're 20s, 40s, 60s, 70s, everyone's getting Heated Rivalry as a prescription.” – Dr. Rachel Rubin (02:23)

• Emotional Resonance: The panel discusses how the show's combination of intense sexual chemistry and genuine emotional connection is "deliciously wonderful" and "joyful." (03:14)

• Parasocial Relationships: They recognize the strong parasocial attachments viewers develop to the characters, sometimes overshadowing real-life relationships. (06:07)

Authenticity and Representation of Gay Sex

• Accurate Depiction? Dr. Rubin queries whether the show portrays “gay sex as written by a woman” or true gay sex, prompting Dr. Gonzalez to assess the show's realism—including the lack of lubricant and explicit preparation details. (05:08–06:07)

  “There’s not a lot of references to lubricant… Shane is just, like, ready to go.” – Dr. Joshua Gonzalez (05:13)

• Media Context: The group notes how rare it is for mainstream media to depict explicit gay intimacy, and how this novelty increases both the titillation and validation for viewers (06:07).

Gender, Identification, and the Power of Story

• Women reportedly identify deeply with the emotional arcs of male characters—even wishing to experience the characters' passion "as those two guys." (04:17)

• Heterosexual men’s reactions vary widely, often correlating with comfort in their own sexuality. (07:46)

Personal Journeys into the Obsession

• Each host shares their “gateway” into Heated Rivalry, often referencing FOMO, professional curiosity, and peer pressure among urologist colleagues. (08:07–13:33)

  “Rachel said, I won't be your friend anymore… I wouldn't ask if it wasn't fundamentally important to your job as a doctor and someone who says they care about sexual medicine.” – Dr. Kelly Casperson (11:46 & 11:50)

Erotica vs. Porn vs. Romance

• The panel debates whether the series qualifies as erotica, porn, or explicitly depicted romance. Dr. Winter distinguishes the explicit language and visual restraint of the show from the more flowery, bodice-ripper feel of its source novels. (14:17–15:39)

• Explicit language is praised for its directness; visual storytelling in the series is lauded for conveying emotion and consent without dialogue. (15:16–16:37)

Consent and Power Dynamics

• The show is noted for its sophisticated, nuanced depiction of consent—notably in the silent buildup of sexual tension (locker room, gym scenes). (24:30–26:44)

• The panel unpacks how traditional gender roles invert or dissolve in the series, with two men negotiating emotional vulnerability and power in ways rarely seen in heterosexual romance media. (16:37, 45:01–46:29)

Sex Education—What’s Missing & What Matters

• Lack of Gay Sex Ed: Dr. Gonzalez lays out the complete absence of gay sex education, with most learning occurring through porn, trial and error, and peer discussion. (34:13)

  “Gay sex ed is like porn that you watch when you're younger, trying to, like, figure it out the first time you have anal sex…” – Dr. Joshua Gonzalez (34:13)

• Practical Advice: The panel provides practical details on anal sex prep, debunking myths and discussing douching, lubricant, and safety in detail. (36:07–38:53)

  “You really just need to use enough solution or water to clean out the rectum, which is not that long of a tube.” – Dr. Joshua Gonzalez (37:41)

• Normalizing Conversations: The group encourages open, shame-free discussion about sex acts, anatomy, and pleasure—pointing out the taboos women in particular face. (36:16–39:20)

Gender, Libido, and Desire—Insights from Urologists

• The conversation often loops back to how Heated Rivalry challenges preconceptions about desire, libido, dominance, and emotional expression for both men and women across orientations.

• The importance of both butt aesthetics and communication (including the role of intimacy coordinators in film/television) is discussed humorously but with clinical insight. (40:07–41:56)

Scene Breakdowns & Emotional Highs

• The group meticulously analyzes key scenes in Episode 1, focusing on cinematography, emotional beats, and character motivation, including:

  • The first sexual encounters (Room 1410, shower, gym biking)
  • Locker room dynamics and the anxiety of male nudity (28:33–30:12)
  • The complexity of Shane’s relationship with Rose and the heartbreak of queer/straight friendships (21:35–23:37)

• Humorous side notes reveal “inside baseball” about their own lives as doctors, gymnasts, and surgeons (30:03–31:19).

Episode 1 Cliffhanger & Power Shifts

• The panel unpacks in detail the climactic rooftop scene and the power shifts, emotional wounds, and narrative setup for future episodes. (49:49–52:18)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “Is it gay sex or is it gay gay sex written by a woman of what we want gay sex to be like?” – Dr. Rachel Rubin (04:48)
• “Women are often the emotional support animals for their straight husbands… Here [in the show] were two men having to figure out the emotional connection.” – Dr. Rachel Rubin (15:40)
• “The act of choosing that role is the feminist part of it.” – Dr. Joshua Gonzalez, on dominance/submission in sex (46:24)
• “You can be a badass everywhere else, and it's okay to play this role in the bedroom.” – Dr. Kelly Casperson (46:05)
• “They have very pronounced anterior pelvic tilt.” – Dr. Ashley Winter sharing a colleague’s pelvic PT perspective on the show's actors (41:06)
• "Butts are very important. Gays have known this for years." – Dr. Joshua Gonzalez (40:26–40:30)

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Important Timestamps

• 02:23 – "Heated Rivalry therapy" as prescription for low libido
• 06:07 – On women's identification with characters and parasocial relationships
• 14:17–15:39 – Explicit language, romance vs. erotica
• 24:30–26:44 – Shower scene, depiction of consent and arousal
• 34:13 – The absence of gay sex ed
• 36:07–38:53 – Practical details on douching and anal sex
• 45:01–46:29 – Confident personas vs. intimate vulnerability; power swap in intimacy
• 49:49–52:18 – Episode 1 conclusion cliffhanger debrief (rooftop scene & power dynamics)

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Tone and Language

The tone is irreverent, upbeat, candid, and deeply knowledgeable, mixing clinical authority, cultural commentary, and playful banter. The panelists are relatable and jargon is explained clearly for a lay audience.

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Conclusion

This episode offers an in-depth, entertaining, and medically informed discussion of Heated Rivalry—a cultural touchstone shaping conversations on sex, identity, and intimacy. The hosts blend personal confession, professional expertise, and pop culture critique, illuminating how better (and braver) sex ed—on and off the screen—can change hearts, relationships, and even the world.

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Up Next:
Stay tuned for Episode 2, “Olympians,” where the panel will continue their deep-dive into Heated Rivalry and its implications for modern sexuality and relationships.

Transcript

[Narrator]

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[Narrator]

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[Dr. Kelly Caspersen]

Welcome to youo Are Not Broken, the podcast that challenges everything we've been taught about midlife, hormones and sexuality. I'm Dr. Kelly Caspersen, board certified urologist, author, and a leading voice in women's sexual and hormone health. Enjoy the show.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

Hey everybody. Welcome back to the youe're Not Broken podcast. And this is the best thing I've done in like seven years on this podcast. So I am with friends who are also urologists who are also obsessed with heated rivalry. And this is the first of hopefully six episodes. So welcome everybody. Dr. Rachel Rubin, Dr. Ashley Winter, Dr. Joshua Gonzalez. Thank you for podcasting about heated rivalry with me.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

Woo hoo. Can't wait.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

Yay.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

I love that we're here. This is so exciting.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

I feel like, I feel like, you know, when you realize, like, you finally adulted successfully and like, for a lot of people that's like a certain amount of dollars in the bank. And I'm like, I'm my own boss. Nobody is telling me I can't do a huge podcast. I have friends who want a podcast about heated rivalry and I'm having fun. Like, I feel like I'm like adult level 10 at the same time.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

You made it.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

I made it.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

I think I've been a middle school boy the entire time, so this just makes perfect sense for my, you know, for what I want to do.

[Dr. Ashley Winter]

This is the most common thing. I'm now prescribing for low libido and I feel like I'm winning at adulting because I'M like, you're paying me to tell you to watch this TV show.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

And they're like, it's true. Whether they're 20s, 40s, 60s, 70s, everyone's getting heated. Rivalry as a prescription.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ashley Winter]

Oh, yeah.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

Ashley, what's the feedback? Ben, have you had. Have you seen people in like, have you. They followed up with your prescription.

[Dr. Ashley Winter]

I have not seen anybody in follow up since my prescription. So this is very important.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

They're still watching it. That's why they're like, he won't see

[Dr. Ashley Winter]

me back or all of their sexual issues have resolved and they no longer need my help.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

Basically I've been putting in our newsletter like regularly as hrt. He did rivalry therapy and instead of hormone replacement therapy. And so people are coming in having watched it because I told them to watch it. I had one day in clinic where literally a 20 year old, a 40 year old and a 70 year old and I had all the same conversations about how deliciously wonderful it is and it was the most joyful clinic day.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

Are these male patients, female patients, both

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

mostly straight women that I'm having these conversations with?

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

Yeah.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

Yeah. Have you seen anybody back in follow up?

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

Yeah. Josh, what are you seeing in your population?

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

I mean, most gay men that I see have already seen it. I think it sort of hit in the gay universe like pretty quickly because it premiered like the weekend of Thanksgiving. I'm sure there were a lot of people home with their families, like, get me out of here. What do I do? This was actually a perfect time for them to drop the show. That's when I started watching it because people were already in my circles, kind of like, have you seen this really sexy show on hbo? And so the sex definitely was the selling point. And I don't know, I mean, I got so obsessed with the show for the non sexual stuff. I think they did a great job. Jacob Tierney did a great job of grabbing your attention and being like, oh, this is hot. And then making you cry by like episode three. So like.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

And then he made you feel something.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

Exactly, exactly. But there. Yeah. I mean I would say most, most gay men are big fans of the show.

[Dr. Ashley Winter]

I will say about feedback. I have not my patients coming back but I talk with. Right. So I sublet office space from some public physical therapists and we also have a front office person. These are also straight women and their feedback is it makes them want to have gay man sex. That's what their feedback is like. Not like necessarily hornier for my partner, but I just want to be one of those Two guys living their life and having their passion and having their love story. And it's tough to not want to just, like, be and live in the world of this.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

But this is a question I asked Josh when I saw Josh at isswish. And, Kelly, you should make us all know how we all know each other. We are all urologists, every single one of us. But I asked Josh this. I said, is it gay sex or is it gay Gay sex written by a woman of what we want gay sex to be like? And that's, you know, that's My question for Dr. Gonzalez.

[Dr. Ashley Winter]

Is it accurate?

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

I mean, I think it's accurate.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

Minus the lubricant.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

Yeah. There's not a, like, a lot of, like, references to lubricant. There's no, like, mention of douching. Like, Shane is just, like, ready to go. And then bottom.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

Like, he waited, like, four years to bottom.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

But knowing. Knowing Shane, he's just ready to go all the time because he's very clean.

[Dr. Ashley Winter]

He's a perfect anus. Yeah.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

Yeah.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

He's never pooped. Hollander does not.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

It's the macrobiotic diet, right?

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

Exactly. Exactly. But I think. I think we're not used to seeing those images and scenes in popular media like that. That's, like, pretty graphic where, like, they're having, like, sex from behind and, like, flipping each other over and, like, jerking each other off and, like, that kind of stuff, even though they don't necessarily show, like, their private parts other than their butts. Like, we don't even get those innuendos in popular culture. So I think for a lot of people, not just gay men, it is titillating. It's like, you're just like, oh, I've never seen this before.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

You know, there's actually a presentation at Ishwish looking at women. This is heterosexual people, I think. But women watching porn versus men watching porn, and women tended to identify with the character, that character, like, the porn person, and the men didn't. And so, like, I was thinking about that with Heat Arrival. Like, we're all having, like, parasocial relationships with Shane and Ilya. I was talking to a friend who's in a heterosexual relationship yesterday, and he's like, yeah, that parasocial relationship is taking my wife away from me. She is, like, so into heated rivalry right now. He's like, it's real that people are identifying with these people.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

Yeah. I'm interested to know because this is a group of people that I haven't really talked to about it other than, like, a Couple closer friends of mine that are straight. But, like, what the reception among straight men have been because it hits on a lot of points that I think as a gay person, you grow up experiencing, like, the sort of innate homoeroticism of, like, professional sports or, like collegiate sports or high school sports. Right. Like, we're always, like, showering next to each other. And if you're like a little gay kid, right. Like, it can be really anxiety provoking.

[Commercial Announcer]

Right?

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

Because you're not sort of comfortable with yourself yet. You don't know what to do with all of these feelings. And so that's what I think is, like, really interesting about the show is that these guys are not like the. The Jack character from Will and Grace. Right. Or even the Will character from Will and Grace. They are, like manly, sports loving, very athletic men. And I'm just curious to know, like, how, like, the average heterosexual guy sort of like, sees how they fit into this story.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

I've talked to a few. Some of them are like, I am not interested. I don't care. I'm like, but the story, but the cinematography, but the plot, blah, blah. They're like, nope, don't want to do it. And then I've talked to a couple straight friends, men, and they're like, oh, yeah, this is great. And I stereotypically, typically, those men are pretty comfortable with their sexuality. It doesn't mean something that they're watching this.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

Right? Right. Right.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

Let's go around and say, Josh, you already said how you got into it. Rachel, tell us your story because then we can share how we all kind

[Dr. Ashley Winter]

of got into it.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

And like, if people listening by this point, this is not individual medical advice, any of this. And there's a lot of spoiler alerts that are going to happen. So spoiler alert from here on out. Watch Heater Rivalry Push pause. Watch Heat of Rivalry come back.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

Okay, friends, Rachel Rubin. I'm a urologist, just like Kelly Casperson. I did fellowship with the wonderful Ashley Winter and Josh Gonzalez in sexual medicine. He did Rivalry. I thought I was late to the viralness. Like, I watched it on the first week of December and I was like, I'm so late, I missed the boat. I can't believe I'm so late on this. And then I googled it and it came out the last week of November. And so I was one week into the craziness and I already thought I was too late. And I just, like, totally missed the boat. So it goes to the fact that I am an early adopter, but I never think That I am. I always think I'm. I'm behind. And we watched it on an airplane with my best friend from middle school. We were on an airplane from a girls weekend, and I was only interested in the sex scene, so I would take her earpod when the hot sex scenes would come up. And then I realized there were feelings and I had to watch the whole thing. And then I'm excited for Kelly to tell her story because I asked Kelly and Ashley to watch it for, I don't know, maybe months before they finally did. I'll pass it along. Maybe Ashley, you go next.

[Dr. Ashley Winter]

So for everyone listening, Ashley Winter. I am also a urologist who also specializes in sex. And I did fellowship with Rachel and Josh. And I also had some residency overlap with Josh in New York and urology. I mean, it's just a small world. Like, we all just know each other. How do you just not know everybody? So in terms of how I heard about it, it was because Kelly and Rachel and I have a group text chain, and that has been going on for, like, years at this point. And it came up, and I had no idea what it was. And this was sometime maybe the end of January. And. Rachel, I bullied you.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

You can say it. I bullied you. What the hell?

[Dr. Ashley Winter]

Have you not watched this? And I was like, clearly, I am not, like, in. I don't have no idea. And Rachel said, watch it alone first. And my husband was on the road for work one weekend, and when my kids went, watched it. And the first two episodes, I, like, I was fine with, like, I thought they were very sexy. But once it got to the third episode and it was all the emotion, I was just. I was crying desperately. Because everything we want, like, forbiddenness, longing, feeling seen, these are just the most universal truths of, like, human connection. And the struggle of these men being gay and in the world that they inhabit is the most perfect setup for experiencing those emotions very potently. And I. You guys were just right. So that was it.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

Beautiful words to hear, you.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

And I. I feel like Rachel, like, she had told me about it. It was probably a good month before I watched it because I'm. I. I very much identify as somebody who doesn't watch television. And so to me, I'm like, I need to get a subscription if I have to watch this thing. And then that's annoying because it's like $11 a month. And I. You have to remember, like, I had all these, like, massive thought issues that were roadblocking me. So I just. It was mostly like a content Bias. Not so much the subject matter bias. And so I think it just got to the point that Rachel, like, FOMO'd it so bad.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

Oh, I bullied. I full on bullied you. It's fine.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

Okay. So it got to the point where Rachel said, I won't be your friend anymore.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

I think I phrased it as, I don't ask a lot of you and I don't recommend a lot of things. And I wouldn't ask if it wasn't fundamentally important to your job as a doctor and someone who says they care about sexual medicine. Like, I actually think this is fundamentally important for us to understand the female and male libido, to understand sex, to understand libido in general and hotness and animalistic behavior. And I just think it's so delicious. Like, you can't not be a part of it.

[Dr. Kelly Caspersen]

Yeah.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

So she shamed me, basically. So that was like, fine, I'll watch it. And I was like, I'm just gonna binge this. I'm just gonna go, I'll do three of them. And then, well, another. I'll do another three. And I got through the first three and I was like. And I think Rachel had said, like, keep going. And so I just did six in one day. And it was 2:30 in the morning. I'm texting with Lara, who's my co. Creator of the Vibrator in Sydney, Australia, and she realizes it's 2:30 in the morning, west coast time. And she's like, what are you doing up? It's 2:30 in the morning. And I'm like, I'm on episod. Heated rivalry because I take my friendships very seriously.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

You're welcome.

[Dr. Ashley Winter]

Yeah.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

And so that. So I. I binged it through, went to bed at like 3:30 in the morning, was like, I need to watch this again. But I shouldn't do that. It messes with me when I go to bed at 3:30 in the morning. So then I was like, I need to watch this earlier. So I'll get the kids to watch a movie, and then I'll be up in the living room doing this. So I'm like, kids, what movie do you want to watch? And they're like, they wanted to watch Captain Underpants. And so the joke that I didn't tell them is great, because mom wants to watch Two Captains no Pants.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

Rachel, when you watched it, they were still releasing them, like, serially, right?

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

No, by the time they were all out, by the time I fully watched. But yes, but the first. But did you watch it like, with your partner? Like your husband? Yeah, together. So the first time you watched it was together?

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

Yes.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

That seems, like, very spicy.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

It was like a little. I think we had our night nurse here because we just had a baby, right? So. And we're, like, watching it in the living room and she's just, like, walking in and out of the room. And I was just like. I don't know. It was sort of like. It took me back to, like, being a kid when you would be, like, on, like, HBO or Cinemax or something, right?

[Narrator]

Yeah.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

And you would be like. You'd be like, whoa, okay. And then you would, like, wait to see if your parents were coming, and then you would watch it again. Like, that's what it felt like.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

What's the difference between erotica and porn? Like what? Like, what do you call this show? You say, like, it's a show about X, Y and Z on hbo.

[Dr. Ashley Winter]

Is this less than erotica? I don't think it's erotica. I think it's romance. I feel like it's very explicit romance. Now. It's interesting because I did go back after I watched the show and listened to the audiobooks, and the audiobooks sound to me like erotica. So I don't know if any of you guys, like, listened to it or read the actual book, but it uses this language that you very much, in my mind associate with these kind of, like, beach reads where there was, like, Fabio on the COVID from, like, the 90s. Like, it says his muscles were straining against his tight shirt. And that, to me is so just erotica, but no shade to, like, the novels. Like, the novels started this amazing phenomenon. But I think that the way they translated it was while it was graphic, it was like, in this way that was also very restrained and artful. And I think to me, that that makes. I don't know.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

I mean, there is a lot of, like, sexual language, though. Like, they don't beat around the bush. Like, are you gonna get on your knees on this dirty floor and suck my dick? Like, they're not.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

Spoiler alert.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

Yeah, they're not. You know, they're using pretty explicit language, which I think is, like, refreshing. Right. Like, I do agree with you. I think it's like a romance. But not all romance maybe needs to be flowery and lovey dovey.

[Dr. Ashley Winter]

Yeah.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

But it's also amazing how much they can get through without language at all. Like, their emotional expressions, the context, like, the texting. Like. Like, it is like, we kind of want them to talk it through. We want them to Share feelings. Like we're sitting there screaming. But one of the takes that was interesting is sort of like, women are often the emotional support animals for their straight husbands, right? That they're the ones who have to bring up the emotional conversations. They have to talk through it. And here was sort of two men having to figure out the emotional connection. And, like, they do ultimately figure it out, but, like, no one has to tell them. No one has to spell it out for them. Like, it's like almost like an equal. They're both equally bad at it and then become equally good at it in a way which I think is like, we love seeing. Because I feel like they get there even though they're neurodivergent and uncomfortable and traumatized and, you know, they have life, you know, real life challenges, but they're able to kind of break through that.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

I love that. I think in a lot of heterosexual romances, there's always like a break. Somebody gets pushed away, pushes the other one away, and then there's like the resolution. And that doesn't happen in heated rivalry. Like, it's a. It's a. Is it gonna work? Is it gonna work? But there's never this, like, bah.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

But, like, why? Why in the Olympics? Why? Because I just watched episode one and two because you made me. And I'm like, I'm not mad about it. But, like, why in the Olympics is he so rude? And like, why does that then cause a break for so long talking about Ilya? Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

Cause he's an asshole. I mean, Shane calls him that from the beginning. Like, he's just. He is an asshole. He has to learn how to be less of an asshole if he wants to make sure that Shane knows that he cares about him. But that takes the whole show. You know what I mean? That's like a part of him, probably from the way he was raised. I mean, you see his family dynamic.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

Yeah, that's where I went with it. Of like, you know when you go home for the holidays and like, shit comes out of your mouth that you're like, who the fuck am I? Right? Because it's like you are in your high school home, right? Like, like you're back at home and like this shit glitches. And like, that's what I think about is like, he's in Russia. He's got this massively overbearing dad. Brother is like strife ridden, right? Plus he just fucking lost to Latvia.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

Latvia.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

So, like, to me, I'm like, it's. Yes, yes, it's Ilia. But it's Ilya in Russia, which looks like that. Because Ilya in America is away from all of that and he's like becoming Ilya in America, but in Russia, it's just full on young limbic system. Ilia.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

Yeah.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

So is Ilya at the cottage? Like a different. A different.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

That's Canadian Ilya.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

Yeah, that's fully, fully evolved Ilya.

[Dr. Ashley Winter]

See, my difficulty with that is the supposition in the beginning in those first two episodes was that they were just dtf, right? That it was just casual. And obviously in the back of their minds it wasn't. But in my mind, based on the presumption of just it being sex and potentially meaningless, in my mind, that bad experience at the Olympics shouldn't have driven him away. It should have just made him act like a dick, but still use Shane for sex.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

Were they having sex? I guess my question. And you read the book.

[Dr. Ashley Winter]

Oh, no, they didn't have sex yet.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

No, no, no.

[Dr. Kelly Caspersen]

But.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

But Ashley read the book and that's just like Ashley to go above and beyond and out, out nerd, all of us, just for the record. But all of the time between, like, was there things happening that, like, you weren't seeing, or were these just these moments every few months or years that they were getting together? Like, did we see all of their hookups or did we only see a portion of their hookups?

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

I had that question too. But now that I've seen the series four times, the first episode is literally them months, like months apart. And texting, like, there will go like six months. And they don't text because they actually make a comment of, we haven't texted in six months. You never responded to my texts because in the beginning I was like, are they just fucking and we're not seeing all of this?

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

Right.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

But, like, I truthfully think, and that's part of the longing of all of this is like, it's literally a and a half.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

That can't be realistic to gay life, Josh.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

I mean, I don't know. I've never been a closeted hockey player. Not in this world, at least professionally. I was a closeted football player in high school, but way different.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

Way different.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

Tell us more.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

But never went professional. Yeah, No, I mean, I didn't come out till I moved to New York. So, like, it was after college.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

Okay, so I have a question for you. There was a moment when they hooked up and it was so magical and beautiful. And the first time. And you saw this facial expression from Shane that was this combination of I'm so happy. Happy and so tortured all at the same time. Right? Because you can't share it with anybody. There's no one to share it with. You're so shame and guilted because you don't want to be this way. And yet you're also, like, so happy because you just lived out your, like, wildest fantasy with the hottest hockey player ever.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

Are you Talking about Room 1410, first episode with the blowjobs?

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

I will say, I think that a lot of gay men can identify with what Shane went through, meaning that, like, you know, this is somehow. Right. And that this is what you've been waiting for. And also, like, you're saying it's also the first time that you have to fully admit that you're gay to yourself. Right? Because up until that point, you've never realized it with another person. And so there's, like, shame and joy at the same time. So I think they depicted that really well on the show. And, yeah, I mean, I had that experience with, like, the first person that I hooked up with after coming out in New York. Like, I was like, oh. Like. Because I had dated some. I dated girls in high school and college, and, like, I never felt like

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

I emotionally were any of them, like Rose.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

I'm just kidding.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

Keep going, keep going, keep going.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

No, none of that. No, that's a good question. Because I thought that the relationship between Jane and Rose was, hands down, the reason that I loved the show the most.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

It's amazing.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

It's the most incredible relationship. And I think that I was fully ugly crying with my husband watching it, because I think every gay man has been in a situation with a female friend where they realize that this isn't gonna work like that. In a different world, in a different universe, if I could figure out a way to be into you, we could be maybe soulmates. But there's something about me that will never let that happen. And there's a real tragedy to that. And so I think that the way they depict that as, like, really, really incredible. But so, yeah, I think most gay men at some point in their life have usually, like, early on when they're not out, have had a relationship with a woman that is like Shane's relationship with Rose. And it's a really special relationship, but it's also a really heartbreaking relationship.

[Dr. Ashley Winter]

I remember in that exact moment when she's like, I'm going to force you to be friends with me, and I must be in your life. I was, like, relieved somehow. Like, I was so relieved. That she was just still gonna be there for him, I guess, because up until this moment, right, his only person he's been able to tell about this is Ilya. And obviously that's just so profoundly wrought. And so this person would still kind of, like, love him and be there and, like, be there with him in this secret was profoundly relieving. I couldn't really explain it.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

And she came across very strong with that. Like, she kind of forced the, like, listen, this is a friendship that's gonna happen. Right? But had she not done that, he doesn't have in him what he needed to develop that relationship. Like, she kind of had to, like, be like, we're friends now in order to actually make that work. And then clearly, you know, by the end of the episodes, they're texting and he's sharing things. I don't know if he actually shared that Ilya was coming to the cottage with Rose. They were texting, though, when they were there. Yeah, we're skipping it. We're skipping ahead.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

You gotta keep us on track, Kelly. You gotta keep us on track.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

Keep us back on episode one. So episode one, they meet. It was good to watch it again because they were like, when did this actually start happening? And they're like, summer before rookie year. And so to watch it again and be like, okay, when did this actually start happening? They were actually at. It was like an International Cup.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ashley Winter]

Yeah.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

So they meet for the first time, December 2008. And then that summer is the draft. And so Shane is the number two pick. Roseanoff is, like, kind of rubbing him with his hands. I noticed, like, Roseanoff was actually, like, you know, number one with his hand, but was kind of rubbing on Shane's hand. And you see Ilya's dad for the first time, and he calls him lazy. And the cinematography of the draft scene of, like, them seeing each other, like, there's. The cinematography of this entire show is. Is insanely powerful and so good.

[Dr. Ashley Winter]

When you look at the first episode, I think probably one of the most artful scenes is that one in the shower. Because you have to navigate that so exquisitely to show that there was.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

Right.

[Dr. Ashley Winter]

Because if you don't show that perfectly, it could be somebody basically assaulting the other person.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

Right.

[Dr. Ashley Winter]

Because if you're just in a locker room and somebody doesn't consent to. To see you stroking yourself, that's creepy. And how you navigate showing this progression from just showering and trying to be kind of avoidant in this space to demonstrating consensual arousal is very Hard. And they did it without actually showing penises. I was actually astounded by how hard that was to do because in the book, which I recently listened to, they're saying, like, before Ilya starts stroking himself, he sees that Shane is becoming aroused. And so that's like not wanting to be aroused, but uncontrollably becoming aroused. And that's kind of that way you kind of consenting. Right. And moving it to this next level. And they have to not be able to show that and make that progression. Which, again, like, you know, it's interesting, you, Josh, talking about being gay in these spaces that can be so uncomfortably intimate but are supposed to not be. I thought that was one of the most fascinating things about the first episode.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

Yeah. And it goes back to kind of what you were saying, even with the actors. Like, so much of that back and forth was through their eyes. Right. And their gaze and their sort of facial expressions. There's not a lot of talking that happens in that scene.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

There's actually a prolonged silence.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

Yeah.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

Same as the scene in the gym, Right. Where they're like, literally, ridiculously bike riding in this heavy breathing. Moment of foreplay. Right. It's like this big foreplay scene and they're not speaking, but there's that character of their facial expressions. There's the music character, there's the cinematography. But just so much of the show is just their facial expressions that are masterful.

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[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

I just always wonder, like, how does Ilya know where Shane is? I mean, clearly the biking scene, it's late at night. It's after the draft. They're in different hotels. They didn't even talk during the draft. You know, cocktail hour. And it's like, maybe that one was a fluke. Maybe it was like, oops, we were just both working out at 11:30pm or whenever it was. But then, like, you know, later on in the show, Ilya finds Shane down at the beach.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

Right?

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

Like, Ilya's like, finding where Shane is. Oh, he found him in the. He found him in the bathroom after the awards season.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

Yeah. Yep.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

Do you think he has a Tracker on him.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

Oh, I don't want it to be. I don't want it to be creepy.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

I'm just saying, like, this guy's paying attention to Shane, as aloof as he comes across. It's like this guy knows where this guy is. And in the, in the first episode after they shoot their hockey commercial, Shane's talking to his mom about having to wear Reeboks, right? And then he goes into the show. So it's like he didn't even go straight to the shower. And Shane's Alia's like, following him. I think the other thing about the shower scene in episode one is like, we're never in the shower when men are showering with each other, right? And so to watch this happen, it's so foreign to us. We're like, what are the rules? How does this go down? Does this ever happen? Like, it's just such an interesting thing for us because we don't have any context.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

That's so funny. I never thought about that.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

Tell us, Josh, what is group showering like, for dudes?

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

Well, so, okay, so when I played high school football in our, like, home, my high school's locker room, it was like the most homoerotic shower you could imagine. It was like one pole. Well, there was four of them, but it was a pole with four spouts around. So you would shower actually looking at each other.

[Dr. Ashley Winter]

That's crazy.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

And then when we played away games, they were sort of the showers that you see in the show where they're sort of all on a wall, but you're still. There's no dividers, you're just one big room. And like there were. I remember when I played high school football, there was this guy who is straight, was straight back then, who like, I mean, you're 15, like the wind blows and you get aroused, right? Like, I don't think if you get partially aroused like in a situation like that, it necessarily means you're gay. But anyway, he started to, I guess become somewhat aroused and he got like hazed for it. He basically, like, people were like making fun of him and hitting him and being calling him gay and like all the slurs associated with being gay. And like, I don't even think he was gay. He was just like a 15 year old guy, you know what I mean? Showering, like naked in front of a bunch of other people. So I guess like guys, because that's just the way that we like do gym and like grow up. I guess I never really thought about like, women don't like, bathe next to each other.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

I was just thinking, like, I was an athlete and we never showered at the same time. Like it wasn't like, something. I don't know.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

What was your sport, Rachel?

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

I was a gymnast. We did not shower together.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

I didn't know you were a gymnast.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

I don't think I knew that either.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

Do you have excellent balance? To this day, no.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

But I was state champion in 1997.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

You were a state champion gymnast in what?

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

What category or what event?

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

I won the floor exercise, and we were team champions in 1997.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

Wow.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

Yes, I was very good at gymnastics, and then I broke my back and had to quit.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

You broke your back?

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

God, yeah. Stress fractures. Anyway, not. Not that interesting. I'd rather talk about gay hockey sex. But, yes, I did have a. I had a spinal fusion at age 14.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

Oh, my gosh.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

Age 14. You're just repeating everything Rachel's saying.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

But thank God, because then I went into academic things, and then I became all of your best friends.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

Like, meant to be. Meant to be.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

I put my intensity to sport. My hype, my hyper focus. From sport into penis surgery.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

There's a lot of, like, I don't want to say, like. I would say previous, previous nearly professional ballerinas who are surgeons. Like, it is a thing.

[Dr. Ashley Winter]

My best friend was a. Was a college gymnast. Like, she's a surgeon. A breast surgeon.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

I mean, she's better than me in every way. Just so you know.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

For the record, going back to season one, they are sharing a water bottle after they did some biking. My gut on this is that Ilya already knows what he's doing. Ilya's been around the block.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

He knows.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

He wants seducer. He's seducer. He's the seducer.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

He's the alpha. He's the. He's the dom.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

And I think Shane's clueless.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

He's the top. Let's just be honest.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

Okay, so top. Okay, can we talk about this? Actually, this is actually interesting because I think a lot of people listening, or no one's actually going to be listening, but if anyone is listening, I think people.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

I have a big podcast right now.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

I know, but, like. But this is now, like, many minutes. This is 34 minutes in, and we barely talked about anything yet.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

They're gonna fucking love this episode.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

Can you talk us through Tops, bottoms, Alpha, doms. Like, Ilia is this alpha. He tells him what to do. It's so hot. He just bosses him around. But it's also not in a dangerous, creepy. It's in a Very consensual way. So talk our audience, because I don't know about all the, you know, all of those interactions that we see.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

Yeah, I mean, I think that it makes sense in the context of their relationship because I think Ilia can sense from Shane that he needs to be sort of helped out of the closet. Whereas Ilya, like, it's implied, right, that he's bisexual, that he's hooked up with men. He hooked up with his, like, coach's son. Right. So he has this experience, and I think that he takes on this role of being the dominant person in the relationship because he knows that that's, in a way, what an athlete like Shane needs to explore this side of him. That's the sense that I get. And then I just say top, because, like, from the beginning, he's the one that's, like, penetrating Shane. There is, like, a reference in episode, I think, in the first episode actually, where they're making, like, bets, right? And he's like, if you win this, then, or if I win this, I get to fuck you and do this. And he's like, well, what do I get if I win? He's like, the same thing. So he's like, offering to bottom for Shane. But I don't think that it comes to be.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

Are Topps always Topps their entire life? Is this like.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

No, no, no, no.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

It's like relationship dependent or like phases of the moon dependent.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

I think it's individual. I. The rigidity of those categories is kind of silly.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

People talk about them like they're a fixed date.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

And some people are very like, I only top. I think if you probably pulled most gay men, they would fall under the verse category. They might have a preference. Like, they might, like, prefer to top more, prefer to bottom more. But depending on the relationship they're in or the sexual situation that they're in that they may try the opposite.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

Are we in a safe space where there's no stupid questions?

[Juan Naula]

Yeah.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

Asking for a friend. So heterosexual people learn how to have sex by, like, Hollywood and then, like, porn that they might happen to find. And I would say Hollywood parents, porn, first boyfriend. And that's not setting anybody up for success. Like, women hardly have orgasms, let's be honest, right? So our sex ed sucks. What's Gay Sex Edition?

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

Oh, zero. Gay sex ed is like porn that you watch when you're younger. Trying to, like, figure it out the first time you have anal sex and then learning from your friends how to, like, make that better. Like, the first time is, like, never gonna Be good because there's just like a lot of prep that is involved. But I think gay men in general, like, teach each other how to be better tops or be, be better boss.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

You got a leg up on the women for that one. Like, women don't.

[Dr. Kelly Caspersen]

I don't.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

Women don't talk to each other about it.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

That's true.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

It's kind of this like assumed expertise that nobody has.

[Dr. Ashley Winter]

It's interesting though. I lost my virginity to a guy who was a virgin, so both of us didn't know what we were doing. Like, I literally, he couldn't get in me. And I remember we thought maybe I didn't have a vagina and I was 20.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

Like, Ashley, you are not broken, I promise.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

Ashley's like, obviously the problem is no vagina.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

My vagina fell out.

[Dr. Ashley Winter]

Blind ending vulva.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

Like, I, I always thought you were Barbie, Ashley. I did think you were Barbie when I first met you.

[Dr. Ashley Winter]

But like, I mean, what, like, if you have two gay virgins, like, that must be so hard. I mean, obviously you know, you have an anus because you've pooped, so I guess it's like.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

But then there's poop involved, so. Right. So like, that's. If you're not. That's the thing is like, that's, that's. I think that is missing a little bit from the interactions between Shane and Ilya that like, like we were saying earlier, like, Shane is ready to go, which, like, I think I, I'm not sure that like in the real world someone like Shane who was like a closeted athlete would like have known to like anally douche before having sex with a nine inch dick, which Ilya supposedly has. Right. So that's also like, not something that like most people can just jump into with anal sex.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

What's nine? Where's nine inches? This is what, eight and a half piece of paper?

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

Yeah, that's probably hold up the other side of the piece of paper that you held up the, you held up the 11 inch.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

That's 11 inches.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

Oh, yeah, sorry.

[Dr. Kelly Caspersen]

Good point.

[Dr. Ashley Winter]

Have you guys seen the new Game of Thrones spin off?

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

No.

[Dr. Ashley Winter]

There's like a humongous penis in it.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

Wait, so can we go back? So a lot of the listeners are going to want to know about what does douching look like? What is anal? What are the poop conversations like? Because women are tend to be very uncomfortable talking about poop at all, let alone in a sexual setting. And so there are a lot of anally curious people who are listening and wondering Is that a place, a pathway of pleasure? And so what kind of conversations can you have for our listeners about. About that?

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

I mean, I think, yes, everyone should try it because there's definitely a lot of nerve endings down there. It can be incredibly pleasurable for any type of body, I would say. You don't need to go crazy with douching. So douching basically is using water or some sort of solution to kind of rinse out the fecal material from the rectum. It's something that like, gay men learn over time, I think. And there are people who prefer to bottom or identify solely as bottoms who have like a whole system down. Like, I have a very good friend who has like a regimented system. Like, he's gonna bottom. Like he's changing his diet the day of, he's douching with a certain amount of water. He does like, belly rubs. He's got this whole system down. That's not most people. And honestly, it doesn't probably have to be that involved. Like, you really just need to use enough solution or water to clean out the rectum, which is not that long of a tube. If you use too much, you can actually. And it goes past the sigmoid, you can actually cause stool from the colon to come down into the rectum and then it gets to be a big old mess. So I would say tips for bottoming for the first time would be, you know, just use a little bit of water to clean out stool from the rectum.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

What does that mean? Are you using like a Fleets enema syringe? Are you using like.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

Yeah, so it's like a bulb syringe.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

Okay.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

But you can get shower attachments too.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

Yeah, they do have shower attachments, but then you have to be careful, right? Because if it's shooting too much water up, then that stuff's gonna come down. So I think being too aggressive with it can cause more problems than if you just do like a single bulb. And then lube is like your best friend. Right. Like, we talk about lube all the time for penal vaginal sex, but when you're having anal sex, it's a lot tighter. A lot more can tear. There's a lot of friction that needs to be accounted for.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

Nothing's self lubricating.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

There's a little bit of like mucus down there, but it's not going to be enough to have sex. So silicone lube is often better for anal sex because it lasts longer and it provides more of a slippery surface.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

The first lube I ever used Consistently was gun oil, which is very popular in the gay community. And I got that from my gay friend. He's like, kelly, this is what you need.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

Yeah.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

And I'm like, oh, obviously silicone, obviously superior.

[Dr. Ashley Winter]

I mean, it's also like, you don't have to have full on penis and anus penetration to like explore eroticism around the anus. Right? You can use fingers, you can use tongue. You can use like toys, obviously, like Shane.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

Shane has a toy, right? He talks about it.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

Yeah, right. We don't know what color it is.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

We don't know the color.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

And we also know he called it a thing. I have a thing.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

Right, right.

[Dr. Ashley Winter]

He has a thing.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

How is anybody supposed to know what a thing is?

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

I have a thing. Well, people always use innuendo, right? Like people, like couples have all their, like language of like, you know, what do you call your period? What do you call masturbation? What do you call sex? What do you call, right? Everyone, you have this language, this like hidden language. You can't use actual grown up words.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

In honoring the sex ed component of this podcast, what is the average male penis length? Erect. It's like four and a half or five inches.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

Five and a half? I think.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

Think it's five and a half?

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

Yeah, it's like five, three to five, five. Half of the paper.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

Rachel folds her paper in the pocketbook. Guide to urology. Remember that it fit in your pocket. They had a graph of average penis size in there. I remember that.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

Oh, really?

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

I remember showing somebody that, be like, see, you're above average, you're fine.

[Dr. Ashley Winter]

I mean, I think what you can learn from this TV show is that at least to women, probably the really nicely defined ass size is maybe more important than the penis size. I'm just gonna.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

I didn't realize how important it was actually.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

Yeah, a good butt.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

Butts are very important.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

Gays have known this for years.

[Dr. Ashley Winter]

Oh, I know. They always have the best butts.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

I actually saw a comedian talking about that recently. He was like, where do straight men get off having nice asses? What are they gonna do with that?

[Dr. Ashley Winter]

It's so funny, actually. So before this filming today I am in the office with pelvic floor physical therapists. I was like, hey, when you watch this show through your PT lens, what did you take away from it? And my colleague was like, they have very pronounced anterior pelvic tilt. And she was like. It was like, that is so interesting. And she's like, yeah, I couldn't stop thinking about that.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

The little belly stuck out. I Noticed that a lot.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ashley Winter]

Yes. And the butt is, like, lifted, and they're doing this, like, thing. And I was like, like, that is so. But it probably also made their butts look better. But it was like. But, yeah, that might be more important than penis size.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

I haven't had an intimacy coordinator on the podcast yet, but it's a goal. It's a goal for me. I just bought a book from somebody's. I actually met somebody who was married to an intimacy coordinator when I was in New York for the book tour. So I'm like, I need to have an intimacy. For people who don't know, intimacy coordinators are the people that television shows and movies hire to have on set to make sure everybody's, like, appropriately clothed as they can be and comfortable with whatever. Because this is all acting, right? And so that's what an intimacy coordinator does. Which I think they're pretty new to the industry. Yeah.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

I was going to say they've only existed for, like, 10 years.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

Yeah, they're pretty new.

[Dr. Ashley Winter]

This is like, post. Me, too.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

Probably.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

Yeah, probably to prevent egregious harm. Okay.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

One of the first sex scene, right? The first blowjob, he does not ejaculate in his mouth, right? Like, he. Like, room 1410. Like, right in 1410, Ilia ejaculates outside of Shane's mouth, which I think is just lovely. Like, a lovely gesture. And then he swallow. He himself swallows. And I also think that is an incredible gesture. And Shane says this thing. You didn't have to. Right? Sort of like this embarrassing. Like, you didn't have to do that. I'm. This is gross. This is disgusting. I can't believe you did this. You. You didn't have to. And his answer was like, I don't mind. Like, I don't mind. But, like, just like every woman, I think, has sort of experienced this feeling. Like, right when he. Sorry. He ejaculates, and he's like, gets up to leave as a joke, right? Like this. Like, well, I'm done, so goodbye. And I feel like every woman was like, that's a familiar feeling. Like, I've been in this situation. And then Shane's like, what the hell? And he's like, oh, you think I'm an asshole? And then he goes. And then he swallows and pushing him out of his comfort zone, but in a consensual way that is not rapey. And, like, just really, like, almost like, no, no, I want do this. I want to be here. You know, I think we talk about the women so often. Do not want oral sex. They feel like they're gross. They feel like they're disgusting. They're like, oh, it's been two minutes. I didn't orgasm. So, you know, we can be done now and sort of this idea of like, take as long as you want. Ladies, like, they're happy to be there. They're happy to be in the room. They're happy, you know, being proud of sort of that experience. And I think that showed it in a way that women were like, I'm curious about this.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

Yeah. And do we. Do we think? I read that as, like, Shane wasn't ready to swallow his load.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

Oh, no.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

I read it as Ilia, like, respected him enough to sort of not do that.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

Oh, okay.

[Dr. Ashley Winter]

From the book, it was that Shane wasn't ready to do anything.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

I mean, he's brand new at all of this. Yeah.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

And he's got. I mean, he's got a lot of. A lot of shame. I mean, he's got to get over that.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

He's got a lot of shame.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

But as soon as he walks in the door after, like, kissing for two seconds, he goes, was right for the bj, Right.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

Like, well, he's been waiting a long time.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

He's ready to go. Like, very ready to go.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

Yeah.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

He knew how to unbuckle that. That pant buckle.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

I think the other. The other, like, thing that the. The film did is they showed them both being interviewed for hockey, Right. And Ilya is this, like, cocky. I didn't say 40, I said 50 shots. Like, he's super cocky. But then they show Shane, number one, Shane speaking two languages on his interview. And he's so confident.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

Right.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

Like, they really allow, like, he's not this, like, passive. Let Ilia just take all. Like, he's a very confident man, and he kind of gets to be not that at this. I don't know. I just thought it was beautiful how they showed both of them being interviewed for hockey and showed them being such different people.

[Dr. Ashley Winter]

Well, I think that's also what is so compelling about it, because many people want to be a confident, strong, independent person in their life, but then in their interview, intimate world, they maybe want to be dominated or, like, slightly dominated or. You know, there is such a duality to so many people. And typically when you're watching a movie or romance or whatever, it's this, like, passive, feminine, accepting character who is also that way in an intimate situation. And that is, like, not real, Right? It's not real.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

That's.

[Dr. Ashley Winter]

That's the only way we can Be existing between our public and our private existence. And I think that actually, I mean, I know it goes for both men and women. I mean, I've definitely physically been with hetero men who like very much wanted to be less dominant person. And, and it was weird because as a female you're like, not really. I don't know, it's not what you're socialized to do.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

Right.

[Dr. Ashley Winter]

But like, you realize that there are people that like even hetero men who like crave that, that to be controlled in a, in an erotic environment.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

I think you see that a lot in the modern world because like women will be like, am I still a feminist if I want to be taken and dominated and actually have like a power play in the bedroom? And all, all the sex. Sex were like, yeah, of course. Like still go be the badass you everywhere else. And it's okay to play this role in the bedroom.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

Well, I think the act of choosing that role is the feminist part of it.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

Right.

[Dr. Ashley Winter]

Okay.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ashley Winter]

Yes.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

Nice. Okay, so we're wrapping up one. Here's the question. When does Scott Hunter start to know? Because what's happening? We've had room 1410. Four months later, we're in Nashville, the All Star game. We got the feet touching under the table, right? And so they do the, they do the speed shoot off puck thing. And so Scott Hunter's watching them all. Ilya skates by Scott and shane and says is 1221-1221 right next to Scott Hunter. So my having watched it multiple times, my gut is Scott's known for a very long time. What do you think? What does Scott Hunter actually know about this relationship?

[Dr. Ashley Winter]

I don't think he knows anything. Yeah, I think he's a dork. Like, he doesn't.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

You think he's clueless? I think he's a very aware gay man.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

I mean, he goes for Kip, so I don't think he's. I mean, he went for the smoothie guy, so I don't know how like

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

he's also wrapped up in his own sort of Shane and coming out narrative that I'm not sure that he has space in his head to worry about. What's going on with Shane and Ilia.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

Fast forward a couple of episodes. I forget now what episode it is when Scott's playing against Shane and Shane is kind of a dick to him afterwards. And he's like, oh, you talk like him now too?

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

Oh, I just saw that. It's like, I think beginning of episode three. Yeah, well. Cause he does make some Comment about. He calls him Emory, calls him your boy Rozanoff. Yeah, Your boy Rosenoff. He's like, what do you mean by that? He's like, I didn't mean anything by that.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

I think Scott Hunter knows. Let's vote. Who thinks Scott Hunter knows?

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

I think he knows, actually. I sort of think he knows too. Can we. Can you tell me what's the name of the really boring. Actually, I do want to talk about this, but we could talk about it in season two, the really boring friend that every scene is so boring with the wife and she's like, my wife wants to cook for you. And they kiss all the kids and the hetero friends. Who's the heterosexual? What's his name?

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

The vanilla guy.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

He's so boring.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

Whose friend is he?

[Dr. Kelly Caspersen]

What is his name?

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

Shane's friend on the metros.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

And he is the wife. And he's like, my wife wants to cook for you and be the first person to cook for you. And then he's got all the kids and he swears he's a swear jar.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

What is that guy's name? I don't remember.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

But it's sort of like, embarrassing because it is this play on the straight man and the straight man friend and just how boring his life is and how boring he is and how unique. I don't know. I just like every scene. I just want to fast forward of like, I. It's so boring.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

Well, and I mean, to that point, like, if you asked him, are you friends, Are you good friends with Shane? He would be like, yes, we're good friends. He comes over for dinner and Shane's keeping it hidden very well. But, like. And he does ask about a former girlfriend. Like, he does try to kind of get to know Shane, but Shane just kind of stays.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

Is he the same guy who always shares the hotel room with Shane?

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

Oh, it's a good question. I think so. Yeah.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

Which my, my question is, you're perfect. Like, I've seen the inside of your houses. You're professional hockey players. You have money. Why is your team making you fly coat? Sharing rooms and, and share rooms. Like, they only did that for the television show. Of course.

[Dr. Ashley Winter]

And because, especially because whenever they're at these, like, award ceremonies and when it's convenient and they need to hook up, they all have their own hotel rooms.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

Penthouse hotel rooms.

[Dr. Ashley Winter]

Yeah, exactly. And then half the time they're sharing, like a regular, like, double bedroom.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

Like, wait, should we talk before we finish episode one? Should we talk about, like, the final scene with them?

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

And, like, did Nobody look up that guy's name.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

Oh, no.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

He's so boring. No, but nobody cares. He's so boring.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

The hetero friend. Sorry, Josh.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

No, we should talk about, like, the scene on the roof, right, when they're in tuxedos. And that's the end of episode one, right?

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

Yep.

[Dr. Ashley Winter]

Yep.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

So we're in Vegas at the award show. Shane wins Rookie of the Year. It made me very uncomfortable.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

Yeah.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

Hayden, Hayden, Hayden, Hayden.

[Juan Naula]

Yeah.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

I mean, I just think, like, there's so many times. It's the first time in their relationship where it seems like it's not gonna work out to me. And what do you guys think?

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

I think Ilya is like, Ilya in his head. He's headed back to Russia right after that. So again, he's kind of going back into his limbic system. Russia. Fuck it. Nobody cares about me. Because he says to. He says to Shane, this is. It's not all about you.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

Yeah, yeah.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

It's kind of a dick thing to say because he just won Rookie of the Year.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

Speaking of being a dick is every time Ilya loses, so he loses the Rookie of the Year, he loses the Olympics. Like, every time he loses, he becomes an asshole. And, like, it's like. Because he knows he's gonna get the beating from his father, and, like, he's gonna get, like, mother Rush is mad at him and, like. And then he takes it out on Shane every single time. And it was so. That scene is so sad because Shane just wanted Ilya to be there and to, like, be proud of him and to, like, be happy. Just like the way when he wins the cup, like, Shane is sitting there smiling, you know, with tears in his eyes, and he's so happy. And, like, Ilya can't be happy for other people because he's selfish and traumatized and gonna get beaten by Mother Rushmore.

[Dr. Ashley Winter]

Self preservation, definitely.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

I think that scene is a power dynamic. Like, I saw such a power exchange back and forth. Like, Shane comes into Ilya's space and starts, like, kind of drunk bullying him because he did just take a bunch of shots with Scott and team, right? So, like, he does kind of come up a little drunk bullying, and Ilya's not in the mood. And then Shane, like, sexy advances Ilya turns him down. Then he does the handshake. Like, there's so much power.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

Move, move.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

And then Ilya kisses him. And then Shane gets mad. Like, the whole thing is just, like, nobody's, like, getting on top of anybody there. Not metaphorically, unfortunately, and metaphorically. So do you Guys, remember when you watched that episode for the first time? Like, when that kind of left you with the cliffhanger where you're like, I've

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

seen it too many times to remember what it used to be like.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

I didn't take notes the first time.

[Dr. Ashley Winter]

I watched the first two episodes back to back. So I didn't have any feeling of like. Like it's sitting with me because I just jumped into the next one.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

So I did the same.

[Dr. Ashley Winter]

Yeah, I mean, I know we'll get to it later, but definitely, of all the episodes that sat with me the most was, like, the one that ends at the nightclub. And we can get to that later. But, like, that was, like, insane. Like, I was so amped up after that and, like, then I put it down for the night and I could not sleep.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

That might be the best scene of any TV show ever, ever, ever.

[Dr. Ashley Winter]

And when I rewatch it, every single millisecond of that, that scene is genius.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

The other day, my seven year old, My seven year old was going, all the things she says, all the things she says. And I was like. I was like, how do you know that song? He goes, mom, you've been singing it non stop for weeks. So awesome. That's amazing.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

All right, let's wrap episode one. We'll. We'll cut it so we can go pee because we're all urologists and bladder care is very important. But to the listeners, thanks for sticking with us. Season one, I mean, I don't know. We're gonna have a blast. Episode one through six, so watch it if you haven't yet, because buckle up. It's my podcast. I'm gonna do six episodes on this. So thank you everybody for joining us and we'll talk soon for season two, named Olympians.

[Dr. Joshua Gonzalez]

Episode two.

[Host (likely Dr. Kelly Caspersen)]

Episode two. Yes, Episode two, Olympians.

[Dr. Rachel Rubin]

Dun dun dun.

[Dr. Kelly Caspersen]

If you found this episode funny, helpful, insightful, please take a moment to follow, rate and share the youe Are Not Broken podcast with someone who might need this conversation too. That support is how this information reaches more people. And thank you for courses, books and my monthly membership and the Caspersen clinic information. Visit KellyCaspersonMD.com this podcast and all content from Dr. Kelly Casperson is intended for educational and informational purposes only, and this is not a substitute for individual medical coaching or psychological advice, diagnosis or treatment. Always seek the guidance of your qualified healthcare professional with any questions you may have regarding your health. Never disregard or delay medical advice because of something you've heard on this or other podcasts. Thanks for being here and remember, you are not broken.